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    Kemal Ataturk (OP)




    Cultural reform

    Introduction of the Latin alphabet for Turkish

    Mustafa Kemal regarded the fez (which Sultan Mahmud II had originally introduced to the Ottoman Empire's dress code in 1826) as a symbol of feudalism and banned it, encouraging Turkish men to wear European attire. The hijab (veil) for women, while never formally banned, was strongly discouraged; and women were encouraged to wear western apparel and enter the country's workforce. From 1926, the Islamic calendar was replaced with the Gregorian calendar. In 1928 the government decreed that the Arabic script be replaced by a modified Latin alphabet, and citizens between the ages of six and forty were required to attend school and learn the new alphabet. The conservative clergy fiercely opposed these reforms, trying in vain to maintain its traditionally strong influence. As a result of the reforms literacy increased dramatically. The reforms also included extensive removal of Arabic and Persian words from the Turkish language.

    Mustafa Kemal opened new schools, where, as part of the curriculum, fine arts were taught to boys as well as girls. Girls had traditionally been excluded entirely from education, but a universal system of education was introduced for children of both sexes. He also lifted the Islamic ban on alcoholic beverages: Mustafa Kemal had an appreciation for the national liquor, rakı, and consumed vast quantities of it. In 1934 he promulgated a law requiring all Turks to adopt surnames. The Grand National Assembly gave him the deferential name Atatürk, meaning "ancestor Turk," and assumption of that name by other men is still forbidden by law.

    Seeking to limit the influence of Islam on Turkish political and cultural institutions, which he regarded as one of the principal causes impeding Turkish development, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk abolished the 1300-year-old Islamic caliphate on 3 March 1924 and established a western-style separation of church and state ("mosque" and state) in Turkey. While promoting a secular Turkish state, Atatürk maintained the traditional Ottoman tolerance of religious diversity and freedoms, but viewed these freedoms in the western Enlightenment sense of freedom of conscience.

    Atatürk praying at the opening of the TBMM

    Atatürk himself was Muslim. In the book Kemalizm, Laiklik ve Demokrasi (Kemalism, Laicism and Democracy), Ahmet Taner Kışlalı quotes from a speech of Atatürk that may reveal some of the reasoning behind his support of the separation of Religion and state:

    "Religion is an important institution. A nation without religion cannot survive. Yet it is also very important to note that religion is a link between Allah and the individual believer. The brokerage of the pious cannot be permitted. Those who use religion for their own benefit are detestable. We are against such a situation and will not allow it. Those who use religion in such a manner have fooled our people; it is against just such people that we have fought and will continue to fight. Know that whatever conforms to reason, logic, and the advantages and needs of our people conforms equally to [Islam]. If our religion did not conform to reason and logic, it would not be the perfect religion, the final religion" (31).

    Such thoughts would seem to buttress the statement of Atatürk's biographer, Patrick Kinross, concerning how Atatürk—who prized science and rationalism as the basis of morality and philosophy—considered himself a rational believer of Islam in that Islam could complement science and rational thinking. The quote also shows how strongly Atatürk was opposed to fanaticism ("the pious"). Another speech quoted by Kışlalı relates Atatürk's thoughts on how Islam came to be in such a degenerate state:

    "The foundation of our religion is very strong. The material is strong as well, but the building itself was neglected for hundreds of years. As the plaster dropped down, none thought to replace it and none felt the need to reinforce the building. Quite the contrary: many foreign elements and interpretations, as well as empty beliefs, came along and damaged it still more" (ibid.).
    [edit]

    Women's rights

    With abiding faith in the vital importance of women in society, Atatürk launched many reforms to give Turkish women equal rights and opportunities. The new Civil Code, adopted in 1926, abolished polygamy and recognized the equal rights of women in divorce, custody, and inheritance. The entire educational system from the grade school to the university became coeducational. Atatürk greatly admired the support that the national liberation struggle received from women and praised their many contributions: "In Turkish society, women have not lagged behind men in science, scholarship, and culture. Perhaps they have even gone further ahead." He gave women the same opportunities as men, including full political rights. In the mid-1930s, 18 women, among them a villager, were elected to the national parliament. Later, Turkey had the world's first female supreme court justice.
    what do you think of this guy people?
    Methinks [content removed] .

    Last edited by Muhammad; 12-02-2005 at 06:50 PM. Reason: Be careful in saying such things, for only Allaah decides people's fate

  2. #101
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    Re: Kemal Ataturk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam View Post
    Craziness starting to stream out like all the carbonation from a cheap fizz pop cooldrink...

