Homosexuals and homosexuality are natural and created by God, thus permissible within Islam, a discussion concluded here Thursday.
Moderate Muslim scholars said there were no reasons to reject homosexuals under Islam, and that the condemnation of homosexuals and homosexuality by mainstream ulema and many other Muslims was based on narrow-minded interpretations of Islamic teachings.
Siti Musdah Mulia of the Indonesia Conference of Religions and Peace cited the Koran's al-Hujurat (49:3) that one of the blessings for human beings was that all men and women are equal, regardless of ethnicity, wealth, social positions or even sexual orientation.
"There is no difference between lesbians and nonlesbians. In the eyes of God, people are valued based on their piety," she told the discussion organized by nongovernmental organization Arus Pelangi.
"And talking about piety is God's prerogative to judge," she added.
"The essence of the religion (Islam) is to humanize humans, respect and dignify them."
Musdah said homosexuality was from God and should be considered natural, adding it was not pushed only by passion. Mata Air magazine managing editor Soffa Ihsan said Islam's acknowledgement of heterogeneity should also include homosexuality.
He said Muslims needed to continue to embrace ijtihad (the process of making a legal decision by independent interpretation of the Koran and the Sunnah) to avoid being stuck in the old paradigm without developing open-minded interpretations.
Another speaker at the discussion, Nurofiah of the Nahdlatul Ulama (NU), said the dominant notion of heterogeneity was a social construction, leading to the banning of homosexuality by the majority.
"Like gender bias or patriarchy, heterogeneity bias is socially constructed. It would be totally different if the ruling group was homosexuals," she said.
Other speakers said the magnificence of Islam was that it could be blended and integrated into local culture.
"In fact, Indonesia's culture has accepted homosexuality. The homosexual group in Bugis-Makassar tradition called Bissu is respected and given a high position in the kingdom.
"Also, we know that in Ponorogo (East Java) there has been acknowledgement of homosexuality," Arus Pelangi head Rido Triawan said.
Condemnation of homosexuality was voiced by two conservative Muslim groups, the Indonesian Ulema Council (MUI) and Hizbut Thahir Indonesia (HTI).
"It's a sin. We will not consider homosexuals an enemy, but we will make them aware that what they are doing is wrong," MUI deputy chairman Amir Syarifuddin said.
Rokhmat, of the hardline HTI, several times asked homosexual participants in attendance to repent and force themselves to gradually return to the right path.
WHO ARE THESE IDIOTS???
Help me to escape from this existence
I yearn for an answer... can you help me?
I'm drowning in a sea of abused visions and shattered dreams
In somnolent illusion... I'm paralyzed
So desperate to be accepted by the West that they'll make anything halal.
Siti Musdah Mulia received a LOT of fundings from US and European Aid agencies. I know this for a fact.
She is one of those "scholars" whom Allah SWT warns us against: they would try misinterpret and sell scriptural verses for peanuts.
Majority of Indonesian Muslims are moderate, but not including people like Siti Musdah Mulia, she is liberal.
And easy to understand if Rido Triawan defend homosexuality, he is from "Arus Pelangi", or "Rainbow Stream" in English. Easy to understand what organization this is.
"In fact, Indonesia's culture has accepted homosexuality. The homosexual group in Bugis-Makassar tradition called Bissu is respected and given a high position in the kingdom.
"Also, we know that in Ponorogo (East Java) there has been acknowledgement of homosexuality," Arus Pelangi head Rido Triawan said.
There are hundreds cultures in Indonesia. Rido must be know about it, and he must be know too that homosexuality is not acceptable in Indonesia.
Bissu are "priests without gender" in pre-Islam animism belief in Bugis-Makasar. Actually the Bissu are supposed to curb their sexual desire, but many of them had 'boyfriends' that called "to boto". But after Islam came to Bugis-Makasar, this animism belief and its Bissu is not acceptable again.
In Ponorogo (East Java) there are martial art masters who called "warok". But different than martial art masters in China or Japan, warok use magic to make them powerful. This magic requires them to not doing sexual relationship with female. So, they had "gemblak", young male who became their 'wives'. But now warok are not much like in the past, also there are warok who have real females as their wives.
But other Indonesia's cultures do not recognize homosexuality.
Although Indonesia is the country that has largest number of Muslims, homosexual people are exist there. However, their movement is not so free like in the West. Heterosexual people can accept gays,lesbians, and (especially) transvestites to live among them, but cannot tolerate homosexual activities. Anybody knows?, the little Obama's nanny is transvestites.
However, some of them want to get bigger freedom like in The West. And they approach the liberal 'Muslims' because those liberal ...... I think everyone here knows how those liberal are.
He it is Who sends blessings on you, as do His angels, that He may bring you out from the depths of Darkness into Light: and He is Full of Mercy to the Believers. [Quran {33:43}] www.QuranicAudio.com www.Quran.com
Although Indonesia is the country that has largest number of Muslims, homosexual people are exist there.
Homosexual people exist everywhere. It is only a matter of how accepted they are and how much they have to hide their sexual orientation and pretend to be heterosexual. In some places they are accepted openly, can marry, and carry little stigma or bigotry against them. In other places they are hated and even killed.
