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Mingling and Mixing of sexes

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    Mingling and Mixing of sexes

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    The terms “mixing” and “mingling” are used frequently in discussions on the subject of male-female relations in Islam, but these terms were not used at the time the Qur’ân was revealed. For this reason, we cannot find direct references in the Qur’ân and Sunnah that say “free mixing between men and women is unlawful”. However, this does not mean that such conduct is permissible or that Islam has failed to address the matter. Islam has detailed the relationship between men and women in the most precise and exacting terms. It has set down clear guidelines to show men and women how they must conduct themselves with one another. From all of this, there can be no question that Islam prohibits the free mixing of the sexes.

    If we look at every verse of the Qur’ân in search of a direct statement prohibiting a child from beating his parents, we will never find it. It is not there. However, the Qur’ân says: “Do not even say to them ‘uff’.” Can any rational person, after hearing this verse, claim that it is permissible for a son to beat up his mother and father?

    Likewise, Islam has forbidden a woman from putting on perfume and passing in front of men. It has prohibited her from striking her feet on the ground when she walks to reveal the jingle of her hidden ornaments. Can anyone, after considering these and so many other rulings, assume that women and men are allowed to freely mingle and mix with one another?

    The texts of the Qur’ân and Sunnah are limited in number. If we were to abstain from forbidding anything that is not directly stipulated by word in the texts, we would be rejecting the validity of analogous reasoning in Islamic Law. This would leave countless matters of life without an Islamic legal ruling. This would strip Islamic Law of one of its greatest qualities, which is its relevance to all times and circumstances.

    It is absolutely clear from the texts that Islam does not allow men and women to meet each other whenever and however they like. It has placed clear regulations and restrictions upon such behavior and has defined the limits of interaction between men and women. Moreover, Islam has closed all doors that lead to temptation and promiscuity.

    When we consider all of the laws governing the relationship between men and women in Islam, we are forced to come to the conclusion that Islam forbids any mixing between the sexes that might provide even the remotest possibility of temptation. Scholars of Islam throughout history have fully appreciated this fact. We can see it evidenced in the writings of the great jurists:

    Al-Sarakhsî writes: “The judge should try women separately from men since people tend to crowd together in the courtroom. It is quite obvious that the mixing together of men and women under such crowded conditions is conducive to temptation and other distasteful consequences.” [al-Mabsût (16/80)]

    Al-Nawawî writes: “Ibn al-Mundhir and others maintain that it is a matter of unanimous agreement that women are not obligated to attend the Jumu`ah prayers. However, his argument that this is because it brings about the mixing of women and men is not correct. The attendance of women at the Jumu`ah prayers does not necessarily bring about such mixing since the women stay behind the men.” [al-Majmû` (4/350)]

    Al-Nawawî also writes: “One of the vilest innovations, that some ignorant people today are involved in, is the habit of lighting candles on Mount `Arafah on the ninth night. This behavior is gravely misguided and is full of improper goings-on such as the mixing of men and women.” [al-Majmû`: (8/140)]

    In the law book entitled al-Fawâkih al-Dawânî, there is a discussion of when it is permissible to refuse an invitation to a wedding party. It says: “An invitation may be refused if there is any clear wrongdoing at the party, like the mixing of men and women.” [al-Fawâkih al-Dawânî (2/322)]

    When scholars warn against the free mixing of men and women, they are not talking about the mere presence of men and women together in the same place. This is something that is definitely not prohibited by Islamic Law. Men and women gathered in the same place at the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him) in the mosque and in the marketplace. They walked down the same roads and public thoroughfares.

    The mere presence of men and women in the same area is not a great cause for temptation. It would be wrong to treat this as unlawful mixing, since the reason for prohibiting free mixing does not exist in such circumstances. If someone were to prohibit men and women from frequenting the same public places under the pretext of preventing temptation, this would be taking matters to an extreme and imposing a restriction that is unduly severe. Such a policy is, moreover, unnatural and would impose great hardships on people’s lives.

    At the same time, some circumstances are indisputably cases of unlawful mixing. This would include situations where women and men are crowded together so that there is a danger of their making physical contact. Equally unlawful would be any occasion where unrelated women and men are seated next to one another. Under these circumstances, desires are kindled and temptations are greater and regrettable things happen, as is seen time and again in co-ed schools and mixed social events.

    The same can be said for any repeated acquaintance between men and women. Repeated meetings break down the barriers between men and women and allow a relationship to develop between them.

