Israel land grab law 'ends hope of two-state solution'

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Originally Posted by ethnhunt

Why do you say that Israelis steal land? Are you implying that Isarel has no right to be around? Historically the Jews are the indiginiouse people of that area.

Perhaps you should know that Palestine is a creation of Roman Empire. There were never a country called Palestine and there were never a people called Palestinians. These terms are very new; they took hold in the past 100 years only. Golda Maer held a Palestinian Passport in 1930s.

Anyway, Romans conquered Judea back more then 2000 years ago, destroyed the Jewish Temple and attempted to exile the Jews. In order to separate the Jews from the Jewish Land the Romans re-named Israel ‘Palestina’. This was a common practice back then, - change the name of the land and you will de-facto change the people.

Modern day Palestinians are Arabs of Muslim faith. Their ancestors came to the land that became known as Palestine back 1300 years ago, when Islam broke out of Arabia and violently ceased the land that today is known as Israel. Crusaders tried to take back the land from the Muslims, sometimes successfully but most often not.

‘Palestine’ changed hands over the past 2000 years a few times, - most recently the Turks ruled over it for about 400 years until the British took control as a result of the 1^st World War. Finally in 1948 the Jews were restored to the land by the order of UN and the rest is, as they say, - history.

So, - what we have here is the Arabs and the Jews with claims to the Land. Both claims are valid. The Jews have a better case, in my opinion, as they have been there much longer. Notice, that the Christians also can raise a claim to the land and that may also be valid, but they never did because there are many Christian countries out there and the Christians really only want a control of Christian religions places, which they now have.

Please look at the published data on population density in Israel. For example, - Jerusalem has always had a majority Jewish population.

Perhaps you should re-evaluate your views.

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the jews were never expelled from that area so even if they lived there thousands of years ago they have no right to just grab it of the new owners.

thank you for the response,

As a believer, I don't consider 2 state solutions possible either. Normally I would, but Jerusalem is holy for all three Abrahamic traditions and all three have end time prophecies surrounding Jerusalem. 2 state solutions seem like wishful hippy thinking considering those, and after all that's happened since way back when.

Scimi

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Originally Posted by AbdullahAziz

the jews were never expelled from that area so even if they lived there thousands of years ago they have no right to just grab it of the new owners.

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Hmmm...The Jews were expelled from Judea by Persians and by Greeks and finally by Romans. THose are the facts of history. However, the Jewish life in Judea never stopped. There have always been Jewish villiages in the land where Isarel is today. THose are historical facts. Jerusalem has always had a majority of Jews at all times in recorded history. That data is available and is published, look it up.

The most recent wave of emigration into Palestine happpen in the late 1800's. Many Muslim Arabs migrated into the area at that time and also the Jews from Europe arrived just as well. By 1948 there was 1 million Arabs and 600,000 Jews living in British mandated Palestine.

Please understand, that the Jews are the original population of that land. The Arabs also have the right to say the same thing just to a lesser extent, since, the Jews pre-date the Arabs by a great number of centuries. Arabs are not the new owners. NOBODY owned that land in the context of modern world. The best you can say is that the Ottoman Turks ruled that land for 400 years and than the UK took from the Turks as a result of WW1.

In the context of modern world it is United Nations that made the dessision to create new country of israel and Palestine. Palestine never happen due to war waged by Muslim powers against Israel in 1948. Whose fault is that? Jordan ruled West Bank, where Palestine was supposed to be, from 1948 till 1968. Jordan NEVER allowed Palestine to come into existance and NO MUSLIM ARAB complained until Mr. Arafat arrived from Egypt in early 1960's. So, - how can you say that the Arabs are the "new owners"?

By the way, UN also created Pakistan, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Soudi Arabia in about the same time as Israel was created. I understand that you may not like the facts, but the history is what it is.

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Originally Posted by Scimitar

thank you for the response,

As a believer, I don't consider 2 state solutions possible either. Normally I would, but Jerusalem is holy for all three Abrahamic traditions and all three have end time prophecies surrounding Jerusalem. 2 state solutions seem like wishful hippy thinking considering those, and after all that's happened since way back when.

