Democracy by default isn't a sure thing, as it can be manipulated. Recently i have been seeing this 51 vs 49 more often in democratic places, which to me seems VERY VERY FISHY..do keep in mind i am skeptical and i ask too many questions.
Any ways let's say it is "legit" and this is REALLY the result of the referendum of 51% vs 49%. What does this say about Turkey's future?
Turkey in the past had the glue named Turkish nationalism. With this referendum it clearly shows the unity among the people does not exist or has faded away. Turks as we already have seen lately have been divided to Kemalists (secular Turks) vs AKP-supporters vs Gulen-supporters. I am not mentioning Armenians and Kurds, because that is a different subject. So right now the dividends already exists with the Turks themselves.
Because of this slight change we could say Kemalists + Gulen supporters + many Kurds (although not all off course) + Armenians (although i don't know if they are like some Kurds are pro-AKP) have voted against it (49 percent).
Turks by this large portion of the country have never disagreed with each other. In the past Turks themselves go a long just fine, while Kurds for majority were the one fighting back. Now the group fighting back has gained good amount of people. This could be resulting in a civil war. Why do i say this? Because people who have never faced oppression will off course at the beginning fight back.
This fighting is VERY convenient for either Russia OR NATO. So again i come back to the issue of IF Turkey chooses to side with Russia, NATO supporting the opposition with demonstrations as well as military power (PKK). If Turkey chooses for NATO, Russia supporting the same..although i think rather they would openly but more actively support PKK. As just recently PKK had downed a Turkish Cobra helicopter with a Russian IGLA manpad. As a Kurd myself i have NEVER known this happen in all the years PKK has fought Turkey. So this clearly turns things 180 degrees the other side.
Well, wouldn´t it be easier to let Kurds to create their own government and country instead of calling them terrorists, slaying them and oppress them? Or is there in the Kurdistan something what is so important to Turkey (and other countries) that it´s more beneficial to keep them under the rule of others? Like natural resources? Or is it geo-political issue?
To know this sister you must look at the map. Kurdistan is one could say is about the replacement of the historical Mesopotamia. In South Kurdistan (Bashur- modern day North Iraq), contains A LOT of oil. This i believe is also in West Kurdistan (Rojava - Modern day north Eastern Syria). This Also is the case of North Kurdistan (Bakur - Modern day South Eastern Turkey). For East Kurdistan (Rojhelat - modern day north eastern Iran) that i am not sure.
Besides this, if Kurdistan becomes a whole, you could say the contact between Turks AND Arabs AND Iran is cut off. Well largely. So business has to go through Kurdish lands and off course if Kurds manage to get whole Northern Syria to Mediterranean sea, this means the oil from ALL over Kurdistan can directly go to large ships that from Mediterranean Sea go to the rest of the world. Also if there is other oil from other countries, this also the Kurds can transport directly to Cyprus..to Greece and thus Europe. In other words..again NO Turkey.
Now i have talked about that, let's also talk about the OTHER part as well. The Tigris AND the Euphrates BOTH origin largely from Bakur (Kurdish part of the modern day Turkey). In other words the Kurds ALSO have control over water. This land is even mentioned in the Qur'an (mount Judi) with the ship of prophet Nuh (as). So it is also a blessed land. We have A LOT OF springs. Although in the recent years much has slowly been drying out.
The Turks KNOW with all the oppression they have done to the Kurds and if the Kurds get a independent Kurdistan and somehow manage to reach it to Mediterranean sea, the Turks will largely ONLY be getting their money based on trade and tourism.
Tourism and trade are very easily to be manipulated. What i mean by that is, look at Russia when they put sanctions on Turkey. It hit them very hard. So it is like a thief and a criminal doing whatever in his power to prevent somebody getting power over him as he knows when the one he has done injustice to, will not be merciful to him.
I am not here to play rhetoric games with you. There is not such an oppression against Kurdish people today in Turkey which can justify the actions of PKK. All the missing rights could be achieved by Democracy if they cut off their ties with PKK but PKK have to terrorize the region for the sake of the imperialist plans of the country you blame. Kurdish terrorists in Iraaq killed that people of Iraq along with the soldier of the same country.
Don't get emotional. Discussions are meant to stay intellectual and leave emotion out of it.
