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quirk
03-01-2008, 09:55 PM
the Qur'an says that sperm is produced between the spine and ribcage which is refuted by science:

"Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted-Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs," (Qur'an 86:5-7).

Could someone please explain how this can be true or what I am seeing wrong here.
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Mazhara
04-11-2008, 06:39 PM
Daafiq: One active participial Pushed into fluid that secretes..
خُلِقَ مِن مَّآءٍ دَافِقٍ:
Khulika mima_in da_fiq Yakhruju min bainis sulbi wat tara_ib
Perception and meanings; One active participial Pushed into seminal fluid.
کیا قرآن مجید نے انسان کی تخلیق کو اچھلتے پانی سے منسوب کیا ہے؟ نہیں
بِسمِ ٱلله الرَّحْمٰنِ الرَّحِيـمِ
Beginning is with the Personal Name of Allah, الرَّحْمٰنِ {Ar Rehman} Who is Most Merciful.
اللہ تعالیٰ کے نام الرحمٰن سےابتدا ہے جو سب سے زیادہ رحم کرتا ہے
http://haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Taf...%20emitted.htm
A movie/animation has been added showing the journey of the sperm inside the human male. Warning: The movie depicts the genitalia of male in a manner of a diagram/animation ordinarily presented to medical students therefore is perhaps not offensive but it certainly clarifies and elucidates the point and meanings of the verse discussed in the article.
In Urdu




Thanks for reading. If you agree and liked this Article, please tell and discuss with friends in pursuance of the only advice of Last Messenger {SAW}:
قُلۡ إِنَّمَآ أَعِظُكُم بِوَٲحِدَةٍۖ أَن تَقُومُواْ لِلَّهِ مَثۡنَىٰ وَفُرَٲدَىٰ ثُمَّ تَتَفَڪَّرُواْۚ
Say, "I {Muhammad} advise you people with one advice; that find time for Allah in two’s or individually and thereafter reflect to know the purpose of things" {Refer 34:46}
http://haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Taf.../videos/v1.swf
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Snowflake
04-11-2008, 07:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by quirk
the Qur'an says that sperm is produced between the spine and ribcage which is refuted by science:

"Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted-Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs," (Qur'an 86:5-7).

Could someone please explain how this can be true or what I am seeing wrong here.
The Qur'an mentions in Surah Al-Tariq (chapter no. 86), verses 5-7; (86: 5-7)

"Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted proceeding from between the back bone and the ribs".

In embryonic stages, the reproductive organs of the male and female, ie. the testicles and the ovaries, begin their development near the kidney exactly between the spinal column and the eleventh and twelfth ribs. Later they descend; the female gonads (ovaries) stop in the pelvis while the male gonads continue their decent before birth to reach the scrotum outside the body through the inguinal canal. Even after the embryonic stage after the decent of the reproductive organ, these organs receive their nerve supply and blood supply (from the Aorta) and lymphatic drainage which is in the area between the backbone (spinal column) and the ribs

http://www.islamicvoice.com/january.97/scie.htm#CREA
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Mazhara
04-11-2008, 08:48 PM
Assalamo Alaikum,

Sorry Sister,

Whatever is stated have no relevance to the verses quoted. There is no mention of "drop emitted". There is mention of only one pushed into the "water" that secretes from.....
"Created him from one active participial pushed into water which secretes/discharges from between the backbone and ribs" {Refer 86:06-07}
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FatimaAsSideqah
04-11-2008, 09:00 PM
As Salaam Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

Al-Tariq 86: 6 -7 may be translated into simple English as:

Man should consider what it is that he has been created from. He is created from water (fluid) spurting forth, emanating from a place between the (lower) back and the (lower) ribs.

