/* */

PDA

View Full Version : Evolution Test!



Pages : 1 [2]

KooKoo
06-26-2009, 01:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by TKTony
^^^^ no they dont, and darwins theory is being disprived dailly, even prominant evolutionists are saying that evo is beyond the realms of possibility almost. There is no way that dna can transmutate and a spescies become of a different species. Its akin to the belief that frogs are made from river mud, this belief is not so long outdated. All darwins theories were based on observations and no proof has ever been bought forward to aid his ideas, since then we have discovered genetics and therefore itis even more damaging to his theory, darwin even wrote a book called the problems with evo, the more that science advances the less likely it looks that his theory could ever work. Eno and the origins of life fall flat with every scientific discovery, life can only come from life, "IT IS HE WHO BRINGS OUT THE LIVING FROM THE DEAD, AND BRINGS OUT THE DEAD FROM THE LIVING." [I] The only reason that evo is still clung to as a belief by ppl is so that they can exclude the possibility of a Creator with at least some semblance of rationality, yet how can matter exist and function alone, consciosness and life has to be of God, ok there is a train of thought that says maybe this is still not right and just coz we exist doesnt point to a Creator, I say it does and that the evidence is so obvious any further conjecture is simply blinding oneself to that evidence. Evo as a theory has only really been so prolonged thru scientific propaganda. False pictures of missing links, Marxs input for material gain and outright lies like piltdowns skull.
Surat al infitar, 6-8 "O man! What has deluded you in respect of your Noble Lord? He who created you and formed you and proportioned you and assembled you in whatever way He willed."
:rollseyes
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
Tony
06-26-2009, 01:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KooKoo
:rollseyes
whats the problem dont you like cold hard facts
Reply

KooKoo
06-26-2009, 01:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by TKTony
whats the problem dont you like cold hard facts
"Scientific propaganda"

:rollseyes
Reply

Tony
06-26-2009, 01:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KooKoo
"Scientific propaganda"

:rollseyes
lol, with respect kookoo thats what it is, not trying to start an argument but its correct and I can bring many more instances of this scientific propaganda if you like. no need to roll ur eyes, but dispute it if u like. Peace and respect
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
KooKoo
06-26-2009, 01:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by TKTony
lol, with respect kookoo thats what it is, not trying to start an argument but its correct and I can bring many more instances of this scientific propaganda if you like. no need to roll ur eyes, but dispute it if u like. Peace and respect
Then please do so. What can i say, I love the emotion! :rollseyes:rollseyes:rollseyes
Reply

Tony
06-26-2009, 01:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KooKoo
Then please do so. What can i say, I love the emotion! :rollseyes:rollseyes:rollseyes
hahaha, ok then. i have to go get kids from school but when I return I will post some of the propaganda.:D:D:D:D:D
Reply

GuestFellow
06-26-2009, 03:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Addie
May I ask whether you have studied evolution? There isnt as much evidence as you seem to believe. This is why it is still classed as the theory of evolution.
No that is incorrect. A scientific theory means, an explanation or model based on observation, experimentation, and reasoning, especially one that has been tested and confirmed as a general principle helping to explain and predict natural phenomena.

For example theory of gravity.

On to the topic: I do not know much about evolution. I only studied the basics. I just know it is another scientific principle that is used to explain something and there is a lot of evidence for it.

I personally believe Allah created the Universe and all life.

Peace.
Reply

czgibson
06-27-2009, 12:02 AM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by TKTony
^^^^ no they dont, and darwins theory is being disprived dailly, even prominant evolutionists are saying that evo is beyond the realms of possibility almost.
Name two.

All darwins theories were based on observations and no proof has ever been bought forward to aid his ideas, since then we have discovered genetics and therefore itis even more damaging to his theory,
"Therefore"? What do you mean, "therefore"?

darwin even wrote a book called the problems with evo,
Where is this book? Do you claim to have read it, if it even exists?

The only reason that evo is still clung to as a belief by ppl is so that they can exclude the possibility of a Creator with at least some semblance of rationality,
Many people believe in evolution and god. They can be found in many of the evolution threads on the forum.

yet how can matter exist and function alone, consciosness and life has to be of God, ok there is a train of thought that says maybe this is still not right and just coz we exist doesnt point to a Creator, I say it does and that the evidence is so obvious any further conjecture is simply blinding oneself to that evidence.
Your evidence here is basically "I say it does".

Evo as a theory has only really been so prolonged thru scientific propaganda.
The majority of scientists would happily change their minds if the evidence pointed that way. What evidence could possibly change your mind?

Peace
Reply

جوري
06-27-2009, 01:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


Name two.


Greetings,

I won't steal Tony's thunder, but can name two scientists who have written books that disagree with the Darwinian brand of evolution.



On Growth and form by Dr. Thompson, and recently Dr.Dermott Mullan, Probabilities of randomly assembling a primitive cell on Earth ..


all the best
Reply

AntiKarateKid
06-27-2009, 04:10 AM
Meh. Science is the observation of Allah's creation and helps eliminate falsehood. I believe it will ultimately prove Islam, as shown in the signs in the universe and the Quran.

If evolution doesn't fit is Islam and is correct, then soon, with more discoveries it will fit Islam. If it is incorrect it will never fit Islam.

For thousands of years astronomers believed in geocentricism and people accepted the flat earth theory. Now people have disproved that. We may see if evolution stands the test of time.

In the meantime however, I find the origins of reality and the universe far more interesting. Infinite regression is hoot with atheists.
Reply

Tony
06-27-2009, 10:16 AM
peace
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


Name two.

Alan Feduccia, university of North Carolina. Derek Ager. Stanley Miller. Francis Crick (Crick and Watson the discoverers of DNA). Leslie Orgel. Alexander Oparin. Ali Demirsoy. pROFF. jEREMY bADA etc)

"Therefore"? What do you mean, "therefore"?

• adverb for that reason; consequently, Oxford dictionary

Where is this book? Do you claim to have read it, if it even exists?

My mistake sorry. The reference is to a chapter in the Origin of the Species. 1859. 3 years after original in 1856. A chapter named Difficulties on Theory. I havent read it cover to cover, but have skimmed it and used it in biology papers for quotes.

Many people believe in evolution and god. They can be found in many of the evolution threads on the forum.

