some common shirk committed by people

I assume you are a wahabi or a salafi muslim.

What really bugs me is that appearantly everybody here exactly knows which group is committing shirk, which group is kuffar and which group isn't.
You claim that sunnis committing shirk because they obey their imams and leaders. and you are trying to back your claim up with a hadeeth about Muhammed (sas) who said that referring to jews and christians.

However there is a quraan text who goes as followed:

O you who have faith! Obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those vested with authority among you.1159

Now of course muftis and ulamas can give false fatwas. they are only humans...they are not even prophets. One can assume that muftis and ulamas who are known with their knowledge and trustworthyness that the mistakes they make is not on purpose and not to mislead everyone.

The second thing I want to point out is that a lot of people here have the opinion that everybody needs a sheikch in order to understand Islaam.
Especially the Quraan has such deep hidden meanings of the verses that the common layman cannot comprehend. so appearantly he always need to seek the opinion of his sheikch.

So, which one is the correct way?
can we interpret the Quraan and hadeeth by ourselves or do we need to ask an alim about it?
And should we obey this ulama or should we stick to what we know?

If you ask me, neither of the two.
We can interpret the Quraan and hadeeth for ourselves partially, either just like that or by using tafsirs.
The part we cannot interpret, we can always ask our imam or sheikch and ask for evidence.
The people who cannot comprehend the evidence, just obey the opinion of the sheikch,
The ones who can, should check the validity of the sheikchs answer and not follow blindly.

Again, the imam or sheikch is only a human and can make mistakes.

There are so many other hidden shirks no one speaks about.

For men it's being ultras football club fan. If you hear their songs, it's pure worship of the club.

Being obsessed by anything and believing or acting as if anything besides Allah has any power is shirk. This could be anything. Example: very typical among Muslims is believing that Jinns have power. You constantly doing ruqyah but still having troubles. Reason - Allah leaves us to what we believe.

format_quote Originally Posted by Flos

There are so many other hidden shirks no one speaks about.

For men it's being ultras football club fan. If you hear their songs, it's pure worship of the club.

Being obsessed by anything and believing or acting as if anything besides Allah has any power is shirk. This could be anything. Example: very typical among Muslims is believing that Jinns have power. You constantly doing ruqyah but still having troubles. Reason - Allah leaves us to what we believe.

Depending on what you mean by "having power". Everyone has some power of course. And compared to humans, jinns, ibliss and the angels are all very powerful beings.
However none of them can create things out of nothing. None of them exist beyond the realm of time. Only Allah is capable of that. He is the all powerful.

But yes, many things can be hidden shirk. We Turks carry those blue stones around or hang them everywhere, to protect us, our house, car, or whatever from the evil eye...pure shirk.

Of course blindly following and obeying an Imam or sheikch can be shirk...but is not always the case.

Things are not that black and white. it really depends on the case.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit

Depending on what you mean by "having power". Everyone has some power of course. And compared to humans, jinns, ibliss and the angels are all very powerful beings.
However none of them can create things out of nothing. None of them exist beyond the realm of time. Only Allah is capable of that. He is the all powerful.

But yes, many things can be hidden shirk. We Turks carry those blue stones around or hang them everywhere, to protect us, our house, car, or whatever from the evil eye...pure shirk.

Of course blindly following and obeying an Imam or sheikch can be shirk...but is not always the case.

Things are not that black and white. it really depends on the case.

There is difference between abilities given by Allah and power itself. Power as in MashaAllah or as in explained in surah Baqarah, 148 ayah:

And every one has a direction to which he should turn, therefore hasten to (do) good works; wherever you are, Allah will bring you all together; surely Allah has power over all things.

Actually, it's very explained by Allah and Prophet saw in various of Quranic ayahs and hadith.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit

I assume you are a wahabi or a salafi muslim.

What really bugs me is that appearantly everybody here exactly knows which group is committing shirk, which group is kuffar and which group isn't.
You claim that sunnis committing shirk because they obey their imams and leaders. and you are trying to back your claim up with a hadeeth about Muhammed (sas) who said that referring to jews and christians.

However there is a quraan text who goes as followed:

O you who have faith! Obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those vested with authority among you.1159

Now of course muftis and ulamas can give false fatwas. they are only humans...they are not even prophets. One can assume that muftis and ulamas who are known with their knowledge and trustworthyness that the mistakes they make is not on purpose and not to mislead everyone.

The second thing I want to point out is that a lot of people here have the opinion that everybody needs a sheikch in order to understand Islaam.
Especially the Quraan has such deep hidden meanings of the verses that the common layman cannot comprehend. so appearantly he always need to seek the opinion of his sheikch.

