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We came, we saw, we ruined Iraq – to stay will wound it more

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    We came, we saw, we ruined Iraq – to stay will wound it more

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    Sunday Times September 04, 2005

    We came, we saw, we ruined Iraq – to stay will wound it more
    Simon Jenkins
    trans - We came, we saw, we ruined Iraq – to stay will wound it more Two great cities, New Orleans and Baghdad, were last week plunged in horror. They both cried out for sympathy. One will get it, the other will not. The thousands who have died in Louisiana and the 1,000 more who died during the Baghdad stampede show how even modern cities hover on the brink of disaster. People have always congregated in them for security. The levees of 19th-century New Orleans and the oil-rich oases of the Tigris invited people’s labour and offered protection in return. But protection requires order. Remove order and the old Muslim saying holds true. An hour of anarchy is worse than 100 years of tyranny.


    It is ironic that both cities at their moment of crisis relied on federal Washington for support. New Orleans was bought from the French in 1803 and depends for its survival on the US Army Corps of Engineers. Last week’s inundation from Hurricane Katrina was beyond realistic prevention, although it was not beyond prediction. If looters and reporters could roam the streets at will it was a mystery that law officers and relief supplies could not.

    Seeing looters filmed on the streets of New Orleans reminded me of an American official outside Baghdad’s National Museum 18 months ago. He explained that its looting was nothing to do with the Americans since “it was the Iraqis who did the looting”. I pointed out that all authority in the city had collapsed as a direct result of American policy. He shrugged.

    I sensed the same shrug in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. It is odd that America, a land so proud of its cities, should be unable to understand them or cope with their distress.

    Baghdad is a different matter. Here security has been usurped and then guaranteed for more than two years by the Pentagon. The disaster on al-Aima bridge was an accident but one that arose from a collapse of civic order. That a million Shi’ites should so crave normality as to converge on the al-Kadhimiya shrine was impressive. Yet dissidents were able casually to lob mortars among them and terrorise them with threats of bombs. Normality in Baghdad is a hair’s breadth from chaos.

    The way forward for New Orleans is clear. Once the shock is over, it will recover its bravura and confidence. There will be massive aid for its rebuilding. It merits our sympathy but it will survive.

    For Baghdad the way forward is only gloom and fear. I have not been to the city for 18 months, but talking to friends and reading reports tells me that its yearning for order is even more desperate.

    Any city, however abused by an occupying power, needs security. Nothing is more important. Citizens may go to market, walk by the river, read newspapers and even visit an art gallery. But Baghdad’s streets are barricaded, armed and patrolled by vigilantes. Women must wear veils for their security and do not venture out at night. Kidnap-prone doctors and academics flee to Jordan. Everyone says it “must” get better, there “must” be hope, but Iraqis are always optimists. Others owe it to them to be realists.

    More than two years of chaos, killing and fraud have seen the American reconstruction of Baghdad hardly begin. It is too unsafe. The city has yet to recover from the unbelievable mistake of the Americans and British bombing all the government infrastructure so as to cause “shock and awe”, and then disbanding the police and the army and stopping their pensions.

    It must have been the first time since the Middle Ages that instilling anarchy has been the deliberate policy of an occupying power. Donald Rumsfeld, the US defence secretary, and **** Cheney, the US vice-president, were told by the neocons that freedom would blossom spontaneously from the ashes. They were fooled. Baghdad is a memorial to this idiocy.

    I have not read a single coherent account of the current strategy for Iraq that is founded on anything but wishful thinking. Those on the ground know the truth, occasionally breaking surface with a leaked army report or evidence to Congress. This paper’s Review section today reports Andrew Krepinevich’s plan of action for Iraq in response to two years of Pentagon boasts, reassurances and promises.



    Every one has been wrong. Optimism is a noble quality in war, but wanting something does not make it so. In Iraq, President George W Bush sees democracy as he once saw weapons of mass destruction: as a mirage.

    What of Britain in this? Kenneth Clarke rightly reminded his spineless Conservative party on Thursday that Britain is party to this cruel war. Its justification was that the world might be better if a particular ruler were not running Iraq, other things being equal.

