Hello everyone. One of the biggests problems I'm having as a convert is the large change in my "values system." I brought it up a little on the other board but there are many values that I'm learning in Islam (such a treatment of woman, homosexuals, apostates amoung other things) that are completely different from the value system I was brought up with (in the West).
Understanding the explanations behind these things has helped, but there are still some things that I am accepting on faith alone that God knows best - things that in my western mentality don't seem "right" to me. And I still hear the little nagging voice in my head of my parents/former teachers telling me the non-Islamic way.
Did you guys have a little nagging voice? How did you get rid of it?
How did you go about telling your family about your change in values system. For example I used to be 100% prochoice (I mean like going to marches and stuff) - no not so much. It seems very strange to say "well I used to believe very strongly in that but not anymore?"
Eesa - Thanks for the PM yeah I really understand what you mean - for awhile I had just left the whole Fatawa thing and tried to really look if I believe Islam is from God and develop my relationship with God. This has been much more productive for me but sometimes I still get stuck.
Thanks for the explanations, and yes as I do explore I do see more the logic behind the reasons. But what still gets me (and maybe will get me for a long time) is this kind of thought process:
Islam says: Listen to your husband.
My own voice screaming: This is wrong you are your own person you do what you want. You have been taught that since you were little!
Then the other voice pops in: No you need to look at the reason behind it, have faith in god, etc etc.
See what I mean how its a constant battle in my head? And this is only in my own head - forget trying to explain it to others.
Please don't think I'm talking bad about Islam, I do understand there is a reason behind all these things and I really appreciate all the suggestions and it is really conforting to know there are people out there to help me, at least on the computer.
a man is supposed to listen to his wife too, you know! kay:
Just keep focus and praying and ask Allah to guide you and keep the nay-sayers away. ANd once they see that you are focused and happy, they will come around and treat you with up most respect. Trust me, I know!
Sure listen to your husband.... but a husband should also listen and honor his wife's wishes.... to be a good Muslim goes both ways... in other words it isn't encumbent upon just you (woman) to be good.... but on the man as well....
here read this... courtesy of bros. Ansar.
i disagree....tell me which Muslim knows everything?
im saying, accept Islam, based on the love and understanding u have. knwing its the path of truth. the other small things which may be doubts in ur mind are not reason enuf not to accept Islam. but purely a way for us to have a thirst for knowledge.
I often have doubts, but i would never denounce Islam. I have full trust in Allah and know that these doubts will be cleared up, I just need to find the answers.
As is it sed in one of Dr Zakirs lectures.... non-Muslim " I could accept Islam - but i could never give up drinking" Muslim "so accept Islam, put ur full faith in Allah and inshallah He will guide you" non-Muslim " How can I be a Muslim and drink" Muslim " All Muslims commit sins, but that doesnt mean we should shy away from the truth. try to complete as many other good deeds."
I dont remember how the whole conversation went, but the moral is, Its better to accept Islam and slowly try to cut down ur sins. Than to stop sinning and thn accept Islam. what if u spent ur whole life trying to stop sinning and never accepted Islam....It might end up too late
Rabi'ya:rose:
totally agree with you.
All of them worship out of fear of fire
and consider deliverance abundant good fortune
or so they may dwell in the gardens , and reach to the meadows of paradise and there drink from its rivers
of gardens or fire i have no opinion
I seek no exchange for my Dearest Love
Eesa - Thanks for the PM yeah I really understand what you mean - for awhile I had just left the whole Fatawa thing and tried to really look if I believe Islam is from God and develop my relationship with God. This has been much more productive for me but sometimes I still get stuck.
Thanks for the explanations, and yes as I do explore I do see more the logic behind the reasons. But what still gets me (and maybe will get me for a long time) is this kind of thought process:
Islam says: Listen to your husband.
My own voice screaming: This is wrong you are your own person you do what you want. You have been taught that since you were little!
Then the other voice pops in: No you need to look at the reason behind it, have faith in god, etc etc.
See what I mean how its a constant battle in my head? And this is only in my own head - forget trying to explain it to others.