    We cannot compare situations like these to the general presence of men and women at shops and other open public places, especially when women are accompanied by their family. In such cases, there is no intimacy, no crowding, and no reason for suspicion. Preventing women from public places frequented by men in order to prevent temptation would be taking things to an extreme.

    A woman is commanded in Islam not to come too close to men. She is not, however, prohibited from going to places where men are present as long as she does not approach them or place herself in a position where she is alone with them.

    There can be no doubt that preventative legislation is an important part of Islamic Law. There are numerous rulings in Islam that are preventative in nature. However, this does not mean that we can legislate against every remote possibility of wrongdoing that we can think of. Doing so would be a violation of Islam’s tolerance and magnanimity and its ease of application. It would place too great a burden upon the believers.

    People might differ as to the degree of mixing that is prohibited. We can, nonetheless, get a good approximation of proper limits by reviewing the laws of Islam that govern the relationship between men and women. The sacred texts provides ample evidence about how and when men and women can meet, how women should dress and conduct themselves when they go outside, and many other pertinent matters. It is impossible for free mixing between men and women to occur if Islamic Law is properly observed.

    The body of evidence showing that women and men should not mix freely with one another is quite large. We will briefly mention some of it:

    1. Allah says: “And when you ask the ladies for anything, ask them from before a screen. That makes for greater purity for your hearts and for theirs.” [Sûrah al-Ahzâb: 53] For women to go about uncovered in the company of men is inarguably a gross violation of the command given in this verse.

    2. It is prohibited for men to join women in one place in the absence of at least one of the women’s close male relatives. The Prophet (peace be upon him) forbade men and women from being alone together. He said: “Never is a man alone with a woman except that Satan is the third party with them.”

    The Prophet (peace be upon him) also said: “Do not enter into the company of women.”
    A man then asked him: “What about her male in-laws?”

    The Prophet (peace be upon him) replied: “The in-law is the most dangerous”.

    This hadîth emphasizes the importance of being wary of in-laws since they are likely to have more opportunities to be alone with the woman and to see her as others do not get the opportunity to see her.

    The private meeting between a man and an unchaperoned woman is one of the serious forms of mixing that can take place between the sexes. Temptations are worse when the people know that they are shielded from the sight of others.

    Ibn Daqîq al-`خd makes the following important observation: “We must take into consideration whether or not the man’s arrival at a place brings about a situation where he is alone with the woman. If it does not do so, it is not unlawful for him to go there.” (2/181)

    This point was made clear by the Prophet (peace be upon him) when he said: “No man should enter into the presence of a woman after this day unless he is accompanied by one or two other men.” [Sahîh Muslim]

    3. There are numerous evidences that the woman may not shake hands with men who are not among her closest relatives.

    The Prophet (peace be upon him) never shook hands with an unrelated woman. Umaymah b. Raqîqah said: “I came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) with a group of the women of Madinah to swear fealty for Islam. The women informed Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) that they wished to swear fealty to him. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: ‘I do not shake hands with women. The way I accept the pledge from one woman is the same as with one hundred women.” [al-Muwatta’, Sunan al-Tirmidhî, Sunan al-Nasa’î and Sunan Ibn Majah].

    The Prophet (peace be upon him) also said: “It is better for one of you to be pierced by a steel pin in his head than to touch the hand of a strange woman.” [Al-Mundhirî mentions that all the narrators of this hadîth are trustworthy. Al-Albânî classifies it as a good hadîth in Ghâyah al-Marâm (no. 403).]

    4. The Qur’ân clearly forbids women from being soft of speech while talking to men. Allah says: “Be not too complaisant of speech, lest one in whose heart is a disease should be moved with desire: but speak with a speech (that is) proper.” [Sûrah al-Ahzâb: 32].

    5. There is evidence that women may not sit with strange men while wearing perfume. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Any woman who puts on perfume then goes and passes by some men to let them find her scent is a type of adulteress.” [Musnad Ahmad, Sunan al-Tirmidhî, Sunan Abî Dâwûd, and Sunan al-Nasâ’î with a sound chain of transmission]

    6. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “The best of rows in prayer for the man is the first row and the worst for him is the last, and the best of rows for the women is the last row and the worst for her is the first.” [Sahîh Muslim].

    If this advice is being given for men and women when they are in their purest frame of mind and engaged in prayer, then how should they be expected to conduct themselves in other situations?

