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    anatolian's Avatar
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    Turkish-Kurdish Conflict

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person View Post
    (OFFTOPIC)


    http://ekurd.net/turkish-kurdistan-vote-war-2017-08-24

    Can you now understand how Turks bring up the whole PKK debate as..."We hate PKK, but we don't hate Kurds". Now is my logical, rational and reasonable question..what HAS Barzani (PDK) to do with PKK? They hate one another as in the past they even have fought against each other. However when i hear such things from such Turks, this is rather a wake up call to me that it has NOTHING to do with PKK, but they HATE Kurds. Which automatically includes me as i am a Kurd. The Turks fight for the Turkmen in Kirkuk, however when Kurds say what about Kurds in modern day south-east Turkey to Turks..then suddenly Kurds must keep their mouth shut. Isn't this hypocrisy? Isn't this a clear sign that these people have absolutely NOTHING to do with Islam and killing such people that show such level of hypocrisy is rather permissible according Islamic view. That is why even if a Kurd fighting along side PKK dies at the hands of the Turkish soldier, to me he is rather a martyr.

    I do not look at ooh that one is a "Muslim" and that one is a "non-Muslim". I see two groups. One is fighting oppression according to Islamic perspective and the other is oppressing. No need to bring out the whole ..ooh but he is a Muslim and that other guy isn't. If somebody is a Muslim, he MUST abide by Islamic rulings, there is no excuse to oppress a certain people..be it Muslim or non-Muslim.

    Many people THINK that just because they say i am a Muslim, that they automatically will end up in paradise. While there are for example clear hadith that say if one has pride or arrogance the size of a mustard seed he will not enter paradise. If one even thinks about this of having arrogance/pride the size of a mustard seed ...well iblies also believes in Allah, but has arrogance and pride. We all know he will end up in hell fire and will not enter paradise whatsoever.

    EDIT: ..yeah..what happened to ..ooh we hate PKK? You see these guys they say we are Muslims, but their actions show something else. Another confirmation they hate Kurds and PKK is just the excuse.

    https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/2...distan-turkey/
    I have told you several times before what your problem is. You are generalizing people. There is a general "Turks" image in your eyes and you refer to it as "they/them" and unfortunately what you have is an illusionary image. Turk is the name of a race and nation and in wider extend it refers to all Turkic people from Uyghuristan to Turkey but not only Turkish people of Turkey and "we" differ a lot in ideology, philosophy and in several other aspects of life. As for Turkish people of Turkey that makes approximately %75 of Turkey's total population, there are people who are more nationalist, more racist, more Islamist, more communist, more Kemalist, more westernist, more humanist, more universalist etc. people compared to some others. This is a diverse people. So, I simply suggest you to wipe out that "Turks" image from your mind.

    I want to give a short history lecture before coming to the current problem. Turks and Kurds have always been allies in Anatolia since Turks started to migrate to the region after the battle of Manzikert. Even Kurds took the side of Turks (Seljuks) against the Byzantines in this battle. And Turks have always given the reward of this favour. Since both were Muslims. Of course some revolts occured against the rulers but this cannot be explained with nationalist motives since several Turks revolted against the Ottoman Empire through out history as well. However, the first nationallist and also Islamist motivational Kurdish rebelion against Turks occured just after the Turkish independace war in 1922. The British supported Kurdish Sheikh Said revolted against the new State to create another Kurdish Islamic state in South Eastern Anatolia. That was obviously plotted by the British. Brits have long been aware of the stateless Kurds and wanted to use them to create a satelite state in the mid of mid-east to control this oil-rich region. The revolt was harshly supressed.

    After that, I agree some racist governments culturally and some times physically oppressed Kurds. Most especially the military government after the 1980 coup oppressed Kurds a lot. But again we must see the grater map. PKK was found in 1977, before the coup. You must also knwo that Abdullah Öcalan was the leader of "ülkücüler/idealists" an extreme Turkish nationalist movement in the university years in early 70s. Öcalan's mother was Turk as he says. He disappears for a while and turns back with "PKK!". Also you must know that the 1980 coup was plotted by CIA. After the withdrawal of the British empire from the mid-east America had taken the same "mission". At first it seems contradictory for America to create a communist group like PKK but if you are a good "chess master" sometimes you must give a small pawn for the ultimate victory. All those so called Kurdish rebels, in fact terrorists ,of mid-east ,PKK, PJAK, YPG, Peshmerga etc., were created and/or are supported by America for the same target. Controlling the middle east from it's centre.

    PKK may have fought with Peshmerga because of a power conflict. They have been usually allies. Both Barzani and Talabani confesses that they had given support to PKK several times in some records. PKK are one of the worst and most cruel terrorist groups of all times. They did not target only the Turkish military but also civilian people including Turks and Kurds. They killed teachers considering them the representatives of "Turkish faicism". They killed Kurds and even their children in front of them who opposed PKK. They are suicide bombing in the middle of crowds in the cities. I am sure you are well aware of these atrocities of PKK and still say what they do can be Islamically justified. Either I don't know anything about Islam or you don't. There is not a third option. We will go on to slay these terrorists. If you consider them martyr thats your problem. And I can assure you at least half of Turkish Kurds oppose PKK and all seperatism. We can uderstand this even from the vote ratio of HDP. They had around %10 in the last elections but the total ethnic Kurdish population in Turkey is estimated around %20-22 and we cant even say all Kurds voting HDP are pro-PKK.

    I see only one option for the peace. Each side must recognize their faults. The racist Turks will give up racism and terrorist Kurds will give up terrorism. That's it.
    Turkish-Kurdish Conflict

    You harvest what you sow.

