Turks shooting at civilians that are on Syrian territory

format_quote Originally Posted by ebubekir01

which "human right activists" do you mean ?

For example myself.

Crimes against humanity made by others never give any kind of justify to made them by yourself. (Note that with this I didn´t mean personally "you".)

format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb

For example myself.

Crimes against huminity made by others never give any kind of justice to made them by yourself. (Note that with this I didn´t mean personally "you".)

Turkey and Erdoğan govt. are the most generous country and govt. around world against syrian refugees, somalia palestine iraqi refugees etc. thats the truth you dont want to see and you tell lies about Turkey and Erdoğan. go ask palestine somalia ppl what they think about erdoğan and other western countries and non muslim so called human right activists invaded their countries!

show me a "human right activist" group accuses erdoğan with being dictator and ill show you how hypocrite they are (include you!)

erdoğan is 8 times elected president and was prime minister! Turkey is a democrasy! but not like western democrasies love dictator sisi but blame elected mursi!

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format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb

For example myself.

Crimes against humanity made by others never give any kind of justify to made them by yourself. (Note that with this I didn´t mean personally "you".)

go and ask palestine people about erdoğan!

The joke of the day with yet another brainwashed Turk .

Monkey see monkey do, Erdogan does a really good job i must say by keeping the monkey mentality to many Turks.

format_quote Originally Posted by ebubekir01

you are illiterate or ignorant!

Now some manners to this discussion. You know nothing about me. Read the rules and calm down. Members have right for their opinions here but no rights for the personal attacks.

^ I like Turkish sheeps - specially when they are well barbecued. (Sorry joking.)

format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb

^ I like Turkish sheeps - specially when they are well barbecued. (Sorry joking.)

Those sheep are British...

format_quote Originally Posted by ebubekir01

LOL human right activists? are you serious?
where are those HRActivists when israel murders innocent palestine ppl
when america invades iraq when
where were they when israel attacked a turkish aid ship and killed 10 innocent volunteer who tries to help gaza people?
which "human right activists" do you mean ?

actually there are many western and even jewish activists who support the people of palestine, but you would never know that from your turkish propoganda machine. haven't you heard of human rights watch or amnesty international? btw, turkey arrested the local heads of amnesty international on their soil. yes, the us invasion of iraq was a horrible mistake but what does that have to do with turkey? are you saying just because america does something bad it gives turkey the right to violate human rights as well? so if i killed an innocent person, you should kill an innocent person because i did it? also there WAS condemnation of the turkish aid ship being shot down, as far as I can remember, but keep in mind, Turkey was sending a ship into Gaza, which had weapons in it btw, and regardless of whether or not it had weapons in it, it was trying to cross israeli jurisdictio without permission....what do you expect? if you believe the zionists are so evil, why weren't you expecting a reaction? this was a clearly a provocation, that was only intended to end badly to score diplomatic points. I challenge you to google "Human rights watch" and "amnesty international" also, read this: https://turkeypurge.com/

did you know that one of those arrested was a UN Judge who had diplomatic immunity, and was working on investigating the Rwandan genocide? did you know that the United Nations referred turkey to the Security Council? EDIT: Btw, most americans were/are against the Iraq war. EDIT: and many americans criticized the human rights abuses committed against the Iraqis including a transgender military officer who leaked government classified documents on the lies the american military was putting out about iraq and the number of casualties, who died in the airstrikes, war crimes, etc. and was pardoned by PRESIDENT Barack Obama.

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format_quote Originally Posted by ebubekir01

you are illiterate or ignorant! Turkey and Erdoğan govt. are the most generous country and govt. around world against syrian refugees, somalia palestine iraqi refugees etc. thats the truth you dont want to see and you tell lies about Turkey and Erdoğan. go ask palestine somalia ppl what they think about erdoğan and other western countries and non muslim so called human right activists invaded their countries!

show me a "human right activist" group accuses erdoğan with being dictator and ill show you how hypocrite they are (include you!)

erdoğan is 8 times elected president and was prime minister! Turkey is a democrasy! but not like western democrasies love dictator sisi but blame elected mursi!

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go and ask palestine people about erdoğan!

also, check all the United Nations (Birlesmis Milletler, or BM) condemnations on Israel. But has Turkey received any condemnations? NO.

What else...Still the OP lack to prove his point since those YT videos created by two monkeys do not prove anything. I have all rights to consider them just propoganda.

format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian

What else...Still the OP lack to prove his point since those YT videos created by two monkeys do not prove anything. I have all rights to consider them just propoganda.