The latter part of this verse, i.e. "emanating from a place between the (lower) back and the (lower) ribs", has generally been taken to imply the part of the abdomen that lies between these points. In Figure 1, this part has been roughly marked by the triangle ABC. This implication, obviously, has led the Muslims to believe that the sperm itself or its basic ingredients are made within the (roughly) marked area. I, being a novice in the related fields, asked a few of my doctor friends about the making of the male sperm and the supply of its ingredients to the ultimate place of its making. In response, among a few other things, I was told that although the male sperm is formed in the testes, yet the blood supply which, obviously, is integral to the making of the sperm comes from between the ribs and the back. I was also told by one of my doctor friends that the cells that form the sperm originate from between the ribs and the back. If this is true, then the words of the Qur'an are not scientifically incorrect, as the words "emanating from a place between the (lower) back and the (lower) ribs", do not necessarily imply "emanating in its final shape" only, but can also cover "initial emanation".

However, predictable as it was, the explanation that my doctor friends provided was completely Greek to me. After giving close thought to this medical explanation, the following questions came to my mind: Why has the Qur'an referred to the biological origin of the sperm? Is it only to inform the Arabs about the basic origin of the sperm (or its blood supply or cell supply)? How does this origin support any of the Qur'anic points? What difference would it make on the message of the Qur'an, if the origin of the sperm was 'between the ribs and the back', or if it was between, for instance, 'the neck and the chest'? These questions forced me to adopt a more common sense based approach to understanding the verses.

As far as the context of the verses is concerned, it is visibly clear that the verses under consideration are actually a response to the doubts, regarding the possibility of the promised resurrection, expressed by the rejecters. When the Prophet (pbuh) told people that after they die, they shall be raised again and shall then have to face the consequences (good as well as bad) of their deeds that they do during the life of this world, they would normally, arrogantly turn away from the sincere admonitions of the Prophet (pbuh) rejecting the whole idea of resurrection and the life hereafter as impossible. In response to the call of the Prophet (pbuh), they would normally say that how can man be brought back to life after he has become dust and bones. In the verses under consideration, besides a number of other instances, the Qur'an has, generally, responded to this doubt expressed by the rejecters, regarding the possibility of the Day of Judgment, in such a way that it not only answers the question regarding the possibility of resurrection but also entails an eloquent ridicule on the arrogance of the rejecters in turning away from the call of the Prophet (pbuh). In this response, the Qur'an has pointed out the fact that if it was possible for God to create man from a drop of emitted fluid, then why would it suddenly become difficult for Him to recreate man after his death? In this response of the Qur'an, man is also reminded of the fact that he did not originate from a material of high rank and grandeur but from a drop of 'despicable' fluid, a drop of 'semen' and a drop of 'sperm'. Arrogance and haughtiness do not suit a creation that has actually originated from such lowly and despicable material.

A close look at the verse under consideration shall show that the implication of the verse under consideration is also the same as explained above. The Qur'an (Al-Tariq 86: 6 - 8) says:

Man should consider what it is that he has been created from. He is created from water (fluid) spurting forth, emanating from a place between the (lower) back and the (lower) ribs. Indeed He [i.e. God] is fully capable of returning him [to life].
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barney
04-11-2008, 10:17 PM
In my opinion, thats the most creative way ive seen an alleged discrepency dealt with.
Props and nuff 'spect to the dude who decided on that.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
04-12-2008, 06:43 AM
:sl:

There are numerous explanations given for the verse in question. One has preceded, but a more likely interpretation given the precise linguistic definitions of the terms has been quoted here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/565501-post2.html

:w:
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medlink student
04-12-2008, 02:01 PM
:sl:

If one reads the context of the Surah they will realize that the Qur'an is alluding to God's power. It refutes any deniers of a hereafter by stating that surely if God can create man from mere sperm in fluid then He can bring people back to life. Think about how amazing it is that we were that little insignificant thing that grow into this full grown, thinking, creating, loving etc... person. If seen in this light, you will quickly realize the point of the Qur'an in mentioning the fluid.

As to the reason why the Qur'an refers to the backbone and ribs it's simply because it is referring to the organ fromwhere the fluids come out.