According to you there is no oppression yes. It is like a western person saying there is no racism in the west. Off course not all of them, but many western people are completely blind that racism in the west is a FACT. All the rights could be achieved by democracy? OOh you mean putting HDP-members in prison that through political (PEACEFUL) way tried to get the rights? In the world military power is needed. This sadly i have realized and even Islam confirms this. Some people with words cannot talk something out and by peaceful ways achieve progress. Sadly they resort to military power and i even as a Muslim say if PKK is no longer, the oppression will NOT stop. Putting HDP members in prison was a CLEAR wake-up call for me. I also was seriously saying PKK should put their weapons down as this is a age of political talk. However the whole issue with putting HDP-members in jail and how the Turks are behaving even towards KDP and other Kurds that have NOTHING to do with PKK or YPG, showed clearly it was NOT about PKK or YPG or "terrorists acts". PKK, YPG, KDP, PUK..atheist Kurd, Muslim Kurd ..etc. etc they ALL Have ONE thing in common. They are all Kurds. So sometimes i know one does not want to get out of their warm bed for fajr, but reality is YOU MUST wake up and get out of bed. In other words, do not see the Turks as friends and allies as long as they hate you. Beware, because they will stab you in the back.
Last edited by Simple_Person; 04-17-2017 at 08:19 PM.
Well, wouldn´t it be easier to let Kurds to create their own government and country instead of calling them terrorists, slaying them and oppress them? Or is there in the Kurdistan something what is so important to Turkey (and other countries) that it´s more beneficial to keep them under the rule of others? Like natural resources? Or is it geo-political issue?
Salam sis. We are not calling Kurds terrorists or slay them or oppress them. You are just believed to think that PKK represents Kurds. There is not such a thing. Only less than half of Kurdish people of Turkey supports these terrorists. HDP represents the Kurdish nationalist movement in Turkey and they have a maximum half of votes from Kurds where the other half vote goes for the other parties. Considering that not all people within HDP are pro-PKK, we can assume even less then half of Kurds in Turkey support PKK. However, PKK have continously oppressed the Kurds who didn't give support to them since the 80s. This was a real oppression. They even raided kurdish villages and killed their "own people". They have suppressed most of these people. Look for it too.
There has never been a historical "Kurdistan" and there is not so much resource or anything else under it's part staying within Turkey. The only reason we have all this land within Turkey is the grand fathers of kurdish people had fought against the enemy along with the grand fathers of turks and all other ethnic minorities living on this land and participated in the establishment of Turkey. Look for it as well.
I am not playing rhetoric games but asked a question. Maybe someone else can answer, without aggressive tone. Also, I didn´t speak about PKK but Kurdish people. They all aren´t supporters of PKK and such organization.
Ok, I know that´s off topic but Kurds and their organizations was mentioned already in this thread.
And what comes to the oppression, I have other kind of information from my Kurdish friends.
I wrote it to simple person not you. Sorry for the confusion. I wrote another answer to you just above.
Salam sis. We are not calling Kurds terrorists or slay them or oppress them. You are just believed to think that PKK represents Kurds. There is not such a thing. Only less than half of Kurdish people of Turkey supports these terrorists. HDP represents the Kurdish nationalist movement in Turkey and they have a maximum half of votes from Kurds where the other half vote goes for the other parties. Considering that not all people within HDP are pro-PKK, we can assume even less then half of Kurds in Turkey support PKK. However, PKK have continously oppressed the Kurds who didn't give support to them since the 80s. This was a real oppression. They even raided kurdish villages and killed their "own people". They have suppressed most of these people. Look for it too.
There has never been a historical "Kurdistan" and there is not so much resource or anything else under it's part staying within Turkey. The only reason we have all this land within Turkey is the grand fathers of kurdish people had fought against the enemy along with the grand fathers of turks and all other ethnic minorities living on this land and participated in the establishment of Turkey. Look for it as well.
@sister herb my advice is to be careful with a snake. I speak with honesty but you judge yourself if i really do or not, PKK in the past indeed have done such a things, but just like his previous posts is to brand PKK by whatever means a bad organization possible. Many Kurds have come to hate PKK, i have talked to some even in my own family their hatred is based on early 90's. Kurds are known for their illogical hate that keeps brother and brother 40 years from each other because of a small fight when they were still young. Too proud to admit and say let's forget about it. BTW, i am NOT finding any excuses. They have done bad FOR SURE, nothing to hide about it.
In those times Turks used Kurds in villages as so called village guards. These people got paid to fight PKK. However those times have gone past, but those village guards STILL exist. Turkey has done a very good job i must say to still create this so called picture of PKK still killing Kurds etc. PKK does however kill those village guards as they work for Turkish government, but no Kurds anymore. I have also heard that some of those village guards use their power to deal with personal problems. Anyways if this is true or not, Allah knows best.
