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    Yemen Cholera epidemic is US and Saudi made

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    Salaam

    Another update on the situation in Yemen

    Yemen Cholera epidemic is US and Saudi made!

    Yemen is a country that has been ravaged by war and is on the brink of famine. Two years of horrific conflict has killed more than 10,000 people, wounded 45,000 others, and displaced more than 11 percent of the country’s 26 million people.

    Yemen is now facing the worst cholera outbreak in the world, according to international health authorities.

    The outbreak has surpassed 200,000 cases, and that number is growing by 5,000 a day.

    “In just two months, cholera has spread to almost every (part) of this war-torn country”, said World Health Organization (WHO) Director-General Margaret Chan and UNICEF Executive Director Anthony Lake in a joint statement.

    More than 1,300 people have already died — one quarter of them children and the death toll is expected to rise.

    Cholera is caused by ingesting food or water contaminated with the bacterium Vibrio cholerae. If left untreated, it can cause severe dehydration and eventual death.

    Cholera is preventable and easily treatable with the proper resources, said Kurt Tjossem, the International Rescue Committee’s regional director for East Africa and the Horn. In Yemen, however, the collapsing infrastructure has cut off an estimated 14.5 million people — about half the country’s population from regular access to clean water, increasing the likelihood for the disease to spread.

    The crisis is “man-made,” said Stephen O’Brien, the U.N. under-secretary-general for humanitarian affairs and emergency relief coordinator, in a statement last week. For the past two years, Yemen has been embroiled in a civil war between Houthi rebels from the north of the country and a coalition of Arab states, led by Saudi Arabia and supported by the United States.

    “The cholera epidemic is in part due to the bombing of the water supply in Sana’a”, Senator Chris Murphy, D-Conn said. “There is a U.S. imprint on every civilian death inside Yemen.”

    The problem in Yemen is even worse considering the ever-widening issue of food insecurity and malnutrition, where 2.2 million children suffer from acute malnutrition.

    When malnutrition rises, the immunity of children falls, which makes them more susceptible to diseases like cholera.

    Yemen’s economy is crumbling and health care workers continue to work without any pay. According to UNICEF and WHO, an estimated 30,000 local health workers have not been paid their salaries for nearly 10 months.

    Almost half the country’s medical facilities have been destroyed. A Yemeni child dies every 10 minutes from the combined effects of hunger and lack of medical facilities.

    Yemen has been torn to pieces. The war which is Saudi led and driven by the US ambitions, has left millions of people at the mercy of deadly diseases like Cholera. Poverty has cursed the population where mothers hold their dying children helpless, not knowing where their next portion of food and water will come from.

    Saudi led forces have targeted farms, food facilities, water infrastructure, marketplaces, and even the port of Hudaidah, where most of the humanitarian aid was entering the country. Further crimes include of the Saud is the bombing of a funeral procession in October 2016 that resulted in 150 causalities.

    However Trump clinched an enormous $110bn deal during his trip to the kingdom in May, which will be used to bomb and murder more people in Yemen. The Saud family promised Trump that their military would undergo rigorous US training to reduce civilian casualties, signing a $750m training program.

    The treacherous royal family went further still and agreed that US advisers would sit in their air operations control centre.

    It is a damning indictment on the Saudi Kingdom that it has inflicted terrible pain on the Muslims of Yemen and then boasts to the Muslim world that they are the ‘Custodians of the Two Holy Mosques’. The Saud regime are only Custodians to America. Treachery is in their bloodstream and programmed in their DNA, from the days when Ibn Saud was handed Makkah and Medinah by British colonial forces. Just like the Saud family obeyed Britain in the past, they now obey in servitude the USA.

    There is only one solution to Yemen and that is to challenge the colonial agenda of the West in that land via the reestablishment of the Khilafah Rashidah.

    Since the destruction of the Khilafah, the entire Arab world has been plagued with rulers that are the most evil and deceitful in Islamic history. These rulers support the bombing of Muslim countries like Yemen and pay no heed to the spread of diseases like Cholera, that cause terrible suffering to the people. Only when the rulers of the Arab world are removed and the Ummah has a just leader that applies the Ruling of Allah, will all people gain protection from the malicious design of brutal vultures.

    http://www.hizb.org.uk/news-comment/yemen-cholera-epidemic-us-saudi-made/

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    Re: Yemen Cholera epidemic is US and Saudi made

    Salaam

    Another update

    Saudi Bombing Is Destroying My Country and the UK Is Helping Them Do It

    Safa Al-Shamy gives her perspective on the motivations for the Saudi attack on her country, Yemen, the humanitarian crisis it has caused

    I was visiting Cairo when the Saudi airstrikes on Yemen began on 26 March 2015. One of their first targets was the airport at Sana’a, the Yemeni capital, which was hit by an airstrike. I couldn’t get a flight back home and was stuck in Cairo for three months. Afterwards, I was able to return to Yemen, but the ongoing attack meant I was unable to work. Although both of my parents are Yemeni, I was born in the UK and have a British passport, so I decided to come to the UK in December 2015.

    The situation in Yemen now is very difficult. People are exposed to daily airstrikes by Saudi Arabia and its alliance. Yemen has been under blockade and siege since March 2015. As a result, thousands of Yemeni men, women and children have been killed. Thousands more have been injured, many of whom are in need of urgent treatment. However, there’s a lack of basic healthcare and medicines due to the blockade imposed on the country by the Saudi-led coalition, particularly at Sana’a airport and Hodeidah port.

    Many people in Yemen have lost their jobs because of the aggression. The airstrikes have caused massive destruction to the infrastructure of the country. The attacks have damaged schools, factories, mosques, farms, and historical sites. This destruction has caused serious economic problems.

    A recent decree that the central bank will be moved to Aden was supported by the Saudi government to put more pressure on the Yemeni people to surrender. Controversially, almost all Yemeni employees who are working governmental jobs haven’t received their salaries for the last eight months.

