Why don't Muslims respect the rights of non Muslims and "heretics"?

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Originally Posted by Mustafa16

do you have any idea what people in the gulen jamaat my family is a part of has had to go through at the hands of dictator Erdogan, all because of stupid lies and false accusations of an unfree media?

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You're not the only one. That doesn't mean you should side with the other tyrant (Gulen). Is this all about Erdogan? All middle-eastern countries are oppressive, their governments are not muslims, we have nothing to do with them.

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Originally Posted by Mustafa16

so schoolteachers like my uncle should be thrown in prison for the coup?

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Bro, when things like this happen then everyone gets caught up in it. If someone were to do a terrorist act in your community, you can bet the FBI will go after the whole community and especially anyone that guy associated with. And these are members of an organization.

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Originally Posted by aaj

Bro, when things like this happen then everyone gets caught up in it. If someone were to do a terrorist act in your community, you can bet the FBI will go after the whole community and especially anyone that guy associated with. And these are members of an organization.

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if someone from the local masjid goes to prison for terrorism, they are not gonna sentence all the members of that mosque for terrorism for years, as the Turks have done......we're talking about 7 day sentences (in the US) versus multiple year sentences, which the turks are doing....also, do you want to know why my uncle got arrested? for using bylock, when he doesn't even have a smartphone, and anybody with a brain would know that the bylock accusations are filthy propaganda. you trust your media, which is ranked 151st out of 180 countries in the world for press freedom, and you trust your intelligence, which is of a country that has not yet learned the true meaning of democracy or freedom....and I trust mine, the media of a free country, that has given me a good life, and whose intelligence is of a country that fought long and hard constantly for freedom. Ataturk came and offered the Turks a republic, but THEY HARDLY KNEW WHAT A REPUBLIC WAS!!!!! they lived under a rule of a sultan for most of their lives, and during the several years they didn't, it was just that, several years under ultranationalists (who took power in a coup) and then years of occupation. Turks have never fought for democracy for their own people the way the Americans have advocated in favor of civil liberties, AND THAT INCLUDES FOR MUSLIMS......yes, many Americans despise what America is doing to the Muslim world, but their voice is not heard...is there such a voice in Turkey for the (possibly brainwashed) gulenists, Armenians (whether it was a genocide or not, which I don't believe, millions died in something along the lines of a Turkish "trail of tears" like what happened to kuzey derililer (Native amercians) and had their property stolen ) kurds (who faced EXCESSIVE force as collective punishment for crimes of PKK, and were banned from speaking their own language and practicing their own culture), alevis, etc.? for those who criticize ataturk at one point, and Erdogan on another? you turks think you know so much but you have never had to struggle for anything in your entire lives, (except, ill grant you the stopping of the july 15 coup, which was likely staged) and the problem is those islamists who view the state as sacred....here in America, you can say, "nothing is sacred" but that means we have the freedom to criticize so that flaws in all ideas of the state may be outlined and made to appear. also, gulen himself condemned the coup, and took the claims of his involvement as an offense "as someone who lived through multiple military coups", and where was the intelligence reports on gulen? the minute after the coup failed, binali yildirim simply took the stage and said, "GULEN did it...let us unite" do you even have any idea how these gulenist "cells" operate?????? whether turkey will come to itself through an economic crisis, or through a bloody civil war...I don't know....but it can be compared to a mother going through painful pregnancy for 9 months and 10 days, and then a painful delivery, then the joys and pains of motherhood...

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Originally Posted by aaj

Bro, when things like this happen then everyone gets caught up in it. If someone were to do a terrorist act in your community, you can bet the FBI will go after the whole community and especially anyone that guy associated with. And these are members of an organization.

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also, I didn't hear anything from Turkish intelligence with regards to the coup, simply the testimony of hulusi akar, who is a puppet of Erdogan.....in fact, intelligence officers were banned from speaking

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Originally Posted by aaj

Bro, when things like this happen then everyone gets caught up in it. If someone were to do a terrorist act in your community, you can bet the FBI will go after the whole community and especially anyone that guy associated with. And these are members of an organization.