Thats their perogative, but considering we cannot even understand the origin of Dna, how can it be possible that we believe it can mutate in such a fashion that it produces new species. Those that beleive in evolution and the Creator are hedging their bets so to speak, there is no detraction from the Almighty, though there is still no evidence whatsoever. While I would never condemn anyone for beleiving in evolution, I personally find the theory extraordinary. In that its a genius invention but nonetheless there is no proof.

Your evidence here is basically "I say it does".

Well I am sorry my words arenot always adequate to articulate where I am trying to take a debate, this point is a matter of beleif. I believe that matter cannot exist without life, life is consciousness(in part) consciousness in my veiw has to be from a Creator. This is something that I feel and believe and not something that is easily quantifiable, more a ebd product of deductive reasoning on my part.

The majority of scientists would happily change their minds if the evidence pointed that way. What evidence could possibly change your mind?


There is none, or you would have brought it forward so the question is mute.

Peace

Much peace and respect CZGibson. I just re read my post !! I can only apologise for the sloppy presentation, hope you will forgive my inadequacies using technology, and not let it dter you from furthering this discussion. In short, Im crap at computers.
Reply

Trumble
06-27-2009, 11:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I won't steal Tony's thunder, but can name two scientists who have written books that disagree with the Darwinian brand of evolution.
You haven't, but could you if you wanted to? The challenge was to produce suitable comments from two "prominent evolutionists" (or, presumably former prominent evolutionists) to the effect that evolution is 'almost beyond the bounds of possibility' ... with perhaps an implied assumption they haven't been dead for sixty years!

Thompson was a biologist who never was an evolutionist (the book was written over 90 years ago) and Mullen is an astronomer.

0/2.
Reply

جوري
06-27-2009, 06:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
You haven't, but could you if you wanted to? The challenge was to produce suitable comments from two "prominent evolutionists" (or, presumably former prominent evolutionists) to the effect that evolution is 'almost beyond the bounds of possibility' ... with perhaps an implied assumption they haven't been dead for sixty years!

Thompson was a biologist who never was an evolutionist (the book was written over 90 years ago) and Mullen is an astronomer.

0/2.

You are either in favor of or opposed to based on your research, but you can't be in favor of and write against it, your request here would then be flawed! It is a 60 year old book as viable as ever today, have you actually read it? or you'd prefer 200 year old unchallenged theories? evolution deals with biology & genetics (a fairly modern field as we can actually put a name on the mutations that have allegedly led to evolution) so I am not sure what your point is? but I guarantee both scientists have had more schooling and discuss science with more relevance than Darwin, if we are going to go by 'timing' alone.

Also what is the name of that fallacy when you attack the scientist rather than challenge their work as unscientific? I actually expected better from you!

all the best
Reply

GuestFellow
06-27-2009, 08:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
You haven't, but could you if you wanted to? The challenge was to produce suitable comments from two "prominent evolutionists" (or, presumably former prominent evolutionists) to the effect that evolution is 'almost beyond the bounds of possibility' ... with perhaps an implied assumption they haven't been dead for sixty years!

Thompson was a biologist who never was an evolutionist (the book was written over 90 years ago) and Mullen is an astronomer.

0/2.
You were quick to dismiss the evidence despite not reading it or having any knowledge on it. Darwin published his book in 1859 and people take his work seriously.

You have so much faith in his theory, why not read or find information about that book that critique Darwin's work? I'm sure you will be able to find flaws within it since your so confident in Darwin’s theory. : )
Reply

Hamayun
06-27-2009, 10:32 PM
Whats the big deal?

If evolution exists it only proves that living things change over time....

It doesn't disprove the creation of all things living and non living in this universe...

Peace
Reply

جوري
06-27-2009, 10:35 PM
changing to adapt is certain and provable.. changing to become a different specie isn't so certain or so provable!

:w:
Reply

Hamayun
06-27-2009, 10:42 PM
I agree sister Skye.

I think I might start a new thread relating to Evolution of trees.... :D
Reply

czgibson
06-28-2009, 06:30 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Greetings,

I won't steal Tony's thunder, but can name two scientists who have written books that disagree with the Darwinian brand of evolution.

On Growth and form by Dr. Thompson, and recently Dr.Dermott Mullan, Probabilities of randomly assembling a primitive cell on Earth ..


all the best
Neither of those fit the description given by Tony as:

prominant evolutionists ... saying that evo is beyond the realms of possibility almost.
format_quote Originally Posted by TKTony
Alan Feduccia, university of North Carolina.
This is one of the world's experts on the evolution of birds. Are you claiming that he doesn't believe in evolution or something?
Derek Ager. Stanley Miller. Francis Crick (Crick and Watson the discoverers of DNA). Leslie Orgel. Alexander Oparin. Ali Demirsoy.
The fact that these scientists have raised criticisms to do with details of evolutionary theory hasn't led any of them to abandon their acceptance of evolution as a fact, and it shouldn't lead anyone else to that conclusion either.

You've clearly just found this list on a creationist website.

I have no idea who this guy is:

pROFF. jEREMY bADA
adverb for that reason; consequently, Oxford dictionary
Believe it or not, I already knew the dictionary definition of the word 'therefore'.

Take another look at what you wrote:

All darwins theories were based on observations and no proof has ever been bought forward to aid his ideas, since then we have discovered genetics and therefore itis even more damaging to his theory,
Can you see how your use of 'therefore' isn't actually validated by the dictionary definition you've given?

It's like someone saying "All green things are healthy and therefore I don't like thermometers". Just a complete non-sequitur.

The rest of your post depends on your prior beliefs. There's nothing wrong with having beliefs, but it's good to have at least some convincing reasons for them.

Also, saying no evidence could possibly change your mind is a very risky strategy. You don't know what evidence may come your way in the future and closing your mind to any other possibility is just an abdication of your intelligence.

Peace
Reply

جوري
06-28-2009, 06:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


Neither of those fit the description given by Tony as:
You haven't read the works of either.. and I hazard say, no one does research with that literal 'Abstract' as their specific example!
the gist of both works is just that!

all the best
Reply

czgibson
06-28-2009, 06:54 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
You haven't read the works of either.. and I hazard say, no one does research with that literal 'Abstract' as their specific example!
the gist of both works is just that!

all the best
Whatever you say...

Peace
Reply

جوري
06-28-2009, 06:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


Whatever you say...

