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The Islamic veil across Europe

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    The Islamic veil across Europe

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    Countries across the continent have wrestled with an issue that takes in religious freedom, female equality, secular traditions and even fears of terrorism.

    FRANCE

    A ban on Muslim headscarves and other "conspicuous" religious symbols at state schools was introduced in 2004.
    The measure received overwhelming political and public support in a country where the separation of state and religion is enshrined in law.
    However, headscarves can be worn in Muslim schools, and at university level, where the law on religious signs does not apply.

    TURKEY

    For the past 80 years Turks have lived in a secular state founded by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, who rejected headscarves as backward-looking in his campaign to secularise Turkish society.
    Even so, it is estimated that as many as 65% of Turkish women cover their heads with a scarf.
    Nonetheless, scarves are banned in civic spaces, including schools, universities - state or private - and official buildings.
    In November 2005 the European Court of Human Rights ruled the ban was legitimate.

    BRITAIN

    There is no ban on Islamic dress in the UK.
    However, schools are allowed to forge their own dress code.
    The courts were forced to rule when a schoolgirl complained that her school sent her home for wearing a jilbab, which covers the entire body, except for hands, feet, face, and head.
    The courts said the school made sufficient concessions by allowing the Islamic trousers and tunic.

    GERMANY

    In September 2003 the federal Constitutional Court ruled in favour of a teacher who wanted to wear an Islamic scarf to school.
    However, it said states could change their laws locally if they wanted to.
    At least four German states have gone on to ban teachers from wearing headscarves and in the state of Hesse the ban applies to all civil servants.

    RUSSIA

    Russia's Supreme Court has overturned a 1997 interior ministry ruling which forbade women from wearing headscarves in passport photos.

    ITALY

    In September 2004 local politicians in the north of Italy resurrected old laws against the wearing of masks, to ban women from wearing the all-over burqa.
    In July 05 the Italian parliament approved anti-terrorist laws which make hiding one's features from the public - including through wearing the burqa - an offence.
    The government has said it will put forward draft new legislation to ban the Islamic veil that covers the face.

    BELGIUM

    The city of Maaseik, on the Dutch border, has banned the niqab, which covers the whole body except for the eyes.

    NETHERLANDS

    The Dutch cabinet has backed a proposal by the country's immigration minister to ban Muslim women from wearing the burqa in public places.
    The cabinet said burqas disturb public order, citizens and safety.
    Critics of the proposed ban say it would violate civil rights.
    An estimated 5% of people living in the Netherlands are Muslims. But there are just a few dozen women in the Netherlands who choose to wear the burqa, a traditional Islamic form of dress.

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    The Islamic veil across Europe

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    Re: The Islamic veil across Europe

    As I've said before in other threads, I have no problem in principle with muslim head coverings. My only exception is that they should not be allowed to use their religion to enable them to obscure their features where others are not permitted to do so. Anywhere you can wear the covering that obscures the face, I should be allowed to wear a ski mask.
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    Re: The Islamic veil across Europe

    format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis View Post
    Anywhere you can wear the covering that obscures the face, I should be allowed to wear a ski mask.
    Is your intention the same as the women who wear the covering? most likely not...the covering which obscures the face is neither a fashion statement nor an attempt to decieve..so you cant really compare it to soemone wearing a ski mask..
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    Re: The Islamic veil across Europe

    Pygoscelis:

    1) The Bible also asks Women to wear veils as in
    Islam {I Corinthians 11:3-10} do it???

    1 Cor. ch. x.: — “And let us not pollute ourselves with fornication, as some of them were polluted, and fell in one day to the number of twenty -three thousand.” Here is a blunder, for it is written “twenty-four thousand.”—Num. 25.

    The arguement starts here, we say you do what you want to and leave us alone, we don't "criticize" you to loitering on beaches in half nude, and you leave out ladies alone.

    You own Bible say what I quoted above - Do you have anything to say else, shouldn't you been doing what is said to you???
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    Re: The Islamic veil across Europe

    format_quote Originally Posted by chand View Post
    Is your intention the same as the women who wear the covering? most likely not...the covering which obscures the face is neither a fashion statement nor an attempt to decieve..so you cant really compare it to soemone wearing a ski mask..
    True. I've heard that ski mask argument too many times before.
    Last edited by jzcasejz; 08-24-2007 at 04:10 PM.
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    Re: The Islamic veil across Europe

    format_quote Originally Posted by jzcasejz View Post
    True. I've heard that ski mask argument too many times before.
    Ive heard the my intentions/values/religion/insertvariation is so special and more important than yours I have to have special rights to break the rules arguement too many times.
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    Re: The Islamic veil across Europe

    How I Came to Love the Veil

    I used to look at veiled women as quiet, oppressed creatures -- until I was captured by the Taliban.

    They called me a "bad" woman but let me go after I promised to read the Koran and study Islam. (Frankly, I'm not sure who was happier when I was freed -- they or I.)