Scimi

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I undertand. Jerusalem is currently available to ALL religions equally. Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims of all sects, Mormons, even Bahaj have places of worship.

I do think that 2-state solution is not possible due mostly to PA-Hamas agenda. The jews can be convinced to share the land, but the Muslims absolutely have no desire to do the same. Any so far proposed Muslim Plan involves complete dismantling of Israel. No state can be asked to commit a suiside. THis is the problem.

You may not be Jewish or Israeli but you sure sound like one. Of course you know beyond a shadow of a doubt what is in the hearts of every Muslim in Palestine. How else could you say that they want to continue to live in fenced off Ghettos with an Israeli air, land and sea blockade? How else would you know that Muslims want their houses bulldozed and possessions destroyed? Or children killed on beaches playing football? Yes, it has to be 100% of the Muslims fault.

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Originally Posted by Aryeh Jay

You may not be Jewish or Israeli but you sure sound like one. Of course you know beyond a shadow of a doubt what is in the hearts of every Muslim in Palestine. How else could you say that they want to continue to live in fenced off Ghettos with an Israeli air, land and sea blockade? How else would you know that Muslims want their houses bulldozed and possessions destroyed? Or children killed on beaches playing football? Yes, it has to be 100% of the Muslims fault.

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I sound like a person who is aware of history and who is not putting all the responsibility for the conflict one one side. Israel is not the only player here.

I do not want anyone to live in fenced 'gettos'. I want Muslim Arabs to have a good life. I also want the Jews of Israel to have a good life. How can we do that?

Nobody says that Israelis​ are angels. They are not. Their tactics towards Palestinian Arabs is heavy-handed. However, you cannot simply accuse Israelis of all the problems here. Both sides have done a great deal of damage to each other.

For every dead Muslim there is also a dead Jew. I hope you see a problem with your reasoning.

The fact is this, PA have been repeatedly offered a deal to settle this conflict. PA repeatedly refused. Mr. Arafat famously said that if he agreed to the offer made in 2000, he'd be killed by his own people. All Arab leaders who tried to settle this conflict were killed by their own people. King Abdullah of Jordan and Anwar Sadat of Egypt are dead because they tried.

Today Israel is in waiting mode. The Jews are waiting for someone better then Abbas and Arafat to finally make a deal. In the mean time people die on both sides.

Think about this,- if Israelis disarm the Arabs would kill them all. If Arabs disarm, the Jews will offer them peace, like they have been doing since 1948. All wars todate have been started by Arabs. All wars todate have been lost by Arabs. Methinks, it's time to do better.

To me, it's just a piece of land.

God's will be done.

Scimi

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Originally Posted by ethnhunt

Hmmm...The Jews were expelled from Judea by Persians and by Greeks and finally by Romans. THose are the facts of history. However, the Jewish life in Judea never stopped. There have always been Jewish villiages in the land where Isarel is today. THose are historical facts. Jerusalem has always had a majority of Jews at all times in recorded history. That data is available and is published, look it up.

The most recent wave of emigration into Palestine happpen in the late 1800's. Many Muslim Arabs migrated into the area at that time and also the Jews from Europe arrived just as well. By 1948 there was 1 million Arabs and 600,000 Jews living in British mandated Palestine.

Please understand, that the Jews are the original population of that land. The Arabs also have the right to say the same thing just to a lesser extent, since, the Jews pre-date the Arabs by a great number of centuries. Arabs are not the new owners. NOBODY owned that land in the context of modern world. The best you can say is that the Ottoman Turks ruled that land for 400 years and than the UK took from the Turks as a result of WW1.

In the context of modern world it is United Nations that made the dessision to create new country of israel and Palestine. Palestine never happen due to war waged by Muslim powers against Israel in 1948. Whose fault is that? Jordan ruled West Bank, where Palestine was supposed to be, from 1948 till 1968. Jordan NEVER allowed Palestine to come into existance and NO MUSLIM ARAB complained until Mr. Arafat arrived from Egypt in early 1960's. So, - how can you say that the Arabs are the "new owners"?

By the way, UN also created Pakistan, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Soudi Arabia in about the same time as Israel was created. I understand that you may not like the facts, but the history is what it is.