Peace
If you want to challenge the content of their work with something more concrete than 'whatever you say' I'd be more than glad to hear it!

all the best
Reply

Tony
06-28-2009, 07:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


Neither of those fit the description given by Tony as:





This is one of the world's experts on the evolution of birds. Are you claiming that he doesn't believe in evolution or something?

"Ive studued birds for 25 years and I dont see any similarities whatsoever. I just dont see it... The therapod (a group of dinosuars) origins of birds, in my opinion, will be the greatest embarrasement of paleontology". Pat Shipman "Birds do it.... did dinosuars", New scientist 1 feb 1997, p 28

The fact that these scientists have raised criticisms to do with details of evolutionary theory hasn't led any of them to abandon their acceptance of evolution as a fact, and it shouldn't lead anyone else to that conclusion either.

I dont remember saying that they had abandoned their fields did I ?

You've clearly just found this list on a creationist website.

Nope, believe it or not some people still use books to study, and even if I had found it on a website are really trying to say that the info is any less credible just becuase you are trying to put me down to belittle the point I am making. What I have posted is knowledge and beleive me there are many more names and quotes I could add tp the list.

I have no idea who this guy is:

Proff Jefferey Bada"Origins", Earth, Feb 1998, pg 40. Molecular level defender of evolution theory. "Today as we leave the twentieth century, we still face the biggest unsolved problem that we had when we entered the twentieth century. How did life originate on earth.?"



Believe it or not, I already knew the dictionary definition of the word 'therefore'.

Take another look at what you wrote:

ok I have to admit this was unnescessary, but your question relating to the use of the word therefore also was unnescessary.

Can you see how your use of 'therefore' isn't actually validated by the dictionary definition you've given?

Well thanks for the correctionon a literary level, not my strong point, along with debating but when I feel something is right I have to tryand articulate to the best of my ability

It's like someone saying "All green things are healthy and therefore I don't like thermometers". Just a complete non-sequitur.



The rest of your post depends on your prior beliefs. There's nothing wrong with having beliefs, but it's good to have at least some convincing reasons for them.

my reasons for belief are deep and wide, if I really thought you wanted to hear them I would post, but suffice to saythat my beliefs are so solid I pray 5 times daily, I fast, I bring my children up within the belief system and amongst other things I have no fear of death. Does this sound as though I am unconvinced and that I came to Islam withiut convincing reasons ?

Also, saying no evidence could possibly change your mind is a very risky strategy. You don't know what evidence may come your way in the future and closing your mind to any other possibility is just an abdication of your intelligence.

I have been and done so many things in this life your teeth would curl if you knew, this is where it lead me, I have not abdicated from my intelligence have all the evidence I need to recognise the truth, I am not saying its all easy, but then that would mean I am brainwashed anyway, I choose to serve my Creator and follow Rasulullahs (pbuh) teachings becuase I absolutely believe it to be the truth, why should I expect to be swayed by any further evidence, its not coming.I understand this is difficult for you to ubderstand and fair enough, its what I believe and its all I will ever need

Peace
Peace and respect
Reply

Muhaba
06-28-2009, 11:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
I have agreed that the evolutionary process can explain the development of antibiotic resistant bacteria, herbicide resistant weeds, insecticide resistant insects, new species of goatsbeard, etc. In these cases, I don't have an issue with evolution as being random, or "undirected by a Higher Being". I can understand this process in those terms, but I can't understand the process by which a unicellular common ancestor gave rise to all plant, animal, fungal, bacterial species that are orders of magnitude more complex.
From what i understand regarding this is that there have to be diseases, etc in the world as a test from Allah, so Allah allows these things to evolve. One should ask why bacteria, weeds, and insects evolve to resist man-made chemicals that aim to kill them. It may also be that these things (bacteria, weeds, insects, etc) are necessary for the world to be a certain way, since it is proven scientifically that the elimination of one species can affect all the species in an ecosystem. So Allah enables them to evolve to resist extinction because their extinction would affect the whole ecosystem. One must remember that nothing happens without Allah's permission, so it's not true that this evolution is random or undirected by a Higher Being. In time, science may prove that bacteria, weeds, insects etc which the chemicals fail to eliminate because of the resistance they develop are in fact very necessay for the world to be a certain way. It's already proven that the universe has a certain order.

One must ask why plants, insects, etc don't evolve to stop other animals from eating them? And why don't they evolve to keep from dying? If they can evolve to resist man-made chemicals, then they should also have been able to evolve to resist being eaten by other animals.

As for the plant goatsbeard, although i'm not an expert on this, i think its "evolution" can be explained simply. First of all, humans introduced new species; they didn't come into being by themselves. Then the new type of plant must have crosspollinated with other plants in its species (both with the newly introduced plant type as well as those naturally present). Since genes take some chromosomes from the two plants (for example aadd or AAdd) the next generation would have chromosomes both from the naturally present plant as well as the one introduced by humans. it may be that the genes from the naturally present plant were dominant so the next generation of the plant received dominant triats and ceased to be sterile.


If the goatsbeard plant which was introduced by humans and which was sterile had only been allowed to crosspollinate (in a greenhouse, not in the open) with its own kind (that is, those introduced by humans) and still over years they evolved and ceased to be sterile, then one could say it was a result of evolution. But even still that doesn't rule out that a Higher Bieng was controlling the process.

SO none of these examples really prove random evolution without the control of a Higher Being (that is God).

Note: I am not an expert on this topic (that is, genes, crosspollination, goatsbeard species, etc). what i wrote was based on my understanding of previous posts and what i remember from high school biology class.
Reply

Muhaba
06-28-2009, 11:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dr.Trax
MEDIA: FERTILE GROUND FOR EVOLUTION
It is easy to influence the man on the street with the package of "science". You draw an imaginary picture representing transfer from water to land, you invent Latin words for the animal in the water, its "descendant" on land, and the "transitional intermediary form" (which is an imaginary animal), and then fabricate an elaborate lie: "Eusthenopteron transformed first into Rhipitistian Crossoptergian, then Ichthyostega in a long evolutionary process". If you put these words in the mouth of a scientist with thick glasses and a white coat, you would succeed in convincing many people, because the media, which dedicates itself to promoting evolution, would announce the good news to the world with great enthusiasm.
true. so are there any fossils of such transitional intermediary forms of animals?
Reply

Azy
06-30-2009, 02:16 PM
Only every fossil ever discovered.
Reply

Gator
06-30-2009, 03:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by TKTony
Proff Jefferey Bada"Origins", Earth, Feb 1998, pg 40. Molecular level defender of evolution theory. "Today as we leave the twentieth century, we still face the biggest unsolved problem that we had when we entered the twentieth century. How did life originate on earth.?"

