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The Position of Hands in Qiyaam - Detailed discussion

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    The Position of Hands in Qiyaam - Detailed discussion

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    Detailed discussion about placing the hands beneath the Navel during Salaah being Sunnah

    By Maulana Abdur-Rahman Ibn Yusuf

    The Position of Hands in Qiyaam

    Upon entering a Masjid, a person sees a multitude of different people. Some of them he sees standing in prayer with their hands clasped together on the chest. Others he sees with their hands beneath the navel. Then as he proceeds further he observes one with his hands held together just beneath the chest. Following that he catches sight of a person who seems to be merely standing there. However, when he takes a closer look, he finds that this person too is engrossed in prayer, but he has not brought his hands together. instead he has left them at his sides.

    It is from situations such as these, where the questions arise, ‘Where exactly did Rasoolullah (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) place his hands whilst standing in prayer?’ The following discussion will seek to determine the exact Sunnah method of keeping the hands whilst in Qiyaam. However, before all else it should be borne in mind that the debate is not regarding one method being prohibited and another permissible or Fardh but, similarly to the issue of Aameen, this one is also only concerning which is the more preferable method of holding the hands together whilst in Salaah.

    Now moving on to the difference of opinions, it is worth knowing that there are really two different disputes here. Firstly. lmaam Malik’s (RA) opinion that one should leave his hands hanging at the sides of his body whilst in Qiyaam and he should not hold the hands together. As opposed to this other scholars have reached a total agreement that the hands must be held together and they should not be left loose on the sides.

    Stemming from this, the second group then have a conflict of views between them as to where exactly is the most preferable place for one to grasp his hands. Should they be held below the navel, beneath the chest or directly upon the chest? The problem is however, that there are very few sahih ahadith concerning this issue and most of the reports which express the different ways of keeping the hands have all been classified as being either totally weak or with some degree of defect in their authenticity. Due to the lack of authentic narration on this subject, it makes the issue slightly more difficult than the other issues of Salaah. Nonetheless, by the end of the chapter after sound analysis and reasoning the most preferable method which could also be designated as the sunnah one, will become evident.

    Opinions of the Ulama in Detail

    The first difference of opinion:


    lmaam Malik’s (RA) more popular opinion which is related by lbnul Qasim (RA) is that the hands should be left hanging at the sides. A secondary view of his, this time via lbnul Munzir (RA) is that the hands will be joined together and placed on the body instead. lmaam Abu Hanifah (RA), Shafi’ee (RA), Ahmad (RA) and the majority of Ulama are of the opinion that the hands should be held together and not left to hang. lbn Abdil Barr (RA) states. "There is nothing reported from Rasoolullah (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) which is on the contrary to this (opinion). and this view is a/so the unanimous one of all the Companions and Tabi’een."

    The second difference of opinion:


    Following this dispute number two is regarding the exact portion of the body upon which the hands should be positioned after locking them together. lmaam Abu Hanifah (RA) and Abu lshaaq Al Marwazi (RA) from the Shafi’ees assert that to tie the hands together below the navel is Sunnah. lrnaam Shafi’ee’s (RA) view is to lock the hands together and hold them beneath the chest according to the books, Waseet and Kitabul-Umm (books on Shafi’ee fiqh). This is also Imaam Shafi’ee’s (RA) most popular opinion and the one followed by his school of thought. A second and more unusual view of his is that the hands should be situated directly on the chest. This is mentioned in the book Haawi. As for Imaam Ahmad, he holds three different opinions: One is similar to that of lmaam Abu Hanifah (RA) – lbn Habeerah has said this to be his more popular opinion. The second opinion is the same as lmaam Shafi’ee’s (RA) view and the third is, the Musalli has a choice between placing them beneath the navel or on the chest because both of these methods are derived from ahadith.

    The Differences to be found in the Narrations and their reasons:

    Ulama state that there are no sahih ahadith which could substantiate lmaam Malik’s opinion of leaving the hands to remain at the sides. Some have stated the reason for him holding that opinion, to be absolute fear, awe and reverence of Almighty Allah; that once a person is stood before Him, he forgets to bring his hands together and they are left to hang at the sides. Whatever the case maybe, they do have a few reports which outline some Sahaahah leaving their hands hanging loose whilst in the standing posture of Salaah. Although these reports are not mentioned here, they can be found in the book Musannaf-Ibn-Abi-Shavbah.

