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The scary thing is their lack of tolerance. They all gang up and attack individuals like a school of sharks. They are always iching to persecute someone who might be different to them and they love to interfere with other peoples private affairs. Sometimes I wonder if there are only a few people and the rest are Jinns in human form to make our lives miserable.Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
The scary thing is their lack of tolerance. -Karl
“Society” you say? “Society”, “states” and the U.N Red Terror etc etc are my ENEMY and I will always defy them until the end. I simply don’t recognise any of those entities, particularly when it comes down to my DOMESTIC affairs. I regard domestic affairs to be something that is sacrosanctly private. If any outside party ever dared interfered in my domestic affairs and lectured me what I should and shouldn’t do with my offspring I’d be so utterly furious that I’d put a bullet through them for the audacity. I simply don’t tolerate communist Nanny State interference into my domestic life! I will always stand my ground and defend against usurpers and tyrants, to the death if absolutely necessary. If other parents wish to tolerate such intrusive audacity from these busybody scum then that’s their downfall, not mine. You need to realise that I’m not Jewish. I don’t live in a kibbutz where everyone’s business is each others. My domestic business is my business alone as far as I’m concerned. -Karl
I admit that most modern day secularist totalitarian states have usurped parental sovereignty and forcibly subsumed parents in to an official status of subservience to the state. But that doesn’t mean to say that I for one am going to AGREE and COOPERATE with the state. I have told you over and over and over again that my OWN position is that I do simply not recognise at all state authority over my DOMESTIC AFFAIRS. That the state has the POWER to invade my private property and usurp my parental authority DOESN’T change the fact that in the hypothetical event of any state intrusion into my domestic affairs I WILL fight them to the death to defend my private property and parental sovereignty which I passionately consider to be my God Given Right. You are simply wasting your time if you think you can ever change my mind on this. If I ever need to be “punished” for anything I ever do “wrong” in my domestic affairs I will ONLY accept ALLAH (swt) judging me on that, NOT any external third party Earthly entity such as a “state” or “collective”. -Karl
So.... you are saying that religion can logically lead one to wish people to do each other harm, rather than hoping to stop them. I guess we don't disagree on everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
you do not need religion to think that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
some people think karma would do it.
other's think that nature will do it via mutations.
There is truth in that, but that does not mean that all absurd ideas should be taken seriously. The fact is that most absurd ideas are, deep down, truly absurd. I easily categorize the right to treat your children as property to the extent that someone believes they have the right to kill them if they wish as an extremely absurd one.Quote:
All revolutionary ideas start as absurdities. Islam was an absurdity to Arabs when Prophet started his call.
As a Muslim how do you think your Prophet would answer that?Quote:
People today do everything they can to preserve the sickly and weak. Is this the right path? Would it be better to let them die so their genetic line gets stronger?
Then what right do they have to create life by having sex?Quote:
Originally Posted by titus
You cannot have your cake and then eat it too. If they have the right to have sex to produce babies, they should have the right to kill too. No?
Greetings and peace be with you CosmicPathos;
What specific passages in the Quran give you this right?Quote:
You cannot have your cake and then eat it too. If they have the right to have sex to produce babies, they should have the right to kill too. No?
How many passages tell you about the sanctity of life in the Quran?
In the spirit of praying for justice for all people
Eric
Greetings and peace be with you Karl;
These premature babies die in the Third World, so in a way the rich countries play God and they decide who lives and who dies.Quote:
People today do everything they can to preserve the sickly and weak. Is this the right path? Would it be better to let them die so their genetic line gets stronger? So many babies are born premature and have to be kept in intensive care in incubators, is this right and natural?
In the spirit of praying for justice for all people
Eric
No, human beings does not equal animal.
"We have indeed created man in the best of moulds,"
Quran Sura At-Tin
Your Creator has spoken highly about the human beings. Even when the angels compared themselves to us they were reminded of their lack of knowledge compared to Allah.
We have the potential to be worse than animals, but we also have the potential to be in a status higher than angels.
How would anyone be so sure that they are not?. Hypocrisy at the time of the prophet was kept secret it was only the prophet and one companion who knew them by name and their identification was very confidential. Anyway, we weren't attacking you that's a bit too strong. We were trying to make you distinguish betweeen your personal beliefs and islamic view of things. You've never even qouted one hadith or verse from the quran to support your premises instead you said it was the shafaeh way of doing things and that Islam has many 'versions'. So why should we take your stance as gospel truth when you'd already aligned your beliefs with the old roman law. If you also haven't noticed the tone of your posts were imposing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl
It seems there are supposed muslims who want us to put Islam aside and adopt their 'logical deductions' after many years of observing humanity and it's social dimensions. Exhibiting a lack of empathy and reinforcing darwinian beliefs in the name of speaking their minds and later accusing others of intolerance. I'm glad pygo expressed to Cosmic how similar alike their views are afterall. It pretty much says well enough for one to understand. The prophets message is to be perserved since the 'revolution' is done and overwith but thanks to darwinian theories it seems that even Islam should be evolved into something that suits one taste. Nice recipe: Psuedo Islam+Roman law+ Evolution theory anything else?. We we charge 50 cents for adding toppings.
