Can you now understand how Turks bring up the whole PKK debate as..."We hate PKK, but we don't hate Kurds". Now is my logical, rational and reasonable question..what HAS Barzani (PDK) to do with PKK? They hate one another as in the past they even have fought against each other. However when i hear such things from such Turks, this is rather a wake up call to me that it has NOTHING to do with PKK, but they HATE Kurds. Which automatically includes me as i am a Kurd. The Turks fight for the Turkmen in Kirkuk, however when Kurds say what about Kurds in modern day south-east Turkey to Turks..then suddenly Kurds must keep their mouth shut. Isn't this hypocrisy? Isn't this a clear sign that these people have absolutely NOTHING to do with Islam and killing such people that show such level of hypocrisy is rather permissible according Islamic view. That is why even if a Kurd fighting along side PKK dies at the hands of the Turkish soldier, to me he is rather a martyr.
I do not look at ooh that one is a "Muslim" and that one is a "non-Muslim". I see two groups. One is fighting oppression according to Islamic perspective and the other is oppressing. No need to bring out the whole ..ooh but he is a Muslim and that other guy isn't. If somebody is a Muslim, he MUST abide by Islamic rulings, there is no excuse to oppress a certain people..be it Muslim or non-Muslim.
Many people THINK that just because they say i am a Muslim, that they automatically will end up in paradise. While there are for example clear hadith that say if one has pride or arrogance the size of a mustard seed he will not enter paradise. If one even thinks about this of having arrogance/pride the size of a mustard seed ...well iblies also believes in Allah, but has arrogance and pride. We all know he will end up in hell fire and will not enter paradise whatsoever.
EDIT: ..yeah..what happened to ..ooh we hate PKK? You see these guys they say we are Muslims, but their actions show something else. Another confirmation they hate Kurds and PKK is just the excuse.
I have told you several times before what your problem is. You are generalizing people. There is a general "Turks" image in your eyes and you refer to it as "they/them" and unfortunately what you have is an illusionary image. Turk is the name of a race and nation and in wider extend it refers to all Turkic people from Uyghuristan to Turkey but not only Turkish people of Turkey and "we" differ a lot in ideology, philosophy and in several other aspects of life. As for Turkish people of Turkey that makes approximately %75 of Turkey's total population, there are people who are more nationalist, more racist, more Islamist, more communist, more Kemalist, more westernist, more humanist, more universalist etc. people compared to some others. This is a diverse people. So, I simply suggest you to wipe out that "Turks" image from your mind.
I want to give a short history lecture before coming to the current problem. Turks and Kurds have always been allies in Anatolia since Turks started to migrate to the region after the battle of Manzikert. Even Kurds took the side of Turks (Seljuks) against the Byzantines in this battle. And Turks have always given the reward of this favour. Since both were Muslims. Of course some revolts occured against the rulers but this cannot be explained with nationalist motives since several Turks revolted against the Ottoman Empire through out history as well. However, the first nationallist and also Islamist motivational Kurdish rebelion against Turks occured just after the Turkish independace war in 1922. The British supported Kurdish Sheikh Said revolted against the new State to create another Kurdish Islamic state in South Eastern Anatolia. That was obviously plotted by the British. Brits have long been aware of the stateless Kurds and wanted to use them to create a satelite state in the mid of mid-east to control this oil-rich region. The revolt was harshly supressed.
After that, I agree some racist governments culturally and some times physically oppressed Kurds. Most especially the military government after the 1980 coup oppressed Kurds a lot. But again we must see the grater map. PKK was found in 1977, before the coup. You must also knwo that Abdullah Öcalan was the leader of "ülkücüler/idealists" an extreme Turkish nationalist movement in the university years in early 70s. Öcalan's mother was Turk as he says. He disappears for a while and turns back with "PKK!". Also you must know that the 1980 coup was plotted by CIA. After the withdrawal of the British empire from the mid-east America had taken the same "mission". At first it seems contradictory for America to create a communist group like PKK but if you are a good "chess master" sometimes you must give a small pawn for the ultimate victory. All those so called Kurdish rebels, in fact terrorists ,of mid-east ,PKK, PJAK, YPG, Peshmerga etc., were created and/or are supported by America for the same target. Controlling the middle east from it's centre.
PKK may have fought with Peshmerga because of a power conflict. They have been usually allies. Both Barzani and Talabani confesses that they had given support to PKK several times in some records. PKK are one of the worst and most cruel terrorist groups of all times. They did not target only the Turkish military but also civilian people including Turks and Kurds. They killed teachers considering them the representatives of "Turkish faicism". They killed Kurds and even their children in front of them who opposed PKK. They are suicide bombing in the middle of crowds in the cities. I am sure you are well aware of these atrocities of PKK and still say what they do can be Islamically justified. Either I don't know anything about Islam or you don't. There is not a third option. We will go on to slay these terrorists. If you consider them martyr thats your problem. And I can assure you at least half of Turkish Kurds oppose PKK and all seperatism. We can uderstand this even from the vote ratio of HDP. They had around %10 in the last elections but the total ethnic Kurdish population in Turkey is estimated around %20-22 and we cant even say all Kurds voting HDP are pro-PKK.
I see only one option for the peace. Each side must recognize their faults. The racist Turks will give up racism and terrorist Kurds will give up terrorism. That's it.
The PKK have committed less crimes than the Turkish state.
Also regarding HDP, they won the majority vote in the Kurdish areas. I don't know of any group of people where the turnout is 100%. Furthermore, the HDP had 13% in the first general election of 2015, but 10% in the second one because of the escalating Turkish military campaign, which was undoubtedly orchestrated by the Turkish government to reduce the Kurdish turnout.
Now look at HDP, a peaceful party, but its founders and members rounded up by the Turkish state.
Turkey has no business ruling Kurds. We don't want Turkey to rule us. End of story. Why don't the Turkish people understand that simple reality?
When HDP had %13 at first there were Turkish votes in it from Kemalists and even nationalists just to reduce the AKP's vote ratio in the southeast. Even HDP ackowleged it as deposit votes. They took it back after seeing the wildness PKK once more time. I am not promoting AKP , they are chief devils who are responsible of the chaos after July 2015 but PKK are doing the same thing. They are oppressing Kurds to vote for HDP. HDPs Kurdish votes do not excede %11 and this only half of the estimated total Kurdish population of Turkey. How do you know that Kurds dont want Turkey? Have you ever made a survey?