However now it is 2017 and the world has seen the side that had NOTHING to do with Kurds. We have seen ISIS and the Turks were supporting them. We have seen their hypocrisy in today saying Assad is bad and tomorrow being friends with Assad. While ISIS had borders with Turkey, NOTHING happened, but when YPG conquered suddenly Turkey needed to intervene. FOR SURE Allah will reveal the hypocrites. Right now people all around the world have come to hate the Turks. Not because i am saying this, but read the news and look up the facts.
The argument of Turks is very weak, but they try to communicate through emotions and victimize themselves. While reading the facts, says completely the opposite.
I even STRONGLY advice you to NOT believe me, go study yourself. You have google maps, you have internet, you have a mind of your own to question and be skeptical about things. FOR SURE Truth is clear for falsehood.
Don't get emotional. Discussions are meant to stay intellectual and leave emotion out of it.
According to you there is no oppression yes. It is like a western person saying there is no racism in the west. Off course not all of them, but many western people are completely blind that racism in the west is a FACT. All the rights could be achieved by democracy? OOh you mean putting HDP-members in prison that through political (PEACEFUL) way tried to get the rights? In the world military power is needed. This sadly i have realized and even Islam confirms this. Some people with words cannot talk something out and by peaceful ways achieve progress. Sadly they resort to military power and i even as a Muslim say if PKK is no longer, the oppression will NOT stop. Putting HDP members in prison was a CLEAR wake-up call for me. I also was seriously saying PKK should put their weapons down as this is a age of political talk. However the whole issue with putting HDP-members in jail and how the Turks are behaving even towards KDP and other Kurds that have NOTHING to do with PKK or YPG, showed clearly it was NOT about PKK or YPG or "terrorists acts". PKK, YPG, KDP, PUK..atheist Kurd, Muslim Kurd ..etc. etc they ALL Have ONE thing in common. They are all Kurds. So sometimes i know one does not want to get out of their warm bed for fajr, but reality is YOU MUST wake up and get out of bed. In other words, do not see the Turks as friends and allies as long as they hate you. Beware, because they will stab you in the back.
It is Erdo who put them in jail to diminish the efficiency of HDP. But, are HDP angels? No. They are working with PKK. PKK are forcing kurdish people to vote for HDP. I listen from eyewitnesses. Do you consider this an oppression?
Thanks for advice, brother simple. I have studied those things of this region (Mid East) last 30 years but I always like to listen other´s opinions. And maybe I have forgot something during the years.
From Occupied Palestine:
We have suffered too much for too long. We will not accept apartheid masked as peace. We will settle for no less than our freedom.
It is Erdo who put them in jail to diminish the efficiency of HDP. But, are HDP angels? No. They are working with PKK. PKK are forcing kurdish people to vote for HDP. I listen from eyewitnesses. Do you consider this an oppression?
Know some factors first to see things clearly. Have large groups of Kurds been brainwashed by Turks? FOR SURE.
Is there a possibility that PKK is forcing Kurds to vote for HDP, There is a possibility as i have no evidence that there isn't or there is. So for sure i cannot say no they are not doing that. Being very honest in this.
However looking as a observer from the west of what is going on there, some a Kurdish couple said they were voting for Erdogan in the referendum. Based on what? You know what they said? In all those years our village had no decent road and when Erdogan came to power he fixed our road.
I mean look at this reasoning. I know something called bribing. They off course do not see ANYTHING in that direction, rather they think it is some kindness of Erdogan towards them. This is how we Kurds are. When somebody does something for us, we do not seek any thoughts behind why would somebody help us out of nowhere. While looking at it from a political angle, off course this is VERY clearly. Getting Kurdish supporters. Why do you think AKP came to power back in 2003? With the help of the Kurds. However when HDP was created, more Kurds were giving their votes to HDP instead. This off course was NOT how Erdogan planned. This was very visible when they reached the 10% threshold i believe with the votes last year. So see the whole picture, do not just show part of the picture.
All i see is Erdogan showing Kurds who are NOT educated his "kindness", while the people who are more educated in the political angle, see that there is a intention behind it.
So saying HDP was behind PKK and all of those things, that is BASED on who? Based on what the Turks say it was, while CLEARLY HDP was the needle in the eye of Erdogan.
sorry, I thought you were rambling again about how "pure Turkish soldiers" have not committed war crimes in Turkey. And how the"pure Turkish soldiers" are fighting against the "Sheytani PKK" But you were simply calling Turkish soldiers who died shaheed and PKK as terrorist. That much I'll agree with. HOwever, you have started your nationalist rants again. The abuse of human rights in SE Turkey by Turkish troops since the 70s and 80s is despicable. But you probably dont know about it due to your nationalist educational system. Massacres of civilians, indiscrimminate bombing including destruction of thousands of villages, destruction of entire cities, killing of hundreds of civilians, perhaps even on purpose, while the ultranationalist "Ulku ocaklari" (Grey wolves) cheer on the deaths? Not even allowing for the discussion of a Kurdish state? Ideally, I wouldn't agree with a Kurdish state, but in a truly free society, should you be allowing people to speak their mind? Unleashing Kurdish Islamist proxies on the Kurdish people?
