Did Jesus of the Bible sin?

[john316]

All right I think that this is the best place to put this question to muslims. I heard from one of you guys that Jesus in the Bible did sin. Now I suspect that you are probably alluding to the claim He made of Himself being God. Apart from that did he sin? Show me where in the Bible does it say that he sinned. Of course I know he makes some controversial statements but I believe he did say them for a reason.

[john316]

I am waiting............

[MustafaMc]

All right I think that this is the best place to put this question to muslims. I heard from one of you guys that Jesus in the Bible did sin. Now I suspect that you are probably alluding to the claim He made of Himself being God. Apart from that did he sin? Show me where in the Bible does it say that he sinned. Of course I know he makes some controversial statements but I believe he did say them for a reason.

In Islam, we believe that all of the prophets and messengers of Allah were sinless.

sin 1 a: an offense against religious or moral law b: an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible c: an often serious shortcoming : fault 2 a: transgression of the law of God b: a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from God

One of the 10 Commandments "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy" Exodus 20:8-11, is emphasized as to its importance in the Judaic Law in Exodus 31:12-17, 35:1-9.

In the Bible Jesus (as) healed on the Sabbath (Matthew 12:13, Mark 3:3, Luke 6:8-10, John 14:4-6) and the Pharisees interpreted that Jesus broke the commandment about keeping the Sabbath holy and not doing any work.

[anatolian]

Salam john.I dont' know but I don't think that muslim might have said that Jesus sinned because of "making Himself being God*" because we muslims don't believe that he did such a thing..

For your question, Quran doen't say that Jesus did sin.But doesn't say that He did not also.

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[FatimaAsSideqah]

Hello to John,

Jesus was sinless

The Bible Says,

He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Corinthians 5:21 (NAS)

The Bible tell us in the above passage and many other passages that Jesus Christ is sinless. He committed no sin, and so he never had to ask for forgiveness of sins. The Bible tells us that 'All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God' (Romans 3:23). All that is except Jesus Christ who is sinless.

The Qur'an confirms that Jesus is sinless?

He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son. Sura Maryam 19:19 (Pickthal)

The Qur'an tells us that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was given a sinless Son. A son who is faultless and perfect in the eyes of God, whose nature is sinless and who did no act of sin. God says He did this so that Jesus, the son of Mary, would be an example to all the nations of the world.

Peace be upon you

Allah Hafiz
Sister Fatima

[جوري]

this post was by br. no name and I thought it was quite effective..

"God" was created from the seed of David: "Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of
the SEED of David according to the flesh." (Romans, 1:3)

The Powerless "God" (Jesus) said: "I can of mine own self do nothing." (John, 5:30)

"God" Was Ignorant of the Time. Jesus said: "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the
angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." (Mark, 13:32)

"God" Was Ignorant of the Season: "And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he (Jesus) was
hungry: and seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find anything thereon: and
when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet." (Mark, 11:12-13)

"God" Learnt Through Experience: "Learned he obedience by the things which he sufered." (Hebrews, 5:8)

Spiritual Development of "God": "And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom." (Luke,
2:40)

Mental, Physical and Moral Development of "God": "And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor
with God and man." (Luke, 2:52)

"God" Was 12 Years Old When His Parents Took Him to Jerusalem: "Now his parents went to Jerusalem
every year at the feast of the passover. And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the
custom of the feast." (Luke, 2:41-42)

"God" Was the Son of Joseph: "Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, we have found him, of whom
Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph" (John, 1:45)

Brothers and Brothers-in-law of "God": "And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their
synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty
works? Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and
Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence hath this man all these things? (Matthew,
13:54-56)

"God" was the fruit of the loins of David: "Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with
an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne."
(Acts, 2:30)

The Ancestors of "God": "The generations of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham." (Matthew,
1:1)

The Gender of "God": "And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was
called Jesus." (Luke, 2:21)

How Mary Conceived and Delivered "God". Mary conceived Jesus like any other woman: "The days were
accomplished that she should be delivered," (Luke, 2:6) which means that she went through all the normal
stages of pregnancy. Nor was her delivery any different from other expectant mothers: "And she being with
child cried, travelling in birth, and pained to be delivered." (Revelation, 12:2)

"God" Suckled The Paps of a Woman: "And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the
company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou
hast sucked." (Luke, 11:27)

The Country of Origin of "God": "Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king.
(Matthew, 2:1)

The Occupation of "God": "Jesus was a carpenter by trade." (Mark, 6:3), "and the son of a carpenter."
(Matthew, 13:55)

The Transport of "God": "Behold, thy king cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass." (Matthew, 21:5)

The Transport of "God": "And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon." (John, 12:14)

The Wining and Dining of "God": "The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, behold a man
gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners." (Matthew, 11:9; Luke, 7:34)

The Poverty of "God": "And Jesus saith unto him, the foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but
the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." (Matthew, 8:20)

The Meagre Possessions of "God": "Shoes of Jesus" (Luke, 3:16), "Garments and coat of Jesus" (John, 19:23)

"God" Was a Devout Jew: "And in the morning, rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed
into a solitary place, and there prayed." (Mark, 1:35)

"God" Was a Loyal Subject and taxpayer: Jesus was a good citizen, he was loyal to Caesar. He said: "Render therefore unto
Caesar

The Devil Tempted "God" For 40 Days: "And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness. And he
was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan." (Mark, 1:12-13)

The Devil Tempted "God" Continuously: "And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from
him for a season." (Luke, 4:13)

Like the Sinners, "God" Was Tempted In All Things: "But (he) was in all points tempted like as we are, yet
without sin." (Hebrews, 4:15)

True God Cannot be Tempted With Evil: "God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."
(James, 1:13)

Only The Ungodly Are Tempted With Evil: "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own
lust, and enticed." (James, 1:14)
Page

The Confession and Repentance of "God": before the beginning of his public ministry: "Jesus was baptized by
John the Baptist" (Matthew, 3:13), "which signified the confession of sins" (Matthew, 3:6), "and repentance
from sins (Matthew, 3:11).

"God" Did Not Come to Save the Sinners: "And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve
asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of
God: but unto them that without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not
perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their
sins should be forgiven them." (Mark, 4:10-12)

THE RACIST "GOD"

"God" Was a Tribal Jew: "The lion of the tribe of Juda." (Revelation, 5:5)

"God" Came For The Jews Only: "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the
house of Israel." (Matthew, 15:24)

Racial Discrimination of "God": "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the
way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the
house of Israel." (Matthew, 10:5-6)

According to "God", The Gentiles Are Dogs: "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs."
(matthew, 15:26)

The Kingdom of "God": And he (Jesus) shall reign over THE HOUSE OF JACOB for ever; and of his
kingdom there shall be no end." (Luke, 1:33)

The Titles of "God": "The king of the Jews" (Matthew, 2:2), "The king of Israel" (John, 1:49; 12:13)

A "GOD" UNLIKE THE GOD

A Hungry "God": "And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungered."
(Matthew 4:2), "Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered." (Matthew, 21:18), "and on the
morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry." (Mark, 11:12)

A Thirsty "God": "(He) saith, I thirst." (John, 19:28)

A Sleepy "God": "He was asleep." (Matthew, 8:24), "He fell asleep" (Luke, 8:23), "And he was in the hinder
part of the ship, asleep on a pillow." (Mark, 4:38)

A Tired "God": Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well." (John, 4:6)

A Groaning "God": "He groaned in the spirit, and was troubled." (John, 11:33), "Jesus therefore again
groaning in himself cometh to the grave." (John, 11:38)

A Weeping "God": "Jesus wept " (John 11:35)

A Sorrowing "God": "And (he) began to be sorrowful and very heavy." (Matthew 26:37). "Then saith he unto
them, my soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death." (Matthew, 26:38)

A Hysterical "God": "And (he) began to be soreamazed and to be very heavy." (Mark, 14:33)

A Weak "God": "And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him." (Luke, 22:43)
THE WARRING "GOD"

The Strong-Arm Method of "God": "And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein,
and them that bought." (Luke, 19:45). "And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
and found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: and
when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen;
and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables." (John, 2:13-15)

The "God" of War: Jesus said: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but
a sword." (Matthew, 10:34)

The Sabre-Rattling "God": Jesus said: "And he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
(Luke, 22:36)

The "GOD" ON THE RUN

"God" Was Panic-Stricken: "After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry,
because the Jews sought to kill him." (John, 7:1)

"God" Walked in Fear of the Jews: "Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to
death. Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews." (John, 11:53-54)

"God" Has Shown a Clean Pair of Heels: "Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their
hand." (John, 10:39)

"God" Fled in Disguise: "Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the
temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by." (John, 8:59)

THE CAPTURE OF "GOD"

A Friend Betrayed the Secret Hiding Place of "God": "And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place:
for Jesus off-times resorted thither with his disciples. Judas then, having received a band of man and officers
from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons." (John, 18:2-3)
"God" Was Arrested, Bound and Led Away: "Then the band and the captain and officers of the Jews took
Jesus, and bound him, and led him away." (John, 18:12-13)