Honesty:

- Person X gives video and says X, person Y says this is pure propaganda. Person X says it indeed could be.
- Person Y gives video and says Y, person X says this is pure propaganda. Person Y, says no it is not without argument.

When one would says, dude, this is propaganda, as a person that seeks honesty, i will say it COULD be as i do not care even if the biggest dictator on the planet is accused of doing X, while it is not true. I will defend that specific thing accused of that dictator. Truth is truth. I do not deny it. I judge people by their actions. With the Turkish politics looking from a objective side and asking questions, i am always brushed off by Turks. Based on what..the only conclusion that i so far have come to is ..nationalism because they do NOT give me objective evidence that stands firm. However me being skeptic that this might not be propaganda is also that Turkish reporters are being jailed for making the weapon trade between Turkey and the rebels in Syria (FACT). This Turks (dishonesty), do not want to talk about it.

I said already in the past. Give me OBJECTIVE evidence that INDEED Fetullah Gulen was the one behind the so called "coup". None was given till this day. With this i have seen Turks are good beating around the bush. Erdogan, first was anti-Assad, then suddenly has become pro-Assad. When this thing is said, the Turks defend him as ..ooh but that is politics. No, politics is one thing and Islamic principles are another thing. In Islam Muslim blood is MORE sacred than the Ka'bah itself, but Erdogan clearly does not see it like that. This dude..is called hypocrisy. You follow your desires not Allah's will.

This what i said is a VALID argument, but i am brushed off as..ooh you are a liar and this and that. A HONEST Turk would say, you indeed are saying something that might contain some truth ..OR he/she would say..let me ponder about what you said.

I may be wrong about 999 things of the 1000 and another person might be right 999 things out of 1000, but that is exactly the point of with every case you untangle it and analyze it individually. I can NEVER be right and you can never be wrong. The truth might sometimes come from me and sometimes from you. We say we are Muslim, well we do not follow our will but His will. You ask questions based on logic, rationality and reason. So far even for you, me giving certain argument with whatever it might be..it is like me insulting your mother..it is that hard to acknowledge the truth. The Turkish society is so intertwined with politics, that i am not sure if you are afraid of telling the truth or you really are convinced of it.

In the past i have given you a SIMPLE argument. What if Mahdi would appear tomorrow and he would say Turks are bad and we must attack the Turks. Just for the sake of argument. What will you do? Which side would you choose? Be thankful of me, bringing this up so you could ponder about it instead of hitting you with such dilemma so to say without you even realizing it.

Allah is tester and Allah tests His creation with such things that they try to hide deep in their hearts. You are no exception to the rule, i am no exception to the rule. You are still alive and make use of it while your soul has not been taken yet.

The investigation for the coup attempt is still going on. Not that I trust Erdoğan and his prosecutors but still there are evidences like crypto messages given by Gülen and his imams within the army for this attempt. All the ranking soldiers involved in the coup are known as gülen jamaat members. It is not easy to prove that since the Gülen jamaat was not an official organ of the state and no member had a "official" card showing their membership of the jamaat. But all the evidences yet to found show Gülen jamaat. Of course it will only be proven after the investigation is finalized but it is not officially proven yet. "If" it is not gülenists who did it, though I give zero chance, I can confess your "intelligence". However, at this point you are not capable of proving innocense of the jamaat too. We will just wait and see the result. I am not a promoter of Erdoğan. I oppose him severly and condemn his unjust actions towards all groups including Gülen jamaat members who are unrelated to the coup. I condemn his unjust actions towards kurdish speakers who are unrelated to PKK too. But, well, what the heck this has anything to do with promoting anti Turkist claims? I can creat a video telling all Kurds are gays and upload it in YT. So, where is the proof? There is not one single evidence in these videos showing it was the Turkish military shooting those people deliberatly. Just two monkeys and a Syrian man telling that. You need more. Unless you do it is called a propoganda.

