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    Israel land grab law 'ends hope of two-state solution' (OP)


    Salaam

    With Trump in power, Netanyahu has a free hand.


    Israel land grab law 'ends hope of two-state solution'


    Land grab law 'allows theft, stalls peace process'

    Law that retroactively legalises settler homes on private Palestinian land widely condemned as legitimising theft.


    Israel's land grab law that retroactively legalises thousands of settlement homes in the occupied West Bank legitimises theft, violates international law and ends the prospect of a two-state solution, according to politicians, legal experts and human rights groups.

    The so-called "Regulation Bill" instantly drew wide condemnation as it was voted in by members of the Knesset late on Monday with a 60 to 52 majority.

    The law applies to about 4,000 settlement homes in the West Bank for which settlers could prove ignorance that they had built on privately owned Palestinian land and had received encouragement from the Israeli state to do so.

    Three Israeli NGOs - Peace Now, Yesh Din and the Association for Civil Rights in Israel - and numerous Palestinians said they intend to petition the Supreme Court to cancel the law.

    UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres said on Tuesday in a statement: "This bill is in contravention of international law and will have far reaching legal consequences for Israel."

    The EU's foreign policy chief Federica Mogherini said in a statement that the bloc "condemns" the law and urges against its implementation "to avoid measures that further raise tensions and endanger the prospects for a peaceful solution to the conflict".

    Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said the law was an aggression against the Palestinian people.

    "That bill is contrary to international law," Abbas said following a meeting with French President Francois Hollande in Paris. "This is an aggression against our people that we will be opposing in international organisations.

    "What we want is peace ... but what Israel does is to work toward one state based on apartheid."

    Hollande called on Israel to go back on the law, saying it would "pave the way for an annexation, de-facto, of the occupied territories, which would be contrary to the two-state solution".

    Hours before Abbas' meeting with Hollande, Saeb Erekat, secretary general of the Palestinian Liberation Organisation, told the Associated Press news agency that the law puts "the last nail in the coffin of the two-state solution".

    Calling the move "theft", Erekat said the ruling showed "the Israeli government trying to legalise looting Palestinian land".

    The Arab League also accused Israel of "stealing the land" from Palestinians.

    "The law in question is only a cover for stealing the land and appropriating the property of Palestinians," said the head of the Cairo-based organisation, Ahmed Aboul Gheit.

    Palestinian owners will be compensated financially or with other land, but cannot negotiate their terms.

    The law is a continuation of "Israeli policies aimed at eliminating any possibility of a two-state solution and the establishment of an independent Palestinian state", Aboul Gheit said.

    Jordan, one of the few Arab states to have diplomatic ties with Israel, also denounced what it called "a provocative law likely to kill any hope of a two-state solution".

    According to the UN envoy for the Middle East peace process, Nickolay Mladenov, the law crosses a "very thick red line" towards annexation of the occupied West Bank, and sets a "very dangerous precedent".

    Speaking to the AFP news agency, he said: "This is the first time the Israeli Knesset legislates in the occupied Palestinian lands and particularly on property issues."

    He also raised the possibility the law could open Israel up to potential prosecution at the International Criminal Court, a threat Israel's own top government lawyer, attorney general Avichai Mandelblit, has also warned of.

    Mladenov called for strong international condemnation of the legislation but declined to criticise the US after President Donald Trump's administration refused to comment on it.

    Trump is more sympathetic to Israel's settlement policies than previous US presidents; the Israeli government has approved plans to build thousands of new homes on occupied territory since the far-right leader settled into the White House.

    "I think that is a very preliminary statement," Mladenov said. "Obviously they do need to consult, this is a new administration that has just come into office and they should be given the time and the space to find their policies."

    White House spokesman Sean Spicer said the US was likely to discuss the law with Netanyahu when the Israeli prime minister visits on February 15, but did not comment further in a press briefing on Tuesday.

    David Harris, head of AJC, the global Jewish advocacy organisation, said that "Israel's High Court can and should reverse this misguided legislation" ahead of Netanyahu's meeting with Trump in February.

    That was also the message from Defence Minister Avigdor Lieberman, who said last week: "The chance that it will be struck down by the Supreme Court is 100 percent."

    'Against all international laws'

    International law considers all settlements to be illegal, but Israel distinguishes between those it sanctions and those it does not, dubbed outposts.

    A Palestinian Cabinet minister also called on the international community for support.

    "Nobody can legalise the theft of the Palestinian lands. Building settlements is a crime, building settlements is against all international laws," said Palestinian Tourism and Antiquities Minister Rula Maayaa. "I think it is time now for the international community to act concretely to stop the Israelis from these crimes."

    Nabil Abu Rdeneh, a spokesman for Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, called the law "unacceptable" and urged the international community to act immediately.

    "This is an escalation that would only lead to more instability and chaos," Rdeneh said.

    Palestinians want the occupied West Bank, east Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip - territories Israel occupied in the 1967 Middle East war - for their future state.

    The international community views settlements as illegal and an obstacle to reaching peace.

    Shortly before leaving office, US President Barack Obama allowed the UN Security Council to pass a resolution declaring settlements illegal.

    Tobias Ellwood, Britain's Middle East minister, also condemned the land grab bill, saying it "is of great concern that the bill paves the way for significant growth in settlements deep in the West Bank".

    Yuval Shany, an international law professor at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, said the law violates basic rights, interferes with property rights and is discriminatory because it regulates only the transfer of land from Palestinians to Jews.