Peace and respect
A lot has happened since the late 90's.


New Glimpses of Life’s Puzzling Origins

By NICHOLAS WADE
Published: June 15, 2009
link: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/16/sc...%20life&st=cse


Some 3.9 billion years ago, a shift in the orbit of the Sun’s outer planets sent a surge of large comets and asteroids careening into the inner solar system. Their violent impacts gouged out the large craters still visible on the Moon’s face, heated Earth’s surface into molten rock and boiled off its oceans into an incandescent mist.
.........

In the last few years, however, four surprising advances have renewed confidence that a terrestrial explanation for life’s origins will eventually emerge.

One is a series of discoveries about the cell-like structures that could have formed naturally from fatty chemicals likely to have been present on the primitive Earth.......
Reply

barrio79
07-05-2009, 08:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Meh. Science is the observation of Allah's creation and helps eliminate falsehood. I believe it will ultimately prove Islam, as shown in the signs in the universe and the Quran.

If evolution doesn't fit is Islam and is correct, then soon, with more discoveries it will fit Islam. If it is incorrect it will never fit Islam.

For thousands of years astronomers believed in geocentricism and people accepted the flat earth theory. Now people have disproved that. We may see if evolution stands the test of time.

In the meantime however, I find the origins of reality and the universe far more interesting. Infinite regression is hoot with atheists.
It could not be very many thousands of years that astronomers believed in any thing as the world is only 4500 years old , to quote well known theists from Alabama and other well known spokespersons from the leading universities in the US
Reply

Tony
07-05-2009, 09:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by barrio79
It could not be very many thousands of years that astronomers believed in any thing as the world is only 4500 years old , to quote well known theists from Alabama and other well known spokespersons from the leading universities in the US
:laugh:
Reply

barrio79
07-05-2009, 09:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by TKTony
:laugh:
TKTony

You appear to be a Yorkshire Lad , in which case you should not be worrying about life or death but something a lot more serious , Can England win the Ashes some time ( soon or whenever )
Reply

Tony
07-05-2009, 10:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by barrio79
TKTony

You appear to be a Yorkshire Lad , in which case you should not be worrying about life or death but something a lot more serious , Can England win the Ashes some time ( soon or whenever )
lol. u might be right Barrio:D
Reply

ژاله
07-22-2009, 07:13 AM
A suggestion to evolutionists,atheists,and to even muslims who dont believe in creation
theres gona be an interview with harun yahya @ islamicboard radio,you can post your questions there,he can answer them better than any of us on the forums.and i can assure you it will be worth it.this is his speciality...you can post your questions here
http://www.islamicboard.com/islamicb...5-07-09-a.html
you can visit his website and read free online material here
www.harunyahya.com
Reply

Somaiyah
08-11-2009, 02:06 PM
Salam,
No I do not believe in the evolutation. I feel that wouldn't make me a Muslim if I did.
Reply

czgibson
08-11-2009, 03:26 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by J Aaliyah
Salam,
No I do not believe in the evolutation. I feel that wouldn't make me a Muslim if I did.
In that case, it might be worth your while reading this:

Biological Evolution - An Islamic Perspective

Peace
Reply

barrio79
08-13-2009, 12:58 AM
Featured Books



Why Evolution Is True

Jerry A. Coyne

Book Description

Among the wonders that science has uncovered about the universe, no subject has sparked more fascination and fury than evolution. In all the current highly publicized debates about creationism and its descendant "intelligent design," there is an element of the controversy that is rarely mentioned--the evidence, the empirical truth of evolution by natural selection. Even Richard Dawkins and Stephen Jay Gould, while extolling the beauty of evolution and examining case studies, have not focused on the evidence itself. Yet the proof is vast, varied, and magnificent, drawn from many different fields of science. Scientists are observing species splitting into two and are finding more and more fossils capturing change in the past--dinosaurs that have sprouted feathers, fish that have grown limbs.

Why Evolution Is True weaves together the many threads of modern work in genetics, paleontology, geology, molecular biology, and anatomy that demonstrate the "indelible stamp" of the processes first proposed by Darwin. In crisp, lucid prose accessible to a wide audience, Why Evolution Is True dispels common misunderstandings and fears about evolution and clearly confirms that this amazing process of change has been firmly established as a scientific truth.

Why Evolution is True is a succinct and accessible exposition of the facts supporting Darwinian evolution.
Contents

Preface xi

Introduction xv

1. What is Evolution? 1

2. Written in the Rocks 20

3. Remnants: Vestiges, Embryos, and Bad Design 55

4. The Geography of Life 86

5. The Engine of Evolution 111

6. How Sex Drives Evolution 144

7. The Origin of the Species 168

8. What About Us? 190

9. Evolution Redux 221

Notes 235

Glossary 247

Suggestions for Further Reading 251

References 257

Illustration Credits 271

Index 273
Reply

جوري
08-13-2009, 01:11 AM
nice intro.. can you espouse genetics and molecular biology to make a case for macro evolution (not Mendeliantype genetics) and elucidate this mysterious speciation that has you at cockroach one day and then a rabbit the next! ... I don't feel like paying $64 for a book that is about poetic observation than actualized demonstrable science.
Reply

Rasema
08-23-2009, 02:14 AM
Assalamu Alikum

No,because I exsist.
Reply

CosmicPathos
09-03-2009, 11:25 PM
The question is very ambiguous. If the original poster defines evolution as the change in genetic frequency of a trait over time then I agree that it exists. BUT if the original poster defines evolution as the process which results in diversity of species from a common ancestor through mutation accumulation and natural selection working together then I do not accept it on scientific grounds. For the moment, I have voted No because I assume that the OP was asking if I believed in the latter definition.

