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  1. #1
    Chechnya's Avatar
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    Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World

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    Propaganda is a powerful tool and a tool that Russia likes to employ often. This tool has been well used in the Chechen conflict and especially well used again one man in particular - Shamil Basayev.



    Terrorist, bandit, ******st, criminal - Russia has many words for those who oppose its imperial ambitions. However as meaningless as these words are when coming from professional liars, there are many who fall for them - mainly due to their own ignorance and preconceived prejudices and beliefs.



    If one looks at Shamil Basayev's life, it is a far cry from the inane uttering of the Russian media.



    In 1994 Commander Shamil commanded his battalion in the valiant defence of Grozny. Through the leadership of Aslan Maskhadov and Shamil Basayev the Mujahideen were able to kill over 2000 Russian soldiers as they defended Grozny.



    Following the withdrawal from Grozny Commander Shamil continued to lead the Mujahideen in battles against Russian forces across Chechnya. His most famous operation came in 1995 in the quiet town of Buddenyvosk. Having seen their people being massacred, being raped and tortured - Shamil led a desperate band of men into Russia in a suicidal bid to stop the killing.



    Buddenyvosk turned out to be a major incident in the war. In fact many journalists who covered the war (like Calotta Gall) called Buddenyvosk the "turning point in the war". Buddenyvosk forced Russians to withdraw from many Chechen towns and villages and to try negotiations for a certain period of time.



    The Chechen Mujahideen used this time to re-infiltrate villages that were once evacuated, to build up their forces and stockpile weapons. They organised themselves under the central command of General Aslan Maskhadov and when the hostilities resumed the Mujahideen had used the time - that Shamil had bought them through his Buddenyvosk operation - to devastating effect.



    In August 1996 the Mujahideen showed their military skill and ability once more in one of the most shocking operations of recent military history.



    Over 1500 Mujahideen led by Commander Shamil attacked Grozny from three sides. Within days they had overrun much of the city, destroying Russian checkpoints, surrounding Russian barracks and forcing the Russians from out of the city.



    It was the decisive operation of the first war. The Russian army were defeated and forced to withdraw.



    Unable to defeat the Chechen Mujahideen and Commander Shamil militarily, the Russians started the propaganda campaign - a campaign that much of the western world has accepted.

    However in the Caucaus and Islamic worlds such propaganda campaigns have no effect. Most people recognise that when the whole world turned away from the Chechen people - leaving them to be massacred, raped and tortured - men like Shamil Basayev stood up to stop the tyranny.



    To the west and Russia he may always be "Terrorist no.1" but to the Islamic peoples he will go down in history as the Commander who defeated the might of the Russian army and stopped the war. He will be remembered as someone who never backed down and fought and died like a warrior.

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    Keltoi's Avatar
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    Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World

    I've never equated the Chechen conflict with the issue of terrorism, or at least I didn't before the Beslan incident. Beslan aside, I think those who even know what Chechnya is understand that the Chechens suffered brutally under the Russians. I don't know much about this guy, so I'm not going to join in the hero worship, but there is alot of sympathy out there for the Chechen cause. This is one of the sticking points that popped up between President Bush and President Putin. Putin wanted Bush to publicly equate the Chechen conflict with the phenomenon of international terrorism, and Bush didn't do so. At least not until the Beslan massacre.

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    Chechnya's Avatar
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    Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World

    Salam Keltoi

    Its not hero-worship, its just recognising what he has done.

    Beslan was a mistake - even though they didnt expect any children to die it was still a very bad move. He did regret the deaths of the children and offered to either go on trial when the war was over or hand himself over immediately to the Russians if they stopped the war.
    Also after Beslan he changed his tactics and went back to military methods after being convinced by the Chechen president.

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    Keltoi's Avatar
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    Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World

    I should probably look it up myself, but you seem to know alot about the Chechen conflict. What is the situation at the present time?

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    Chechnya's Avatar
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    Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World

    Salam

    Now it isnt a Russian-Chechen war - it has become a Russian-North Caucaus war.

    Over the last few years new fronts had been established as people from places like Dagestan, Ingushetia. Ossetia etc. joined Chechen fighters in resisting the criminal Russians.