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    Re: Turkish-Kurdish Conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by anatolian View Post
    I have told you several times before what your problem is. You are generalizing people. There is a general "Turks" image in your eyes and you refer to it as "they/them" and unfortunately what you have is an illusionary image. Turk is the name of a race and nation and in wider extend it refers to all Turkic people from Uyghuristan to Turkey but not only Turkish people of Turkey and "we" differ a lot in ideology, philosophy and in several other aspects of life. As for Turkish people of Turkey that makes approximately %75 of Turkey's total population, there are people who are more nationalist, more racist, more Islamist, more communist, more Kemalist, more westernist, more humanist, more universalist etc. people compared to some others. This is a diverse people. So, I simply suggest you to wipe out that "Turks" image from your mind.

    I want to give a short history lecture before coming to the current problem. Turks and Kurds have always been allies in Anatolia since Turks started to migrate to the region after the battle of Manzikert. Even Kurds took the side of Turks (Seljuks) against the Byzantines in this battle. And Turks have always given the reward of this favour. Since both were Muslims. Of course some revolts occured against the rulers but this cannot be explained with nationalist motives since several Turks revolted against the Ottoman Empire through out history as well. However, the first nationallist and also Islamist motivational Kurdish rebelion against Turks occured just after the Turkish independace war in 1922. The British supported Kurdish Sheikh Said revolted against the new State to create another Kurdish Islamic state in South Eastern Anatolia. That was obviously plotted by the British. Brits have long been aware of the stateless Kurds and wanted to use them to create a satelite state in the mid of mid-east to control this oil-rich region. The revolt was harshly supressed.

    After that, I agree some racist governments culturally and some times physically oppressed Kurds. Most especially the military government after the 1980 coup oppressed Kurds a lot. But again we must see the grater map. PKK was found in 1977, before the coup. You must also knwo that Abdullah Öcalan was the leader of "ülkücüler/idealists" an extreme Turkish nationalist movement in the university years in early 70s. Öcalan's mother was Turk as he says. He disappears for a while and turns back with "PKK!". Also you must know that the 1980 coup was plotted by CIA. After the withdrawal of the British empire from the mid-east America had taken the same "mission". At first it seems contradictory for America to create a communist group like PKK but if you are a good "chess master" sometimes you must give a small pawn for the ultimate victory. All those so called Kurdish rebels, in fact terrorists ,of mid-east ,PKK, PJAK, YPG, Peshmerga etc., were created and/or are supported by America for the same target. Controlling the middle east from it's centre.

    PKK may have fought with Peshmerga because of a power conflict. They have been usually allies. Both Barzani and Talabani confesses that they had given support to PKK several times in some records. PKK are one of the worst and most cruel terrorist groups of all times. They did not target only the Turkish military but also civilian people including Turks and Kurds. They killed teachers considering them the representatives of "Turkish faicism". They killed Kurds and even their children in front of them who opposed PKK. They are suicide bombing in the middle of crowds in the cities. I am sure you are well aware of these atrocities of PKK and still say what they do can be Islamically justified. Either I don't know anything about Islam or you don't. There is not a third option. We will go on to slay these terrorists. If you consider them martyr thats your problem. And I can assure you at least half of Turkish Kurds oppose PKK and all seperatism. We can uderstand this even from the vote ratio of HDP. They had around %10 in the last elections but the total ethnic Kurdish population in Turkey is estimated around %20-22 and we cant even say all Kurds voting HDP are pro-PKK.

    I see only one option for the peace. Each side must recognize their faults. The racist Turks will give up racism and terrorist Kurds will give up terrorism. That's it.
    There is a solution to all of this. Give a referendum to all the Kurds (ONLY the Kurds) and make them decide what they want to do. Do they want a independent Kurdistan or stick with Turkey, this simple solution is not given by Turkey. This rather indicates that Turks (Government) KNOW if they would do that there is a very high chance majority would vote independence. PKK has done their fair share of injustice, nobody is denying that. However suddenly they are terrorist, but Turkish state also done their fair of injustice..(collateral damage), but also killing people who speak out about the Kurdish issue being killed by MIT..is that suddenly not be branded as terrorist?..but racist..look at your mentality. Slowly comes up what you try to hide. Also Ocalan being from that group you say he was, based on what evidence..Turkish sources?.please..dude you think Turkish state would tell you the truth so easily? Also about Mustafa Kemal he has done EVERYTHING that is in the favor for the state of Israel to come in to existence, but this is off course not talked about by Turks. Splitting everything up, trying to destroy what Ottomans stood for or tried at least.

    CIA this and western powers that. Lets say for the sake of argument i agree with everything you say. How come Turkey is still part of NATO then? Those same power have done those evil things against the Turks yet Turks show opportunistic lifestyle. In other words acting like a prostitute and undressing them so somebody could do their business today and somebody else tomorrow. No principles at all.

    I am also talking about modern day Turkey not other Turks. You know this, but somehow you want beat around the bush.

    About PKK, till this day i am more then sure that many MIT agents are with PKK.

    Turkish Turks as you also said before that they are either one or the other way nationalistic. That is my whole problem with but now you are saying i am generalizing =_=!. If generalizing is me directing my speech towards every nationalistic Turk there is, then i fully agree with you that i am "generalizing". You say you are Muslim, but tend rather lean towards nationalism. Why i bite on this and don't let it go, is rather when i smell hypocrisy i tend to want to do everything in my ability to show the hypocrisy to others. Simply by giving evidence and logical questions that they can conclude for themselves if it is true or not.