From a scientific and experimental perspective, I have to see an experiment where one species changes into another purely on the basis of natural selection of genetic variation. I also await the scientific world to present to me the true transition forms and not pseudo-transitions forms. By transition forms, I mean to see fossils which highlight the graded changes in emergence of new species, for example from Great Apes to humans. Sometimes evolution, as the biologists say, is very quick and we might not have graded intermediates but what determines whether gradual changes will take place or quick jumps. As someone with training in the sciences, I would like to see evidence (genetic, anatomical, physiological, behavioral, immunological etc) to which clearly shows that natural selection and mutations were responsible for the emergence of Homo sapiens from its ancestors.

One supposed evidence is that of number of chromosomes in humans is 46 while in 3 families of chimps it is 48. So our ancestor had 48 and two chromosomes joined together to form 46 and gave humans. This is shown by testing the markers present on the joined-chromosome in question in humans and comparing them with the two separate chromosomes in the other species. I do not accept this sort of evidence as a proof that this event REALLY happened in historical domain. It is true that the chromosomal difference exists but is it true that it happened in reality by the virtue of mutation and natural selections? Moreover, I would like to see such a claim being test in the lab. I would like to see a monkey zygote with 48 chromsomes in which 2 chromosomes are joined together, just like how they are in humans, under controlled situation and see if that zygote develops in to a human baby or a monkey baby.
Reply

CosmicPathos
09-03-2009, 11:28 PM
For the experiment proposed, I will also give the leeway to make OTHER changes in genome of monkey zygote, which are unique to humans, in order for that altered zygote genome to fulfill all the requirements of developing into a human embryo.
Reply

JaffaCake
09-07-2009, 10:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Wa7abiScientist
From a scientific and experimental perspective, I have to see an experiment where one species changes into another purely on the basis of natural selection of genetic variation.
Dobzhansky T, Pavlovsky O. Experimentally created incipient species of Drosophila. Nature. 1971 Apr 2;230(5292):289–292.

format_quote Originally Posted by Wa7abiScientist
One supposed evidence is that of number of chromosomes in humans is 46 while in 3 families of chimps it is 48. So our ancestor had 48 and two chromosomes joined together to form 46 and gave humans. This is shown by testing the markers present on the joined-chromosome in question in humans and comparing them with the two separate chromosomes in the other species. I do not accept this sort of evidence as a proof that this event REALLY happened in historical domain.
How else would you reasonably explain it?
I'm sure you're aware that each chromosome has telomeres at the ends and a centromere somewhere near the middle. How do your views explain why that particular human chromosome looks almost identical to two chromosomes found in chimpanzees but fused together, complete with a group of telomeres in the middle and two centromeres?
Reply

جوري
09-07-2009, 05:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by JaffaCake
Dobzhansky T, Pavlovsky O. Experimentally created incipient species of Drosophila. Nature. 1971 Apr 2;230(5292):289–292.
& let me quote the article:
'species formation through doubling of the chromosomal hybrid is however, not the usual method of speciation'
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pag...20&pageindex=2

directly manipulating in an artificial environment can't be made akin to spontaneous generation... I have played around with Genomic fingerprinting using arbitrarily primed PCR to identify new polymorphisms in certain bacteria.. we still can't call that speciation!
How else would you reasonably explain it?
Explain what?

I'm sure you're aware that each chromosome has telomeres at the ends and a centromere somewhere near the middle. How do your views explain why that particular human chromosome looks almost identical to two chromosomes found in chimpanzees but fused together, complete with a group of telomeres in the middle and two centromeres?
What does a telomere at the end of a chromosome do exactly to enable the process of speciation? can you articulate that in simple words so that us Bedouins can grasp your worldly concepts?

all the best
Reply

JaffaCake
09-08-2009, 10:15 PM
Thanks for taking an interest but my questions were for the attention of Wa7abiScientist. :)
Reply

جوري
09-08-2009, 10:28 PM
not a problem at all (although it is a public forum and the private messaging system exists for duologues and even soliloquies away from the prying eyes of others). I'll leave the link above in case Wa7abi takes you up on your offer of ' experimental creation' and how it conduces 'speciation'

all the best
Reply

JaffaCake
09-09-2009, 12:10 AM
You make a fair point, it's a public forum. I just thought it might make for an easier 'flow' of conversation if it wasn't split several ways.
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
directly manipulating in an artificial environment can't be made akin to spontaneous generation...
Could you explain what you mean by 'directly manipulating'? It isn't the phrase I would have used to describe this so I'm curious about why you have.

In his earlier post about speciation Wa7abi specified only 'an experiment'. I can't see how an experiment involving flies and speciation could occur outside an artificial environment without losing some measure of control or integrity.
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Explain what?
What does a telomere at the end of a chromosome do exactly to enable the process of speciation? can you articulate that in simple words so that us Bedouins can grasp your worldly concepts?
The question put by Wa7abi is whether or not Human chromosome 2 is really a product of the fusion of two chromosomes in an ancestor species.

Human chromosome 2 is very similar to chimpanzee chromosomes 2a and 2b laid end to end.
Human chromosome 2 has the remains of telomeres in the middle of the chromosome, in the place they would be if 2a and 2b were fused.
Human chromosome 2 has a centromere in the same place as 2a, and the remains of a centromere in the place equivalent to the centromere of 2b



My question to Wa7abi was essentially "If you don't think chromosome fusion occurred, what explanation fits the evidence?"
Reply

جوري
09-09-2009, 01:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by JaffaCake
You make a fair point, it's a public forum. I just thought it might make for an easier 'flow' of conversation if it wasn't split several ways.
Indeed!
Could you explain what you mean by 'directly manipulating'? It isn't the phrase I would have used to describe this so I'm curious about why you have.
I don't think the term has more than one meaning.. to determine the existence of vs. your chosen 'Dobzhansky T, Pavlovsky O. Experimentally created'

In his earlier post about speciation Wa7abi specified only 'an experiment'. I can't see how an experiment involving flies and speciation could occur outside an artificial environment without losing some measure of control or integrity.
I wrote based on thread title not wa7abi's comments. You can't really concede that evolution/speciation occurs naturally and by the same breath introduce its paradox as means of its occurrence.
The question put by Wa7abi is whether or not Human chromosome 2 is really a product of the fusion of two chromosomes in an ancestor species.
We'll leave wa7abi to answer that, however, chromosomal fusion and or breaks or translocations as we know of today give us a state of disease not speciation a few examples as occurring in one sub-class, I'll choose PML as it is quite the expansive topic and I don't wish to cover each pathology that happens from fusion/break/translocation.