I thought it was hillarious when Ahmadinijad (or however you spell it) answered a question about homosexuals in Iran by saying "Oh, we don't have homosexuals in Iran". Apparently they have to go so far underground there that people don't even think they exist.
I know. But what I meant was, public know they are homosexual. Few of men who I know personally are gays. I am not close to those gays, but I have few transvestites friends.
Apparently they have to go so far underground there that people don't even think they exist.
That would be acceptable yes.. do you know about anyone's sex life here?
I think it is funny you suggest that we have to not only acknowledge but accommodate people who define themselves by their sexual acts...
This is normal to you? That's how you want to be perceived in meetings, or when you got a job interview or when you're sitting in a restaurant?
Are you for real?
Sorry for being off topic but wasn't there a hadith stating that gays will have a mosque of their own?
Sorry if I twisted some words. I tried finding it on google but I couldn't.
Homosexual people exist everywhere. It is only a matter of how accepted they are and how much they have to hide their sexual orientation and pretend to be heterosexual. In some places they are accepted openly, can marry, and carry little stigma or bigotry against them. In other places they are hated and even killed.
I thought it was hillarious when Ahmadinijad (or however you spell it) answered a question about homosexuals in Iran by saying "Oh, we don't have homosexuals in Iran". Apparently they have to go so far underground there that people don't even think they exist.
To be fair, Ahmadinejad was joking. He was not treated with respect when a university invited him for a talk. He was joking when he said Iran has no homosexuals, I don't think he took some of the questions seriously. In another interview, he said acknowledged gay people exist in Iran.
I think most hate comes from men. Most heterosexual men find it gross to have sex with another man. Some guys get paranoid and start to think everyone gay man will fall for them and will try to have sex with them. Sounds like a case of narcissism. They also assume most gay men will engage in anal sex, but this is not true.
format_quote Originally Posted by ßlµêßêll
That would be acceptable yes.. do you know about anyone's sex life here?
I think it is funny you suggest that we have to not only acknowledge but accommodate people who define themselves by their sexual acts...
This is normal to you? That's how you want to be perceived in meetings, or when you got a job interview or when you're sitting in a restaurant?
Are you for real?
Salaam,
There is a presumption that everyone is straight. This presumption is rebutted when someone admits that they are homosexual.
Sometimes, people suspect other people are homosexual, probably due to the way they behave. In this circumstances, should they lie about their sexual orientation or tell the truth when confronted?
Of course, well all know, homosexuality is not the sin unless if people were to put it into practice.
I was looking at myself talking to myself and I realized this conversation...I was having with myself looking at myself was a conversation with myself that I needed to have with myself.
In this circumstances, should they lie about their sexual orientation or tell the truth?
.
No one is under any obligation to share that kind of information, it isn't included in your passport, driver's license, birth certificate or job application unless folks lobby for that next thus I think it is a non-question..
This isn't a variation on the norm any more than necrophilia is and pushing it down everyone's throat won't make it anymore so.
No one is under any obligation to share that kind of information, it isn't included in your passport, driver's license, birth certificate or job application unless folks lobby for that next thus I think it is a non-question..
This isn't a variation on the norm any more than necrophilia is and pushing it down everyone's throat won't make it anymore so.
In theory, no one has to reveal their sexual orientation. In practice, people can be put under pressure to reveal their sexual orientation. What if a parent asks this question? At school/college/university? Even in court, if relevant, people may be asked to reveal their sexual orientation. Today, people are always questioning other people's sexual orientation.
I think there is nothing wrong with people being honest. However, if they start to boast about their sexual orientation, then it makes me very uncomfortable.
I was looking at myself talking to myself and I realized this conversation...I was having with myself looking at myself was a conversation with myself that I needed to have with myself.
In theory, no one has to reveal their sexual orientation. In practice, people can be put under pressure to reveal their sexual orientation. What if a parent asks this question? At school/college/university? Even in court, if relevant, people may be asked to reveal their sexual orientation. Today, people are always questioning other people's sexual orientation.
I think there is nothing wrong with people being honest. However, if they start to boast about their sexual orientation, then it makes me very uncomfortable.
No one is under pressure to reveal anything, this is an unusual conjectural scenario ..
People now a days are only too happy to reveal their sexual orientation it is en vogue.. they're not the poor sods everyone is making them out to be, it is even a common reoccurring theme in media I keep waiting for them to integrate it into kids programming the way they promote pre marital sex and runaway hooker clothing to 8 year olds...
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
I don't think it should be a problem for people to walk down the street holding the hand of their wife or husband. I think they should be allowed to have romantic diners in restaurants. I don't think they should be excluded from tax breaks or insurance benefits or other spousal benefits (though I'm actually not sure such things should exist either). I don't think they should have to hide that somebody is their significant other, their husband, their soul mate, whatever. I'm not to keen on watching them kiss in public, though I don't feel they should be killed, jailed, or fined for it. I feel the same way about all of this with homosexuals as with heterosexuals.
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