Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World

I've never equated the Chechen conflict with the issue of terrorism, or at least I didn't before the Beslan incident. Beslan aside, I think those who even know what Chechnya is understand that the Chechens suffered brutally under the Russians. I don't know much about this guy, so I'm not going to join in the hero worship, but there is alot of sympathy out there for the Chechen cause. This is one of the sticking points that popped up between President Bush and President Putin. Putin wanted Bush to publicly equate the Chechen conflict with the phenomenon of international terrorism, and Bush didn't do so. At least not until the Beslan massacre.

Salam Keltoi

Its not hero-worship, its just recognising what he has done.

Beslan was a mistake - even though they didnt expect any children to die it was still a very bad move. He did regret the deaths of the children and offered to either go on trial when the war was over or hand himself over immediately to the Russians if they stopped the war.
Also after Beslan he changed his tactics and went back to military methods after being convinced by the Chechen president.

I should probably look it up myself, but you seem to know alot about the Chechen conflict. What is the situation at the present time?

Salam

Now it isnt a Russian-Chechen war - it has become a Russian-North Caucaus war.

Over the last few years new fronts had been established as people from places like Dagestan, Ingushetia. Ossetia etc. joined Chechen fighters in resisting the criminal Russians.

Now fighters operate across the whole North Caucaus making it a lot more difficult for Russia.

Russians say they are winning because they have killed alot of the main leaders like Maskhadov, Sadullayev and especially Basayev - but the actions on the ground contradict their claim.

format_quote Originally Posted by duskiness

Hi Chechnya,
I whole heartedly support Chechnya. I'm Polish, and as many, many of my compatriots I feel "connected" to that fight. in our capitol one of the biggest roundabouts is named after Dudajev.

But i disagree with what you wrote. Buddenyvosk was wrong. Taking whole hospital, more than 1500 people (women, children and infants among them) hostage is wrong.
And i feel that calling someone who ordered it and organized a "hero" is wrong.

Please don't say than it was done because Russians commit even worst crimes in Caucasus. I would agree that may be true. But it still doesn't make action in Buddenyvosk right or Basajev a hero

This is how I felt too. I know that the Russians have been very brutal and savage in their actions, but what happened in Beslan, the theater, etc have done nothing but aid Moscow in convincing the world it is a terrorist enemy they face, regardless of the fact their terrorism has been just as brutal against the civilians in Chechnya.

Hi Chechnya,
I whole heartedly support Chechnya. I'm Polish, and as many, many of my compatriots I feel "connected" to that fight. in our capitol one of the biggest roundabouts is named after Dudajev.

But i disagree with what you wrote. Buddenyvosk was wrong. Taking whole hospital, more than 1500 people (women, children and infants among them) hostage is wrong.
And i feel that calling someone who ordered it and organized a "hero" is wrong.

Please don't say than it was done because Russians commit even worst crimes in Caucasus. I would agree that may be true. But it still doesn't make action in Buddenyvosk right or Basajev a hero

Salam Duskiness

Buddenyvosk is a complicated matter - but if i were forced to give an answer i would say it had to happen.
Not because i wanted Russian civilians to die (most of whom were killed by the russians) but because Buddenyvosk led to a ceasefire and was the begininning of the end of the war.

As you probably know Shamil Basayev didnt plan to take a hospital in Buddenyvosk - their plan was to reach the kremlin and atack the people who started the genocidal war and go down fighting in Moscow. They only ended up in Buddenyvosk when they got caught by Russian police.

Like it or not, Buddenyosk saved thousands and thousads of Chechen lives.

It was because of the success of saving Chechen lives in Buddenyvosk that Basayev tried Beslan. It was a very very bad move and i was happy that he offered to pay the price and go on trial.

But Buddenyosk isnt why he is a hero - its because of he's outstanding military ability which has defeated the Russians before. It was Shamil Baayev that led the brilliant counter-attack on Grzony, defeating the Russians and forcing them out.
Even the American military admires him - one American Major said it was Basayev who had forced Russia to its knees and attributed the Chechen success to his leaderhip - he compared him to William Wallace

Why only Christians responding to Chechnya's article?