    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/02/israel-land-grab-law-ends-hope-state-solution-170207143602924.html
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    Re: Israel land grab law 'ends hope of two-state solution'

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    Quote Originally Posted by AbdullahAziz View Post
    no probs mate the Mahdi is coming to sort you lot out!
    I appreciate the strength of your convictions. I think that it is commendable that you feel the way you do.

    I agree that justice will prevail. You may wait for Mahdi, and I am sure he is coming...but the Jews are also waiting and the Christians are waiting too.

    So far nobody came, but the people are suffering. Is it not better to solve the problem while we all wait?

    All must have justice, not just "...your lot, mate..." Get it?

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    Re: Israel land grab law 'ends hope of two-state solution'

    Quote Originally Posted by ethnhunt View Post
    Finkelstein know all this all too well, but he chooses not to look at hard facts. Occupation has been around for 50 years now and the longer we wait the more it becomes permanent. Do understand that Israel has claims to that land, - very good and substantive claims. Palestinian Arabs already have a country, - its Jordan. So, - in the absents of any negotiation posture from PA, Israel may annex Area C and put an end any dream of independent Palestine. I think that is exactly how it will go down, if Palestinians do not act in their best interest and negotiate with Israel instead of demanding what they can never have, - the East Jerusalem, the return of refugees and Israeli retreat to the boundaries of 1948. Negotiations presume a compromise, - and the Arabs have yet to show an understanding of what that realty means.
    Brothers and sisters, pay attention. Israel's alleged legitimate claims matter, but Palestinian legitimate claims don't, then all that matters then is what it's allegedly in the Palestinians' interest to concede for their own good.

    This is the mark of a scam artist with an agenda. He simultaneously advances two, mutually exclusive positions, as long as both serve his purpose. That, while spending this thread going in and out, answering posts when he thinks he can score rhetorical points, but dodging as soon as he finds himself unable to answer in a way that doesn't support his agenda here.

    I will start downrepping his posts, and I encourage others to do the same in order to get him banned. I say that as someone who has opposed such collective downrep bannings in the past.

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    Re: Israel land grab law 'ends hope of two-state solution'

    Quote Originally Posted by Futuwwa View Post
    Brothers and sisters, pay attention. Israel's alleged legitimate claims matter, but Palestinian legitimate claims don't, then all that matters then is what it's allegedly in the Palestinians' interest to concede for their own good.

    This is the mark of a scam artist with an agenda. He simultaneously advances two, mutually exclusive positions, as long as both serve his purpose. That, while spending this thread going in and out, answering posts when he thinks he can score rhetorical points, but dodging as soon as he finds himself unable to answer in a way that doesn't support his agenda here.

    I will start downrepping his posts, and I encourage others to do the same in order to get him banned. I say that as someone who has opposed such collective downrep bannings in the past.
    What??? What are you talking about??? When did I EVER say that Palestinian Arabs do not have legitimate claims? You are making this up. Stop it! All people in the Land of former British-mandated Palestine have LEGITIMATE CLAIMS. All people, - the Jews the Muslims and the Christians too. Fair?

    I said that the Palestinian Arabs agenda does not include living next to Israel. Their agenda calls for eventual replacement of Israel with a new country, - Palestine. The Palestinian leadership does not really hide this. Hamas says it outright. However, - Mr. Abbas, as a head of PA, does not say it, but he absolutely behaves as if he actually says it.

    Look at PA negotiating posture towards Israel! LOOK AT IT AND WEAP! PA demands nothing less than an absolute and eventual demise of Israel as a state, as a MINIMUM prerequisite to the opening of the negotiating process. This is a fact! Look at what the PA teaches kids at their schools! Their textbooks glorify murder of Jews and call for the conquest of the entire former British Palestine. Listen to the sermons in Mosques in the West Bank where the calls for violence are done every week. Look at the polls conducted over the years that show that the majority of Palestinian Arabs have been conditioned to believe that one day the Jews will either depart of be pushed away into the sea.

    Are you even remotely aware that Israel routinely offers settlement deals to PA? In 2000 Israel offered 97% of what Mr. Arafat was demanding and Arafat said NO! Same thing happened in 2007 with Mr. Abbas. They were the deals of the century and the Arabs did not take them! WHY? …One reason only, - the Arab agenda is not to negotiate. PA has not EVER reduced their demands, even a little bit. It is ALL OR NOTHING with them. At the minimum Israel stops existing! DO YOU GET IT?

    How can you possibly accuse me of unfair attitude towards Palestinians? How dare you to call me a “…scam artist…”.

    Palestinian Arabs legitimate claims must center on what they lost in 1968, nothing more! What they lost is not a country. They never had a country to lose.

    Palestinian Arabs must not be angry at the Israelis, they must be angry at the Jordanians. It was Jordan that captured the land of Palestine in 1948 and kept it to itself, until Israel kicked the Jordanians out in 1967, AFTER Jordan conspired with Egypt and Syria to attack Israel. Why is that the Jordan NEVER set up the state of Palestine in the West Bank as UN intended in 1948? Why Palestinian Arabs never complained about it until 1967. They were very happy to live under Jordanian administration. It was only when Israel took over, the Palestinian Arabs started screaming about their rights to form their own state.

    It is crystal clear to all who can think in a logical fashion that Palestinian Arabs and Jordanian Arabs are the same people. They have no desire to negotiate with Israel. When Palestinian Arabs lived in Jordanian West Bank they were happy. But they do not want to live under Israeli rule and Jordan does not want then either.