    Ibn `Abbâs relates that he prayed one of the `خd prayers with the Prophet (peace be upon him). He informs us that the Prophet (peace be upon him) prayed and offered a sermon, then he went to the women and offered to them a separate sermon, admonishing them and encouraging them to give charity. [Sahîh al-Bukhârî]

    Ibn Hajr offers the following observations about this hadîth: “The fact that he went to the women separately shows that the women were assembled separately from the men and were not mixed in with them.” [Fath al-Bârî (2/466)]

    7. Once the Prophet (peace be upon him) saw men and women mixing together on the road upon their departure from the mosque. He said to the women: “Hold back a bit. You do not have to walk in the middle of the road. You may keep to the sides.” The narrator of the hadîth commented that after that time, women would come so close to the buildings that their dresses would sometime cling to the walls.” [Sunan Abî Dâwûd with a sound chain of transmission]

    Ibn `Umar related that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said about one of the mosque’s doors: “We should leave this door exclusively for women to use.” Ibn `Umar, until he died, never again entered through that door. [Sunan Abî Dâwûd with a sound chain of transmission. Al-Albânî says: “This hadîth is authentic according to the conditions set down by Bukhârî and Muslim.”]

    Umm Salamah said: “When the Prophet (peace be upon him) completed the prayer, the women would get up to leave. He would then wait awhile before standing.” Ibn Shahâb said: “I believe that he waited for a while to give the women an opportunity to depart before the men.” [Sahîh al-Bukhârî]

    Ibn Hajr comments: “In the hadîth, we see that it is disliked for men and women to mix on the road. How much more, then, should such mixing be avoided inside of houses.” [Fath al-Bârî (2/336)]

    8. It was related in al-Bukhârî that women at the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him) did not circumambulate the Ka`bah along with the men. `آ’ishah used to go around the Ka`bah at a good distance from the men and avoided mixing with them. Once another woman bade to her to go forward with her so they could touch the corner of the Ka`bah. `آ’ishah refused to do so. [Sahîh al-Bukhârî]

    One of `آishah’s handmaidens came to her and said: “O Mother of believers, I went around the Ka`bah seven times and touched the corner twice or trice”.

    `آishah replied: “May Allah not reward you for pushing your way through men. It would have been sufficient for you to you to say “Allah Akbar” as you passed by”. [Musnad al-Shâfi`î]

    There are two things that this shows us. First, `آ’ishah did not hesitate to circumambulate the Ka`bah when there were men around, nor did she forbid other women from doing so. She only refrained from crowding into men and mixing with them and this is what she prohibited others from doing. This shows us in the clearest of terms that the mere presence of men and women in the same place is not prohibited.

    Second, the mixing and contact between men and women circumambulating the Ka`bah that unavoidably occurs during Hajj under today’s crowded conditions cannot be used as proof that such mixing is generally allowed. Firstly, the practice of the people does not constitute any sort of evidence in Islamic Law. Secondly, what is happening today during Hajj is unavoidable. It is permitted out of necessity and cannot be made into a general rule for all times and circumstances. It would be fruitless for us to try and demand that women avoid contact with men while circumambulating the Ka`bah during Hajj. It would be equally impossible to ask them to delay their circumambulations until the crowds depart, especially since the women on Hajj are always accompanied by the others who came with them who cannot be forced to wait around.

    It is pure sophistry for anyone to use these exceptional circumstances to argue that men and women are allowed to mingle under circumstances where no necessity exists. It is just as baseless as taking the other extreme and declaring the mere presence or men and women in the same place to be unlawful mixing.

    We will conclude by mentioning a few verses of the Qur’ân. Allah says: “Nor come nigh to adultery”. In this verse, Allah does not say “Do not commit adultery” but tells us not even to come close to it. This means that everything that may seduce a person to fall into adultery is unlawful.

    Moreover, Allah says: “Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them.” and says: “And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty.” [Sûrah al-Nûr: 30-31] This shows us how men and women are to conduct themselves.

    (www.islamtoday.com)

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    Re: Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    im gonna read dis post carefully now..shuld be interesting. subhanAllah many people make excuses wen it cums 2 free mixing...the most famous ones: my intentions are pure..LOL wat a joke!!!!...