Can anyone trust the results of investigation when it´s made by Erdogan party himself? They surely want that evidencies show the coup was made by gulenists.

format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian

The investigation for the coup attempt is still going on. Not that I trust Erdoğan and his prosecutors but still there are evidences like crypto messages given by Gülen and his imams within the army for this attempt. All the ranking soldiers involved in the coup are known as gülen jamaat members. It is not easy to prove that since the Gülen jamaat was not an official organ of the state and no member had a "official" card showing their membership of the jamaat. But all the evidences yet to found show Gülen jamaat. Of course it will only be proven after the investigation is finalized but it is not officially proven yet. "If" it is not gülenists who did it, though I give zero chance, I can confess your "intelligence". However, at this point you are not capable of proving innocense of the jamaat too. We will just wait and see the result. I am not a promoter of Erdoğan. I oppose him severly and condemn his unjust actions towards all groups including Gülen jamaat members who are unrelated to the coup. I condemn his unjust actions towards kurdish speakers who are unrelated to PKK too. But, well, what the heck this has anything to do with promoting anti Turkist claims? I can creat a video telling all Kurds are gays and upload it in YT. So, where is the proof? There is not one single evidence in these videos showing it was the Turkish military shooting those people deliberatly. Just two monkeys and a Syrian man telling that. You need more. Unless you do it is called a propoganda.

Funny thing is, just recenctly Selahattin Demirtas released a letter that talked about Erdogan already have branded him as a terrorist, while the trial has not even ended. This indeed showed much "bias" leaning as the trial being unfair to begin with. I however based on just observation that Erdogan will be the cause of collapse of Turkey. As a Kurd i can tell you with experience is the weakest link for example with Kurds is, we do not have unity. What made Turks stronger, was they had the unity what Kurds did not have. Erdogan is doing exactly that thing that breaks the unity. Gulen supporters hate Erdogan en kemalists, kemalists hate Erdogan and Gulen, Erdogan hates Gulen and Kemalists. There is also NOTHING that one can even think of it, that will wipe this disunity. It ONLY is resulting in to civil war, just matter of time.

About Gulen behind the coup, they being in the army or high position, i am not denying that. Because that was simply a FACT. However what i do is i analyze the coup and based on the observations i ask questions. To give you a few.

- The coup was VERY VERY SLOPPY. Sloppy is even softly expressed. When a coup is attempted there is a CLEAR plan to take hostage person X, Y and Z, building A, B, C know were they are etc. etc. This didn't happen in the slightest.
- Within a VERY small amount of time they already came with LISTS of people as these are part of Gulen and thus terrorists. What logic says is, it NEEDS time to process who is who and put the names on paper so to say. But all the names were already "printed" you could say, so those guys could be prosecuted. This doesn't make sense if it was a real coup.
- Another thing is if a coup was going on, the leader that the coup was going against, would rather sit out until it was safe. While he rather already within the same day or hours i believe returned..this doesn't make sense.

So as a conclusion i am saying, this is very fishy. It rather looks like a staged coup so it makes it very easy to clean the country of people who MIGHT be double agents. The results of the investigation also, don't really look like they will say what are the facts. Why? Because when somebody is already being branded a terrorist, while the investigation is not done, well you know already what is gonna happen.

About the video of "anti-Turkish" propaganda. Turkish is one thing, Turkish army/politics is another thing. This video is rather aimed at Turkish army/politics. Because right now many things happen and it looks like things are being accepted.

For the sake of argument lets say that video is fake indeed. It is a lie and they are trying to twist things in such a way to make the Turks look bad. The question is why? Why would they do that right? I mean if we talk about Kurds (YPG), well it is clear, now is the question why would the Arabs that do not live in Kurdish areas want to make the Turks look bad? Because that guy in the video, doesn't really look like a pro-Assad guy, so that means he is either pro-ISIS or pro-rebels/FSA. We know in both of the cases of ISIS and FSA, Turkey has supported them both in the past. That is a fact, you cannot deny that.

Now what has Turkey done, that such a video would be released to want to make the Turks look bad? All i can conclude is Turkey(politics/army) turning their back on the people that they were helping before. Why would Turkey do such a thing is the next question. It comes down to their OWN POLITICAL INTERESTS not really interests of others although they might be oppressed by groups like Assad.

So even IF we for the sake of argument say yes this is propaganda and we both might agree to that, other questions arise or better said clarity comes to find reasons why such a propaganda might be revealed.

Now, either way, be it a propaganda video or not a propaganda video, it shows something that we rather might ponder about the Turks ..aka Turkish politcs/army aka Erdogan.

So what does this conclude so to say? It says rather, do NOT trust the Turks, as they have no principles. All they care is about their own political interests, not about oppression.

format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb

Can anyone trust the results of investigation when it´s made by Erdogan party himself? They surely want that evidencies show the coup was made by gulenists.

Turkey is a democracy and we have free elections for 90 years almost and when the man's party elected by votes then that man and his party can form a government. and that government's ministers like justice etc. can appoint some judiciary members.

does that mean " erdoğan's judiciary" or "the elected and legitimate government's appointments" ?