"God" Was Humiliated: "And the men that held Jesus mocked him, and smote him. And when they had
blindfolded him, they struck him on the face." (Luke, 22:63-64). "Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted
him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands." (Matthew, 26:67)

"God" Was Defenseless: "One of the officers which stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand", he said:
"Why smitest thou me?" (John, 18:22-23)

"God" Was Condemned to Death: "And they all condemned him to be guilty of death." (Mark, 14:64). "They
answered and said, he is guilty of death." (Matthew, 26:66)
The Dumb and Docile "God": "He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his
shearer, so opened he not his mouth." (Acts, 8:32)

THE END OF "GOD"

The Dying "God": "And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost." (Mark, 15:37)
The "God" That Was Supposed Dead and Defunct: "Christ died." (Romans, 5:6). "He was dead". (John,
19:33)

The Corpse of "God": "he (Joseph of Arimathaea) went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.
Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered." (Matthew, 27:58)

The Shroud of "God": "And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth." (Matthew,
27:59)

The Orbituary of The Late And Lamented "God": "Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified
God, saying, certainly this was a righteous man." (Luke, 23:47)

EPILOGUE

This post is for the sake of Muslim kids on this site who are in danger of being misled by clever threads

According to these self-appointed apostles of Christ, Jesus is God because: (i) "HE SHARED THE NATURE
OF GOD", and (ii) because "IN EVERY WAY HE IS LIKE GOD". But according to the quotations of the
Bible given above, we find that Jesus did neither SHARE THE NATURE OF GOD nor is he IN EVERY
WAY LIKE GOD. He is, therefore, definitely NOT God! The onus to prove that Jesus is God now rests with
these Christians. Either they must prove that Jesus is God, or they must admit that they are polytheists, (believers in
more than one God).

DESPITE ALL THEIR TRICKERY, THEY WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO PROVE THAT JESUS IS GOD!!

These preachers in Christ, will never succeed in convincing the Muslims that Jesus was anything
other than a natural man and a Prophet of God, sent unto the house of Israel to bear the good news of the
coming of the KINGDOM OF GOD!


.

[john316]

Hello to John,

Jesus was sinless

The Bible Says,

He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Corinthians 5:21 (NAS)

The Bible tell us in the above passage and many other passages that Jesus Christ is sinless. He committed no sin, and so he never had to ask for forgiveness of sins. The Bible tells us that 'All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God' (Romans 3:23). All that is except Jesus Christ who is sinless.

The Qur'an confirms that Jesus is sinless?

He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son. Sura Maryam 19:19 (Pickthal)

The Qur'an tells us that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was given a sinless Son. A son who is faultless and perfect in the eyes of God, whose nature is sinless and who did no act of sin. God says He did this so that Jesus, the son of Mary, would be an example to all the nations of the world.

Peace be upon you

Allah Hafiz
Sister Fatima

Alright I'll answer you first and then PurestAmbrosa in the nicest way possible. You affirm that Jesus is sinless. Now here's a sticker. Dr. Zakir Naik on his website IRF.net uses a reference from the Bible to disprove Jesus' divinity.

Jesus Refuted even the Remotest Suggestion of his Divinity

Consider the following incident mentioned in the Bible:

"And behold, one came and said unto him, ‘Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?’

And he said unto him, ‘Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.’ "
[The Bible, Mathew 19:16-17]

Jesus (pbuh) did not say that to have the eternal life of paradise, man should believe in him as Almighty God or worship him as God, or believe that Jesus (pbuh) would die for his sins. On the contrary he said that the path to salvation was through keeping the commandments. It is indeed striking to note the difference between the words of Jesus Christ (pbuh) and the Christian dogma of salvation through the sacrifice of Jesus (pbuh).

taken from
http://www.irf.net/irf/comparativereligion/index.htm

The rest of his arguments go totally against what Christians actually believe. Really biased. Sorry to say.

Question for you Sister Fatima

IS JESUS GOOD? YES OR NO

[FatimaAsSideqah]

^ Yes Jesus is good Prophet of Allah. He did duties very perfect to His Lord.

Here and in many other passages we see that Jesus Christ is Peace. He has peace and He is ready to give it to everyone who asks for it. The Qur'an mentions this Peace,

Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive! Sura Maryam 19:33 (Pickhal)

Here the Muslim's Holy Qur'an confirms what the Bible tells us, namely, that Jesus Christ does not ask for peace. He says that he was born with Peace. Therefore, He does not ask us to pray for peace on Him. No, on the contrary, He says he has peace. As we all know, only Allah Almighty has Peace.

Peace be upon you

Sister Fatima

[john316]

^ Yes Jesus is good Prophet of Allah. He did duties very perfect to His Lord.

Here and in many other passages we see that Jesus Christ is Peace. He has peace and He is ready to give it to everyone who asks for it. The Qur'an mentions this Peace,

Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive! Sura Maryam 19:33 (Pickhal)

Here the Muslim's Holy Qur'an confirms what the Bible tells us, namely, that Jesus Christ does not ask for peace. He says that he was born with Peace. Therefore, He does not ask us to pray for peace on Him. No, on the contrary, He says he has peace. As we all know, only Allah Almighty has Peace.

Peace be upon you

Sister Fatima

You said yes so if Jesus is good that makes him God.(Mathew 19:16-17)

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

You said yes so if Jesus is good that makes him God.(Mathew 19:16-17)

Your arguments are based more on desperation, than on anything solid.

[FatimaAsSideqah]

To John.

I think you are confused.

I did stated at this quote again to make clear.

^ Yes Jesus is good Prophet of Allah. He did duties very perfect to His Lord.

I said Jesus is good person, not God. He is only Prophet of Allah.

Hope you will understand, Allah Knows.

Peace be upon you.

Sister Fatima

[anatolian]

The Qur'an confirms that Jesus is sinless?

He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son. Sura Maryam 19:19 (Pickthal)

The Qur'an tells us that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was given a sinless Son. A son who is faultless and perfect in the eyes of God, whose nature is sinless and who did no act of sin. God says He did this so that Jesus, the son of Mary, would be an example to all the nations of the world.

Peace be upon you

Allah Hafiz
Sister Fatima

Salam sis.Some other english translations say "pure"in the place of "faultless" and my turkish translation says "clean".I don't understand the original Quran in arabic...So you say that Maryam:19 means that Isa aleyhissalam was sinless/didn't commit sin ever?

[FatimaAsSideqah]

As Salaam Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

Salam sis.Some other english translations say "pure"in the place of "faultless" and my turkish translation says "clean".I don't understand the original Quran in arabic...So you say that Maryam:19 means that Isa aleyhissalam was sinless/didn't commit sin ever?

Prophets of Allah, according to the Muslim faith, are people selected by Allah Himself to deliver His message to mankind. The Muslim belief that Prophets are sinless primarily relates to the fact that the Prophets of God delivered His message in its purest form. They did not add anything to it, on their own, and neither did they hold anything back from it. The Qur'an says that because Muhammad (pbuh) is a true Prophet of Allah, therefore, if this true Prophet falsely ascribes something to Allah, he shall then be punished like no other individual. The Qur'an says:

Had he invented lies concerning Us, We would have seized him by the right hand and severed his heart's vein; and no one from amongst you could have protected him (from Us). (Al-Haaqqah 69: 44 - 47)

The Qur'an also tells us that to supervise the unadulterated deliverance of the message, the prophets are closely observed by Allah. It says:

As for the Messengers whom He has chosen, He guards them from the front and from behind to make sure that they have delivered the messages of their Lord. (Al-Jinn 72: 27 - 28)

Besides this, Muslims also believe that because Allah Himself, on the basis of His all encompassing knowledge, selected these prophets for delivering His message and to become a model for their followers, therefore these Prophets must have been the best of mankind living in their particular times and societies. But this does not mean that the Prophets do not commit any mistakes. Mistake, as we know is not synonymous with sin. These Prophets may commit mistakes, which are corrected by Allah, but these mistakes are not sins. Even these mistakes are in the way of righteousness.

enough said on the matter..these are Prophets may peace be upon them all. I hope this clears up your questions/concerns.

Sister Fatima

[anatolian]

wa Aleykum Salam.No unfortunately it hasn't cleared up my question.I know that there isa beliefe within muslims that all Prophets were sinless but I am doubtful if this is a Quranic belief.My question is that does Quran 19:19 proves that Isa aleyhissalam didn't sin(not mistake)?

[FatimaAsSideqah]

wa Aleykum Salam.No unfortunately it hasn't cleared up my question.I know that there isa beliefe within muslims that all Prophets were sinless but I am doubtful if this is a Quranic belief.My question is that does Quran 19:19 proves that Isa aleyhissalam didn't sin(not mistake)?