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    Re: Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    interesting i've learnt new thing in islam. thank you

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    Re: Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    Likewise, Islam has forbidden a woman from putting on perfume and passing in front of men. It has prohibited her from striking her feet on the ground when she walks to reveal the jingle of her hidden ornaments.
    Thats perfumes and anklets not allowed outside or in front if non-mehrams.
    This would include situations where women and men are crowded together so that there is a danger of their making physical contact.
    That happens tooooooo much nowadays....
    4. The Qur’ân clearly forbids women from being soft of speech while talking to men. Allah says: “Be not too complaisant of speech, lest one in whose heart is a disease should be moved with desire: but speak with a speech (that is) proper.” [Sûrah al-Ahzâb: 32].
    Subhanallah........Allah knows best.
    `Aishah replied: “May Allah not reward you for pushing your way through men. It would have been sufficient for you to you to say “Allah Akbar” as you passed by”. [Musnad al-Shâfi`î]
    Subhanallah......Truly Allah is great!

    Moreover, Allah says: “Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them.” and says: “And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty.” [Sûrah al-Nûr: 30-31]
    If only Muslims nowadays would understand!!

    Jazakallah for the post sis it was most informative

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    Re: Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    Mashallah a gr8 post may we all take a lesson frm this Ameen

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    Re: Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    Good post. Stay at home and none of this should ever be a problem.

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    Re: Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    format_quote Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~ View Post
    The texts of the Qur’ân and Sunnah are limited in number. If we were to abstain from forbidding anything that is not directly stipulated by word in the texts, we would be rejecting the validity of analogous reasoning in Islamic Law. [/url])
    This is a very important point isn't it?

    I'd be interested to see what people here think of that...

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    Re: Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    MashaAllah! an excellent article
    i've just skimmed through it, but i'll have to print it out and read it more carefully.
    Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    My heart, so precious,
    I won't trade for a hundred thousand souls.
    Your one smile takes it for free.Rumi

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    Re: Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    format_quote Originally Posted by dishdash View Post
    This is a very important point isn't it? I'd be interested to see what people here think of that...
    I disagree with the qiyâs because it is flawed. The arguments are flawed because the theory is unsound.

    First, the Qur'ân says that we are not to make harâm that which is not harâm, yet what is being said?

    Second, why are there ahadith saying a woman should not flaunt herself in public if she isn't allowed around men? There's a flaw in thinking there, I think.

    Third, a large percentage of human beings are not of one sex or another - one in 1000 is visibly intersexed at birth, and even more are intersexed without immediate visible sign. How can we separate the sexes when they are not even clearly demarkated in real life (i.e. outside of a Jurist's head)? Do we just ignore all those people who are born differently?

    And what about people whose gender does not match their bodies? Muslim societies have accepted, for example, women working and living as men because of circumstance in the Balkans. Is a woman flaunting herself if she has to go to work with an entire crowd of men without a mahram - there being no mahram for her? The answer has been no, because a working woman is treated like any other person in her position, not like a sex object, by her Muslim (and non-Muslim, where appropriate) coworkers. This dates back to ancient times, and the punishment for illicit sex is very severe and studiously observed - no such person gets pregnant.

    My thoughts on how medieval jurists' rulings break down when you leave their coddled little mental world.
    Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    Is your religion real when it costs you nothing and carries no risk? Is your religion real when you fatten upon it? Is your religion real when you commit atrocities in its name? Whence comes your downward degeneration from the original revelation?

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    Re: Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    format_quote Originally Posted by NahidSarvy View Post
    I disagree with the qiyâs because it is flawed. The arguments are flawed because the theory is unsound.

    First, the Qur'ân says that we are not to make harâm that which is not harâm, yet what is being said?

    Second, why are there ahadith saying a woman should not flaunt herself in public if she isn't allowed around men? There's a flaw in thinking there, I think.

    Third, a large percentage of human beings are not of one sex or another - one in 1000 is visibly intersexed at birth, and even more are intersexed without immediate visible sign. How can we separate the sexes when they are not even clearly demarkated in real life (i.e. outside of a Jurist's head)? Do we just ignore all those people who are born differently?

    And what about people whose gender does not match their bodies? Muslim societies have accepted, for example, women working and living as men because of circumstance in the Balkans. Is a woman flaunting herself if she has to go to work with an entire crowd of men without a mahram - there being no mahram for her? The answer has been no, because a working woman is treated like any other person in her position, not like a sex object, by her Muslim (and non-Muslim, where appropriate) coworkers. This dates back to ancient times, and the punishment for illicit sex is very severe and studiously observed - no such person gets pregnant.

