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Kemal Ataturk

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    Kemal Ataturk (OP)




    Cultural reform

    Introduction of the Latin alphabet for Turkish

    Mustafa Kemal regarded the fez (which Sultan Mahmud II had originally introduced to the Ottoman Empire's dress code in 1826) as a symbol of feudalism and banned it, encouraging Turkish men to wear European attire. The hijab (veil) for women, while never formally banned, was strongly discouraged; and women were encouraged to wear western apparel and enter the country's workforce. From 1926, the Islamic calendar was replaced with the Gregorian calendar. In 1928 the government decreed that the Arabic script be replaced by a modified Latin alphabet, and citizens between the ages of six and forty were required to attend school and learn the new alphabet. The conservative clergy fiercely opposed these reforms, trying in vain to maintain its traditionally strong influence. As a result of the reforms literacy increased dramatically. The reforms also included extensive removal of Arabic and Persian words from the Turkish language.

    Mustafa Kemal opened new schools, where, as part of the curriculum, fine arts were taught to boys as well as girls. Girls had traditionally been excluded entirely from education, but a universal system of education was introduced for children of both sexes. He also lifted the Islamic ban on alcoholic beverages: Mustafa Kemal had an appreciation for the national liquor, rakı, and consumed vast quantities of it. In 1934 he promulgated a law requiring all Turks to adopt surnames. The Grand National Assembly gave him the deferential name Atatürk, meaning "ancestor Turk," and assumption of that name by other men is still forbidden by law.

    Seeking to limit the influence of Islam on Turkish political and cultural institutions, which he regarded as one of the principal causes impeding Turkish development, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk abolished the 1300-year-old Islamic caliphate on 3 March 1924 and established a western-style separation of church and state ("mosque" and state) in Turkey. While promoting a secular Turkish state, Atatürk maintained the traditional Ottoman tolerance of religious diversity and freedoms, but viewed these freedoms in the western Enlightenment sense of freedom of conscience.

    Atatürk praying at the opening of the TBMM

    Atatürk himself was Muslim. In the book Kemalizm, Laiklik ve Demokrasi (Kemalism, Laicism and Democracy), Ahmet Taner Kışlalı quotes from a speech of Atatürk that may reveal some of the reasoning behind his support of the separation of Religion and state:

    "Religion is an important institution. A nation without religion cannot survive. Yet it is also very important to note that religion is a link between Allah and the individual believer. The brokerage of the pious cannot be permitted. Those who use religion for their own benefit are detestable. We are against such a situation and will not allow it. Those who use religion in such a manner have fooled our people; it is against just such people that we have fought and will continue to fight. Know that whatever conforms to reason, logic, and the advantages and needs of our people conforms equally to [Islam]. If our religion did not conform to reason and logic, it would not be the perfect religion, the final religion" (31).

    Such thoughts would seem to buttress the statement of Atatürk's biographer, Patrick Kinross, concerning how Atatürk—who prized science and rationalism as the basis of morality and philosophy—considered himself a rational believer of Islam in that Islam could complement science and rational thinking. The quote also shows how strongly Atatürk was opposed to fanaticism ("the pious"). Another speech quoted by Kışlalı relates Atatürk's thoughts on how Islam came to be in such a degenerate state:

    "The foundation of our religion is very strong. The material is strong as well, but the building itself was neglected for hundreds of years. As the plaster dropped down, none thought to replace it and none felt the need to reinforce the building. Quite the contrary: many foreign elements and interpretations, as well as empty beliefs, came along and damaged it still more" (ibid.).
    [edit]

    Women's rights

    With abiding faith in the vital importance of women in society, Atatürk launched many reforms to give Turkish women equal rights and opportunities. The new Civil Code, adopted in 1926, abolished polygamy and recognized the equal rights of women in divorce, custody, and inheritance. The entire educational system from the grade school to the university became coeducational. Atatürk greatly admired the support that the national liberation struggle received from women and praised their many contributions: "In Turkish society, women have not lagged behind men in science, scholarship, and culture. Perhaps they have even gone further ahead." He gave women the same opportunities as men, including full political rights. In the mid-1930s, 18 women, among them a villager, were elected to the national parliament. Later, Turkey had the world's first female supreme court justice.
    what do you think of this guy people?
    Methinks [content removed] .