The PKK have committed less crimes than the Turkish state.
This is completely unsustainable justification when it goes to the human rights violations. Crime against other people is a crime, just same if you have made one crime and brother anatolian two crimes. You both are on the same line when it goes to the question who is quilty for the human rights violations.
Note: I used you and br anatolian just as examples. I don´t claim that you two would have done any crimes.
How can I help you unless you clearly tell me with what I am being accused? You couldnt even tell me that simple thing yet. Is it nationalism? Since when nationalism is a crime? I am admiting the crimes Turkey has ever commited but am just not exegerating as PKK propoganda wants me to.
This "simple" thing is what is the biggest dividends. In the past i already have told you, lets say the M... arrives and he says the country X is our enemy as they oppose everything that i say and i have come and act in the name of Allah. You rather admit pursuing nationalism. You cannot be a nationalist and yet a Muslim. It is either a Muslim or a nationalist. That is one thing.
The other thing is, saying Turkey has done x, y, z while still supporting the state has has and still is supporting it. That is saying well i person X has killed somebody and i admit it is bad, but i am still a supporter of person X. In other words..this whole admitting is not admitting. Because nothing changes at all. So for me hearing it is rather you trying to "ease" my heart, but as i have a very critical view on things and ask questions upon questions until my brain is satisfied not my heart this whole argument of yours rather shows..well you are not sorry about anything.
format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
Yes Kurdish idendity and language was forbiden once and the ones supporting it were oppressed. But I believe such things are not just reason to create a bloody terrorist group.
Sub'han'Allah, look at this. This again not only for me, just let anybody else read who has even a ounce of honesty and justice in their heart and let them say if Allah has not made you blind for the truth. Now kids (for everyone who is reading), this is what nationalism does to you. BEWARE!!. I often thank Allah for making me from a people who is being oppressed instead of being the oppressor. When you are blind for the truth and justice it has rather to do with something that contains in your heart as Allah does not make His servants blind for truth and justice. So far looking at what it contains in once heart is all i can conclude with you anatolian is that you rather have something that does not has a place to be there...which is nationalism.
When dialogue does not achieve what it needs to achieve because the oppressors do not wish to find peaceful means, action needs to take place. This basic human nature. Even in Islam. Jihad being it. Fight oppression.
"Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors." Qur'an 2:193
Who are the oppressors? Well if you have a ounce of honesty oppression can be easily filled with all of things. This day and age oppression is still going on, yet Erdogan and his media is portraying things so good. For example, why do you think Turkey right now is so obsessed with having "free visas" to EU? Why? Every wondered that? If they would get free visas you yourself know that MANY Kurds will migrate to EU. Thus leaving their homeland and thus changing demographics. You think this is not part of oppression? Go think dude, because neither you nor me is tomorrow promised.
format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
The reason why I implied "marxist" is because they are supposedly supporter of worker rights but kill workers
To give you an example. You have those "village guards". Those are Kurds that get money from the Turkish state. In other words treason. In every religion and country there are certain things upon treason. You have workers that go and do something for the sake of money that is benefiting Turkish state. Again, since when is that not treason if we talk about Kurds. If they are Turks, it is rather a warning. DO NOT HELP those people. You have people in western modern day Turkey who work in tourism, since when does PKK go and kill somebody lets say a waiter =_=!?? Does a waiter benefit Turkish state..well only paying taxes maybe, but nothing more than that. But if you help Turkish state building a wall on the artificial borders well sorry but i do not shed 1 tear for you if you are killed. You are well aware that you include yourself in the war between PKK and Turkish state. You are well aware that helping Turkish state to achieve certain goal is benefiting the Turkish state and putting PKK in disadvantage.
There are Kurds who say they are against PKK. You know what i say, i have no problems with you..do as you fit. However when you help Turkish state instead, well i do not shed a tear for you if you are killed by PKK. If you are not for PKK, then also don't help the Turkish state. In other words you choose no sides. This is the definition of somebody who is really innocent if killed.
So from now on say Turkish "kafir" secular state and Turkish "Hypocrite"-Erdogan state when you say Marxist PKK. Then i have no problem with it. Or else say Turkish state and PKK no addition to either one of the two.
When HDP had %13 at first there were Turkish votes in it from Kemalists and even nationalists just to reduce the AKP's vote ratio in the southeast. Even HDP ackowleged it as deposit votes. They took it back after seeing the wildness PKK once more time. I am not promoting AKP , they are chief devils who are responsible of the chaos after July 2015 but PKK are doing the same thing. They are oppressing Kurds to vote for HDP. HDPs Kurdish votes do not excede %11 and this only half of the estimated total Kurdish population of Turkey. How do you know that Kurds dont want Turkey? Have you ever made a survey?
You are being dishonest when you claim that Kurds want Turkey. The same Turkey that banned their language, denied them their existence, to this day the official Turkish claim is that Kurds are nothing but Mountain Turks. It's always been the dream of the Kurds to be independent for more than a century. This is not even up for debate.
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format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb
This is completely unsustainable justification when it goes to the human rights violations. Crime against other people is a crime, just same if you have made one crime and brother anatolian two crimes. You both are on the same line when it goes to the question who is quilty for the human rights violations.
Note: I used you and br anatolian just as examples. I don´t claim that you two would have done any crimes.
You missed my point. He uses the PKK's crimes as a reason to discredit their cause completely, but yet he brushes off the Turkish state's crimes as just mistakes.
Tell me then why HDP the so called defender of the Kurdish rights have %10 of votes despite PKK's oppresion to vote for this party? Kurds make around %22 of total population. If you can answer it I will answer the rest of your post
You know why? Because of lack of education. A couple of months ago just before the Turkish presidential referendum, some Kurdish couple were asked what they were voting for. You know what they said? They said we are going to vote YES. Why? They said in such a long time nobody cared about the road of our village. When Erdogan came to power, he fixed the road to our village. This is BRIBERY!!. By keeping Kurds uneducated, the Kurds do not realize that somebody in power is not really caring for you, he is rather deceiving you.
If Kurdistan would come to existence, you really think such villages would be forgotten? This sadly uneducated Kurds do not realize or think about. As we human beings are hasty in everything. For me in the past just before i reverted back to Islam, i was such a nationalist. I had the Kurdish flag hung on the wall. When i became Muslim and pondered and educated myself on more things, i took off the Kurdish flag from my wall. Then off course is the question how come i still "bite" on this subject?
