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snakelegs
02-21-2008, 02:41 AM
[NOTE TO MOD:
this info came from link removed i know this site does not reflect the views of mainstream islam. (they reject the ahadith). this is why i am wondering if the info is accurate.]

i recently read that usury (riba) and interest (faeda) are not the same and that it is usury that is prohibited in the qur'an, not interest.
this is the first time i have read this distinction.
according to this, usury is excessive interest, which is forbidden. it is ok to take loans from banks (like to buy a house or a car).
is that true - is there a difference???
thanks in advance.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
02-26-2008, 10:50 AM
:salamext:

Thread approved. Link has been removed, because the site itself is inauthentic so we shouldn't promote it.
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snakelegs
02-29-2008, 04:49 AM
bump!
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Khayal
02-29-2008, 05:16 AM
Hi, Snakeleg, I found this article, I hope it will help.

************



RIBA (USURY AND INTEREST)

http://allaahuakbar.net/islaamic_banking/RIBA.HTM

Defining the Problem

Riba (Usury) is of two major kinds:
  1. Riba An-Nasia - Interest on lent money
  2. Riba Al-Fadl - Taking a superior thing of the same kind of goods by giving more of the same kind of goods of inferior quality, e.g, dates of superior quality for dates of inferior quality in great amounts.
The definition of Interest, the literal meaning of interest or Al-Riba as it is used in the arabic language means to excess or increase. In the Islamic terminology interest means effortless profit or that profit which comes free from compensation or that extra earning obtained that is free of exchange. Riba has been described as a loan with the condition that the borrower will return to the lender more than and better than the quantity borrowed.
As muslims, our main concern when it comes to financial transactions is to avoid Riba in any of its forms, despite the fact that the basic foundation of the world economics and finance today is that of riba and dealing in usury.
The Prophet has foretold us of a time when the spread of riba would be so overwhelming that it would be extremely difficult for the Muslim to avoid it. This situation calls for muslims to be extra cautious before deciding on what money payment of financial methods to use in any personal or business transaction.
To make sure that we are safe from Riba, we have to learn which transactions lead to it.
Interest in Pre-Islamic Times
HafizIbn hajr writes in his commentary of Sahih Bukhari (Fathul Bari), Vol. IV p.264:
Imam Malik reports on the authority of Zaid Ibn Aslam that in the period of ignorance (pre-Islamic times) interest was charged according to the following scheme. One person had a right to the property of another person. It may have been a general right because of the amount lent or the price of something purchased or in any other form. A time was set when the claim would be settled. When the appointed time arrived the creditor would ask the debtor if he wanted to settle the claim or pay interest with an extension of time. If the claim was settled then there was no increase in the payment. Otherwise the debtor would increase the amount payable and the creditor would extend the period further.
Textual Evidence
Hadith - Sahih Bukhari, Volume 3, No. 299; Narrated ‘Aun bin Abu Juhaifah, r.a.
My father bought a slave who practised the profession of cupping, (My father broke the servants instruments of cupping). I asked my father why he had done so. He replied, "The Prophet forbade the acceptance of the price of a dog or blood, and also forbade the profession of tatooing, or getting tatooed and receiving or giving Riba (Usury), and cursed the picture makers."
Hadith - Sahih Bukhari, 2.468, Narrated Samura bin Jundab, r.a.
He speaks of in a dream related to the Prophet (SAW) that there is a river of blood and a man was in it, and another man was standing at its bank with stones in front of him, facing the man standing in the river. Whenever the man in the river wanted to come out , the other one threw a stone in his mouth and caused him to retreat back into his original position. The Prophet was told that these people in this river of blood were people who dealt in Riba (usury).