    Last edited by Muhammad; 12-02-2005 at 06:50 PM. Reason: Be careful in saying such things, for only Allaah decides people's fate

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    Re: Kemal Ataturk

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    format_quote Originally Posted by Akeyi View Post
    First

    Deny him military role he was not a good military leader. Your second sentence is what i would sign under it. Second you you wrote poverrrty wrong. AND HIS GREATEST FEHLER WAS THAT NOW I CANT READ ARAB ALPHABET IT IS BAD. AND HIS SECOND GREATEST FEHLER IST FORCING PEOPLE WEAR WHAT INFIDELS WEAR.

    But infidels were afraid of muslims. Because we were the source of moral so they didnot dress up like they wanted. And of course their religion didn't have effect on them much. Now if you go to the istanbul for the morning prayer you ask yourself if this place our prophet's SAV state . But if you there night you ask yourself is this state state of anti muslim state ?
    Excuse me but I can't really understand what you mean, brother. You write English-German mixed.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya. View Post
    Executing those scholars and prohibiting Arabic was neccessary to improve as a society.
    Maybe I should put this under quoatation. I wrote that as an example for my statement that people would accept what the government says because criticism on new reforms wasn't tolerated and violently suppressed.
    Kemal Ataturk

    And [there is a share for] those who came after them, saying, "Our Lord, forgive us and our brothers who preceded us in faith and put not in our hearts [any] resentment toward those who have believed. Our Lord, indeed You are Kind and Merciful." (Surat al-Hashr, 10)
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    Re: Kemal Ataturk

    I haven't had the chance yet to go through this whole thread, but let me say this:

    Kemal Attaturk was a Kaafir and an enemy of Islaam. He hated the Deen and tried to destroy it.
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    Re: Kemal Ataturk

    Danke Schöne ^
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    Re: Kemal Ataturk

    format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian View Post
    Danke Schöne ^
    You speak German?
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    Re: Kemal Ataturk

    format_quote Originally Posted by huzaifah ibn adam View Post
    you speak german?
    you speak german
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    Re: Kemal Ataturk

    No I was just making fun sorry
    Kemal Ataturk

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    Re: Kemal Ataturk

    my question is real too
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    Re: Kemal Ataturk

    format_quote Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam View Post
    I haven't had the chance yet to go through this whole thread, but let me say this:

    Kemal Attaturk was a Kaafir and an enemy of Islaam. He hated the Deen and tried to destroy it.
    Ask any scholar, they will tell you he was a kuffar and a secrete jew who outwardly pretended to be Muslim. Those who are defending him are doing so out of ignorance, some nationalistic loyalty or some kind of neutrality. This is not making takfeer on him, his words and his actions put him out of the fold of Islam. You will not find any scholar or anyone sound of deen deny his kufr.
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    Re: Kemal Ataturk

    format_quote Originally Posted by aaj View Post
    Ask any scholar, they will tell you he was a kuffar and a secrete jew who outwardly pretended to be Muslim. Those who are defending him are doing so out of ignorance, some nationalistic loyalty or some kind of neutrality. This is not making takfeer on him, his words and his actions put him out of the fold of Islam. You will not find any scholar or anyone sound of deen deny his kufr.
    That actually is takfir. That's exactly what that is. And I will explain.

    If he had openly apostasized, then he would have put himself outside the fold of Islam. But he did not do that. He set about some rapid reform efforts, but he continued to practice Islam and always claimed to be a Muslim.