    So, - their legitimate claims is to get compensated for that lost in 1968, - nothing more. If they want a country, then they must negotiated with Israel. So far they have no appetite for that. Negotiating presumes a compromise that both parties must be prepared to make. Israelis have shown a great deal of compromises here, - look up the offer in 2000 as an example. What compromises have the Arabs shown? NOTHING! Take a look at Saudi Peace Plan of 2002 that PA indorsed and you will see that it calls for Israel to commit suicide. Great plan!

    Anyway, - you are a demagogue and sophist and you have no understanding of the complexities of the Palestinian-Israeli crisis. I can support everything I say with logic and facts. Can you do the same? The glove is thrown, - pick it up if dare.

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    Re: Israel land grab law 'ends hope of two-state solution'

    Quote Originally Posted by ethnhunt View Post
    Anyway, - you are a demagogue and sophist and you have no understanding of the complexities of the Palestinian-Israeli crisis. I can support everything I say with logic and facts. Can you do the same? The glove is thrown, - pick it up if dare.
    As they say in Internet gaming, gr8 b8 m8

    Whereas in this actual thread, you're the one who ignored my latest reply to you (nr 73, as it happens), much like you have done with much everyone else here, then you come back later and spam the same talking points with which you opened. My conclusion in my last post stands, and so does my call to get you kicked out by downrepping your posts. If you intend to convince me otherwise, you will have to make a demonstration of good faith, which includes but is not limited to treating people with a basic level of respect.

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    Re: Israel land grab law 'ends hope of two-state solution'

    We dont want Israel to commit suicide but want them not to commit genocide.
    Israel land grab law 'ends hope of two-state solution'

    If you have broken a heart, what you offer is not Salah..

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    Re: Israel land grab law 'ends hope of two-state solution'

    Quote Originally Posted by Futuwwa View Post
    …you're the one who ignored my latest reply to you (nr 73, as it happens), much like you have done with much everyone else here, then you come back later and spam the same talking points with which you opened. My conclusion in my last post stands, and so does my call to get you kicked out by downrepping your posts. If you intend to convince me otherwise, you will have to make a demonstration of good faith, which includes but is not limited to treating people with a basic level of respect.
    WOW! Is that all? Let’s see here…, - you call me a “..scam artist…”, whereas I called you a “demagogue and sophist”. Who is disrespectful here? I ignored your last post (#73) because you said absolutely nothing worth replying too. You just ‘speak’ for the sake of speaking, with no substance, so I did not reply. You made no “conclusion’ in your last post. However, do not just take my word for it. Let’s look together at your last post, you know…the one you mention here, - number 73.

    Quote Originally Posted by Futuwwa View Post
    You ask me to refute the assertions you make about what the facts of the Arab-Israeli conflict are, talking about them as if they were indisputable historical facts. Meanwhile, when I make assertions, you simply wave them away as untrue.
    Great stuff! What assertions are those? Where are they? Certainly nothing here as we can see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Futuwwa View Post
    I will not consent to discuss the matter based on the premise that you get to dictate anything you say as fact, and that anyone who disagrees with what the facts are has the burden of proof. Nor should anyone else.
    Well, - please bring your own facts! But you do not do that. You just ‘talk’ about doing it. I, on the other hand, substantiate everything I wrote. Please do point out, any, I do mean, ANY point that I raised in this thread that is not based on fact. I challenge you to do that!

    We all have a burden of proof upon us, - you and me. I am good with that. Please, - you are free to argue anything and attempt to disprove anything that I wrote, and indeed the proof will be upon me to deliver. Anytime m8te! But you do not argue anything! You just accuse and slander. Methinks you have nothing to say. Common…prove me wrong!

    Quote Originally Posted by Futuwwa View Post
    Also, if you actually want the discussion to lead somewhere, I suggest you start treating the other participants as equals and operate on a premise of mutual rationality and good faith. Not on the premise that we are brainwashed and that you should educate us.
    Very well. I am sorry that you feel that way. But I fail to see where have I ever shown a lack of “…mutual rationality and good faith…’. Please point me at that direction!

    Quote Originally Posted by Futuwwa View Post
    There is neither a singular "Palestinian cause" nor "Israeli cause", nor agenda. Both populations are agglomerations of people with varying and layered wants, which is why any faction within either side trying to engage in a peace process is constrained by the internal politics and internal disagreements within that side.
    Really? No agenda??? Both the PA and Israel disagree with you. You want proof? Here it is, - the political platforms for both entities are published!!!! Look it up!

    Well, - the PA agenda is only one page long, but Israelis pretty much wrote a book. Look up Clinton parameters of year 2000. You know, - what Arafat did not agree too. Sure, he was only offered 97% of what he was asking for, - not good enough, right!

    “…agglomerations of people with varying and layered wants…”. Perhaps you are talking about the Palestinian Arab side. Certainly the Israelis are talking with a unified voice coming out from their Government. The Arabs, on the other hand, can’t agree on virtually anything.

    Within PA , there are several factions with diametrically opposed views on how to proceed to deal with Israel. Hamas is totally different from all PA faction to boot. There “agglomerations of people” on the Arab side, but there are none on Israeli side. What Israel has is a number of different parties and organizations that disagree with the Government, but they DO NOT speak for the country.