I did went to read on the Holy Quran to check if there correct translation. I will give you the correct was that.

(The Angel) said: "I am only a Messenger from your Lord, (to announce) to you the gift of righteous son." Maryam 19:19

[MustafaMc]

My question is that does Quran 19:19 proves that Isa aleyhissalam didn't sin(not mistake)?

The translation that I like to read uses "pure son" in referring to Jesus (as) in 19:19 and uses "purity" in referring to John (Yahya) (as). Pure and purity indicate sinless.

Yet, according to the Bible, Jesus (as) broke the "Sabbath" by healing and he excused his disciples for gathering grain on the Sabbath. Not keeping the Sabbath holy is a transgression of the Judaic Law.

John316 do you care to comment?

[*Hana*]

You said yes so if Jesus is good that makes him God.(Mathew 19:16-17)

No righteous or pious MAN would EVER claim to be good on the same level as God. So, contrary to what you want this verse to suggest, it is actually DENYING divinity, NOT accepting it. Jesus, pbuh, being a chosen Prophet of God, knew this very well and would NEVER make that mistake!

Hana

[MustafaMc]

So, contrary to what you want this verse to suggest, it is actually DENYING divinity, NOT accepting it. Jesus, pbuh, being a chosen Prophet of God, knew this very well and would NEVER make that mistake!

Yes, this is exactly how I interpret the verse in Matthew as well. The corresponding passage in Mark10:17-18 is more lucid. As he was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to him and knelt before him, and asked him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone." Notice that Jesus (as) refers to another in the third person as being the only one that is truly good - and that One is God - Allah (swt).

[Malaikah]

My question is that does Quran 19:19 proves that Isa aleyhissalam didn't sin(not mistake)?

:sl:

No, it doesn't.

The Islamic position is that every human sins, including the Prophets, but that the Prophets hardly sin at all, and they are small sins, and they seek repentance for their sins and that Allah forgives all their sins.

Examples of Prophets sinning include Adam eating from the tree, even though he was prohibited and Yunus giving up on the people he was meant to guide. But the point is they repented and were forgiven, and that they are still better humans than anyone else.

[john316]

The translation that I like to read uses "pure son" in referring to Jesus (as) in 19:19 and uses "purity" in referring to John (Yahya) (as). Pure and purity indicate sinless.

Yet, according to the Bible, Jesus (as) broke the "Sabbath" by healing and he excused his disciples for gathering grain on the Sabbath. Not keeping the Sabbath holy is a transgression of the Judaic Law.

John316 do you care to comment?

You have to consider the whole context friend. Jesus also said it was lawful to do good on the Sabbath. And the Sabbath day is a day devoted to the Lord. And if you are doing something good like healing for GOD then you are glorifying him on the Sabbath. What was the Sabbath. It was not merely a religous ordinance. But God designed us in such a way that 6 days we work. 1 day we rest so that our body is rejuvented for the next 6 days. Man was not made for the Sabbath but Sabbath for man. The Jewish Pharissees of those days were hypocrites and made their own technicalities thinking that they were doing God good. And by finding fault in His Son their were only hardening their hearts. They were out to please men and be good in the eyes of men not God.

[john316]

No righteous or pious MAN would EVER claim to be good on the same level as God. So, contrary to what you want this verse to suggest, it is actually DENYING divinity, NOT accepting it. Jesus, pbuh, being a chosen Prophet of God, knew this very well and would NEVER make that mistake!

Hana

there's a difference between being righteous and unrighteous. You can't be both. You cant walk in light and darkness and the same time. You can't go left and right at the same time. Every human since Adam and Eve sinned. So none were righteuos. Jesus, the Son of God, who became the Son of Man, never sinned as a human. As a human He was tempted. Being tempted is not a sin. What happens against your will is not a sin. He had a choice to sin or not to sin. which eventually He didnt. He was obedient unto His physical death. The wages if sin is death(seperation from God for eternity). But Jesus endured GOD'S HOLY WRATH and never sinned. Had he sinned even once he would have been seperated from God. He paid it all, for believers and non-believer. The only sin that God cannot forgive is unwillingness to accept forgiveness. But prior to that you need to repent.

[john316]

:sl:

No, it doesn't.

The Islamic position is that every human sins, including the Prophets, but that the Prophets hardly sin at all, and they are small sins, and they seek repentance for their sins and that Allah forgives all their sins.

Examples of Prophets sinning include Adam eating from the tree, even though he was prohibited and Yunus giving up on the people he was meant to guide. But the point is they repented and were forgiven, and that they are still better humans than anyone else.

I dont know how to say this. But Adam's sin brought sin and suffering to the entire humna race. So his sin was too big to be forgiven. 40 days repentance was just not going to be enough. Yes when you are forgiven of all past sins you are sinless. But God's forgiveness also depends on the degree of sin and the equal degree of atonement for that sin.

[Malaikah]

Hi,

The consequences of his sin was not his fault.

God pre-decreed that mankind would be tested on this Earth well before he even created us, it is not Adam's fault that we are n this Earth now, it is what God intended.

[john316]

had Adam not sinned or nor any of mankind sin by eating from the tree would there be sin, suffering & death like we see today

[Malaikah]

God created mankind with the intention of putting them on earth.

In the Quran Allah said (keep in mind this happened before Adam was alive):

And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Verily, I am going to place (mankind) generations after generations on earth." They said: "Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood, - while we glorify You with praises and thanks (Exalted be You above all that they associate with You as partners) and sanctify You." He (Allâh) said: "I know that which you do not know."

Chapter 2, verse 30.

That makes it clear hat well before Adam sin, Allah already had the intention of sending Adam and therefore mankind to Earth.

[sur]

In Islam, we believe that all of the prophets and messengers of Allah were sinless.

No human is sinless, including Prophets.


Q:7:23:They said: Our Lord! We(Adam & Eve) have wronged ourselves......

Q:26:82:And Who, I ardently hope, will forgive me my(Ibraheem) sin on the Day of Judgment.

Q:38:25:So We forgave him(Dawood) that; and lo! he had access to Our presence and a happy journey's end.

Q:28:16:He said: My Lord! Lo! I(Mosa) have wronged my soul, so forgive me. Then He forgave him.

Q:47:19:So know (O Muhammad) that there is no God save Allah, and ask forgiveness for thy sin and for believing men and believing women.

[Q:48:2] That God may forgive thee thy faults of the past and those to follow; fulfil His favour to thee; and guide thee on the Straight Way;





It's ONLY that Prophat Muhammad(saw) was forgiven his faults in this world while other Prophets & other humans will have to wait for DOJ(Day of Judjement) for decision on them.

Bukhari:2:19:-
Narated By 'Aisha : Whenever Allah's Apostle ordered the Muslims to do something, he used to order them deeds which were easy for them to do, (according to their strength endurance). They said, "O Allah's Apostle! We are not like you. Allah has forgiven your past and future sins." So Allah's Apostle became angry and it was apparent on his face. He said, "I am the most Allah fearing, and know Allah better than all of you do."

Bukhari:55:577:-
Narated By Abu Huraira : Allah's Apostle said, "Abraham did not tell a lie except on three occasions."

Bukhari:60:3:-
Narated By Anas : The Prophet said, "On the Day of Resurrection the Believers will assemble and say, 'Let us ask somebody to intercede for us with our Lord.' So they will go to Adam and say, 'You are the father of all the people, and Allah created you with His Own Hands, and ordered the angels to prostrate to you, and taught you the names of all things; so please intercede for us with your Lord, so that He may relieve us from this place of ours.' Adam will say, 'I am not fit for this (i.e. intercession for you).' Then Adam will remember his sin and feel ashamed thereof. He will say, 'Go to Noah, for he was the first Apostle, Allah sent to the inhabitants of the earth.' They will go to him and Noah will say:

'I am not fit for this undertaking.' He will remember his appeal to his Lord to do what he had no knowledge of, then he will feel ashamed thereof and will say, 'Go to the Khalil-r-Rahman (i.e. Abraham).' They will go to him and he will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking. Go to Moses, the slave to whom Allah spoke (directly) and gave him the Torah.' So they will go to him and he will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking.' and he will mention (his) killing a person who was not a killer, and so he will feel ashamed thereof before his Lord, and he will say, 'Go to Jesus, Allah's Slave, His Apostle and Allah's Word and a Spirit coming from Him. Jesus will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking, go to Muhammad the Slave of Allah whose past and future sins were forgiven by Allah.' So they will come to me and I will proceed till I will ask my Lord's Permission and I will be given permission. When I see my Lord, I will fall down in Prostration and He will let me remain in that state as long as He wishes and then I will be addressed.' (Muhammad!) Raise your head. Ask, and your request will be granted; say, and your saying will be listened to; intercede, and your intercession will be accepted.' I will raise my head and praise Allah with a saying (i.e. invocation) He will teach me, and then I will intercede. He will fix a limit for me (to intercede for) whom I will admit into Paradise. Then I will come back again to Allah, and when I see my Lord, the same thing will happen to me. And then I will intercede and Allah will fix a limit for me to intercede whom I will let into Paradise, then I will come back for the third time; and then I will come back for the fourth time, and will say, 'None remains in Hell but those whom the Qur'an has imprisoned (in Hell) and who have been destined to an eternal stay in Hell.' " (The compiler) Abu 'Abdullah said: 'But those whom the Qur'an has imprisoned in Hell,' refers to the Statement of Allah: "They will dwell therein forever." (16.29)

[MustafaMc]

That makes it clear that well before Adam sin, Allah already had the intention of sending Adam and therefore mankind to Earth.