    As opposed to this, there are a number of narrations which establish Rasoolullah (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) joining the hands together, although they then vary as regards to where the hands were exactly placed. One very confused narration is that of Wa’il Ibn Hujr (RA) which is found in a number of books. He reports,

    “I performed Salaah with Rasoolullah (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam), (in which) he placed his right hand on the left one. upon his chest.”

    This particular report is from S’ahih-Ibn-Khuzamah. The version mentioned in Musnad-ul-Bazzar instead of the term. ‘upon his chest’ has the words. ‘near his chest’ and the one found in Musannaf-Ibn-Abi-Shavbah contains the statement. ‘beneath the navel’. The first two reports, apparently establish the Shafi’ee’s point of view and the third one is in favour of the Hanafi’s opinion. It should be remembered, however, that all three reports do contain some type of a weakness or another, therefore, they will all have to individually undergo an analysis in order to deduce the reasons for the weaknesses and their levels. Furthermore, can any of the three stand as evidence or not, will also be determined.

    Analysis of the First Contradictory Version:

    The report of Wa’il Ibn Hujr (RA) to be found in S’ahih-Ibn-Khuzamah which has these extra words. ‘on his chest’ is probably the weakest of them all. This is stated due to a number of reasons:

    1. Muaminil lbn Ismail reports the extra statement and he is known to be a weak narrator. He is said to have made a great deal of mistakes in the later part of his life when he was forced to resort to narrating from his memory due to his books becoming buried. lmaam Bukhari (RA) states in Al-Mizan. “His hadith are disowned.” Abu Hatim (RA) informs, ‘He made a great deal of mistakes.” Abu Zur’ah (RA) states. “His narrations contain a lot of mistakes.”

    (ii) This same hadiih. although mentioned in many other books of ahadith, through various chains of narrations does not contain these extra words (on the chest) in any other one of the transmissions. This indicates that the narrations which contain that statement are only narrated through Muammil Ibn Ismail, who has been proven to be dha ‘eef.

    Adding to this. Allamah Nimwi presents the same narration in his book through Abu Daud. Nasai and lbn Majah. It is also found in the Musnad of Abu Daud At Tayalisi. but none of them have any transmission which contains these extra words. ‘On the chest’.

    (iii) Hafiz Ibn Hajar has confirmed in Fathul-Baari that the link of Muammil Ibn Ismail from Sufvan Thawri is weak. (1)

    (iv) Sufyan Thawri (who is mentioned in the chain of transmission) held the opinion of placing the hands beneath the navel thus, when his narration is found to be on the contrary, it will not be accepted. according to the rules of jurisprudence.

    (v) All the ahadith of S’ahih-Ibn-Khuzamah are asserted by some to be sahih. but this claim is not entirely true. Allamah Suyuti (RA) has stated in his book, Tadreebur-Rawi, that S’ahih-Ibn-Khuzamah also contains weak and munkar (disowned) reports. Furthermore, lbn Khuzaymah similar to Imaam Tirmizi routine comments on every hadih, designating their level of authenticity but, following this hadith, he does not make any statement whatsoever. Therefore, because lbn Khuzaymah has remained silent regarding this hadith, it will not be classified as sahih due to it merely being part of his book. It is also evident that if it has been sahih it would surely have been designated as such.

    (vi) Even if this hadith be accepted for a moment then we could say, the reason for Rasoolullah (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) placing his hands on his chest was merely to inform the Companions that this method is also permissible (Bavaanan-lil-Jawaaz). In no way can one prove from this hadith that this was also done by Rasoolullah (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) on a permanent basis.

    Analysis of the Second Contradictory Version:

    2. The second narration which is found in Musnad-ul-Bazzar containing the words. ‘near the chest’ is also weak. This is because it has Muhammad lbn Hajar (2) in its chain of transmission regarding who lmaam Bukhari (RA) says. ‘His matter is unsettled'. lmaam Zahabi (RA) states, 'He has some disowned narrations'. Thus, this version will also be rejected due to being da’eef.

    Along with the above hadith. lmaam Shafi’ee’s opinion is sometimes strengthened by the narration of Halab which is found in Musnad-ul-Ahmad,

    "Rasoolullah (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) would turn towards his right and left side and would place this hand upon his chest." (3)

    Allamah Nimwi (RA) has proven with strong evidence that this hadith contains a written error. In place of the words ‘on the other hand’, somebody by mistake inserted the statement. ‘on his chest. Thus, this hadith will also cease to stand as evidence for them.