So, which one is the correct way?
can we interpret the Quraan and hadeeth by ourselves or do we need to ask an alim about it?
And should we obey this ulama or should we stick to what we know?

If you ask me, neither of the two.
We can interpret the Quraan and hadeeth for ourselves partially, either just like that or by using tafsirs.
The part we cannot interpret, we can always ask our imam or sheikch and ask for evidence.
The people who cannot comprehend the evidence, just obey the opinion of the sheikch,
The ones who can, should check the validity of the sheikchs answer and not follow blindly.

Again, the imam or sheikch is only a human and can make mistakes.

As salamu alaykum.
I agree with u. We need sheikh to understand fiqh, Qur'an, hadith etc. But we don't need just"ulama" , we need "ulama e haq" (scholars of truth). At this time, we cannot call anyone who appears to be sheikh "ulama" bcuz we have a whole bunch of misguided scholars. And this is why if we follow them tip by tip(even if its wrong), we are worshipping them. For ex. Lets take the example of four imams. They were true ulama. They said if we find any sahih hadith contracting their opinions, we should follow sahih hadith, and NOT them. So u see, these are true scholars. But what some people do is they follow them even if they find sahih hadith contradicting their opinion. So this is called worshipping them, termed as "Taqleed". Today we have youtube celebrities or dollar scholars i should say. They are doing their work of misguiding people. They arent telling us about the " whole" islam. They keep saying "peace, peace, peace" when jihad is compulsory for all and if we follow them in this, we are blindly following them. Ibn taymiyyah was asked where will we find scholars of truth? He said "In prison, or undercover". And do we think in our time when non muslims are in so much power, they will let the scholars of truth speak publicly? Will they let them be on youtube? Will they not remove them from youtube for their " policy"? Will they not imprison them? Even the four imams were imprisoned, so do we think the "true"scholars at this time will be let speaking the truth. We really need to leave those youtube celebrities who have nothing to do but impress kuffar!! I have a lot to say but ill leave it here.

format_quote Originally Posted by Yrvhere?

As salamu alaykum.
I agree with u. We need sheikh to understand fiqh, Qur'an, hadith etc. But we don't need just"ulama" , we need "ulama e haq" (scholars of truth). At this time, we cannot call anyone who appears to be sheikh "ulama" bcuz we have a whole bunch of misguided scholars. And this is why if we follow them tip by tip(even if its wrong), we are worshipping them. For ex. Lets take the example of four imams. They were true ulama. They said if we find any sahih hadith contracting their opinions, we should follow sahih hadith, and NOT them. So u see, these are true scholars. But what some people do is they follow them even if they find sahih hadith contradicting their opinion. So this is called worshipping them, termed as "Taqleed". Today we have youtube celebrities or dollar scholars i should say. They are doing their work of misguiding people. They arent telling us about the " whole" islam. They keep saying "peace, peace, peace" when jihad is compulsory for all and if we follow them in this, we are blindly following them. Ibn taymiyyah was asked where will we find scholars of truth? He said "In prison, or undercover". And do we think in our time when non muslims are in so much power, they will let the scholars of truth speak publicly? Will they let them be on youtube? Will they not remove them from youtube for their " policy"? Will they not imprison them? Even the four imams were imprisoned, so do we think the "true"scholars at this time will be let speaking the truth. We really need to leave those youtube celebrities who have nothing to do but impress kuffar!! I have a lot to say but ill leave it here.

So, what are you saying exactly?

That in theory you agree with me, however you cannot trust any scholar nowadays, therefore you should interpret the Quraan and hadeeth yourself and absolutely ask no advice of these modern scholars?

Can we not ask multiple scholars about what they think about it...ask them what they base their opinion on and cross check which seems plausible and which seems fabricated?
Because that's what I would do.

My knowledge about Islaam is very limited unfortunately. therefore I do depend on answers from someone with more wisdom about Islaam...
because verifying that answer against evidence or against answers from other wise people is much easier than try to find the answer on my own.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit

I assume you are a wahabi or a salafi muslim.

What really bugs me is that appearantly everybody here exactly knows which group is committing shirk, which group is kuffar and which group isn't.
You claim that sunnis committing shirk because they obey their imams and leaders. and you are trying to back your claim up with a hadeeth about Muhammed (sas) who said that referring to jews and christians.