Salam Bro

I think Chechnya is not so popular in the Muslim world after the Chechens condemned Hamas for stabbing them in the back.

Even though it was Hamas who did the back-stabbing, ost Muslims still seem support them - at the expense of Chechnya - and take no notice of their evil actions.

I think sub-conciously (sp?) many maybe think an Arab is more important than a non-Arab - thats the only reason i can think of.

Now the whole Caucasus region against Russia? Why? I thought Ossetian are Christians... why they want to go against Russia? How about Tatars and Bashkirs.. are they supporting Chechens too?

Tatars arent. Its only the countries directly linked to Chechna like Dagestan, Ingushetia etc.
Ossetia is mainly Christian but there are still Muslims their who have now joined the fight. Only a few weeks ago the Ossetian Jamaat said it would start targeting Russian military helicopters and a couple of days later it shot down a helicopter and killed about 15 soldiers.

because it's not a conflict between religions but between nations.

I think it is religious now - especially as the Christian authorities give blessings to Russian soldiers before they go and kill and rape in Chechnya.
Chechen fighters are motivated by religion too as you can see in their statements and slogans.
But essentially you are right - this isnt Muslims vs Christian , its Russia vs North Caucaus.

That's utilitarian way of thinking. And i disagree with it. Fact that this action brought (for a moment!) peace to Chechnya, fact that killing those people save other lives, doesn't still make it anything good, moral, acceptable or something, for which i would think high of Basayev. I think, that it was the moment, when he started his way, that in the end leaded to Beslan. (it seems you have similar opinion)

If you ask the opinion of the western journalists who covered the war or Chechens themselves - they will all tell you Buddenyvosk was the beginning of the end of the war.
Without the ceasefire Basayev won from Buddenyvosk, they would never have been able to carry out the counter-atack on Grozny and the war wouldnt have ended.

Maybe Buddenyvosk turned out to be the lesser of two evils.

Needless to say, every action like Buddenyvosk is because of this ongoing brutal war and every thing comes back to the Russian treatment of Chechens.

For example all of the women in the Nord-orst hostage-taking had either had their family members killed or had been raped - if that hadnt happened they wouldnt have come to Moscow.

Even Shamil basayev always offered to observe international law if russians did the same - why didnt the russians take him up on his offer?

Does outstanding military abilities make someone a hero? Hero is -as i see it- some who "fought a good fight".

For what he has done -especially in ending the first war he will always be a hero - albeit a flawed one.

Those Russian soldier are fighting to keep Moscow power in the land where no one wants it. There is little place for religion there...


Ps: if I'm not too nosy - are you coming form there?

No im not from their but i know brothers that are.

what is russia's real motive in chechnya - oil? strategic location?

Oil is one of the reasons. Russias imperial ambitions is another. Russians are still living in the past where they think they are an empire and have th right to rule over others.

Maybe because Russia is seen as an ally to the Muslim world as they need someone to protect them from America. Maybe that's why Putin attend OIC summit in KL as an observer few years ago....

Russia murders and rapes Muslims almost daily - until the backward Arabs get that into their head, they wont realise that Russia is a big enemy of Muslims.

Russia kills more Muslims, rapes more Muslims, tortures more Muslims than America - i dont understand how Arabs can claim to have Russia as an ally.

Hamas and all the Arab nationalists need to decide between - Arab nationalism and Islamic brotherhood.

How about Russia vs Georgia?

I cant imagine such a conflict taking place. Georgia is very pro-western so many western nations would see to it that there isnt a full blown conflict.

If there was one, it would weaken Russia even more as they would have to spread their army across an even bigger space - though it wouldnt be so good for the Georgian people.

I would never under any circumstances call the man responsible for Beslan a "hero", regardless of his motives.

If EVERYTHING else were the same, but he was a non-Muslim and the children slaughtered were Muslims, I doubt anyone on this board would think of him as one either.