confused! :(

[Malaikah]

Ok, so I'm in second year optometry and I am thinking of changing my course to something else because in my profession I will be forced to work with male patients, touch their faces and put my own face like 2 cm away from theirs.

From what I understand, it is haram for women to treat male patient (and vice versa) unless there is an extreme and specific need to do so, such as there is no male doctor the male can go to so I have to treat him so he doesn't die or something.

Everyone is against me (relatives, that is). They ALL think that is permissible for women to treat men because treating people is a wonderful thing and that your intention is to help them and that doctor type people are given special leave from their lord to work with the opposite sex. I personally don't see how that is so.

Other arguments include:

- why don't you just drop out of uni, go get married and sit at home.:X

-God gave you a trust- he gave you the intellect to get good results and get into a course that not many people can achieve. You haven't got the right to say no, I don't want this honour, and to throw away the gift that God has given you. You can't just turn around and say to God, "I do not want your blessing".

-In addition to above, you went from a superior career (i.e. a career were you help people and people respect you) to something totally inferior (I am considering being a teacher inshaallah). Apparently teachers are looked down upon and not respected, the kids treat them like dirt, whereas everyone respects optometrists.

I struck a deal with my uncle, he said he would take me to three scholars and if even one of them said it is haram then he will leave me to it and support me, inshaallah. But if they all say it is halal then I have to stay in my course. (I bumped the number up to three in case we got stuck with someone who said it was halal)

Need advice! Does anyone know of any scholarly position that supports what my relatives say?

Oh, and by the way, optometry was the only thing I ever wanted to study, and it kills me that I have to drop it. So it isn't like I am just trying to drop it because I do not like it or something.

[AnonymousPoster]

From what I understand, it is haram for women to treat male patient (and vice versa) unless there is an extreme and specific need to do so, such as there is no male doctor the male can go to so I have to treat him so he doesn't die or something.

yep ur right.

Allahu alam i asked sum1 abt this... they said perhaps you can run your own clinic where you hire out a male optom and redirect male patients to him and female patients to yourself (that way they cant say its discrimination coz you do it as an administrative routine..)

about the issue while your studying... i don't think im in a position to make fatwa, however.. there's 2 things.. perhaps you can ask islamqa or a proper scholar whether its halal to study under those conditions coz you're forced. and then when you're practising your field you can apply the adivse given in top paragraph?

secondly... if optometry is a necessity for Muslims (i.e. eye disease is wide spread somewhere for xample.. n not enough sisters out there to help) and you plan to go to one of those countries in need.. it may be OK if you're forced when ur studying.. since there's greater benefit to coem when you're practising in whatever country that desperately needs your skills (and you're able to practice in halal environment... e.g. 3rd world muslim country 4 axmple)

Everyone is against me (relatives, that is). They ALL think that is permissible for women to treat men because treating people is a wonderful thing and that your intention is to help them and that doctor type people are given special leave from their lord to work with the opposite sex. I personally don't see how that is so.

don't stress, didn't "they ALL think" that muhammad should quit his views because its a wonderful thing to keep makkah all united on same views they where blindly on...

you're in a position of power not weakness, and wallahi i can guarentee you they're looking at you with anger and ambivalence at you're courage to take a firm stand that most Muslims would chicken out from (very very very few Muslims hav the courage to do that mashalah, look around n u'll see) they don't even pretend to use an islamic excuse for the illegal professions they're in.

Other arguments include:

- why don't you just drop out of uni, go get married and sit at home.:X

lol that's a sign you're on the right side.. how's that an argument

as if marriage was for losers :enough!:

-God gave you a trust- he gave you the intellect to get good results and get into a course that not many people can achieve. You haven't got the right to say no, I don't want this honour, and to through away the gift that God has given you.

God gave us a trust and he set down the guidelines to fulfill this trust in.

Unless they can prove that your field is in dire need by Muslims, or they're hinting that you should use your knowledge in some super poor 3rd world country... then they havn't got any basis for their argument.