The Noble Qur'an - Al-Baqarah 275-281
275. Those who eat Ribâ (usury) will not stand (on the Day of Resurrection) except like the standing of a person beaten by Shaitân (Satan) leading him to insanity. That is because they say: "Trading is only like Ribâ (usury)," whereas Allâh has permitted trading and forbidden Ribâ (usury). So whosoever receives an admonition from his Lord and stops eating Ribâ (usury) shall not be punished for the past; his case is for Allâh (to judge); but whoever returns [to Ribâ (usury)], such are the dwellers of the Fire - they will abide therein.
276. Allâh will destroy Ribâ (usury) and will give increase for Sadaqât (deeds of charity, alms, etc.) And Allâh likes not the disbelievers, sinners.
277. Truly those who believe, and do deeds of righteousness, and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give Zakât, they will have their reward with their Lord. On them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
278. O you who believe! Be afraid of Allâh and give up what remains (due to you) from Ribâ (usury) (from now onward), if you are (really) believers.
279. And if you do not do it, then take a notice of war from Allâh and His Messenger but if you repent, you shall have your capital sums. Deal not unjustly (by asking more than your capital sums), and you shall not be dealt with unjustly (by receiving less than your capital sums).
280. And if the debtor is in a hard time (has no money), then grant him time till it is easy for him to repay, but if you remit it by way of charity, that is better for you if you did but know.
281. And be afraid of the Day when you shall be brought back to Allâh. Then every person shall be paid what he earned, and they shall not be dealt with unjustly.
The Noble Qur'an - Al-Imran 3:130
O you who believe! Eat not Ribâ (usury) doubled and multiplied, but fear Allâh that you may be successful.
Hadith - Mishkat-ul-Masabih

The following three ahaadeeth have been taken from Mishkat-ul-Masabih under the section of interest and the English translation has been taken from its English version written by Al Hajj Moulana Fazl Karim (218-227 vol.11)
  • Hazrat Jabir r.a. has reported that the Messenger of Allah cursed the devourer of usury, its payer, its scribe and its two witnesses. He also said that they were equal (in sin).
  • Hazrat Abu Hurairah r.a. reported that the Prophet said : A time will certainly come over the people when none will remain who will not devour usury. If he does not devour it, its vapour will overtake him.
    [Ahmed,Abu Dawood,Nisai,Ibn Majah]
  • Hazrat Abu Hurairah radiyallahu anhu reported that the Messenger of Allah said: I came across some people in the night in which I was taken to the heavens. Their stomachs were like houses wherein there were serpents, which could be seen from the front of the stomachs. I asked :O Gabriel! Who are these people? He replied these are those who devoured usury. [Ahmed,Ibn Majah]
Hadith - ??
Hazrat Al-Khudri radiyallahu anhu reported that the Prophet said: Gold in exchange for gold, silver in exchange for silver, wheat in exchange for wheat, barley in exchange for barley, dates in exchange for dates, salt in exchange for salt is in the same category and (should be exchanged) hand to hand, so whoever adds or demands increase he has practiced usury. The giver and taker are the same.

Conclusion
After reading the above, it is apparent to us that interest is haram (prohibited). How could anybody even take the time out to think about a matter in which Allah has declared war on the user and his Beloved Prophet has cursed him? As sensible people we can understand that what our Creator has chosen for us is for our own prosperity and benefit.
Islam has encouraged men to earn their own provision and provide for their families. The condition is that the earning has to be according to the Shari’ah. These rules can be found under the heading of trade in the books of jurisprudence. Interest is amongst those conditions which all dealings must be free from.
Imam Abu Hanifah has ruled that if the measurement system (volumetric or in compounds) is the same and the two items are in the same category, then they should be sold in the same amount and direct not in credit otherwise interest will be found.

Imam Shaf’ee says that if the items are valuable and could be considered food then there is the chance of interest.

Imam Malik says that if the items are valuable and are edible then interest is a subject.

Related Link:

List of Islamic Banks & Financing
  • Giving and taking interest is Islamically unlawful.
  • A person who takes interest does not gain anything in reality but through the explanation of the Qur'an verse. In reality the money through Ribâ just goes to waste and the person does not even realize it, and a person who gives money in the path of Allah, in whatever form it may be, actually gains although in reality it may seem as though he is losing out.
  • Every person should take all necessary precautions in their financial and social dealings. If a person neglects in keeping a watchful eye on financial dealings, this negligence will slowly spread to other aspects of religion, having a very detrimental effect.
  • Interest is hazardous and should be abstained from in all manners. If anybody has a case they wish to solve then they should contact a knowledgeable person in this deen of Islam and present their problem as well as in all cases every individual should continue to seek Allah’s forgiveness and guidance.
  • In order to own a credit card and avoid paying Ribâ, you must make payment on purchases before the statement comes in, i.e. send the credit card company the check for payment as soon as you make the purchase. If you are too tempted and unable to purchase things without immediately paying for them (and thereby will be charged interest), don't use them or don't even have them. Fear your Lord!
  • As a reminder to us all, Allah (SWT) has told us in the Qur'ân [2:279] if we don’t give up interest ,we must take notice of a war from Allah!
    • Are you ready to go into battle against Allah (SWT)?
    • Will you and your army of feeble credit cards be sufficient to do battle with Allah
      (SWT)?
    • How can you justify doing something that’s Haram?
  • Muslims who are in debt and do not want to participate in Ribâ, or those who need financial advice are encouraged to consult with Islamic Finance companies and banks.
Remember... Allah, subhana watala, sees everything we do!



Source.
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Khayal
02-29-2008, 05:22 AM
You can read more here!



.
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Gator
02-29-2008, 05:44 AM
OK. but the quotes above say Riba (usury). Now the word "usury" in modern english is regarded as outsized rates of interest, (usually reserved for loan sharks and credit cards). That's why the quaran quote above states "double or multiplied". Now if Arabic does not have this distinction between Interest and usury, its going to be hard to get a rock solid translation and gives wide latitude for interpretation.

And then there's this quote "As muslims, our main concern when it comes to financial transactions is to avoid Riba in any of its forms, despite the fact that the basic foundation of the world economics and finance today is that of riba and dealing in usury. " The use of the word "usury" is inflamitory in my opinion. Interest is a basic requirement to fulfill time value of money and opportunity cost. The use of the word usury in this context colors the author as a little out there.

Interest allows people access to money they would not ordinarily have and compensates the lender for lost opportunity. I would agree, the problem comes when the interest charged is excessive.
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Malaikah
02-29-2008, 06:00 AM
In Islam both usury and interest are forbidden. I've never heard of a difference of opinion of the scholars on this.
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Gator
02-29-2008, 06:11 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
In Islam both usury and interest are forbidden. I've never heard of a difference of opinion of the scholars on this.
Here's a terrific article on the problem (presents both sides well, i believe). It appears the dilemma has been discussed by scholars since the beginning.

http://www.mostmerciful.com/riba.htm

Basically, it's not set in stone and open to interpretation.
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Malaikah
02-29-2008, 06:27 AM
Thank you for the link Gator but I never take information about my religion from an unknown website.
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snakelegs
02-29-2008, 08:09 AM
thanks for the replies.
does anyone know if the qur'an uses both the terms "faeda" and "riba"?
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crayon
02-29-2008, 10:04 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
thanks for the replies.
does anyone know if the qur'an uses both the terms "faeda" and "riba"?
I'm about 99% sure only the word "riba" is used, faeda is not.
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snakelegs
02-29-2008, 09:56 PM
thanks crayon. if anyone knows differently about "riba" and "faeda", please post it here.
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aamirsaab
02-29-2008, 10:38 PM
:sl:
Currently doing some reading on Islamic theology. I'll try and get an answer for this. My initial reading into this subject gave that link (which was posted in another thread and posted here but Mod's deleted it cus it was how we say not right --- I did not know this at the time. Sorry!)

So, like I said. I'll do some reading on this subject tonight - I recently went to an islam awareness thingy at uni and picked up some really good resources which will form up some of my background knowledge on this subject. Hopefully it will explain the economical side of Islam.

Probably get an answer to you tomorrow at the very latest.
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snakelegs
03-01-2008, 02:15 AM
cool! i think it's an important subject. IF it was true that the prohibition is usury and not interest, it could mean that things like buying a house, a car, having a credit card would be ok.
but i've never seen this distinction made before.
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Malaikah
03-01-2008, 04:25 AM
I've never heard that before iether, snakelegs.

In fact, the Saheeh International* English translation of the Quran especially emphasises the big mistake of previous translations for translating riba as usury, because it gives the impression that interest isn't included in the translation.

[*which, btw, is the most recommended translation.]
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Gator
03-01-2008, 04:44 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
cool! i think it's an important subject. IF it was true that the prohibition is usury and not interest, it could mean that things like buying a house, a car, having a credit card would be ok.
but i've never seen this distinction made before.
From previous link...