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lol bro you cannot go back thousands of years and claim rights to a land because that land belonged to jews back then! :Emoji47:; lets give back england to the viking then! :Emoji48:, lets give back the entire wrold to people who lived there ten thousand years ago! :Emoji48:

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Originally Posted by AbdullahAziz

lol bro you cannot go back thousands of years and claim rights to a land because that land belonged to jews back then! :Emoji47:; lets give back england to the viking then! :Emoji48:, lets give back the entire wrold to people who lived there ten thousand years ago! :Emoji48:

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Agreed. If some land would have been abandoned and nobody is having ownership over it, what prevents me to claim it? I saw a documentary that a Arab farmer was being obstructed in his own garden by Zionists placing a settlement there. This goes against the logic and rationality what you @ethnhunt is saying.

Another example. The Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem was build on a place that was empty of any buildings as far as i know before building it. So now suddenly after so many years Zionists that try to speak on behalf of Judaism have come back in the sense of ownership and also try to forcefully claim the place of worship because back in the day that was the location of Temple Mount. You see where i am coming from?

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Originally Posted by Simple_Person

Agreed. If some land would have been abandoned and nobody is having ownership over it, what prevents me to claim it? I saw a documentary that a Arab farmer was being obstructed in his own garden by Zionists placing a settlement there. This goes against the logic and rationality what you @ethnhunt is saying.

Another example. The Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem was build on a place that was empty of any buildings as far as i know before building it. So now suddenly after so many years Zionists that try to speak on behave of Judaism have come back in the sense of ownership and also try to forcefully claim the place of worship because back in the day that was the location of Temple Mount. You see where i am coming from?

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yup! Agreed!

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Originally Posted by AbdullahAziz

lol bro you cannot go back thousands of years and claim rights to a land because that land belonged to jews back then! :Emoji47:; lets give back england to the viking then! :Emoji48:, lets give back the entire wrold to people who lived there ten thousand years ago! :Emoji48:

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I absolutely agree with you that previous history has nothing to do with the modern reality. And I am not suggesting that the Jews claim the land only due Jewish past history in Judea or their religious commandments.

We live in the modern world, and, today, legitimacy of any country is predicated on UN's decision to establish the country, which is by default a recognition of said country by the majority of the World, and an ability of said country to defend its boundaries. That is all.

UN, as you know, made a historic decision to create Israel and Palestine. Therefore, it is a recognized international entity and Israel is also able to defend itself. So, - the formula is fulfilled.

Palestine never materialized due to a conflict that was started by Arabs. As you know, it was an Arab country of Jordan that deprived Palestinians from forming their own country. Israel had nothing to do with that anytime from 1948 until 1968. Jordan governed that land, commonly known today as a West Bank.

So, - Israel did not steal any land, nor it occupied any land any time before 1968. After 1968, Israel has had an open offer to Palestinian Arabs that can be summarized as follows, - give up belligerence, demilitarize, stop working towards replacing the Jews with Muslims by legislative means or otherwise, and recognize Israel as a Jewish State. That is all, - and Palestine as a country may proceed at any time.

Jews can be persuaded to share the land, but the Muslims, so far, do not even want to theoretically contemplate coexistence. This is not my supposition, this is from PA-Hamas own statements. There is no 'live and let live' in a PA-Hamas vocabulary. I hope you see the problem.

Anyhow, to address your initial point, - here is an example of a modern history. Let's not focus on Israel. Focus on Jordan for example. UN made modern Jordan in 1946. League of nations mandate was used by French to create Lebanon in 1943, Syria in 1941, etc.

As you see, - previous history notwithstanding here. The World makes a decision and we are done. Somehow the Christians are not saying that Lebanon is occupying their land. In the same spirit, Israel is there just like any other country in the region.

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Originally Posted by Simple_Person

Agreed. If some land would have been abandoned and nobody is having ownership over it, what prevents me to claim it?

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I agree. In fact as thin as international law is, still if international law will recognize your right to settle the land that has no other claims to it. The problem is that you are implying that Israel somehow did that. That never happened. Israel never settle the land that was claimed by another entity only. It only settled the land that is either claimed by Israel or internationally recognized as a part of Israel. Perhaps you are referring to a disputed land.