Molecular biology of acute promyelocytic leukemia

Authors
Wendy Stock, MD
Michael J Thirman, MD Section Editor
Richard A Larson, MD Deputy Editor
Rebecca F Connor, MD



Last literature review version 16.3: September 2008 | This topic last updated: June 9, 2008 (More)


INTRODUCTION — The cytogenetic hallmark of acute promyelocytic leukemia (APL), FAB-M3 in the French-American-British classification of acute myeloid leukemia (AML), is a translocation involving the retinoic acid receptor-alpha (RAR-alpha, RARa) locus on chromosome 17 [1] . The vast majority of these cases contain t(15;17)(q22;q11.12), although several variant translocations involving RARa have been identified, including t(11;17) and t(5;17) [2-4] . (See "Variant translocations" below). Distinguishing between these translocations is important because patients with the variant translocation t(11;17)(q23;q11.12) are almost invariably resistant to ATRA [2,3,5] . (See "Clinical manifestations, pathologic features, and diagnosis of acute promyelocytic leukemia in adults").

The molecular biology of APL will be discussed here. The molecular biology of acute myeloid leukemias other than APL and of ALL are discussed separately. (See "Pathobiology of acute myeloid leukemia" and see "Cytogenetics in acute lymphoblastic leukemia").

RETINOIC ACID AND THE RETINOIC ACID RECEPTOR — Retinoic acid is a critical ligand in the differentiation pathway of multiple tissues, mediated through binding to a retinoic acid receptor (RAR). RARs belong to the nuclear steroid/thyroid hormone receptor superfamily, and possess a modular structure with discrete ligand binding and DNA binding domains. Of the three isoforms of RARs, RARalpha (RARa) is expressed primarily in hematopoietic cells.

RARa is a member of a family of retinoid-binding transcription factors (including RXR) that regulate gene expression. RARa contains a series of discrete functional domains, including an amino terminal transcriptional activation domain, followed by DNA-binding, dimerization, and retinoid-binding domains. RARa heterodimerizes with retinoid X receptor (RXR), and binds to retinoic acid responsive elements to regulate transcription of target genes [5] .

In the absence of retinoic acid, RARa/RXR-alpha heterodimers interact with N-CoR (nuclear corepressor), a ubiquitous nuclear protein which mediates transcriptional repression [2,6] . Retinoic acid dissociates N-CoR from RARa/RXR-alpha, resulting in relief from transcriptional repression, presumably activating genes that lead to terminal differentiation of promyelocytes (show bone marrow 1A-1B) [6,7] .

The capacity of retinoids to induce myeloid differentiation was recognized prior to the identification of the involvement of RARa in APL. Retinoic acid had been shown to enhance the growth of normal myeloid progenitors, to induce differentiation of the HL-60 promyelocytic cell line, and to induce terminal differentiation of primary human APL cells cultured in vitro [8-10] . Subsequently, the use of all-trans retinoic acid (ATRA) was found to induce complete remissions in patients with APL. (See "Clinical manifestations, pathologic features, and diagnosis of acute promyelocytic leukemia in adults", section on Initial treatment).

Rather than inducing cell death from cytotoxicity, ATRA induces differentiation of the malignant promyelocytic clone, an effect which can be observed in vitro and in vivo [11-13] . The effect in retinoic acid-sensitive NB4 cells in vivo is complex [14] , with ATRA modulating 169 genes in one study [12] . Although complete remission can be obtained with ATRA alone, most patients will ultimately relapse without additional cytotoxic chemotherapy. The basis for development of ATRA resistance remains unclear, but this phenomenon suggests that additional genetic events might occur in APL cells that confer resistance. The use of arsenic trioxide has also been shown to induce remissions in APL, possibly by inducing the degradation of PML/RARa. (See "Clinical manifestations, pathologic features, and diagnosis of acute promyelocytic leukemia in adults", section on Arsenic trioxide).

T(15;17) THE USUAL TRANSLOCATION IN APL — The leukemic cells of approximately 92 percent of patients with APL have the balanced translocation t(15;17)(q22;q11.12) involving the retinoic acid receptor-alpha (RAR-alpha, RARa) gene on chromosome 17 and the PML gene on chromosome 15 [3,5] . An additional 5 percent do not have the classic t(15;17), but have the PML/RARalpha fusion gene, due to insertions or other complex chromosomal rearrangements [15] .

The PML gene — The ProMyelocytic Leukemia (PML) gene was first identified through its involvement with RARa in t(15;17) [16,17] . It is expressed ubiquitously, and multiple alternative splice variants have been isolated. The normal function of PML is not known, but overexpression of PML inhibits growth in cell lines, perhaps through the interferon-gamma signaling pathway [18] . Several studies have suggested the following properties for the gene [19-21] : It is critical for the proper localization of all other ND10-associated proteins under physiological conditions It encodes a growth- and tumour-suppresor protein that is essential for several apoptotic signals It acts as a transcriptional co-activator with p53, the tumor suppressor gene

The product of the PML gene is a nuclear protein that contains motifs suggestive of a role in control of RNA transcription, including two putative amino terminal DNA-binding domains and a potential dimerization domain. It is normally expressed in myeloid progenitors, and has been shown to localize to a discrete subnuclear compartment of unknown function, referred to as the nuclear body [22] .

The nuclear body is a novel nuclear structure referred to by several names, including PODs (PML oncogenic domains), or ND10 (nuclear domain 10) [22,23] . In APL cells, the integrity of the nuclear body is disrupted, and a microspeckled distribution of PML/RARa is observed. Treatment of APL cells with ATRA causes the nuclear bodies to be regenerated with proper relocalization of PML. Arsenic trioxide has also been found to target PML and PML/RARa to nuclear bodies and to induce their degradation [24] . Thus, restoration of nuclear body structures by either ATRA or arsenic trioxide correlates with the ability of these agents to induce remission of APL.

The fusion genes of t(15;17) — Two novel fusion genes are formed as a result of the t(15;17): a PML/RARa gene on the der(15) chromosome and an RARa/PML gene on the der(17) [16,17] . Whereas the PML/RARa fusion gene is found consistently in all cases of t(15;17), the reciprocal RARa/PML fusion can be detected in only 80 percent of cases [25] , due in some cases to loss of the der(17) chromosome. Although this suggests that the RARa/PML fusion may not be essential in the pathogenesis of APL, its expression has been postulated to represent a potential second genetic event contributing to the leukemic phenotype.