    Enjoy your Turkey while it lasts, if there is something that i most am disgusted by are not the people that do not know and because of ignorance do and say things that are rather towards injustice, what i am disgusted by is people who do know and when it is talked about certain things and suddenly they wish something for themselves, but not for others. Your comment is FULL of it. Typical behavior of iblies. Don't wish something for others, but only wish it for yourself. Allah is my witness i have told you everything in my ability. If you die in this mentality and according to Islam without a doubt is oppression, i will with all be testifying against you on the Day of Judgement.

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    Re: Turkish-Kurdish Conflict

    It should be worth noting that the United Nations (Birlesmis Milletler) is conducting an investigation into the treatment of Kurds in the Southeast, and many nations have accused Turkey of war crimes and crimes against humanity, and the UN has accused the Turkish government of "massive destruction, killings, and numerous other human rights violations." Entire cities have been destroyed, and many people have been tortured or killed in the bombings or shootings,

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    Re: Turkish-Kurdish Conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustafa16 View Post
    It should be worth noting that the United Nations (Birlesmis Milletler) is conducting an investigation into the treatment of Kurds in the Southeast, and many nations have accused Turkey of war crimes and crimes against humanity, and the UN has accused the Turkish government of "massive destruction, killings, and numerous other human rights violations." Entire cities have been destroyed, and many people have been tortured or killed in the bombings or shootings,
    Bro, you get the whole point wrong. I have said earlier that everything nonsense. This "Freedom" , " democracy" , "freedom of speech", "human rights"..etc etc.

    To make it less abstract. In south Kurdistan (modern day Northern Iraq) The Kurds say they want to have a vote for independence. According to international law this is their right to have such a vote and according to human rights it is also their right to choose their destiny.

    Now what is it then?..US says we do not support this independence vote. .EU says we do not support this independence vote..Turkey just in April with whole referendum about presidential vote..is also saying we do not support independence vote. UN says also we do not support independence vote.

    Now every country that SHOUTS from roof tops about "democracy", "human rights", "freedom of this and that"..suddenly when some choice is needed to be made then everything they shout has suddenly become not important. This has proven two points at least what i have been saying for some time.

    Democracy and freedom of this and that and human rights is biggest bull****. The second thing is UN is the biggest mafia group out there. It is all biggest pile of cr**. Everything they say is cr*p. Do not listen to them and do not work with them...all liars no principles no dignity no nothing of any value.

    This even you do not have to believe me. The reality itself is proving itself. Look at Trump right now. There is a BIG gap now between left and right in US..what happened to democracy where the majority to certain rules wins and decides what is gonna happen. Well it shows that as long as the mindset is not the same like a big group suddenly you should go against this democracy and freedom of speech..in other words biggest lie there is. Brexit another example majority has decided it..and the small group is now trying to postpone it the best they can. UN itself is collapsing. The UN was setup so countries "could have dialogue" with one another and not use war instead. This also has proved it was biggest lie out there. The biggest players just used it to create a rigged game so small players submitted to their corrupt way of thinking. Invade countries ..occupy countries and the small players just have to accept it with a big smile on their face because that is "according" to International law and thus permitted. The whole monetary system is also collapsing and no media is telling you that. The only thing one needs to do is take the currencies and compare them to one another and even to value of goods. You will see that currencies had way bigger value even 30 years back or less. So the 100 dollars 30 years back you could buy lets say 300 bread, while now it has reduced to the SAME 100 dollars only 100 bread.

    When money has reached only the value of the metal in coins and paper money the value of paper, how many people you think will join the army? You think majority would join the army for the sake of their country? For patriotism? This is what differentiates Muslims from nationalists. Because we do it for the sake of Allah and Allah never goes away. If one believes or not believes in Allah, it doesn't take away His value. He will always remain and His value will always remain.

    Everything is collapsing..nothing is remaining..all the lies Allah is revealing however you have to only pay some attention to it to see it. Again do NOT believe me go and do your own research you have internet at your finger tips. A few hours and you can come up with your own conclusion. But stop this whole faith in this lie that is called democracy and human rights this and freedom of this and that. It is better for you, because if you keep to that mindset and have faith in these lies when they collapse, you yourself will collapse. As everything that you had faith in that was according to "honesty" and "justice" according to you and no longer exists.. you will go haywire.
    Last edited by Simple_Person; 08-27-2017 at 02:45 AM.

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    Re: Turkish-Kurdish Conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person View Post
    Bro, you get the whole point wrong. I have said earlier that everything nonsense. This "Freedom" , " democracy" , "freedom of speech", "human rights"..etc etc.

    To make it less abstract. In south Kurdistan (modern day Northern Iraq) The Kurds say they want to have a vote for independence. According to international law this is their right to have such a vote and according to human rights it is also their right to choose their destiny.

    Now what is it then?..US says we do not support this independence vote. .EU says we do not support this independence vote..Turkey just in April with whole referendum about presidential vote..is also saying we do not support independence vote. UN says also we do not support independence vote.

    Now every country that SHOUTS from roof tops about "democracy", "human rights", "freedom of this and that"..suddenly when some choice is needed to be made then everything they shout has suddenly become not important. This has proven two points at least what i have been saying for some time.

    Democracy and freedom of this and that and human rights is biggest bull****. The second thing is UN is the biggest mafia group out there. It is all biggest pile of cr**. Everything they say is cr*p. Do not listen to them and do not work with them...all liars no principles no dignity no nothing of any value.