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did you know that 350,000 Kurdish people in the southeast are currently homeless, and hundreds of civilians have died, including hundreds who hid in a bunker that was set on fire by Turkish troops? (btw, I am NOT Kurdish, or Armenian, or alevi, or whatever)

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Originally Posted by aaj

Bro, when things like this happen then everyone gets caught up in it. If someone were to do a terrorist act in your community, you can bet the FBI will go after the whole community and especially anyone that guy associated with. And these are members of an organization.

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did you know that Erdogan instigated the coup through reports that the soldiers would be purged? this was not preplanned, it was spontaneous......

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Originally Posted by Snel

You're not the only one. That doesn't mean you should side with the other tyrant (Gulen). Is this all about Erdogan? All middle-eastern countries are oppressive, their governments are not muslims, we have nothing to do with them.

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gulen is not a tyrant, silly, he is an imam and religious scholar....to be a tyrant, you have to be the leader of a nation or terrorist organization

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Originally Posted by aaj

Bro, when things like this happen then everyone gets caught up in it. If someone were to do a terrorist act in your community, you can bet the FBI will go after the whole community and especially anyone that guy associated with. And these are members of an organization.

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also, the images on the internet of one of the supposed leaders of the coup is on the internet, and you can see he is badly bruised and bloody...this can possibly they tortured him to obtain his testimony....which happens under any authoritarian regime. also, red and watch this...
also, the images on the internet of one of the supposed leaders of the coup is on the internet, and you can see he is badly bruised and bloody...this can possibly they tortured him to obtain his testimony, and that of other "gulenists"....which happens under any authoritarian regime. also, read and see this,
also, the images on the internet of one of the supposed leaders of the coup is on the internet, and you can see he is badly bruised and bloody...this can possibly they tortured him to obtain his testimony....along with the others who claim to be "gulenist" which happens under any authoritarian regime. read this, http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/tr/c...e-country.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hSVBp-4iiU

edit: also, read this: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/turki...laundering-and

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Originally Posted by aaj

Bro, when things like this happen then everyone gets caught up in it. If someone were to do a terrorist act in your community, you can bet the FBI will go after the whole community and especially anyone that guy associated with. And these are members of an organization.

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did you know that Erdogan openly said he supports al Qaeda, by saying "why do you call al nusra terrorists???" when al nusra (as it was formerly named) was the Syrian branch of al Qaeda????? he also was involved in a corruption scandal, although God knows how stressful it is living in Turkey, you must have forgotten about it by now...

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Originally Posted by aaj

Do you have any proof of torture and rape and killing he's allegedly doing?

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We have here a member whose close relatives have experiences about actions of Erdogan regime. Why not listen to him (I am not sure of others but I do trust much more to the local personal information than news agencies).

But you can find also reports of torture and other violations of human rights from humanitarian organizations like Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International. I just don´t think you´ll believe any of them as it seems that you have already decided that Erdogan can´t never do such crimes against humanity and any kind of proves are only "gulenist propaganda".

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Originally Posted by aaj

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Oke, bro, i have read that topic you sent me. Let me first begin with some SERIOUS dua's as my hatred for the dishonesty has no limit.

May Allah(swt) break the back of the dishonest person being you or me and may Allah(swt) throw him the the lowest of all the hells and show him no mercy to the dishonest one being you or me. As the dishonest person is the munafiq among the Muslims and the kafir under the non-Muslims. Because the dishonest person when he knows the truth he will not admit it, which makes him the REAL unbeliever as the message of Islam has reached him/her in full but rejects it because of arrogance and pride.

Now i have said this, let me start.

You said that that topic was all the proof. I have read all the comments. The first comment was a good comment i agreed it on almost all of it (history of modern day Turkey) with the ONLY exception of saying Said Nursi was a Turk. No he was a Kurd.

1. You agree with me that that guy was wrong in this right? Nationalism is anti-Islam and thus Said Nursi was never a Turk to start with but a Kurd right?