    What are you trying to say here? Are you telling me that PA disagrees with Israel? We all know that. If they were to agree we’d not have this mess. You are stating the obvious. Why don’t you think about how to solve this mess instead? It is infinitely more difficult to do that, than simply to appear that you understand the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Futuwwa View Post
    If both groups are of equal rights, it would follow that a just peace is one based on the premise that both groups have an equal right to the land, that neither should get more than the other, or get anything the other doesn't get in equal measure. From that, it would follow that if either side attempts to force an inequal outcome on the other, it is guilty of committing injustice, no?
    No. I do not think that PA is an equal to Israel. Israel is a sovereign state with developed economy and infrastructure, while PA leads people with no country and economy. However, that aside, let’s assume for a moment that they are equal. So, it is now simple to solve the conflict, right? Arabs get what they want and the Jews get what they want, right? Is that what you are saying? Hmm…it’d be great if that were possible. What do the Arabs want? I asked you to enumerate that, - but you never did. Perhaps you do not know. So, - I did that for you (post #59). Did you read that post?

    The awful truth is that PA has so far rejected ALL offers that were made by Israel in an effort to solve this conflict. It is a fact and not just my words. Would you like a poof or you are going to accuse me of ‘scamming’ you? Google the offers made to PA by Israel in 2000, commonly known as Clinton Parameters. Google the offer made in 2007. Google the agreement of 1993.

    Read the data and after you are done, try to find anything emanating from PA as a counterproposal. All you will find is a Saudi Peace Plan of 2002, - a one page document, asking Israel to take a number of steps that would lead to its demise as a country, in other words, asking Israel to commit suicide. That Plan was approved by PA. Need I say more? Or you would ask me to post the relevant links? Do it yourself! But do not accuse me of stating anything without substance.

    Anyway, - I just went through your post #73. What do we have here? You say nothing. You propose nothing. You solve nothing. You show no understanding of complexities of issues, nor do you show any depth of carrying out a discussion. Surely, we do not have a discussion here, as you do not contribute at all. But you sure do accuse and threaten. Here are the points for the record that I made in my previous post #59. You may Google any of them to see the historical and factual proof of fact. All of the points below are a fact. I challenge you to focus on any of them and dispute it! Do it! As they say in Internet gaming, consider yourself gr8tly b8ted, m8!

    The following is on record and in public domain:
    Here are the PA and Israeli opening negotiating positions:

    1) PA demands control, at a minimum, of all of East Jerusalem – while Israel requires that the entire city remain united under Israeli sovereignty.
    Interestingly, - Jerusalem is not even that holy to Muslims. It is never mentioned in the Quran; it is mentioned 700 times in the Jewish holy books. No Arab leader, except Jordan’s King Hussein, ever visited Jerusalem when Arabs controlled it from 1948-67. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any country except Israel.

    2) The PA demands that every Jew must be ejected from their future state, meaning the 800,000 Jews in East Jerusalem-West Bank must leave. That will never happen.

    3) PA insists that millions of descendants of Palestinian “refugees,” created by the 1948 Arab aggression against Israel, be allowed to move to Israel. Every Israeli government, from Left to Right, unequivocally rejects this, because it means overwhelming Israel with a hostile population and ending Israel as a Jewish state.

    4) PA also demands a “contiguous” state that connects Gaza to West Bank, thereby cutting Israel into two separate pieces. Israel obviously cannot agree to this demand either, if Israel wishes to remain in existence.

    5) PA refuses to agree to Israel’s basic demand for recognition as the Jewish state.

    6) PA refuses to sign a peace deal that “ends all claims” against Israel. Israel cannot agree to any agreement that does not include such a clause.

    7) PA demands that Israel must free all Palestinian-Arab prisoners in Israeli jails, regardless of offences. Of course, Israel won’t release thousands of unrepentant convicted murderers and attempted murderers.

    8) With respect to security, Israel, at a minimum, must maintain control over the major Jewish communities in West Bank, and, as Netanyahu said, Israel needs “overriding security control over the entire area west of the Jordan River,” because “otherwise we’ll get another radical Islamic terrorist state in the Palestinian areas exploding the peace, exploding the Middle East.”
    9) Israel requires that it continue the Gaza weapons blockade, but, the PA says it will never accept this.

    10) Netanyahu explained in 2009 during his speech at Bar-Ilan University, any Palestinian-Arab state needs to be “demilitarized” – meaning that it cannot have an army, control its airspace, forge military pacts with the likes of Hezbollah and Iran, and import weapons, and must be subject to strong measures to prevent weapons smuggling. The PA opposes all of these Israeli security requirements.

    Palestinian state asks Israel to give up irreversible tangibles (i.e., land) for intangible peace promises, Israel needs partners who keep their promises. But the PA broke its repeated Oslo and other agreements to combat and stop inciting terror, collect illegal weapons, outlaw terrorist groups and preserve and provide Jews access to Jewish holy sites in PA territory.

    No sane person or a country will ever agree to what PA is asking. Has PA ever soften its position? No, never! What does it tell you? It can only mean one thing, - PA has no desire to negotiate.

    Please, - do try to show how wrong I really am or how much do I really spam. In fact, I wish I were wrong, because then, if I were, we would have a hope for peace.
    Last edited by ethnhunt; 06-01-2017 at 11:49 PM.

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    Re: Israel land grab law 'ends hope of two-state solution'

    Quote Originally Posted by anatolian View Post
    We dont want Israel to commit suicide but want them not to commit genocide.
    Indeed, I do agree with you. I assure you that nobody in Israel would ever commit genocide.

