If a Muslim believes in Separation of Religion and State are they still Muslims ?

format_quote Originally Posted by truthseeker63

As Salaam Alaikum my ;question is if a Muslim believes in Separation of Religion and State are they still Muslims ? I am ;not asking anyone here to make Takfir on anyone I just want to ask my reason is because I am trying to marry I did talk to a Young Woman she is Palestinian American born in the United States she wrote on her facebook that she believes in Separation of Religion and State she was raised a Sunni Muslim born in California she chooses to not wear a Hijab right now anyways my question is if a Muslim supports or is ok with Secularism are still still Muslims or outside of Islam Apostasy if the do not believe their Political Views should be based on the idea of a Islamic State a Caliphate lead by a Caliph to be honest I could name famous people in history that are still living and that have lived though out History that claimed to be ;Muslims that have believed in Separation of Religion and State just like I can name Muslims that commit Zina drink Alcohol and Gamble these are all Sins anyways I was talking to a online Muslim Friend a few weeks ago he told me he is what the Media, and the West America Canada and Europe would call a Islamist he supports believes in a Caliphate I aked him if someone can be Muslim and believe in Separation of Religion and State he told me he would not make Takfir on anyone that pray towards Mecca he also told me that he is worried that the Muslim Youth Younger Generations Worldwide is being influenced by the Liberals and Progressives the Political Left which many Muslims in the West and ,elsewhere have Allied with. I did read the Book Milestones by Syed Qutb he did make Takfir on Gamal Abdel Nasser who died in the Year 1970 he claimed to be a Muslim he also claimed to be a Socialist President of Egypt just like the Shah of Iran claimed to be a Muslim Saddam claimed to be a Muslim some Muslims will tell me only Allah can judge who is Muslim that Takfir is Human Opinions just like some Sunnis believe that Shias are not Muslims. I was reading today about a Famous Iraqi born American Muslim M.T. Mehdi he used to debate Rabbi Meir Kahane about Zionism Rabbi Meir Kahane wanted Israel to be be a Jewish Theocracy Mehdi was Clean Shaven no Beard believed Israel should be replaced by one Secular Democratic State in Palestine for all the Jews Arabs Christians Muslims not Two States based on the Pre 1967 Borders he said he did not believe in Muslim States in Christian States or in Jewish States he died, in New York City in 1998. He was a Friend of Malcolm X I read a Speech and heard Malcolm X say he believed in a Separation of Religion and Politics. I talked to a Muslim Friend he told me he never said if a Muslim believes in the Separation of Religion and State that makes them a Kafir he said a Muslim can be Secular and still believe in Islam and in Sharia I know a Imam that said it would be wrong to make Takfir on all the Rulers in the Muslim World just because they are Secular any opinions or views thank you for your time I found these links below ?



Malcolm X and the Shia Link Uploaded by Yahya Hayder Seymour Since Dr. Mehdi was an Arab nationalist and a modernist, who believed in the division between Mosque and State, he viewed religion mainly as an identity marker. Although he was not particularly devout religiously, and his brother was a self-proclaimed atheist, Dr. Mehdi was extremely devout politically (A. Mehdi 2008). The first meeting between Malcolm and Mehdi, the two dynamic leaders who were famous for their controversial sound bites, took place at a conference in April of 1958.


https://www.scribd.com/doc/111634680...-the-Shia-Link


M. T. Mehdi, 70, Arab-American LeaderBy ERIC PACEFEB. 25, 1998Mohammad T. Mehdi, an outspoken critic of Israel who was often quoted in the press and also spoke on radio and television, died on Monday. He was 70 and lived in Manhattan.Dr. Mehdi was widely known as M. T. Mehdi. At his death he was president of the American-Arab Relations Committee and secretary general of the National Council on Islamic Affairs.The settlement was widely seen as indicating the growing prominence of Muslim culture in New York City. Dr. Mehdi and two other Muslims had brought the Federal lawsuit a year and a half earlier. They said they did so after finding that some districts and schools were refusing to include the star and crescent symbol in holiday displays.