    Another weak attempt is made to strengthen the Shafi’ee’s point of view, by a hadith mentioned in Bayhaqi. It states that Hadhrat Ali (RA) explaining the meaning of the following verse of the Holy Qur ‘an, “Therefore turn in prayer to your Lord and Sacrifice (to Him only) (4), placed his right hand on the middle of his left one then placed them on his chest, as though indicating that the tafseer of the verse was to locate the hands in this manner. (5)“

    However. Allamah Maardini (RA) in his book Al-.Jawharun-Naqi, establishes that the transmission and of the narration text are inconsistent. Imaam Bayhaqi (RA) narrates the same hadith from lbn Abbas (RA) as well and in that chain there is Rawh lbnul Musayyib regarding who lbn Hibban (RA) says, “He narrates fabrications, it is not permissible to narrate from him“. Allamah Sa’aati (RA) writes. “It is not correct to link this tafseer to Ali (RA) or lbn Abbas (RA) but as Ibn Kathir has stated, ‘The correct tafseer of the verse is that it is regarding the Sacrifice (Ourhani).“ (6)

    Up until now two narrations have been analyzed and they have both been found to be defective. Besides these, there are also others which contradict the Hanafi ‘s point of view. Thus, a general answer and reason for any apparently contradicting ahadith is that it is acceptable that Rasoolullah (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) did one at time or another place his hands on his chest or below it. However, the Hanafis assert that the hands were only placed in that manner to announce that methods permissibility (Bavaanan-lil-Jawaaz). The normal and routine method of Rasoolullah (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) however, was to place them below the navel (as will be understood in due course).

    Evidence from Ahadith:

    After analyzing and thoroughly answering the contradictory ahadith, those narrations are reviewed which are in harmony to the view of the Hanafis

    1. Wa’il Ibn Hujr (RA) narrates. “I saw Rasoolullah (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) placing his right hand in the left one below the navel, in prayer” (7)

    This is a variant version of the two ahadith mentioned above which contain the extra words. ‘below the navel’. Regarding this hadith some Hanafi scholars with all fairness confess that it cannot be used as strong evidence to reinforce their view, because the extra statement (below the navel) is only to be found in some editions of Musannaf-Ibn-Abi-Shavbah and not in all of them. Also this hadith has an inconsistent text, because it also has the words. ‘upon the chest and ‘beneath the chest’ in place of ‘below the navel’ in some variant narrations which have been mentioned earlier.

    However. it is stated in Fathul-Mulhim which quotes from Aatharus-Sunan that Allamah Qasirn lbn Qutlubgah (RA) has established that this particular version has a good transmission. Allamah Muhammad Abut Tayvib Al-Madani (RA) writes in his commentary of Tirmizi, that this hadith is strong as regards to its transmission and Sheikh Abid Sindhi (RA) confirms. ”Its narrators are trustworthy”. Whatever the case may be the weaknesses of the hadith will not render it totally unacceptable because there are many other reports which supplement and strengthen it as will follow.

    2. Hadhrat Ali (RA) states, ”To place one palm over the other beneath the navel is from the sunnah of salaah.“8

    It is a known fact that whenever a Sahaahi utters the words. ‘It is from the sunnah.’ They mean it is being directly reported from Rasoolullah (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) himself. However, the hadith does contain Abdur Rahman lbn Ishaaq in its chain of transmission who is classified as weak but the narration will be still accepted as supplementary evidence, because there are also other reports which reinforce it.

    3. Hajjaj lbn Hassan informs, “Either I heard Abu Mijlaz saying or 1 asked him, ‘How should one place his hands (‘during salaah)?’ He replied, ‘He should place the inner portion of his right palm on the back of’ the left hand beneath the navel. (9)

    The transmission of the hadith is hasan as Allamah Al Maardini (RA) states in his book Al-.Jawharun-Naqi.

    4. Ibraheem Nakh’ay (RA) informs, “One will place his right hand on the left beneath the navel, whilst in salaah. (10)

    The transmission of this hadith is also hasan.

    5. Abu Hurayrah (RA) narrates, “The placing of one hand over the other in salaah is beneath the navel“ (11)

    6. Anas (RA) reports that there are three actions from the good qualities of Nubuwwah: to open fast early, to delay the Sahri and to place the right hand over the left beneath the navel whilst in salaah.(12)

    The Concept Explained Through Other Reasons:

    Ulama have given various reasons as to why the hands are best placed beneath the navel and why this method is classified as sunnah and the most preferable. They are as follows:

    1. Although the ahadith of all parties involved in the dispute detailed above, have some amount of weakness. the narrations used by the Hanafis have relatively received a lesser amount of criticism from the rest due to this reason, they will acquire greater approval.