I see it pretty often in creationists, this attack on evolution as encouraging such things. Evolution is not a manifesto. It does not say what should be. It just attempts to describe what is. Calls to "push evolution along" as if it is heading towards something "better" is entirely a product of the mind of the speaker, and has nothing to do with evolution theory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Berries'forest
This is ironic. All Cosmic and I agreed on is that God belief can logically lead one to his position. He has God belief, and so do you. I don't.Quote:
I'm glad pygo expressed to Cosmic how similar alike their views are afterall. It pretty much says well enough for one to understand.
I wasn't really attacking Evolution afterall it's only a theory one day it might be universally disproven. But there isn't a single statement made without the refernce of evolution theory. Evolving is an ongoing process it doesn't just stop it adapts and alters conditions. Off topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I don't think it's ironic it's more obscure. His position or rather positions of which he consistently insists on their utter accuracy should be distinguished from Islamic viewpoint. Cosmic (a theist) agrees with you (an atheist) that belief in God can lead to his orchastrated position. I hear loud bells ringing. I don't share that view with niether of you which disqulaifies me from being counted in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I see one muslim saying one thing and another rmuslim saying something else, and both claiming their positions are consistent with Islam. I, as an outsider to Islam, have no reason to doubt either of you. You both seem straightforward and honest about your positions and about your faith. Cosmic has said some alarming things and has been rude towards me ("psygo"), but he doesn't seem dishonest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Berries'forest
I've said nothing in regards the Islamic verdict on the main issue. The posts I made were directed to Karl particularily. Karl has said that his views don't represent Islam and it seems the same with Cosmic. I was actually pointing to the fact that Cosmic's opinions on matters should also not be considered the standard Islamic position. About the other comment I think it was pretty clear since it is suspicious how you both agree on thinking that faith in God specifically leads people into commiting bad things. Why didn't he blame it on zeslousy, fanaticism or better yet their failure in interpreting religious texts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
:salamext:
Before closing this thread which has gone very off-topic, I hope the following will be useful to mention by way of clarification of some points mentioned earlier.
O you who have believed, enter into Islam completely [and perfectly] and do not follow the footsteps of Satan. Indeed, he is to you a clear enemy. [Al-Baqarah: 208]
The first point we should remind ourselves with is that Islam is complete submission to the will of Allaah :swt:. We cannot pick and choose which parts we want to follow. Before we adamantly forward our opinions on certain issues, it would be wiser to check what guidelines there are in Islam and whether we might be inadvertently opposing them. As already noted, there hasn't been a single verse from the Qur'an or citation of hadeeth, or action of the pious predecessors, or saying of any Muslim scholar, quoted in support of some of the opinions here. Yet those evidences provided to show the teachings of Islam appear to have been disregarded. The only reference is to 'Shafi'i Islam'. There is no such thing as 'Shafi'i Islam' as if it were a different form of Islam to what the rest of us are following. Imam Shafi'i, may Allaah :swt: have mercy upon him, and those adhering to his school of jurisprudence, followed the same Qur'an and the same Prophet :saws: as all the other righteous Imams. Whatever is attributed to his teachings should be verified and checked. And what should be checked even prior to that is our hearts, in that we do not form our opinions and then find justification for them in the scripture.
O you who have believed, do not put [yourselves] before Allah and His Messenger but fear Allah . Indeed, Allah is Hearing and Knowing. [Al-Hujurat: 1]
When we follow Allaah :swt: and when we follow His last Prophet :saws:, we will realise that they provide guidance in all spheres of life. Broadly speaking, the law of Islam deals with man’s life in four categories of rights and obligations, or relationships: (1) man’s relationship with Allaah, his Creator, (2) his relationship with himself, or his own rights upon himself, (3) his relationship with other people, and (4) his relationship with his natural environment, or in other words, the rights of those resources which Allaah has placed within his power and has allowed him to use for his benefit.The teachings with regards to good behaviour and excellence pertain to all these spheres:Quote:
Islam's reason d'etre is to make us recognize one God who has created us and to follow His last Prophet. That is it.
Islam has given me the freedom to create my own views in all other aspects of life.