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    Re: Israel land grab law 'ends hope of two-state solution'

    u mad?

    In my first post to you, where I contested your assertion that the Palestinian Authority is the party that isn't compromising, I mentioned what broad terms it has been ready to accept in a peace treaty, despite those terms being severely inequal. You rejected my statement as untrue out of hand, and said essentially "No, this is the PA position...". So we disagree on what the facts are. You act as you just get to wave away my assertions on what the facts are with a hand-wave, while I have to prove any of your assertions wrong, or keep googling until I find out that you are right. If I call you out for expecting to carry out the discussion under such rules, I'm obviously not going to continue the discussion until we have that sorted out. You didn't even think my calling-out of you warranted a reply.

    If you wonder where you've shown a lack of respect, reread your posts. You keep belitting others' knowledge and understanding of the subject, telling them they only think the way they do because they've been taught about it in a biased way, etc. You act like you're here to educate us poor brainwashed troglodytes, not carry out a symmetric two-way discussion.

    My assessment of you is largely unchanged. If you want to continue, you will have to eat a healthy dose of humble pie and persuade me you're worth my time. I have nothing to gain from winning a debate against you, it very much seems like any audience we have is already agreeing with me. You, on the other hand, seem very eager to engage me, from how hard you try to bait me. How about you take your own advice that you oh-so-helpfully offer the Palestinians, i.e. accept that your bargaining position sucks and need comply with the demands of the stronger party (that would be me) or get nothing of what you want?
    Last edited by Futuwwa; 06-02-2017 at 12:25 PM.

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    Re: Israel land grab law 'ends hope of two-state solution'

    Quote Originally Posted by ethnhunt View Post
    Indeed, I do agree with you. I assure you that nobody in Israel would ever commit genocide.
    Maybe we cant talk about a "massive" massacre compressed in a short period as we saw in the past events of mankind but Israel's deliberate Palestinian massacre extended to a long period is "almost" a genocide. They seek to kill as much Palestinian as they can in each conflict. So, "somebody" in Israel is commiting it.
    Israel land grab law 'ends hope of two-state solution'

    If you have broken a heart, what you offer is not Salah..

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    Re: Israel land grab law 'ends hope of two-state solution'

    Quote Originally Posted by anatolian View Post
    So, "somebody" in Israel is commiting it.
    That somebody, who have no shame murdering people, is the "Jewish State of Israel" as they like to be referred as.

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    Re: Israel land grab law 'ends hope of two-state solution'

    Quote Originally Posted by Futuwwa View Post
    u mad?
    I am not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Futuwwa View Post
    In my first post to you, where I contested your assertion that the Palestinian Authority is the party that isn't compromising, I mentioned what broad terms it has been ready to accept in a peace treaty, despite those terms being severely inequal. You rejected my statement as untrue out of hand, and said essentially "No, this is the PA position...". So we disagree on what the facts are.
    I looked through the thread. I do not see where you mentioned that PA is ready to either negotiate or agree to anything that Israel proposed. If I missed it, please repost with my apologies.
    Now, - back to the mundane…Here is a link from World Security Network

    (https://www.worldsecuritynetwork.com...ting-Positions)

    They simply re-post the data available from diplomatic sources with rather neutral commentaries. Kind of raw data if you will. So, - their material is not skewed to one side or another. You can simply go to the link I posted if you wish, but I will quote from that source below for your convenience. Before I do that, I would like to tell you that it was you who asked for proof. Well, - here it is!



    “This is a quick, brief guide to the negotiating positions of Israel's government and the Palestinian Authority (PA).

    Israeli Negotiating Position

    Two-State Solution: Israel accepts a two-state solution--including an independent Palestinian state-only under conditions it believes would lead to real and lasting peace.
    It is a myth that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu only recently accepted this goal or did so only under U.S. pressure. In fact, he agreed to this as an outcome of negotiations in 1996.

    Israel has put forward five conditions:

    · Recognition of Israel as a Jewish state. Without this step, the aftermath of any "peace" agreement would be additional decades of Arab effort to destroy Israel in all but-temporarily-name.

    · Absolute clarity that a peace agreement ends the conflict and all claims on Israel. Otherwise, the Palestinian leadership and much of the Arab world would regard any "peace" agreement as license for a new stage of battle using Palestine as a base for renewed attacks and demands.

    · Strong security arrangements and serious international guarantees for them. Have no doubt; these will be tested by cross-border attacks from Palestine.

    · An unmilitarized Palestinian state (a better description than "demilitarized"), with the large security forces already existing: enough for internal security and defense but not aggression.

    · Palestinian refugees must be resettled in Palestine. The Palestinian demand for a "Right of Return" is just a rationale for wiping Israel off the map through internal subversion and civil war.

    The PA basically rejects all of these conditions. While the first one-"Jewish state"-is debatable, the rest are obviously reasonable.

    Issues to be decided in negotiations

    In addition to these points, other issues under negotiation are less specifically delineated. The main issues are:

    · Jerusalem: Israel's general position has been that Jerusalem is the eternal capital of Israel and cannot be divided. However, previous governments have offered most or almost all of east Jerusalem to a Palestinian state. Unless the Palestinians make a very positive offer it is unlikely that the current government turn over all or most of east Jerusalem, yet is should be noted that the previous governments referred to were headed by Ehud Barak who is the coalition partner.

