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  1. #1
    truthseeker63's Avatar
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    Question Is a classless society a society without or with no economic classes impossible in a

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    Is a classless society a society without or with no economic classes impossible in a society with money or even without what about now a days is this unlikely ? Can the upper class and the lower class ever be equal in terms on wealth and income and economics ? Did the Soviet Union and other Marxist Nations such as Cuba still have Rich or Wealthy People a Upper Class ?

    Karl Marx and Frederick Engels

    Manifesto
    of the Communist Party
    1848

    II -- PROLETARIANS AND COMMUNISTS

    When, in the course of development, class distinctions have disappeared, and all production has been concentrated in the hands of a vast association of the whole nation, the public power will lose its political character. Political power, properly so called, is merely the organized power of one class for oppressing another. If the proletariat during its contest with the bourgeoisie is compelled, by the force of circumstances, to organize itself as a class; if, by means of a revolution, it makes itself the ruling class, and, as such, sweeps away by force the old conditions of production, then it will, along with these conditions, have swept away the conditions for the existence of class antagonisms and of classes generally, and will thereby have abolished its own supremacy as a class.

    http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/marx/cl...manifesto.html

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    Santoku's Avatar
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    Re: Is a classless society a society without or with no economic classes impossible i

    Quote Originally Posted by truthseeker63 View Post
    Is a classless society a society without or with no economic classes impossible in a society with money or even without what about now a days is this unlikely ? Can the upper class and the lower class ever be equal in terms on wealth and income and economics ? Did the Soviet Union and other Marxist Nations such as Cuba still have Rich or Wealthy People a Upper Class ?

    Karl Marx and Frederick Engels

    Manifesto
    of the Communist Party
    1848

    II -- PROLETARIANS AND COMMUNISTS

    When, in the course of development, class distinctions have disappeared, and all production has been concentrated in the hands of a vast association of the whole nation, the public power will lose its political character. Political power, properly so called, is merely the organized power of one class for oppressing another. If the proletariat during its contest with the bourgeoisie is compelled, by the force of circumstances, to organize itself as a class; if, by means of a revolution, it makes itself the ruling class, and, as such, sweeps away by force the old conditions of production, then it will, along with these conditions, have swept away the conditions for the existence of class antagonisms and of classes generally, and will thereby have abolished its own supremacy as a class.

    http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/marx/cl...manifesto.html
    QUOTE=truthseeker63;1522785]Is a classless society a society without or with no economic classes impossible in a society with money or even without what about now a days is this unlikely ? [/QUOTE]

    Totally impossible!

    The USSR had totally seperate classes there was the political elite who never went short had dachas in the countryside, special stores where there were impored goods and no empty shelves, lesser officials had fewer privileges but hese were massively more than the average "equal" worker enjoyed. Queueing in Russia was and art form. It was a case of "Hey there is a queue!" "What's it for?" "Who cares join it anyway."

    Cuba is theoretically still communist/marxist and still has divisions.
    North Korea, peasants eat grass soup, the glorious leader for life has cordon bleu.

    Even Mohammed set it up when he said that the best person is the one with the best faith. --
    "Hey Dude, my faith is better than yours! I went to pray in the mosque all five times yesterday and my pronunciation was better than yours."

    As long as someone in a society is rated better than another for any reason, be it money, birth, faith, business acumen,looks, whatever there will always be an over class and an under class.

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    Muhaba's Avatar
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    Re: Is a classless society a society without or with no economic classes impossible i

    i don't think the aim is to be a classless society. i think the aim should be to make people care about their fellow human beings. a brotherly society where everyone cares about everyone else.

    that way, the richer try to help the poor instead of trying to pull money out of everyone whichever way they can.

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    Re: Is a classless society a society without or with no economic classes impossible i

    Quote Originally Posted by Santoku View Post
    Even Mohammed set it up when he said that the best person is the one with the best faith. --
    "Hey Dude, my faith is better than yours! I went to pray in the mosque all five times yesterday and my pronunciation was better than yours."
    I strongly disagree. This was not setting up a society based on class.

    We have to strive to be pious and do good deeds, and to be righteous, in the eyes of God, not the eyes of mankind.

    Allah said:

    O mankind, surely We created you of a male and a female, and We have made you nations and tribes that you may know one another. Surely the most honorable among you in the sight of Allah are the most pious; surely Allah is Ever-Knowing, Ever-Cognizant. (Qur'an, 49:13)

    Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying:
    Verily Allah does not look to your faces and your wealth but He looks to your heart and to your deeds.