That guy in the rest of the comments was spreading only about how "wonderful" Erdogan is and was. That people were supporting him and that evil Assad this and that. People being friends with US to undermine Islamic values.

2. If Erdogan and the Turks in general hate US and western nations that much, please do tell me why Turks haven't left them yet (NATO)? Isn't this hypocrisy?

3. Erdogan and the Turks being so "pro-oppressed" people and wanting to help the oppressed people. Are the Kurds slaves then? That guy didn't even utter one word about Kurdish oppression by the Turks...not ONE word. You agree with me that Kurds are being oppressed till even this day? (Beware if you say no without GOOD argumentation, i have done my home work and i have my saheeh hadith and Qur'an to back up what i say). I do not follow nationalism but want pure honest Islam. If i am wrong i will admit that i have not looked at it from that perspective and admit you are right.

4. In that video it was claimed that Gulen had a video where he ordered his followers to climb up the ladder to occupy seats that hold power. For the sake of argument i say oke he has said this (as i myself haven't seen the video). My question to you is, if this is what it is how come the coup was done in such a amateurish way? I mean those guys since 1999 have infiltrated the secular system and are educated people. So they have been at it since then right? So don't you think this should have gone more according to plan? (Do please answer all these questions)

5. Is your claim ONLY based on that video? You said search online for other media outlets. The majority is in the hands of Zionists and the Turkish media are pro-Erdogan..so what media news outlet?

6. Now think with me from another perspective. Erdogan most probably has seen that video. By doing a FALSE COUP attempt he for once and for all could clean up the Gulen supporters from their positions. Is this a plausible theory and also very realistic theory? Also would this be a very smart move of Erdogan if this might be true?

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Originally Posted by Simple_Person

Oke, bro, i have read that topic you sent me. Let me first begin with some SERIOUS dua's as my hatred for the dishonesty has no limit.

May Allah(swt) break the back of the dishonest person being you or me and may Allah(swt) throw him the the lowest of all the hells and show him no mercy to the dishonest one being you or me. As the dishonest person is the munafiq among the Muslims and the kafir under the non-Muslims. Because the dishonest person when he knows the truth he will not admit it, which makes him the REAL unbeliever as the message of Islam has reached him/her in full but rejects it because of arrogance and pride.

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That's as far as I read and stopped wasting my time. Before you pass takfir on others, know that kuffar means one who conceals the truth and we are talking about the deen here so you are in error to equate that with anything else (especially politics) and pass takfir on others. And to wish deepest of hell for someone you think maybe wrong shows all that we need to know about you. May Allah protect us from extremists like you.

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Originally Posted by sister herb

We have here a member whose close relatives have experiences about actions of Erdogan regime. Why not listen to him (I am not sure of others but I do trust much more to the local personal information than news agencies).

But you can find also reports of torture and other violations of human rights from humanitarian organizations like Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International. I just don´t think you´ll believe any of them as it seems that you have already decided that Erdogan can´t never do such crimes against humanity and any kind of proves are only "gulenist propaganda".

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We have another member who is from Turkey and is more mature and not mentally unstable. Who said this:

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Originally Posted by anatolian

Mustafa, all the ranking soldiers involved in the coup attempt being the members of the jamaat is not a good proof?

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I'm not saying Erdogan is an angel nor is he personally going out there and torturing the people or maybe aware of how they are being interrogated. Then again, we see such interrogations in all nations, Muslim or otherwise, so I don't see why we are crying and making a big deal about this one in particular.

As I stated before, lot of things pointed to the gulenist being behind the coup. Coup, treason and over throw of a legitimate, democratically elected government is not something to dismiss so lightly. So obviously all those who are members of this organization will be targeted, innocent or not. Yes, his family is members so he feels concern for them and goes on to call Erdogan a tyrant, forgetting that his members were about to over throw a legit government. Maybe he should stop being so immature and think about whether he wants to be part of such an organization rather then blame the government for going after such an organization. He says he is scared to leave the gulen even though they have kicked him out already (https://www.islamicboard.com/advice-...en#post2944537), yet he is flooding this forum with his rants about Turkey.