    My thoughts on how medieval jurists' rulings break down when you leave their coddled little mental world.
    The thread is about Mingling and Mixing of sexes which is forbidden in Islam!!! What are you going on about subhnallah!!!! Take about talking out of your own desires and opinions!!! Bring on your evidenceffended:

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    Re: Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    format_quote Originally Posted by NahidSarvy View Post
    I disagree with the qiyâs because it is flawed. The arguments are flawed because the theory is unsound.

    First, the Qur'ân says that we are not to make harâm that which is not harâm, yet what is being said?

    Second, why are there ahadith saying a woman should not flaunt herself in public if she isn't allowed around men? There's a flaw in thinking there, I think.

    Third, a large percentage of human beings are not of one sex or another - one in 1000 is visibly intersexed at birth, and even more are intersexed without immediate visible sign. How can we separate the sexes when they are not even clearly demarkated in real life (i.e. outside of a Jurist's head)? Do we just ignore all those people who are born differently?

    And what about people whose gender does not match their bodies? Muslim societies have accepted, for example, women working and living as men because of circumstance in the Balkans. Is a woman flaunting herself if she has to go to work with an entire crowd of men without a mahram - there being no mahram for her? The answer has been no, because a working woman is treated like any other person in her position, not like a sex object, by her Muslim (and non-Muslim, where appropriate) coworkers. This dates back to ancient times, and the punishment for illicit sex is very severe and studiously observed - no such person gets pregnant.

    My thoughts on how medieval jurists' rulings break down when you leave their coddled little mental world.
    Don't change Islamic rules to suit your own desires and whims :rant: :rant:

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    Re: Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    Ukht nahid do not deprive us of your salaam firstly

    I disagree with the qiyâs because it is flawed. The arguments are flawed because the theory is unsound.
    You can not come out with a statement like that without evidence. So next time i'll be expecting sound prove evidence. After all, you seem to consider the theory unsound i can only presume and conclude that you have something better to offer.


    First, the Qur'ân says that we are not to make harâm that which is not harâm, yet what is being said?
    It is ironic that people will use the Qur'an to misinterpret and use certain verses to aid their view point. Isn't the world becoming so sad....


    Second, why are there ahadith saying a woman should not flaunt herself in public if she isn't allowed around men? There's a flaw in thinking there, I think.
    The important factor in your statement is the part i highlighted. I think that brussel sprouts should be demolished from the face of this earth. That is my opinion, it has no basis apart from the fact that i do not like that vegetable. Allah (subhana wa ta'ala) is not going to deprive all human kind from eating sprouts just because i have distaste for it. It is merely my opinion, baseless just like what you have stated.



    Third, a large percentage of human beings are not of one sex or another - one in 1000 is visibly intersexed at birth, and even more are intersexed without immediate visible sign. How can we separate the sexes when they are not even clearly demarkated in real life (i.e. outside of a Jurist's head)? Do we just ignore all those people who are born differently?
    Hermaphodites, klinfelter's syndrome etc Although people like these exist they choose one sex over the other. I’m not going to dish out the A-Z on the subject but we are not talking about the case of people who suffer from such diseases. That is another issue which is of little relevance to the main topic.





    And what about people whose gender does not match their bodies?

    See above comment

    Muslim societies have accepted, for example, women working and living as men because of circumstance in the Balkans.
    And point being? Just because society excepts it does not make it right, i'm sure even you can see the flaws in your own conclusion.


    Is a woman flaunting herself if she has to go to work with an entire crowd of men without a mahram - there being no mahram for her? The answer has been no, because a working woman is treated like any other person in her position, not like a sex object, by her Muslim (and non-Muslim, where appropriate) coworkers. This dates back to ancient times, and the punishment for illicit sex is very severe and studiously observed - no such person gets pregnant.
    You seem to juxtapose two extremes of female characteristics by the terminologies you use. If one flaunts it implies to beautify and to show off. However, there are women who dress modestly and work. Perhaps you have missed the point or perhaps you have no desire to see what is being discussed here but to go into a rant about what you perceive to be a mistreatment on behalf of women. Eventhough i understand what you may be trying to get across i think you have missed the message the article was supposed to give.

    Intermingling between sexes is not allowed without a purpose. It is not saying that for a male and female who are non-mahram to speak to one another is forbidden. All that is being said is that one should not engage in idle chit chat with the opposite sex.

    Let us not argue with the creator here, the fact of the matter still is that our lord knows what is best for us. No time nor circumstances is going to change these laws.

    It is not for you or anyone here including myself to come to any conclusion without ilm (knowledge).