read this: https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries...report-turkey/ https://www.hrw.org/world-report/201...hapters/turkey
did you know that 350,000-500,000 Kurdish people currently are homeless due to Turkish bombing? Did you know that entire cities have been destroyed, and my uncle is Kurdish, and my cousin half-Kurdish?
read on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_...ople_in_Turkey
and just in case you dont trust wikipedia, click on the numbers in brackets next to each fact, to see if the source is correct.
BTW Im not Kurdish, but it probably wouldn'tmatter to you, as I am "Feto" (Fethullahci Teror Orgutu) (Fethullahist Terrorist organization, named after fethullah gulen)
the people cracking down on my people, the police, are even more useless and despicable.
Erdogan has done much good for Turkey, including giving muslima's their dignity back by allowing them to wear their headscarf in school, the police and just recently, the army.
Erdogan has done much good for Turkey, including giving muslima's their dignity back by allowing them to wear their headscarf in school, the police and just recently, the army.
The question rather is what does somebody want in return? IN today's world, MAJORITY OF the people don't do things out of the goodness of their heart. For example why Erdogan had spend money on the Kurdish area many interpreted as just kindness. However when HDP-members were put in jail that cleared the picture of what his intention was. In other words, he wanted to have people to support him and now he spend money on the Kurdish area and they end up giving votes to HDP instead.
The art however in this is, pay attention to little details and you will see the true intention. In this case it has NOTHING to do with Islam. All power, greed, control and Muslims now a days by majority are sheep so just need to do the necessary things to achieve them to follow you.
sorry, I thought you were rambling again about how "pure Turkish soldiers" have not committed war crimes in Turkey. And how the"pure Turkish soldiers" are fighting against the "Sheytani PKK" But you were simply calling Turkish soldiers who died shaheed and PKK as terrorist. That much I'll agree with. HOwever, you have started your nationalist rants again. The abuse of human rights in SE Turkey by Turkish troops since the 70s and 80s is despicable. But you probably dont know about it due to your nationalist educational system. Massacres of civilians, indiscrimminate bombing including destruction of thousands of villages, destruction of entire cities, killing of hundreds of civilians, perhaps even on purpose, while the ultranationalist "Ulku ocaklari" (Grey wolves) cheer on the deaths? Not even allowing for the discussion of a Kurdish state? Ideally, I wouldn't agree with a Kurdish state, but in a truly free society, should you be allowing people to speak their mind? Unleashing Kurdish Islamist proxies on the Kurdish people?
read this: https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries...report-turkey/ https://www.hrw.org/world-report/201...hapters/turkey
did you know that 350,000-500,000 Kurdish people currently are homeless due to Turkish bombing? Did you know that entire cities have been destroyed, and my uncle is Kurdish, and my cousin half-Kurdish?
read on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_...ople_in_Turkey
and just in case you dont trust wikipedia, click on the numbers in brackets next to each fact, to see if the source is correct.
BTW Im not Kurdish, but it probably wouldn'tmatter to you, as I am "Feto" (Fethullahci Teror Orgutu) (Fethullahist Terrorist organization, named after fethullah gulen)
the people cracking down on my people, the police, are even more useless and despicable.
You said that you didn't understand my post and I asked which part of my post you didnt understand since I said different things in it. However what you wrote above has nothing to do with my question. That means to me either you were not sincere in asking me to explain what I meant or there is another confusion or problem which I have yet to understand.
What else, as for your contribution to the topic..I have never said that Turkish soldies were always pure people and if you had chance to follow me in other topics I have already stated that there was an oppression against Kurdish people of Turkey in the past. Some human right abuses occured then because of racism. But the extent has always been manupilated. You say 350 to 500.000 people are homeless today because of bombings but I don't know where from you get your data. I couldnt find it in the wiki page you provided. Also can you disprove that it wasn't done because of the reason of PKK militas residing in those villages? Of course you cant force people to leave their lands but factually PKK were benefiting from those villages. And those villagers were forced by the group to give them support.
Your uncle's kurdishness has no value in our topic really. My aunt's husband and therefore my cousins are mixed Kurd too. I have Kurd friends too. What am trying to say is that nothing is comparable to human life and you can't take life unless yours are threatened. So, did you know that PKK are the only terrorist group which specifically target the teachers in the history of terrorism? Did you know that PKK killed even kurdish babies in the cradles?
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