    Hundreds of thousands of internally-displaced people are scattered all over Yemen because of the heavy airstrikes which have damaged residential buildings across the country. Starvation has spread; the poorest are now dying. Recent media reports are starting to emerge which highlight the seriousness of the situation, and how children in Yemen need urgent assistance.

    Sana’a Airport has been attacked many times and remains closed by the Saudi-led coalition. As a result, thousands of Yemenis are stuck abroad and can’t return to their homes. Many are suffering from disease; a cholera outbreak is already ravaging the country.

    The motivation for this aggression against my country is that the Yemeni people don’t want to follow the Saudi path in everything. The Saudis want Yemen to be a follower and not an independent country, with its own sovereignty.

    This is not just about Saudi Arabia, however. The aggression on Yemen involves an alliance of countries. One of these is the United Arab Emirates (UAE), which is trying to control Aden port to its advantage. This is, in essence, a form of theft. I’ve also heard that the Emiratis are starting to invest in projects in Yemen’s Socotra island, as if the island was their property.

    Meanwhile, Saudi Arabia is continuing its siege on Hodeidah port, the country’s economic artery, thus preventing the arrival of food and medical assistance to Yemeni’s civilian population.

    I no longer believe this aggression is motivated by sectarianism, I believe this is about colonising and stealing my country’s wealth and controlling its sea ports.

    The Saudis and Emiratis, along with their allies, are imposing a general siege on Yemen, and the economic blockade is a key part of that. They won’t allow imports into Yemen bar a few items, and when they do, they place their own products on Yemeni supermarkets and shops.

    In the meantime, Yemen’s oil and gas wealth is being smuggled abroad through mercenaries. Because of this, Yemenis are suffering from oil and gas shortages, with the limited supplies being sold at exorbitant prices.

    The Yemeni people have no intention to harm Saudi Arabia. We want to live in peace as good neighbours. However, since March 2015, the Saudi government has been killing Yemeni people and destroying all of the country’s capabilities without any sensible or concrete reason.

    They have achieved nothing in Yemen except destruction. They have created a human catastrophe, which will take many years to fix.

    My whole family, and all my friends, are in Yemen, and I really miss them. I haven’t been able to see them for a long time due to the airport closure imposed by the blockade. This is one of the ways through which the Saudi government and its allies are imposing their siege on Yemenis.

    Britain has played a significant role in supporting the Saudi attack on Yemen by conducting huge arms deals with the Saudi government. With few exceptions, the British media has not been showing the reality of the miserable situation in Yemen. These reasons are enough to say the UK is an essential partner in Saudi Arabia’s ongoing killing and maiming and starving of Yemeni civilians.

    The worlds’s largest arms fair, DSEI, is coming to London this September. As with previous fairs, an official Saudi political and military delegation will be there, shopping for more weapons. I don’t think that the Saudi government, or any government for that matter, should be allowed to attend. In fact, I don’t think that the fair should take place at all.

    The British people now have more awareness of what’s going on inside their country as well as outside with relation to their government’s foreign policy. People in the UK should tell their government that improving the UK economy should not be achieved by killing more and more people abroad. Instead of selling weapons, Britain could be building strong, moral and sincere mutual relationships with other countries.

    Ordinary people globally should realise what’s going on in Yemen, and put more pressure on their governments to provide urgent assistance to the Yemeni nation.

    http://www.stopwar.org.uk/index.php/news-comment/2721-saudi-bombing-is-destroying-my-country-and-the-uk-is-helping-them-do-it

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    Re: Yemen Cholera epidemic is US and Saudi made

    Dunno if "uae" in military terms is actually uae, it's usually blackwater (usually columbian ex-farc mercenaries), when you see an action abroad using the pen name "uae", the sandhurst trained amir - God knows what his actual motivations are....

    Reports are emerging of ex-Blackwater CEO's increasing involvement in the UAE's military affairs, with few, if any, UAE citizens actually involved in its army exercises. Tags: UAE, Blackwater, Devos, Trump, Erik Prince, Frontier Services Group, Reflex Responses Company
    The UAE army has been working for years to strengthen its military capability, yet only a small percentage of its operational staff actually hold UAE passports, it has emerged.

    https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/ne...o-run-its-army



    Notice here that "uae" apparently had little to do with decision making, whilst eric prince continued for trump exactly what he was doing for bush and obama in iraq, afghanistan, and elsewhere.


    The approval of the Yakla raid did not follow the rigorous procedure used during the administrations of George W. Bush and Barack Obama, which involved a Situation Room meeting that detailed the operational plan, operational goals, a risk assessment (to both U.S. personnel and civilians), and a legal assessment of the operation. Instead, the raid was approved over dinner conversations between Trump, his son-in-law and adviser Jared Kushner, his special adviser Stephen Bannon, and Defense Secretary Jim Mattis.[32] Mattis, along with General Joseph Dunford, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, presented the plan; then-National Security Advisor Michael Flynn was also at the dinner.[33]

    The decision did not go through the normal National Security Council (NSC) channels, through which heads or deputy heads of all agencies with a stake in the operation would be consulted.[33] U.S. military officials stated that the assault went forth "without sufficient intelligence, ground support, or adequate backup preparations."

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakla_raid


    .......The force is intended to conduct special operations missions inside and outside the country, defend oil pipelines and skyscrapers from terrorist attacks and put down internal revolts, the documents show........


    .........Knowing that his ventures are magnets for controversy, Mr. Prince has masked his involvement with the mercenary battalion. His name is not included on contracts and most other corporate documents, and company insiders have at times tried to hide his identity by referring to him by the code name “Kingfish.” But three former employees, speaking on the condition of anonymity because of confidentiality agreements, and two people involved in security contracting described Mr. Prince’s central role.

    The former employees said that in recruiting the Colombians and others from halfway around the world, Mr. Prince’s subordinates were following his strict rule: hire no Muslims.