The commentary # 35 to verse 30: 39, by Scholar Mohammad Asad:

Mohammad Asad writes; In the words of Ibn Kathir (in his commentary on 2: 275), "the subject of riba is one of the most difficult subjects for many of scholars (ahl al-'ilm)". It should be borne in mind that the passage condemning or prohibiting riba in legal terms [{2: 275-281}] was the last revelation received by the Prophet, who died a few days later [cf. note [268] on 2: 281; hence the Companions had no opportunity to ask him about the Shar'i implications of the relevant injection - so much so that even 'Umar ibn al-Khattab is reliably reported to have said: "The last [of Qur'an] that was revealed was the passage [lit., "the verse"] on riba; and, behold, the Apostle of God passed away without [lit., "before"] having explained its meaning to us" [Ibn Hambal, on the authority of Sa'id ibn al-Musayyab].

_________

The recorded comments also inform us that although the subject of Riba is "one of the most difficult subjects", there is a "room for difference of opinion". Due to the absence of the specific directives on the subject from the Prophet (peace be upon him), to the Companions and the non existence of the conclusive concurrence over a long period, there have been varying interpretations and definitions provided by scholars for the Qur'anic term Riba.
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ahsan28
03-01-2008, 08:10 AM
Mufti Taqi Usmani has dealt with the subject in detail which might be beneficial for desired information:-

http://www.albalagh.net/Islamic_econ...udgement.shtml
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aamirsaab
03-01-2008, 11:35 AM
:sl:
According to Yusuf Ali's translation, his footnote in relation to surah 2 ayat 275 says that usury includes: undue profit made out of loans of gold and silver, and neccessary articles of food, such as wheat barley etc. It also includes profiteering from all kinds, but excludes economic credit.

In which case, a sharia based economy would work today.

I also took the liberty in reading another translation by Zafar Ishaq Ansari. His footnote says that their is some unsoundness of this verse (sura 2, ayat 275) since it doesn't differentiate between the profit one gains in an investment in commercial expenses (which by the way IS allowed!) and interest. He then goes on to mention that proponents of this view argue that if profit on money invested in a business enterprise is permissable, why should the profit accruing on loanded money (interest) be deemed unlawful.

I had a look in my book of Sahih Al-bukhari hadith with regards to usury/riba, but was not able to find any more meaning towards it. So for now, I think Yusuf Ali's footnote seems most suitable, since it would explain why the Islamic economy (at the time) did not falter, seeing as interest is a core part in economics and business - something that arabs at the time were well adapt with.

p.s; the Yusuf Ali footnote I used was condensed; the full version contained the passage that Gator [see two posts before this one] gave.

p.p.s; Thanks Ahsan28 for the link - will be reading that ASAP!
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Malaikah
03-01-2008, 12:03 PM
He then goes on to mention that proponents of this view argue that if profit on money invested in a business enterprise is permissable, why should the profit accruing on loanded money (interest) be deemed unlawful.
:sl:

This reminds me of the verse:

Those who eat Ribâ (usury) will not stand (on the Day of Resurrection) except like the standing of a person beaten by Shaitân (Satan) leading him to insanity. That is because they say: "Trading is only like Ribâ (usury)," whereas Allâh has permitted trading and forbidden Ribâ (usury).

[2:275]

:?
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aamirsaab
03-01-2008, 12:15 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
:sl:

This reminds me of the verse:

Those who eat Ribâ (usury) will not stand (on the Day of Resurrection) except like the standing of a person beaten by Shaitân (Satan) leading him to insanity. That is because they say: "Trading is only like Ribâ (usury)," whereas Allâh has permitted trading and forbidden Ribâ (usury).

[2:275]

:?
It relates to the same verse. The footnote I gave is, if memory serves me right, just before that excerpt you posted.

The excerpt you gave is rather confusing. I think Yusuf Ali explained it in his translation, but I didn't write it down when I did for my previous post. I'll have a check on it and see if he can shed some light on it.
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ahsan28
03-01-2008, 12:39 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:
p.p.s; Thanks Ahsan28 for the link - will be reading that ASAP!

