Turks shooting at civilians that are on Syrian territory

format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian

Of course torture is a crime and what they do can not be supported but this video too lacks information. Who are those people? Were they just innocent people or criminals? Why are the soldiers beating them? We cant understand these from the video.

Apart from that, you still promote your antiturkist propoganda. These are three Turkish soldiers and you want to associate what they do with the entire Turkish people by saying "Turks". Thats so cheap.

You LACK A LOT of Islamic understanding. It doesn't matter that if the guys torturing were YOUR AND MY own parents. Islam PROHIBITS torturing of prisoners for the sake of hatred or useless enjoyment.

Your comment shows that you rather put Islam on #2 and Turkish perspective on #1. When i judge something that i see, i first look at WHAT IS THE NORM? What norm am i talking about? The yardstick that i judge things by. When i see somebody being mistreated, like this example. It doesn't matter if they are criminals..it doesn't matter if they just killed my and your brother, we judge according to Islam. If Islamic law says eye for an eye, it does NOT say you are permitted to torture them first before they being killed.

That is why i often say, clean your heart dude. Because on the Day Of Judgement you would have wished you have done what i advised to do so. You have said in the past Erdogan is no angel, nobody is an angel, we are human beings. However a Muslim who makes mistakes is clear from a hypocrite. Muslim blood is MORE sacred than Ka'bah it self, however you KNOW Erdogan and many nationalistic Turks including many nationalistic Kurds do not look from that perspective.

CLEAN YOUR HEART..because you are not promised tomorrow.

format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian

I dont promote everything what the Turkish army or officials or people do anyway. I have just admited that what they do is wrong in that video. However your attempt of disgracing Turkish nation as a whole is obvious and not respect worthy. Turks have been one of the best people on this planet on many aspects of life throughout history. Everybody says the same thing except the ones who are jaelous with us. It comes from both Islam and our historical culture. As for the Turkish army.. They have been merciful towards the weak but harsh towards the traitor most of the time. And if one day Muslims releave from oppresion it will be by the army of the Turk, I assure you.

The future will decide that. I have tried many times to reasonably talk to Turks, but the brainwashing based only on nationalism have made them blind for what is truly going on. So again, future will decide the fate of the Turks and if you ask me for what i am concluding based on the input i get ...it doesn't look good for it. A piece of land that will be engulfed in anarchy. From the little that we do know, Islamic end of times also somehow confirms that Turkey will be chaotic. If it happens within 10 years, 100 years or 1000 years...only Allah knows when. But it is not the matter of "if".

- - - Updated - - -

format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb

I believe that Turkish people are good ones and that´s why we could (even at once) discuss here without turning this kind of threads to blaming each others (nothing personal against anyone but it seems to be quite common when we talk about conflicts between people). So, calm down everyone and let´s talk only about the facts (if we can find them from the jungle of propaganda for and against).

The problem is that nobody asks the question of how come PKK exists? Have they asked people who are pro-PKK why PKK exists? Have they asked Kurds why they think PKK exist. All you hear from Turks is PKK has come to existence to divide the Muslims and to destroy Turkey etc. etc. However when the question is raised of what has and is happening in Turkey, they ignore you. If somebody ignores me and what i have to say, sorry but this person automatically becomes my enemy even if they say they are a Muslim.

A rational human being would indeed admit that if you in the past would have oppressed me and are still trying to do or not anymore, i have NO TRUST in you. However this simple approach Turks somehow cannot process. Allah has made them blind for what they are doing. So all they are doing is further more dig their own grave, because nationalism is all they pursue. The mouth speaks what the heart contains, the mind thinks what the heart contains. When a animal is cornered, it will do what it desires the most. It will NO longer think of anything else, just do everything to survive.

This war with Syria, we also have seen with Erdogan. Erdogan said to Barzani (a leader of south Kurdish (modern day northern Iraq)) that they will help them to any enemy when they are in danger. Back in 2014 ISIS almost invaded Erbil, Turkey was no where to be seen. ISIS had for so many years borders with Turkey, Turkey did NOTHING..suddenly when YPG took over, Turkey took action. YPG conquered more and more and Turkey took also more action. Turkey gave weapons to armed groups in Syria, and Turkish news agencies reported this to the public, however those people were put in jail. Now even Erdogan is buying S400 Ground-to-Air missile system from Russia, however they took a loan from Russia to be able to pay for it. Last time i checked riba (taking ribba or paying ribba) was FORBIDDEN in Islam. and MUCH MUCH MUCH more.. things that i left unsaid.