    Muslim soldiers, Mr. Prince warned, could not be counted on to kill fellow Muslims.


    A Lucrative Deal

    Last spring, as waiters in the lobby of the Park Arjaan by Rotana Hotel passed by carrying cups of Turkish coffee, a small team of Blackwater and American military veterans huddled over plans for the foreign battalion. Armed with a black suitcase stuffed with several hundred thousand dollars’ worth of dirhams, the local currency, they began paying the first bills.

    The company, often called R2, was licensed last March with 51 percent local ownership, a typical arrangement in the Emirates. It received about $21 million in start-up capital from the U.A.E., the former employees said.

    https://mobile.nytimes.com/2011/05/1.../15prince.html
    Last edited by Abz2000; 2 Weeks Ago at 06:48 PM.
    Yemen Cholera epidemic is US and Saudi made

    Long ago has hope perished, as have our men of honor
    M.A



    The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress

    Frederick Douglas

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    Re: Yemen Cholera epidemic is US and Saudi made

    "There is only one solution to Yemen and that is to challenge the colonial agenda of the West in that land via the reestablishment of the Khilafah Rashidah."

    That's a rather ballsy move. As a Sunni force invades a Houthi/Zaydi/Shia group of people, whose affairs they have been meddling in for decades by the way, we are being told that a specifically Sunni model of political Islam and of religious supremacism is the only solution that can save these people that have never had any direct historical or religious connection to the caliphate model of leadership.

    For that reason alone, this has no chance of being an actual solution even in the most oddly favorable of theoretical forms. And more realistically, the caliphate model is and always has been a basically terrible system of leadership that has not produced good results. If all the current attempts at caliphate building are smashed to pieces and no one ever attempts to resurrect this terrible idea, the world will be a better place. The number of ideas that are better than this one is near infinite in scope.

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    Re: Yemen Cholera epidemic is US and Saudi made

    Quote Originally Posted by PRND View Post
    "There is only one solution to Yemen and that is to challenge the colonial agenda of the West in that land via the reestablishment of the Khilafah Rashidah."

    That's a rather ballsy move. As a Sunni force invades a Houthi/Zaydi/Shia group of people, whose affairs they have been meddling in for decades by the way, we are being told that a specifically Sunni model of political Islam and of religious supremacism is the only solution that can save these people that have never had any direct historical or religious connection to the caliphate model of leadership.

    For that reason alone, this has no chance of being an actual solution even in the most oddly favorable of theoretical forms. And more realistically, the caliphate model is and always has been a basically terrible system of leadership that has not produced good results. If all the current attempts at caliphate building are smashed to pieces and no one ever attempts to resurrect this terrible idea, the world will be a better place. The number of ideas that are better than this one is near infinite in scope.
    What are your just and workable, and better alternatives?
    I have up until now only seen criminality, injustice, and widespread corruption and falsehood, from all other systems which attempt to push alternatives to Islam.
    Also the unjustifiable and deceitful attempts to coerce people to reject Islam and to go astray - far astray - from a dignified and pure life show the weakness of such systems.

    What is better in your opinion?
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    Yemen Cholera epidemic is US and Saudi made

    Long ago has hope perished, as have our men of honor
    M.A



    The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress

    Frederick Douglas

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    Re: Yemen Cholera epidemic is US and Saudi made

    Quote Originally Posted by Abz2000 View Post
    What are your just and workable, and better alternatives?
    I have up until now only seen criminality, injustice, and widespread corruption and falsehood, from all other systems which attempt to push alternatives to Islam.
    Also the unjustifiable and deceitful attempts to coerce people to reject Islam and to go astray - far astray - from a dignified and pure life show the weakness of such systems.

    What is better in your opinion?
    Secular liberalism, which is essentially the opposite of supremacism. Opposition to religious compulsion and religious supremacism is not (and never will be) the same as opposition to religion proper, and you (specifically you) honestly need to disentangle these concepts.

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    Re: Yemen Cholera epidemic is US and Saudi made

    Secular liberalism is based on rejection of truth - and rejection of the authority of truth, there is no basis for morality or valid argument against cannibalism and robbery in secularism, nor is there any cohesive and workable community model present in it. Secularism is simply a tool to make masses of people oblivious of a basic foundation for anything and is an easy way to make masses of people submit to other people more powerful and slightly more intelligent than themselves.
    More mass killings have been perpetrated by secular regimes of the past century against their own populations and others than any previous tyrants in any other period of history - and the brutality and vindictiveness of wars are getting more gruesome. America - the largest example of secular liberalism - the first country of it's size to declare itself "free" of bondage to God in it's legilslature, is a predictable outcome of a disastrous experiment, proof of this is that a murderous and corrupt pimp is the people's representative and judge over them, their finances, and their way of life.....and also the fact that north central america is the biggest exporter of death on the planet and that it's economy depends on war at a constantly accelerating pace in order to churn.

    More proof of inconsistency is the potent and vehement intolerance and hatred of pure monotheism that grows then surfaces after a while in secular dominated nations, to the extent that human rights are even sujective with relation to monotheists.

    So please try to put things in full context.
    3 | Likes happymuslim, OmAbdullah, Yahya. liked this post
    Yemen Cholera epidemic is US and Saudi made

    Long ago has hope perished, as have our men of honor
    M.A



    The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress

    Frederick Douglas

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    Re: Yemen Cholera epidemic is US and Saudi made

    I have a handful of objections to your plan, but I mostly want to focus on a specific question that I want to get a coherent response to. First, those objections.

    It seems to me that in theory- in theory, I say, on paper and in theory- your idea is identical in form and intent to that of any of the caliphate building terrorists out there. You even want to wave a black flag and most likely set up your caliphate in the same sort of region where ongoing attempts are being made. I'll remind you that it always gets messy- you remember the First Fitnah, and the bloody fate of the first few caliphs?- and if you ever tried to put it into practice, you'd be one of those people who walks, acts, and quacks just like a terrorist. It's the same plan as all these other bad plans.