Yes, that is correct. Sahih Bukhari narrated by Abu Huraira The Prophet said, "Moses argued with Adam and said to him (Adam), 'You are the one who got the people out of Paradise by your sin, and thus made them miserable." Adam replied, 'O Moses! You are the one whom Allah selected for His Message and for His direct talk. Yet you blame me for a thing which Allah had ordained for me before He created me?' " Allah's Apostle further said, "So Adam overcame Moses by this argument."

[MustafaMc]

No human is sinless, including Prophets.

Thank you for correcting my error - I stand corrected.

[john316]

First I'll disagree by saying that Jesus was the only man on Earth that did not sin. Second of all I need to ask that just because we Christians believe that we are saved by faith and faith alone do you Muslims believe that our plan of salvation is an easy way out?

[جوري]

I think your 'plan of salvation' is unrealistic and defies logic--It is based on fanciful desire than sound judgement..

but you are entitled to your beliefs!

peace

[anatolian]

I remember a hadith-don't know where it is- which states that every human except Isa and Maryam aleyhissalam sinned...What do you think about this?

[Malaikah]

:sl:

I think it wuld be nice if we cuold get a reference for that- I've never heard it before and I'm certain that, from what I learned, every human sins, without exception. It seems strange that Isa and Maryam would not sin when Muhammad pbuh, the best human to ever live himself sinned on some occasions.

[*Hana*]

had Adam not sinned or nor any of mankind sin by eating from the tree would there be sin, suffering & death like we see today

Ali Ataie says it best. Here is a portion of his writing:

A Parable…

A thief breaks into my house. He rushes in and takes a handful of my wife's finest jewelry and bolts out the door. Before he makes it down the street he is spotted by a cop and taken into custody. In court, he looks me in the eye and tells me that he is sorry. He was stealing so that he could feed his family currently living in a homeless shelter. I no longer decide to press charges and resolve that I will forgive him. With much sorrow, the thief vows that he will work for me to make up his sin.

"Just don't do it again," I say.

The thief realizes his wrong and walks away. Suddenly, I pull my only begotten son whom I love out of the crowd and slice his throat ear to ear. The thief turns back and is horrfied by the spectacle.

"Why!?" he says.

I respond by saying, "Because of your sins."

DOES THIS MAKE ANY SENSE??? WAS THIS MURDER NECESSARY???


A Second Parable…

My great grandfather killed a man many years ago without just cause. He was sent to prison for many years. After about 50 years of hard time he was released and the family of the deceased became grateful that he paid his debt to them. He spent the rest of his life in a tropical Paradise. A couple years later he got married and had a son. As soon as his son was born, the baby was rushed to the same prison where his father served for 50 years. When my great grandfather asked why, he was told, "Because of your original crime of murder. And from now on, every one of your descendants will come first to this prison to live."

Is this justice??

A Final Parable…

My dog Max was barking all night long. My neighbor, frustrated beyond belief, storms out of his house and throws a brick at Max to scare him; maybe that would shut him up. Unfortunately, the brick finds its mark and Max is struck dead. The next morning I discover Max's corpse outside my front door.

Then I spot my neighbor coming towards me with tears in his eyes saying, “I am SO sorry. I got really angry last night and killed your dog. I don't know what came over me…I had a really bad day at work and….”

I interrupt him, “Hey bro, don't worry about it. I understand. I FORGIVE YOU.”

My neighbor suggests, “I will kill my dog as well, so justice can be served. It would be the right thing to do.”

I tell him, “Because you sinned against ME, and I have forgiven you, killing your dog would be a great INJUSTICE. Why would you kill an innocent dog for the sin of another?”

John3:16: If this is your idea of justice...you can keep it. Allah, swt, is NEVER unjust even in the slightest manner!!

Alhamdulillah, I was guided to the truth, beauty and justice of Islam.

Hana

[AvarAllahNoor]

Only people I hear stating Jesus was 'God' are the misguided Christians, who've concoted this whole trinity nonsense up to set up Churches for financial gains.

[AvarAllahNoor]

had Adam not sinned or nor any of mankind sin by eating from the tree would there be sin, suffering & death like we see today

Does that mean nobody would have died and remained immortal...?

I don't recall eating from this so-called tree...:uuh:

[Heera Singh]

yeh i find this whole 'adam n eve' story to be rubbish.. jus a fairy tale..

[MustafaMc]

:sl:

I think it wuld be nice if we cuold get a reference for that- I've never heard it before and I'm certain that, from what I learned, every human sins, without exception. It seems strange that Isa and Maryam would not sin when Muhammad pbuh, the best human to ever live himself sinned on some occasions.

There is a hadith that mentions the different prophets during the search for a mediator to intercede on the Day of Resurrection. The sins of each are mentioned except none is mentioned for Jesus (as). Those of Muhammad (saaws) are mentioned in a general sense. I have copied the entire hadith from Alim software. I did not find anything regarding Mary.

Sahih A-Bukhari 6:236 Narrated Abu Huraira Some (cooked) meat was brought to Allah Apostle and the meat of a forearm was presented to him as he used to like it. He ate a morsel of it and said, "I will be the chief of all the people on the Day of Resurrection. Do you know the reason for it? Allah will gather all the human beings of early generations as well as late generations on one plain so that the announcer will be able to make them all hear his voice and the watcher will be able to see all of them. The sun will come so close to the people that they will suffer such distress and trouble as they will not be able to bear or stand. Then the people will say, 'Don't you see to what state you have reached? Won't you look for someone who can intercede for you with your Lord?'

Some people will say to some others, 'Go to Adam.' So they will go to Adam and say to him, 'You are the father of mankind; Allah created you with His Own Hand, and breathed into you of His Spirit (meaning the spirit which he created for you); and ordered the angels to prostrate before you; so (please) intercede for us with your Lord. Don't you see in what state we are? Don't you see what condition we have reached?' Adam will say, 'Today my Lord has become angry as He has never become before, nor will ever become thereafter. He forbade me (to eat of the fruit of) the tree, but I disobeyed Him. Myself! Myself! Myself! (has more need for intercession). Go to someone else; go to Noah.' So they will go to Noah and say (to him), 'O Noah! You are the first (of Allah's Messengers) to the people of the earth, and Allah has named you a thankful slave; please intercede for us with your Lord. Don't you see in what state we are?' He will say, 'Today my Lord has become angry as He has never become nor will ever become thereafter. I had (in the world) the right to make one definitely accepted invocation, and I made it against my nation. Myself! Myself! Myself! Go to someone else; go to Abraham.' They will go to Abraham and say, 'O Abraham! You are Allah's Apostle and His Khalil from among the people of the earth; so please intercede for us with your Lord. Don't you see in what state we are?' He will say to them, 'My Lord has today become angry as He has never become before, nor will ever become thereafter. I had told three lies (Abu Haiyan (the sub-narrator) mentioned them in the Hadith. Myself! Myself! Myself! Go to someone else; go to Moses.' The people will then go to Moses and say, 'O Moses! You art Allah's Apostle and Allah gave you superiority above the others with this message and with His direct Talk to you; (please) intercede for us with your Lord! Don't you see in what state we are?' Moses will say, 'My Lord has today become angry as He has never become before, nor will become thereafter, I killed a person whom I had not been ordered to kill. Myself! Myself! Myself! Go to someone else; go to Jesus.' So they will go to Jesus and say, 'O Jesus! You are Allah's Apostle and His Word which He sent to Mary, and a superior soul created by Him, and you talked to the people while still young in the cradle. Please intercede for us with your Lord. Don't you see in what state we are?' Jesus will say, 'My Lord has today become angry as He has never become before nor will ever become thereafter. Jesus will not mention any sin, but will say, 'Myself! Myself! Myself! Go to someone else; go to Muhammad.' So they will come to me and say, 'O Muhammad ! You are Allah's Apostle and the last of the prophets, and Allah forgave your early and late sins. (Please) intercede for us with your Lord. Don't you see in what state we are?' " The Prophet added, "Then I will go beneath Allah's Throne and fall in prostration before my Lord. And then Allah will guide me to such praises and glorification to Him as He has never guided anybody else before me. Then it will be said, 'O Muhammad! Raise your head. Ask, and it will be granted. Intercede! It (your intercession) will be accepted.' So I will raise my head and say, 'My followers, O my Lord! My followers, O my Lord'. It will be said, 'O Muhammad! Let those of your followers who have no accounts, enter through such a gate of the gates of Paradise as lies on the right; and they will share the other gates with the people.' " The Prophet further said, "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is, the distance between every two gate-posts of Paradise is like the distance between Mecca and Busra (in Sham)."