Please don't think I'm talking bad about Islam, I do understand there is a reason behind all these things and I really appreciate all the suggestions and it is really conforting to know there are people out there to help me, at least on the computer.
Husband AND wife should listen to each other..they should respect each other love each other be kind to each other..
Sister i would advice you not to delve into fatawas as it can be very confusing to a newly converted person..just stick to the Qur'an and get yourself good..and i mean good! books on Islam....from an author whos from the west like yourself.
Regarding the issue of women..i know there are women out there who want to convert to Islam but can't imagine themselves in a hijaab..those sisters with their limited understanding of Islam think hijaab= muslim and no hijaab= you're not a muslim or not good enough to convert to Islam how wrong they are!!!...there are other sisters who decide to wear the hijaab after a while 2 -3 years..some wear it immediately..others dont bother to wear it...though i must say these are a minority..So don't put off converting to Islam..because of some cloth..the wearing of which in todays dangerous world is not a wise decision...(i do wear it..but every second of my life i fear for my life..this has made me question if its wiser for me to not wear it at all )
regarding homosexuality...you should understand that many such people have experienced sexual abuse , neglect, abandonment etc..we have to understand the underlying social causes of homosexuality...was it an absent father/mother? was it sexual abuse/rape?? is it because they were/are in confined places for years and years with little or no privacy? like the army, prison..where they practically see each other naked taking a bath , urinating etc etc?..we have to ask ourselves all these questions.
one recent programme that i watched on The Jeremy kyle show was this man..who had a sex change..then married a woman and now hes distraught because she wants to have a sex change to become a man!! and he wanted to have kids with her!..now isnt that just freaky? the man always wanted to be in a lesbian relationship..he doesnt like other men..its just that he wanted to change his sex! what is going on!
regarding apostacy..i have posted some excellent articles about this on this forum before when i do find it ill give you the link inshaAllah..Islam doesnt tell us to kill apostates..if you read the Qur'an Allah talks about people who have believed THEN disbelieved THEN believed THEN disbelieved..yet the only punishment is the one in the next life no worldly punishment in fact Allah tells us to 'leave them alone'..read up about it sister and search for the answers for yourself..donot depend on fatawas read the Qur'an...the best guidance.
All of them worship out of fear of fire
and consider deliverance abundant good fortune
or so they may dwell in the gardens , and reach to the meadows of paradise and there drink from its rivers
of gardens or fire i have no opinion
I seek no exchange for my Dearest Love
I guess this isn't the place with regards to speak about what the Qu'ran says or not as such, but I will say, I hope that once you do become a Muslim, IF you do, then I hope that you will be a Muslim, one that submits inshaAllah, because it is easy to become a person who claims to be muslim, but then at the same time give in to our own desires and then change or adapt their understanding of Islaam to suit their needs.
All of us have problems with our desires, and all of us will battle desires, I just hope that we can all be of those who will not reject truth because our desires does not agree with it, but rather who will understand the truth and understand the conflict between the truth and our desires and then try our best to submit and obey Almighty G-d, for truly he knows what is best.
Eesa
The path is long but I hope we meet,
After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.
A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.
I know exactly how you feel, I felt the same way when I found out about the punishment for apostasy but eventually for some reason I just snapped and I just accepted it willingly as God's (SWT) will...
i totally understand what u r saying sis (or is it too early to call u sis ??). muslim nowdays r also under attack of the so called "western values" and thats why some ppl (including muslims themselves) might think (and also say out loud) that islam is backward.
but lets look at it from a different point of view, many of these western values have proven themselves to be wrong (and sometimes even lethal). a good example is zina or dating. i remember i read a hadith (but im sorry i dont remember the exact words) about a young man who asked the prophet to allow him to commit zina so the prophet asked him "do u like that for ur sister?" and he answered "no". the prophet then said "and nobody likes that for his sister too". now if u say that today, ppl will laugh at u and think u r some sort of a cave(wo)man coz the concept of gheerah (jealousy) no longer exists these days. but today, more than ever, we know why fornicating is adultry r haram thanks to the (huge) number of SEXUAL transmitted diseases and teenage pregnancies and so forth. but ppl in the time of the prophet didnt know that but they still have chosen to follow him coz as they say "Allah and his prophet know best".