    Now fighters operate across the whole North Caucaus making it a lot more difficult for Russia.

    Russians say they are winning because they have killed alot of the main leaders like Maskhadov, Sadullayev and especially Basayev - but the actions on the ground contradict their claim.

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    Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World

    Hi Chechnya,
    I whole heartedly support Chechnya. I'm Polish, and as many, many of my compatriots I feel "connected" to that fight. in our capitol one of the biggest roundabouts is named after Dudajev.

    But i disagree with what you wrote. Buddenyvosk was wrong. Taking whole hospital, more than 1500 people (women, children and infants among them) hostage is wrong.
    And i feel that calling someone who ordered it and organized a "hero" is wrong.

    Please don't say than it was done because Russians commit even worst crimes in Caucasus. I would agree that may be true. But it still doesn't make action in Buddenyvosk right or Basajev a hero
    Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World

    The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned.

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    Keltoi's Avatar
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    Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World

    Quote Originally Posted by duskiness View Post
    Hi Chechnya,
    I whole heartedly support Chechnya. I'm Polish, and as many, many of my compatriots I feel "connected" to that fight. in our capitol one of the biggest roundabouts is named after Dudajev.

    But i disagree with what you wrote. Buddenyvosk was wrong. Taking whole hospital, more than 1500 people (women, children and infants among them) hostage is wrong.
    And i feel that calling someone who ordered it and organized a "hero" is wrong.

    Please don't say than it was done because Russians commit even worst crimes in Caucasus. I would agree that may be true. But it still doesn't make action in Buddenyvosk right or Basajev a hero

    This is how I felt too. I know that the Russians have been very brutal and savage in their actions, but what happened in Beslan, the theater, etc have done nothing but aid Moscow in convincing the world it is a terrorist enemy they face, regardless of the fact their terrorism has been just as brutal against the civilians in Chechnya.

  10. #8
    Chechnya's Avatar
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    Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World

    Hi Chechnya,
    I whole heartedly support Chechnya. I'm Polish, and as many, many of my compatriots I feel "connected" to that fight. in our capitol one of the biggest roundabouts is named after Dudajev.

    But i disagree with what you wrote. Buddenyvosk was wrong. Taking whole hospital, more than 1500 people (women, children and infants among them) hostage is wrong.
    And i feel that calling someone who ordered it and organized a "hero" is wrong.

    Please don't say than it was done because Russians commit even worst crimes in Caucasus. I would agree that may be true. But it still doesn't make action in Buddenyvosk right or Basajev a hero
    Salam Duskiness

    Buddenyvosk is a complicated matter - but if i were forced to give an answer i would say it had to happen.
    Not because i wanted Russian civilians to die (most of whom were killed by the russians) but because Buddenyvosk led to a ceasefire and was the begininning of the end of the war.

    As you probably know Shamil Basayev didnt plan to take a hospital in Buddenyvosk - their plan was to reach the kremlin and atack the people who started the genocidal war and go down fighting in Moscow. They only ended up in Buddenyvosk when they got caught by Russian police.

    Like it or not, Buddenyosk saved thousands and thousads of Chechen lives.

    It was because of the success of saving Chechen lives in Buddenyvosk that Basayev tried Beslan. It was a very very bad move and i was happy that he offered to pay the price and go on trial.

    But Buddenyosk isnt why he is a hero - its because of he's outstanding military ability which has defeated the Russians before. It was Shamil Baayev that led the brilliant counter-attack on Grzony, defeating the Russians and forcing them out.
    Even the American military admires him - one American Major said it was Basayev who had forced Russia to its knees and attributed the Chechen success to his leaderhip - he compared him to William Wallace

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    Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World

    Why only Christians responding to Chechnya's article?

    Now the whole Caucasus region against Russia? Why? I thought Ossetian are Christians... why they want to go against Russia? How about Tatars and Bashkirs.. are they supporting Chechens too?

    I've heard that now it's between Russia vs. Georgia, as Russia wants South Ossetia incorporated into North Ossetia.
    Last edited by north_malaysian; 11-14-2006 at 03:34 AM.
    Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World

    Assalamualaykum... I am back!!