However there is a quraan text who goes as followed:

O you who have faith! Obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those vested with authority among you.1159

Now of course muftis and ulamas can give false fatwas. they are only humans...they are not even prophets. One can assume that muftis and ulamas who are known with their knowledge and trustworthyness that the mistakes they make is not on purpose and not to mislead everyone.

The second thing I want to point out is that a lot of people here have the opinion that everybody needs a sheikch in order to understand Islaam.
Especially the Quraan has such deep hidden meanings of the verses that the common layman cannot comprehend. so appearantly he always need to seek the opinion of his sheikch.

So, which one is the correct way?
can we interpret the Quraan and hadeeth by ourselves or do we need to ask an alim about it?
And should we obey this ulama or should we stick to what we know?

If you ask me, neither of the two.
We can interpret the Quraan and hadeeth for ourselves partially, either just like that or by using tafsirs.
The part we cannot interpret, we can always ask our imam or sheikch and ask for evidence.
The people who cannot comprehend the evidence, just obey the opinion of the sheikch,
The ones who can, should check the validity of the sheikchs answer and not follow blindly.

Again, the imam or sheikch is only a human and can make mistakes.

We have lessons to learn from Jews and Christians , especially those mistakes they committed and were mentioned in Qur’an . Verse 9:31 is one of them . We give our Ulamas the status of god , what they say we follow same like Jews did and raised them in status of divine lawmakers .

We still need the help of Ulama but we also have the duty to ourselves that we demand that these Ulama should guide us with the reference of Qur’an not by their own wit and will . Ahamadi Ulama ( hundreds and thousands of them) reached to the consensus that Mirza Golam Qadiani was a Prophet and their followers obey them . It contradicts the Qur’an . Sunni are happy with 4 sects and their Ulama gave them Fatwa that you have to abide by these madhhabs . It also contradicts the Qur’an directly . Bottom-line is , we sell our brain and intelligent to our Ulamas . We could be a Ph.D holder and could read volumes of volumes of complicated subjects on science and technology but we can not open the Qur’an just to see where is what ! All we want to be spoon-fed .

BTW , you hide some parts of the verse of the Qur’an you mentioned. The full the verse reads like :

[004:059] O ye who believe! Obey God, and obey the Apostle, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to God and His Apostle, if ye do believe in God and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

And there you go , ‘ If you differ in anything…..”and our Ulama differ in almost everything ….

format_quote Originally Posted by Abrars

We have lessons to learn from Jews and Christians , especially those mistakes they committed and were mentioned in Qur’an . Verse 9:31 is one of them . We give our Ulamas the status of god , what they say we follow same like Jews did and raised them in status of divine lawmakers .

We still need the help of Ulama but we also have the duty to ourselves that we demand that these Ulama should guide us with the reference of Qur’an not by their own wit and will . Ahamadi Ulama ( hundreds and thousands of them) reached to the consensus that Mirza Golam Qadiani was a Prophet and their followers obey them . It contradicts the Qur’an . Sunni are happy with 4 sects and their Ulama gave them Fatwa that you have to abide by these madhhabs . It also contradicts the Qur’an directly . Bottom-line is , we sell our brain and intelligent to our Ulamas . We could be a Ph.D holder and could read volumes of volumes of complicated subjects on science and technology but we can not open the Qur’an just to see where is what ! All we want to be spoon-fed .

BTW , you hide some parts of the verse of the Qur’an you mentioned. The full the verse reads like :

[004:059] O ye who believe! Obey God, and obey the Apostle, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to God and His Apostle, if ye do believe in God and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

And there you go , ‘ If you differ in anything…..”and our Ulama differ in almost everything ….

No dear brother, I did not hide anything. I honostly didn't notice that part...But good you noticed it. Exactly that part means that you should still obey, even if you differ in that...unless of course you are commanded to sin. when you witness clear Kufr about which you have clear proof from Allah, you should not obey anymore.

Tafsir ibn Kathir is pretty clear about this verse:

The Necessity of Obeying the Rulers in Obedience to Allah
Al-Bukhari recorded that Ibn `Abbas said that the Ayah,

﴿أَطِيعُواْ اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُواْ الرَّسُولَ وَأُوْلِى الاٌّمْرِ مِنْكُمْ﴾

(Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, and those of you who are in authority.) "Was revealed about `Abdullah bin Hudhafah bin Qays bin `Adi, who the Messenger of Allah sent on a military expedition.'' This statement was collected by the Group, with the exception of Ibn Majah At-Tirmidhi said, "Hasan, Gharib''. Imam Ahmad recorded that `Ali said, "The Messenger of Allah sent a troop under the command of a man from Al-Ansar. When they left, he became angry with them for some reason and said to them, `Has not the Messenger of Allah commanded you to obey me' They said, `Yes.' He said, `Collect some wood,' and then he started a fire with the wood, saying, `I command you to enter the fire.' The people almost entered the fire, but a young man among them said, `You only ran away from the Fire to Allah's Messenger. Therefore, do not rush until you go back to Allah's Messenger, and if he commands you to enter it, then enter it.' When they went back to Allah's Messenger , they told him what had happened, and the Messenger said,