As for me, I go with the article below, as do many other Muslims.

http://www.islam21c.com/politics/the...ration-to-all/

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Originally Posted by aaj

That's as far as I read and stopped wasting my time. Before you pass takfir on others, know that kuffar means one who conceals the truth and we are talking about the deen here so you are in error to equate that with anything else (especially politics) and pass takfir on others. And to wish deepest of hell for someone you think maybe wrong shows all that we need to know about you. May Allah protect us from extremists like you.

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The dishonesty sub'han'Allah and calling me an extremist. There is NO politics..THERE IS ONLY ISLAM and TRUTH!! A REAL Muslim follows Islam..NOT politics. If you ask me which Kurdish leader do i follow..i say NONE. If you ask me..which Kurdish leader do i admire..i say NONE and for Allah(swt) i cannot hide anything. If you ask me do you want a independent Kurdistan or a REAL Islamic Caliphate..i say without a doubt a REAL Islamic Caliphate..and again Allah(swt) knows if i speak the truth or not because for Him i cannot hide anything.

While i have become super annoyed by especially Turks who call themselves Muslims and when you ask them..why don't they speak out against oppression..they suddenly keep their mouth shut. I did that first part on purpose. So that you know that being dishonest and not admitting something while it is based on truth.

Till this day i have met only 3 Turks who admitted with all honesty in the span of ..well all my life. The third one was just recently and that was Mustafa16 here on this forum.

On other Islamic forums, people exactly like you are active. When you ask them honestly something and bring out Allah(swt) punishment and the seriousness of the discussion they suddenly keep their mouth shut. Dude, you do not have to answer my questions..for me what is important is that YOU know them yourself and already have answered them because Allah(swt) also knows what answer you have given them. The moment you know them..you have no excuses anymore on the Day of Judgement. A honest person would without arrogance and pride answer them in truth. Every person can be brainwashed..but if you are honest you can learn maybe i am wrong so better educate myself on this.

People like you i cannot get those 70 excuses when something might have happened. Because people like you will stab me in the back the moment i see you as a brother in Islam. Nationalism is the motivation for you dipped in the mask of Islam. When critical questions are asked, people like you KNOW the answer..but Allah knows maybe out of pride of arrogance not admitting it thinking you will lose your "Turkish pride".

la hawla quwwata illa billah ..the dishonesty..and having the guts to call themselves Muslims. How low have we human beings become seriously.

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Originally Posted by aaj

We have another member who is from Turkey and is more mature and not mentally unstable. Who said this:



I'm not saying Erdogan is an angel nor is he personally going out there and torturing the people or maybe aware of how they are being interrogated. Then again, we see such interrogations in all nations, Muslim or otherwise, so I don't see why we are crying and making a big deal about this one in particular.

As I stated before, lot of things pointed to the gulenist being behind the coup. Coup, treason and over throw of a legitimate, democratically elected government is not something to dismiss so lightly. So obviously all those who are members of this organization will be targeted, innocent or not. Yes, his family is members so he feels concern for them and goes on to call Erdogan a tyrant, forgetting that his members were about to over throw a legit government. Maybe he should stop being so immature and think about whether he wants to be part of such an organization rather then blame the government for going after such an organization. He says he is scared to leave the gulen even though they have kicked him out already (https://www.islamicboard.com/advice-...en#post2944537), yet he is flooding this forum with his rants about Turkey.

As for me, I go with the article below, as do many other Muslims.

http://www.islam21c.com/politics/the...ration-to-all/

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i am not mentally unstable, i have autism and ADHD....second, gulen movement did not try to overthrow the "democratically elected government of turkey," (elections rigged, no coup by gulenists), and i have provided sources for you to learn from, but you dismiss it in the name of Turkish nationalist nonsense....you dismiss any source i put out, because "the west is killing muslims".....so anyone who kills muslims is lying, right? well, what do you think muslims are doing to each other? they're eating each other alive......and dont act like aljazeera is such a reliable source.....or that the turkish media is such a reliable source.....and i find it highly unlikely that an intelligence community would make up lies against erdogan, especially when turkish intelligence is banned from speaking....