    They never are equal. The war was sold to the British public by one of the most grotesque deceptions in modern government: Tony Blair and Alastair Campbell’s dodgy dossiers. People were deceived, but it is hard to believe that Downing Street deceived itself. All warnings, from the Foreign Office, Arab countries, the US State Department, even US army chiefs, warned Bush and Blair that Saddam Hussein’s secular, centralist regime was all that held Iraq together, and then only just. Topple it and strong authority must instantly replace it. Even then, the autonomy granted by the West to the Kurds would probably see a bid for autonomy from the oil-rich Shi’ite south. That for sure would mean a Sunni revolt.



    All this was disregarded by the small group in the Pentagon who, as Bob Woodward and others have reported, waged this campaign from the start. They did so with Blair’s compliance. He and the Americans handed power to anyone filling the vacuum they had created: sheikhs, warlords and the Iran-backed private militias, now rich on filched American aid. It is hard to see how this was an ideal test bed for a new democracy.

    I never saw Iraq as an American colony, although the Pentagon certainly hoped for a military ally. But how the government’s post- invasion strategy tallied with any sensible objective is a mystery. January’s much-lauded election, dominated by admittedly brave expatriates, was a foretaste of last week’s constitutional fiasco. Its collapse was as sad as it was inevitable. It ended with the absurdity of frantic American officials pleading with Sunnis to accept sharia clauses in the constitution so as to close a deal with the Shi’ite clerics. Whatever else the Pentagon wants in Baghdad it is not female emancipation.

    Baghdad now faces a ghastly choice. It is between the continued anarchy of the American-British presence and the anarchy that would follow its withdrawal, as Sunnis and Muslim militias carve up central Iraq in a de facto partition. This would be no more separatist than what the Americans have already conceded to the Kurds in the north. Since the second option is likely to happen anyway, the only grim virtue lies in getting it over with.

    Security within 100 miles of Baghdad is getting worse, not better. “Staying the course” is not working. It is a catchphrase, not a policy. It simply involves killing people and getting them killed in return. A planned and co-ordinated coalition withdrawal is now simply the least worst option.

    America can at least show reasons for attacking Iraq, an extension of its retaliatory rage after 9/11. Britain had none. Blair’s support for Bush was unnecessary and his failure to exert any leverage over his policy is baffling, even to his aides. He is where no general should ever be: in a fight whose conduct, course and outcome he cannot control. His soldiers must stand by and watch as American-induced lawlessness spreads south into British-controlled territory.

    Blair hopes soon to withdraw troops from Basra under cover of deploying them to Afghanistan, for reasons that are obscure. He cannot do so if he also thinks, in line with Washington, that “the corner is about to turn in Iraq”. Were that true, extra troops should surely be sent to boost security. The fact is that Blair is in a political Guantanamo. In the wrong place at the wrong time, he finds himself a prisoner without trial at the Pentagon’s whim.

    Since 1815 and the battle of New Orleans, Louisiana has not been Britain’s concern. Baghdad is. We are party to the destruction of a city and the dismembering of its country amid growing insecurity. The greatest arrogance of all is that we can somehow do more good than harm by staying.

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    Re: We came, we saw, we ruined Iraq – to stay will wound it more



    In my opinion, Iraq was ruined long before the Americans invaded.

    Saddam ruined Iraq, IMO.

    We came, we saw, we ruined Iraq – to stay will wound it more

    -Imaad Udeen Abdul al-Majeed

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    Re: We came, we saw, we ruined Iraq – to stay will wound it more

    Assalamu alaikum

    So you are using that as justification for the actions of the Americans?

    "Iraq was ruined long before the Americans invaded."

    I find that very sad.
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    Re: We came, we saw, we ruined Iraq – to stay will wound it more

    format_quote Originally Posted by imaad_udeen


    In my opinion, Iraq was ruined long before the Americans invaded.

    Saddam ruined Iraq, IMO.

    Asallama Alaikum Akhi.Compare when Saddam was in power to this very day.Surprisingly I could honestly say Iraq was in a better state before then now.Jazak'Allah brother Farhan.The saddest thing is how the two cities(New Orleans & Baghdad)solely rely on the U.S.Can I ask what has that lead to?None other then hardship and turmoil. :mad: :mad:
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    Re: We came, we saw, we ruined Iraq – to stay will wound it more

    salaamu alaikum...tht's true!!
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    Re: We came, we saw, we ruined Iraq – to stay will wound it more

    format_quote Originally Posted by Far7an
    Assalamu alaikum

    So you are using that as justification for the actions of the Americans?

    "Iraq was ruined long before the Americans invaded."