    Now on to that question. As I'm sure you're aware, the last caliphate was the Ottoman Empire. It actually was an empire, that's not an unfair term, it literally was an empire. Previous caliphates were also imperial and expansionist in nature. Soy question to you is this.

    Are you an imperialist? In other words, do you wish for a large number of Muslims to stop living in Westphalia style nation states and begin living under the rule of an empire? An empire that would probably be aggressively expansionist, awful to religious minorities, and a menace to the region, but that's beside the point.

    Are you an imperialist, in the sense that you really like the idea of an Islamic empire, an actual empire, and you literally want to see another Islamic empire- an actual empire- exist and be powerful and all of that.

    Are you an imperialist. You, specifically you, are you an imperialist? Answer the question please, don't get distracted, don't change the subject, don't you dare say WhatAbout in the process of dodging the question. I'm not asking about anyone else. I'm not asking you to identify some other type of person that's an imperialist. I'm specifically asking you to avoid getting distracted.

    You. Point to yourself. Do it. Are you an imperialist? I'm asking about you, so please answer the question and don't get lost.

    Thank you in advance, I do hope you can answer the question.

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    Re: Yemen Cholera epidemic is US and Saudi made

    Quote Originally Posted by PRND View Post
    I have a handful of objections to your plan, but I mostly want to focus on a specific question that I want to get a coherent response to. First, those objections.

    It seems to me that in theory- in theory, I say, on paper and in theory- your idea is identical in form and intent to that of any of the caliphate building terrorists out there. You even want to wave a black flag and most likely set up your caliphate in the same sort of region where ongoing attempts are being made. I'll remind you that it always gets messy- you remember the First Fitnah, and the bloody fate of the first few caliphs?- and if you ever tried to put it into practice, you'd be one of those people who walks, acts, and quacks just like a terrorist. It's the same plan as all these other bad plans.

    Now on to that question. As I'm sure you're aware, the last caliphate was the Ottoman Empire. It actually was an empire, that's not an unfair term, it literally was an empire. Previous caliphates were also imperial and expansionist in nature. Soy question to you is this.

    Are you an imperialist? In other words, do you wish for a large number of Muslims to stop living in Westphalia style nation states and begin living under the rule of an empire? An empire that would probably be aggressively expansionist, awful to religious minorities, and a menace to the region, but that's beside the point.

    Are you an imperialist, in the sense that you really like the idea of an Islamic empire, an actual empire, and you literally want to see another Islamic empire- an actual empire- exist and be powerful and all of that.

    Are you an imperialist. You, specifically you, are you an imperialist? Answer the question please, don't get distracted, don't change the subject, don't you dare say WhatAbout in the process of dodging the question. I'm not asking about anyone else. I'm not asking you to identify some other type of person that's an imperialist. I'm specifically asking you to avoid getting distracted.

    You. Point to yourself. Do it. Are you an imperialist? I'm asking about you, so please answer the question and don't get lost.

    Thank you in advance, I do hope you can answer the question.
    Sorry if I am asking a question, while you ask him a question, but I ask you one.

    On the topic of establishing an Islamic State, are you comparing any attempt of wanting an Islamic State as someone like ISIS?

    Don't you find it problematic when The flag of Tawheed (the black flag ISIS is holding) is associated with terrorism, any attempt of showing any want for Shariah rule would automatically make people, falsely, associate us with ISIS? Especially with the flag.

    I understand why ordinary people would be afraid of the sight of a Muslim holding such a flag or even speaking of an Islamic State because of the media control.

    I find this ISIS as an excuse to undermine any attempt of establishing an Islamic State.
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    Yemen Cholera epidemic is US and Saudi made

    Meaning of Shirk according to The Qur'an
    " Worshipping anyone or anything besides Allah " or " distributing anything exclusive to Allah, to anyone or anything else "

    Meaning of Tawheed according to The Qur'an
    Worshipping none but Allah. Affirming whatever is exclusive to Him, Him alone.

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    Re: Yemen Cholera epidemic is US and Saudi made

    I forgot one thing initially- natural law. It's a well developed system that underpins app modern secular law in the West and if you'd like any links on that let me know so I can send them your way.

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    Re: Yemen Cholera epidemic is US and Saudi made

    Am I comparing any attempt of wanting an Islamic state as someone like ISIS?

    Basically yes. That's a qualified yes, it's not like ISIS in every way of course. The core issue is Islamic supremacism, religious coercion through use of force, and religious compulsion. Religion must be optional, and all religions must be treated equally regardless of the demographics of a population. So if a mostly Muslim country votes to make Islamic law mandatory for everyone to follow and a proper police force will punish non Muslims who try to exercise individual religious liberties, that has the same issues, at its core, as the ragtag terror group that blows stuff up in order to attain basically the same outcome. Deny individual religious liberties to non Muslims, impose compulsory Islamic law through force, then make excuses for it and call it by names that make you feel better about it.

    Think about it this way. You're familiar with white supremacists, right? Well, suppose you have super violent and scary white supremacists in one situation. Through intimidation and force, they make it clear that non white people are not welcome in a certain place because it "belongs" to white people in exactly the same way that Mecca "belongs" to Muslims. They ensure that non white people have less rights and ultimately go away, due to violence or by leaving due to threat of violence....in much the same way that Pakistan wound up becoming so exclusively Islamic.

    Now suppose there's a different group of white supremacists. They wear nice suits and attend political functions. They don't get violent and intimidate. They do innocuous things with Pepe memes, and they also talk about how they'd like to mainstream ideas pertaining to the white ownership of a particular continent and they just want to make sure white people, in slightly more vague terms, have more rights and privileges than non white people. They'll be a bit less blunt and they'll come up with terminology that sounds more innocuous....they might also project more realistic and manageable goals for themselves....but they're basically trying to do the same thing.