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Originally Posted by aaj

We have another member who is from Turkey and is more mature and not mentally unstable. Who said this:



I'm not saying Erdogan is an angel nor is he personally going out there and torturing the people or maybe aware of how they are being interrogated. Then again, we see such interrogations in all nations, Muslim or otherwise, so I don't see why we are crying and making a big deal about this one in particular.

As I stated before, lot of things pointed to the gulenist being behind the coup. Coup, treason and over throw of a legitimate, democratically elected government is not something to dismiss so lightly. So obviously all those who are members of this organization will be targeted, innocent or not. Yes, his family is members so he feels concern for them and goes on to call Erdogan a tyrant, forgetting that his members were about to over throw a legit government. Maybe he should stop being so immature and think about whether he wants to be part of such an organization rather then blame the government for going after such an organization. He says he is scared to leave the gulen even though they have kicked him out already (https://www.islamicboard.com/advice-...en#post2944537), yet he is flooding this forum with his rants about Turkey.

As for me, I go with the article below, as do many other Muslims.

http://www.islam21c.com/politics/the...ration-to-all/

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second, those soldiers being part of the coup being from jamaat is a lie, they were forced to say that under torture, which you chose to ignore out of "Turkish pride"

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Originally Posted by aaj

We have another member who is from Turkey and is more mature and not mentally unstable. Who said this:



I'm not saying Erdogan is an angel nor is he personally going out there and torturing the people or maybe aware of how they are being interrogated. Then again, we see such interrogations in all nations, Muslim or otherwise, so I don't see why we are crying and making a big deal about this one in particular.

As I stated before, lot of things pointed to the gulenist being behind the coup. Coup, treason and over throw of a legitimate, democratically elected government is not something to dismiss so lightly. So obviously all those who are members of this organization will be targeted, innocent or not. Yes, his family is members so he feels concern for them and goes on to call Erdogan a tyrant, forgetting that his members were about to over throw a legit government. Maybe he should stop being so immature and think about whether he wants to be part of such an organization rather then blame the government for going after such an organization. He says he is scared to leave the gulen even though they have kicked him out already (https://www.islamicboard.com/advice-...en#post2944537), yet he is flooding this forum with his rants about Turkey.

As for me, I go with the article below, as do many other Muslims.

http://www.islam21c.com/politics/the...ration-to-all/

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third, people like you and your politicians are the ones that make me feel ashamed to be a Muslim.

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Originally Posted by Mustafa16

Horrendous and systematic persecution of bahais in Iran (and everywhere)
Horrendous and systematic persecution of Gulenists in Turkey (and not even because they are considered heretics, but that certainly helps)
Horrendous and systematic persecution of Ahmadis in Pakistan and Palestine.
Horrendous abuse of Christians
Horrendous abuse of Jews
genocide against yazidis
sunni-shia conflict
what the heck is wrong with the muslim world? we complain about the abuse of Muslims in Burma, Kashmir, Palestine, Syria (which by the way, is also a place where yezidis and Christians are being butchered) and east Turkestan, the CAR in Africa, etc.
to be a muslim is to stand up for human rights anywhere and everywhere......
why do we only complain about ourselves? we hardly complain for the rights of non muslims, unless we live in the lands of the kuffar and fear lynching or hate crimes, but in the dar al islam, we don't fear, we let loose.....human beings are worthy of being treated with dignity....how would you like it if that was your sister, your daughter, your mother, your son, your brother, your friend, your father, etc.?
we complain about how human rights groups make "misleading reports" about Islamic countries....how is it misleading when you are not allowed to criticize your ruler because he is king or president or prime minister, where heads of state are thieves who hoard billions in wealth on enormous palaces, where corruption is rampant, where journalists are jailed, where insulting a leader IS A CRIME! where torture is rampant, where you are guilty until proven innocent....has anyone ever read the life of our Prophet (PBUH) and his companions? a kharijite came and insulted Umar (RA) in the masjid! they told Umar (RA) to react, but he said, he has a right to say what he wants...! astaghfirullah I am ashamed to be associated with the likes of Palestine, turkey, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Egypt, etc.