«لَوْ دَخَلْتُمُوهَا مَا خَرَجْتُمْ مِنْهَا أَبَدًا، إِنَّمَا الطَّاعَةُ فِي الْمَعْرُوف»

(Had you entered it, you would never have departed from it. Obedience is only in righteousness.)'' This Hadith is recorded in the Two Sahihs. Abu Dawud recorded that `Abdullah bin `Umar said that the Messenger of Allah said,

«السَّمْعُ وَالطَّاعَةُ عَلَى الْمَرْءِ الْمُسْلِمِ فِيمَا أَحَبَّ وَكَرِهَ، مَا لَمْ يُؤْمَرْ بِمَعْصِيَةٍ، فَإِذَا أُمِرَ بِمَعْصِيَةٍ فَلَا سَمْعَ وَلَا طَاعَة»

(The Muslim is required to hear and obey in that which he likes and dislikes, unless he was commanded to sin. When he is commanded with sin, then there is no hearing or obeying.) This Hadith is recorded in the Two Sahihs. `Ubadah bin As-Samit said, "We gave our pledge to Allah's Messenger to hear and obey (our leaders), while active and otherwise, in times of ease and times of difficulty, even if we were deprived of our due shares, and to not dispute this matter (leadership) with its rightful people. The Prophet said,

«إِلَّا أَنْ تَرَوْا كُفْرًا بَوَاحًا، عِنْدَكُمْ فِيهِ مِنَ اللهِ بُرْهَان»

(Except when you witness clear Kufr about which you have clear proof from Allah.)'' This Hadith is recorded in the Two Sahihs. Another Hadith narrated by Anas states that the Messenger of Allah said,

«اسْمَعُوا وَأَطِيعُوا، وَإِنْ أُمِّرَ عَلَيْكُمْ عَبْدٌحَبَشِيٌّ كَأَنَّ رَأْسَهُ زَبِيبَة»

(Hear and obey (your leaders), even if an Ethiopian slave whose head is like a raisin, is made your chief.) Al-Bukhari recorded this Hadith. Umm Al-Husayn said that she heard the Messenger of Allah giving a speech during the Farewell Hajj, in which he said;

«وَلَوِ اسْتُعْمِلَ عَلَيْكُمْ عَبْدٌيَقُودُكُمْ بِكِتَابِ اللهِ، اسْمَعُوا لَهُ وَأَطِيعُوا»

(Even if a slave was appointed over you, and he rules you with Allah's Book, then listen to him and obey him.) Muslim recorded this Hadith. In another narration with Muslim, the Prophet said,

«عَبْدًا حَبَشِيًّا مَجْدُوعًا»

(Even if an Ethiopian slave, whose nose was mutilated...) In the Two Sahihs, it is recorded that Abu Hurayrah said that the Messenger of Allah said,

«مَنْ أَطَاعَنِي فَقَدْ أَطَاعَ اللهَ، وَمَنْ عَصَانِي فَقَدْ عَصَى اللهَ، وَمَنْ أَطَاعَ أَمِيرِي فَقَدْ أَطَاعَنِي، وَمَنْ عَصَى أَمِيرِي فَقَدْ عَصَانِي»

(Whoever obeys me, obeys Allah, and whoever disobeys me, disobeys Allah. Whoever obeys my commander, obeys me, and whoever disobeys my commander, disobeys me.) This is why Allah said,

﴿أَطِيعُواْ اللَّهَ﴾

(Obey Allah), adhere to His Book,

﴿وَأَطِيعُواْ الرَّسُولَ﴾

(and obey the Messenger), adhere to his Sunnah,

﴿وَأُوْلِى الاٌّمْرِ مِنْكُمْ﴾

(And those of you who are in authority) in the obedience to Allah which they command you, not what constitutes disobedience of Allah, for there is no obedience to anyone in disobedience to Allah, as we mentioned in the authentic Hadith,

«إِنَّمَا الطَّاعَةُ فِي الْمَعْرُوف»

(Obedience is only in righteousness.)
The Necessity of Referring to the Qur'an and Sunnah for Judgment