    When the core idea is evil, when the core idea on All relevant examples here is basic supremacism, I'm going to tell you that and I won't give you bonus points for being a pragmatic and relatively non-violent supremacist. Supremacism is evil, and it's absolutely not okay.

    Do I find it problematic that the flag of tawheed is associated with terrorism? No. I find it problematic that people die and embassies get burned over cartoons and caricatures.
    End of moral assessment.

    On the flag association thing, it's bad for you, it's bad for business, it's bad for Islam. And Islam deserves this. You have bad PR? No, really, do go on. Muslims did this to Islam, Islam did this to itself.

    You think that ISIS is an excuse to undermine any Islamic state. I understand where you're coming from, and I believe we can reach an agreement on how that by itself is bad reasoning and it may not have been the best move for me to lead with that. Or did I lead with that?

    On the other hand....thinking back and looking back, I didn't specifically mention ISIS. I generally mentioned various terror groups set on establishing caliphates (there are three of them, I didn't name them and barely mentioned them in general) and what little I said about them was meant to imply that practical difficulties would necessitate some procedural similarities- crucially, without the intent of being like ISIS. The main point there was to say this is not easy or even particularly feasible in any way that's going to be humane and just, not to say that so and so is literally ISIS. It's an untenable situation in which the preferred outcome, as stated, leads to a lot of blood and disappointment and not the outcome you're looking for. That was supposed to be the implied point in a larger sense. The only specific mentions that I made were of the First Fitnah (quite bloody and a bit of a false start to the whole thing) and of the Ottoman Empire. Which, in fairness, you have to admit was an empire. An actual literal empire. I think it's fair to ask if the goal of this specific person is to establish an empire, and again, in fairness, Empire and ISIS are not associated very closely or at all. My main question linked up with an actual, proper caliphate, specifically the most recent one, and I think it's a good question deserving of a proper answer.

    Back to the main point, though. I do think it's lazy and a bit unfair to make a full and formal equivalence between any such attempt and Daesh. At the same time, I also think that any attempt to impose mandatory, compulsory religion is evil and there are better arguments against it than pointing to Daesh. This is specifically because the worst aspects of Daesh don't really get to the core issue of religion and the state and the public sphere. You can get there, but there's a lot of distractions. I prefer to make comparisons between different types of white supremacists and then challenge you to start seeing the supremacism in Islam, which is found in A Lot more places than just the terror groups with giant military budgets. It's just like how white supremacists aren't all skinheads or hood wearing scary people. There's a core ideology that can be readily defined without bringing up names of specific groups in order to get at the real problem, which is supremacism, meaning that a certain place or region specifically belongs to white people (or to Muslims) and no one else, the other people that somehow happen to be there can suck it, and just have to live with the decisions of the dominant group, that non white people (or non Muslims) get to have less rights and liberties and less of a life, and that's somehow okay under the right circumstances. I mean we're not blowing people up so it's all good right?

    No, it's not all good. Supremacism is evil, it must go away and stay gone. That's the point that I'll keep coming back to.

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    Re: Yemen Cholera epidemic is US and Saudi made

    Read this, this might cast some of your wrong assumptions about Islamic state>

    http://islamqa.org/hanafi/askimam/28...s-of-the-state

    Majority don't rule, and only A Muslim can become a Khalifah, not by majority rule.

    you may think that Islam treats kafirs as "second class" citizens or that they will be forced to convert (which is haram to do / force). They may practice their religion, but not preach it to us Muslims, cuz we believe their's is false.

    You are making a big mistake on comparing ISIS to the great Khilafahs of the 3 best generations.

    Compulsion in deen / religion is haram. I dont get this whole "supremacism". Islam is perfect, muslims are not.

    Kafirs are not treated as second class, they are treated the same, in respect to having the same rights, freedoms and protection as Muslims have in an Islamic state.

    What exactly, with bullet points, do you find an "issue" with Islam?

    Idk about the whole Mecca for Muslims only, but I find it unfair for you to compare it to white supremacy, because:

    KAFIRS can enter Mecca, afaik, but they can not perform Umrah or Pilgrimage / Hajj.. I guess you got your priorities mixed up.

    Link: http://islamqa.org/hanafi/askimam/17...cca-and-madina

    The fact that you must not preach the religion to Muslims does not mean there can not be debates.

    THe kafirs can handle their own religious affairs, as was the case with Jews judging by their Torah (afaik)

    Any Muslim can correct me if I wrote anything wrong.
    Last edited by Serinity; 1 Week Ago at 10:00 AM.
    Yemen Cholera epidemic is US and Saudi made

    Meaning of Shirk according to The Qur'an
    " Worshipping anyone or anything besides Allah " or " distributing anything exclusive to Allah, to anyone or anything else "

    Meaning of Tawheed according to The Qur'an
    Worshipping none but Allah. Affirming whatever is exclusive to Him, Him alone.

  16. #13
    PRND's Avatar
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    Re: Yemen Cholera epidemic is US and Saudi made

    "They may practice their religion, but not preach it to us"
    Unacceptable. This cannot stand. I have as much a right to this as you do. Don't you dare try to take that away from me. I will not tolerate this under any circumstances. I'm well aware of how attached you are to this, and I say NO.

    Tell you what. You say I can't do this, in a public space, in what is supposed to be an otherwise free society....

    Or what.

    Or what?

    I won't follow that law. It's unjust. It denies me individual religious liberties that I have a right to, and I defy you to try and take that away. I defy you and your little rule, and if you come after anyone that Does leave Islam, I'll come after you.

    So. Or what?

    Just a little bit of a heads up- when you have laws, Any laws that pertain to religion and especially those that take away my religious liberties, Enforcing those laws Is Compulsion. Enforcing them, and forcing people to fall in line, is what makes it compulsory. Religious law is the most basic form of compulsion. It makes absolutely no sense to say "I'm clean of religious compulsion, now let's just enforce some religious laws." That. Is. Compulsion. That's it right there. And it's religious compulsion, because these are specifically religious laws we're talking about.