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Whatever problem you see in the Muslim world today is because of ignorance. People cannot feel sympathy, empathy and kindness if they are not taught to appreciate one another. An ignorant Muslim is no exception.

Contrast the ignorant layman to the 'alim. Does the Muslim scholar believe the rights of anyone should be transgressed? Does the Qur'an and Sunnah reflect the actions you've described? The answer is no. Don't assume all Muslims have enough knowledge of the religion that will lead them to righteous actions as the truly righteous have always been few in number.

You should spend your energy making dua and advising those whom you can within your community to make a difference. The ummah of today is in need of people that will take action rather than feeling helpless at our current state.

I forgot to mention that there are also good examples of Muslims living peacefully with others, be it atheists, Jews, Christians or others. The city of Marrakech in Morocco is split into three areas. One area is for the Jews, one for Christians and one for Muslims. You see the three groups of people freely mixing amongst one another and they all have their own places of worship. They worship freely without there being any conflict.

The Ahmedi around the world stir a great deal of problems because they are unanimously considered non-Muslim. There is a context behind the conflict for each group but ultimately the reasons and motivations behind the conflict today boils down to ignorance.

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Originally Posted by aaj

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After i posted my last comment i was pondering what is wrong with you people to not speak out against injustice. But in your previous comment you brought out politics. I came to the conclusion that you guys are seriously CONVINCED that politics and Islam are two COMPLETELY separate things. So in case of politics if injustice has done to certain groups being Muslims or non-Muslims and you support that political party, then you do not have to stand up against the injustice that has been done by that political party.

Sub'han'Allah this even makes more sense why i till now have found very little Turks speaking out against the injustice Turks are doing to the Kurds and other minorities. Whole nationalism has seriously messed up the fitrah, while usually fitrah automatically kicks in when injustice has done but in the case of the Turks sheytan having turned things around. In the past i even brought up the subject of Hagia Sophia and gave clear perspective that within Islam this is forbidden by bringing out the event with Umar ibn Khattab going to Jerusalem but praying outside the Church as he was afraid the Church being taken over by Muslims in the future and turning in to a mosque.

I have brought up Turkey being part of NATO..(hypocrisy)..most of them just kept quite..some said yes we need to get out of NATO..and that's it.

I have brought up Turkey doing business with the Zionist wanting to transfer gas to Europe, while this gas belongs to the Arabs. ...no reply to that...or reply as ..we don't like them but its is politics....

I have brought up that Turkey is using Syrian refugees as bargaining chips to get best deal with EU..no reply..or i would guess they would exactly say the same.."it is politics".

SUB'HAN'ALLAH..i feel rather sorry for you people. As the Day of Judgement you will also be held responsible for everything you do, said and not said. Even thinking that politics and Islam are separate things. While the logical, rational and reasonable Muslim would ask himself these questions of don't i as a Muslim still have to speak out against injustice..whatever and whoever does injustice.

Again..i am in shock, as i have never come to this conclusion before. I SERIOUSLY feel sorry for you guys. As i myself had nationalism in the past so i know how it feels. To get over this nationalism and acknowledge you being wrong and this nationalism being wrong a person has to humiliate himself so to say. Are you up for that to put your national pride aside and see your own culture as filth compared to Islamic culture? All i can say is, this national pride is to the CORE of your heart. It is not easy to conquer this. It is like completely throwing everything you believed upside down.

I am laughing out of unbelief, because this is really something i never imagined it would be. To overcome this i pondered a lot and i was honest in injustice even done by other Kurds. I think Mustafa16 is also going through the same struggle.

Also now i understand even better why i said if i would say brother to you, people like you would stab me in the back. As i speak out against the nationalism and injustice..which is one could say speak out against your core belief-system.

I wish you good luck with it if you are planning to conquer it, you gonna need that luck very badly.