    Things to understand:

    1) Attaturk was a Kaafir, and he was a Jew. This was proven in another thread a couple of months ago. Clear-cut statements of Attaturk were presented. That's besides the fact that he removed Islaam from Turkey. If Attaturk is a Muslim, so is Iblees. Their level of Islaam is the same.
    I like that description. It made me realize I'm thirsty.

    Quick question, as I'm not entirely familiar with the comparison you're making here- did Iblees, at any point in time, recite the shahada and genuinely believe it while he was saying it? And was Iblees born to Muslim parents and raised in a Muslim family?

    And here's a thing on Quora where someone asked if he was a Jew. https://www.quora.com/Was-Kemal-Ataturk-Jewish

    2) Turkey is Daar-ul-Kufr. It is not the "State" of Rasoolullaah صلى الله عليه وسلم. It never was. During the time of the old Uthmaani Sultaans, it was good. But since the 1700s, it's been devoid of Islaam.
    On the distinction between Dar-al-Islam, Dar al Harb, Dar al Hudna, and Dar al Kufr, this is a particular source that I'm working with here. http://www.mideastweb.org/Middle-Eas...r-al-islam.htm

    Do you have any opinions that you want to share concerning what's laid out in this source?

    3) Why is a Christian speaking on Takfeer? Doesn't even know what the term means. Everyone speaks on everything these days.
    Ah, but this Christian has the Internet. It's not that hard to find out what Takfir is. Notable examples of actual Takfir within Islam proper have involved Abu Bakr and certain Arab tribes that refused to pay zakat (although he didn't use the word Takfir and his comments may have been a description of general fact rather than a judgment against individuals). Ibn Taymiyyah ruled against certain Mongols in the 14th century (although he's followed more specifically by modern Salafis) and al-Wahhab cited him in the course of going after certain self-professed Muslims, including Sufis. Ahmadiyya has found itself on the business end of Takfir rulings, also the Zikri in Balochistan (Pakistan sure has gotten some mileage out of this), and Salman Rushdie has been a notable individual example....

    Other than that though, you've got quite a few less-good examples from outside of mainstream Islam. The Khawarjis used it as justification for much violence against the Umayyad caliphate. And in most example since 1950, it's been a central tenet of militant groups in Egypt, Algeria, Persia, and elsewhere that is used to justify violence against people who call themselves Muslims (and sometimes it's violence against Muslims who are believed to be Muslims by literally everyone except the militants that have declared Takfir). The Persian examples are pretty obvious, I'm sure you know all about the Khawarjis, the actions (well....attempted actions) of Sayyid Qutb give you an idea about Egypt, and the horrific actions of the GIA during the Algerian civil war were officially justified in writing (and signed by Zouabri) on the basis of Takfir.

    This is the main reason why it's so important to keep Takfir under control, and as a general rule to take people at their word when they say they're Muslims. Their Muslim identity is what protects them from violence by other Muslims. And the main reason for declaring Takfir is to open up the possibility of violence against those people. It's not the same thing as plotting or inciting violence, but I'll tell you exactly what it is- by declaring Takfir, you're literally saying this person or people-group is fair game. Anyone who wants to, go ahead, and I won't feel bad for them. They aren't on my team, they are a part of Dar al Kafr. I mean, that's exactly what you've said so far- you are referring to Turkey as Dar al Kafr.

    Would you be interested in changing that label to Dar al Amn? Go ahead an build a house of safety around them, would that be all right with you? Dar al Hudna would also be preferable to what you've described so far, but it really seems like Dar al Harb (literally "house of war," often used interchangeably with Dar al Kufr) is exactly the thing that you're driving at. That is what you've said so far. I'll go ahead and give you ample opportunity to say something different if you mean something different, but I have a feeling you'll double down on this.

    See, this is why true authoritative consensus and proper representation of the ummah as a whole is so important for this to be properly brought off. You can't just individually declare this kind of thing on your own or in small groups.

    4) Nationalism is against Islaam. Whether it is Arab nationalism (like the Kufr of the "Ba`th Party"), or Indian nationalism, or Turkish nationalism, or any other nationalism. Never become nationalistic.
    I'll take that as one type of opinion that can come out of Islam. Do you mind if I ask which scholars are your main sources for reaching this conclusion? Is this specific to Salafism?

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    Re: Kemal Ataturk

    This thread became trash what i wrote worth diamonds but noone wants to come and see some garbage because of this my diamonds does not deserve here i wil find some museum for my diamonds i hope. But not now

    Now i will write my defence.

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    Re: Kemal Ataturk

    I don't think it's relevant whether or not Kemal Ataturk was a kaafir. I think what matters is the oppression or lack thereof he put the Muslims through, in preventing them from practicing their religion.