    Under those circumstances, what you're doing absolutely is takfir. You stop well short of it insofar as you are merely critical of his decisions, and insofar as you claim that he was bad for Islam. But then you say he's kufr, and There it is, right there, that is takfir. Yes it is. And then you basically say "It's not takfir because I think I have good reasons for my takfir." Actually mate, you're not supposed to do this takfir thing Even If you think you have good reasons. Takfir is supposed to be something that you don't ever do, at all, period, full stop. That is literally the whole point of it being disallowed, the whole purpose is to stop you from doing what you just did.
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    Re: Kemal Ataturk

    format_quote Originally Posted by cooterhein View Post
    That could potentially happen by means of a shared national identity. That's especially likely in a peaceful secular society that's free of supremacist tendencies.
    secularism

    means religion can not interfere state's business and state can not interfere religion.

    First ataturk used state's power to hurt religion anyway he can. Killed people just because they wanted to wear things our prophet wears. SAV. Made mosques stables.

    CHANGED ADHAN

    C
    Changed alphabet which cut our connection with muslim word. Destroyed Khalif. Destroyed Sharia. Forced women to wear what infidels wear. Forbid reading quran. Forbid any religious education which lead to lack of imam's then people could not bury their deads. Uncountable number of dead imams just because they refused . It is tragic there is a song ataturk ordered a ship to go bomb a city. Of course he orders to bomb his own country. People wrote that song Dont shoot hamidiye Dont shoot we will give taxes we will wear HATS. Started village schools which forced children to go it seems like ok but children used to stay there and learn how to be acommunist . Greatest communists said that that is the dream school in my dreams. Established a national ideology which made people believe islam is bad. Also wanted to do what luther did. He wanted to make a reform in religion. He put desks in mosques and said you will speak turkish and use this desks like in churches. TURKEY BECAME THE STATE who has most STATUES. GUESS WHOSE STATUES ARE THEY ? His statues. The things he done is uncountable. Other than that he made all those things with an army calls himself we are little MUHAMMEDs SAV.

    And you are saying these are not interfering to religion. All those things already aganist secularism. A man said if you blow of the ashes of this nation you will find emaan there. Other than that ISLAM ALREADY ORDERS SHARIA. SO SECULARISM IS NOT WHAT WE WANT.
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    Re: Kemal Ataturk

    format_quote Originally Posted by cooterhein View Post
    he continued to practice Islam and always claimed to be a Muslim.
    Is this sentence just to fill length? Please bring me one incident where he practiced Islam after 1924 and evidence the he once claimed to be Muslim after 1924. I don't know any historian -regardless of religion- who states that he was a Muslim.

    He believed in Naturalism.
    According to Mustafa Kamal ''there is nothing besides nature, people thinking otherwise are in delusion''
    İhsan Akay - Atatürkçülğün İlkeleri (The principles of Ataturkism) page 133

    ''Nature derived humans and made them worship it. But for the humans to live on the face of earth it stipulated their sovereignty upon itself. ''
    3rd May 1935 Etimesgut Air Base
    Kemal Ataturk

    And [there is a share for] those who came after them, saying, "Our Lord, forgive us and our brothers who preceded us in faith and put not in our hearts [any] resentment toward those who have believed. Our Lord, indeed You are Kind and Merciful." (Surat al-Hashr, 10)
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    Re: Kemal Ataturk

    If Atatürk was such a dictator why did not he openly claim to be non-Muslim, atheist or what ever he was? I also don't think he had fear of anyone. Khilafah and Shariah was unconditional parts of Islam and he had enough "courage" to abolish these institutions. However, he had no where said that he didn't believe in Islam.

    Turkish people had and I believe will have an important place in Islam and Atatürk rising up with a very critical timing saved this nation from termination. Ofcourse he did this thing with other poeple but he was the master mind. A Turkish Muslim must just respect him.
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    Re: Kemal Ataturk

    format_quote Originally Posted by cooterhein View Post
    That actually is takfir. That's exactly what that is. And I will explain.