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Originally Posted by Simple_Person

I saw a documentary that a Arab farmer was being obstructed in his own garden by Zionists placing a settlement there. This goes against the logic and rationality what you @ethnhunt is saying.

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No it doesn't. I agree with you that the optics of what you saw is terrible. The question is, - do you know all the details of what you saw? This is a complicated conflict and many people suffer and continuing to suffer as a result of it, including the farmer the video you saw. The farmer is represented by Palestinian Authority (PA) . It is PA that needs to address this problem with Israel. Do they do that? NO! The Farmer continues to suffer as a result.

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Originally Posted by Simple_Person

Another example. The Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem was build on a place that was empty of any buildings as far as i know before building it. So now suddenly after so many years Zionists that try to speak on behalf of Judaism have come back in the sense of ownership and also try to forcefully claim the place of worship because back in the day that was the location of Temple Mount. You see where i am coming from?

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The Al-Aqsa Mosque was built on the ruins of Jewish temple. It is a part of a Temple Mount, as you correctly noted. Temple Mount is a part of Jerusalem. Jerusalem is a part of Israel. So, - the sovereignty of Al-Aqsa Mosque is in the hands of the Government of Israel. However, the Guardian of Al-Aqsa Mosque is the King of Jordan, and its day to day affairs are administered by VAKF, which is a Jordanian religious authority. It is a working compromise.

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Originally Posted by ethnhunt

I absolutely agree with you that previous history has nothing to do with the modern reality. And I am not suggesting that the Jews claim the land only due Jewish past history in Judea or their religious commandments.

We live in the modern world, and, today, legitimacy of any country is predicated on UN's decision to establish the country, which is by default a recognition of said country by the majority of the World, and an ability of said country to defend its boundaries. That is all.

UN, as you know, made a historic decision to create Israel and Palestine. Therefore, it is a recognized international entity and Israel is also able to defend itself. So, - the formula is fulfilled.

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Here is the error made by many. When talked about UN, suddenly here the full stop is drawn. However, if we still use "the logic" of UN, we talk about for example international law. By whom is this guarded countries don't go over the line? As far as i know again UN or institution under UN. So UN has with the decision to make Israel, which again by NORMAL logic is contradictory to taking land from other people and giving it to them, while we would rather say give them a piece of Germany instead ;). But never mind this, we know of the 6 day war with Israel and the Arabs in 1967. The borders before that event were acknowledged by UN. Now 1967-2017 it's gonna be 50 years soon. UN does not recognize those new borders that Israel keeps making, yet as far as i know and do correct me NOTHING is done against these illegal events that go against this so called international law. Every time something has been done, US veto's on behalf of Israel..so again UN is kind of useless.

So would you say UN is a reliable party that guards treaties? For me personally i see them as a mafia group. They make the rules and who every does not abide by THEIR rules, is wrong..o_O!!. Who said we agreed to play according to your rules? In the past i did not know that this criminal organization aka mafia group had also other institutions under them. However when i looked i was shocked..IMF being one of those.

This reminds me of i believe 16 century in the times of pirates. The British had all kind of laws, pirates however wanted to be free and not abide by those laws. They were branded as criminals just because they did not want to abide by those laws ;D.
There is much going on but nothing is being said. For example, as i already mentioned IMF, Christine Lagarde of the IMF joining the Bilderberg meetings. No camera's are allowed big secret meeting. Most people would say conspiracy lunatic, well Bilderberg meetings are not conspiracy..as you can find enough footage of people of the private sector, politicians you name it join the meetings once a year. However as far as i know it is rather a western/NATO party exclusive as the Turks also join in.

Israel never wanted to two states. They were fooling anyone who believes that. What they want is the creation of greater israel, which consists of all whole of palestine, lebanon, syria, jordan and parts of north africa (egypt). they are awaiting for their messiah to come and he won't come until they build the king solomon temple on top of masjid aqsa and establish greater israel. Anyone believe in any two state resolutions or israel making peace is only deluding themselves of the reality of what is and what is planned.

I for one am not saddened by this end hope of two-state solution. If you know your deen then you know it's not going to happen. 60 years of occupation and oppression isn't magically going away with 2 states. Palestine has to be taken over so the mahdi can liberate it once again.

well, two places of pilgrimage are allowed..

if you have the money and the appropriate visas.

why not visit while you can?