    My thoughts on how medieval jurists' rulings break down when you leave their coddled little mental world.
    Right....

    Please stay on topic in future references.
    Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    وَاصْبِرْ وَمَا صَبْرُكَ إِلاَّ بِاللّهِ


    ما بعرف انا شو حسيت

  16. #13
    NahidSarvy's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    format_quote Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~ View Post
    The terms “mixing” and “mingling” are used frequently in discussions on the subject of male-female relations in Islam, but these terms were not used at the time the Qur’ân was revealed. For this reason, we cannot find direct references in the Qur’ân and Sunnah that say “free mixing between men and women is unlawful”. However, this does not mean that such conduct is permissible or that Islam has failed to address the matter. Islam has detailed the relationship between men and women in the most precise and exacting terms. It has set down clear guidelines to show men and women how they must conduct themselves with one another. From all of this, there can be no question that Islam prohibits the free mixing of the sexes.
    Ah, herein lies the rub. It is not prohibited in the Qur'ân, yet it is prohibited by interpretation? That is opinion too, you know. Just because I'm not ibn Hanbal doesn't mean I can't reason with my mind.

    The conclusions raised about the separation of the sexes are misguided. And, unlike the authors who write otherwise, I make no statement that this is not an issue of opinion. In fact, so much of Islam is opinion. It's reasoning - on an individual basis by people, by "schools" (madhâhab), by cultural tradition.

    I gave my reasons why they are misguided. The issue is modesty, not of creating an artificial set of mutually inseparable categories and ensuring they are walled apart as a total solution.
    Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    Is your religion real when it costs you nothing and carries no risk? Is your religion real when you fatten upon it? Is your religion real when you commit atrocities in its name? Whence comes your downward degeneration from the original revelation?

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    Re: Mingling and Mixing of sexes



    Long but beneficial sharing, jazaak ALLAH khair.:rose:

    Mingling and Mixing of sexes


    Even a Smile is charity!


    Indiana20singingJPG 1 - Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    khayal 2 - Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    .



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    MinAhlilHadeeth's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    Wow, i thought no one would both to read it because of it's length.
    Jazak-Allah khayr for the feed back!
    And Navid... what exactly is your problem with the article? I think it sends out a great message!

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    NahidSarvy's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    format_quote Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~ View Post
    And Navid... what exactly is your problem with the article? I think it sends out a great message!
    Peace, ~Mu'MiNaH~.

    I don't agree that the message is the correct interpretation of God's wishes. God wishes us to be modest, not avoid all contact with half of the human race. Moreover, it is a justification used to keep women "in their place" by the ignorant. Moreover, it is ridiculously implausible to live that way.

    So that's my problem with the article.
    Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    Is your religion real when it costs you nothing and carries no risk? Is your religion real when you fatten upon it? Is your religion real when you commit atrocities in its name? Whence comes your downward degeneration from the original revelation?

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    Re: Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    No you are not. Far from it.

    But I would like to reign you down on the point you made about you not being ibn Hanbal. This gets to the crux of the matter - The common modern argument about us all being allowed to make ijtihad is a dodgy one - is that what you are referring to on these matters?
    Last edited by Silver Pearl; 05-06-2006 at 02:18 PM.

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    Re: Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    format_quote Originally Posted by dishdash View Post
    But I would like to reign you down on the point you made about you not being ibn Hanbal. This gets to the crux of the matter - The common modern argument about us all being allowed to make ijtihad is a dodgy one - is that what you are referring to on these matters?
    Peace, Dishdash.

    I don't claim to be ibn Hanbal, but I do think there is a degree of choice and exegesis expected of each Believer. I think that, however wondrous and scholarly, ancient experts of the Qur'ân are neither the end of the line nor are they perfect. I happen to see much misogyny coming from jurists, To be fair, some of them recognised and criticised, for example, certain hadîth authors for saying things about women that seem to contradict both the Prophet's life and the Qur'ân - the Father of the Kittens (Abû Hurayra), his sweet name notwithstading, is one of those authors whom classical jurists have chosen to politely note as having a bias against women.

    But nonetheless, there is a need for the doors of ijtihad to be reopened, yes, and they are just cracking open. There are not nearly enough trained scholars; god willing I will be able someday to write something of merit, but we need an entire generation with a new perspective.