    I find that very sad.
    So I guess mass graves, rapes by the son of the head of state, political murder and no civil or personal liberties are signs of a 'healthy' country?
    We came, we saw, we ruined Iraq – to stay will wound it more

    -Imaad Udeen Abdul al-Majeed

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    Re: We came, we saw, we ruined Iraq – to stay will wound it more

    format_quote Originally Posted by Shukri
    Asallama Alaikum Akhi.Compare when Saddam was in power to this very day.Surprisingly I could honestly say Iraq was in a better state before then now.Jazak'Allah brother Farhan.The saddest thing is how the two cities(New Orleans & Baghdad)solely rely on the U.S.Can I ask what has that lead to?None other then hardship and turmoil. :mad: :mad:
    Imagine how you can possibly live in such as terrible country as the United States?
    We came, we saw, we ruined Iraq – to stay will wound it more

    -Imaad Udeen Abdul al-Majeed

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    Re: We came, we saw, we ruined Iraq – to stay will wound it more

    format_quote Originally Posted by imaad_udeen
    Imagine how you can possibly live in such as terrible country as the United States?
    Yeah just imagine hummmmmmmm
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    Re: We came, we saw, we ruined Iraq – to stay will wound it more

    format_quote Originally Posted by imaad_udeen
    Imagine how you can possibly live in such as terrible country as the United States?

    I see that you yourself is living in the United States. Now the question bounces back on you. How can you possibly live in such a terrible country as the U.S?
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    Re: We came, we saw, we ruined Iraq – to stay will wound it more

    format_quote Originally Posted by Far7an
    Assalamu alaikum

    So you are using that as justification for the actions of the Americans?

    "Iraq was ruined long before the Americans invaded."

    I find that very sad.
    Let me refresh you on the history. Remember exactly 1 decade ago when there was genocide..and killings of innocent women and children...remember that? Who was the leader then? Well that's why imaad_udeen is not letting us forget about the past horror in Iraq. So that's what he means about the "ruins".
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    Re: We came, we saw, we ruined Iraq – to stay will wound it more

    Assalamu'Alaykum

    Ya ukhtee, what me and you say in this matter, or any member on this board, holds no weight. It is easy for us to sit at our computers safe and sound at home, and write about those suffering thosands of miles away. Let us look at what the Iraqi's think, do they approve of the occupation?

    At first, yes they did, they welcome the "allied" forces with open arms thinking they will be liberated. But that was 2 years ago, let us look at the condition now.when we see the Dissapointment of the iraqis on the media, that is minor in comparison the the injustices our brothers and SISTERS have gone through in the prisons of the Americans and BritishYou may or not be aware, last ramadhan, the Americans had captured several Sisters which they said were "suspected terrorists". These sisters were raped and tortured, a letter was sent out by one of the sisters as a cry of help...she also said in that letter, that many of the sisters are carrying babies now..now if this does not make your heart bleed for your fellow brethren, and you still chose to side with the Americans, may Allah guide us.

    ~ameen
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    Re: We came, we saw, we ruined Iraq – to stay will wound it more

    format_quote Originally Posted by 3washey
    Assalamu'Alaykum

    Ya ukhtee, what me and you say in this matter, or any member on this board, holds no weight. It is easy for us to sit at our computers safe and sound at home, and write about those suffering thosands of miles away. Let us look at what the Iraqi's think, do they approve of the occupation?

    At first, yes they did, they welcome the "allied" forces with open arms thinking they will be liberated. But that was 2 years ago, let us look at the condition now.when we see the Dissapointment of the iraqis on the media, that is minor in comparison the the injustices our brothers and SISTERS have gone through in the prisons of the Americans and BritishYou may or not be aware, last ramadhan, the Americans had captured several Sisters which they said were "suspected terrorists". These sisters were raped and tortured, a letter was sent out by one of the sisters as a cry of help...she also said in that letter, that many of the sisters are carrying babies now..now if this does not make your heart bleed for your fellow brethren, and you still chose to side with the Americans, may Allah guide us.