Although no sin is mentioned for Prophet Jesus (as), I venture a guess that he denied the role of intercessor due to the claims that Christians make about him being the Son of Allah and that the Christians worshipped him instead of Allah.

Quran 5:116-118 After reminding him of these favors, Allah will say: "O Isa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Marry), Did you ever say to the people, "worship me and my mother as gods beside Allah?" He will answer: "Glory to You! How could I say what I had no right to say? If I had ever said so, you would have certainly known it. You know what is in my heart, but I know not what is in Yours; for You have full knowledge of all the unseen. I never said anything other than what You commanded me to say, that is to worship Allah, Who is my Rabb and your Rabb. I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them; but when You called me off, You were the Watcher over them and You are a Witness to everything. If You punish them, they surely are Your servants; and if You forgive them, You are Mighty, Wise."

[john316]

first off all i dont believe in evolution. i am a young earth creationist. and there is some science that can prove young earth creationism.

Now to Hana, we believe in repentance and reconciling to those we have hurt. But we must also understand that all sinned against God. and God reconciled to us through the death of Christ. there other sins like masturbation, covet, etc. which are offensive to God. not just offending your neighbour. Just as God in Christ forgave us we are to forgive one another but that doesnt promote tolerance.

When people accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior they start a new relationship with God in Christ by the Power of His Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit empowers them to lead godly lives. They dont want to sin. They live their lives for God and neighbour first. It's a relationship that makes them feel bad everytime they do sin. They will be renewed to godly sorrow which works repentance unto salvation.

[MustafaMc]

... there other sins like masturbation, covet, etc. which are offensive to God. not just offending your neighbour...

What chapter and verse do you refer to regarding masturbation? I don't recall ever reading in the Bible or the Quran that is a sin. What about gambling? All the the pious Christians I know hold that this is also a sin, but I don't remember reading in the Bible that it is. Please, advise.

[AvarAllahNoor]

What chapter and verse do you refer to regarding masturbation? I don't recall ever reading in the Bible or the Quran that is a sin. What about gambling? All the the pious Christians I know hold that this is also a sin, but I don't remember reading in the Bible that it is. Please, advise.

I would imagine it's sinful because it causes lustful thoughts. Is in Sikhism.

[Malaikah]

yeh i find this whole 'adam n eve' story to be rubbish.. jus a fairy tale..

I don't see the wisdom in announcing Islamic beliefs to be rubbish in the middle of an Islamic forum. Pretty offensive, really.

[john316]

What chapter and verse do you refer to regarding masturbation? I don't recall ever reading in the Bible or the Quran that is a sin. What about gambling? All the the pious Christians I know hold that this is also a sin, but I don't remember reading in the Bible that it is. Please, advise.

Leviticus 15 talks about discharges that cause uncleaness. Paul writes in Galatians 5 that those who practice uncleaness will not inherit the kingdom of God. Jude 4 talks abt men turnig the grace of God into laciviousness. Fantasising sexually is also a sin. I can give you a lot more. Illicit sex is sin.

[Heera Singh]

sorry if i was offensive... i didn't intend to be... jus tryin to air my 'disbeleif' of the story... perhaps i shud've used other means.. my apologies..

to explain... I don't understand how the story could even make sense... personally i think the story was a 'metaphor' so to speak... the forbidden fruit could have been 'adultery' on their part... (intercourse, but not being married).. and this notion that eve came from adams ribs?? that doesn't make sense.. because we all kno that man comes from woman, not the other way around... the story in the bible makes the earth about 10,000 years old.. and we KNOW the earth is a LOT older then that...

[sur]

I remember a hadith-don't know where it is- which states that every human except Isa and Maryam aleyhissalam sinned...What do you think about this?

I think that's the Hadees which says that Shaytaan touches every human BUT he couldn't touch Eesa & Maryam.!!!!

Bukhari:55:641:-
Narated By Said bin Al-Musaiyab : Abu Huraira said, "I heard Allah's Apostle saying, 'There is none born among the off-spring of Adam, but Satan touches it. A child therefore, cries loudly at the time of birth because of the touch of Satan, except Mary and her child." Then Abu Huraira recited: "And I seek refuge with You for her and for her offspring from the outcast Satan" (3.36)

& hadees in MustataMC's this post is important.

[john316]

sorry if i was offensive... i didn't intend to be... jus tryin to air my 'disbeleif' of the story... perhaps i shud've used other means.. my apologies..

to explain... I don't understand how the story could even make sense... personally i think the story was a 'metaphor' so to speak... the forbidden fruit could have been 'adultery' on their part... (intercourse, but not being married).. and this notion that eve came from adams ribs?? that doesn't make sense.. because we all kno that man comes from woman, not the other way around... the story in the bible makes the earth about 10,000 years old.. and we KNOW the earth is a LOT older then that...

disagree atleast i dont get offended by your beliefs. Jesus did say that from the begining God made us male and female. So if Jesus is true evolution is not true. There is evidence that King David ruled Israel 3000 years ago. and in the lineage between Adam and David there is no contradiction. So it is impossible for David to have descended from a myth.

[Heera Singh]

see, that bein said.. there's no way to PROVE Jesus said anything... jus because i's in the bible, doesn't make it so...

u see where i'm comin from right?

what evidence is between king david and adam? can u please provide sources?

[MustafaMc]

Leviticus 15 talks about discharges that cause uncleaness. Paul writes in Galatians 5 that those who practice uncleaness will not inherit the kingdom of God. Jude 4 talks abt men turnig the grace of God into laciviousness. Fantasising sexually is also a sin. I can give you a lot more. Illicit sex is sin.

What about gambling and drinking alcohol? Are they sins according to your religion?

[MustafaMc]

disagree atleast i dont get offended by your beliefs. Jesus did say that from the begining God made us male and female. So if Jesus is true evolution is not true. There is evidence that King David ruled Israel 3000 years ago. and in the lineage between Adam and David there is no contradiction. So it is impossible for David to have descended from a myth.

Oh yeah, according to the Bible, God had at least one more son in addition to Jesus :hmm:Luke 3:37 ...the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

[*Hana*]

first off all i dont believe in evolution. i am a young earth creationist. and there is some science that can prove young earth creationism.

Now to Hana, we believe in repentance and reconciling to those we have hurt. But we must also understand that all sinned against God. and God reconciled to us through the death of Christ. there other sins like masturbation, covet, etc. which are offensive to God. not just offending your neighbour. Just as God in Christ forgave us we are to forgive one another but that doesnt promote tolerance.

When people accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior they start a new relationship with God in Christ by the Power of His Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit empowers them to lead godly lives. They dont want to sin. They live their lives for God and neighbour first. It's a relationship that makes them feel bad everytime they do sin. They will be renewed to godly sorrow which works repentance unto salvation.

yeah, ummm, blah, blah, blah. You still haven't responded to say WHY. God is the creator of man, He gave us the ability to sin or not to sin. Now you say He was soooo surprised, and was clueless to the fact His creations would sin, that the ONLY way to forgive His creations is to create a "son", make Him sinless, then make Him the MOST sinful person in history by placing the entire sins of the world on His shoulders, then torture Him and murder Him to make things right. The creator doesn't know anything about His creations!? :hmm:

Have you ever actually sat down and listened to what you're saying??? Your entire salvation is based on this?? Where is the logic?? Don't give me lip service, give me logic. Tell me WHY you believe God, the creator of ALL things couldn't figure out a just way to forgive without the slaughter of a sinless man.

God is not the author of confusion. He would not make your salvation something impossible to obtain nor impossible to understand and for 100% sure he would NOT be unfair in the slightest way.

Anyway, God gave us the ability to reason, take advantage of that gift.

And please don't respond with a bunch of verses. I want to hear YOU explain it with your own words.

Hana

[Malaikah]

sorry if i was offensive... i didn't intend to be... jus tryin to air my 'disbeleif' of the story... perhaps i shud've used other means.. my apologies..

That's okay. :)

personally i think the story was a 'metaphor' so to speak...

Some Christains believe that, but in Islam we don'tl

the forbidden fruit could have been 'adultery' on their part... (intercourse, but not being married)..

But they were married, so it can't be!

and this notion that eve came from adams ribs?? that doesn't make sense.. because we all kno that man comes from woman, not the other way around...

Why? Isn't God, who created us from nothing, able to create a women from the rib of a man? Og course He can.

And as far as I know, genetically speaking, it makes more sense to make a women from a man, because the man has an X gene, and women have two X's. But men must have a Y gene to be men, and women do not have the Y gene, so then the genetic make up of the rib of a women can't produce a man.