Allah does know best and when he says homosexuality is a disorder u have to believe him coz he knows what hes talking about and dont be fooled by all the westerners who think its savage we punish homosexuals coz they dont know best.
islam says obey ur husband but it also says there should be no obedience to any created being if it involves disobedience of the Creator. that sounds like a contradiction in islam but it isnt. ur husband have rights upon u like u have rights upon him. u r asked to listen to him and he is asked to respect, love and look after u, so dont be fooled by (not) muslim males who will tell u otherwise.
i was born muslim and i also have doubts sometimes about some values coz i was exposed to the western values and i dont live in the west (thanks to tv ) and i tell u islam can be a hard religion to understand sometimes and u have to look deep deep inside to understand it
wishing u all the best in ur journey and insha'allah one day we'll have the great honour to hear (or actually read) u saying shahada and announcing ur islam......
Yea am still confused, am guessing you haven't converted yet but your thinking yourself as one I know the feeling
Anyhow, I mean, any person who has been brought up in a certain way to believe 'this' is right and 'that' is wrong, and then to be told 'no no no, 'this' is wrong and 'that' is right' is a big thing and something you have to adjust to, for example, I was a christian, and you know how we Christians are, 'turn the other cheek' and so forth, it took me a while to get used to the fact that battles were allowed and having swordss and so on, alot of things to me take me a while to totally feel natural with, and yes sometimes theres a voice nagging 'but..but...I don't get it' and stuff like that, but personally the way I see it is, if I have found out that Islaam is the right path, and the Qu'ran is indeed the word of G-d and Muhammad, peace be upon him, is needed a messenger, then what ever is in the Qu'ran and what ever Muhammad peace be upon him say, are from G-d and it is done with the best of understanding and the best of Judgement, I always tell people, we as humans only can see upto the horizon where G-d may see above and beyond, so sometimes what doesn't make sense to me, I reconcile with the fact that I know for sure Islaam is right, so I need not worry.
I hope that made sense lol
salaam
why cant i help but feel as tho theres a slant to this post
im sure in cristianity battles are "allowed" as a matter of fact there are many versus in the bible that talk about perchasing swords and preparing for battles
that doesnt exactly preach turning the other cheek
there are also many versus in Quran that teach us to have paitients and to do good to those even as they try to harm us so really those comments are way out of line
Thank you guys for all the support - its really nice to know that even Muslims struggle with their desires
Yes - I do understand that if I convert I should not change Islam to serve my needs (haha trust me its something I thought of)
I was a Christian before but only in a very loose sense and never really followed anything the church said. So I guess the whole idea of giving up what you want for God is a new/scary thing for me. But hopefully I can get through it.
Thank you guys for all the support - its really nice to know that even Muslims struggle with their desires
Yes - I do understand that if I convert I should not change Islam to serve my needs (haha trust me its something I thought of)
I was a Christian before but only in a very loose sense and never really followed anything the church said. So I guess the whole idea of giving up what you want for God is a new/scary thing for me. But hopefully I can get through it.
Thank you all for the resonses
Sister, sister, sister,
in real terms, you give up ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!! AT ALL!!! NADA!!!
and you gain EVERYTHING!!!!!
if dunya and akhira were on a balance, one, (dunya) is the size of a little tiny, tiny little speck, while the other is a big as all of creation itself!!!!
feel a little uneasy, just walk into any masaajid and you'll find the most amazing folks you've EVER met! (of course, i don't recommend that a sister do THAT uncovered!)
feel a little unsure, how about that the Most Amazing, Merciful, Generous, Forgiving Creator is ON YOUR SIDE!!!
need encouragement, read a book (better to listen to one though) on the Rassululah Muhammed (pbuh). meh, a lecture is better. hard to cry to a book!!
you only think you'll be missing out. if you're not a Muslim, you ARE missing out!!
why cant i help but feel as tho theres a slant to this post
im sure in cristianity battles are "allowed" as a matter of fact there are many versus in the bible that talk about perchasing swords and preparing for battles
that doesnt exactly preach turning the other cheek
I don't know if you totally understood my post sister, I did not speak about what the Bible totally teaches,
format_quote Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
..for example, I was a christian, and you know how we Christians are, 'turn the other cheek' and so forth,...