For more on this matter please read:

http://www.understanding-islam.com/r...estion&qid=100

1. As Dr. Zakir Naik writes:
In embryonic stages, the reproductive organs of the male and female, ie. the testicles and the ovaries, begin their development near the kidney exactly between the spinal column and the eleventh and twelfth ribs. Later they descend; the female gonads (ovaries) stop in the pelvis while the male gonads continue their decent before birth to reach the scrotum outside the body through the inguinal canal. Even after the embryonic stage after the decent of the reproductive organ, these organs receive their nerve supply and blood supply (from the Aorta) and lymphatic drainage which is in the area between the backbone (spinal column) and the ribs
2. As Moiz Amjad writes:
although the male sperm is formed in the testes, yet the blood supply which, obviously, is integral to the making of the sperm comes from between the ribs and the back...the cells that form the sperm originate from between the ribs and the back. If this is true, then the words of the Qur'an are not scientifically incorrect, as the words "emanating from a place between the (lower) back and the (lower) ribs", do not necessarily imply "emanating in its final shape" only, but can also cover "initial emanation".
3. He also gives a third response:
As shown in Figure 2, if we were to join the sulb (i.e. the back) and the taraayib (i.e. the ribs), by means of an external line, it would pass through our lower abdomen, to our hips, to the testes, to the sex organ on to our groin, and then join our ribs.
Figure 2



The line would roughly look like the red curve ABCD. Obviously, the ultimate point of emanation of the male sperm lies within the points A and D. This, in my opinion, is what the statement "Yakhrujo min bayen al-Sulb Wa al-Taraayib" (i.e. 'which emanates from a place between the back and the ribs') means. The meaning and the implication of the verse, as well as the message entailed in it, was as clear to the unlettered Arabs as it is for the scientists of the modern day. If seen in the light of this explanation, it would be clear that the verse does not refer to any scientific reality, but to an obvious physical reality. Thus, the very objection of a scientific error, in this case, is misplaced.

Nevertheless, a few questions may arise in one's mind regarding the above explanation.

Firstly, one may ask why has the Qur'an used the phrase 'between the back and the ribs' and, thereby, created confusion regarding the implication of the verse. The Qur'an, on the contrary, could have saved us from all confusion simply by naming the organ from which semen spurts out. Furthermore, one may also ask whether such usage of the phrase 'bayena shayin wa shayin' (i.e. 'between one thing and another') as it has been interpreted in the above explanation, is supported in the Arabic language or not.

As far as the first question is concerned, it is obvious that the Qur'an, as any decent and sober literature would do, has only avoided direct reference (in words) to the male sexual organ. Through the words that it has used, the Qur'an has made a complete euphemistic reference to the point of emanation of the sperm, while successfully avoiding naming it. Naming it would definitely have negatively affected the literary value of the Qur'an. As far as the objection that the euphemistic style of the Qur'an, in this case, has negatively affected the clarity of the message and has resulted in confusion regarding the implication of the verse is concerned, in my opinion, it seems quite out of place. The mere fact that the previous verse had referred to 'the fluid gushing forth' (semen), which is followed by the words 'which emanates from...', brings to mind the source of the 'gushing forth' of the fluid, without much difficulty. Furthermore, one should not forget that even if the male sperm was actually formed within the two stipulated points, the mention of this source of formation of the male sperm had absolutely no pertinence with the message of the Qur'an and the information would have been of absolutely no relevance to the Arabs of old - the direct addressees of the Qur'an. The mere realization of the point that the Qur'an does not refer to any such information, even if it is true, that has no relevance to its basic message, guides one to the simple physical (non-scientific and uncomplicated) interpretation of the verse under consideration.
4. Muhammad Asad provides the fourth response in his translation of the verse:
issuing from between the loins [of man] and the pelvic arch [of woman].*
* The plural noun tara'ib, rendered by me as "pelvic arch", has also the meaning of "ribs" or "arch of bones"; according to most of the authorities who have specialized in the etymology of rare Quranic expressions this term relates specifically to female anatomy (Taj al-'Arus).
Similarly, Shaykh Abdul Wahhab At-Turayri's Fatwa Committe writes:
...the words translated as “backbone” (sulb) and “ribs” (tarâ’ib) are not understood in Arabic to belong to the same person. Arabs understand the “sulb” to refer to a part of the male body and the “tarâ’ib” to a part of the female. Ibn Kathîr states: “It refers to the ‘sulb’ of the man and the ‘tarâ’ib’ of the woman, which is the area of her chest.” He then quotes this interpretation on the authority of the Prophet’s companion Ibn `Abbâs. This same understanding is given in all the major classical works of Qur’anic commentary.