    · Future of Settlements: It is likely that Israel would agree to dismantle all settlements in areas that became part of a Palestinian state (see borders, below)

    · Borders: There is no one specific plan but the basic framework discussed is that the Palestinian state would get 92 to 96 percent of the West Bank with the offer of additional land to be traded to bring the total given up to the area of the West Bank captured by Israel in 1967. This is vital or strategic reasons (for example, a small portion of the main Tel Aviv-Jerusalem road crosses the line) as well as the concept of settlement blocs.

    Settlement blocs refers to the Israeli idea that by annexing a small portion of the West Bank, say 3-5 percent, near the border and relatively uninhabited by Palestinians, Israel can bring a very large proportion of settlers into the country. This would not only have a strategic value, strengthening the border, but also muster a great deal of popular support for the painful concessions needed to make peace. Most of the construction on settlements is in these areas. By stopping the construction, the United States seems to be arguing for a precise return to the pre-1967 borders, thus damaging support for other concessions in Israel, though U.S. policymakers seem completely ignorant of these issues.

    · Compensation: The Palestinian side would probably hear receive tens of billions of dollars in compensation for property confiscated after 1948. There is no discussion of any compensation for Jews displaced in Arab countries or pre-1948 landowners whose property would become part of a Palestinian state.

    Palestinian Authority Negotiating Position

    This is rather simple: Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders, allows any Palestinian refugees who wish to go to live in Israel (Right of Return), and that's about it. There is no offer whatsoever on such things as end of conflict, security guarantees, or limits on the sovereignty of a Palestinian state (can form military alliances, invite in foreign troops, have whatever military it wishes, etc.)

    Moreover, the alternative PA negotiating position is not more flexibility or compromise but the threat to go to armed struggle and to advocate openly a one-state solution (which may be its goal anyway), that is the subsuming of Israel into a Palestinian Arab Muslim state, the basic proposal made by the PLO in the 1960s.

    How does the PA hope to get a state when it is unwilling to compromise? Simple, it expected the U.S. government and Europe to press Israel into giving it everything it wants.

    The Day after Effect, Nothing Can Go Wrong Syndrome

    Western and Arab policymakers often speak as if there will be a peace agreement and that's the end of history. No more war, no more conflict, nothing can go wrong. Israeli policymakers must be more careful and certain that mechanisms are built into any agreement that will ensure it continues.

    Why should a state without serious conditionality be given a Palestinian regime which has failed to govern competently, continued anti-Israel incitement, is profoundly corrupt, has already lost half its patrimony to a more extremist rival, is subject to influence by radical states, etc.

    After all, it is easy to come up with realistic-even highly likely-scenarios for what could happen:

    · Cross-border attacks from Palestine against Israel carried out either by Hamas and other Islamist oppositionists or by factions or even mainstream Fatah cadre. The Palestine government would declare itself unable to stop the attacks, deny they came from its territory, or blame Israel. To argue that a weaker Palestine would not allow such things given its self-interest neglects large portions of Middle East history when such things have happened.

    · Overthrow of the new regime by a more radical group or faction. The government of Palestine would then have all the benefits of statehood and previous Israeli concessions without any intention to live up to prior commitments.

    · A government of Palestine, even one which has signed a peace agreement, could embark on a Stage 2 strategy, which is after all what much of its ideology and key documents advocate, to complete Israel's destruction.

    · A Palestine government could be subverted by radical regimes (at present, Syria and Iran) or it could obtain advanced weapons from Arab states or Iran, or even invite in foreign troops.

    In the face of these and other scenarios, Israel always has a war option. But how much could it depend on the United States and Europe to enforce a peace agreement or support its defensive efforts? Precedent isn't encouraging. Moreover, as a sovereign state, Palestine would have very advantageous options, for example going to the UN where a Muslim-Arab bloc backed by others would declare Israel the aggressor no matter what had happened.

    The bottom line is this: Israel would be worse, not better, off agreeing to such arrangements than it is now.

    Are Things So Terrible Now?

    Those insisting on peace at any price - for Israel that is-often employ two conflicting arguments. On the one hand they claim that Israel is so strong that it can give concessions without receiving equivalent ones, or so weak that it must do so. Yet the country simply does not desperately need a deeply flawed "solution" to be grabbed either out of misplaced "generosity" or "fear."

    This is true because Israel is the stronger party, it has (or can obtain) control over the land in question, and it can resist external pressure both because it is likely to be fairly low and the stakes for Israel's survival are so high.

    Another mistaken conception is that the status quo is intolerable and that any change would be for the better. Yet more risks, concessions, and the establishment of an unstable and hostile Palestinian state--the most likely outcome at present--would make things worse.

    Equally wrong is the notion that time is against Israel, a strong and vibrant society surrounded by weak, disorganized neighbors. Israel's strategic situation has dramatically improved over the decades. It is a strong, confident society visibly meeting the challenge of the modern economic and technical environment.

    But what about the Palestinians? They are certainly suffering. Are their leaders desperate to get a state as quickly as possible and thus willing to be flexible? On the contrary, the history of the PLO, Fatah, and the PA under both Yasir Arafat and Mahmoud Abbas show they are in no such hurry at all. They would rather wait decades than give up the option of total victory in future. They also hope that external pressure will win the day for them. Thus, the worse things are, the better is their situation.”