    In the meantime, I read what limited scholarship there is available that seems to seek out the classical techniques - authors whose work is drowning in a tsunami of "instamullahs" who do not have the learning to make the endless fatawâ they do. I am inspired by scholars like Abou el Fadl, whose work on Beauty in Islam made me change my mind about many things about Islam. I also have read works by a variety of other authors, including Wadud and Barlas.

    This is not to say I limit myself, but there is such a dearth of modern scholars who are not drowning inside politics and the texts.

    I cannot render legal opinions, nor would I pretend to. But as Muslims, we should be open to variable interpretations - the idea of tolerance is important. (Yes, Abou el Fadl collected essays by many scholars under a title like this, but I haven't read it yet.) I am willing to listen and learn from a variety of sources, and this includes attending the local MSA Sisters' Group - where I am the only unveiled woman (though I wear a kufi or the like so as not to disrespect the community).

    Sorry if this seems like a rant. It's not. It's just an attempt to express that there are more opinions than those circulated over the internet. Sometimes, when I read a "new" post here, I search for some words and find the same post on some dozen or even hundred other places. These essays are so often uncredited. When we are deluged by a hundred of these copycat essays, it is very hard to swim towards the truth. I feel drowned in the pile of demands on my behaviour, unable to disagree.

    And at the bottom level, we all agree it is right to disagree in Islam. I mean, unless I claim to be the Prophet (or to be God - LOL), there is no compulsion. Sisters say it is wrong to wear the veil unless you want to - I have heard here stories of women who removed it when they realised they wore it out of family or cultural expectations, only to years later don it when they wanted to because of their love for God.

    I don't mean to offend people. Maybe I came off as brusque in this thread, or elsewhere, but I get frustrated when one particular notion of what it means to be Muslim is turned into a creed that everyone must obey.

    I should be free to express my dissention. We get people who aren't Muslim who say all sorts of terrible things. But sometimes I feel that a Muslim who disagrees with community opinion is unacceptable when an outsider is free to say all sorts of extremely critical things.

    I'm not here to create trouble, but to talk about Islam. And there are more that one understanding of the practices of Islam, and these should be respected.

    Anyway, that's all for now.
    Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    Is your religion real when it costs you nothing and carries no risk? Is your religion real when you fatten upon it? Is your religion real when you commit atrocities in its name? Whence comes your downward degeneration from the original revelation?

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    Re: Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Mu'minah View Post
    The thread is about Mingling and Mixing of sexes which is forbidden in Islam!!! What are you going on about subhnallah!!!! Take about talking out of your own desires and opinions!!! Bring on your evidenceffended:
    completely agree with you, some people just pick on the most minor details, shaytaan gives excuses for everything i gess
    Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    -
    My tears testify that i have a heart
    yet i feel me and shaytan never part
    -

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    Re: Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    I would like everyone to refrain from addressing others (whether they be Muslim or not) with insultive terminologies.


    Nahid


    It is quite ironical that you preferred to ignore my post which addressed all your previous comments but skimmed to the posts that have resulted in ad hominem argument.

    I don't claim to be ibn Hanbal,

    At least we have all acknowledged that you’re not trying to elevate your status to the likes of knowledgeable scholars.



    but I do think there is a degree of choice and exegesis expected of each Believer.
    Although your statement is correct you phrased it poorly, a flaw which could cause anyone to fall into the wrong pit really. Everyone of us as muslims should acquire knowledge. There is an element of choice in the matter, after all we are beings with free-will and thus everything we do has a degree of choice.

    I think that, however wondrous and scholarly, ancient experts of the Qur'ân are neither the end of the line nor are they perfect.
    I do not recall any scholar saying that they were perfect. Thus it would be idiotic (to phrase it clumsily) for us to even think that these scholars attributed themselves to being perfected. One should not pour words into others mouth.


    Ancient experts of the Quran are not the end of the line and no one has said that but rather we can not demolish their work simply because it does not quite fit in with our new 'modern' ways of life.



    I happen to see much misogyny coming from jurists, To be fair, some of them recognised and criticised, for example, certain hadîth authors for saying things about women that seem to contradict both the Prophet's life and the Qur'ân - the Father of the Kittens (Abû Hurayra), his sweet name notwithstading, is one of those authors whom classical jurists have chosen to politely note as having a bias against women.

    You baffle me with some of the commnets you make, it seems clear that you have a sweet tooth for ripping apart the likes of respected scholars and you have gone to the extent of naming Abu Hurayra (rahimullah) as being baised towards women. the implication. Ah, my only advice would be that it is best and wise for you to study Islam without holding ideologies based on what you believe should be Islam.