    This even you do not have to believe me. The reality itself is proving itself. Look at Trump right now. There is a BIG gap now between left and right in US..what happened to democracy where the majority to certain rules wins and decides what is gonna happen. Well it shows that as long as the mindset is not the same like a big group suddenly you should go against this democracy and freedom of speech..in other words biggest lie there is. Brexit another example majority has decided it..and the small group is now trying to postpone it the best they can. UN itself is collapsing. The UN was setup so countries "could have dialogue" with one another and not use war instead. This also has proved it was biggest lie out there. The biggest players just used it to create a rigged game so small players submitted to their corrupt way of thinking. Invade countries ..occupy countries and the small players just have to accept it with a big smile on their face because that is "according" to International law and thus permitted. The whole monetary system is also collapsing and no media is telling you that. The only thing one needs to do is take the currencies and compare them to one another and even to value of goods. You will see that currencies had way bigger value 30 years back. So the 100 dollars 30 years back you could buy lets say 300 bread, while now it has reduced to the SAME 100 dollars only 100 bread.

    When money has reached only the value of the metal in coins and paper money the value of paper, how many people you think will join the army? You think majority would join the army for the sake of their country? For patriotism? This is what differentiates Muslims from nationalists. Because we do it for the sake of Allah and Allah never goes away. If one believes or not believes in Allah, it doesn't take away His value. He will always remain and His value will always remain.

    Everything is collapsing..nothing is remaining..all the lies Allah is revealing however you have to only pay some attention to it to see it. Again do NOT believe me go and do your own research you have internet at your finger tips. A few hours and you can come up with your own conclusion.
    First of all, no disrespect, but you obviously don't know how the UN works. The EU and the US don't control the entire UN, and some parts of the Un exist indepedently on nations' elitist or popular opinion, even though it is a community of countries. Second, the UN does not get involved in matters of state sovereignty, but only works in cases where international law has been violated, such as with genocide, indiscrimminate killing, ethnic cleansing, rape, excessive force, and severe human rights abuses. Just because they condemn turkey for human rights violations, does not mean they oppose EVERYTHING Turkey does against the Kurds. Like the need for a referendum. I think what you're getting at is that the UN does not do enough to stop atrocities.

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    Re: Turkish-Kurdish Conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustafa16 View Post
    First of all, no disrespect, but you obviously don't know how the UN works. The EU and the US don't control the entire UN, and some parts of the Un exist indepedently on nations' elitist or popular opinion, even though it is a community of countries. Second, the UN does not get involved in matters of state sovereignty, but only works in cases where international law has been violated, such as with genocide, indiscrimminate killing, ethnic cleansing, rape, excessive force, and severe human rights abuses. Just because they condemn turkey for human rights violations, does not mean they oppose EVERYTHING Turkey does against the Kurds. Like the need for a referendum. I think what you're getting at is that the UN does not do enough to stop atrocities.
    That was the last time i tried to make something in you to ignite and you start questioning. I will leave it at that. Don't come crying if "i told you so" has slapped across your face. Because i know when "i told you so" has woken people up from a dream by giving them the red pill they tend to either become so depressed by commit suicide because everything they believed was a lie or just like a zombie try to wake up every day finding no joy in life often still look to suicide as the way out.

    Good luck with everything

    Peace

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    Re: Turkish-Kurdish Conflict

    ^ If someone disagrees with you, you don´t have to start attacking. Leave personal attacks away and this discussion doesn´t enter to wild fight - as it sometimes here happens.
    Turkish-Kurdish Conflict

    From Occupied Palestine:

    We have suffered too much for too long. We will not accept apartheid masked as peace. We will settle for no less than our freedom.




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    Re: Turkish-Kurdish Conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by sister herb View Post
    ^ If someone disagrees with you, you don´t have to start attacking. Leave personal attacks away and this discussion doesn´t enter to wild fight - as it sometimes here happens.
    This isn't a personal attack =_=!. Also about disagreement, it isn't my opinion, the data is right there for every person that says "you know what, 'i care' and i'm gonna take a look at this data". It is like Islam..it is right there ..the choice is rather given to you to want to spend some time investigating it or not..choice is yours.

    In case of Mustafa16, he rather wants to stick in to the dream of BELIEVING what is being said to him by the system. His trust is so strong in the system, while for just a little bit critical person you can see the cracks of the system that when you look through it, you will see the truth.

    If you see this as a "personal" attack, then for sure every time somebody has said to another person when doing da'wah well stick to what you want to believe instead of waking up and analyzing the existing data, thus coming to the conclusion yourself...then every Muslim doing da'wah that has said something similar has attacked a person that he had being doing da'wah to =_=!.

    This might be me, but i start to see a bit more how sensitive people these days have become. One says "hello" and the other person is already very emotional because you did not say "hello, how are you?" instead. Emotions is what we these days pursue, not really logic, rationality and reason.

    Anyways, peace.

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    Re: Turkish-Kurdish Conflict

    ^ Well, next time when you write such post to someone, think how you would answer to it if someone else post it to you. Take this as kindly advice from the older sister (who has seen many times how problems start in this forum).
    Turkish-Kurdish Conflict

    From Occupied Palestine:

    We have suffered too much for too long. We will not accept apartheid masked as peace. We will settle for no less than our freedom.