    2. lbn Humaam states in his book Futhul-Qadeer. “Due to the inconsistency and contradictions found between the various narrations, It is best to resort to analogy and reasoning. Standing before the Lord demands a pose which is filled with respect and reverence. To locate the hands beneath the navel is probably the most respectful form of standing, hence the placing of the hands beneath the navel will be deemed superior. On the other hand, the reason for women being advised to place their hands on their chest, is due to the greater adherence of purdah achieved by it."

    3. It states in the book Avni. ‘‘To join the hands’ beneath the navel has great benefits: it is a posture which signifies a greater amount of respect, it holds a greater contrast to the postures of the disbelievers. He also says, “This is the exact posture in which one stands before the rulers (‘of this world). “He then further states, By placing the hands on the chest, it creates a similarity with women, thus, that cannot be classified as being the sunnah for men.’ (13)

    Conclusion:

    To conclude the whole discussion, it could be said that although, all the ahadith which are presented as evidence by each school of thought, contain some sort of weakness or defect, the ahadith of the Hanafis have a relatively less amount of criticism directed at them and they also have other reports which are quite strong to supplement those weak ones. The ahadith of the opposition (as detailed above) have been concluded to be unacceptable in backing their opinions concerning this issue, and the reason for their non- acceptance has also been detailed.


    To place the hands beneath the navel as it has been mentioned. engenders a greater amount of respect and humility. Also just as the sitting posture of salaah which is enacted by a male differs from the method of the female, the place where the hands should be rested by both the male and female, will also vary.


    This brings about the conclusion that judging from the ahadith and by supplementing them with sound reasoning, the Hanafis have a firmer stand than the rest and the sunnah pose will be to situate the hands beneath the navel.

    1. Fathul Baari 206 *

    2. Majma-uz-Zawaa’id 135:2

    3. Aathaar-us-Sunan 87

    4. Al-Qaur’aan 2:108

    5. Bayhaqi 30:2

    6. Al Fathur Rabbani 174:3

    7. Aathaar-us-Sunan 90

    8. Bayhaqi 312 Ibn Abi Shayhbah 391:1

    9. Al Jawahurun Naqi 31:2

    10. Ibn Abi Shayhbah 390:1

    11. Al Jawaharun Naqi 31:2

    12. Al Jawaharun Naqi 31:2

    13. Ayni 16:3

    [LINK REMOVED]
    Last edited by Umm Yoosuf; 05-03-2007 at 10:05 AM. Reason: Links to articles by Nuh Ha Mim Keller
    The Position of Hands in Qiyaam - Detailed discussion

    Hadith: "The best of my community are my generation, and then those who follow them, and then those who follow them" [related by Imran ibn al-Husayn in Bukhari].


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    Re: The Position of Hands in Qiyaam - Detailed discussion



    subhanAllah, i have just read the conclusion but subhanAllah, who can derive an understanding from all this easily?

    its easy if we have a few hadith and quranic ayyat but all this sourcing and interpretation etc, most of the sourcing given i dont even know of.

    wallahi its issues like this which should make it as clear as broad day light the requirement of going to the learned men and accepting differences of opinion.


    by the way bro did you get this from the book - "kep proofs of hanafi fiqh"?
    The Position of Hands in Qiyaam - Detailed discussion

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    My tears testify that i have a heart
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    Re: The Position of Hands in Qiyaam - Detailed discussion



    yeah its extracted from that book, i happen to read that book in my cousins home and i found it really good book for present era, when there is much propaganda going against the madhab adherents, it become nescessary for some to know the proofs if any confusion might have come into their heads by the fitnah (which causes muslims vs muslims).



    The Position of Hands in Qiyaam - Detailed discussion

    Hadith: "The best of my community are my generation, and then those who follow them, and then those who follow them" [related by Imran ibn al-Husayn in Bukhari].


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    Re: The Position of Hands in Qiyaam - Detailed discussion

    asalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu

    agreed bro, its a very good book may Allah reward the bro. the proof is quite amazing aswell mashaAllah.

    although i've noticed theres much proof left out which i've found elsewhere but subhaNAllah still good.
    The Position of Hands in Qiyaam - Detailed discussion

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    Re: The Position of Hands in Qiyaam - Detailed discussion

    format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim View Post
    asalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu

    agreed bro, its a very good book may Allah reward the bro. the proof is quite amazing aswell mashaAllah.

    although i've noticed theres much proof left out which i've found elsewhere but subhaNAllah still good.


    yeah thats true, there is alot proof that is left out in each section otherwise it wld be more thicker than the "hidayaah" book of Fiqh.