    Religion should not be compulsory. At all. It needs to be strictly optional. If you can't see your way to that conclusion, perhaps you're a moderate supremacist.

    "Kafirs can enter Mecca, afaik"
    No they sure can't.

    https://www.quora.com/Can-a-non-Muslim-visit-Mecca
    https://www.quora.com/How-is-a-perso...entering-Mecca

    How did you not know this? Are you also unaware of the places with strict bans on Jews and of the places where public expression of Zionist ideas is a capital offense? Are you unaware of the fact that an Israeli stamp on a passport in Saudi Arabia is grounds for immediate deportation?

    But wait, just wait for it, now that you know the city of Mecca is strictly off limits to non Muslims- it's fine. You're going to find a way for that to be fine.

    It's not fine! It's not okay! This is wrong! Please begin to understand this. Start making some concessions, at least to yourself.

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    PRND's Avatar
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    Re: Yemen Cholera epidemic is US and Saudi made

    Kafirs are not treated as second class, they are treated the same, in respect to having the same rights, freedoms and protection as Muslims have in an Islamic state.

    What exactly, with bullet points, do you find an "issue" with Islam?
    I don't have an issue with Islam per se, I have a major issue with supremacism. So I can really break it down to just one bullet point.

    Religious supremacism is, and always has been, way too common in Islam and that absolutely has to change. The issue must be acknowledged, the need for change needs to be addressed, and I needs to happen.

    As for your assertion that Islamic stated have treated everyone the same, I'll prove that's absurd by issuing you a challenge. As you well know, the West has been historically mostly Christian, and it wasn't always this way, but over the past century or so atheists have enjoyed the same rights and freedoms, and the same access to public speech and fame, as anyone else has. That's why we can easily name and cite the work of people like Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens (may he rest in peace, and Dan Dennett. They are publicly atheist, they have made plenty of money by publishing specifically atheist material, and they have really made a point of attacking religious ideas from a variety of different angles.

    So here's the challenge. Name two atheists who lived within any Islamic caliphate, make sure they've accomplished enough that they deserve a Wikipedia page, and point me in the direction of anything that They Actually Wrote which has survived in some form to the present day without being destroyed.

    Two atheists. Any Islamic caliphate. And anything that those people actually wrote. If all their work has been destroyed and all we have on hand is what their opponents wrote about them (while making excuses and justifications on their own behalf), that's not what I'm looking for. Can you find two people who match this description from a thousand plus years of non Muslims supposedly being treated, how did you put it, treated the same, having the same rights freedoms and protections. Okay then, show me two atheists that were openly disbelieving within an Islamic caliphate and show me the work that They did.

    Why two? Why not. I just gave you four examples from the West, and that was easy. I also acknowledged that the West was not nearly so accommodating to atheists until fairly recently- we really were not, notice what I did there, I made a concession and acknowledged faults of the past- and That's how you do it. At some point, that's what you need to do.

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    OmAbdullah's Avatar
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    Re: Yemen Cholera epidemic is US and Saudi made

    Quote Originally Posted by Serinity View Post
    Read this, this might cast some of your wrong assumptions about Islamic state>

    http://islamqa.org/hanafi/askimam/28...s-of-the-state

    Majority don't rule, and only A Muslim can become a Khalifah, not by majority rule.

    you may think that Islam treats kafirs as "second class" citizens or that they will be forced to convert (which is haram to do / force). They may practice their religion, but not preach it to us Muslims, cuz we believe their's is false.

    You are making a big mistake on comparing ISIS to the great Khilafahs of the 3 best generations.

    Compulsion in deen / religion is haram. I dont get this whole "supremacism". Islam is perfect, muslims are not.

    Kafirs are not treated as second class, they are treated the same, in respect to having the same rights, freedoms and protection as Muslims have in an Islamic state.

    What exactly, with bullet points, do you find an "issue" with Islam?

    Idk about the whole Mecca for Muslims only, but I find it unfair for you to compare it to white supremacy, because:

    KAFIRS can enter Mecca, afaik, but they can not perform Umrah or Pilgrimage / Hajj.. I guess you got your priorities mixed up.

    Link: http://islamqa.org/hanafi/askimam/17...cca-and-madina

    The fact that you must not preach the religion to Muslims does not mean there can not be debates.

    THe kafirs can handle their own religious affairs, as was the case with Jews judging by their Torah (afaik)

    Any Muslim can correct me if I wrote anything wrong.

    Kaafirs cannot enter Makkah because it is the Command of Allah All-Mighty in surah Al-Tawbah (At-Tawbah) verse 28 (its translation is):


    O you who have believed, indeed the polytheists are unclean, so let them not approach al-Masjid al-Haram after this, their [final] year. And if you fear privation, Allah will enrich you from His bounty if He wills. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Wise.



    Allah All-Mighty has given this Command because Allah is the Sovereign of all including all kaafirs and Muslims. And because Allah knows and we know not. Allah knows that kaafirs are the sharrun-barriyah ( The worst of the creatures). (See verse 6 of the surah al-Bayyinah).


    Today i.e. in the present era, who has the upper hand in power??? Surely all power belongs to Allah but in this world of test, Allah rotates the power in the hands of the kaafirs and Muslims for the purpose of testing all and providing proof in favor of or against every kind of people. So I ask question from the kaafir attacker therefore I am turning to his posts.

    Yemen Cholera epidemic is US and Saudi made

    For the translation and short explanation of the surahs / verses of the Holy Quraan go to


    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAb...TcknAmy9Y5Bv1A

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    Re: Yemen Cholera epidemic is US and Saudi made

    Quote Originally Posted by PRND View Post
    Unacceptable. This cannot stand. I have as much a right to this as you do. Don't you dare try to take that away from me. I will not tolerate this under any circumstances. I'm well aware of how attached you are to this, and I say NO.