Not that it matters anyway. If God willed He could have made a Y in there somehow...

the story in the bible makes the earth about 10,000 years old.. and we KNOW the earth is a LOT older then that...

This age is a biblical idea, not an Islamic one.

[john316]

yeah, ummm, blah, blah, blah. You still haven't responded to say WHY. God is the creator of man, He gave us the ability to sin or not to sin. Now you say He was soooo surprised, and was clueless to the fact His creations would sin, that the ONLY way to forgive His creations is to create a "son", make Him sinless, then make Him the MOST sinful person in history by placing the entire sins of the world on His shoulders, then torture Him and murder Him to make things right. The creator doesn't know anything about His creations!? :hmm:

Have you ever actually sat down and listened to what you're saying??? Your entire salvation is based on this?? Where is the logic?? Don't give me lip service, give me logic. Tell me WHY you believe God, the creator of ALL things couldn't figure out a just way to forgive without the slaughter of a sinless man.

God is not the author of confusion. He would not make your salvation something impossible to obtain nor impossible to understand and for 100% sure he would NOT be unfair in the slightest way.

Anyway, God gave us the ability to reason, take advantage of that gift.

And please don't respond with a bunch of verses. I want to hear YOU explain it with your own words.

Hana

the way you post is as if to say that you are 100% right and I am 100% wrong. First of all you tell me to think logically when there are something which you seem to have no clue of. For example you say that Jesus the Son of God was created. when Jesus was never really created. He was with God from the beginning.(John 1:1). The term begotten emphasizes the relationship between God and Jesus is as precious a Father has with his Only begotten Son. God and Jesus existed before creation..beforethe physical realm was even created. Jesus and God are one. One Lord one God.

Secondly God crreated everything good and evil. He just gives you a choice or the free will to obey or disobey. Those who love Him and obey Him spend an eternity with Him. Those who dont spend an eternity in His everlasting wrath. Jesus preached one message. Repentance because all sinned.

[Heera Singh]

(i'll quote just one point of ur post since I have to go, i'll reply to the rest tomorrow)

This age is a biblical idea, not an Islamic one.

But here's where the real question lies. If you believe the Bible to be the word of God, then you have to believe all of it, otherwise if there's some fault in it, then it cannot be considered the Word of God, as God is Perfect, and so shud be his WORD. I don't think it makes sense to only believe certain parts which agree with your own beliefs.

[*Hana*]

the way you post is as if to say that you are 100% right and I am 100% wrong. First of all you tell me to think logically when there are something which you seem to have no clue of. For example you say that Jesus the Son of God was created. when Jesus was never really created. He was with God from the beginning.(John 1:1). The term begotten emphasizes the relationship between God and Jesus is as precious a Father has with his Only begotten Son. God and Jesus existed before creation..beforethe physical realm was even created. Jesus and God are one. One Lord one God.

Secondly God crreated everything good and evil. He just gives you a choice or the free will to obey or disobey. Those who love Him and obey Him spend an eternity with Him. Those who dont spend an eternity in His everlasting wrath. Jesus preached one message. Repentance because all sinned.

...and still, you cannot respond. Why do you find it so hard to say, "I believe it, but I can't explain it." Because that is EXACTLY the way it is.

I have no clue? Let me see who else was with God from the beginning?? Hmmm, now who could that be. ^o) Oh yessss, that's right Jeremiah! And, ummm, who was that other guy, hmmmmm, let me think, you know the guy with no beginning and no end, without mother and father...noooo, not God, not Jesus, but Melchizedek!!!! By your explanation Melchizedek deserves worship as a God too!

Let's see, what else?? Oh yes, the term "begotten" is not found in the oldest manuscripts and has been removed from most modern translations. Now it is "unique". You know, kinda like Melchizekek.

No, the one thing Jesus preached was not "repentance because all sinned", it was OH HEAR O ISRAEL, THE LORD THY GOD IS ONE LORD! You know...the FIRST commandment. What you are quoting is PAULINE doctrine...not the Gospel according to Jesus. Speaking of which....where exactly is that??

So, please don't insult me by suggesting I don't have a clue when I am very well versed in Biblical doctrine. Far from a scholar, but I studied for YEARS and still do. So, once again, your opinions and accusations about me are unfounded.

Peace :statisfie

Hana

[Malaikah]

But here's where the real question lies. If you believe the Bible to be the word of God, then you have to believe all of it, otherwise if there's some fault in it, then it cannot be considered the Word of God, as God is Perfect, and so shud be his WORD. I don't think it makes sense to only believe certain parts which agree with your own beliefs.

That's just it. We don't believe the bible is the word of God. The bible is a book written by men. There are some chapters that Christians believe are actually the word of God (I think it was the first four chapters/books of the OT), but as for the most part, it was written by men. Therefore it is not the word of God at all.

As Muslims, our Holy Book is the Quran and only that is the pure Word of God remaining today. We believe that there is some truth in the bible, but that there is also much falsehood.

[MustafaMc]

The term begotten emphasizes the relationship between God and Jesus is as precious a Father has with his Only begotten Son.

...but Adam was also the "son of God" Luke 3:37.

[جوري]

^^ very true +
"Israel is my son, even my firstborn." II Samuel 7:14 and I Chronicles 22:10: "...and he shall be my son (Solomon)." Jeremiah 31:9: "...and Ephraim is my firstborn." Also, Psalm 2:7.

In Psalm 2:7, the Lord said to David:

"...Thou art my son: this day have I begotten thee."

:w:

[MustafaMc]

And, ummm, who was that other guy, hmmmmm, let me think, you know the guy with no beginning and no end, without mother and father...noooo, not God, not Jesus, but Melchizedek!!!! By your explanation Melchizedek deserves worship as a God too!

Yes, I was shocked to read about this in Hebrews 7:1-3. Actually, Melchizedek is "one-up" on Jesus (as), because at least Jesus (as) had a mother.

[*Hana*]

Yes, I was shocked to read about this in Hebrews 7:1-3. Actually, Melchizedek is "one-up" on Jesus (as), because at least Jesus (as) had a mother.

Yup, exactly!!

[john316]

Yes, I was shocked to read about this in Hebrews 7:1-3. Actually, Melchizedek is "one-up" on Jesus (as), because at least Jesus (as) had a mother.

I personally think that the verse merely represents Melchizedek's not being a priesthood holder because of lineage probably "without descent" meaning not a descendent of Levi as required by Mosaic Law. Jesus was not a descendant of Levi. But his ordaination comes from God the Most High.

[جوري]

so God ordained himself?

[john316]

like the athiest say if God created us who created God? If Jesus was begotten did he have a beginning? No. All of Jesus is in God and all of God is in Jesus. One God One Lord. Well God/Jesus/Spirit are omniscient omnipotent omnieverything I would say. Well as a human I have only so much knowledge about heaven. But when we get there we will know better.

[جوري]

I don't see the assimilation that you've made of atheists questioning who created the creator and God begetting himself as a good analogy. The very premise is faulty...

one questions the fabric of causality, the other questions your common sense!

cheers

[Woodrow]

like the athiest say if God created us who created God? If Jesus was begotten did he have a beginning? No. All of Jesus is in God and all of God is in Jesus. One God One Lord. Well God/Jesus/Spirit are omniscient omnipotent omnieverything I would say. Well as a human I have only so much knowledge about heaven. But when we get there we will know better.

Sadly, it will be a long futile journey as long as you continue to commit the unforgivable sin of shirk.

4:170. O people! surely the Messenger has come to you with the truth from your Lord, therefore believe, (it shall be) good for you and If you disbelieve, then surely whatever is in the heavens and the earth is Allah's; and Allah is Knowing, Wise. P Y C
4:171. O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only a messenger of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His messengers, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one Allah; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector. P Y C

4:172. The Messiah does by no means disdain that he should be a servant of Allah, nor do the angels who are near to Him, and whoever disdains His service and is proud, He will gather them all together to Himself. P Y C


Shakir's Quran Translation

9:30. And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away! P Y C
9:31. They have taken their doctors of law and their monks for lords besides Allah, and (also) the Messiah son of Marium and they were enjoined that they should serve one Allah only, there is no god but He; far from His glory be what they set up (with Him). P Y C

Shakir's Quran Translation

It is true that some Christians and some Jews will also gain heaven, but I do not know the specific conditions under which that can be met.

2:62. Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. P Y C


Shakir's Quran Translation

[john316]

that is your unforgivable according to your Islamic theology. According to Christianity the only sin that God doesnt forgive is unwillingness to accept his forgiveness.

[*Hana*]

that is your unforgivable according to your Islamic theology. According to Christianity the only sin that God doesnt forgive is unwillingness to accept his forgiveness.

lol so what are you saying?? Your unforgivable sin is better than Islam's unforgivable sin? neener neener neener :hmm:

You say your salvation is based on doctrine that was never known before Jesus, was preached by ONE, self-appointed apostle, Paul, but was never accepted until 325 years later at the Council of Nicea, is in no way able to be explained logically, (even though God says He's not the author of confusion), and by not believing in this doctrine, never taught by Jesus, or any other CHOSEN prophet of God, you can't obtain heaven.