I see two groups, oppressors and the oppressed. I do not see Kurds and Turks. Look at the Arabs living in as-sham under the oppression of the Zionists. I don't see ooh they are Arabs and Jews =_=!. A Jew would abide by their scripture and not commit oppression. Arabs however that lives there many know what is oppression, yet still because they are Pro-Muslim brotherhood, they do not speak out against the oppression the Turkish state is doing right now as Erdogan is also pro-Muslim brotherhood. Many even joined Saddam Hussein against the Kurds. This is ANOTHER sign of that these Arabs are not really caring about oppression, rather about nationalism. Sadly there are many innocent Arabs that suffer because of nationalistic mindset of many Arabs there.
Allah is sure tester and He brings out what people try to hide deep in their heart. Many things to this day have been shown to everybody so nobody can confuse group X or group Y to be "Muslims" and following "Islamic traditions". All you see is nationalism, greed for money, greed for power and control.
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format_quote Originally Posted by Freedom
You missed my point. He uses the PKK's crimes as a reason to discredit their cause completely, but yet he brushes off the Turkish state's crimes as just mistakes.
Bro, i am not sure if you are a Kurd, but if you are..this is nothing new to us Kurds. Turks have always been doing it, he is even doing it right now if you can read between the lines.
However sister herb indeed is right. Within Islam if i stole something from the shop, that doesn't justify it because you also had stolen 2 things from the shop. We are both criminals and cannot be compared to one another. Both need to be punished or dealt with according to their crimes.
For now is what is gonna change so it never happens again. As you said it clearly in one of your posts, which i agree is a independent Kurdistan. I have also said before if countries would keep on existing how they are right now, i also want a independent Kurdistan. If they would stop existing to make place for a Islamic Caliphate, i then am for a Islamic Caliphate. ..REAL Islamic Caliphate not that fake ISIS aka CIA/MOSSAD/MIT nonsense. (btw, why MIT included?)..IF ISIS was really pro-Islam, they would also have so to say attacked Turkey..however they were friends =_=!.
You know why? Because of lack of education. A couple of months ago just before the Turkish presidential referendum, some Kurdish couple were asked what they were voting for. You know what they said? They said we are going to vote YES. Why? They said in such a long time nobody cared about the road of our village. When Erdogan came to power, he fixed the road to our village. This is BRIBERY!!. By keeping Kurds uneducated, the Kurds do not realize that somebody in power is not really caring for you, he is rather deceiving you.
If Kurdistan would come to existence, you really think such villages would be forgotten? This sadly uneducated Kurds do not realize or think about. As we human beings are hasty in everything. For me in the past just before i reverted back to Islam, i was such a nationalist. I had the Kurdish flag hung on the wall. When i became Muslim and pondered and educated myself on more things, i took off the Kurdish flag from my wall. Then off course is the question how come i still "bite" on this subject?
I see two groups, oppressors and the oppressed. I do not see Kurds and Turks. Look at the Arabs living in as-sham under the oppression of the Zionists. I don't see ooh they are Arabs and Jews =_=!. A Jew would abide by their scripture and not commit oppression. Arabs however that lives there many know what is oppression, yet still because they are Pro-Muslim brotherhood, they do not speak out against the oppression the Turkish state is doing right now as Erdogan is also pro-Muslim brotherhood. Many even joined Saddam Hussein against the Kurds. This is ANOTHER sign of that these Arabs are not really caring about oppression, rather about nationalism. Sadly there are many innocent Arabs that suffer because of nationalistic mindset of many Arabs there.
Allah is sure tester and He brings out what people try to hide deep in their heart. Many things to this day have been shown to everybody so nobody can confuse group X or group Y to be "Muslims" and following "Islamic traditions". All you see is nationalism, greed for money, greed for power and control.
I believe @anatolian genuinely wants good relations and peace between Kurds and Turks, but under the condition that Turks rule. In his mind, he thinks he is being fair, but really he is subscribing to the same ultranationalism of Ataturk that all of Anatolia must be ruled by the "superior Turks"
I believe @anatolian genuinely wants good relations and peace between Kurds and Turks, but under the condition that Turks rule. In his mind, he thinks he is being fair, but really he is subscribing to the same ultranationalism of Ataturk that all of Anatolia must be ruled by the "superior Turks"
Oke, let me give him a GOOD solution.
I do NOT want this country called Turkey to fall. Instead, i want the country to change it's name to Kurdistan, change it's flag to Kurdish flag and change primary language to Arabic. Kurdish and Turkish let them be secondary languages of it.
This is when you bring nationalism up if one has nationalism in their heart. If somebody really did not care about nationalism but really just did not wanted the country to fall, they would agree to this solution as even a good solution. So @anatolian, would you agree that this might be a good solution? As the country did not fall and thus a end has come to fighting.
I do NOT want this country called Turkey to fall. Instead, i want the country to change it's name to Kurdistan, change it's flag to Kurdish flag and change primary language to Arabic. Kurdish and Turkish let them be secondary languages of it.
This is when you bring nationalism up if one has nationalism in their heart. If somebody really did not care about nationalism but really just did not wanted the country to fall, they would agree to this solution as even a good solution. So @anatolian, would you agree that this might be a good solution? As the country did not fall and thus a end has come to fighting.
Lol, he is gonna acknowledge that Turkish identity is based on Turkishness. That by its nature excludes Kurds.
We Kurds are Iranian peoples from the mountains, not Turkics from the steppes.
Lol, he is gonna acknowledge that Turkish identity is based on Turkishness. That by its nature excludes Kurds.
We Kurds are Iranian peoples from the mountains, not Turkics from the steppes.
Nope, we Kurds are not Iranian people from the mountains. Kurds and old Persians were the same people, but not "Persians". The so called Persian history starts with Cyrus the Great, while nobody asks ..well if Cyrus the Great created Persia, what where they before? The current Iranians, are NOT the descendants of those Persians. The current Iranians are comparable with many people who call themselves Turks, while they for example have NO ties whatsoever with Turkics. They are rather from the Balkan areas as Mustafa Kemal wanted to make Kurds a minority he gave nationalities like candy. That is why Kurds have become a minority. Anatolian so far i have discussed with him is one of those people that his descendants is based on Balkan area. So not Turkic ties whatsoever. Real Turkic people have a bit looks like Mongolians and down that road appearance. While you see some say they are Turks, while you can clearly see based on their appearance they have Kurdish ancestry.