    Back home in London, I kept my word about studying Islam -- and was amazed by what I discovered. I'd been expecting Koran chapters on how to beat your wife and oppress your daughters; instead, I found passages promoting the liberation of women.

    Having been on both sides of the veil, I can tell you that most Western male politicians and journalists who lament the oppression of women in the Islamic world have no idea what they are talking about. A careful reading of the Koran shows that just about everything that Western feminists fought for in the 1970s was available to Muslim women 1,400 years ago.

    Yes, it is a religious obligation for Muslim women to dress modestly. My dress tells you that I am a Muslim and that I expect to be treated respectfully, much as a Wall Street banker would say that a business suit defines him as an executive to be taken seriously.

    In the West, men still believe that they are superior to women, despite protests to the contrary. They still receive better pay for equal work -- whether in the mailroom or the boardroom -- and women are still treated as sexualized commodities whose power and influence flow directly from their appearance.

    Now you tell me who is civilized and who is not.


    By Yvonne Ridley

    Yvonne Ridley is political editor of Islam Channel TV in London and coauthor

    of "In the Hands of the Taliban: Her Extraordinary Story" (Robson Books).


    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...102001259.html
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    Re: The Islamic veil across Europe

    format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis View Post
    As I've said before in other threads, I have no problem in principle with muslim head coverings. My only exception is that they should not be allowed to use their religion to enable them to obscure their features where others are not permitted to do so. Anywhere you can wear the covering that obscures the face, I should be allowed to wear a ski mask.
    Well Pygoscelis, they all seem to be against you.

    I'm not! You make a valid point.
    The results of hiding an identify is what needs to be evaluated, not the reason.
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    Re: The Islamic veil across Europe

    format_quote Originally Posted by ahsan28 View Post
    How I Came to Love the Veil

    I used to look at veiled women as quiet, oppressed creatures -- until I was captured by the Taliban.

    They called me a "bad" woman but let me go after I promised to read the Koran and study Islam. (Frankly, I'm not sure who was happier when I was freed -- they or I.)

    Back home in London, I kept my word about studying Islam -- and was amazed by what I discovered. I'd been expecting Koran chapters on how to beat your wife and oppress your daughters; instead, I found passages promoting the liberation of women.

    Having been on both sides of the veil, I can tell you that most Western male politicians and journalists who lament the oppression of women in the Islamic world have no idea what they are talking about. A careful reading of the Koran shows that just about everything that Western feminists fought for in the 1970s was available to Muslim women 1,400 years ago.

    Yes, it is a religious obligation for Muslim women to dress modestly. My dress tells you that I am a Muslim and that I expect to be treated respectfully, much as a Wall Street banker would say that a business suit defines him as an executive to be taken seriously.

    In the West, men still believe that they are superior to women, despite protests to the contrary. They still receive better pay for equal work -- whether in the mailroom or the boardroom -- and women are still treated as sexualized commodities whose power and influence flow directly from their appearance.

    Now you tell me who is civilized and who is not.


    By Yvonne Ridley

    Yvonne Ridley is political editor of Islam Channel TV in London and coauthor

    of "In the Hands of the Taliban: Her Extraordinary Story" (Robson Books).


    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...102001259.html
    Finally, all the justification need for the Taliban to kidnap people.
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    Re: The Islamic veil across Europe

    format_quote Originally Posted by silkworm View Post
    Pygoscelis:

    1) The Bible also asks Women to wear veils as in
    Islam {I Corinthians 11:3-10} do it???

    1 Cor. ch. x.: — “And let us not pollute ourselves with fornication, as some of them were polluted, and fell in one day to the number of twenty -three thousand.” Here is a blunder, for it is written “twenty-four thousand.”—Num. 25.

    The arguement starts here, we say you do what you want to and leave us alone, we don't "criticize" you to loitering on beaches in half nude, and you leave out ladies alone.

    You own Bible say what I quoted above - Do you have anything to say else, shouldn't you been doing what is said to you???
    We don't "criticize" you to loitering on beaches in half nude. Right!
    Considering that your statement in its self is criticism.
    Not to mention it is always used as condemnation of the West.
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    Re: The Islamic veil across Europe

    Oh, I see, you are one of the many anarchists we meet everyday who really are not interested in patching up differences or wanting to have religious tolerance, but are ready and willing to add fuel to fire.

    So thanks very much for your presence and "Bye" to everyone, cause this is gonna be my last posting. Adios amigos
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    Re: The Islamic veil across Europe

    format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis View Post
    As I've said before in other threads, I have no problem in principle with muslim head coverings. My only exception is that they should not be allowed to use their religion to enable them to obscure their features where others are not permitted to do so. Anywhere you can wear the covering that obscures the face, I should be allowed to wear a ski mask.
    lol thats actually a very good arguement.
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    Re: The Islamic veil across Europe

    format_quote Originally Posted by silkworm View Post
    Pygoscelis:

    1) The Bible also asks Women to wear veils as in
    Islam {I Corinthians 11:3-10} do it???