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    Re: Turkish-Kurdish Conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by sister herb View Post
    ^ Well, next time when you write such post to someone, think how you would answer to it if someone else post it to you. Take this as kindly advice from the older sister (who has seen many times how problems start in this forum).
    If somebody would have posted exactly how i have posted, i would ask the person some questions why they have come to that conclusion to further understand their point of view. If somebody really cared for me to know the truth, they would spend time on me and try to help me out to give the necessary information, so that i also do not follow like a sheep and rather be critical and ask questions. I would not say..no it is like this or like that. I have said it before ask yourself 1000 times maybe that other person is right on 1 aspect. About the whole perspective of Mustafa16, is all trust in the system. I have looked from all kind of perspectives if there is even a ounce of justice in it..well this answers it all..

    How to get away with murder? Most popular UN Library book in 2015 about immunity from war crimes: http://www.ibtimes.com.au/how-get-aw...crimes-1498358

    Maybe i am different than most of the people, but i again stick to what i said before..people have become WAY TO emotional. So that many people on this forum have started to go haywire because they cannot reason, well that indeed confirms the level of intellectual debate. In other words, live and let live. If somebody is not ready to put their emotions on the side and not follow logic, rationality and reason, then never mind that person. That person is just not ready for the input of information.
    Last edited by Simple_Person; 08-27-2017 at 10:22 AM.

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    Re: Turkish-Kurdish Conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person View Post
    people have become WAY TO emotional. So that many people on this forum have started to go haywire because they cannot reason, well that indeed confirms the level of intellectual debate. In other words, live and let live. If somebody is not ready to put their emotions on the side and not follow logic, rationality and reason, then never mind that person. That person is just not ready for the input of information.
    In this I agree with you. Everyone should remember to stay in topic and avoid too personal commentations. As reminder this matter, I made my the first comment to this thread. I am glad you too have found out this matter and can now avoid it.

    Turkish-Kurdish Conflict

    From Occupied Palestine:

    We have suffered too much for too long. We will not accept apartheid masked as peace. We will settle for no less than our freedom.




  15. #12
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    Re: Turkish-Kurdish Conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person View Post
    There is a solution to all of this. Give a referendum to all the Kurds (ONLY the Kurds) and make them decide what they want to do. Do they want a independent Kurdistan or stick with Turkey, this simple solution is not given by Turkey. This rather indicates that Turks (Government) KNOW if they would do that there is a very high chance majority would vote independence. PKK has done their fair share of injustice, nobody is denying that. However suddenly they are terrorist, but Turkish state also done their fair of injustice..(collateral damage), but also killing people who speak out about the Kurdish issue being killed by MIT..is that suddenly not be branded as terrorist?..but racist..look at your mentality. Slowly comes up what you try to hide. Also Ocalan being from that group you say he was, based on what evidence..Turkish sources?.please..dude you think Turkish state would tell you the truth so easily? Also about Mustafa Kemal he has done EVERYTHING that is in the favor for the state of Israel to come in to existence, but this is off course not talked about by Turks. Splitting everything up, trying to destroy what Ottomans stood for or tried at least.

    CIA this and western powers that. Lets say for the sake of argument i agree with everything you say. How come Turkey is still part of NATO then? Those same power have done those evil things against the Turks yet Turks show opportunistic lifestyle. In other words acting like a prostitute and undressing them so somebody could do their business today and somebody else tomorrow. No principles at all.

    I am also talking about modern day Turkey not other Turks. You know this, but somehow you want beat around the bush.

    About PKK, till this day i am more then sure that many MIT agents are with PKK.

    Turkish Turks as you also said before that they are either one or the other way nationalistic. That is my whole problem with but now you are saying i am generalizing =_=!. If generalizing is me directing my speech towards every nationalistic Turk there is, then i fully agree with you that i am "generalizing". You say you are Muslim, but tend rather lean towards nationalism. Why i bite on this and don't let it go, is rather when i smell hypocrisy i tend to want to do everything in my ability to show the hypocrisy to others. Simply by giving evidence and logical questions that they can conclude for themselves if it is true or not.

    Enjoy your Turkey while it lasts, if there is something that i most am disgusted by are not the people that do not know and because of ignorance do and say things that are rather towards injustice, what i am disgusted by is people who do know and when it is talked about certain things and suddenly they wish something for themselves, but not for others. Your comment is FULL of it. Typical behavior of iblies. Don't wish something for others, but only wish it for yourself. Allah is my witness i have told you everything in my ability. If you die in this mentality and according to Islam without a doubt is oppression, i will with all be testifying against you on the Day of Judgement.
    No matter. Allah is just and He decides best. If I am what you say He already punishes me but if I am not, what you testify will have no bearing. You are so emotional and prejudicial. I am telling you that I recognize the oppression commited against the Kurds of Turkey but still you are blaming me with "oppression". For which action am I blamed with that? How do I oppress Kurds? And you guys confuse racism with nationalism always. It was the racists who oppressed Kurds not nationalists. Everybody is nationalist in some extent. Nationalism means having an extra care, respect and love for the things related to your own nation. Its not a supremacy like racism. You are for example a perfect Kurdish nationalist. Just read your own old posts. You bring up your Kurdishness in almost every thread either about ethnicities or not. Now, althought I am a Turkish nationalist myself, I am trying to be a just person always and admit the crimes commited agianst the Kurdish people of Turkey. We have always had a deep state and yes they killed some Kurdish buisiness men and community leaders in 90s. (But we also know that many Kurdish buisiness men were financially supporting Pkk.) What else, I am not trying to advocate the state of Turkey in each case. But when you compare the injustices commited by "two sides", Pkk largely outweighs.

    I am totally against Turkey's membership of NATO. That harms us more than help. Also it harms our Muslim brethren.

    I wonder what Atatürk did for the state of Israel to come in to existence. Thats beyond me.