Islam is clear on certain things and NO interpretation is needed, while on other subjects it is left for interpretation. Where are the Turks that say i am a Muslim, but go by the rulings of a hypocrite? Saying somebody is a hypocrite is not easy, but their actions will make them visible as sky is clear from the earth. Day of Judgement will NOT go easy for Turks who say they are Muslim, but do whatever they want to do to keep their mouth shut ALL for unity among Turks, ALTHOUGH what is happening goes AGAINST Islamic teachings.

format_quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person

The future will decide that. I have tried many times to reasonably talk to Turks, but the brainwashing based only on nationalism have made them blind for what is truly going on. So again, future will decide the fate of the Turks and if you ask me for what i am concluding based on the input i get ...it doesn't look good for it. A piece of land that will be engulfed in anarchy. From the little that we do know, Islamic end of times also somehow confirms that Turkey will be chaotic. If it happens within 10 years, 100 years or 1000 years...only Allah knows when. But it is not the matter of "if".

- - - Updated - - -



The problem is that nobody asks the question of how come PKK exists? Have they asked people who are pro-PKK why PKK exists? Have they asked Kurds why they think PKK exist. All you hear from Turks is PKK has come to existence to divide the Muslims and to destroy Turkey etc. etc. However when the question is raised of what has and is happening in Turkey, they ignore you. If somebody ignores me and what i have to say, sorry but this person automatically becomes my enemy even if they say they are a Muslim.

A rational human being would indeed admit that if you in the past would have oppressed me and are still trying to do or not anymore, i have NO TRUST in you. However this simple approach Turks somehow cannot process. Allah has made them blind for what they are doing. So all they are doing is further more dig their own grave, because nationalism is all they pursue. The mouth speaks what the heart contains, the mind thinks what the heart contains. When a animal is cornered, it will do what it desires the most. It will NO longer think of anything else, just do everything to survive.

This war with Syria, we also have seen with Erdogan. Erdogan said to Barzani (a leader of south Kurdish (modern day northern Iraq)) that they will help them to any enemy when they are in danger. Back in 2014 ISIS almost invaded Erbil, Turkey was no where to be seen. ISIS had for so many years borders with Turkey, Turkey did NOTHING..suddenly when YPG took over, Turkey took action. YPG conquered more and more and Turkey took also more action. Turkey gave weapons to armed groups in Syria, and Turkish news agencies reported this to the public, however those people were put in jail. Now even Erdogan is buying S400 Ground-to-Air missile system from Russia, however they took a loan from Russia to be able to pay for it. Last time i checked riba (taking ribba or paying ribba) was FORBIDDEN in Islam. and MUCH MUCH MUCH more.. things that i left unsaid.

Islam is clear on certain things and NO interpretation is needed, while on other subjects it is left for interpretation. Where are the Turks that say i am a Muslim, but go by the rulings of a hypocrite? Saying somebody is a hypocrite is not easy, but their actions will make them visible as sky is clear from the earth. Day of Judgement will NOT go easy for Turks who say they are Muslim, but do whatever they want to do to keep their mouth shut ALL for unity among Turks, ALTHOUGH what is happening goes AGAINST Islamic teachings.

I'm sorry if I've offended you in the past, bro. But anyway, I agree with you, nationalism is a cancer, all across the Muslim world, including in Turkey. What I find with Turkish people (or most groups of Muslims for that matter) is that they put the needs of their nation above the needs of the ummah. Every Muslim nation thinks it is the center of everything, and thy put their petty arguments with each other over everything else, and shed blood in the name of nationalism. Nationalism, especially the "anti-imperialist" kind, makes a nation turn authoritarian, autocratic, and ignorant about human dignity in the shariah. But as soon as any Muslim or non-Muslim nations points this out, they are labeled as "imperialists". Turkish people I have found are too proud. And I agree, the PKK didn't just come out of nowhere. While I don't support the PKK, I agree that they came to this point by becoming desperate through the cultural genocide, forced assimilation, vote rigging in the Southeast by "Village Guards" (In April 16 referendum, as shown by Al Monitor), military rule, excessive force, false flag attacks, etc. Many Kurdish cities have been leveled to rubble and been destroyed, and even the United Nations has condemned Turkey's use of excessive force (much like Assad in Syria or Israel in Gaza).