    (Muslim English reference : Book 32, Hadith 6221, Arabic reference : Book 46, Hadith 6708)

    "I visited Allah's Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم, and he صلى الله عليه وسلم was lying on a mat. I sat down and he drew up his lower garment over him and he had nothing (else) over him, and that the mat had left its marks on his sides. I looked with my eyes in the store room of Allah's Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم. I found only a handful of barley equal to one sa' and an equal quantity of the leaves of Mimosa Flava placed in the nook of the cell, and a semi-tanned leather bag hanging (in one side), and I was moved to tears (on seeing this extremely austere living of the Holy Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم), and he صلى الله عليه وسلم said: Ibn Khattab, what wakes you weep? I said: Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وسلم, why should I not shed tears? This mat has left its marks on your sides and I do not see in your store room (except these few things) that I have seen; Ceasar and Khusroes are leading their lives in plenty whereas you are Allah's Messenger. His chosen one, and that is your store! He said: Ibn Khattab, aren't you satisfied that for us (there should be the prosperity) of the Hereafter and for them (there should be the prosperity of) this world? I said: Yes.”
    [Narrated by Umar رضي الله عنه Recorded in Muslim: 3507]

    You see no rich ruling class here.
    | Likes Qurratul Ayn, جوري liked this post
    Is a classless society a society without or with no economic classes impossible in a


    Stunningly beautiful adhaan from the Dome of the Rock in Masjid ul Aqsa
    Download (right click and choose "save target/link as").


    This is a clear message for mankind in order that they may be warned thereby, and that they may know that He is only One God, and that those of understanding may take heed (14:52)


    Indeed Allah knows, and you know not (16: 74, part)

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    Muhaba's Avatar
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    Re: Is a classless society a society without or with no economic classes impossible i

    there is no such thing as classless society. soem people are naturally able to work harder than others or they simply earn more than others, even some are more lucky, so they have more money.

    Allah says in the Quran that He constricts some people's sustenance while expanding other people's rizq. this means that some people will get more money and others will get less. so there will be classes in society.

    islam doesn't allow that the hard-earned money of someone should be taken by force and redistributed to others to make them all equal, which is what a class-less society does. a class-less society tries to make all the same, but that is not possible without injustice.

    Islam does enjoin that people should help others. there are cases where you may have to give everything. If everyone else is dying of hunger, then you would have to give what you have. there is a hadith saying "save yourself from the Fire even with half a date." What that means is that even if you only have just one date, if you see someone who is hungry, give half of it to them.

    Then there is the case where an expedition of companions went somewhere. when they saw that they had very little food left, the leader collected all the dates that the people had and kept them with himself. then, every day he gave every person 1 date in the morning and 1 in the evening. a companion states that they realized the significance of those two dates when they ran out of dates completely. (afterward, Allah gave them a whale).

    This is an extreme condition where all the food from all the members of the expedition had been taken into the leader's custody and then redistributed by him equally on a daily basis. and this was done for their survival.

    however, in conditions not so extreme, everyone is entitled to his/her earnings and property. but they have to still care for others, whether it is through obligatory zakat charity or through voluntary charity. there are hadiths that say that if you eat while your neighbor sleeps hungry, you are a sinner. (Exact words of hadith i don't rmember.)

    so i think that means that there is no such thing as a classless society in Islam.

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    Re: Is a classless society a society without or with no economic classes impossible i

    I agree with your answers.
    | Likes Muhaba liked this post

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    Re: Is a classless society a society without or with no economic classes impossible i

    Quote Originally Posted by Insaanah View Post


    I strongly disagree. This was not setting up a society based on class.

    We have to strive to be pious and do good deeds, and to be righteous, in the eyes of God, not the eyes of mankind.

    Allah said:

    O mankind, surely We created you of a male and a female, and We have made you nations and tribes that you may know one another. Surely the most honorable among you in the sight of Allah are the most pious; surely Allah is Ever-Knowing, Ever-Cognizant. (Qur'an, 49:13)

    Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying:
    Verily Allah does not look to your faces and your wealth but He looks to your heart and to your deeds.

    (Muslim English reference : Book 32, Hadith 6221, Arabic reference : Book 46, Hadith 6708)

    "I visited Allah's Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم, and he صلى الله عليه وسلم was lying on a mat. I sat down and he drew up his lower garment over him and he had nothing (else) over him, and that the mat had left its marks on his sides. I looked with my eyes in the store room of Allah's Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم. I found only a handful of barley equal to one sa' and an equal quantity of the leaves of Mimosa Flava placed in the nook of the cell, and a semi-tanned leather bag hanging (in one side), and I was moved to tears (on seeing this extremely austere living of the Holy Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم), and he صلى الله عليه وسلم said: Ibn Khattab, what wakes you weep? I said: Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وسلم, why should I not shed tears? This mat has left its marks on your sides and I do not see in your store room (except these few things) that I have seen; Ceasar and Khusroes are leading their lives in plenty whereas you are Allah's Messenger. His chosen one, and that is your store! He said: Ibn Khattab, aren't you satisfied that for us (there should be the prosperity) of the Hereafter and for them (there should be the prosperity of) this world? I said: Yes.”
    [Narrated by Umar رضي الله عنه Recorded in Muslim: 3507]

    You see no rich ruling class here.
    I said class doesn't have to be based on birth or money but on the "currency" of what determines superiority be it looks, acts of faith or whatever.