I don't know if your aware that a christian does not neccesarily mean one who totally and wholly follows eachverse of the Bible, if you actually spoke to Christians, you will find many of them peaceful, this is based on their understanding of their scripture, whether that understanding is right or wrong , thats something we can debate about, but I don't think you can tell me, whether when I was a Christian I was not, as many are, the 'peaceful protest, turning other cheek' type.
Just as someone who calls themselves Muslim does not always mean they follow the Qu'ran properly, so some Christians are the same.
format_quote Originally Posted by Quruxbadaan
there are also many versus in Quran that teach us to have paitients and to do good to those even as they try to harm us so really those comments are way out of line
just had to point that out
Maa salaama
Just wondering, were you a Christian? Also, I didnt mean that Islam taught brutality and inhumane acts, nor did my post state that, all I said was:
format_quote Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
it took me a while to get used to the fact that battles were allowed and having swordss and so on,
For example, in the new testament there is no explicit verse which commands someone to physically fight, so it is not something many Christians believe in, there is a passage (which is deemed to be a later insertion) which is famous, 'let ye of no sin cast the first stone' so the understanding is that those who do wrong are going to be judged by G-d thats it, thats something else I had to adjust to, laws which command stoning, other cases such as the state and religion being one and not secular, and the differences of some Christian's belief and that of Islaam are probably unlistable.
Eesa.
The path is long but I hope we meet,
After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.
A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.
For example I used to be 100% prochoice (I mean like going to marches and stuff) - no not so much. It seems very strange to say "well I used to believe very strongly in that but not anymore?"
Hmmm, I would just like to say that you know, you can still be 100% pro-choice. I mean, Islam does not rule out abortion completely. If the mother's and/or baby's life is in danger, or her pregnancy was the result of rape, Islam does not say that she cannot or should not terminate. We are not the ones attacking abortion clinics, you know what I mean?
Yeah, Islam does not condone someone getting an abortion just because she thinks she is not ready for the responsibility (if you are responsible enough for the deed, you are responsible enough for the consequences)...but we do have allowances for when it might be necessary.
Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans. But at least the wub is back.
Hello everyone. One of the biggests problems I'm having as a convert is the large change in my "values system." I brought it up a little on the other board but there are many values that I'm learning in Islam (such a treatment of woman, homosexuals, apostates amoung other things) that are completely different from the value system I was brought up with (in the West).
Understanding the explanations behind these things has helped, but there are still some things that I am accepting on faith alone that God knows best - things that in my western mentality don't seem "right" to me. And I still hear the little nagging voice in my head of my parents/former teachers telling me the non-Islamic way.
Did you guys have a little nagging voice? How did you get rid of it?
How did you go about telling your family about your change in values system. For example I used to be 100% prochoice (I mean like going to marches and stuff) - no not so much. It seems very strange to say "well I used to believe very strongly in that but not anymore?"
salaam christina,
let us look at the way most muslims look at such situations as many people born into muslim families also have this problem? did you know that?
by that i mean many people are brought up upon a culture different than islam, some parts of it are islamically allowable. some are not and how do we know which is good and which bad and which indifferent?
well we have the guide of the Quran and sunnah, that is our criteria and many knowledgeable scholars will be able to answer your questions as to what is right or wrong in islam.
so this Quran is the word of God, we take it as a literal guidence from the almightly creator, so if God told you himself that homosexuality was wrong you would go 'wow, yeah didnt see it before but if they big guy says so then it must be so.'
this is the sort of guidence the Quran gives us, it is sometimes quite direct and occassionally it is a little more metaphorical but you take this book as your guidence.
now this book also tells you take the example of the prophet Muhammad saws and to obey him.
so you think, 'ok now God tells me i must obey and love this man and use him as my example in life'
now you see if you take it like this, that God is teaching you through the Quran and sunnah what is right and wrong then it becomes easier to accept.