    I do hope that you take a moment and read the above. This is reality, this is not fluff. I did dismiss your assertions out of hand as you so eloquently stipulate, for a simply reason, which is, - you are wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Futuwwa View Post
    My assessment of you is largely unchanged. If you want to continue, you will have to eat a healthy dose of humble pie and persuade me you're worth my time. I have nothing to gain from winning a debate against you, it very much seems like any audience we have is already agreeing with me. You, on the other hand, seem very eager to engage me, from how hard you try to bait me. How about you take your own advice that you oh-so-helpfully offer the Palestinians, i.e. accept that your bargaining position sucks and need comply with the demands of the stronger party (that would be me) or get nothing of what you want?
    I understand, believe me …I do. The article above that I posted is reflective of the conflict we are discussing. It is crystal clear from that article, and I can post many others from unaffiliated ‘think-tanks’ if you wish, that PA negotiating position is as I stated in my posts here in this thread, - is completely hopeless. PA has no desire to negotiate. PA’s rejectionism is self-evident and glaring from PA’s actions. Yes, - I blame PA for the collapse of the peace process.

    I do understand that you do not like what I wrote, but what I wrote does not change reality on the ground. I do hope that you will find within your worldview a measure enabling you to see facts for what they are and not for what you want them to be. It is unfortunate, but PA negotiating position is totally bankrupt. Palestinians are not getting anywhere under their present leadership.

    I see a gradual annexation of Area C, as a minimum, by Israel as a real possibility in the next 50 years. I also see that Palestinian Arabs may even support that move, as it will give them economic stability that they can never have under PA leadership.
    Last edited by ethnhunt; 06-03-2017 at 01:06 AM.

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    Re: Israel land grab law 'ends hope of two-state solution'

    Quote Originally Posted by anatolian View Post
    Maybe we cant talk about a "massive" massacre compressed in a short period as we saw in the past events of mankind but Israel's deliberate Palestinian massacre extended to a long period is "almost" a genocide. They seek to kill as much Palestinian as they can in each conflict. So, "somebody" in Israel is commiting it.
    Alright...so you say Israel has already committed genocide.

    Perhaps it is a good idea for you to look up an available data on how many Palestinian Arabs have been killed by Israeli forces since 1948. Sounds fair? Why don't you take a look on the net and post here the results. Also, while you are at it, find out how many Israelis died in this conflict and post for all to see. Please also note the circumstances of how the casualties happen.

    We will see if you are correct in your assertions...or not.

    Please note, that Israel, as a stronger party, can completely annihilate anybody in the area, but somehow it has not happened. Genocidal tendencies or behavior would suggest otherwise...don't you think?

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    Re: Israel land grab law 'ends hope of two-state solution'

    One way or another the Palestinians are not going anywhere - Right now Israel is occupying Palestine - the settlements show Israel wants to take most of the land and leave the palestinans scraps. It has no intention of living in peace. It shows day by day as Palestinian land is taken inch by inch day by day.
    Last edited by Zafran; 06-03-2017 at 01:32 AM.
    Israel land grab law 'ends hope of two-state solution'

    The teachings of Islam can fail under no circumstances. With all our systems of culture and civilization, we can not go beyond Islam and, as a matter of fact, no human mind can go beyond the Qur'an.

    (Letter of Goethe to Eckermann, Sir Henry Elliott's collection, 1865)

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    Re: Israel land grab law 'ends hope of two-state solution'

    Quote Originally Posted by ethnhunt View Post
    Please note, that Israel, as a stronger party, can completely annihilate anybody in the area, but somehow it has not happened. Genocidal tendencies or behavior would suggest otherwise...don't you think?
    Uncle sam will not be happy if Israel committed genocide - or the international community for that matter. Nobodies buying your propaganda you know that right - The EU, China and entire international community has condemned Israel - Israel just doesn't heed. Israel has to live with Palestine one way or another.
    Israel land grab law 'ends hope of two-state solution'

    The teachings of Islam can fail under no circumstances. With all our systems of culture and civilization, we can not go beyond Islam and, as a matter of fact, no human mind can go beyond the Qur'an.

    (Letter of Goethe to Eckermann, Sir Henry Elliott's collection, 1865)

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    Re: Israel land grab law 'ends hope of two-state solution'

    Quote Originally Posted by ethnhunt View Post
    Alright...so you say Israel has already committed genocide.

    Perhaps it is a good idea for you to look up an available data on how many Palestinian Arabs have been killed by Israeli forces since 1948. Sounds fair? Why don't you take a look on the net and post here the results. Also, while you are at it, find out how many Israelis died in this conflict and post for all to see. Please also note the circumstances of how the casualties happen.

    We will see if you are correct in your assertions...or not.

    Please note, that Israel, as a stronger party, can completely annihilate anybody in the area, but somehow it has not happened. Genocidal tendencies or behavior would suggest otherwise...don't you think?
    Millions https://sites.google.com/site/palestiniangenocide/

    I think its your duty to mention the Israeli casualities. Genocide was an intended exeggeration. But the general Israeli behaviour in these conflicts since their establishment shows us that killing more Palestinians was always one of their intentions each time. That was more dramatic at the beginning. How do you define Ariel Sharon's massacres in the 50s?
    Israel land grab law 'ends hope of two-state solution'

    If you have broken a heart, what you offer is not Salah..

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    Re: Israel land grab law 'ends hope of two-state solution'

    Quote Originally Posted by ethnhunt View Post
    I do hope that you take a moment and read the above. This is reality, this is not fluff. I did dismiss your assertions out of hand as you so eloquently stipulate, for a simply reason, which is, - you are wrong.
    Nope. You are wrong. Therefore, I dismiss your assertions out of hand.