Indeed, Allah orders justice and good conduct and giving to relatives and forbids immorality and bad conduct and oppression. He admonishes you that perhaps you will be reminded. [An-Nahl:90]
The Prophet :saws: said, 'Verily Allaah has prescribed Ihsaan (proficiency, perfection) in all things...' [Reported by Muslim]
Those who are arguing for complete freedom to do as they wish in personal affairs should kindly explain where such an exception to do so exists.
Quote:
I have not the arrogance nor interest to interfere into anyone else's domestic affairs no matter what they get up to in their domestic affairs. What they do is their own business, not mine.
The believers, men and women, are supporters of one another; they enjoin good, and forbid evil; they perform the Salah, and give the Zakah, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah will have His mercy on them. Surely, Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise. [At-Tawbah: 71]
There have already preceded some of the teachings in Islam regarding the responsibility of a Muslim towards others. Islam pays great attention to the needs of a community and is against a self-centred way of thinking. A clear example of this is the system of Zakah, which is the bridge between the various economic levels of the society. Not only does it have an economic and social function, but it also fosters in the Muslim qualities of sacrifice and rids him of selfishness and avarice. The Muslim society is a society of cooperation and mutual support. A Muslim is required to wish the best for others to bring about the best for them if he has the ability to do so. Here follow some more teachings with regards to this:
Ibn Abi’l-Dunya narrated from Ibn ‘Umar that the Prophet :saws: said: “The most beloved of people to Allaah is the one who brings most benefit to people, and the most beloved of deeds to Allaah is making a Muslim happy, or relieving him of hardship, or paying off his debt, or warding off hunger from him. For me to go with my Muslim brother to meet his need is dearer to me than observing i’tikaaf in this mosque – meaning the mosque of Madeenah – for a month… whoever goes with his Muslim brother to meet his need, Allaah will make him stand firm on the Day when all feet will slip.” Classed as hasan by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Targheeb wa’l-Tarheeb, 2623.
The Prophet :saws: said: “Whoever relieves a Muslim of one of the hardships of this world, Allaah will relieve him of one of the hardships of the Day of Resurrection, and whoever helps one who is financial difficulty, Allaah will help in this world and in the Hereafter, and whoever conceals a Muslim’s (fault), Allaah will conceal his (fault) in this world and in the Hereafter. Allaah will help a person so long as he helps his brother.” Narrated by Muslim, 2699.
The Prophet :saws: said, 'The Deen (religion) is naseehah (advice/sincerity)'. We said 'To whom?' He said 'To Allah and His Book, and His Messenger, and to the leaders of the Muslims and their common folk.' [Related by Muslim]
The Prophet :saws: said : None of you [truly] believes until he loves for his brother that which he loves for himself. [Related by al-Bukhaaree and Muslim]
In particular, our neighbours, families, relatives, fellow Muslims, those under our care, all of have rights upon us. What happens to them is most certainly our business. If we see they need our help, we are obliged to give it. If they are falling into error, we are obliged to advise them. And when we are in need of them, they are obliged to fulfil that need.
Worship Allah and associate nothing with Him, and to parents do good, and to relatives, orphans, the needy, the near neighbor, the neighbor farther away, the companion at your side, the traveler, and those whom your right hands possess. Indeed, Allah does not like those who are self-deluding and boastful. [An-Nisa: 36]
You are the best nation produced [as an example] for mankind. You enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and believe in Allah . If only the People of the Scripture had believed, it would have been better for them. Among them are believers, but most of them are defiantly disobedient. [Aal-Imraan: 110]
Allaah’s Messenger :saws: has given us a clear picture of these mutual responsibilities by saying: "The likeness of the man who observes the limits prescribed by Allah and that of the man who transgresses them is like the people who get on board a ship after casting lots. Some of them are in its lower deck and some of them in its upper (deck). Those who are in its lower (deck), when they require water, go to the occupants of the upper deck, and say to them : 'If we make a hole in the bottom of the ship, we shall not harm you.' If they (the occupants of the upper deck) leave them to carry out their design they all will be drowned. But if they do not let them go ahead (with their plan), all of them will remain safe". [Al- Bukhari Book 1, Hadith 187].
Islam has legislated that there be people in authority concerned with the welfare of society. Clearly, we are not talking about random people, but those who have the pre-requisites like knowledge and piety. The legacy of the Prophet :saws: was not lost 1500 years ago - it has been transmitted to us in the Qur'an and Sunnah. And that is why the scholars are called the 'inheritors of the Prophets' because they are a means by which such legacy is continued. So in this context, a judge applies the injunctions of Islamic Law, and we are not talking about someone acting of their own personal wishes. The Prophet :saws: undertook this responsibility and appointed judges in the regions that were under Islamic rule, and so did the Caliphs that succeeded him. Furthermore, Muslim scholars agree uniformly on the necessity of assigning judges to settle disputes among people. We find this concept of leadership in the Qur'an:Quote:
Gone are the days when one could blindly trust in the likes of great people like Umar or Ali because we knew they were trained by the Prophet himself (saw). I cannot put trust in random joe sheikhs/khalifahs today, who are separated by the wall of 1500 years from the legacy of Prophet, to interfere in my or any Muslim's personal life. Religion today is being used as a tool of manipulation. And I cant let any snake use that tool to manipulate me!