Hmmm, I would just like to say that you know, you can still be 100% pro-choice. I mean, Islam does not rule out abortion completely. If the mother's and/or baby's life is in danger, or her pregnancy was the result of rape, Islam does not say that she cannot or should not terminate. We are not the ones attacking abortion clinics, you know what I mean?
I think most people would agree that there are reasons which may justify the need for an abortion (the examples you gave are a few of those)
Pro-choicers in their most extreme form, however, would advocate that it is a woman's right to do with her body as she chooses, so she can choose to have an abortion for no reason other than not wanting to be pregnant.
(Would you agree with my perception on that, Christina?)
For most Muslims and Christians that statement in that extreme form is not in line with their religious teachings, and therefore not acceptable!
In that sense I would query whether your statement that as a Muslim 'you can still be 100% pro-choice' is correct ...
Peace
Peace glo
Here I stand.
I can do no other.
May God help me.
Amen.
Come, let us worship and bow down •
and kneel before the Lord our Maker
[Psalm 95]
For most Muslims and Christians that statement in that extreme form is not in line with their religious teachings, and therefore not acceptable!
In that sense I would query whether your statement that as a Muslim 'you can still be 100% pro-choice' is correct ...
Peace
In the sense of having abortions for the idea that one simply does not wish to be pregnant, no, you are correct, Islam is 0% pro-choice. Absolutely correct. However, the concept of pro-choice has rather been hijacked by that very irresponsible crowd. And it often comes down to all or nothing, with proposals being made that victims of incest who become pregnant should not be allowed the option of abortion. And it often seems as though those who are in the evangelical Christian group (and they are the ones given the majority of the publicity) support such proposals. Whereas in Islam, such debates should not even be arising. Whether they do or not, in predominantly Muslim countries, I do not know.
But, in the normal terms of the abortion debate, where does Islam fall? I would say 100% pro-choice. (By normal, I am thinking of those with reason to abort.) I have never heard of Christian groups coming out and condemning the more ridiculous of the anti-abortion propositions...but then again, I obviously cannot hear/read every news report out there. Please feel free inform me of such
And that was my only point really...as Chris4336 raised the concern that she is having a difficult time reconciling her pro-choice principles with what Islam may be dictating. Islam values the sanctity of life; and Islam also values the impact of those situations of need, where a woman may need to address such issues. It is not all or nothing; there is a middle path. And I would guess that the middle path of both true Christianity and Islam do get rather diluted.
Peace
Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans. But at least the wub is back.
I guess I was pointing out that 100% pro-choice is actually a rather extreme view, which Islam does not agree with.
But it was a fairly petty point to make, and I apologise if I have taken this thread off topic!
[The church I attend runs a pregnancy crisis support group for women with unwanted pregnancies. Many opt for an abortion out of fear, worry or confusion. And many suffer afterwards, because the guilt can be so overwhelming (Less so, perhaps, if there was a 'justifiable reason' for the abortion, but often guilt nonetheless - because taking a young life is a very grave thing to do indeed ... even if the law is more lenient!)
Still off-topic ... :rolleyes: ]
Peace
Last edited by glo; 11-22-2006 at 06:57 AM.
Peace glo
Here I stand.
I can do no other.
May God help me.
Amen.
Come, let us worship and bow down •
and kneel before the Lord our Maker
[Psalm 95]
^ No, no, glo, it was not a petty point at all! I think it was an important part of the discussion to highlight, absolutely. But I guess thats for Christina to say, huh?
Thank you!
Peace
Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans. But at least the wub is back.
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kay:
??). muslim nowdays r also under attack of the so called "western values" and thats why some ppl (including muslims themselves) might think (and also say out loud) that islam is backward. 
) and i tell u islam can be a hard religion to understand sometimes and u have to look deep deep inside to understand it
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