    I think, hanafis ofcourse, but esp. salafis should have this book as well.


    here is the book cover:

    0646 1 - The Position of Hands in Qiyaam - Detailed discussion

    On Taqlid and the Hanafi interpretation of the Prophetic statement, "Pray as you have observed me pray" (Sahih al-Bukhari).

    From the back cover:

    In recent decades many attacks have been launched against the concept of taqlid [following a school of Islamic law]. Opposition has ranged from being mild with degrees of acceptance to malicious attacks. Certain extreme elements have gone so far as to brand those who follow a madhhab [school] as mushrik [polytheist]. Much of the opposition has been a result of misunderstanding the realities of this concept.

    This first part of this book seeks to clarify certain aspects of taqlid that have been misunderstood and gravely distorted. It sheds light on the necessity of taqlid, its history, and its role in today?s world. The second part includes several chapters devoted to issues regarding salat [ritual prayer] according to the Hanafi school of law. Through illustrative examples and detailed discussions, the chapters on prayer sufficiently demonstrate the sophisticated legal philosophy employed by the Hanafi school (indeed all the madhhabs) in their derivation of legal rulings from the source texts of Islam.

    All rulings have been supported with evidentiary proofs from the Qur?an and Hadith. The author delivers an even-handed presentation of arguments throughout the book. He intends neither to offend nor to perpetuate polemic disputes, but rather to state the facts in a lucid and rational style, with a view to appeal to the reader's sense of reason.

    The Position of Hands in Qiyaam - Detailed discussion

    Hadith: "The best of my community are my generation, and then those who follow them, and then those who follow them" [related by Imran ibn al-Husayn in Bukhari].


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    Re: The Position of Hands in Qiyaam - Detailed discussion



    love to share this video in this thread.

    Sheikh Ali Jaber -- Surah Al Naml
    1980s

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    The Position of Hands in Qiyaam - Detailed discussion

    Hadith: "The best of my community are my generation, and then those who follow them, and then those who follow them" [related by Imran ibn al-Husayn in Bukhari].


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    Re: The Position of Hands in Qiyaam - Detailed discussion



    Kool thread, Mashaa Allaah. Jazaak Allaah Khayr.

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    Re: The Position of Hands in Qiyaam - Detailed discussion

    Abit curious about some of the proofs given, like the statement of Abu Hurayra and Ali. Has the Sanad been given for each in the book?

    Specially since:

    the hadeeth of Ibn Jareer al-Dabbi `an his father, who said, "I saw `Ali (radi Allaahu `anhu) holding his left arm with his right on the wrist, above the navel" - this isnaad is a candidate for the rank of hasan; Baihaqi (1/301) firmly designated it to be hasan, and Bukhaari (1/301) designated it with certainty while giving it in an abridged, ta`leeq form.
    Last edited by Umar001; 05-03-2007 at 12:24 PM.
    The Position of Hands in Qiyaam - Detailed discussion

    The path is long but I hope we meet,
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    A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
    If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.

    Your Bro. Abu Hurayra, al-Habeshi

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    Re: The Position of Hands in Qiyaam - Detailed discussion

    format_quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi View Post
    Abit curious about some of the proofs given, like the statement of Abu Hurayra and Ali. Has the Sanad been given for each in the book?

    Specially since:

    the hadeeth of Ibn Jareer al-Dabbi `an his father, who said, "I saw `Ali (radi Allaahu `anhu) holding his left arm with his right on the wrist, above the navel" - this isnaad is a candidate for the rank of hasan; Baihaqi (1/301) firmly designated it to be hasan, and Bukhaari (1/301) designated it with certainty while giving it in an abridged, ta`leeq form.
    do you mean you want to see the whole chain of narrators akhee?

    because in the above hadith it seems that imam baihaqi rahmatullahi alayh declared it hasan.

    assalamu alaikum
    The Position of Hands in Qiyaam - Detailed discussion

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    Re: The Position of Hands in Qiyaam - Detailed discussion

    format_quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi View Post
    Abit curious about some of the proofs given, like the statement of Abu Hurayra and Ali. Has the Sanad been given for each in the book?