format_quote Originally Posted by Mustafa16

I'm sorry if I've offended you in the past, bro. But anyway, I agree with you, nationalism is a cancer, all across the Muslim world, including in Turkey. What I find with Turkish people (or most groups of Muslims for that matter) is that they put the needs of their nation above the needs of the ummah. Every Muslim nation thinks it is the center of everything, and thy put their petty arguments with each other over everything else, and shed blood in the name of nationalism. Nationalism, especially the "anti-imperialist" kind, makes a nation turn authoritarian, autocratic, and ignorant about human dignity in the shariah. But as soon as any Muslim or non-Muslim nations points this out, they are labeled as "imperialists". Turkish people I have found are too proud. And I agree, the PKK didn't just come out of nowhere. While I don't support the PKK, I agree that they came to this point by becoming desperate through the cultural genocide, forced assimilation, vote rigging in the Southeast by "Village Guards" (In April 16 referendum, as shown by Al Monitor), military rule, excessive force, false flag attacks, etc. Many Kurdish cities have been leveled to rubble and been destroyed, and even the United Nations has condemned Turkey's use of excessive force (much like Assad in Syria or Israel in Gaza).

What i said goes also for you. Stop the whole "gulenist" approach. You do not need to follow any group to have benefits. You love science + Islam? Well nobody here is against this rather i believe majority on this forum and Muslims are pro science + Islam, but nobody says they are Gulenists. I have said in the past, Gulen approach is a glass is full of water, but a drop of oil is added(nationalism), it becomes undrinkable. Think about what i am trying to tell you. It is not trying to insult you or whatever, but you will end up in your grave and the questions that will be asked will NOT be about being a Gulenist. Islam is already complete and nowhere does it prohibit us to pursue science, it even promotes us to investigate and to question..to pursue a way to go and discover more ayaat of Allah through scientific discoveries.

I daily ponder about the wisdom behind certain actions in Islam and not one month goes by if i ponder about it, that i find new amazing piece of wisdom that again strengthens my imaan.

Think because when you end up in your grave NO other pro-Gulen member will join you. You are on your own and ONLY Allah will help you as He only is sufficient for each and every one of us.

format_quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person

What i said goes also for you. Stop the whole "gulenist" approach. You do not need to follow any group to have benefits. You love science + Islam? Well nobody here is against this rather i believe majority on this forum and Muslims are pro science + Islam, but nobody says they are Gulenists. I have said in the past, Gulen approach is a glass is full of water, but a drop of oil is added(nationalism), it becomes undrinkable. Think about what i am trying to tell you. It is not trying to insult you or whatever, but you will end up in your grave and the questions that will be asked will NOT be about being a Gulenist. Islam is already complete and nowhere does it prohibit us to pursue science, it even promotes us to investigate and to question..to pursue a way to go and discover more ayaat of Allah through scientific discoveries.

I daily ponder about the wisdom behind certain actions in Islam and not one month goes by if i ponder about it, that i find new amazing piece of wisdom that again strengthens my imaan.

Think because when you end up in your grave NO other pro-Gulen member will join you. You are on your own and ONLY Allah will help you as He only is sufficient for each and every one of us.

I wouldn't say I was a Gulenist to begin with. I attended their sunday school classes as a kid and went to activities with and received religious instruction from "elder brothers"up until the beginning of 8th grade, went to Eid prayers twice a year because i never had a driver's license and my mother drove me there, (I attend friday prayer at a different masjid), and used to go to other events a few times a year simply to see girls and people my family know. I don't believe in their ideology, I always say no to going to events whenever my mentor (an old man, not an "elder brother") asks, I only attendeda sohbet once, (religious discussion surrounding Said Nursi's Rirsale-i-Nur), I know some people, but I don't agree with them having (previously, long ago) entered politics taking a side and doing their work, and I was never taught in any of the classes about "Turkish nationalism". In sunday school, i would learn turkish, but only because everyone there was turkish, and i wouldn't be taught that "turks are a great race" or "turks are a great nation," etc. only "the ottoman empire used to be the most powerful nation on Earth because they followed true Islamic values" so it was more of an Islamic tilt, rather than a nationalist one. we never discussed the kurdish issue, or politics (in classes and religious events) other than after the failed coup when we were under persecution. I don't understand exactly where you ae getting this idea that we are "Turkish nationalists and that means you should stay away" sure, there was some nationalism before, like when we allied with the AKP, but that was mostly when they were leaning towards Islamist rather than nationalist (only recently have they begun to seek the nationalist vote). and also how in our schools around the world they teach turkish, ok, THAT I have to hand to you, but their is nothing wrong with their aqeedah, and we don't all agree on the same things anyway. we follow the ashari school of aqeedah, believe in seal of Prophethood to Muhammad (SAWS), 5 pillars of Islam, 6 pillars of faith, Islamic practices and rituals, sober sufism, segregation of sexes, we DO NOT believe Gulen is Mahdi, we believe in tawheed, and don't do grave worship (asking dead people to make dua for you), feel sorry for muslim brothers and sisters who are oppressed, etc.