-In addition to above, you went from a superior career (i.e. a career were you help people and people respect you) to something totally inferior (I am considering being a teacher inshaallah). Apparently teachers are looked down upon and not respected, the kid treat them like dirt, whereas everyone respects optometrists.

How's teaching inferior? The generation of tomorrow depends on the teachers of today.

And if they judge superiority by dunya standards, then remember that the beggars and poor people of quraysh who became Muslims are much higher in Allah's eyes than the rich and elite of quraysh who refused Allahs orders.

Alhamdulilah in islam we only judge people by piety, not by profession, and people are only regarded as noble in their profession when their profession is used to obey Allah.

How is a job where you sin while you're working a form of honor?

i'll reply 2 the other bit below inshalha

[glo]

Greetings, Malaikah

I am sorry to hear about the struggle you are going through.

I have to agree with those who say that being able to help others is something that God desires us to so, or even asks of us.
I am particularly struck by you saying how being an optometrist is all you have ever wanted to do. That sounds to me like that is God's calling on your life, and he has put that desire on your heart.
Personally I think denying and refusing a God-given gift is a real shame, if not even a sin.

But of course this is the perspective of a non-Muslim, and you will have to get Islamic advice elsewhere ...

Could you not wear gloves, when touching your patients' faces?

I hope you find a satisfactory solution, sister.

Peace

[AnonymousPoster]

I struck a deal with my uncle, he said he would take me to three scholars and if even one of them said it is haram then he will leave me to it and support me, inshaallah. But if they all say it is halal hen I have to stay in my course. (I bumped the number up to three in case we got stuck with someone who said it was halal)

Just make it clear that scholars are not divine people. We respect them coz of their use of knowledge and putting it into practice.

If someone claims to be a scholar and makes up statements without proof, he's no different to any other layman.

So... unless he brings proof and can prove that it's fine to discard the rulign regarding inter-gender behaviour when it comes to professions which aren't in extreme cases. And if he can prove taht optometry is the only field where shaytan doesn't try make fitnah in... using quran and hadith... then we'll listen and obey.

Need advice! Does anyone know of any scholarly position that supports what my relatives say?

im sure there's a cave-load of them... whether they have proof or not is a diff story.

[AnonymousPoster]

^ and finally

make dua and ask Allah for help, you're in a similar position to Musa and his people, Musa was worried as well, and he got even more worried when he saw the magicians..... in your case.. the scholars without evidence are the magicians trying to suck you in.

ws wr wb

[AnonymousPoster]

PS: (ok lol this will b my final input!!)

i wasn't tryin 2 say ur wrong or nething in the first 2 or so paragraphs... they where just suggestions n i personally recomend it only if you're definately definately sure it's a viable solution, the prsn who sed that wasn't a doc so it could be illegal as well lol i dunno... if there's doubts, then better stay away inshalah and you'll never regret Allah being pleased with you

[Malaikah]

I have to agree with those who say that being able to help others is something that God desires us to so, or even asks of us.

No doubt, it is for sure a wonderful thing to do. But to do it in a way that is against God's laws, then it becomes pointless.

I am particularly struck by you saying how being an optometrist is all you have ever wanted to do. That sounds to me like that is God's calling on your life, and he has put that desire on your heart.
Personally I think denying and refusing a God-given gift is a real shame, if not even a sin.

All I've ever wanted, well for a year and a half now, before that I didn't know what I wanted, and when I wanted to be an optometrist I never wanted anything else.

Alternatively, it could be that God is testing to see what I more beloved to me, obeying him, or following my desires and doing a job that I love and that gives me respect in this life, but disrespect in the hereafter.

Could you not wear gloves, when touching your patients' faces?

My lecturer suggested that too. I don't think so, I mean, by that logic it would be ok to do almost anything with the opposite gender and long as you don't touch skin to skin... it doesn;t really work that way in Islam.

I hope you find a satisfactory solution, sister.

Thank you.

[Malaikah]

they where just suggestions n i personally recomend it only if you're definately definately sure it's a viable solution, the prsn who sed that wasn't a doc so it could be illegal as well lol i dunno...