    ~ameen
    Ameen Jazak'Allah 3washey now would you mind making the writing a little bit bigger.Ukhti Halima sister let me refresh your memory who decided on invading Iraq with no justification at all to why he did it?What did that result to?
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    Re: We came, we saw, we ruined Iraq – to stay will wound it more

    format_quote Originally Posted by Halima
    Let me refresh you on the history. Remember exactly 1 decade ago when there was genocide..and killings of innocent women and children...remember that? Who was the leader then? Well that's why imaad_udeen is not letting us forget about the past horror in Iraq. So that's what he means about the "ruins".

    lead me refresh your memory sis. remember in the early 80's when Sadam and Rumsfield and other US leaders were pals. and the US gave sadam $1.6 millions worth of pesticides and other chemical and biological weapons to use on the kurds and the iranians and other minority groups in Iraq who opposed the iron fist of sadam. and lets not forget who put the big bad wolf in power.
    lesson to learn: the US starts a mess and then 20 years later attempts to clean it up but they end up making it into an even bigger mess. may Allah guide us all.
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    Re: We came, we saw, we ruined Iraq – to stay will wound it more

    format_quote Originally Posted by abdullahi

    lead me refresh your memory sis. remember in the early 80's when Sadam and Rumsfield and other US leaders were pals. and the US gave sadam $1.6 millions worth of pesticides and other chemical and biological weapons to use on the kurds and the iranians and other minority groups in Iraq who opposed the iron fist of sadam. and lets not forget who put the big bad wolf in power.
    lesson to learn: the US starts a mess and then 20 years later attempts to clean it up but they end up making it into an even bigger mess. may Allah guide us all.


    Prove it.

    We came, we saw, we ruined Iraq – to stay will wound it more

    -Imaad Udeen Abdul al-Majeed

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    Re: We came, we saw, we ruined Iraq – to stay will wound it more

    format_quote Originally Posted by Halima
    I see that you yourself is living in the United States. Now the question bounces back on you. How can you possibly live in such a terrible country as the U.S?


    Dont find ti terrible.

    Born here, raised here. Have many dear friends here.

    We came, we saw, we ruined Iraq – to stay will wound it more

    -Imaad Udeen Abdul al-Majeed

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    Re: We came, we saw, we ruined Iraq – to stay will wound it more


    insh'Allah i will give sufficient proof soon. i have to go to college now.
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    Re: We came, we saw, we ruined Iraq – to stay will wound it more

    format_quote Originally Posted by Shukri
    Ameen Jazak'Allah 3washey now would you mind making the writing a little bit bigger.Ukhti Halima sister let me refresh your memory who decided on invading Iraq with no justification at all to why he did it?What did that result to?

    Ukhti let me ask you.. was there any justification when Saddaam let innocent civilians kill innocent civilians? Was there any justification for Sadaam to torture women? Was there any justification for his sons to have a torture chamber? What in God's name gave him the right to do those kinds of things?
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    Re: We came, we saw, we ruined Iraq – to stay will wound it more

    Assalamu alaikum
    format_quote Originally Posted by Halima
    Ukhti let me ask you.. was there any justification when Saddaam let innocent civilians kill innocent civilians? Was there any justification for Sadaam to torture women? Was there any justification for his sons to have a torture chamber? What in God's name gave him the right to do those kinds of things?
    I don't think anyone thinks Saddam was a good leader, but the Americans are no saints in comparison.
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    Re: We came, we saw, we ruined Iraq – to stay will wound it more

    format_quote Originally Posted by Far7an
    Assalamu alaikum

    I don't think anyone thinks Saddam was a good leader, but the Americans are no saints in comparison.
    Yeah Jazak'Allah brother.Sis what gave Bush the justification to do what he has already done?Sis no one ever said Saddam was a perfect just ruler okay he was one of the puppets of the kufaar so were his sons.
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    Re: We came, we saw, we ruined Iraq – to stay will wound it more


    i urge everyone to read the following articles on the Saddam-America connection:

    Saddam Connection Confirmed!!
    FLASHBACK: THE REAGAN-SADDAM CONNECTION
    U.S. Had Key Role in Iraq Buildup
    obviously this article is going to biased, but it also confirms the american involvement in the gassing of kurds, iranians, and others
    U.S. DOCUMENTS SHOW EMBRACE OF SADDAM HUSSEIN IN EARLY 1980s

    although this is has nothing to do with the topic, i just wanted to point out how much taller sadam is than rumsfield. i remember when they captured sadam, every news channel described him as being a short, chubby guy. he certainly doesn't look short or chubby in this photos, nor in any of his other photos or videos that i've seen. and if i can recall correctly, sadam had about a dozen doubles. interesting, ain't it?

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