    Tell you what. You say I can't do this, in a public space, in what is supposed to be an otherwise free society....

    Or what.

    Or what?

    I won't follow that law. It's unjust. It denies me individual religious liberties that I have a right to, and I defy you to try and take that away. I defy you and your little rule, and if you come after anyone that Does leave Islam, I'll come after you.

    So. Or what?

    Just a little bit of a heads up- when you have laws, Any laws that pertain to religion and especially those that take away my religious liberties, Enforcing those laws Is Compulsion. Enforcing them, and forcing people to fall in line, is what makes it compulsory. Religious law is the most basic form of compulsion. It makes absolutely no sense to say "I'm clean of religious compulsion, now let's just enforce some religious laws." That. Is. Compulsion. That's it right there. And it's religious compulsion, because these are specifically religious laws we're talking about.

    Religion should not be compulsory. At all. It needs to be strictly optional. If you can't see your way to that conclusion, perhaps you're a moderate supremacist.



    No they sure can't.

    https://www.quora.com/Can-a-non-Muslim-visit-Mecca
    https://www.quora.com/How-is-a-perso...entering-Mecca

    How did you not know this? Are you also unaware of the places with strict bans on Jews and of the places where public expression of Zionist ideas is a capital offense? Are you unaware of the fact that an Israeli stamp on a passport in Saudi Arabia is grounds for immediate deportation?

    But wait, just wait for it, now that you know the city of Mecca is strictly off limits to non Muslims- it's fine. You're going to find a way for that to be fine.

    It's not fine! It's not okay! This is wrong! Please begin to understand this. Start making some concessions, at least to yourself.


    Kaafirs cannot enter Makkah because it is the Command of Allah All-Mighty in surah Al-Tawbah (At-Tawbah) verse 28 (its translation is):


    O you who have believed, indeed the polytheists are unclean, so let them not approach al-Masjid al-Haram after this, their [final] year. And if you fear privation, Allah will enrich you from His bounty if He wills. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Wise.



    Allah All-Mighty has given this Command because Allah is the Sovereign of all including all kaafirs and Muslims. And because Allah knows and we know not. Allah knows that kaafirs are the sharrun-barriyah ( The worst of the creatures). (See verse 6 of the surah al-Bayyinah).


    Today i.e. in the present era, who has the upper hand in power??? Surely all power belongs to Allah but in this world of test, Allah rotates the power in the hands of the kaafirs and Muslims for the purpose of testing all and providing proof in favor of or against every kind of people. So I ask question from you, the kaafir attacker,

    Who has the upper hand in power at the present time???? Is it a Muslim Khilaafah who is the super power or is it the kaafirs who are enjoying power???


    Your answer shall be: "The kaafirs of course" if you hear the voice of your conscience.


    Then who has filled up the whole earth from blood shed and killing of the innocent children, women and men???

    The answer is "the powerful kaafirs of course"!

    But you have no shame to see the truth and then to blame the Muslims and Islam. Don't go far away to the poise caliphs of the past. Just go to the wars of crusaders. Those killers Christians had filled up the land of Al-Quds with the blood of the innocent Muslims. Then, when Allah gave power to Salahud-Deen Ayoobi, he conquered Al-Quds and his behavior with the Christians was so nice that many Christian soldiers became impressed by Islam and they embraced it with their will. Next time the same convert Muslims were standing to fight the crusaders, and the crusaders were struck with wonder to see that wonderful change. Salahud-Deen was a practicing Muslim ruler and he and his Muslim nation had dealt with the Christians in Al-Quds in wonderful merciful way. This is because Islam is a true Religion of Allah and Allah doesn't like killing and blood-shed. So now it is the powerful kaafirs who have filled up the land with killing and blood-shed.



    The original Caliphs were even more just and safe. I can write the story of a court-case of a Christian Dhimmi living under the rule of caliph Ali radiya-Allaho anhu when the case was between the caliph (the Ruler Ali) and the Christian civilian. in the end, by the peaceful and pure justice of Islam, the Christian became so much impressed that he, right there, read the kalimah Shahaadah and became Muslim.



    But your attacks are due to blind jealousy. Now think: If a kaafir like you is allowed to enter Makkah, what will be your attitude? Can you be trusted in the Holy places of Makkah? No! Never! Alhamdulillah, that the All-Knowing, All-Powerful Allah prohibited your entry to Makkah!
    Yemen Cholera epidemic is US and Saudi made

    For the translation and short explanation of the surahs / verses of the Holy Quraan go to


    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAb...TcknAmy9Y5Bv1A

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    Re: Yemen Cholera epidemic is US and Saudi made

    @PRND
    You are judging Islamic rules by your own personal/cultural values which are not innate, i.e. of the 'Fitrah' Allah created us into. Disbelievers can't enter the Holy Lands. This is Allah's rule and His messenger's command. You don't have any basis to question this. As for atheists (and other religious groups) living in an Islamic state, it's evident from our point of view why propagating their religion is forbidden for them. That would be equal to propagating falsehood. Especially when it comes to atheists - how can we allow someone to publicly call people to the denial of God, who created him-? We are fending off doubts and securing people from possible deceptions. Islamic law grants a broad range of freedom in discussing secondary topics, but spreading doubts in the minds of common people on core matters, where there is nothing to discuss about, is of course not acceptable.