Islam even confirms this a bit. As isthe boat of Nuh(as) is based on Mount Judi near silopia and Cizre. ..which is you even could say the HEART of Kurdistan if one would combine all the parts.
Now looking at Cyrus the Great (his mother a Median princes) his rule was around 500 BC. However if we look at other foundlings for example things like historic Mesopotamia.
Language sub'han'Allah is such a great gift of Allah. Language is something that is SUPER hard to extinguish. In Kurdish and i believe many dialects of us Kurds supports this.. we have something called "ga" which is a bull. "Gamesh" is a African bull. I am not sure in other dialects but in Kurmanji i believe a African bull is still called "gamesh".
In the Qur'an Prophet Nuh(as) did a dua to place his boat on a blessed place. Well as a Kurd yourself, i do not have to tell you that Kurdish area is indeed very blessed. Fertile lands, A LOT of springs, mountains. We do not need anything as everything we can get from the land it self.
Now if we already can track back language to about 2000 BC..that rather shows indeed that Kurds were there already. So the old-Persians are rather also Kurds but split from them. I read couple of months ago that even Persian is not a people, but rather a job-title. Which could indeed confirm many things i have said before as they have "split" from the Kurds but are the same people. "Paristan" means guarding in Kurdish. "Paris" is a guard. Which ALSO confirms why Iranians of today have things like Newroz. If they indeed were a different people, then they would have other customs, but yet they have the same customs as the Kurds in general.
So it is not that Kurds are Iranian people, rather OLD-Persians are Kurdish people (Better to say Medes or whatever). But current Iranians are not. They also have come from all kind of surrounding parts like many modern day people who call themselves Turks from Turkey. As you can see that their appearance does not look like the Kurds whatsoever. They have more like hollow eye sockets and a bit like brownish circles around their eyes.
Last edited by Simple_Person; 08-31-2017 at 11:51 AM.
This "simple" thing is what is the biggest dividends. In the past i already have told you, lets say the M... arrives and he says the country X is our enemy as they oppose everything that i say and i have come and act in the name of Allah. You rather admit pursuing nationalism. You cannot be a nationalist and yet a Muslim. It is either a Muslim or a nationalist. That is one thing.
The other thing is, saying Turkey has done x, y, z while still supporting the state has has and still is supporting it. That is saying well i person X has killed somebody and i admit it is bad, but i am still a supporter of person X. In other words..this whole admitting is not admitting. Because nothing changes at all. So for me hearing it is rather you trying to "ease" my heart, but as i have a very critical view on things and ask questions upon questions until my brain is satisfied not my heart this whole argument of yours rather shows..well you are not sorry about anything.
Sub'han'Allah, look at this. This again not only for me, just let anybody else read who has even a ounce of honesty and justice in their heart and let them say if Allah has not made you blind for the truth. Now kids (for everyone who is reading), this is what nationalism does to you. BEWARE!!. I often thank Allah for making me from a people who is being oppressed instead of being the oppressor. When you are blind for the truth and justice it has rather to do with something that contains in your heart as Allah does not make His servants blind for truth and justice. So far looking at what it contains in once heart is all i can conclude with you anatolian is that you rather have something that does not has a place to be there...which is nationalism.
When dialogue does not achieve what it needs to achieve because the oppressors do not wish to find peaceful means, action needs to take place. This basic human nature. Even in Islam. Jihad being it. Fight oppression.
"Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors." Qur'an 2:193
Who are the oppressors? Well if you have a ounce of honesty oppression can be easily filled with all of things. This day and age oppression is still going on, yet Erdogan and his media is portraying things so good. For example, why do you think Turkey right now is so obsessed with having "free visas" to EU? Why? Every wondered that? If they would get free visas you yourself know that MANY Kurds will migrate to EU. Thus leaving their homeland and thus changing demographics. You think this is not part of oppression? Go think dude, because neither you nor me is tomorrow promised.
To give you an example. You have those "village guards". Those are Kurds that get money from the Turkish state. In other words treason. In every religion and country there are certain things upon treason. You have workers that go and do something for the sake of money that is benefiting Turkish state. Again, since when is that not treason if we talk about Kurds. If they are Turks, it is rather a warning. DO NOT HELP those people. You have people in western modern day Turkey who work in tourism, since when does PKK go and kill somebody lets say a waiter =_=!?? Does a waiter benefit Turkish state..well only paying taxes maybe, but nothing more than that. But if you help Turkish state building a wall on the artificial borders well sorry but i do not shed 1 tear for you if you are killed. You are well aware that you include yourself in the war between PKK and Turkish state. You are well aware that helping Turkish state to achieve certain goal is benefiting the Turkish state and putting PKK in disadvantage.
There are Kurds who say they are against PKK. You know what i say, i have no problems with you..do as you fit. However when you help Turkish state instead, well i do not shed a tear for you if you are killed by PKK. If you are not for PKK, then also don't help the Turkish state. In other words you choose no sides. This is the definition of somebody who is really innocent if killed.
So from now on say Turkish "kafir" secular state and Turkish "Hypocrite"-Erdogan state when you say Marxist PKK. Then i have no problem with it. Or else say Turkish state and PKK no addition to either one of the two.
You have been proven yourself what kind of a terrorist mindset you have with this post. You are justifying the murder of civillians. Bravo! They are not "helping" the Turkish state, they are helping the civilization, humanity. They are bringing the civilization to "your" Kurds. And you shamlessly blame Turkey with keeping Kurds uneducated. And of course we will go on to fight with this kind of mentality until the end. Thats enough for Eid.
You have been proven yourself what kind of a terrorist mindset you have with this post. You are justifying the murder of civillians. Bravo! They are not "helping" the Turkish state, they are helping the civilization, humanity. They are bringing the civilization to "your" Kurds. And you shamlessly blame Turkey with keeping Kurds uneducated. And of course we will go on to fight with this kind of mentality until the end. Thats enough for Eid.
Terrorist mindset =_=!. As i have said earlier in other posts, i love human psychology. The war that is being waged in present day is not through bullets anymore, it is the psychological war that is being waged (ie propaganda, destroying ones identity). The honest person is depicted as a liar and the liar is depicted as a honest person. People are being robbed from their dignity, principles, property, identity through psychological warfare. Many Kurds in Turkey are even ashamed of saying they are Kurds because saying you as a Kurd is automatically seen as backward and ret*rded. This bringing "civilization" is one of those means as i have said before. Erdogan giving them a candy to rob them further of what belongs to them.