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    Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World

    Quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian View Post
    Why only Christians responding to Chechnya's article?
    why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian View Post
    Now the whole Caucasus region against Russia? Why? I thought Ossetian are Christians...
    because it's not a conflict between religions but between nations.
    Last edited by duskiness; 11-14-2006 at 10:47 AM.
    Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World

    The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned.

  14. #11
    Chechnya's Avatar
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    Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World

    Why only Christians responding to Chechnya's article?
    Salam Bro

    I think Chechnya is not so popular in the Muslim world after the Chechens condemned Hamas for stabbing them in the back.

    Even though it was Hamas who did the back-stabbing, ost Muslims still seem support them - at the expense of Chechnya - and take no notice of their evil actions.

    I think sub-conciously (sp?) many maybe think an Arab is more important than a non-Arab - thats the only reason i can think of.

    Now the whole Caucasus region against Russia? Why? I thought Ossetian are Christians... why they want to go against Russia? How about Tatars and Bashkirs.. are they supporting Chechens too?
    Tatars arent. Its only the countries directly linked to Chechna like Dagestan, Ingushetia etc.
    Ossetia is mainly Christian but there are still Muslims their who have now joined the fight. Only a few weeks ago the Ossetian Jamaat said it would start targeting Russian military helicopters and a couple of days later it shot down a helicopter and killed about 15 soldiers.

    because it's not a conflict between religions but between nations.

    I think it is religious now - especially as the Christian authorities give blessings to Russian soldiers before they go and kill and rape in Chechnya.
    Chechen fighters are motivated by religion too as you can see in their statements and slogans.
    But essentially you are right - this isnt Muslims vs Christian , its Russia vs North Caucaus.

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    duskiness's Avatar
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    Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World

    Salam/ Peace Chechnya

    Quote Originally Posted by Chechnya View Post
    Buddenyvosk is a complicated matter - but if i were forced to give an answer i would say it had to happen.
    Not because i wanted Russian civilians to die (most of whom were killed by the russians) but because Buddenyvosk led to a ceasefire and was the begininning of the end of the war.

    As you probably know Shamil Basayev didnt plan to take a hospital in Buddenyvosk - their plan was to reach the kremlin and atack the people who started the genocidal war and go down fighting in Moscow. They only ended up in Buddenyvosk when they got caught by Russian police.

    Like it or not, Buddenyosk saved thousands and thousads of Chechen lives.

    It was because of the success of saving Chechen lives in Buddenyvosk that Basayev tried Beslan. It was a very very bad move and i was happy that he offered to pay the price and go on trial.
    That's utilitarian way of thinking. And i disagree with it. Fact that this action brought (for a moment!) peace to Chechnya, fact that killing those people save other lives, doesn't still make it anything good, moral, acceptable or something, for which i would think high of Basayev. I think, that it was the moment, when he started his way, that in the end leaded to Beslan. (it seems you have similar opinion)

    But Buddenyosk isnt why he is a hero - its because of he's outstanding military ability which has defeated the Russians before. It was Shamil Baayev that led the brilliant counter-attack on Grzony, defeating the Russians and forcing them out.
    Even the American military admires him - one American Major said it was Basayev who had forced Russia to its knees and attributed the Chechen success to his leaderhip - he compared him to William Wallace
    Does outstanding military abilities make someone a hero? Hero is -as i see it- some who "fought a good fight".

    I think it is religious now - especially as the Christian authorities give blessings to Russian soldiers before they go and kill and rape in Chechnya.
    Chechen fighters are motivated by religion too as you can see in their statements and slogans.
    But essentially you are right - this isnt Muslims vs Christian , its Russia vs North Caucaus.
    Those Russian soldier are fighting to keep Moscow power in the land where no one wants it. There is little place for religion there...


    Ps: if I'm not too nosy - are you coming form there?
    Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World

    The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned.

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    Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World

    what is russia's real motive in chechnya - oil? strategic location?
    Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World

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    Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World

    Quote Originally Posted by snakelegs View Post
    what is russia's real motive in chechnya - oil? strategic location?
    They being haunted from the old memories of USSR super power-its all about Prestige.They cannot stand to lose more territories after the fallen of Soviet Union.