If I do that, I would need A LOT of cash to rent out a piece of land, I would need a lot of business in order to have two optometrists working in the same place, I would also need to provide my patients with glasses options and stuff (again $$$), plus I would need to hire a secretary to handle the patients and take orders for glasses and deal with the non-optom and business side of things.

Plus I would have to be working full time if I run the place...

And then we need to assume that it is even legal to do that... and then I need to find an optometrist who is even willing to take such a job where he is going to have such a low number of patients and probably have a low pay...

Too complicated.

Jazakallah khayr for your advice though.

[snakelegs]

hi,
i think i had an Intelligent Idea. actually 2 of them:
limit your practice to children. you could have all kinds of special child-proof decor, so it would be a fun place for kids to go to, even tho getting glasses is no fun.
i think you're in UK. if so, the muslim population is large enough that you could limit your practice to women (along with children). i am sure that a lot of muslim women would love to go to an optomotrist where they would have privacy and could see how they look when they try on glasses - both with hijab and without.
years ago, i read about an orthodox jew who started a women-only gym in jerusalem for orthodox women and it was very successful.
maybe you don't have to give up your dream after all.

[lolwatever]

hi,
i think i had an Intelligent Idea. actually 2 of them:
limit your practice to children. you could have all kinds of special child-proof decor, so it would be a fun place for kids to go to, even tho getting glasses is no fun.
i think you're in UK. if so, the muslim population is large enough that you could limit your practice to women (along with children). i am sure that a lot of muslim women would love to go to an optomotrist where they would have privacy and could see how they look when they try on glasses - both with hijab and without.
years ago, i read about an orthodox jew who started a women-only gym in jerusalem for orthodox women and it was very successful.
maybe you don't have to give up your dream after all.

but apaprently when it comse 2 med its illegal where malaikah livs ffended:

[Malaikah]

Thanks snakelegs,

The kids idea came to me too, but I just don't think there would be much work in restricting my practise only to kids...

Also, I don't live in the UK, but we have a large-ish Muslim population where I live, but even then it isn't enough for good business.

even tho getting glasses is no fun.

Getting glasses is fun! It is the best feeling to put on your glasses for the first time and look out the window into the parking lot and think 'wow is that what the world really looks like'

[snakelegs]

(sigh) - another Brilliant Idea Flop.
not even with proper advertising/marketing and novel kiddie gimmicks?
i'm in u.s. when i went to school 102 years ago, optometrists used to come around to schools and check kids' eyes - don't know if they still do.
well, it's great to be able to see, but not fun to have to wear glasses for an active kid, tho i guess a lot of kids these days get contacts.
is there anything interesting about the process of making lenses? probably not, and it probably doesn't pay all that great either, but it's a thought. (note: not billed as Intelligent).

[lolwatever]

(sigh) - another Brilliant Idea Flop.
not even with proper advertising/marketing and novel kiddie gimmicks?
i'm in u.s. when i went to school 102 years ago, optometrists used to come around to schools and check kids' eyes - don't know if they still do.
well, it's great to be able to see, but not fun to have to wear glasses for an active kid, tho i guess a lot of kids these days get contacts.
is there anything interesting about the process of making lenses? probably not, and it probably doesn't pay all that great either, but it's a thought. (note: not billed as Intelligent).

isn't that more to do with materials science/engineern tho

or do optoms do tht as well?


ps: @ the 102 years ago

[snakelegs]

hmmmm....probably not. tonite is not my nite.

[Malaikah]

My uncle and dad took me to see some sheikhs today...

One of them said straight out its HALAL (), the other one said it is haram but the Muslims need Muslim female doctors, and to wear gloves if I have to see male patients and leave the door a tiny bit open so we aren't *totally* alone in the semi-dark room... and then when I can, open up my own practise and transfer all male patients to him/her...

Inshaallah tomorrow I'm going to see one more sheikh, hopefully he will have a more convincing answer...

[snakelegs]

i hope a way will be found that you can follow your dream.

[AnonymousPoster]

My uncle and dad took me to see some sheikhs today...

One of them said straight out its HALAL (), the other one said it is haram but the Muslims need Muslim female doctors, and to wear gloves if I have to see male patients and to leave the door a tiny bit open so we aren't *totally* alone in the semi-dark room... and then when I can, open up my own practise and transfer all male patients to him/her...