https://www.nytimes.com/1998/02/25/u...an-leader.html


Rabbi Kahane vs. Dr. Mahamoud Mechti on the Bob Grant Show Audio 15/40


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBAZVqk5_qI


M. Mehdi, A. Helton H. E, Zehdi Labib Terzi March 1987 Air date You Tube Compression


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQPzuVDTLwk


Mohammed T. Mehdi Ph.D - 03-16-91 Original Air date


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gdw5RCLxyo0



Was Malcolm X a political Islamist?He also had this to say about religion:“Although I’m still a Muslim, I’m not here tonight to discuss my religion. I’m not here tonight to try and change your religion. I’m not here to argue or discuss anything that we differ about, because it’s time to submerge our differences and realise that it is best for us to first see that we have the same problem, a common problem – a problem that will make you catch hell whether you’re a Baptist, or a Methodist, or a Muslim, or a nationalist…We’re all in the same boat…Whether we are Christians or Muslims or nationalists or agnostics or atheists, we must first learn to forget our differences, let us differ in the closet.”[12]Such a statement delivered today by a supposed so-called “Muslim leader” would certainly expose him to belittling and disparaging categorisations if not outright excommunication from certain brands of Islamists. It is quite clear from this paragraph that Malcolm had an inclusive secular approach to the African-American struggle and not an exclusive religious approach rooted in the superiority of any given religion.If anyone had missed the point, Malcolm later elaborated on how his new organisation, Muslim Mosque, Inc. intends to operate:“It’s true we’re Muslims and our religion is Islam, but we don’t mix our religion with our politics and our economics and our social and civil activities – not any more. We keep our religion in our mosque.” [13]


https://churchills-karma.com/2015/02...ical-islamist/


Malcolm X - The Ballot or the Bullet - April 4, 1964


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oVW3HfzXkg


Malcolm X "Leave your religion at home"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VQUg-AL7lk


HOME › ESSAYS - مقالات › WAS NASSER SECULAR?Was Nasser Secular?BY HASSAN KAMAL on APRIL 15, 2015 • ( 1 )The Former President of Egypt Gamal Abdel NasserBy: Hassan KamalSecondly, in the 1956 constitution of Egypt that was adopted by Gamal Abdel Nasser in public referendum, the article three is “Islam is the religion of state” and subsequently all the bodies of Egypt have to respect the religion of state that is Islam. And this indicates to the way of thinking at this time that was close to the Muslim Brotherhood not to secularization. (Click here to download the 1956 constitution of Egypt).


https://hassankamalelden.wordpress.c...asser-secular/

Asalamu Alaikum

Secularism = Kufr

Self professed "secular" Muslims are either liars or worse, murtads.

There is hypocrisy in the secular state the USA proclaims to be secular but it is liberal progressive Zionist Christian and Jewish supremacist as is the UK, while Israel proclaims to be secular but is Jewish supremacist. The Crusaders were closer in mind set to the Muslims even though they had wars with them, secularism = Godlessness and hypocrisy as we all know that all moral law was handed down through the ages by God or gods.

Salaam

This should be of interest.


Liberty, the God That Failed: Policing the Sacred and Constructing the Myths of the Secular State, from Locke to Obama

Blurb

What has gone wrong with the grand American experiment in "ordered liberty"? The liberal's answer is that America has failed to live up to its full promise of inclusiveness and equality--likely the result of corporate greed and white male ruling elites. The mainstream conservative or libertarian's reply points to the Warren Court, the 1960's, or a loss of Constitutional rectitude.

Christopher Ferrara, in Liberty, the God That Failed, offers an entirely different answer. In a counter-narrative of unique power and scope, he unmasks the order promised as a sham; the liberty guaranteed, a chimera. In his telling, the false god of a new political order--Liberty--was born in thought long before America's founding, and gained increasing devotion as it slowly amassed power during the first century of the nation's existence. Today it reveals its full might, as we bear the weight of its oppressive decrees, and experience the emptiness of the secular order it imposes upon us.

The secular state has constructed a "myth of religious violence" to mask its own violent origins and ongoing displays of force. Ferrara destroys this myth with a relentless uncovering of truths hidden by both liberal and conservative/libertarian accounts of what has gone wrong. In this brilliant retelling of American history and political life, the author asks us to open our eyes to harsh realities, but also to the possibilities for a rightly ordered society and the true liberty that can still be ours.



A review

A. M. Roach

A seminal effort that deserves wide reading

Christopher Ferrara has written, with this volume, a truly seminal critique of the founding of the United States of American, the Constitution, and the entire rationalist/enlightenment philosophy that undergird it. He establishes without question that the men who founded this nation were not, as is so often purported, orthodox Christians trying to build a better, more faithful and moral Christian society, but were in fact enlightenment deists and extreme radicals for their time, who sought to destroy the existing order so that they - the enlightened elites - could then wield power.

Mr. Ferrara goes on to show that Americans are actually substantially LESS free than their pre-revolutionary forefathers, and that the idol of liberty is actually an agent of relentless, creeping totalitarianism. Once government, any government, is de-coupled from God and His Church, the result is as inevitable as it is predictable - religious apathy, moral decay, and eventual civilizational collapse. What the American Founding Fathers did was not advance civilization, but set it back centuries by returning us to pre-Christian, Roman-inspired pagan forms of government. Even worse, they set the precedent that then unleashed a wave of horrific, spasmodic revolution around the world, sinking dozens of countries in misery and setting the stage for the terminal economic decline that now seems to face Western civilization.

I should add that, just a few short years ago, I was as "rah-rah USA is the greatest country ever Constitution nearly inspired document all the Founders were great Christians" as you could get. I have, through much study, prayer, and reflection, come to see the fallacy of that prior, carefully inculcated belief set. I say carefully inculcated, because the entire culture of the United States, and especially the public education system, are all ordered towards propagandizing people into unquestioning acceptance of the present governmental order and its philosophical underpinnings. This book did much to help me dispell those myths. I have come to the conclusion that the political-economic construct of this nation is virtually incompatible with the Catholic Faith, acceptance of which Ferrara pre-supposes as a foundational aspect of his critique.

Interesting topic... I think in theory and on paper, most states constitutions are constituted by God, which is perhaps an indication that the state cant be trusted and is inherently evil...

I think the state in Islam was meant to be something special, not the same as what has evolved into this corporate hierarchical easily corrupted state where shaytaan ensures his scum floats to the top..But the same has happened to many a religion.
which means there is a strong argument religious institutions and their dogmas should be separate from the state, but basic religious values like justice and truth and respect for the poor if removed as the cornerstone of what constitutes the state would be horrific...

I can see public opinion being swayed in that direction in the times we are living...

I love this, i am not a lover of the state or mans authority over man, but if a state and its leaders authority is needed what better more beautiful oath could be sworn?
This is lightyears ahead of its time...

Abu Bakur...(according to Wikipedia)

I have been given the authority over you, and I am not the best of you. If I do well, help me; and if I do wrong, set me right. Sincere regard for truth is loyalty and disregard for truth is treachery. The weak amongst you shall be strong with me until I have secured his rights, if God wills; and the strong amongst you shall be weak with me until I have wrested from him the rights of others, if God wills. Obey me so long as I obey God and His Messenger. But if I disobey God and His Messenger, you owe me no obedience. Arise for your prayer, God have mercy upon you.

Salaam

Where secularism can lead

Ruling according to anything other than that which is in the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of His Messenger reaches the level of kufr when two conditions are met:

1. When he knows the ruling of Allaah and His Messenger; if he is unaware of it, then he does not commit kufr by going against it.


2. When what makes him rule by something other than that which Allaah has revealed is the belief that it is a ruling that is not suitable for our time and that something else is more suitable than it and more beneficial for people.


If these two conditions are met, then ruling by something other than that which Allaah has revealed constitutes kufr which puts a person beyond the pale of Islam, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And whosoever does not judge by what Allaah has revealed, such are the Kaafiroon (i.e. disbelievers)” [al-Maa’idah 5:44]. The authority of the ruler becomes invalid and he has no right to be obeyed by the people; it becomes obligatory to fight him and remove him from power.


But if he rules by something other than that which Allaah has revealed whilst believing that ruling by that – i.e. that which Allaah has revealed -- is what is obligatory, and that it is more suitable for the people, but he goes against it because of some whims and desires on his part or because he wants to wrong the people under his rule, then he is not a kaafir; rather he is a faasiq (evildoer) or a zaalim (wrongdoer).

https://islamqa.info/en/128453

format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000

The rogue leaders and oligarchs behind governments you mention have been riding on watered down or twisted bandwagons such as liberal progressive Zionist Christian and Jewish supremacist depending on whichever way they can make the wind of perceived public opinion blow - however - corruption, falsehood, and their serving of Satan is becoming clearly apparent to the people of the planet and the chicken will be cooked after it is well skinned if injustice and absence of sincere repentance to God continues.




The Crusader leadership had one primary aim in mind - and that was the looting of the treasures of the holy lands - and also the aquisition of tablets teaching the arts of sorcery on behalf of jinn worshipping money lenders and changers who had been expelled from the holy lands had moved to the lands where ignorance and lack of strict adherence to the laws of Allah were prevalent - and the people were easier to cheat.



The sky is usually blue during the day, and Biff Tannen (“America’s greatest living folk hero.”) 's Pleasure Paradise Hotel and Casino from Back to the Future,
Attachment 6441
Attachment 6440
Attachment 6442

https://wgntv.com/2015/10/22/back-to...-donald-trump/


and McDowell's (M.I.Cdonald's?) restaurant from Coming to America

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_8nroefA1w


--are movie projections.




There is nothing worthy of worship but the One and only God who created, owns, and sustains the heavens and the earth.






-----



1. Praise be to Allah, Who created (out of nothing) the heavens and the earth, Who made the angels, messengers with wings,- two, or three, or four (pairs): He adds to Creation as He pleases: for Allah has power over all things.
2. What Allah out of his Mercy doth bestow on mankind there is none can withhold: what He doth withhold, there is none can grant, apart from Him: and He is the Exalted in Power, full of Wisdom.
3. O men! Call to mind the grace of Allah unto you! is there a creator, other than Allah, to give you sustenance from heaven or earth? There is no god but He: how then are ye deluded away from the Truth?
4. And if they reject thee, so were apostles rejected before thee: to Allah back for decision all affairs.
5. O men! Certainly the promise of Allah is true. Let not then this present life deceive you, nor let the Deceiver deceive you about Allah.
6. Verily Satan is an enemy to you: so treat him as an enemy. He only invites his adherents, that they may become Companions of the Blazing Fire.
7. For those who reject Allah, is a terrible Penalty: but for those who believe and work righteous deeds, is Forgiveness, and a magnificent Reward.
8. Is he, then, to whom the evil of his conduct is made alluring, so that he looks upon it as good, (equal to one who is rightly guided)? For Allah leaves to stray whom He wills, and guides whom He wills. So let not thy soul go out in (vainly) sighing after them: for Allah knows well all that they do!
9. It is Allah Who sends forth the Winds, so that they raise up the Clouds, and We drive them to a land that is dead, and revive the earth therewith after its death: even so (will be) the Resurrection!
10. If any do seek for glory and power,- to Allah belong all glory and power. To Him mount up (all) Words of Purity: It is He Who exalts each Deed of Righteousness. Those that lay Plots of Evil,- for them is a Penalty terrible; and the plotting of such will be void (of result).
11. And Allah did create you from dust; then from a sperm-drop; then He made you in pairs. And no female conceives, or lays down (her load), but with His knowledge. Nor is a man long-lived granted length of days, nor is a part cut off from his life, but is in a Decree (ordained). All this is easy to Allah.
12. Nor are the two bodies of flowing water alike,- the one palatable, sweet, and pleasant to drink, and the other, salt and bitter. Yet from each (kind of water) do ye eat flesh fresh and tender, and ye extract ornaments to wear; and thou seest the ships therein that plough the waves, that ye may seek (thus) of the Bounty of Allah that ye may be grateful.
13. He merges Night into Day, and he merges Day into Night, and he has subjected the sun and the moon (to his Law): each one runs its course for a term appointed. Such is Allah your Lord: to Him belongs all Dominion. And those whom ye invoke besides Him have not the least power.
14. If ye invoke them, they will not listen to your call, and if they were to listen, they cannot answer your (prayer). On the Day of Judgment they will reject your “Partnership”. and none, (O man!) can tell thee (the Truth) like the One Who is acquainted with all things.
15. O ye men! It is ye that have need of Allah. but Allah is the One Free of all wants, worthy of all praise.
16. If He so pleased, He could blot you out and bring in a New Creation.
17. Nor is that (at all) difficult for Allah.
18. Nor can a bearer of burdens bear another’s burdens if one heavily laden should call another to (bear) his load. Not the least portion of it can be carried (by the other). Even though he be nearly related. Thou canst but admonish such as fear their Lord unseen and establish regular Prayer. And whoever purifies himself does so for the benefit of his own soul; and the destination (of all) is to Allah.
19. The blind and the seeing are not alike;
20. Nor are the depths of Darkness and the Light;
21. Nor are the (chilly) shade and the (genial) heat of the sun:

From Quran Chapter 35

What I mean is the common Crusader soldier believed they were fighting for God and the common Muslim soldier also believed they were fighting for God. What the treacherous rulers believed is unknown. They could be Jinns for all I know. With what evil and treachery that conspires in this world it is hard to believe they are just people. I feel there is a malevolent force orchestrating the past, present and future and it has infiltrated everywhere.