    Maybe bro Chechnya have the better answer
    Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World

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    Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World

    but the problem with russians and chechnya predates the collapse of the soviet union, doesn't it?
    i think what you say is partially true but that it is more complex.
    if i remember right what i've read, the whole population of chechnya was exiled during WW2 because the russians didn't trust them.
    Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World

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  20. #16
    Chechnya's Avatar
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    Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World

    That's utilitarian way of thinking. And i disagree with it. Fact that this action brought (for a moment!) peace to Chechnya, fact that killing those people save other lives, doesn't still make it anything good, moral, acceptable or something, for which i would think high of Basayev. I think, that it was the moment, when he started his way, that in the end leaded to Beslan. (it seems you have similar opinion)
    If you ask the opinion of the western journalists who covered the war or Chechens themselves - they will all tell you Buddenyvosk was the beginning of the end of the war.
    Without the ceasefire Basayev won from Buddenyvosk, they would never have been able to carry out the counter-atack on Grozny and the war wouldnt have ended.

    Maybe Buddenyvosk turned out to be the lesser of two evils.

    Needless to say, every action like Buddenyvosk is because of this ongoing brutal war and every thing comes back to the Russian treatment of Chechens.

    For example all of the women in the Nord-orst hostage-taking had either had their family members killed or had been raped - if that hadnt happened they wouldnt have come to Moscow.

    Even Shamil basayev always offered to observe international law if russians did the same - why didnt the russians take him up on his offer?

    Does outstanding military abilities make someone a hero? Hero is -as i see it- some who "fought a good fight".
    For what he has done -especially in ending the first war he will always be a hero - albeit a flawed one.


    Those Russian soldier are fighting to keep Moscow power in the land where no one wants it. There is little place for religion there...


    Ps: if I'm not too nosy - are you coming form there?
    No im not from their but i know brothers that are.

    what is russia's real motive in chechnya - oil? strategic location?

    Oil is one of the reasons. Russias imperial ambitions is another. Russians are still living in the past where they think they are an empire and have th right to rule over others.

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    Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World

    Quote Originally Posted by Chechnya View Post
    Salam Bro

    I think Chechnya is not so popular in the Muslim world
    Maybe because Russia is seen as an ally to the Muslim world as they need someone to protect them from America. Maybe that's why Putin attend OIC summit in KL as an observer few years ago....

    Quote Originally Posted by Chechnya View Post
    Tatars arent. Its only the countries directly linked to Chechna like Dagestan, Ingushetia etc.
    No wonder that the Tatar students in Malaysia proudly call themselves Russians. While the Chechen students are not friendly with the Tatars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chechnya View Post

    it's Russia vs North Caucaus.
    How about Russia vs Georgia?
    Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World

    Assalamualaykum... I am back!!

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    Chechnya's Avatar
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    Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World

    Maybe because Russia is seen as an ally to the Muslim world as they need someone to protect them from America. Maybe that's why Putin attend OIC summit in KL as an observer few years ago....
    Russia murders and rapes Muslims almost daily - until the backward Arabs get that into their head, they wont realise that Russia is a big enemy of Muslims.

    Russia kills more Muslims, rapes more Muslims, tortures more Muslims than America - i dont understand how Arabs can claim to have Russia as an ally.

    Hamas and all the Arab nationalists need to decide between - Arab nationalism and Islamic brotherhood.



    How about Russia vs Georgia?
    I cant imagine such a conflict taking place. Georgia is very pro-western so many western nations would see to it that there isnt a full blown conflict.

    If there was one, it would weaken Russia even more as they would have to spread their army across an even bigger space - though it wouldnt be so good for the Georgian people.

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    Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World

    I would never under any circumstances call the man responsible for Beslan a "hero", regardless of his motives.

    If EVERYTHING else were the same, but he was a non-Muslim and the children slaughtered were Muslims, I doubt anyone on this board would think of him as one either.

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    Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World

    Great guy he is...but isn't it true he has an obsession with Che Gueverra


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