Inshaallah tomorrow I'm going to see one more sheikh, hopefully he will have a more convincing answer...

lol... man srsly who cares if the door is closed or open ... the point is shaytan is good at stirring things up. i'm not claiming to make an answr, but i can definately say that's not a valid answer.

n Muslims defiantely need professional/educated/well-suited educationists more than they do optometrists. It's perfectly fine for muslimah to visit a non Muslim female optom... whereas the issue is more sensitiv when it comes to specific non-eye related medical issues.

they're making fatawa to save themselvse from your uncles anger... that's wat it seems to be.

that tiny door open thing is a joke tho lol... srsly...

[Malaikah]

lol... man srsly who cares if the door is closed or open ... the point is shaytan is good at stirring things up. i'm not claiming to make an answr, but i can definately say that's not a valid answer.

That's what I thought exactly.

n Muslims defiantely need professional/educated/well-suited educationists more than they do optometrists. It's perfectly fine for muslimah to visit a non Muslim female optom... whereas the issue is more sensitiv when it comes to specific non-eye related medical issues.

Yeh that is sooo true.

they're making fatawa to save themselvse from your uncles anger... that's wat it seems to be.

Nah my uncle was never angry, just upset. Plus he wasn't bias at all when he explained it to the sheikh... the sheikh even said that if he had a daughter he would love if she did optometry.

Well I just hope Allah gets me a sheikh who will say straight out that it is haram so I can at least tell anyone who bugs me about it that sheikh so and so said it is haram and that I'm not just following my own opinions...

Oh, btw, the sheikh recommended I try ask Sheikh Yusuf Qaradawi, I tried to ask a question on his website but I can't get one in!! Anyway, is he any good?

My uncle seems to be avoided any sheikhs who are 'salafi-ish'...:X

i hope a way will be found that you can follow your dream.

hehe thanks, but to be honest, even though I was devastated at the start, I'm kinda over it, the alternative is cool it self and easier for me and more beneficial also, I mean, the optometry course is really full-on and hard... science/teaching is way easier alhamdulilah... (and a year shorter too)

[Muslim Woman]

I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)


&&&

Ok, so I'm in second year optometry and I am thinking of changing my course to something else because in my profession I will be forced to work with male patients, touch their faces and put my own face like 2 cm away from theirs.

From what I understand, it is haram for women to treat male patient (and vice versa) unless there is an extreme and specific need to do so, such as there is no male doctor the male can go to so I have to treat him so he doesn't die or something.

Everyone is against me (relatives, that is). They ALL think that is permissible for women to treat men because treating people is a wonderful thing and that your intention is to help them and that doctor type people are given special leave from their lord to work with the opposite sex. I personally don't see how that is so.

Other arguments include:

- why don't you just drop out of uni, go get married and sit at home.:X

-God gave you a trust- he gave you the intellect to get good results and get into a course that not many people can achieve. You haven't got the right to say no, I don't want this honour, and to throw away the gift that God has given you. You can't just turn around and say to God, "I do not want your blessing".

-In addition to above, you went from a superior career (i.e. a career were you help people and people respect you) to something totally inferior (I am considering being a teacher inshaallah). Apparently teachers are looked down upon and not respected, the kids treat them like dirt, whereas everyone respects optometrists.

I struck a deal with my uncle, he said he would take me to three scholars and if even one of them said it is haram then he will leave me to it and support me, inshaallah. But if they all say it is halal then I have to stay in my course. (I bumped the number up to three in case we got stuck with someone who said it was halal)

Need advice! Does anyone know of any scholarly position that supports what my relatives say?

Oh, and by the way, optometry was the only thing I ever wanted to study, and it kills me that I have to drop it. So it isn't like I am just trying to drop it because I do not like it or something.

----pl. sis , offer Ishthekhara prayer before taking any imp decision. May Allah grant u what is good for u , Ameen.

[zircon]

May Allah make it easy inshaAllah. I agree with Muslim Woman.. istikhara