Just a few days ago saw a documentary called "Poor us: An Animated History of Poverty". In that documentary i kept on 1 specific thing in my memory. One of the speakers said in poor countries about 1 billion dollars is exported to rich countries and about one 8th is given back in aid from the rich countries. So somebody is robbing you and telling you in the mean time ..look i give you developing aid. If that stuff that is already part of your land stays in your land, every land can develop their self. No need for western "aid". It is a BIG psychological warfare and people are completely blind to it while being robbed in clear daylight. This is exactly the same with Turkish government and Kurds. Kurdish lands besides tourism(mountains to ruins of the past to even religious places), they also have a lot of oil. Also the source of the rivers Tigris and Euphrates BOTH originate in Northern Kurdistan (modern day south-eastern Turkey). I believe the Turks have removed many old ruins to replace them with dams and such. Such ruins to UNESCO would be compared to gold, although i only see ruins as an aya to what happened to those people..(ie only some stones remained of their existence because Allah destroyed them), but just for the sake of seeing it. The place prophet Nuh(as) his boat according to archaeologists is set, would have been one of the largest tourist place to many religions.
And now you say the Turks are "developing" Kurdish area's =_=!. If i would not have known these things myself i would even have believed you and have questioned myself. The truth is clear from falsehood, you either hate the person who speaks the truth or love the person who speaks the truth. I know it is not a good feeling when one pushes you in your open wound.
Btw, in the past i wasn't aware about whole western Kurdistan (Rojava - modern day north eastern Syria) and why Turkey so fiercely objected against it. It is Turkey's WORST nightmare. When all the cantons including path is cleared all the way to Mediterranean sea, that many Arab tribes and villages would want to be part of it, it means no more exporting oil and gas whatever through Turkey. I mean if i would be the oppressor i would also be very scared for the one whom i have oppressed because when he would get something, i am sure he would let me pay for all the harm i have done to him. I mean for the sake of argument IF the Greater Kurdistan becomes reality and path is included all the way to Mediterranean sea, this means no more oil being exported through Turkey, but rather directed through oil pipe lines to Greece. That being said, Turkey has no more direct contact to Arab world nor Iran. The only financial gain Turkey can get is tourism and export of fruits and vegetables. Well just recently we have seen (Russia boycotting Turkey) how dangerous it is if that is their ONLY source of income. They are at mercy of countries they do business with..(export). So you can bring Turks to their knees without even firing one bullet at them. Just not have any financial ties with them and your currency indeed is one's lifeline. When your currency has died it is the end of that particular country. Well Orthodox Christians still have not forgotten about Constantinople and Hagia Sophia...keep on eating from NATO's plate or else it is your end if one doesn't.
We will see what is gonna happen, as Turkey with each day is becoming MORE and stronger allies with Qatar(Muslim Brotherhood) and Iran (ie. enemies to Saudi Arabia, Eqypt and many other Arab countries).
Last edited by Simple_Person; 09-02-2017 at 08:46 PM.
although I will admit, the PKK is also a terror group, and I don't support them one bit....but i suppose all oppression leads to radicalization and desperate measures......still, PKK are scum....
@Simple_Person
, you're right, Kurds have and continue to face great atrocities, but
@anatolian
you're right, PKK has also committed great atrocities.....im not denying that.....I hope the Turks and Kurds can live together in peace.......it is not right for fellow Muslims, especially with a shared history, to be divided on ethnic nationalist lines......that is the mentality of the kaafir...is nationalism on the basis of skin complexion, looks, or culture.....and besides, the answer is CIVIC nationalism, not ethnic nationalism.
although I will admit, the PKK is also a terror group, and I don't support them one bit....but i suppose all oppression leads to radicalization and desperate measures......still, PKK are scum.... @Simple_Person , you're right, Kurds have and continue to face great atrocities, but @anatolian you're right, PKK has also committed great atrocities.....im not denying that.....I hope the Turks and Kurds can live together in peace.......it is not right for fellow Muslims, especially with a shared history, to be divided on ethnic nationalist lines......that is the mentality of the kaafir...is nationalism on the basis of skin complexion, looks, or culture.....and besides, the answer is CIVIC nationalism, not ethnic nationalism.
What has happened has happened that for once and each group has to pay for their deeds, nobody is denying that. What now needs to be done is looking at the present and the future. We do not know the future, so what leaves is the present.
In Islam there is no kafir and Muslim or hypocrite or Muslim or polytheist and Muslim or people of the book and Muslim. In Islam there is SIMPLY the oppressor and the oppressed. Now in this war between PKK and Turkish government, we simply ask logical, rational and reasonable questions.
Question 1: What is the reason PKK fights the Turkish government? They(PKK) answers: Kurds are being oppressed.
Question 2: What is the reason Turkish government fights PKK? They(Turkish government) answers: PKK is a separatist organization.
What is the definition of separatist?
===========
someone who is a member of a particular race, religion, or other group within a country and who believes that this group should be independent and have their own government or in some way live apart from other people
Source used: http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dict...ish/separatist
===========
Question 3: Why does PKK want to separate the Kurds from Turkey? They (PKK) answers: The oppression has and still is being done.
Question 4: Is there any historical OBJECTIVE evidence that what PKK says is true? Objective evidence, yes as not only PKK says this, but objective evidence points also to this and even Turks admit to this.
Question 5: Is this oppression still going on?
- If yes, based on what objective evidence?
- If no, based on what objective evidence?
As a Kurd and not taking sides (subjectivity) rather looking at all the evidence (objectivity), i even see that it is not really only bounded to PKK. I mean PKK is one thing and Turkey says YPG is part of PKK. For the sake of the argument, lets agree that indeed YPG and PKK are one group. But then is my question what has Barazani (PDK) to have a independent referendum from Iraq to do with PKK? As even Turkey is against this referendum as they say it will bring instability, but they do not care for democratic rights?
Based on OBJECTIVE evidence, what has South Kurdistan (Modern day Northern Iraq) to do with PKK and YPG? I personally see absolutely NO connection rather the ONLY connection that i see is that they all are Kurds.
Question 6: What has Kurds to do with PKK, YPG, when they want to have a independent referendum?