You are most welcome brother. Inshallah that will help remove many doubts regarding financial matters. Mufti Taqi is considered an authority on the subject.
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aamirsaab
03-01-2008, 02:02 PM
:sl:
Erm, I just realised the enormity of this aspect. I have 8 books on th Islamic economy - EIGHT!

Therefore, I think the answer is going to be of significant size and will take some time ( I spent about an hour last night researching 2 translations and Sahih Al-Bukhari in relation to this topic - and those only cover a small amount [3 or so specific ayats]. I've go 8 books left to read - each fully detailing the aspects of interest and economy!) This is going to take some time that's for sure!
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snakelegs
03-02-2008, 04:12 AM
8 books - yikes!!!!
have read the link from gator and part of the link from ahsan. (thanks both!). ahsan - your link looks pretty comprehensive and i'm going to try to read it all.
in all the qur'anic verses given, the word "riba" (and not "faeda") is used, as crayon said. and they do seem to point to usury = devouring - charging excessive fees. yet i find that many muslims think interest is haram, full stop. (as you brits say) some even go so far as to say it is forbidden to work in a bank. if you followed this it would mean that you could probably never buy a house or even a car to get to work.
i can see that this is indeed a vast subject and there are many different opinions. even islamqa (which is normally pretty black and white IMO), allows that:

"does that means that the scholars are agreed on all forms of riba? The answer is no; there is a difference of opinion concerning some forms of it. This is like what we have said about zakaah being obligatory according to consensus, but despite that there is no consensus on every form of it."

http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ref=22339&ln=eng

by the way - the article on islamqa also raises another intersting question. i was really surprised to read this. it says that:
"The belief that the well-known obligations are obligatory and that the well-known prohibitions are forbidden is one of the most important basic principles of faith, and the one who rejects that is a kaafir according to scholarly consensus."

is that true? i thought it was only a few specific things that took you outside of islam.
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Malaikah
03-02-2008, 11:34 AM
"The belief that the well-known obligations are obligatory and that the well-known prohibitions are forbidden is one of the most important basic principles of faith, and the one who rejects that is a kaafir according to scholarly consensus."
Yes it's true - don't you see it says according to the scholarly consensus? :D

Just before that quote, it said:

because the basic principle is that whoever rejects something on which there is obvious scholarly consensus is guilty of kufr.
If there is consensus that means there can be no doubt regarding the validity of the ruling - it must be true. Therefore is a person rejects a true consensus (the article says obvious) then the person is rejecting something that is 100% from Islam, and this is an act of kufr and takes a person out of Islam, just like how rejecting a verse from the Quran takes a person out of Islam.

This statement explained it better:

Ibn Qudaamah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

Whoever believes that something is permissible when there is consensus that it is forbidden and the ruling thereon is well known among the Muslims and the texts leave no room for doubt concerning it – such as pig meat, adultery and the like, concerning which there is no difference of scholarly opinion – is guilty of kufr.
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crayon
03-02-2008, 12:22 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
some even go so far as to say it is forbidden to work in a bank.
I don't know anything about whether it's all types of interest are haram or not, but it is definitely forbidden to work in a bank that deals with interest. Even if you aren't involved with the actual interest, you're still supporting the bank which is doing something haram. It's like a muslim that doesn't drink alcohol working as a bar tender; they're not actually drinking the alcohol, but they are involved in promoting it.
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Uthman
03-02-2008, 12:41 PM
Aamirsaab,

Remember that Yusuf Ali has no formal Islamic education and therefore his commentary contains a lot of errors.

I'm not saying that he was wrong in this instance (I don't know), but just be wary!
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jd7
06-15-2008, 05:09 AM
Khayal, you have posted as I have always understood it to be.

JD7
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Faye
07-31-2008, 09:23 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
I don't know anything about whether it's all types of interest are haram or not, but it is definitely forbidden to work in a bank that deals with interest. Even if you aren't involved with the actual interest, you're still supporting the bank which is doing something haram. It's like a muslim that doesn't drink alcohol working as a bar tender; they're not actually drinking the alcohol, but they are involved in promoting it.
I have heard the view that if you work for a bank in a job that has nothing to do with the actual transactions - like as a car driver, or security gaurd - then that is fine.
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