The resulting fusion gene on der(15) encodes a fusion protein in which the DNA-binding and dimerization domains of PML are fused to the DNA-binding and C-terminal portions of RAR-alpha, including the retinoid binding site. Breakpoints in RARa typically occur within intron 2, whereas breakpoints in PML are more heterogeneous, occurring within intron 3, intron 6, or exon 6, producing what has been called short, long, and variable forms [26,27] . The three different isoforms have somewhat different clinical characteristics; lack of sufficient numbers of patients with the less common variable form has made it difficult to determine whether the three isoforms have similar clinical outcomes [26-28] .

Mechanism of action of PML/RARa — The PML/RARa protein functions as an aberrant retinoid receptor that possesses altered DNA binding and transcriptional regulatory properties [29,30] . PML/RARa can heterodimerize with RXR and bind to retinoic acid responsive elements in target genes. Expression of PML/RARa blocks retinoic acid induced myeloid differentiation [31] .

In addition, PML/RARa can block RARa mediated transactivation in a dominant negative manner. This dominant negative effect on normal RARa mediated functions is supported by experiments where a dominant negative mutation of RARa was introduced into a murine hematopoietic cell line [32] . A block in differentiation along the neutrophil and monocytic lineages was observed, and a switch to the development of mast cells and basophils occurred.

Experiments in transgenic mice demonstrated that expression of PML/RARa in immature myeloid cells resulted in the development of a leukemia with promyelocytic features, thereby demonstrating the leukemogenic potential of the fusion protein [33] . Expression of a PML/RARa variant that is unable to activate transcription in response to retinoic acid also leads to leukemia; however, the leukemia does not differentiate in response to retinoic acid [34] . Several groups have generated transgenic mice expressing PML/RARa under the control of various myeloid-specific promoters. The phenotype in these mice depended on the stage of myeloid differentiation where the transgene was expressed: In mice with the transgene expressed under the control of the human MRP8 promoter, which drives expression in early myeloid progenitors as well as in mature neutrophils and monocytes, neutrophil numbers were normal, but differentiation was impaired. Approximately 30 percent developed acute leukemia with a latency of three to nine months; remission of the leukemia could be induced by ATRA [33] . Two groups have generated transgenic mice expressing PML/RARa under the control of the human cathepsin G promoter, which drives expression in promonocytes and promyelocytes. These mice develop elevated numbers of immature myeloid cells in the bone marrow and peripheral blood. Approximately 10 to 30 percent develop leukemia with a latency of 12 to 14 months [35,36] . Treatment of these mice with ATRA caused apoptosis of myeloid precursors rather than differentiation. Transgenic mice expressing PML-RARa under the control of the CD11b promoter have also been generated [37] . This promoter drives expression in later stages of myeloid differentiation. These mice do not develop leukemia and have normal numbers and maturation of myeloid cells. However, the ability of these mice to regenerate granulocytes following sublethal irradiation was impaired.

Comparison of the phenotypes observed in the different transgenic mice reveals that the timing of PML-RARa expression during myeloid differentiation is a critical determinant in the development of leukemia. In addition, the relatively low frequency and long latency period for development of leukemia imply that genetic events in addition to the expression of PML-RARa are necessary in order for APL to occur [38,39] .

The precise way in which the fusion protein functions as an oncoprotein is incompletely understood. The two isoforms, PML/RARa and RARa/PML, have only subtle differences in function [40] . PML/RARa shows reduced sensitivity to retinoic acid in terms of dissociation of N-CoR [6] . This could lead to persistent transcriptional repression, thereby preventing differentiation of promyelocytes. Pharmacologic concentrations of retinoic acid, as used in the treatment of APL, result in dissociation of N-CoR, presumably permitting differentiation of the leukemic cells [6] .

The binding of the protein product of PML/RARa is thought to repress gene transcription through epigenomic changes including histone deacetylation or methylation [41] . A mechanism which includes the recruitment of a histone deacetylase may have therapeutic implications because in vitro studies have shown that resistance to all-trans retinoic acid can be overcome by the addition of a histone deacetylase inhibitor [42,43] . In addition, case reports and small trials have reported clinical responses to histone deacetylase inhibitors [44,45] . (See "Clinical manifestations, pathologic features, and diagnosis of acute promyelocytic leukemia in adults" section on Inhibition of histone deacetylase).

PML/RARa also may prolong the survival of the leukemic cells, perhaps in part by leading to downregulation of tumor necrosis factor-alpha (TNFa) receptors, thereby minimizing TNFa-induced apoptosis [46] . On the hand, PML/RARa in the presence of retinoic acid induces apoptosis in association with reduced levels of BCL-2 which normally protects against apoptosis [40] .

In support of this hypothesis are results obtained with mouse [47] and human [48] multipotent hematopoietic progenitor cells/stem cells (HPC/HSC) transfected in vitro with a retroviral vector containing PML/RARa cDNA. Expression of the PML/RARa fusion protein in human cells dictated the APL phenotype through the following effects [48] : Rapid induction of human HPC/HSC differentiation to the promyelocytic stage Maturation arrest at the promyelocytic stage, which was abolished by retinoic acid Reprogramming of HPC commitment to preferential granulopoietic differentiation irrespective of the hematopoietic growth factor (HGF)

stimulus Protection of HPC from apoptosis induced by HGF deprivation.

VARIANT TRANSLOCATIONS — A number of variant translocations have been described in APL, t(11;17)(q23;q11.12), t(5;17)(q35;q11.12), and t(11;17)(q13;q11.12).

PLZF/RARa and t(11;17) — A variant translocation t(11;17)(q23;q11.12) has been described in approximately one percent of patients with APL [15,49] . In these tumors, the 3' end of the RARa gene is fused to the 5' end of a gene called PLZF (promyelocytic leukemia zinc finger), which encodes a polypeptide containing nine zinc fingers, a motif frequently found in transcription factors. PLZF is expressed in myeloid but not lymphoid lineages, and its expression has been found to be downregulated during differentiation. Unlike PML, PLZF is not a component of nuclear bodies, but is localized in smaller, more numerous nuclear subdomains.