    Specially since:

    the hadeeth of Ibn Jareer al-Dabbi `an his father, who said, "I saw `Ali (radi Allaahu `anhu) holding his left arm with his right on the wrist, above the navel" - this isnaad is a candidate for the rank of hasan; Baihaqi (1/301) firmly designated it to be hasan, and Bukhaari (1/301) designated it with certainty while giving it in an abridged, ta`leeq form.



    I think the following article will help you, insha'Allah.



    Placing hands beneath the navel and Shaikh Albanis objections

    The Hanafis state that one should place his hands beneath his Navel, since this is the Sunna, as do the Hanbalis as stated in Kashaf Al Qina by Al Buhuti. There are also many Hadith that support this:

    حدثنا أبو معاوية عن عبد الرحمن بن إسحاق عن زياد بن زيد السوائي عن أبي جحيفة عن علي قال : من سنة الصلاة وضع الايدي على الايدي تحت السرر

    Sayyidina Ali states:

    - To place one palm over the other beneath the navel, is from the sunna of prayer (Bayhaqi, Musannaf Ibn Abi Shayba 1:391).

    حدثنا يزيد بن هارون قال : أخبرنا حجاج بن حسان قال : سمعت أبا مجلز أو سألته قال : قلت كيف يصنع قال : يضع باطن كف يمينه على ظاهر كف شماله ويجعلها أسفل من السرة

    Hajjaj ibn Hassan relates:

    - Either I heard Abu Mijlaz saying or I inquired from him, ‘How should one position his hands [during prayer]?’ He replied, ‘He should place the inner portion of his right hand upon the back of the left one beneath the navel.” (Musannaf Ibn Abi Shayba 1:390)

    The transmission of this hadith is Hasan.

    حدثنا جرير عن مغيرة عن أبي معشر إبراهيم قال : لا بأس بأن يضع اليمنى على اليسرى في الصلاة

    Ibrahim Nikhai states:

    - One should place his right hand upon the left one beneath the navel whilst in salat. (Musannaf Ibn Abi Shayba 1:390)


    Shaikh Albani said:
    Close to this is what 'Abdullaah ibn Ahmad ibn Hanbal related in his Masaa'il (p. 62): "I saw that when praying, my father placed his hands, one on the other, above the navel." See Appendix 4
    This is incorrect, since the position of the Hanbali Madhab is that both ways are allowed, although the placing of the hands below the navel is a more sound position according to the Hanbalis. This can easily be seen by looking at the major Hanbali works such as Al Mughni by Ibn Qudamah and others.

    قال‏:‏ ‏[‏ويجعلهما تحت سرته‏]‏ اختلفت الرواية في موضع وضعهما‏,‏ فروى عن أحمد أنه يضعهما تحت سرته روى ذلك عن على وأبي هريرة وأبي مجلز‏,‏ والنخعي والثوري وإسحاق لما روي عن على رضي الله عنه قال‏:‏ من السنة وضع اليمين على الشمال تحت السرة رواه الإمام أحمد‏,‏ وأبو داود وهذا ينصرف إلى سنة النبي - صلى الله عليه وسلم- ولأنه قول من ذكرنا من الصحابة وعن أحمد أنه يضعهما فوق السرة وهو قول سعيد بن جبير والشافعي لما روى وائل بن حجر قال‏:‏ ‏(‏رأيت النبي - صلى الله عليه وسلم- يصلي فوضع يديه على صدره إحداهما على الأخرى ‏وعنه أنه مخير في ذلك لأن الجميع مروي‏,‏ والأمر في ذلك واسع


    Shaikh Albani said:
    The raising of the hands here is narrated in a mutawaatir way from the Messenger (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam), and the majority of scholars have supported it, including some Hanafis. See the previous footnote under Rukoo'.
    This is incorrect again. Although it may be Mutawatir, the Hanafi Madhab basis its opinion on various hadith to support their view.

    حدثنا هناد حدثنا وكيع عن سفيان عن عاصم بن كليب عن عبد الرحمن بن الأسود عن علقمة قال قال عبد الله بن مسعود ألا أصلي بكم صلاة رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فصلى فلم يرفع يديه إلا في أول مرة قال وفي الباب عن البراء بن عازب قال أبو عيسى حديث بن مسعود حديث حسن وبه يقول غير واحد من أهل العلم من أصحاب النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم والتابعين وهو قول سفيان الثوري وأهل الكوفة

    Hannaad - Waki - Sufyan - Asim bin Kulaib - Abdur Rahman bin Al Aswad Alqamah who said: Ibn Masud said:
    -- Should I not perform with you the Salaat of Rasulullah ?
    He (Ibn Masud) then performed Salaat and he did not raise his hands except in the beginning once.’