    Secular regimes are not bothered by religion, because religion does not have a high value in their eyes. But in Islam, the safety of religion is more important than the safety of life, wealth or anything else. Just as secular regimes prohibit murder and set penalties to its perpetrators, we prohibit "killing" one's (true) belief - one's entrance ID to paradise and eternal happiness.
    Last edited by Yahya.; 1 Week Ago at 04:51 PM.
    2 | Likes Serinity, OmAbdullah liked this post
    Yemen Cholera epidemic is US and Saudi made

    And [there is a share for] those who came after them, saying, "Our Lord, forgive us and our brothers who preceded us in faith and put not in our hearts [any] resentment toward those who have believed. Our Lord, indeed You are Kind and Merciful." (Surat al-Hashr, 10)

  22. #18
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    Re: Yemen Cholera epidemic is US and Saudi made

    @PRND Yes Islam is not a democratic religion in the sense of modern democrasy and yes Islam is an imperialist religion too in the same sense but Muslims,at least Islam, do not accept the modern democrasy as an unquestionable universal truth at first. So your saying what Islam teaches is unaceptale has no value in the Islamic sense. But you also have mistakes such as the Islamic state being awful to religious minorities. True Islamic state knows the rights of non Muslims and they are judged according to their laws
    Last edited by anatolian; 1 Week Ago at 05:25 PM.
    1 | Likes Serinity liked this post
    Yemen Cholera epidemic is US and Saudi made

    You harvest what you sow.

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    Re: Yemen Cholera epidemic is US and Saudi made

    "So here's the challenge. Name two atheists who lived within any Islamic caliphate, make sure they've accomplished enough that they deserve a Wikipedia page, and point me in the direction of anything that They Actually Wrote which has survived in some form to the present day without being destroyed."

    Im just making a comment here its not from any sort of background but the idea of false prophets during the time of prophet muhammed pbuh.. probably has some literature attached.

    Although you can google it yourself.

    ..although im not sure of the role of athiesm during the time..

    The main opposition was probably paganism and idolatry.

    Make of that what you will.

    The fact that the taliban had to blow up giant buddah statues in Afghanistan recently shows the changing acceptance of minorities through the ages.

    ...they probably didnt have to.. but i guess they dont like tourists or something.

    "As for your assertion that Islamic stated have treated everyone the same, I'll prove that's absurd by issuing you a challenge. As you well know, the West has been historically mostly Christian, and it wasn't always this way, but over the past century or so atheists have enjoyed the same rights and freedoms, and the same access to public speech and fame, as anyone else has. That's why we can easily name and cite the work of people like Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens (may he rest in peace, and Dan Dennett. They are publicly atheist, they have made plenty of money by publishing specifically atheist material, and they have really made a point of attacking religious ideas from a variety of different angles."

    ..thats probably funny

    ...was that meant to be funny?

    Because they are athiests..

    They dont believe in an afterlife.. they probably dont believe in the concept of a soul.

    "/

    ..i don't know what to think about that.

    Two of the 3 have a scientific background..

    Dawkins and harris..

    Science has become synonymous with athiesm.. Although i do not feel it has to be.

    Ironically, dawkins could not reconsile religion and science..

    Which is genuinely strange.. but he believes in what he believes.

    Harris is altogether less convincing and his knowledge of islam is not nearly as thorough as one would like..

    His views on israel are the real kicker for any self proclaimed athiest..If you can understand what he is saying.

    The analogy is one of micheal jordan..

    You can point to him and say, look he represents the black man in the west..

    But we all know it aint true.

    ..you could also point at anjum chaudrey and say look he represents the muslims in the west..

    But we would already have changed the channel by then.

    I find your views on the "free west" absurd.. especially as todays minorities "allegedly" face greater discrimination.. muslims included.

    Implementing an islamic state is a pipedream we do not have the infastructure for..

    The thread is about political civil war and its consequences.

    Religion is by far harder to represent than athiesm..

    Simply because the people are more open to being extremely opinionated..

    And less open to being accommodating of any change.. in views/belief.

    The will of god be done either way.

    ( Should have been a pharmacist :[ )

    ..they should all buy water filters.

    https://www.fic.nih.gov/News/GlobalH...er-filter.aspx

    Bit of science and that could be very cheap.

    EDIT:

    Im still kind of upset how OP thinks athiests have enjoyed western freedoms over the last 100 years.. in christian majority countries no less..

    Here have a literacy test.

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_vault...louisiana.html

    ..if you have a problem with supremicism, you probably have a lot of work to do..

    Until your beliefs make you bias.
    Last edited by M.I.A.; 1 Week Ago at 03:38 PM.
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    Re: Yemen Cholera epidemic is US and Saudi made

    Quote Originally Posted by M.I.A. View Post
    thats probably funny

    ...was that meant to be funny?
    Only slightly. Mostly, it was meant to be nice. He's missed by his people, and it's a nod to those who are sad he's gone.

    The analogy is one of micheal jordan..

    You can point to him and say, look he represents the black man in the west..

    But we all know it aint true.
    I do believe that's not at all relevant. The question is, can you name two. Two atheists, meeting certain criteria, from among your peaceful and tolerant people. So far the answer is no, zero, nothing. This may be a fail for you.

    Im still kind of upset how OP thinks athiests have
    No need to be upset. It's very simple. Answer the challenge or stop communicating with me. I'm giving you options here.

    Here have a literacy test.
    Here, have a detailed comparison to Soviet-era demagoguery and whataboutery.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_...nching_Negroes

    Before I continue. No more red herring. No more distractions. Answer the challenge. Name two, or stop communicating with me. Don't get lost. Name two atheists that meet the criteria. Just two, you have over a thousand years of history to draw on.

    Do I have to tell you again, or is this sufficiently clear?

    On to the detailed rebuttal. What I referenced is a common Soviet diversion tactic that was commonly employed whenever the human rights abuses of the Soviet Union were being pointed out. And we all remember what happened to the Soviet Union, Don't We Now.

    This has been referred to as a common example of the tu quoque fallacy, as a red herring, a prime example of whataboutism, and a bitter Soviet era punch line. If you need further detail on what those first items are, I invite You to look them up.

    It's old, it's tired, it's obvious and it's played out. Now answer the challenge or give up and walk away. If you need me to restate the terms, I can do that, but it is written right up there in perfect detail if you just scroll up to it.

    What's the deal? Can you answer the challenge, or did you fail, get frustrated, and continue to fail? Name two atheists that meet the aforementioned criteria. Do it. Give it a try.

    Come back with two names or don't come back at all.

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