    If he had openly apostasized, then he would have put himself outside the fold of Islam. But he did not do that. He set about some rapid reform efforts, but he continued to practice Islam and always claimed to be a Muslim.

    Under those circumstances, what you're doing absolutely is takfir. You stop well short of it insofar as you are merely critical of his decisions, and insofar as you claim that he was bad for Islam. But then you say he's kufr, and There it is, right there, that is takfir. Yes it is. And then you basically say "It's not takfir because I think I have good reasons for my takfir." Actually mate, you're not supposed to do this takfir thing Even If you think you have good reasons. Takfir is supposed to be something that you don't ever do, at all, period, full stop. That is literally the whole point of it being disallowed, the whole purpose is to stop you from doing what you just did.
    A Christian is going to teach us what is takfir and how it is used?

    I didn't say he's kufr, i said he's a kuffar who committed kufr. Know the difference between kuffar and kufr?

    Regardless of what the laymen say on here, the scholars are clear on this and his actions on what he did against Islam, putting him out of Islam, is clear. End of story.
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    Re: Kemal Ataturk

    Ataturk, doesn't even deserve a thread on this forum.

    Scimi
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    Re: Kemal Ataturk

    format_quote Originally Posted by aaj View Post
    Regardless of what the laymen say on here, the scholars are clear on this and his actions on what he did against Islam, putting him out of Islam, is clear. End of story.
    Unless he openly apostasized (which he did not), he didn't get put out of Islam.

    That is the end of the story.
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    Re: Kemal Ataturk

    format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar View Post
    Ataturk, doesn't even deserve a thread on this forum.

    Scimi

    you just say this 2 this 2 this 2 too many times
    then you say this is not 2

    saying things which aganist each other destroys power of your words
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    Re: Kemal Ataturk

    format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian View Post
    If Atatürk was such a dictator why did not he openly claim to be non-Muslim, atheist or what ever he was? I also don't think he had fear of anyone. Khilafah and Shariah was unconditional parts of Islam and he had enough "courage" to abolish these institutions. However, he had no where said that he didn't believe in Islam.

    Turkish people had and I believe will have an important place in Islam and Atatürk rising up with a very critical timing saved this nation from termination. Ofcourse he did this thing with other poeple but he was the master mind. A Turkish Muslim must just respect him.
    Ever heard of the Donmeh? Lol surely you as a Turk would know that word.

    Ataturk was a crypto-Jew

    Scimi
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    Re: Kemal Ataturk

    Bro, have a shower... this is where you become rather irate over your nation, all over again.

    TO be honest, it's boring the crap out of me.

    Turkey, is a turkey. A bird which cannot fly. It's related to the chicken like that.

    Period.

    Scimi
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    Re: Kemal Ataturk

    format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar View Post
    Turkey, is a turkey. A bird which cannot fly.
    That´s why it was an easy target for the Americans whose stuffed it with Nato and other westernizing and ate it at the Thanksgiving Day?

    (Got kind of association from that sentence of Scimi. )
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    From Occupied Palestine:

    We have suffered too much for too long. We will not accept apartheid masked as peace. We will settle for no less than our freedom.



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    Re: Kemal Ataturk

    TURKEY were and will be our prophet's state.

    Turkey is name found by frankreich Ottoman empire is name ottoman empire didn't prefer. Ottoman empire is the state of our prophet sav. Since the Hz Ali. Islam didn't have a time like ottoman empire. And until the turkey becomes state of our prophet there won't be any state like ottoman empire.

    ATATÜRK İS GREATEST PROVE THAT OTTOMAN EMPIRE WERE OUR PROPHET'S STATE.

    AND I FORGOT TO SHARE THE BOOK I MENTIONED

    http://www.erisale.com/index.jsp?loc...ent.en.204.103
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