    1 Cor. ch. x.: — “And let us not pollute ourselves with fornication, as some of them were polluted, and fell in one day to the number of twenty -three thousand.” Here is a blunder, for it is written “twenty-four thousand.”—Num. 25.

    The arguement starts here, we say you do what you want to and leave us alone, we don't "criticize" you to loitering on beaches in half nude, and you leave out ladies alone.

    You own Bible say what I quoted above - Do you have anything to say else, shouldn't you been doing what is said to you???
    he's an atheist...
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    Re: The Islamic veil across Europe

    I dont have to much to say on this issue other than, al Islaam is the only thing that will save humanity from being destroyed by the cancer we know as secularism, and the secularist are shuddering with fear because we dont worship money and materialism we only prostrate to ALLAH (souhanhu wa t'ala)
    The Islamic veil across Europe

    أُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ حَقًّا لَّهُمْ دَرَجَاتٌ عِندَ رَبِّهِمْ وَمَغْفِرَةٌ وَرِزْقٌ كَرِيمٌ


    "Onlar namazlarını dosdoğru kılan ve kendilerine rızık olarak verdiğimizden [Allah yolunda] harcayan kimselerdir".8:3
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    Re: The Islamic veil across Europe


    format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis View Post
    As I've said before in other threads, I have no problem in principle with muslim head coverings. My only exception is that they should not be allowed to use their religion to enable them to obscure their features where others are not permitted to do so. Anywhere you can wear the covering that obscures the face, I should be allowed to wear a ski mask.
    First thing is first: niqab aka veil is not obligatory. Many people claim it is but it isn't. As for the Hijab - that only covers the female's hair (since hair is a form of reproductive sucess - I will create a thread regarding Psychology and Islam later on this week which will cover this topic).

    Lastly, ski masks obscure more of the face than a niqaab and Hijaab put together.
    The Islamic veil across Europe

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    Re: The Islamic veil across Europe

    Why I Wore A Veil When I Met John Paul II

    The Vatican held a conference to prepare for the Jubilee Year of 2000. They invited a group of academics, writers and broadcasters. Despite some raised eyebrows from Westminster Cathedral about my eligibility, I was Britain's representative. It was a once-in-a-lifetime experience, and I was nervous.

    The one thing I felt certain about was what to wear: the mantilla – a lace head-covering, usually black – perfectly blends humility, modesty and respect. For one thing, although it was once the must-have accessory of Catholic womanhood, only a very few, very pious women use it any more.

    The Muslim veil is very similar. It is a garment steeped in ancient tradition, praised in holy text and worn by the faithful. Like the mantilla, it is also noticeably at odds with the contemporary taste for baring flesh. Wear it, and you announce your difference.

    Neither mantilla nor veil is calculated as an aggressive provocation to society — quite the opposite: these are soft and feminine folds of cloth that modestly conceal a face and figure.

    By Cristina Odone

    Telegraph. UK
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    Re: The Islamic veil across Europe

    The attitude toward veiled women stems from ignorance or unfamiliarity with the other in the best case; hypocrisy and inconsistency in applying liberal values in most cases; and a simple, safe cover for hatred in the worst case. This combination aggravates the systematic discrimination against the Muslim woman, who pays for whatever option she chooses - whether she rebels against those who try to compel her to wear the veil against her will, or whether she needs to confront those who ostracize her due to their suspicion, hatred or revulsion over the veil. Wearing a veil is not a matter of aesthetics; it is a matter of individual freedom.

    By Ayman Khatib-Yassin

    The writer is an MA candidate at the Tel Aviv University School of Social Work.

    HAARETZ (Israel Daily)

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/810114.html
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    Re: The Islamic veil across Europe

    Just you guys wait

    VeiledLiberty 1 - The Islamic veil across Europe
    The Islamic veil across Europe


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    Re: The Islamic veil across Europe

    well put akh Osman
    allahuAkbar 1 - The Islamic veil across Europe
    The Islamic veil across Europe

    أُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ حَقًّا لَّهُمْ دَرَجَاتٌ عِندَ رَبِّهِمْ وَمَغْفِرَةٌ وَرِزْقٌ كَرِيمٌ


    "Onlar namazlarını dosdoğru kılan ve kendilerine rızık olarak verdiğimizden [Allah yolunda] harcayan kimselerdir".8:3
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    Re: The Islamic veil across Europe

    Thank God I don't live in Europe, it's evident that the Ummah is having a tough time with acceptance. I honestly don't see how it effects anyone else if someone decides to wear a headscarf -- I doesn't hurt you! It's a conscious decision that someone who holds their religion dear to them makes. I understand that some countries want to have a seperation between Church and state, but is not allowing the Freedom of Religion really the way to go about it?
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