format_quote Originally Posted by Mustafa16

I wouldn't say I was a Gulenist to begin with. I attended their sunday school classes as a kid and went to activities with and received religious instruction from "elder brothers"up until the beginning of 8th grade, went to Eid prayers twice a year because i never had a driver's license and my mother drove me there, (I attend friday prayer at a different masjid), and used to go to other events a few times a year simply to see girls and people my family know. I don't believe in their ideology, I always say no to going to events whenever my mentor (an old man, not an "elder brother") asks, I only attendeda sohbet once, (religious discussion surrounding Said Nursi's Rirsale-i-Nur), I know some people, but I don't agree with them having (previously, long ago) entered politics taking a side and doing their work, and I was never taught in any of the classes about "Turkish nationalism". In sunday school, i would learn turkish, but only because everyone there was turkish, and i wouldn't be taught that "turks are a great race" or "turks are a great nation," etc. only "the ottoman empire used to be the most powerful nation on Earth because they followed true Islamic values" so it was more of an Islamic tilt, rather than a nationalist one. we never discussed the kurdish issue, or politics (in classes and religious events) other than after the failed coup when we were under persecution. I don't understand exactly where you ae getting this idea that we are "Turkish nationalists and that means you should stay away" sure, there was some nationalism before, like when we allied with the AKP, but that was mostly when they were leaning towards Islamist rather than nationalist (only recently have they begun to seek the nationalist vote). and also how in our schools around the world they teach turkish, ok, THAT I have to hand to you, but their is nothing wrong with their aqeedah, and we don't all agree on the same things anyway. we follow the ashari school of aqeedah, believe in seal of Prophethood to Muhammad (SAWS), 5 pillars of Islam, 6 pillars of faith, Islamic practices and rituals, sober sufism, segregation of sexes, we DO NOT believe Gulen is Mahdi, we believe in tawheed, and don't do grave worship (asking dead people to make dua for you), feel sorry for muslim brothers and sisters who are oppressed, etc.

To see where it is the 1 drop of oil, you have to look deep. If a group teaches you certain language that does not really benefit you in the advances of Islamic understanding, this is the sideline. What i am talking about is Turkish language. In south Kurdistan (modern day northern Iraq) there were also such schools that indeed promote the loving of Turkish nation with it teaching Turkish to the students. Btw, if you say ..look he is saying "south Kurdistan" so that is nationalism. I do NOT acknowledge Sykes–Picot Agreement or any other treaty that has divided Muslims. Kurdistan simple means the place where the Kurds are. So if even a large city in US has a large community of Kurds, that would technically also be named Kurdistan in city X. Why do i not acknowledge all those treaties? I do not play by their game, if i through psychological means accept a "Turkey, Iraq, Syria, Jordan etc. etc. that means that i have accepted their treaties. Which i don't and i speak out about it. When i am asked which ethnicity i am i also say i am a Kurd when they say from which part i say from Kurdistan. Then when they try to downplay it, i give them the reality of things. Because Muslims being brainwashed is the first step by accepting the treaties that divide the Muslims. Do not be a sheep.

Now is the question, what has loving the Turkish nation to do with getting Islamic knowledge and understanding? Or learning Turkish has to do with being able to understand Islamic knowledge. That being said, within your comment you also brought forth that the Ottoman empire "followed true Islamic values". This also is NOT true. The drop of oil in the glass of water can only be seen when you question things. How often do you see that the "followers" of such groups question the "drop of oil"? You will not rather you will see..just sheep...beeehhh..