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    Re: Kemal Ataturk

    This thread is trash there is too much trash here so what i would write which has diamond value is worthless.

    Noone wants to go to garbage place to find a diamond.

    And a diamond is worthless for a man who is going to die if can't find food. Or for a man who doesnt know what diamond is.

    First learn islam.

    There are some rules in islam.

    Islam is not a religion just about afterlife.

    There are rules for this life too. Which should order our this life. And praying fasting going to hac etc. Is one side of the things we should do there is another side too.

    There might be religion which has only one side but islam is not like that.

    By doing one side we fight with somethings. Pleasure nefs etc. By doing other side we are doing something else . Fighting with pleasures etc.

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    Re: Kemal Ataturk

    Quote Originally Posted by anatolian View Post
    Maybe the mods have problems with Turkey like you.

    And your biggest problem is you think that you know so much about Turkey and Turkish people but yet you haven't even lived in Turkey any while. You have just visited Istanbul a long time ago and you think that you have achieved enough infornmation about these people. How can this be possible? I clearly understand what sort of people you are reffering to when you blame them with nonsense and I agree you on this. But there are much much more people in Turkey than you know and most of them have quite a healthy understanding of Turkish nationalism. The real Turkish nationalist do not sees him/herself superior or others inferior but they see themselves the members of the Ummah. The real Turkish nationalists feel themselves responsible of other Muslims and be with them as much as they can. The real Turkish nationalist knows that Allah has bestowen a role on this nation and acts in the responsibility of it which is Islam's itself...I just encourage you to know more Turks..That will be beneficial to you..

    Bro,

    Calm down.

    Turkish people live here in the UK too - and are total failures when it comes to Islam. They drink more alcohol and do more sin than any Muslim minority in the UK.

    Sure, there will be Turks inside of Turkey who are more in tune with the concept of Ummah, but your nations secularist policy, it's degradation if Islam and Muslims, the Turkish Alcoholic Beer EFES, Fratricide, and a whole host of other social diseases have taken FIRM ROOT within Turkey.

    You - and I - both know it.

    Problem with you Anatolian is that you make blanket statements such as this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Anatolian
    The real Turkish nationalist knows that Allah has bestowen a role on this nation and acts in the responsibility of it which is Islam's itself
    Sister Herb has asked you for the hadeeth reference.

    I know you won't be able to produce it. Hence, you have not done so yet.

    And now this thread has gone awry for you and Akeyi among other Turkish Nationalists, Akeyi is claiming that -

    Quote Originally Posted by Akeyi View Post
    This thread is trash
    Without trying to offend, your opinions are what have taken this thread into the trash pile.

    You have not rebutted my claims on the previous page at all.

    I think I necro posted three posts in succession which you and your Turkish National Friends have not been able to refute... and now,
    Quote Originally Posted by Akeyi View Post
    This thread is trash
    Rather conveniently lol

    It's easy to see your embarrassment.

    Next time, come prepared.

    Scimi
    Kemal Ataturk


  8. #106
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    Re: Kemal Ataturk

    THERE TOO MANY THINGS TO SAY FIRST

    IF I SAY BAD MAN IS BAD. NO ONE SAY NOTHING. BECAUSE EVERYONE KNOWS THAT THIS MAN WERE BAD.

    BUT IF SAY GOOD MAN IS BAD. EVERYONE SAYS woowowowowowowowowo. BECAUSE IT IS A IMPORTANT SPEECH.

    IF A BEGGAR GOES BANKRUPT NOONE CARES. IF RICH JEWS GO BANKRUPT EVERYONE LIKE owowowoowowowwo.

    SO THIS THREAD WERE DIAMOND WITH MY ANSWERS BUT WHEN SOME PEOPLE MADE IT TRASH IT BECAME SOMETHING FALLING.

    YOU CANT FALL IF YOU ARE NOT IN HIGHER GROUND.

    I HOPE I MADE MYSELF CLEAR:

  9. #107
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    Re: Kemal Ataturk

    Nope, you just sound like a fool with a loose point he doesn't know how to make.

    Scimi
    Kemal Ataturk


  10. #108
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    Re: Kemal Ataturk

    @Scimitar . I am not the one who is fussy but it is you who are looking always for a flaw to blame Turks with. You even distort the history and combine irrelevant things and serve people to discredict Turkish people. You are the one who attacks not me. So it is you who needs to be calm down not me. I am quite calm.

    I have never claimed that Turkish people are the most religous Muslim people and yet the Turkish minority living in Uk do not give any clue on this matter since there is not a large Turkish population over there. The Turkish community in UK have a more modernized/westernized root. However, if you go to the continental Europe forexample Germany, France or Holland you will see a larger in number and more religous Turkish community. Still same problem. You dont know so much about Turkish people and use the bad examples to discredit Turks. You have a negative obsession about Turks whose reason I dont know.