    Tirmidhi added also that in this regard there is also the narration of Bara Bin Azib. Tirmidhi said: The Hadith of Ibn Masud is Hasan.


    أخبرنا محمود بن غيلان المروزي قال أنبأ وكيع قال حدثنا سفيان عن عاصم بن كليب عن عبد الرحمن بن الأسود عن علقمة عن عبد الله أنه قال ألا أصلي بكم صلاة النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فصلى فلم يرفع يديه إلا مرة واحدة

    Mahmud - Waki - Sufyan - Asim Bin Kulaib - Abdur Rahmaan Bin al Aswad - Alqamah – Abdullah (bin Masud): Verily he said:

    Should I not perform with you the Salaat of Rasulullah ?

    He then performed Salaat and he did not raise his hands except once.

    (Sunan Nasai)


    and Allah Ta'ala knows the best.


    The Position of Hands in Qiyaam - Detailed discussion

    Hadith: "The best of my community are my generation, and then those who follow them, and then those who follow them" [related by Imran ibn al-Husayn in Bukhari].


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    Re: The Position of Hands in Qiyaam - Detailed discussion

    Jazak Allah khair for the very informative answer to this question. Because I am from a Pakistani and Hanafi background, I would place my arms below the navel. Then I read somewhere that these ahadeeth which support this position is weak, and so for a while I placed my hands on my chest when offering salaat. Now insha Allah that this confusion has been cleared up, I will have to return to my old ways.

    I was also wandering if an explanation can be provided of how to hold the hands during du'a, as there is also a variation among different Muslims in this matter as well.

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    Re: The Position of Hands in Qiyaam - Detailed discussion

    format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777 View Post

    I was also wandering if an explanation can be provided of how to hold the hands during du'a, as there is also a variation among different Muslims in this matter as well.
    Akhee ! take from your teacher, or find a mufti of your madhab.

    i wish you success

    assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu
    The Position of Hands in Qiyaam - Detailed discussion

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    Re: The Position of Hands in Qiyaam - Detailed discussion

    Again I have asked for the chain of narrations for the points being made under the title; Evidence from Ahadith:

    Where Ali and Abu Hurayra's statements are given is that chain available?

    With regards tot he other points being asnwered to then that is a different matter.
    The Position of Hands in Qiyaam - Detailed discussion

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    After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.

    A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
    If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.

    Your Bro. Abu Hurayra, al-Habeshi

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    Re: The Position of Hands in Qiyaam - Detailed discussion

    format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim View Post
    do you mean you want to see the whole chain of narrators akhee?

    because in the above hadith it seems that imam baihaqi rahmatullahi alayh declared it hasan.

    assalamu alaikum
    Wa Aleykum Salam Wa Rhametullah,

    The hadith;

    2. Hadhrat Ali (RA) states, ”To place one palm over the other beneath the navel is from the sunnah of salaah.“8

    It is a known fact that whenever a Sahaahi utters the words. ‘It is from the sunnah.’ They mean it is being directly reported from Rasoolullah (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) himself. However, the hadith does contain Abdur Rahman lbn Ishaaq in its chain of transmission who is classified as weak but the narration will be still accepted as supplementary evidence, because there are also other reports which reinforce it.

    Is admittedly weak and only accepted if supplementary evidence is found.

    5. Abu Hurayrah (RA) narrates, “The placing of one hand over the other in salaah is beneath the navel“ (11)

    I would have wanted to see the chain of this hadith too.

    Also brother, with regards to this:
    Shaikh Albani said:
    The raising of the hands here is narrated in a mutawaatir way from the Messenger (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam), and the majority of scholars have supported it, including some Hanafis. See the previous footnote under Rukoo'.
    it was replied,

    This is incorrect again. Although it may be Mutawatir, the Hanafi Madhab basis its opinion on various hadith to support their view.

    How is it incorrect, just curious. Furthermore a Mutawwatir hadith is the stronger out of all others, so that's done and dusted or am I wrong?

    Allah knowst best.

    Your brother Eesa.
    The Position of Hands in Qiyaam - Detailed discussion

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    After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.

    A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
    If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.

    Your Bro. Abu Hurayra, al-Habeshi

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    Re: The Position of Hands in Qiyaam - Detailed discussion

    Bissmillahirrahmaan arraheem

    format_quote Originally Posted by Musalmaan View Post


    On Taqlid and the Hanafi interpretation of the Prophetic statement, "Pray as you have observed me pray" (Sahih al-Bukhari).


    format_quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi View Post
    Abit curious about some of the proofs given, like the statement of Abu Hurayra and Ali. Has the Sanad been given for each in the book?