I'm not sure what you mean by "sober sufism" and i never have claimed that they see Gulen as a Mahdi or that sort. A group branding itself certain name besides Muslim is already ingredients of deviation. I even hate to "admit" to other people that i am a Sunni-Muslim, rather i say i am a Muslim. Although these days if you follow Allah and His messenger (Qur'an and AUTHENTIC ahadith) you are automatically branded as such as you follow the sunnah (sunni).

format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000

Something we all need to keep in mind is that Turkish people have been forced away from Islam after the sabotaging of what remained of the khilafah, and since there was only national news and no international discussion or outside information except from travellers, it was difficult for many to stay in touch with Islam, especially with all the vilification, threats, and trend setting by secularists in positions of national governement. The secularist anti islamic machine was basically built there by those behind the dismemberment of the khilafah and hordes of idiots were funded and supported heavily with the aim of erasing it's islamic roots since it was like a critical bufferzone between the so called christian/Godless and islamic nations. Apparently even private islamic evening classes were banned and people had to secretly teach their children and teachers lived under threat of arrest.

Despite all this, many struggled to keep the torch of faith alight and we are seeing a positive Islamic resurgence in the country.
The negative parts - many of us have seen, but I believe there needs to be a focus on promotion of Islam - especially due to the fact that it is one of the - if not the - most respectful of Islam out of countries west of it's borders.
Comparing turkey with syria in terms of adherence to Islam is therefore difficult due to the many variables.
Got to remember that these kids grew up in a nationalistic fervour and drumbeating in state schools and that secularism was used in an attempt to replace God by the criminal sellout kemalists.

To be VERY honest, the Turks that mostly live in Turkey are victims of propaganda and as a LOGICAL AND RATIONAL person i could agree to this and give them this excuse. However what about Turks outside Turkey? Have you ever tried to talk to those? What excuse do they have of not knowing something or not being able to know something as it is being prevented. Although even for Turks that do live in Turkey, now a days with internet to have dialogue with others outside the borders has NEVER become this easy. So based on this perspective they have no argument why they do what they do. What i recently have noticed people in general just do NOT care about what is happening. All they care about is getting money and feeding their children. Even recently i tried to teach some acquaintances of mine (western people) something. I said some things that shocked them coming from my mouth, later on i said have you given any thought why i said what i said? They said we are too busy and have no time to think about it. Later on i said this is EXACTLY what corrupt politicians want you to do. They gather you like sheep to the left if they do not want you to go to the right and they guide you to the right if they do not want you to go to the left. They said we are on our own..what can we do about it? I said, stop voting in elections as it is all corrupt. The reactions was more then enough..they laughed and got in to the car although they KNOW what i said is true about politics being only lies and deceit. That is when i realized these people will NOT think for themselves. Just leave them in their day to day life. But slowly taking a step away from them as they are not willing to think about anything else, besides the usual day-to-day nonsense. Such people with such shallow way of thinking will even report you as they are not willing to give what you say any thought or ask you questions why you said what you said.

format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000

I think one country cannot push external bullying and meddling of secularists away by itself very easily, and that there are many complicated scenarios behind the scenes, but I do think it will become easier as people continue to wake up and support their governments in positive Islamic projects - whilst dissenting against injustice and at the same time, looking at the overall picture so that they don't fall for the trick of being co-opted to push over their government when a frenzy is worked up by neocon and zionist secularists if a decision to overthrow gets made in washington because the leader didn't betray his people nearly as much as the crooks wanted.

We live in a time where "our" leaders are the most unsuitable and most evil among us. So how can such a leader/government try to bring up a Islamic project. With secularist, it reminds me of hadith about end time of i believe shari'a being implemented all over the world even when the disbelievers do not like it. In other words shove it down their throats when we talk about democratic elections. There are some people who are willing to listen to what you have to say. For example why certain shari'a rules are like that. While others are such evil human beings that Allah has taken away any small wisdom or knowledge or patience. They will rebel even if YOU give them money..rather they want more of it and feel like as if you have done them injustice by not giving them more money all though it was your money and they have no right to claim it.

If we would implemented the whole democratic approach to it and thus majority wanting shari'a being implemented you see the double standards of secularist. However if this would be implemented people like Erdogan for example or Saudi Arabian leaders would be tried immediately. As there is no separation between religion and state. They would be held accountable for taking decisions that are contradictory to Islamic law.

format_quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person

Watch and judge for yourself. Propaganda is one thing (white helmets) always depicting Turks for example as innocent and others as barbarians.

For sure on the day of judgement no criminal will be able to escape their judgement.

BE AWARE..GRAPHICAL!!

thats lie and you should be banned for this lie and black propaganda!

turkey hosts 3.500.000 innocent syrian refugees from all religions and races.