Allah said,

﴿فَإِن تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِى شَىْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ﴾

((And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger). Mujahid and several others among the Salaf said that the Ayah means, "(Refer) to the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Messenger.'' This is a command from Allah that whatever areas the people dispute about, whether major or minor areas of the religion, they are required to refer to the Qur'an and Sunnah for judgment concerning these disputes. In another Ayah, Allah said,

﴿وَمَا اخْتَلَفْتُمْ فِيهِ مِن شَىْءٍ فَحُكْمُهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ﴾

(And in whatsoever you differ, the decision thereof is with Allah). Therefore, whatever the Book and Sunnah decide and testify to the truth of, then it, is the plain truth. What is beyond truth, save falsehood This is why Allah said, u

﴿إِن كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الاٌّخِرِ﴾

(if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day.) meaning, refer the disputes and conflicts that arise between you to the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Messenger for judgment. Allah's statement,

﴿إِن كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الاٌّخِرِ﴾

(if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day. ) indicates that those who do not refer to the Book and Sunnah for judgment in their disputes, are not believers in Allah or the Last Day. Allah said,

﴿ذَلِكَ خَيْرٌ﴾

(That is better) meaning, referring to the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Messenger for judgment in various disputes is better,

﴿وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلاً﴾

(and more suitable for final determination.) meaning, "Has a better end and destination,'' as As-Suddi and several others have stated while Mujahid said, "Carries a better reward.''

You know what! It's so good to see that Muslims are scared to commit shirk. May Allah protect us all and guide us all. Jazakallahu Khair to all!

format_quote Originally Posted by Abrars

Sunni are happy with 4 sects and their Ulama gave them Fatwa that you have to abide by these madhhabs . It also contradicts the Qur’an directly .

So I do not exactly understand how this contradicts the Quran. Could you please elaborate? I am a sunni myself of the Hanafi madhab. I do not worship Abu Hanifa as a prophet or God,
I do not pray to Abu Hanifa or whatever...I am just following that madhab, because it is a secure road...it is like a nice paved road, easy to follow...

And according to this verse, it is not wrong because Abu Hanifa is not a kuffar, and does not command us to sin.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit

No dear brother, I did not hide anything. I honostly didn't notice that part...But good you noticed it. Exactly that part means that you should still obey, even if you differ in that...unless of course you are commanded to sin. when you witness clear Kufr about which you have clear proof from Allah, you should not obey anymore.

Tafsir ibn Kathir is pretty clear about this verse:

Forgive me my brother for accusing you thinking you were hiding the verse . I didn't know you did it unnoticed . Yes the verse is quite clear . The final authority is ALLAH (swt) and the Messenger (saw) . The rest Waleel Umar could err and differ . In that case leave them from the equation and refer back to the absolute authority of ALLAH (swt) and Prophet (saw) as the verse proposed .

format_quote Originally Posted by Flos

You know what! It's so good to see that Muslims are scared to commit shirk. May Allah protect us all and guide us all. Jazakallahu Khair to all!

That is true . BarakALLAH.

format_quote Originally Posted by Abrars

Imam Abu Hanifa (rh) was a paramount scholar of Islamic fiqh . He never said to open a sect/cult in his name and be called Hanafi . Quran overwhelmingly instructed not to divide in sects/madhab/firqah in religion . But we did it . We are divided into so many sects in Islam . ALLAH swt clearly called us Muslim and prefers us to be called Muslim only , while we have a compulsory subtitle , eg, Hanafi , Shafii , Hamabali , Salafi , Jafri etc. Do these not contradict the Qur'an , my brother ?

No, in all honousty...from the bottom of my heart i do not think it is. Sects think they are better than others. "Other sects are wrong...my sect is the only right one" is a typical thought of the average sect member.

However that is not true in madhabs. There is just a difference in opinion. Difference in details. Everything fard is the same. I am a Hanafi but I do not think the Hanafi is the right madhab and the others are wrong.
The other madhabs are just as correct as Hanafi.
However Shia, Ahmadiyyah, wahabis, salafis etc, do think they are the better sects and like to differentiate themselves from the majority of muslims.
I do not want to attack anyone...but that is what I think about it. Correct me please if Im seeing it wrong.

Ow and besides...the four scholars...each went their own way to spread Islam...four different humans...with four opinions...not copies of each other....of course you will get 4 different schools...i think they did a very, very good job not to create 4 different sects...they only differed in detail from each other. They were humble...constantly afraid of saying something wrong.
They were very aware that everything they say wrong would be the fundaments of a whole new religion...therefore very very careful and accurate in their answers.