    Specially since:

    the hadeeth of Ibn Jareer al-Dabbi `an his father, who said, "I saw `Ali (radi Allaahu `anhu) holding his left arm with his right on the wrist, above the navel" - this isnaad is a candidate for the rank of hasan; Baihaqi (1/301) firmly designated it to be hasan, and Bukhaari (1/301) designated it with certainty while giving it in an abridged, ta`leeq form.
    i read a hadith like this in the Riyadh us Saliheen by imam Nawawi
    and like bro musalmaan posted 'pray as you have observed me pray'
    Rasullallahs message was to all of Mankind and women fit into that category too so we should all pray as he did Insha'Allah. And of course we are all human and humans are prone to making mistakes as the four imams repeatedly claimed 'This is what we say and if a Sahih hadith is brought to us which goes against what we say then out opinion is viod and we will take the Sahih hadith' And Allah knows best.
    The Position of Hands in Qiyaam - Detailed discussion

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    Re: The Position of Hands in Qiyaam - Detailed discussion



    Interesting discussion. However, I hope this thread doesn't turn in to a debate about whether or not a woman's prayer is the same as the man's prayer, or taqleed, as there are other threads on that topic. So if anyone wants to discuss that, kindly take that discussion to that thread. JazakAllah khayr.


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    Re: The Position of Hands in Qiyaam - Detailed discussion

    format_quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi View Post
    Wa Aleykum Salam Wa Rhametullah,

    The hadith;

    2. Hadhrat Ali (RA) states, ”To place one palm over the other beneath the navel is from the sunnah of salaah.“8

    It is a known fact that whenever a Sahaahi utters the words. ‘It is from the sunnah.’ They mean it is being directly reported from Rasoolullah (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) himself. However, the hadith does contain Abdur Rahman lbn Ishaaq in its chain of transmission who is classified as weak but the narration will be still accepted as supplementary evidence, because there are also other reports which reinforce it.

    Is admittedly weak and only accepted if supplementary evidence is found.

    brother the references are there for you to study further, and supplementary evidence is found as there are other proofs for this poistion, that why it is concluded the ahadith of the Hanafis have a relatively less amount of criticism directed at them and they also have other reports which are quite strong to supplement those weak ones.

    and thatswhy, in Hanafi madhab and Hanbali Madhab the placing of the hands below the navel is a more sound position.

    the video shared is a little proof. (they are mostly hanbalis there ).

    format_quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi View Post
    5. Abu Hurayrah (RA) narrates, “The placing of one hand over the other in salaah is beneath the navel“ (11)

    I would have wanted to see the chain of this hadith too.
    you should buy these two books to see the chain of narrators of this hadith collected by two great Muhadith Imam Bayhaqi and Imam Ibn Abi Shayhbah

    8. Bayhaqi 312 Ibn Abi Shayhbah 391:1
    11. Al Jawaharun Naqi 31:2.

    as it is marked the chain of transmission of hadith hasan.

    (and if you want to study the bio. of each of chain of narrators then you need to buy other books as well, neway its your concern).



    format_quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi View Post

    Also brother, with regards to this:


    it was replied,

    This is incorrect again. Although it may be Mutawatir, the Hanafi Madhab basis its opinion on various hadith to support their view.

    How is it incorrect, just curious. Furthermore a Mutawwatir hadith is the stronger out of all others, so that's done and dusted or am I wrong?
    yes brother, unfortunately you (and mostly all of us layman) know very little about this fiqhi issue thats why we make a nonsense statement.

    The hanafi madhab do not reject these mutawaatir hadith rather they accept all of these hadith, and they also accept the later hadith when our prophet Muhammad sallallahu aliahi wa sallam left raising his hands more than once in salaah, so thus the prominent sahabah (companions of Rasullullah) and so thus the hanafis too.


    I'll shared one proof with chain of transmitter in my previous post, i shall make a new thread insha'Allah in which i 'll show some well known proofs of tark'al raf'aldain (more than once in salaah) from hundred of hundred proofs.



    jazak Allah khair (to mod for allowing me to post i was in hurry yesterday and cldnt reply to it).
    The Position of Hands in Qiyaam - Detailed discussion

    Hadith: "The best of my community are my generation, and then those who follow them, and then those who follow them" [related by Imran ibn al-Husayn in Bukhari].



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