O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, and those of you who are in authority. If you differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination. [An-Nisa: 59]
Allaah :swt: further gives guidance to those in authority:
Verily, Allaah commands that you should render back the trusts to those, to whom they are due; and that when you judge between men, you judge with justice. [al-Nisa’ 4:58].
Imam Ahmad said, 'There must be a judge among people so that rights are not lost.'
Nothing is truly within our possession. Everything we have is given to us by Allaah :swt:, for He is Al-Malik, the Owner of everything. He is the One who brought us into being and gave us what we have:Quote:
My offspring are the possessions of me,
And Allah has extracted you from the wombs of your mothers not knowing a thing, and He made for you hearing and vision and intellect that perhaps you would be grateful. [An-Nahl:78]
The action of procreation in no way means that it is we who have 'created' life or that we own it:
We have created you, so why do you not believe? Have you seen that which you emit? Is it you who creates it, or are We the Creator? [Al-Waqi'ah: 57-59]
Rather it is Allaah :swt: who causes the semen to remain in the wombs and creates life from it therein, stage after stage.
To Allah belongs the kingdom of the heavens and the earth. He creates what He wills. He bestows female (offspring) upon whom He wills, and bestows male (offspring) upon whom He wills. Or He bestows both males and females, and He renders barren whom He wills. Verily, He is the All-Knower and is Able to do all things. [Ash-Shura: 49-50]
Our very own bodies are not owned by us, as we have the responsibility of nourishing and maintaining them, and it is not for us to harm them. How is it then with other creations of Allaah :swt:?
On the specific issue of children, firstly, it should be no surprise that Islam has prescribed a number of guidelines with regards to children. Allaah :swt: and His Prophet :saws: have every right to dictate what we should do with them, as we all belong to Allaah :swt: in the first place. Here follow some important teachings with respect to children:Quote:
My only issue was with other ppl trying to dictate what we should do with our own children.
The child has a right to life. Neither the father nor the mother have the right to take the life of the child, whether a boy or a girl, by killing it or burying it alive, as was done by some Arabs during the period of Pre-Islamic Ignorance.
And kill not your children for fear of poverty. We shall provide for them as well as for you. Surely, the killing of them is a great sin. [Al-Isra: 31]
And when the female (infant) buried alive (as the pagan Arabs used to do) is questioned: For what sin, was she killed? [At-Takwir: 8-9]
Narrated `Abdullah bin Mas`ud: I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Which is the biggest sin?" He said, "To set up rivals to Allah by worshipping others though He alone has created you." I asked, "What is next?" He said, "To kill your child lest it should share your food..." [Al-Bukhari]
The Prophet :saws: took an oath of allegiance from both men and women at the time of their accepting Islam. This oath of allegiance included the condition that they would not kill their children and would consider it an absolutely prohibited crime:
O Prophet! When believing women come to you to give you the Bai'ah (pledge), that they will not associate anything in worship with Allah, that they will not steal, that they will not commit illegal sexual intercourse, that they will not kill their children... (Al-Mumtahinah:12)
There are many other rights of a child in Islam, such as the right to having a good name, a right to sustenance, education, and proper care. The parents are not permitted to neglect the child's needs nor to abuse it:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: The Messenger of Allah :saws: as saying: Each of you is a shepherd and each of you is responsible for his flock. The amir (ruler) who is over the people is a shepherd and is responsible for hs flock ; a man is a shepherd in charge of the inhabitants of his household and he is responsible for his flock ; a woman is a shepherdess in charge of her husband's house and children and she is responsible for them; and a man's slave is a shepherd in charge of his master's property and he is responsible for it. So each of you is a shepherd and each of you is responsible for his flock. [Sunan Abi Dawud 2928]
The Prophet :saws: also taught us to treat our children equally:
The Prophet :saws: said: Act equally between your children; Act equally between your sons. [Sunan Abi Dawud 3544]
In conclusion, let us be very cautious about forwarding views that contradict the teachings of Islam. Let us reflect on what Islam says about these issues and let us check our hearts and alter our views when they go against the Words of Allaah :swt: and His Messenger :saws:.
The Messenger (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) believes in what has been sent down to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers. Each one believes in Allah, His Angels, His Books, and His Messengers. (They say), "We make no distinction between one another of His Messengers" - and they say, "We hear, and we obey. (We seek) Your Forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the return (of all)." [Al-Baqarah: 285]