Islam says what all chosen prophets of God said, There is only ONE God. Not accepting that and praying to and worshiping anything/anyone other than God is unforgivable.

Now, God Almighty being the creator of man is well aware of our limited abilities and we don't come close to knowing what He knows. Yet, you want us to believe God gave us a doctrine so illogical, so confusing, so unfair that no one has been able to grasp it fully and must rely on blind faith in order to obtain salvation??? So He made us and gave us limited knowledge and ability but made our salvation impossible to understand. Is this just? What a cruel thing to do? :cry:

In Islam, we are told over and over how much Allah, swt, LOVES to forgive and all we have to do is turn to Him in prayer asking. All He asks is that we not pray to anyone except Him. Simple, logical, easy to understand and most important, FAIR and JUST....exactly what you would expect from your creator and exactly what was taught by ALL Prophets of God!

Hana

[*Hana*]

like the athiest say if God created us who created God? If Jesus was begotten did he have a beginning? No. All of Jesus is in God and all of God is in Jesus. One God One Lord. Well God/Jesus/Spirit are omniscient omnipotent omnieverything I would say. Well as a human I have only so much knowledge about heaven. But when we get there we will know better.

The difference is God told us He has always been...no beginning, no end, not created. However, we are given full details of the creation, of Jesus, pbuh. Born of Mary, raised by her from the day He was born. God simply said, "be", just as Adam was created, (another biblical figure born without parents!). Did you notice how many biblical figures were born without benefit of parents...yet Jesus, pbuh, is not included in that number. David was called the begotten son...why not worship him? So, you can try to juggle words, (words that are not found in the oldest manuscripts), but you can never make them fit because it is not logical, and God is not the author of confusion.

We all know Jesus, was not "omnieverything". He was born normally, did not have the knowledge of God, (ie: not knowing the date and time of the last day, or when a tree should produce fruit, etc., etc., etc.), was limited in what He could do, (on His own He can do nothing), He prayed to a higher power, etc.

You're right, as a human you do not have full knowledge of heaven and the last day...just as Jesus, pbuh, did not.

Hana

[*Hana*]

I personally think that the verse merely represents Melchizedek's not being a priesthood holder because of lineage probably "without descent" meaning not a descendent of Levi as required by Mosaic Law. Jesus was not a descendant of Levi. But his ordaination comes from God the Most High.

What you personally think???

Will you also be writing a book and inserting it into the bible to share your thoughts on the matter? Or perhaps you will just re-write a couple of the verses that are already present to include what you personally think? Seems to me, this is how all this mess started in the first place. :hmm: Too many people over the past 2000 took liberties with inserting their "personal thoughts" into the books of the bible.

No offense, but your personal opinion doesn't override the words of God, nor are they equal.

Hana

[john316]

All the prophets of God spoke not for themselves but they spoke for God and His Christ. Nor did any of them consider themsves to be greater than other. Moses, Elijah, Isaiah all humbled themselves before God and did not consider themselves to be greater than one another. John the Baptist did not consider himself to be greater than Jesus. He spoke for God and for Christ. Jesus spoke for God and did God's will by giving God's free gift of eternal life to them that believe. Chrsitians lost their lives for their profession in Christ before Christianity became legalised in the roman empire. Why would saints give their lives for the resurrection which muslims hold to be a lie.

The prophet in Duet 18;18 is Jesus.

When David said "The LORD said to my Lord" he was calling Jesus Lord. even though he is an ancsetor of Jesus.

First born what does it mean. In God's kingdom He has no second borns. if that be the case where he had second brons then there would be partiality. All who do his perfect and pleasing will be treated by Him like He is among His first born.

[john316]

What you personally think???

Will you also be writing a book and inserting it into the bible to share your thoughts on the matter? Or perhaps you will just re-write a couple of the verses that are already present to include what you personally think? Seems to me, this is how all this mess started in the first place. :hmm: Too many people over the past 2000 took liberties with inserting their "personal thoughts" into the books of the bible.

No offense, but your personal opinion doesn't override the words of God, nor are they equal.

Hana

what makes you think that I am using my thoughts to overide the Bible...I dont my thought are alwasys right and others are wrong. But things like these are minor issues. God's message is clear and concise.


TURN OR BURN

[*Hana*]

what makes you think that I am using my thoughts to overide the Bible...I dont my thought are alwasys right and others are wrong. But things like these are minor issues. God's message is clear and concise.


TURN OR BURN

Turn or Burn?? LOOOOL Did you learn that from Jesus? :hmm: Please provide the chapter and verse. Sounds like you're getting a little frustrated, John316.

What makes me think you are using your thoughts? Hmmm, good question, I really don't, except when you said, You PERSONALLY think a verse means something. It only matters what God meant...not what you THINK it means. See the difference???

Hana

[*Hana*]

All the prophets of God spoke not for themselves but they spoke for God and His Christ. Nor did any of them consider themsves to be greater than other. Moses, Elijah, Isaiah all humbled themselves before God and did not consider themselves to be greater than one another. John the Baptist did not consider himself to be greater than Jesus. He spoke for God and for Christ. Jesus spoke for God and did God's will by giving God's free gift of eternal life to them that believe. Chrsitians lost their lives for their profession in Christ before Christianity became legalised in the roman empire. Why would saints give their lives for the resurrection which muslims hold to be a lie.

The prophet in Duet 18;18 is Jesus.

When David said "The LORD said to my Lord" he was calling Jesus Lord. even though he is an ancsetor of Jesus.

First born what does it mean. In God's kingdom He has no second borns. if that be the case where he had second brons then there would be partiality. All who do his perfect and pleasing will be treated by Him like He is among His first born.

The Prophet in Deut. 18:18 cannot be Jesus. We already know the Jews, in the lifetime of Jesus, were still waiting for 3 different prophesies to come true.

They were waiting for the return of Elijah, waiting for the Christ (which they didn't believe was Jesus), and waiting for the Prophet mentioned in Deut. That's THREE different identities. When they asked John who he was he said he was not the Christ, the Jews asked if he was Elijah returned and he said no, they then asked if he was THAT prophet. We know he was A prophet, but he denied being THAT prophet spoke of in Deut. So, you can see clearly there are THREE individual prophesies so the Prophet like Moses is separate and distinct from the Christ. So, who then, is the Prophet in Deut. 18?

As Muslims, we already know the answer.

As Muslims we absolutely deny the resurrection. Outside of Pauline doctrine in the bible, give me ONE, non Christian account of this amazing, tremendous, eternal life-saving event. Give me one non-Christian account of the hundreds of rotting corpses that walked the streets that day. There is no historical evidence that supports it. According to the bible hundreds saw it happen, but not even the enemies of Jesus thought to write one word about it. Wouldn't you expect a mass conversion to follow Christ after such a display?

Paul was never trusted or accepted by the true followers of Christ and was always accused of teaching false doctrine. It was also the reason he was eventually killed.

That's only part of the reason we do not and cannot accept this event as truth.

Now to quote you, "turn or burn"...is that right? :giggling: it cracks me up.

Peace,
Hana

[john316]

The Prophet in Deut. 18:18 cannot be Jesus. We already know the Jews, in the lifetime of Jesus, were still waiting for 3 different prophesies to come true.

They were waiting for the return of Elijah, waiting for the Christ (which they didn't believe was Jesus), and waiting for the Prophet mentioned in Deut. That's THREE different identities. When they asked John who he was he said he was not the Christ, the Jews asked if he was Elijah returned and he said no, they then asked if he was THAT prophet. We know he was A prophet, but he denied being THAT prophet spoke of in Deut. So, you can see clearly there are THREE individual prophesies so the Prophet like Moses is separate and distinct from the Christ. So, who then, is the Prophet in Deut. 18?

As Muslims, we already know the answer.

As Muslims we absolutely deny the resurrection. Outside of Pauline doctrine in the bible, give me ONE, non Christian account of this amazing, tremendous, eternal life-saving event. Give me one non-Christian account of the hundreds of rotting corpses that walked the streets that day. There is no historical evidence that supports it. According to the bible hundreds saw it happen, but not even the enemies of Jesus thought to write one word about it. Wouldn't you expect a mass conversion to follow Christ after such a display?

Paul was never trusted or accepted by the true followers of Christ and was always accused of teaching false doctrine. It was also the reason he was eventually killed.

That's only part of the reason we do not and cannot accept this event as truth.

Now to quote you, "turn or burn"...is that right? :giggling: it cracks me up.

Peace,
Hana

not just Paul but other disciples who were with Christ. Many Jews left the old way of worship and accepted Christ. 50 million lost their lives for Christ.....need I say anything more.