I'm sorry but do i have to chew even more for the person reading this not only directing to you mustafa16. I mean how clear is this that for Turkey as long as Kurds remain separate, it is in their interest. So it has nothing to do with PKK or whatever organization. If it would have to do with PKK and YPG, then Turkey should have kept their mouth shut about the referendum in southern Kurdistan (modern day northern Iraq).
So Turkey is against independence referendum, but Erdogan was all to happy to want to have the presidential referendum. So the Turks have all the rights to choose what they want to do this or that, but others are not. Isn't this called hypocrisy?
I know @anatolian, the hate that you have makes you crazy when somebody shows the hypocrisy of the Turks. I can't help it. It is one of the characteristics of mine to not keep my mouth shut when i see hypocrisy and injustice.
So it all comes down that really based on the fight between PKK and Turkish Government, it is rather Turkish government who is being the oppressor. Now for you to brand PKK as a terrorist organization, i am sorry but i do not see them as a terrorist organization. A terrorist is one who puts fear in my heart. I am not afraid of PKK nor for Turkish government. So neither one of the two are to me a terrorist organization. All i am seeing is the oppressor and the oppressed. Take it or leave it. Truth is clear form falsehood. I know you do not like those words, you want to give your own definition to things. But things don't work like that, mr balkan i better should say..as you (i am still confused) are so pro-Turk, but have no Turkic ancestry. But whatever..what makes you happy.
The PKK have committed less crimes than the Turkish state.
Also regarding HDP, they won the majority vote in the Kurdish areas. I don't know of any group of people where the turnout is 100%. Furthermore, the HDP had 13% in the first general election of 2015, but 10% in the second one because of the escalating Turkish military campaign, which was undoubtedly orchestrated by the Turkish government to reduce the Kurdish turnout.
Now look at HDP, a peaceful party, but its founders and members rounded up by the Turkish state.
Turkey has no business ruling Kurds. We don't want Turkey to rule us. End of story. Why don't the Turkish people understand that simple reality?
Turkey is a Democratic Republic. If you think that your rights are violated you creat a political party and demand it by democratic means by representing yourself in the perliement. You cant terorize the country.
HDP was theorically great but they have had direct connections with PKK. They cannot separate themselves from terror. There was an Islamic Kurdish party called HUDAPAR but PKK terrorized them too regarding them an enemy of HDP.
You need to explain still why half of Kurds of Turkey dont vote for HDP.
- - - Updated - - -
format_quote Originally Posted by Mustafa16
although I will admit, the PKK is also a terror group, and I don't support them one bit....but i suppose all oppression leads to radicalization and desperate measures......still, PKK are scum....
@Simple_Person
, you're right, Kurds have and continue to face great atrocities, but
@anatolian
you're right, PKK has also committed great atrocities.....im not denying that.....I hope the Turks and Kurds can live together in peace.......it is not right for fellow Muslims, especially with a shared history, to be divided on ethnic nationalist lines......that is the mentality of the kaafir...is nationalism on the basis of skin complexion, looks, or culture.....and besides, the answer is CIVIC nationalism, not ethnic nationalism.
Turkish national identity is a civic one anyway according to the constitution. In the Turkish constitution "Turkish " is defined as all the people living in Turkey redardless of any ethnic or religious background. There are several other ethnic minorities in Turkey apart from Kurds and most of them are OK with being Turkish as identity.
Sub'han'Allah and THIS EXACTLY is what Turkey is afraid of and tries to brainwash and twist things. All but lies and HYPOCRISY. As hypocrites are even WORSE than kafirs. In other words PKK ((communists ->kafirs) as Turks say), but Turkish government hypocrites as hypocrites will end up in the lowest of all the place in hell.
Because IF Turkey is so sure about their "brotherhood" between Kurds living in Turkey and them and SO SURE of it that the Kurds do not want to split from Turkey, they (Turkey) would without a doubt have said lets have a referendum among all the Kurds living in Turkey. To show it without a doubt that Kurds and Turks are brothers and thus we can fights side by side against PKK and make it clear to PKK they are not wanted.
However they (Turkish government) KNOWS that if such a referendum would be held, WITHOUT a doubt majority would say i want to leave Turkey and be independent.
As such actions as these (news headline: Turkey halts Rudaw broadcast on Turksat satellites)
I mean barzani says he is a Muslim and is more or less pro-Erdogan compared to PKK. So what has Barzani to do with PKK? For the MOST dishonest Turks out there, Allah is showing things so clearly that Erdogan cannot hide behind words, because he is being cornered, thus speaks what is in his heart.. Be grateful to Allah that He is showing you what Erdogan is trying to hide behind the mask of Islam and trying to brainwash you (ignorant Turks in general) to divide the Muslims, for his own gains. If you still want to back Erdogan, know this is all being written in your book that will be used to testify against you.
Wake up while you are still alive.
Anyways, the more you look at things, the more Erdogan is creating unity among Kurds. As even pro-Turkish government Kurds (anti-PKK) by seeing such actions they see that Turkish government is against Kurds, and have been lying to them that they were only against PKK. Pro-HDP Kurds also have seen that Turkish government isn't about peaceful and political way of solving the Kurdish question, by prosecuting HDP members. Besides that there is a Kurdish Hezbollah party in Turkey that is pro-Erdogan and anti-PKK, they also because of such actions now see whats is going on rather Turkish government being anti-Kurd..and they themselves being Kurds. Will they follow the path of Islam? (fight injustice) or still hold on on a lie.
The Kurds in Syria they also have seen in the recent years Erdogan is clearly against them...so sub'han'Allah because of Turkish actions unity is being created among Kurds. That being said, two biggest hypocrite countries are being united (Iran + Turkey..all based on two things. Muslim brotherhood (Qatar) & their hate towards the Kurds.
However EVEN if Turkey would not take any actions against the Kurds in south-Kurdistan (modern day northern Iraq), still it would also be bad for them. They are doing whatever is in their power, but it is inevitable. Just matter of time. Also Turkey is heading towards cross-roads..will they choose left (US) or choose right (Russia). They must in the end choose one of the two as right now they (Turkish government) is still eating from NATO's plate as well as start eating from Russia's plate, which the other party would support PKK with weapons. So whatever army or weapons Turkey has, it looks like Turkey is doomed anyway. As they have been fighting PKK for such a long time and still cannot destroy them with everything they have, while PKK right now has ONLY only small-arms what if they would get more heavy arms??..what then? THE WINTER IS COMING!!