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Originally Posted by ethnhunt

I absolutely agree with you that previous history has nothing to do with the modern reality. And I am not suggesting that the Jews claim the land only due Jewish past history in Judea or their religious commandments.

We live in the modern world, and, today, legitimacy of any country is predicated on UN's decision to establish the country, which is by default a recognition of said country by the majority of the World, and an ability of said country to defend its boundaries. That is all.

UN, as you know, made a historic decision to create Israel and Palestine. Therefore, it is a recognized international entity and Israel is also able to defend itself. So, - the formula is fulfilled.

Palestine never materialized due to a conflict that was started by Arabs. As you know, it was an Arab country of Jordan that deprived Palestinians from forming their own country. Israel had nothing to do with that anytime from 1948 until 1968. Jordan governed that land, commonly known today as a West Bank.

So, - Israel did not steal any land, nor it occupied any land any time before 1968. After 1968, Israel has had an open offer to Palestinian Arabs that can be summarized as follows, - give up belligerence, demilitarize, stop working towards replacing the Jews with Muslims by legislative means or otherwise, and recognize Israel as a Jewish State. That is all, - and Palestine as a country may proceed at any time.

Jews can be persuaded to share the land, but the Muslims, so far, do not even want to theoretically contemplate coexistence. This is not my supposition, this is from PA-Hamas own statements. There is no 'live and let live' in a PA-Hamas vocabulary. I hope you see the problem.

Anyhow, to address your initial point, - here is an example of a modern history. Let's not focus on Israel. Focus on Jordan for example. UN made modern Jordan in 1946. League of nations mandate was used by French to create Lebanon in 1943, Syria in 1941, etc.

As you see, - previous history notwithstanding here. The World makes a decision and we are done. Somehow the Christians are not saying that Lebanon is occupying their land. In the same spirit, Israel is there just like any other country in the region.

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UN is nothing but a USA tool my friend; it is run by and ruled by the USA so to say the UN decides is really not considering the reality of the UN being a zionist opressive organisation; a 'tool' for USA and UK to implement their evil in this world


us humans really have to have a sense of justice and not use UN to justify our prejudices, hate, evil etc etc.


Bottom line is the poor Palestinians have had their land taken from them and their being severely oppressed ever since and we need to rectify that as humans otherwise we will just be another oppressor supporting oppression

I am always amused over conversations about Israel and the occupation.

If the Jews were to disarm, hahahaha, that made me laugh so much.

IF THE JEWS WERE TO DISARM :D WAHAHAHAHAAA.

*cough* anyway, back to the programme...

Oh wait? we on commercial break? wahaha, IF JEWS WERE TO DISARM :D sorry. That just makes me laugh.

Scimi

..well the whole place is a fight.

if any of us were to disarm.

surely people would que up to fill a plate on any weakness.

sins, illness, poverty..

honestly, just depends on who your here with.. and how good your answers are.
..
..
your either going to have to be sinless or very strong.. wheres that defence budget?

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Originally Posted by AbdullahAziz

UN is nothing but a USA tool my friend; it is run by and ruled by the USA so to say the UN decides is really not considering the reality of the UN being a zionist opressive organisation; a 'tool' for USA and UK to implement their evil in this world

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And yet in the USA, the U.N. is seen as a Muslim controlled organization that uses Russia Veto power to prevent the “peaceful” countries from installing democracy everywhere.

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Originally Posted by Scimitar

I am always amused over conversations about Israel and the occupation.

If the Jews were to disarm, hahahaha, that made me laugh so much.

IF THE JEWS WERE TO DISARM :D WAHAHAHAHAAA.

*cough* anyway, back to the programme...

Oh wait? we on commercial break? wahaha, IF JEWS WERE TO DISARM :D sorry. That just makes me laugh.

Scimi

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I think Israelis is a better term than the ambiguous “Jews”. Most religious Jews I know are pacifists or shun violence. Not every Jew is a Zionist invader bent on killing innocents. We should be better than the people that lump an entire religion into a bunch of evil dowers because of the action of a few.