    This video was taken in apo's first query. You translate it. "BENİM İLK ÜYELİĞİM ÜLKÜ OCAKLARINADIR" means my first admission was for nationalist youth...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t99_oClxfBA

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustafa16 View Post
    It should be worth noting that the United Nations (Birlesmis Milletler) is conducting an investigation into the treatment of Kurds in the Southeast, and many nations have accused Turkey of war crimes and crimes against humanity, and the UN has accused the Turkish government of "massive destruction, killings, and numerous other human rights violations." Entire cities have been destroyed, and many people have been tortured or killed in the bombings or shootings,
    Sorry but this is just crap unless backed up with real evidence. Which cities were entirely destroyed in Turkey I really wonder.

    - - - Updated - - -

    http://aa.com.tr/en/turkey/pkk-kills...-turkey/895398

    Meanwhile somewhere in SE Turkey..So called Marxist PKK kills workers..
    Last edited by anatolian; 08-28-2017 at 11:05 PM.
    Turkish-Kurdish Conflict

    You harvest what you sow.

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    Re: Turkish-Kurdish Conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by anatolian View Post
    No matter. Allah is just and He decides best. If I am what you say He already punishes me but if I am not, what you testify will have no bearing. You are so emotional and prejudicial. I am telling you that I recognize the oppression commited against the Kurds of Turkey but still you are blaming me with "oppression". For which action am I blamed with that? How do I oppress Kurds? And you guys confuse racism with nationalism always. It was the racists who oppressed Kurds not nationalists. Everybody is nationalist in some extent. Nationalism means having an extra care, respect and love for the things related to your own nation. Its not a supremacy like racism. You are for example a perfect Kurdish nationalist. Just read your own old posts. You bring up your Kurdishness in almost every thread either about ethnicities or not. Now, althought I am a Turkish nationalist myself, I am trying to be a just person always and admit the crimes commited agianst the Kurdish people of Turkey. We have always had a deep state and yes they killed some Kurdish buisiness men and community leaders in 90s. (But we also know that many Kurdish buisiness men were financially supporting Pkk.) What else, I am not trying to advocate the state of Turkey in each case. But when you compare the injustices commited by "two sides", Pkk largely outweighs.

    I am totally against Turkey's membership of NATO. That harms us more than help. Also it harms our Muslim brethren.

    I wonder what Atatürk did for the state of Israel to come in to existence. Thats beyond me.

    This video was taken in apo's first query. You translate it. "BENİM İLK ÜYELİĞİM ÜLKÜ OCAKLARINADIR" means my first admission was for nationalist youth...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t99_oClxfBA

    - - - Updated - - -



    Sorry but this is just crap unless backed up with real evidence. Which cities were entirely destroyed in Turkey I really wonder.

    - - - Updated - - -

    http://aa.com.tr/en/turkey/pkk-kills...-turkey/895398

    Meanwhile somewhere in SE Turkey..So called Marxist PKK kills workers..
    here it is, straight from the UN website: https://www.un.org/apps/news/story.a...0#.WaSxQciGPIV

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    Re: Turkish-Kurdish Conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by anatolian View Post
    No matter. Allah is just and He decides best. If I am what you say He already punishes me but if I am not, what you testify will have no bearing. You are so emotional and prejudicial. I am telling you that I recognize the oppression commited against the Kurds of Turkey but still you are blaming me with "oppression". For which action am I blamed with that? How do I oppress Kurds? And you guys confuse racism with nationalism always. It was the racists who oppressed Kurds not nationalists. Everybody is nationalist in some extent. Nationalism means having an extra care, respect and love for the things related to your own nation. Its not a supremacy like racism. You are for example a perfect Kurdish nationalist. Just read your own old posts. You bring up your Kurdishness in almost every thread either about ethnicities or not. Now, althought I am a Turkish nationalist myself, I am trying to be a just person always and admit the crimes commited agianst the Kurdish people of Turkey. We have always had a deep state and yes they killed some Kurdish buisiness men and community leaders in 90s. (But we also know that many Kurdish buisiness men were financially supporting Pkk.) What else, I am not trying to advocate the state of Turkey in each case. But when you compare the injustices commited by "two sides", Pkk largely outweighs.

    I am totally against Turkey's membership of NATO. That harms us more than help. Also it harms our Muslim brethren.

    I wonder what Atatürk did for the state of Israel to come in to existence. Thats beyond me.

    This video was taken in apo's first query. You translate it. "BENİM İLK ÜYELİĞİM ÜLKÜ OCAKLARINADIR" means my first admission was for nationalist youth...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t99_oClxfBA
    Allah already punishes you?..By making you blind yes and dishonest. Me a Kurdish nationalist? Since when does a nationalist says he would wipe dog sh*t with the flag of his nation from under his boots? Foe me the Kurdish flag has zero value. I would spit on the Kurdish flag as much as I would have spit on the Turkish flag. This you are totally blinded. All you see is somebody raising Kurdish question and typical Turkish behavior of saying you are a nationalist by bringing up the question =_=!. Me emotional ? Yes 100% I agree with that when everything is being said and still people dishonestly choose the side of nationalism. That is when being "emotional" is just because if a person despite thinking for a moment and asking himself for a moment how come such a person is so emotional despite me admitting that Turkey being part of NATO = bad, Turkey having killed and oppressed Kurds a lot in the past ..and Erdogan not being a good leader. .what else does he want to hear?

    Admitting all those things but still defending the state of Turkey is just saying well I "admit" all these things for the sake of justifying the existence of countries and should be like it.