    Got a problem with that? Well, that's what you've been doing to me this entire time. Only now you're trying to provide actual evidence, after all this time, without admitting any wrongdoing. On the contrary, you defend your previous actions, even as you assert that we all have an equal burden of proof. That's cute.

    Quote Originally Posted by ethnhunt View Post
    I do understand that you do not like what I wrote, but what I wrote does not change reality on the ground. I do hope that you will find within your worldview a measure enabling you to see facts for what they are and not for what you want them to be.
    What did I tell you about respect?

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    Re: Israel land grab law 'ends hope of two-state solution'

    Quote Originally Posted by Futuwwa View Post
    Nope. You are wrong. Therefore, I dismiss your assertions out of hand.

    Got a problem with that?
    Problem? Nor really…Here is the difference between us, - I dismissed your assertions, while providing you with reasons for my statements and supporting those reasons with ample evidence. I provided you with an article from a rather neutral political think-tank to support my view and refute yours. I substantiated my points in a logical and consistent manner. I challenged you to at least attempt to support your views.

    Well, - you didn’t and you clearly couldn’t. All you did, is to say that you simply “…dismiss {my} assertions out of hand…” No reason given. No evidence supplied. You are all ‘talk’ and no substance. However ‘talk’ is cheap!

    Got a problem with that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Futuwwa View Post
    Well, that's what you've been doing to me this entire time. Only now you're trying to provide actual evidence, after all this time, without admitting any wrongdoing. On the contrary, you defend your previous actions, even as you assert that we all have an equal burden of proof. That's cute.
    The burden of proof is incumbent upon BOTH OF US! I did my part! I provided an argument and supported my views. You did not! Yet you talk 'BIG". That's cute.

    Quote Originally Posted by Futuwwa View Post
    What did I tell you about respect?
    Yes, you made it crystal clear that you need respect. I do respect you. I have nothing against you.

    Your views however, are another matter. If you want me to ‘respect’ you views, then provide substance for them, otherwise you are asking for an unreasonable accommodation.

    I do hope that you understand…Please think about it…

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    Re: Israel land grab law 'ends hope of two-state solution'

    Quote Originally Posted by anatolian View Post
    Millions https://sites.google.com/site/palestiniangenocide/

    I think its your duty to mention the Israeli casualities. Genocide was an intended exeggeration. But the general Israeli behaviour in these conflicts since their establishment shows us that killing more Palestinians was always one of their intentions each time. That was more dramatic at the beginning. How do you define Ariel Sharon's massacres in the 50s?
    Look, in order to be taken seriously you should try to get your information from as neutral of a source as possible. What did you do? You quote from a site that is totally and completely biased towards Palestinian Arabs agenda. The data on that site is not believable by any reasonable person. According to what you posted, there were more Arab dead then the number of people that actually lived in the area in question. According to you, there were millions of dead!!!!! Why not billions? Common, even you should admit that this is beyond funny.

    Look at the list of contributors to that site you quoted from, - AHMADINEJAD, Mahmoud, BARGHOUTI. Omar, CASTRO, Fidel, CHAVEZ, Hugo, FALK, Richard, KLEIN, Naomi, PAPPÉ, Ilan, etc. to name a few. Among them, many are Holocaust deniers, advocates for the wholesale annihilation of Israel and murder of Jews. Nearly all of them are die-hard Marxist-Leninists by their own admission. Really, - you picked Great contributors to prove your point, - Mr. Castro is my favorite, along with Mr. AHMADINEJAD and Mr. Chaves.

    All you had to do, is to look at Wikipedia entry to see what the truth really is. While not perfect, but it is clearly a better source then what you posted. But you did not do that! If you did, you’d quickly discover how bankrupt your views really are.

    The Palestinian Arab dead are numbering at about 78,000 from 1860 on! Israeli dead are less at about half that. Many of Arab dead are the result of Arab on Arab violence. Here is alink for you, -

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palest...ualties_of_war

    If you want to ‘see’ genocide, - look at African conflicts, look at what Nazis did from 1933 till 1945, look at what the Turks did to Armenians!

    Also, Mr. Sharon, as controversial as he was, was never directly accused by any court anywhere in the world. In his book he denied the accusation as frivolous that had no prove. Times Magazine did accuse him. He took them to court in the US and won! Further, - no reputable historian or publication EVER accused him of any crimes. He was accused by people and organisations that had clear agenda against his policies. OK?

    Please rethink your position.

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    Re: Israel land grab law 'ends hope of two-state solution'

    Quote Originally Posted by Zafran View Post
    ... Israel has to live with Palestine one way or another.
    A agree! Perhaps you should tell that to PA. Israelis would gladly live with the Arabs. They do already, - 1.8 million Arabs live in Israel. They vote and are generally happy.

    Mr. Abbas, as a head of PA, does not want any Jew to live in Palestine, by his own admission! What do you make of that?

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    Re: Israel land grab law 'ends hope of two-state solution'

    Quote Originally Posted by Zafran View Post
    One way or another the Palestinians are not going anywhere - Right now Israel is occupying Palestine - the settlements show Israel wants to take most of the land and leave the palestinans scraps. It has no intention of living in peace. It shows day by day as Palestinian land is taken inch by inch day by day.
    Please read my post, #91 in this thread. Perhaps, you might change your mind.

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