Sub'han'Allah and THIS EXACTLY is what Turkey is afraid of and tries to brainwash and twist things. All but lies and HYPOCRISY. As hypocrites are even WORSE than kafirs. In other words PKK ((communists ->kafirs) as Turks say), but Turkish government hypocrites as hypocrites will end up in the lowest of all the place in hell.
Because IF Turkey is so sure about their "brotherhood" between Kurds living in Turkey and them and SO SURE of it that the Kurds do not want to split from Turkey, they (Turkey) would without a doubt have said lets have a referendum among all the Kurds living in Turkey. To show it without a doubt that Kurds and Turks are brothers and thus we can fights side by side against PKK and make it clear to PKK they are not wanted.
However they (Turkish government) KNOWS that if such a referendum would be held, WITHOUT a doubt majority would say i want to leave Turkey and be independent.
As such actions as these (news headline: Turkey halts Rudaw broadcast on Turksat satellites)
That is problematic from a few angles. First, how do you know that? I myself think if such a referandum takes place, majority of the Turkish Kurds would not vote to leave. Do we have a meter for it?
Second, is this your own project? There is not a demand for such a referandum within the Kurds in Turkey. I haven't heard it even from HDP. You are the first person I hear it. And you are an Iraqi Kurd. Third, no country on the surface of earth would give from it's landmass with a referandum. Fourth, let's say OK we go for it. How are you going to decide officially who is Kurd who is not? Shall you accept everyone who says he is Kurd? Is the critaria being able to speak Kurdish? Are you going to held a genetic research on each elector? None of these will give you an 100% accurate result. Fifth, what is "your" map of Kurdistan? Because everyone's map changes. Which provinces of Turkey are you gonna include the borders? What about the people living in the provinces you consider "Kurdish" but dont want to leave? There are ethnic Turks and other ethnic minorities in some of those places.
These are all flaws of your genius offer.
format_quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person
and this for example..(news headline: Turkey's Erdogan threatens to shut off oil pipeline, to close border)
I mean barzani says he is a Muslim and is more or less pro-Erdogan compared to PKK. So what has Barzani to do with PKK? For the MOST dishonest Turks out there, Allah is showing things so clearly that Erdogan cannot hide behind words, because he is being cornered, thus speaks what is in his heart.. Be grateful to Allah that He is showing you what Erdogan is trying to hide behind the mask of Islam and trying to brainwash you (ignorant Turks in general) to divide the Muslims, for his own gains. If you still want to back Erdogan, know this is all being written in your book that will be used to testify against you.
Wake up while you are still alive.
Anyways, the more you look at things, the more Erdogan is creating unity among Kurds. As even pro-Turkish government Kurds (anti-PKK) by seeing such actions they see that Turkish government is against Kurds, and have been lying to them that they were only against PKK. Pro-HDP Kurds also have seen that Turkish government isn't about peaceful and political way of solving the Kurdish question, by prosecuting HDP members. Besides that there is a Kurdish Hezbollah party in Turkey that is pro-Erdogan and anti-PKK, they also because of such actions now see whats is going on rather Turkish government being anti-Kurd..and they themselves being Kurds. Will they follow the path of Islam? (fight injustice) or still hold on on a lie.
The Kurds in Syria they also have seen in the recent years Erdogan is clearly against them...so sub'han'Allah because of Turkish actions unity is being created among Kurds. That being said, two biggest hypocrite countries are being united (Iran + Turkey..all based on two things. Muslim brotherhood (Qatar) & their hate towards the Kurds.
What Barzani says is not my concern really. Barzani had the control of the northern Iraq for decades while PKK were freely entering and leaving the region. All main bases of PKK are in the northern Iraq. This cant be done without the aid of Barzani, Talabani and peshmerga. And all middle-east is bored of that, not only Turkey. Both Iran and Iraq are extremely opposing the so called free Kurdistan referandum. I have no idea why you are so obsessed with Turkey but all these four countries Kurds are living in are bored of Kurdish terror.
format_quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person
However EVEN if Turkey would not take any actions against the Kurds in south-Kurdistan (modern day northern Iraq), still it would also be bad for them. They are doing whatever is in their power, but it is inevitable. Just matter of time. Also Turkey is heading towards cross-roads..will they choose left (US) or choose right (Russia). They must in the end choose one of the two as right now they (Turkish government) is still eating from NATO's plate as well as start eating from Russia's plate, which the other party would support PKK with weapons. So whatever army or weapons Turkey has, it looks like Turkey is doomed anyway. As they have been fighting PKK for such a long time and still cannot destroy them with everything they have, while PKK right now has ONLY only small-arms what if they would get more heavy arms??..what then? THE WINTER IS COMING!!
As per the 1926 Ankara agreement between Turkey and Britain, Turkey has right to invade the northern Iraq and occupy Musul and Kirkuk if the territorial integrity of Iraq is violated. So, a so called free Kurdistan is enough reason for us to occupy it. Even the Turkmens are recieving continous attacks from the Kurdish terrorists in the region currently which makes it another just reason for us for the invasion. However, for the reasons you have mentioned above, we as Turkey must stay neutral and keep away from any war as possible.
Oh never mind, we Turks are resistent to winter..and there comes a spring after every winter.
That is problematic from a few angles. First, how do you know that? I myself think if such a referandum takes place, majority of the Turkish Kurds would not vote to leave. Do we have a meter for it?
Second, is this your own project? There is not a demand for such a referandum within the Kurds in Turkey. I haven't heard it even from HDP. You are the first person I hear it. And you are an Iraqi Kurd. Third, no country on the surface of earth would give from it's landmass with a referandum. Fourth, let's say OK we go for it. How are you going to decide officially who is Kurd who is not? Shall you accept everyone who says he is Kurd? Is the critaria being able to speak Kurdish? Are you going to held a genetic research on each elector? None of these will give you an 100% accurate result. Fifth, what is "your" map of Kurdistan? Because everyone's map changes. Which provinces of Turkey are you gonna include the borders? What about the people living in the provinces you consider "Kurdish" but dont want to leave? There are ethnic Turks and other ethnic minorities in some of those places.
These are all flaws of your genius offer.