    Also typical Turkish behavior. Saying instead of PKK but Marxist PKK. Yes they are communist (ie without religion) if we follow that mentality then "Kafir Turkish"-state as they follow Mustafa Kemal with his secular Turkey and hypocrite Erdogan. So based on logic, rationality and reason they are no better. As in both sides people join the group and saying they are Muslims.
    So all I see is just two groups one group is even worse than the other ..one does not say they are Muslims (pkk) and the other says they are (Erdogan). Now looking at this groups actions is hypocrisy all I am seeing. In Islam the place of hypocrites is lower than of kafir in hell fire. Besides that the hearts of a kafir is in the hands of Allah. So again based on logic, rationality and reason they could become Muslim while they are still alive. Now how can a hypocrite become Muslim?..well they already say they are Muslims...so no change here. But yeah although you know this admitting it is like spitting in the face of your own mother it is just to hard for you to admit it.

    So like I said go your own way and Allah is indeed just. On the Day of Judgement if I am indeed on the side of justice be prepared that I will testify against you. Enjoy your state while it still exists.
    Last edited by Simple_Person; 08-29-2017 at 05:45 AM.
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    Re: Turkish-Kurdish Conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustafa16 View Post
    here it is, straight from the UN website: https://www.un.org/apps/news/story.a...0#.WaSxQciGPIV
    That talks about only allegations. There is not an evidence in this article for the claim. Let me tell you then, PKK has captured some towns in the southeast and there is a war between these and security forces. The pitcures show how severe is that war. Though, I fail to see an entire destruction of the cities by the security forces.

    Look what the article says "Some 10,000 teachers were reportedly dismissed on suspicion of having links with the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK), which the Government considers a terrorist organization, without due process." PKK is regarded a terrorist group by the entire world not only "the goverment of Turkey". This shows me what kind of a hypocrite is the author. They try to legalize PKK by using the West 's reaction to the current goverment of Turkey which is AKP. And you, even a Turk, seem to fall in this deception.
    Turkish-Kurdish Conflict

    You harvest what you sow.

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    Re: Turkish-Kurdish Conflict

    Kurds are a distinct peoples who want freedom from the oppression of the the Turkish state. The Turkish state officially denies the existence of ethnicities other than Turkish. You can see how that is a problem in many ways. The only solution to the Kurdish-Turkish conflict is Kurdish secession. Turkey will have to eventually concede the Kurdish territories, it's best they do it without wasting so much money and lives.

  21. #17
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    Re: Turkish-Kurdish Conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person View Post
    Allah already punishes you?..By making you blind yes and dishonest. Me a Kurdish nationalist? Since when does a nationalist says he would wipe dog sh*t with the flag of his nation from under his boots? Foe me the Kurdish flag has zero value. I would spit on the Kurdish flag as much as I would have spit on the Turkish flag. This you are totally blinded. All you see is somebody raising Kurdish question and typical Turkish behavior of saying you are a nationalist by bringing up the question =_=!. Me emotional ? Yes 100% I agree with that when everything is being said and still people dishonestly choose the side of nationalism. That is when being "emotional" is just because if a person despite thinking for a moment and asking himself for a moment how come such a person is so emotional despite me admitting that Turkey being part of NATO = bad, Turkey having killed and oppressed Kurds a lot in the past ..and Erdogan not being a good leader. .what else does he want to hear?

    Admitting all those things but still defending the state of Turkey is just saying well I "admit" all these things for the sake of justifying the existence of countries and should be like it.

    Also typical Turkish behavior. Saying instead of PKK but Marxist PKK. Yes they are communist (ie without religion) if we follow that mentality then "Kafir Turkish"-state as they follow Mustafa Kemal with his secular Turkey and hypocrite Erdogan. So based on logic, rationality and reason they are no better. As in both sides people join the group and saying they are Muslims.
    So all I see is just two groups one group is even worse than the other ..one does not say they are Muslims (pkk) and the other says they are (Erdogan). Now looking at this groups actions is hypocrisy all I am seeing. In Islam the place of hypocrites is lower than of kafir in hell fire. Besides that the hearts of a kafir is in the hands of Allah. So again based on logic, rationality and reason they could become Muslim while they are still alive. Now how can a hypocrite become Muslim?..well they already say they are Muslims...so no change here. But yeah although you know this admitting it is like spitting in the face of your own mother it is just to hard for you to admit it.

    So like I said go your own way and Allah is indeed just. On the Day of Judgement if I am indeed on the side of justice be prepared that I will testify against you. Enjoy your state while it still exists.
    How can I help you unless you clearly tell me with what I am being accused? You couldnt even tell me that simple thing yet. Is it nationalism? Since when nationalism is a crime? I am admiting the crimes Turkey has ever commited but am just not exegerating as PKK propoganda wants me to. Yes Kurdish idendity and language was forbiden once and the ones supporting it were oppressed. But I believe such things are not just reason to create a bloody terrorist group.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person View Post
    Allah already punishes you?..By making you blind yes and dishonest. Me a Kurdish nationalist? Since when does a nationalist says he would wipe dog sh*t with the flag of his nation from under his boots? Foe me the Kurdish flag has zero value. I would spit on the Kurdish flag as much as I would have spit on the Turkish flag. This you are totally blinded. All you see is somebody raising Kurdish question and typical Turkish behavior of saying you are a nationalist by bringing up the question =_=!. Me emotional ? Yes 100% I agree with that when everything is being said and still people dishonestly choose the side of nationalism. That is when being "emotional" is just because if a person despite thinking for a moment and asking himself for a moment how come such a person is so emotional despite me admitting that Turkey being part of NATO = bad, Turkey having killed and oppressed Kurds a lot in the past ..and Erdogan not being a good leader. .what else does he want to hear?