Moreover, the word “sulb” should not necessarily be translated as “backbone”. This word has many possible meanings and backbone is only one of them. It is also quite commonly used to mean the loins of a man. This is how it is used elsewhere in the Qur’ân. Allah says: “Prohibited to you (for marriage) are…wives of your sons proceeding from your loins (aslâb, the plural of sulb).” [Sûrah al-Nisâ’: 23] There can be no problem with sperm coming out from the area of a man's loins.

Likewise, when we look at the word being translated as “ribs” (tarâ’ib, the plural of tarîbah) we find that it is used linguistically for the general are of the chest and the abdomen. In al-Qâmûs, the famous classical dictionary of al-Fayrûzabâdî it is defined as a number of things: “the bones of the chest or what comes after the two collarbones or what comes between the collarbones and the chest or the four ribs to the right of the chest or the four ribs to the left of the chest or the hands, eyes and feet or the collarbones.” Some Companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and some Successors had also provided many possible meanings, like the lower ribs and al-Dahhâk’s statement that it is the area between the breasts and feet and the eyes (a mere indication of centrality).

This word clearly has a very broad and diverse definition. It is so ambiguous a word that the Companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) could not give it a precise definition. Scholars of Qur’ânic commentary have consistently admitted to there being at least three different possible meanings for this word as it is used in the verse. This is an admission that they do not know for certain what the tarâ’ib are, except that they generally agree it refers to an area of the woman’s body. It can apply to any region nearing the ribcage. Therefore, the area of the ovaries, the fallopian tubes, or the uterus can easily fit into the general area that is being indicated by these verses.
That should be sufficient.


Quote:
And the hadiths reflect such errors too, like the the three stages of 40 days in which the embryo is semen, alaqa and mudgah.

There is nothing unscientific about this hadith as Dr. Omar Abdel Rahman comments:
This Hadith indicates that the Nutfah, 'Alaqah and Mudghah stages are completed before 42 days. Further, the bones stage which follows the Mudghah (Ayah 14, Al-Mu'minun) is now stated to occur after 42 days according to this Hadith. If the interpretation of the first Hadith is correct this will mean that the bones appear after 120 days. The Hadith used the phrase "like that" which can be interpreted as a repetition of the time period or as a repetition of the completion of form in each of the stages of 'Alaqah and Mudghah. Thus the phrase is "Mujmal" general; but in the second Hadith it is explicitly (Mubayyan) stated that the bones start to differentiate after 42 days. The rule followed by Muslim scholars Interprets the "Mujmal" in the light of "Mubayyan" which clarifies the generalisation and gives the specific meaning and intention of the speaker.

As early as 651 A.H. Ibn Azzamlakani had reached the conclusion that the stages of 'Alaqah and Mudghah were completed during the first forty days:

Ibn Azzamlakani states: "Then he becomes 'Alaqah like that" meaning that in the 40 days mentioned the conceptus will be 'Alaqah which is completely and perfectly formed within the perfection which is possible for it. Thus they are equal in completion in its generality and not in particularities. "Then he becomes Mudghah like that" i.e. in its own share of the 40days also completely formed as the complete human being is perfectly formed.
:w:
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