    Opinions are of little weight, actually opinions are insignificant and as you continue to hurl your thoughts it will be viewed lightly as you have no prove. As i stated before bring forth evidence for your spouting and all shall be fine. If you can not then say nothing.

    But nonetheless, there is a need for the doors of ijtihad to be reopened, yes, and they are just cracking open. There are not nearly enough trained scholars; god willing I will be able someday to write something of merit, but we need an entire generation with a new perspective.
    The doors of ijtihad are always open....open to those who have ilm (knowledge) not the next random person who has read few books here and there and is unwary of much of its interpretation.




    In the meantime, I read what limited scholarship there is available that seems to seek out the classical techniques - authors whose work is drowning in a tsunami of "instamullahs" who do not have the learning to make the endless fatawâ they do. I am inspired by scholars like Abou el Fadl, whose work on Beauty in Islam made me change my mind about many things about Islam. I also have read works by a variety of other authors, including Wadud and Barlas.

    This is not to say I limit myself, but there is such a dearth of modern scholars who are not drowning inside politics and the texts.

    there aren't limited scholars, rather the contrary but because your views are shared by such small percentage that are refuted by most scholars it is dismissed. It is evident that you do limit yourself, after all, you consider the number of scholars to be limited and that does give the impression that you only seem to have eyes for small portion of scholars. As for the rest you have a yearn to dismiss them because you do not approve.


    I cannot render legal opinions, nor would I pretend to. But as Muslims, we should be open to variable interpretations - the idea of tolerance is important. (Yes, Abou el Fadl collected essays by many scholars under a title like this, but I haven't read it yet.) I am willing to listen and learn from a variety of sources, and this includes attending the local MSA Sisters' Group - where I am the only unveiled woman (though I wear a kufi or the like so as not to disrespect the community).
    You contradict yourself, you have done the opposite of what you have said. As for you being the only unveiled sister in the MSA sister's group then that is your choice. Don't turn up with a kufi for firstly it is designed for men and secondly you should not care about people's opinion about you. If you're not going to veil yourself for God then don't do it for humans.




    Sorry if this seems like a rant. It's not.
    It is a rant but that does not matter....


    It's just an attempt to express that there are more opinions than those circulated over the internet. Sometimes, when I read a "new" post here, I search for some words and find the same post on some dozen or even hundred other places. These essays are so often uncredited. When we are deluged by a hundred of these copycat essays, it is very hard to swim towards the truth. I feel drowned in the pile of demands on my behaviour, unable to disagree.

    It is quite ironical that you preferred to ignore my post which addressed all your previous comments but skimmed to the posts that have resulted in ad hominem argument. (quoted from what i said at the beginning)



    And at the bottom level, we all agree it is right to disagree in Islam. I mean, unless I claim to be the Prophet (or to be God - LOL), there is no compulsion.
    Disagree is a word used too lightly which really means nothing in this context, be specific. I think what you meant to say is La ikraha fee deen (there is no complusion in deen). Don't be selective....that ayah which follows ayah al-kursi is alot longer. With a lot of meaning.....


    Sisters say it is wrong to wear the veil unless you want to - I have heard here stories of women who removed it when they realised they wore it out of family or cultural expectations, only to years later don it when they wanted to because of their love for God.
    And that is how it is....don't do something for others but for the creator.


    I don't mean to offend people. Maybe I came off as brusque in this thread, or elsewhere, but I get frustrated when one particular notion of what it means to be Muslim is turned into a creed that everyone must obey.
    Sabrun jameel

    Those who are well versed than you have more authority than you, unless you can measure up to their level of knowledge it is wise we refrain from speaking.

    I should be free to express my dissention. We get people who aren't Muslim who say all sorts of terrible things. But sometimes I feel that a Muslim who disagrees with community opinion is unacceptable when an outsider is free to say all sorts of extremely critical things.
    You know the answer to it but you are reluctant to face up to it.


    I'm not here to create trouble, but to talk about Islam. And there are more that one understanding of the practices of Islam, and these should be respected.
    Respect works both ways.....you can't expect to get respect if you do not show respect in the first place. Nonetheless it is your call.



    Anyway, that's all for now.
    I think that is enough talk together unless you will surprise me with evidence to support your claims.

    I would say but you have a tendescy of not returning them.
    Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    وَاصْبِرْ وَمَا صَبْرُكَ إِلاَّ بِاللّهِ


    ما بعرف انا شو حسيت


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