    Admitting all those things but still defending the state of Turkey is just saying well I "admit" all these things for the sake of justifying the existence of countries and should be like it.

    Also typical Turkish behavior. Saying instead of PKK but Marxist PKK. Yes they are communist (ie without religion) if we follow that mentality then "Kafir Turkish"-state as they follow Mustafa Kemal with his secular Turkey and hypocrite Erdogan. So based on logic, rationality and reason they are no better. As in both sides people join the group and saying they are Muslims.
    So all I see is just two groups one group is even worse than the other ..one does not say they are Muslims (pkk) and the other says they are (Erdogan). Now looking at this groups actions is hypocrisy all I am seeing. In Islam the place of hypocrites is lower than of kafir in hell fire. Besides that the hearts of a kafir is in the hands of Allah. So again based on logic, rationality and reason they could become Muslim while they are still alive. Now how can a hypocrite become Muslim?..well they already say they are Muslims...so no change here. But yeah although you know this admitting it is like spitting in the face of your own mother it is just to hard for you to admit it.

    So like I said go your own way and Allah is indeed just. On the Day of Judgement if I am indeed on the side of justice be prepared that I will testify against you. Enjoy your state while it still exists.
    How can I help you unless you clearly tell me with what I am being accused? You couldnt even tell me that simple thing yet. Is it nationalism? Since when nationalism is a crime? I am admiting the crimes Turkey has ever commited but am just not exegerating as PKK propoganda wants me to. Yes Kurdish idendity and language was forbiden once and the ones supporting it were oppressed. But I believe such things are not just reason to create a bloody terrorist group.

    The reason why I implied "marxist" is because they are supposedly supporter of worker rights but kill workers
    Last edited by anatolian; 08-31-2017 at 08:18 AM.
    Turkish-Kurdish Conflict

    You harvest what you sow.

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    Re: Turkish-Kurdish Conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by anatolian View Post
    How can I help you unless you clearly tell me with what I am being accused? You couldnt even tell me that simple thing yet. Is it nationalism? Since when nationalism is a crime? I am admiting the crimes Turkey has ever commited but am just not exegerating as PKK propoganda wants me to. Yes Kurdish idendity and language was forbiden once and the ones supporting it were oppressed. But I believe such things are not just reason to create a bloody terrorist group.

    - - - Updated - - -



    How can I help you unless you clearly tell me with what I am being accused? You couldnt even tell me that simple thing yet. Is it nationalism? Since when nationalism is a crime? I am admiting the crimes Turkey has ever commited but am just not exegerating as PKK propoganda wants me to. Yes Kurdish idendity and language was forbiden once and the ones supporting it were oppressed. But I believe such things are not just reason to create a bloody terrorist group.
    There is no greater reason to pick up arms
    1 | Likes Simple_Person liked this post

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    Re: Turkish-Kurdish Conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
    Kurds are a distinct peoples who want freedom from the oppression of the the Turkish state. The Turkish state officially denies the existence of ethnicities other than Turkish. You can see how that is a problem in many ways. The only solution to the Kurdish-Turkish conflict is Kurdish secession. Turkey will have to eventually concede the Kurdish territories, it's best they do it without wasting so much money and lives.
    Tell me then why HDP the so called defender of the Kurdish rights have %10 of votes despite PKK's oppresion to vote for this party? Kurds make around %22 of total population. If you can answer it I will answer the rest of your post

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
    Kurds are a distinct peoples who want freedom from the oppression of the the Turkish state. The Turkish state officially denies the existence of ethnicities other than Turkish. You can see how that is a problem in many ways. The only solution to the Kurdish-Turkish conflict is Kurdish secession. Turkey will have to eventually concede the Kurdish territories, it's best they do it without wasting so much money and lives.
    Tell me then why HDP the so called defender of the Kurdish rights have %10 of votes despite PKK's oppresion to vote for this party? Kurds make around %22 of total population. If you can answer it I will answer the rest of your post

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
    There is no greater reason to pick up arms
    Do you have any idea of their actions ?
    Last edited by anatolian; 08-31-2017 at 08:30 AM.
    Turkish-Kurdish Conflict

    You harvest what you sow.

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    Re: Turkish-Kurdish Conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by anatolian View Post
    Tell me then why HDP the so called defender of the Kurdish rights have %10 of votes despite PKK's oppresion to vote for this party? Kurds make around %22 of total population. If you can answer it I will answer the rest of your post

    - - - Updated - - -



    Tell me then why HDP the so called defender of the Kurdish rights have %10 of votes despite PKK's oppresion to vote for this party? Kurds make around %22 of total population. If you can answer it I will answer the rest of your post

    - - - Updated - - -



    Do you have any idea of their actions ?
    The PKK have committed less crimes than the Turkish state.
    Also regarding HDP, they won the majority vote in the Kurdish areas. I don't know of any group of people where the turnout is 100%. Furthermore, the HDP had 13% in the first general election of 2015, but 10% in the second one because of the escalating Turkish military campaign, which was undoubtedly orchestrated by the Turkish government to reduce the Kurdish turnout.

    Now look at HDP, a peaceful party, but its founders and members rounded up by the Turkish state.

    Turkey has no business ruling Kurds. We don't want Turkey to rule us. End of story. Why don't the Turkish people understand that simple reality?

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