    I am planning to create a thread dedicated to the Turkish role in Islam but it requires time to collect all information. Just dont be happy for not answering it yet
    Kemal Ataturk

    You harvest what you sow.

  11. #109
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    Re: Kemal Ataturk

    I will end all arguments here with a motto of a turkish writer my friends .


    türk has to be a muslim to be a türk.
    a famous writer said that i translated myself it also shows i have ability to translate. But that is another subject because i dont like to have pride: But now you can say why did you mention it in first place ?

    let me explain maybe i made a mistake while translating because translations can hurt the meaning my friends

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    Re: Kemal Ataturk

    Quote Originally Posted by anatolian View Post
    @Scimitar...[/snip]

    You have not dealt with my claims in my previous post to you, namely: your nation's secularist policy, it's degradation if Islam and Muslims, the Turkish Alcoholic Beer EFES, Fratricide, and a whole host of other social diseases have taken FIRM ROOT within Turkey.

    Until you can contextualise your nations history to understand how it got to be such a failed Islamic nation when it comes to the above and then respond to this, I feel you will be wasting both your and my time.

    Also, Sister Herb is waiting for an hadeeth:

    Where is it?

    Coz I'm also waiting.

    Ad hominem is taking this topic into muddy waters, I'd rather bring it back - show me the hadeeth.

    Scimi
    Kemal Ataturk


  14. #111
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    Re: Kemal Ataturk

    Quote Originally Posted by Akeyi View Post
    I will end all arguments here with a motto of a turkish writer my friends .
    türk has to be a muslim to be a türk.


    I think you make more problems with such statement. Was Kemal Ataturk a Turk? while being atheist? Or Crypto Jew?

    LOL

    Bro, grow some grey matter in that cranium, your logic is embarrassing you.

    Scimi

    Kemal Ataturk


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    Re: Kemal Ataturk

    Quote Originally Posted by scimitar View Post
    [/size][/size][/color]i think you make more problems with such statement. Was kemal ataturk a turk? While being atheist? Or crypto jew?

    Lol

    bro, grow some grey matter in that cranium, your logic is embarrassing you.

    Scimi


    süfyan

    süfyan is the dejjal of islam. Ataturk came in ottoman empire. So this shows us that ottoman empire was state of our prophet sav.

  16. #113
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    Re: Kemal Ataturk

    Quote Originally Posted by Scimitar View Post
    You have not dealt with my claims in my previous post to you, namely: your nation's secularist policy, it's degradation if Islam and Muslims, the Turkish Alcoholic Beer EFES, Fratricide, and a whole host of other social diseases have taken FIRM ROOT within Turkey.

    Until you can contextualise your nations history to understand how it got to be such a failed Islamic nation when it comes to the above and then respond to this, I feel you will be wasting both your and my time.
    I would like to give you a lecture on this topic but I also think that I only waste my time in explaining the things to you on this matter-because you have a negative obsession with Turks and will always seek to find another subject to attack-I will briefely tell you that Turks, in their struggle against the European Christendom, got physically closer to them each time and were effected from their philosophies. As a result of this they got corrupted religiously in time. So we have today's less religious Turkish people. But what you fail to understand is that other Muslim nations are not also like angels and there are plenty of Turkish people who are still religious.

    Your putting "fratricide" and "efes beers" which are tottally irrelevant subjects in the same sentence repeatedly and adding "a whole lot of other social diseases"-which I have no idea what they are-just show your dishonesty.

    Let me explain it again. My claim of Turkish nationalism do not necessarily tell you that we Turkish people are "the best creatures of Allah". My claim is that Turks served and will continue to serve Islam and a nationalist Muslim Turk must know his/her mission regarding this and live accordingly which is "Islam's itself". This kind of nationalism do not seperate Turkish people from the ummah as you have such an opinion but indeed promote brotherhood. Today if you go to Bosnia, Circassia, Algeria etc. they will all remmeber Turkish people with good memories. You are just ignorant to see this. Actually what you do is an anti-Turk counter nationalism..

    Quote Originally Posted by Scimitar View Post
    Also, Sister Herb is waiting for an hadeeth:

    Where is it?

    Coz I'm also waiting.

    Ad hominem is taking this topic into muddy waters, I'd rather bring it back - show me the hadeeth.

    Scimi
    I think she asked it to the audience not directly to me. You or another one can answer her until I create my thread inshallah. Because there are many hadith nnot only one..
    Kemal Ataturk

    You harvest what you sow.

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