[john316]

TURN OR BURN

Luke 13:1-9
1There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.

2And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

3I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

4Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

5I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

6He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.

7Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?

8And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:

9And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down

[YusufNoor]

like the athiest say if God created us who created God? If Jesus was begotten did he have a beginning? No. All of Jesus is in God and all of God is in Jesus. One God One Lord. Well God/Jesus/Spirit are omniscient omnipotent omnieverything I would say. Well as a human I have only so much knowledge about heaven. But when we get there we will know better.

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

IF that's why you claim about Jesus, then why do you lie and say that he died? :eek:

dying pretty much sounds like "an end" to me! :omg:

i'm guessing that you just change it to suit your purposes, eh?:?

:w:

[MustafaMc]

According to Christianity the only sin that God doesnt forgive is unwillingness to accept his forgiveness.

As Hana_Aku has said,

LOOOOL Did you learn that from Jesus? :hmm: Please provide the chapter and verse.

According to the NT, the unforgiveable sin is "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit," which according to Islam is saying that Allah has a father, mother, son, daughter or otherwise partner or equal in His Divinity - in other words shirk.

[john316]

As Hana_Aku has said, According to the NT, the unforgiveable sin is "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit," which according to Islam is saying that Allah has a father, mother, son, daughter or otherwise partner or equal in His Divinity - in other words shirk.

that is blasphemy of the HS. Read into it and see what it says. Rejecting Jesus and receiving no forgiveness.

[MustafaMc]

All of Jesus is in God and all of God is in Jesus. One God One Lord.

If this is so, then why would Jesus pray to another in the Garden of Gethsemane that, "If He be willing, the cup be removed from him, nevertheless not my will, but Yours be done." Sounds like to me two opposing wills at work, yet Jesus submitted his personal will to that of the Father. Also, why would Jesus say, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" If in fact they were one and the same, Jesus could not pray to nor cry out to the Father and the Father could in no sense of the word forsake Himself.

[*Hana*]

not just Paul but other disciples who were with Christ. Many Jews left the old way of worship and accepted Christ. 50 million lost their lives for Christ.....need I say anything more.

lol, yeah, prove it. What other disciples? 50 million??? hmmm, and how many non Christians did they slaughter along the way?

There's lots more you could say, and you should because making a blanket statement without proof is useless.

Hana

[*Hana*]

TURN OR BURN

Luke 13:1-9
1There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.

2And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

3I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

4Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

5I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

6He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.

7Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?

8And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:

9And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down

Exactly what I expected...thanks for not disappointing me. :mmokay:

[AvarAllahNoor]

It's scary following Johns 'Religion' because his 'God' is full of wrath! :(

[john316]

The wrath of God as described in Paul's Letter to the Romans:


Romans 1:18-32
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[c] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[d] unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

[snakelegs]

TURN OR BURN

what a lovely mantra!
a little too chilly for a barbeque, isn't it?

[AvarAllahNoor]

What a lovely mantra!

LOL - Imagine a Shabad with these lyrics :)

[john316]

If this is so, then why would Jesus pray to another in the Garden of Gethsemane that, "If He be willing, the cup be removed from him, nevertheless not my will, but Yours be done." Sounds like to me two opposing wills at work, yet Jesus submitted his personal will to that of the Father. Also, why would Jesus say, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" If in fact they were one and the same, Jesus could not pray to nor cry out to the Father and the Father could in no sense of the word forsake Himself.

Jesus was saying as a human. He died because He was human. but he was also God by nature. He died once for your sins He will never die again.

[snakelegs]

LOL - Imagine a Shabad with these lyrics :)

;D ;D ;D ;D!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MustafaMc]

Jesus was saying as a human. He died because He was human. but he was also God by nature.

..and yet you also quoted the Bible, "22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—" We know that our limited human minds can not comprehend the Grandeur of the Creator, the One God - Allah (swt). To imagine that the Majesty of Allah could reside within a human body is incomprehesible to me. I can't imagine Allah being born of a woman and dying on a cross or His needing to wash, sleep, eat, drink, or to relieve Himself of waste (astighfir'Allah).

The fact that Jesus (as) prayed to the Father in the Garden and that the Father said at Jesus' baptism and his transfiguration, "This is my son, in whom I am well pleased" proves beyond any doubt that the two beings, Father and son, were indeed separate entities with the son being subordinate to the Father.

As a Muslim, I bear witness that there is only One God, Allah, and that Muhammad is His Servant and Messenger.

[MustafaMc]

TURN OR BURN

I prefer the less offensive bumper sticker, "Know Jesus, know salvation. No Jesus, no salvation" ... but I can relate to "TURN OR BURN", too.

I remember visiting my grandparents in the hills of Mississippi during the early 70's. Their house had a fireplace for heat, but no insulation in the walls or ceiling. I remember standing in front of the fireplace and being hot :phew on one side and cold :rollseyes on the other. The way we kept turning reminds me of a whole chicken being cooked on a rotisserie.

[*Hana*]

what a lovely mantra!
a little too chilly for a barbeque, isn't it?

Omg, that cracked me up. looool :giggling:

[*Hana*]

I prefer the less offensive bumper sticker, "Know Jesus, know salvation. No Jesus, no salvation" ... but I can relate to "TURN OR BURN", too.

I remember visiting my grandparents in the hills of Mississippi during the early 70's. Their house had a fireplace for heat, but no insulation in the walls or ceiling. I remember standing in front of the fireplace and being hot :phew on one side and cold :rollseyes on the other. The way we kept turning reminds me of a whole chicken being cooked on a rotisserie.

LOOOL the visual!! ;D

[YusufNoor]

like the athiest say if God created us who created God? If Jesus was begotten did he have a beginning? No. All of Jesus is in God and all of God is in Jesus. One God One Lord. Well God/Jesus/Spirit are omniscient omnipotent omnieverything I would say. Well as a human I have only so much knowledge about heaven. But when we get there we will know better.

J esus was saying as a human. He died because He was human. but he was also God by nature. He died once for your sins He will never die again.

IF it takes a TRIUNE of God[s] to run the universe, however did they manage when Jesus was human? :?

they were one short! :omg:

does that mean it only takes 2 gods to run the universe? :mmokay:

are you SURE, that 1 Lord God Almighty couldn't handle it?

:w:

[*Hana*]

Jesus was saying as a human. He died because He was human. but he was also God by nature. He died once for your sins He will never die again.

Ohhh, no, no, no, that's not correct at all. He HAS to die again in order to be spiritually resurrected. Remember there are 2 types of resurrections....physical and spiritual. Physical, is like Lazarus. Raised from the dead, required food, water, etc., to sustain life and then died, and will be spiritually resurrected. A spiritual resurrection makes you like the angels...no food or water required, no need for bones and skin, etc. AND....the spiritually resurrected person will NOT die again.

Jesus, according to the the bible was very much alive when he went into the room to meet with his apostles after His "supposed" resurrection. He told them, He was not a ghost, and encouraged them to come touch Him to feel his skin and bones, because spirits don't have skin and bones. He also made a point in asking for food to further prove He was very much alive.

So, tell me, John316, when did Jesus "die again" to become spiritually resurrected?

peace,

Hana

[barney]

Jesus said that anyone who called another a "Fool" would be bound for hell.
About seven odd pages later he calls the Pharasees "Fools".

I would imagine that he would just have to forgive himself and all would be well, but until he did repent, then temporalily he had surely sinned?

[Umar001]

Jesus said that anyone who called another a "Fool" would be bound for hell.
About seven odd pages later he calls the Pharasees "Fools".

I would imagine that he would just have to forgive himself and all would be well, but until he did repent, then temporalily he had surely sinned?

Or maybe the context is different? When you deal with such things from a single source wouldn't it make more sense to state that he may have meant different things.

[YusufNoor]

Jesus said that anyone who called another a "Fool" would be bound for hell.
About seven odd pages later he calls the Pharasees "Fools".

I would imagine that he would just have to forgive himself and all would be well, but until he did repent, then temporalily he had surely sinned?

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

i'm not so, sure i agree with you on this one Barney.

Jesus said that anyone who called another a "Fool" would be bound for hell

this quote is dealing with the believers and their sincerity and self perception. it would be arrogant to think of being better than others when you are only following the truth because Allah Ta' Aala guided you and showed you His Mercy.

the Pharisees had become more wrapped up in "looking pious" than actually "being pious"; Jesus/Isa ibn Marryam as the Jewish Messiah come with Injeel for them would have been within his purpose by pointing out that those who should have been stalwarts of their Deen were actually poisoning it and preventing others from adhering to Allah Ta' Aala's religion. you will find that Jesus/Isa ibn Marryam actually called them much worse!

as an interesting note, you will find that Jesus/Isa ibn Maryam's message was VERY similar to the "School of Hillel" and those Pharisees that leaned in that direction supported him, while the others were more like the "School of Shimei" in that they were more concerned with properly following "religious rites" than actually showing Mercy to others.

:w: