What's wrong with Muslims?

format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran

Thats like saying Ibn Taymiyya (ra) opinion on divorce is a minority and therefore its irrelevant. Doesn't work well for salafis as they follow plenty of opinions that are in the minority including Tawassul. Doesn't make it wrong.

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No it doesn't, salafis should know that better they anyone.

Following a minority opinion is not wrong so long as that minority is still fairly sizeable, has evidence from the Quran and Sunnah, and has people from the Salaf who followed that very same opinion.

The people who say music is halal don't fit any of that criteria.

format_quote Originally Posted by xboxisdead

Here is another woman writing an article about marriage issue https://www.cnn.com/2015/04/07/opini...als/index.html

Ok, now you're getting desperate.
You're looking for losers who admittedly have failed in their lives and unscrupulously lift'em up and declare them the symbols and absolute proof the western society has failed.
Do you have andy shame left ?
Why getting that low ?
What happened with serious and honest research ?
Your end goal is pretty clear, there is no doubt about it
You hate the west. You want the west to fail. You need to find proof the west is failing.
It's becoming a sickness now but you can't stop it. It's eating you up from the inside.
You're turning into an infectious blob that keeps rolling and infecting everything in its way.
The strange thing is that you live in a western country, don't you ?
Taking advantage of all the freedom and good standard of living provided by your enemy, the mighty west.
I never understood people like the Boston Marathon bombers.Living in the west, having a good life, making good money but suddenly something goes wrong.
All of a sudden the dark side of Islam takes their souls away. Now the whole point of their lives is to fight against their enemy, the enemy who is giving them everything they need. The enemy who wants to be their friend and is extending a friendly hand to them.

And you have the audacity to claim the west is going bad.
Wouldn't be much easier to put all your wasted efforts in doing good to society.Isn't it time to stop hating and make a real contribution.
Why don't you train extremists to become good Muslims ?
I'm pretty sure Allah would appreciate that much better than what you're doing now.
You can fool me but you cannot fool Allah and you know it.

format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran

Like the US........on a serious note religion isn't going anywhere its actually rising and will continue to do so whilst atheism does not hold for long unless you regard Bolshevik Russia and China as great examples of lack of religions (although Orthodox Christianity is back in Russia). The west has a specific history with western Christianity which led to the destruction of christian society thanks to the reformation and enlightenment right into modernity. The Muslims have a very different history of colonialism and the making of new states based on colonial lines, dictators and absolute monarchist would use harsh power to keep there new found nation states alive given by there masters.- of course Muslims share a similar history to most places including china and south america.

The Kamalist and now the Assads (secularist) are on shaky grounds once again. So we'll see what happens but one thing is for certain liberalism isn't exactly the answer especially looking at Trump, Brexit and the rise of the far right in Europe - its also on shaky grounds.

Not as sure as you are about that. For one, the place where you find the most religious Christian fundamentalists is in the impoverished ares including the poorer states and what they call the "inner-city". In those places, you'll find some church in every corner preaching hellfire and brimstone. As states get wealthier and neighborhoods improve, you'll maybe have a Catholic or Presbyterian/Lutheran church somewhere near the park and he people there go on the occasional Sunday.

In Saudi Arabia, interestingly enough, it seems that the religious groups there are losing their influence because the younger people there are becoming better educated and more sophisticated. Less and less you're finding the kind of people that are comfortable with chopping off the heads of "blasphemers" and asserting that there are djinns and witches in their midst. Unless fundamentalist religious governments find a way to block the internet, they're going to find it pretty hard to explain to younger people how a 13th century book can have any relevance in this day and age.

If you want to find a close to ideal society, you should visit Switzerland. I lived there for some years. Very low crime, high level of civic responsibility by the citizens, great economy, and one of the lowest corruption rates in the world. And yet they're not a religious society nor do they refer to religion to justify their laws.

format_quote Originally Posted by fschmidt

It's too bad that this thread is just a debate between fundamentalist atheists and fundamentalist muslims. There is a real question here that was raised at the last jumah talk at my mosque. The point of the talk was that God grants success on earth to whatever culture has the highest morals regardless of their religion, and that because Muslims currently have low morals, they do not have success. The potential for high morals and success clearly exists in Islam, but some creative thinking is needed to figure out how to get there. But there seems to be little effort in this direction right now.

I like your post and your partial answer to the main question.
You said "Muslims currently have low morals", and that's why "they do not have success".
We still don't know why this is happening although many have suggested is because they don't practice Islam as they should.
The question is: can Islam be practiced today following every single rule and penalty established in the Quran and Hadith ?
No one dares to do it. Why? There has to be a reason for it, and a very good reason I must say.

By the way I don't consider myself a Fundamentalist Atheist but I'm not sure what that means. I'm more like a Roman Catholic who doesn't believe in god.

format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann

Or should I have asked: What's wrong with Muslims? or What's wrong with people living in Muslim Countries?
Let me explain.
I've been reading a lot of Islamic culture and history and things don't add up.Islam is a religion that also provides a set of rules on how to live your entire life. Everything is instructed by god (Allah) and your prophet so you should have the perfect instructions on how to succeed, live in harmony and peacefully.
Instead, I cannot find a single fully developed Muslim country in the world. Why?
The more I read about specific countries the more I start to discover all the problems that affect them.
Some common culprits are:
Intolerance with other religions or cultures (hate, dislike, confrontations, wars).
Underdevelopment (poverty is usually very high on most Muslim countries)
Peace is not the best quality of most Muslim countries (confrontations with other Muslims as well as with others)
Can anyone explain it to me?
Money and resources are not the only problem since Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, Turkey and others seem to have the resources but somehow cannot fully develop.
I'd like to see how a perfect and peaceful (secure and tolerant) Muslim Country would look like.

format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann

The question is: can Islam be practiced today following every single rule and penalty established in the Quran and Hadith ?
No one dares to do it. Why? There has to be a reason for it, and a very good reason I must say.

That's because any country that tries to implement Islam fully gets invaded and forcibly removed from power by using false flag operations as pretext. You have plenty of examples from the recent history.

If you want to look at ideal Muslim society, read the lives of Sahabah, the companions of Prophet Muhammad . They were the most civilized people who ever lived on earth.

In Islam, we do not measure development with material wealth. The Sahabah did not have enough to feed themselves but if you look at their socio-economic relations with the people, you will not find any better match. They were the best in serving their Lord as well as in dealing with fellow beings.

In Islam, success is defined as being saved from hell fire and being admitted to Paradise. If Allah is pleased with us, then nothing matters. Whatever situation we are placed in, we simply have to fulfill what Allah wants from us.

Material development in this world, for Muslims, is simply a by-product of practicing Islam. It is not the end-goal.


See this Hadith and you will understand what happens when Islam is fully established,

Narrated `Adi bin Hatim :

While I was in the city of the Prophet, a man came and complained to him (the Prophet, ) of destitution and poverty. Then another man came and complained of robbery (by highwaymen).
The Prophet said, "Adi! Have you been to Al-Hira?" I said, "I haven't been to it, but I was informed about it." He said, "If you should live for a long time, you will certainly see that a lady in a Howdah traveling from Al-Hira will (safely reach Mecca and) perform the Tawaf of the Ka`ba, fearing none but Allah."
I said to myself, "What will happen to the robbers of the tribe of Tai who have spread evil through out the country?" The Prophet (ﷺ) further said. "If you should live long, the treasures of Khosrau will be opened (and taken as spoils)." I asked, "You mean Khosrau, son of Hurmuz?" He said, "Khosrau, son of Hurmuz; and if you should live long, you will see that one will carry a handful of gold or silver and go out looking for a person to accept it from him, but will find none to accept it from him. And any of you, when meeting Allah, will meet Him without needing an interpreter between him and Allah to interpret for him, and Allah will say to him: 'Didn't I send a messenger to teach you?' He will say: 'Yes.' Allah will say: 'Didn't I give you wealth and do you favors?' He will say: 'Yes.' Then he will look to his right and see nothing but Hell, and look to his left and see nothing but Hell."
`Adi further said: I heard the Prophet (ﷺ) saying, "Save yourself from the (Hell) Fire even with half a date (to be given in charity) and if you do not find a half date, then with a good pleasant word."
`Adi added: (later on) I saw a lady in a Howdah traveling from Al-Hira till she performed the Tawaf of the Ka`ba, fearing none but Allah. And I was one of those who opened (conquered) the treasures of Khosrau, son of Hurmuz. If you should live long, you will see what the Prophet (ﷺ) Abu-l-Qasim had said: 'A person will come out with a handful. of gold...etc. [Bukhari]


Safety, security, peace, wealth, everything is promised if we establish Islam completely, in our lives as well as in the whole society.

format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran

Your argument has no bases - you first tried to play the majority card - that didnt work now your once again playing the same card - your a salafi you dont have majority opinion, its why you backtracked when Ibn Taymiyya (ra) was mentioned.



Its well known that many scholars regard music has haram and a minority regard it permissible.




Next time dont give fatwas categorically and I wont.

What do you mean it "didn't work"? It did and does work. I never backtracked, I said that following a minority opinion is only understandable under certain conditions, none of which apply to the opinion that music is halal.

I'm yet to find a single Salafi viewpoint that isn't based on teachings of the Salaf, doesn't come from the Quran or Sunnah, or isn't believed by a significant number of the fuqaha. I can't say the same for your precious little Sufi bid'ah though. Praying to graves, the Mawlid, shrines, etc, many of your teachings are haram and some of them are shirk so let's not make this a Salafi-Sufi discussion.

No, it's not well known, what is well known is that pretty much all the fuquha view/viewed music as haram, the few that didn't/don't are nowhere near a sizeable minority unlike with other issues.

I'll do whatever I please.

format_quote Originally Posted by AabiruSabeel

The question is: can Islam be practiced today following every single rule and penalty established in the Quran and Hadith ?
No one dares to do it. Why? There has to be a reason for it, and a very good reason I must say.
That's because any country that tries to implement Islam fully gets invaded and forcibly removed from power by using false flag operations as pretext.

Excuse my ignorance but can someone list the countries that were trying to implement Islam fully and were invaded ?

format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann

We don't need to be too precise here. In general I would consider a country fully developed when certain achievements have been met:
The infrastructure covers most of the country. That means most ot the country is covered with paved roads. Most houses are constructed to a certain standard. Most houses have access to water, electricity and sewer system.
Education is available to most people.
There is an adequate coverage of health insurance for the population.
Most people earn enough money to stay above the poverty line.
The poverty line is one of the most telling indicators that a country has achieved full development.
Qatar is a very rich country but 60 % of the population are poor immigrant workers, that is not a fully developed country to me.
On the other hand most European countries are fully developed, you won't find shanty towns easily on them.
As you said, the standard of living can change and in the near future the indicators to determine what is a fully developed country might change but we deal with the future when the future comes.

On the contrary, precision is of the utmost importance. Your entire OP is premised on the notion of there not being a single "fully developed" Islamic country. Which makes it eminently relevant whether "fully developed" is a relevant concept in the first place, or just something you arbitrarily made up to support a preconceived notion.

As for Qatar specifically, it is entirely capable of decently housing every single one of those migrant workers. Qatar not doing so has nothing to do with ability and everything to do with choice not to do so, because there's plenty of poor people in the world who will keep on coming nevertheless. Thus, possibly an indicator of the morality of the government (which may or may not reflect on wider society), but nothing that has any implication for ability to develop.

Do you know what the poverty line is? It's not absolute, it's relative to the overall prosperity of the country. One often-used definition is half the median income. Thus, fraction of population below the poverty line has nothing to do with overall prosperity and everything to do with income distribution. Availability of healthcare and education are pretty much the same, mainly dependent on income distribution rather than overall prosperity (since those commodities are mainly produced by well-paid professionals and thus their price proportional to what counts as an upper middle class salary in the country).

Sure, you may define development in such a way as you please, but the more it's based on your subjective opinion on what's a good society, the less relevant it is for a general discussion.