What Barzani says is not my concern really. Barzani had the control of the northern Iraq for decades while PKK were freely entering and leaving the region. All main bases of PKK are in the northern Iraq. This cant be done without the aid of Barzani, Talabani and peshmerga. And all middle-east is bored of that, not only Turkey. Both Iran and Iraq are extremely opposing the so called free Kurdistan referandum. I have no idea why you are so obsessed with Turkey but all these four countries Kurds are living in are bored of Kurdish terror.
As per the 1926 Ankara agreement between Turkey and Britain, Turkey has right to invade the northern Iraq and occupy Musul and Kirkuk if the territorial integrity of Iraq is violated. So, a so called free Kurdistan is enough reason for us to occupy it. Even the Turkmens are recieving continous attacks from the Kurdish terrorists in the region currently which makes it another just reason for us for the invasion. However, for the reasons you have mentioned above, we as Turkey must stay neutral and keep away from any war as possible.
Oh never mind, we Turks are resistent to winter..and there comes a spring after every winter.
My project? I base the things I say based on logic, rationality and reason with proof. However even me doing that people like yourself reject it. However besides me coming to such a conclusion something has happened that CONFIRMED what I say. Which is the reaction of Erdogan. If there was no such a scare for igniting a wake up call among the Kurds in Noth Kurdistan (modern day south eastern Turkey) as they never have any feelings or desire to separate from the Turks Erdogan would not have reacted that way. So yes I laugh and not even a little bit but out loud.
That being said the things you say are the worries of tomorrow not of today who would want to vote etc. What is important to keep in mind is there are Kurds and Kurds are the root origin for PKK for example still existing. Turks knows this that is why they have tried to that deal of free visas with EU so Kurds could flee from their homeland giving the Turks the ability to change the demographics of the area.
Believe what you want. We might differ in conclusions of what is gonna happen or looking like it but this will be confirmed in the future which one of us is right. My conclusion is ..it is time to start cleaning the Ummah of hypocrisy. ISIS has done that but now slowly I also am seeing this be done with the Turks. Even others agreed with me for example with whole Turkish stance the last couple of years. Every time the Turks are being cornered that which trues to hide in the heart Allah shows to the Muslims...as the Turks time after time show clear intend of nationalism above Deen. Even just recently. Erdogan cares about Rohynga and they being oppressed but do the same to other Muslims. Internet shows it all.
It is.changing..and fast beyond my expectations and not for the better of the Turks that for sure. And my "obsession" with the Turks and not with others is because I hate hypocrisy. Iran are Shia just like modern day Iraqi government and could even say syrian government (alewi). However the Turks say they are sunni Muslims that is just ..not acceptable to me...even saddam hussein was rather secular and not really kept pretending to be Muslim time after time like Erdogan doing it.
Last edited by Simple_Person; 09-27-2017 at 03:52 AM.
Just not so long ago there were chaos with Al-Aqsa Mosque. I believe i never read anywhere that Erdogan has said something as similar like this. So Israel doing whatever they want with Al-Aqsa Mosque and such is oke, but when it comes to Kurds suddenly that is reason enough to speak out about the relations.
Many would say i am being a nationalist. I say, let him speak in case of BOTH instances, so to say, but this again sub'han'Allah isn't happening. Again don't care about deen, but nationalism is all that he lives for.
The Arabs are being played sooo hard. I mean even in case of Iraq. I am myself a Kurd and logically speaking the gas/oil on Kurdish lands belongs to them, but for the sake of argument lets say that gas/oil indeed belongs to whole Iraq. KRG (Kurdistan Regional Government) has been transporting oil through Turkey for some years now. Iraq KNOWS this and Turkey is well aware of what they are doing. So they (Turkey) is raising the middle finger to Iraq the whole time. No wonder Islam is being depicted as a "backward"-religion if people have to look at those nationalistic Arabs and their intellect. Being screwed on a clear daylight while you know it.
Last edited by Simple_Person; 09-27-2017 at 12:54 PM.
Sub'han'Allah, Hypocrisy has NO limits with hypocrites.
"The borders are between Turkey and Iraq, not borders between Turkey and Kurdish regional authorities"
So all those years Baghdad (Iraq) was screaming from the roof tops about the oil Kurds are transporting through Turkey for their own gain, was illegal, but Turkey saw borders between Turkey and Kurdish regional authorities because Turkey had financial gain in it, yet now because it is not in their interests, suddenly it is Turkey and Iraq and not Turkey and Kurdish regional authorities.
And all those Arabs..such fools to trust such hypocrites. Kurds know the Turks all to well..as they are backstabbers, Russia has even just recently also experienced it, but also the Arab rebels against Assad have noticed this backstabbing, as even to ISIS have noticed this backstabbing. With every step the Turks are taking, it is like Allah showing to the whole wide world, but ESPECIALLY the NAIVE Muslims who think of the Turks as military power that will fight for Islam that these guys should not be trusted. With each day i am amazed that Arabic is the language of the Qur'an and Arabs do not have to learn it so to say as it is their native language, yet somehow Arabs can in no way be associated with intellect.
I do not have enough knowledge on this conflict and also many other conflicts because i am tired of hearing them (though i worry for the innocent muslim) and also because of the media which is mostly kuffar and their intention to downgrade Islam and to confuse the muslim ummah (lies & twists) So I rarely believe those news and unable to decide who's wrong ? or who's right ? except in those cases where i happened to get first hand info from the direct victims and so on . So normally I do not enter such threads.
But I would like to remind the world that good Kurd Muslims must be respected and honoured for the favour Salauhuddin Ayyubi ( May Allah show his mercy and pleased with him) has done on this Ummah during the crusades by saving the blessed body of Nabi from the crusaders for which every Muslim is indebted to Hafiz Salaudeen Ayyubi (Rah alay) and his people.
May our beloved Turkish brothers and beloved Erdogan shed a little light on this and come to a peaceful terms and settlement with Kurdish Brothers and win their sincere co operation in all matter specially Military because they are in them great fighters like Hafiz Ayyubi was.
May Allah ar rahman unite this Ummah and save from the SHAITANS that are trying to divide and rule over this ummah.
Just a Muslim with Glorious Quran and (hadith) sunnah as my guide as in verse 41:33 '' And who is better in speech than one who invites to Allah and does righteousness and says, "Indeed, I am of the Muslims."
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from the crusaders for which every Muslim is indebted to Hafiz Salaudeen Ayyubi (Rah alay) and his people.
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