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    جوري's Avatar
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    Re: Is a classless society a society without or with no economic classes impossible i

    Are you advocating communism or what's going on here? Equality doesn't mean sameness!
    Is a classless society a society without or with no economic classes impossible in a

    Text without context is pretext
    If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him


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    Re: Is a classless society a society without or with no economic classes impossible i

    Some will always have more wealth than others. And even if we were to equally divide all the wealth on earth, some people will willingly give their money to some more than others.
    Is a classless society a society without or with no economic classes impossible in a

    70:28 Lo! the doom of their Lord is that before which none can feel secure

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    Re: Is a classless society a society without or with no economic classes impossible i

    Is it possible to establish classless society?.

    Khmer Rogue eliminated the social classes when they ruled Cambodia. But classes still raised, the political elite, and the people.

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    Re: Is a classless society a society without or with no economic classes impossible i

    the bottom line is that communism is not an islamic system. Allah gave mankind the right to property ownership and the right to engage in halal business (making consumption and production choices on their own). taking this right away from them and putting it in the hands of government is not islamic, which is what communism does. In communism, government owns all property and companies (there is no private property ownership) and government makes decisions regarding production.

    there are verses in the Quran showing that humans have the right to private property ownership, engaging in business, etc . which means that Islam recognizes a free economy, the only limit being halal and haraam (and limits to extravagance, etc). And the Islamic system is best & most beneficial for humans since it's from Allah. and we have to accept it to be the best, since in the Quran it is written that the one who follows a law other than Allah's is kafir, fasiq, dhalim (Surah Ali-Imran).

    there are many drawbacks in communist system. it is an inefficient system that has proven to be a failure. private business ownership is the best since each owner cares about profit so tries to lower costs and improve the product, etc. Competition among privately owned companies also helps in improving the quality of the product and lowering prices. And consumer demand efficiently directs the economy toward efficient usage of resources, etc.

    This is in line with the Islamic system too, as there are hadith showing that prices should be left to supply & demand and shouldn't be set by government. In one hadith, some people came to the Prophet (SAW) asking him to set the prices, but the Prophet (SAW) refused , saying that prices are from Allah. This means that he left prices to the laws of supply and demand.

    of course, in extreme cases, where monopoly or other factors mess up the system of supply & demand, then government intervenes but in normal circumstances prices should be left to supply & demand.

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    Re: Is a classless society a society without or with no economic classes impossible i

    As long as there are people, there will be social, ethnic and economic division. It's the way we are. It doesn't make it right, and it doesn't mean we shouldn't sincerely try to improve.

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    Muhaba's Avatar
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    Re: Is a classless society a society without or with no economic classes impossible i

    the Islamic system is always the best as it is from Allah and He knows what is right for us. whenever ppl turn to other systems, they have problems. everything becomes messed up.

    ppl may think that having government decide production & consumption will make society better but that isn't true and this has already been proven. why not read books about communist economies before posting here? all the drawbacks are given in them.

    if ppl want to make society better off, the correct thing is to try to make ppl more caring. then the rich will care for the poor and will voluntarily give to them. It's what happend when the Muslims from Makkah migrated to Madina. the ansar voluntarily shared everything they had with the muhajireen.

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    Re: Is a classless society a society without or with no economic classes impossible i

    We are created differently. Men aren't the same as women, old not the same as young, talents are different, brains are different, looks are different, character is different even Olympians of the same field don't compete against one another gender wise. It doesn't mean we're not equal before God, just means we're a different variety. I saw a fantastic charitable program where a Turkish good Samaritan gave up a piece of land to people with various handicap to work on, farming, making shoes, working with livestock and they loved it. He offered them basic vocational training for about a year and in return they contributed.. They probably contribute better than an able bodied person and with more fidelity because to them it isn't a job, but something to make them feel wanted where they contribute and are best suited and where their talent is utilized. They're not sitting at home being as others describe a financial liability to society just left to rot.
    Everyone has a different talent, some of us supersede in certain areas.. we just have to tap into what it is that we believe we can do really well and do it.
    That's how societies rise and moral is boosted .. not through sameness and what a nightmare that would be? Where's the individual self in a classless society where a thief is made equal to a scientist?
    Also being rich or poor in Islam is in and of itself a test.. Who will give, who will be patient..
    Patience and charity aren't the same but both admirable.. so I don't agree at all with the premise proposed here..
    | Likes glo, Banu_Hashim, Muhaba, Insaanah liked this post
    Is a classless society a society without or with no economic classes impossible in a

    Text without context is pretext
    If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him


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    truthseeker63's Avatar
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    Re: Is a classless society a society without or with no economic classes impossible i

    Communism/Socialism/Marxism is State Capitalism.

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    Re: Is a classless society a society without or with no economic classes impossible i

    I agree.

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    Re: Is a classless society a society without or with no economic classes impossible i

    I would agree since even Communism could never and never has created a Classless Society.

    Islam

    basics Library:
    Islam, The Misunderstood Religion

    ISLAM AND THE CLASS SYSTEM

    Let us take Russia for example. Do all people get the same wages or are some people more privileged than others in livelihood? Are all the conscripted people made officers or soldiers or are some of them raised above others in rank?
    http://www.islambasics.com/view.php?bkID=157&chapter=6

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    Re: Is a classless society a society without or with no economic classes impossible i

    Thanks for replying.

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    Re: Is a classless society a society without or with no economic classes impossible i

    Does anyone agree with the above post ?


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