The PLZF/RARa fusion gene is predicted to encode a protein consisting of the amino terminal portion of PLZF, including several zinc fingers, and the same carboxy terminal portion of RARa that is fused to PML in cells having t(15;17). The PLZF/RARa fusion protein antagonizes the normal function of RARa/RXR-alpha heterodimers, suggesting that it behaves as a dominant negative mutant [50] .

Although the number of cases studied is small, APL with t(11;17)(q23;q11.12) is usually refractory to therapy with retinoids, in contrast to the great majority of APL cases with the more common t(15;17) [2,51] . As noted above, PML/RARa in t(15;17) shows reduced sensitivity to retinoic acid, but this can be overcome by pharmacological concentrations of retinoic acid. In contrast, pharmacological concentrations of retinoic acid do not induce dissociation of N-CoR from PLZF/RARa, leading to persistent transcription repression and prevention of differentiation [6,52] .

NPM/RARa and t(5;17) — A rare (less than 0.5 percent) variant translocation in APL has been described, t(5;17)(q35;q11.12), in which the nucleophosmin (NPM) gene was fused to RARa [15,53] . NPM is a nucleolar phosphoprotein that is involved in ribosomal ribonucleoprotein processing and transport. NPM is also involved in the t(2;5)(p23;q35) in anaplastic large cell lymphoma, where it fuses to the ALK gene. In addition, NPM has been found to fuse to the MLF1 gene in t(3;5)(q25.1;q35) in AML. Patients with this translocation are responsive to ATRA therapy [5] .

NuMA/RARa and t(11;17) — In the translocation t(11;17)(q13;q11.12), the Nuclear matrix-mitotic apparatus protein gene (NuMA) is fused with RARa [5] . Unlike t(11;17)(q23;q11.12), this variant appears responsive to ATRA [54] .

STAT5b/RARa and interstitial chromosome 17 deletion — A rare fusion between STAT5b (signal transducer and activator of transcription 5b) and RARa was found in a patient with an interstitial chromosome 17 deletion and an ATRA-resistant form of APL [55-57] .


Use of UpToDate is subject to the Subscription and License Agreement. REFERENCES
de The, H, Chomienne, C, Lanotte, M, et al. The t(15;17) translocation of acute promyelocytic leukaemia fuses the retinoic acid receptor alpha gene to a novel transcribed locus. Nature 1990; 347:558. Collins, SJ. Acute promyelocytic leukemia: Relieving repression induces remission. Blood 1998; 91:2631. Melnick, A, Licht, JD. Deconstructing a disease: RARalpha, its fusion partners, and their roles in the pathogenesis of acute promyelocytic leukemia. Blood 1999; 93:3167. Grimwade, D. The pathogenesis of acute promyelocytic leukaemia: Evaluation of the role of molecular diagnosis and monitoring in the management of the disease [Review]. Br J Haematol 1999; 106:591. Grignani, F, Fagioli, M, Alcalay, M, et al. Acute promyelocytic leukemia: From genetics to treatment. Blood 1994; 83:10. Guidez, F, Ivins, S, Zhu, J, et al. Reduced retinoic acid sensitivities of nuclear receptor corepressor binding to PML- and PLZF-RAR-alpha underlie molecular pathogenesis and treatment of acute promyelocytic leukemia. Blood 1998; 91:2634. Mueller, BU, Pabst, T, Fos, J, et al. ATRA resolves the differentiation block in t(15;17) acute myeloid leukemia by restoring PU.1 expression. Blood 2006; 107:3330. Breitman, TR, Collins, SJ, Keene, BR. Terminal differentiation of human promyelocytic leukemic cells in primary culture in response to retinoic acid. Blood 1981; 57:1000. Robertson, KA, Emami, B, Mueller, L, Collins, SJ. Multiple members of the retinoic acid receptor family are capable of mediating the granulocytic differentiation of HL-60 cells. Mol Cell Biol 1992; 12:3743. Gratas, C, Menot, ML, Dresch, C, Chomienne, C. Retinoid acid supports granulocytic but not erythroid differentiation of myeloid progenitors in normal bone marrow cells. Leukemia 1993; 7:1156. Warrell, RP Jr, de The, H, Wang, ZY, et al. Acute promyelocytic leukemia. N Engl J Med 1993; 329:177. Liu, TX, Zhang, JW, Tao, J, et al. Gene expression networks underlying retinoic acid-induced differentiation of acute promyelocytic leukemia cells. Blood 2000; 96:1496. Cassinat, B, Chevret, S, Zassadowski, F, Balitrand, N. In vitro all-trans retinoic acid sensitivity of acute promyelocytic leukemia blasts: a novel indicator of poor patient outcome. Blood 2001; 98:2862. Altucci, L, Rossin, A, Raffelsberger, W, et al. Retinoic acid-induced apoptosis in leukemia cells is mediated by paracrine action of tumor-selective death ligand TRAIL. Nat Med 2001; 7:680. Grimwade, D, Biondi, A, Mozziconacci, MJ, et al. Characterization of acute promyelocytic leukemia cases lacking the classic t(15;17): results of the european working party. Blood 2000; 96:1297. de The, H, Lavau, C, Marchio, A, et al. The PML-RAR alpha fusion mRNA generated by the t(15;17) translocation in acute promyelocytic leukemia encodes a functionally altered RAR. Cell 1991; 66:675. Kakizuka, A, Miller, WH, Umesono, K, et al. Chromosomal translocation t(15;17) in human acute promyelocytic leukemia fuses RAR alpha with a novel putative transcription factor, PML. Cell 1991; 66:663. Choi, YH, Bernardi, R, Pandolfi, PP, Benveniste, EN. The promyelocytic leukemia protein functions as a negative regulator of IFN-gamma signaling. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 2006; 103:18715. Maul, GG, Negorev, D, Bell, P, Ishov, AM. Review: properties and assembly mechanisms of ND10, PML bodies, or PODs. J Struct Biol 2000; 129:278. Guo, A, Salomoni, P, Luo, J, et al. The function of PML in p53-dependent apoptosis. Nat Cell Biol 2000; 2:730. Zhong, S, Salomoni, P, Ronchetti, S, et al. Promyelocytic leukemia protein (PML) and Daxx participate in a novel nuclear pathway for apoptosis. J Exp Med 2000; 191:631. Weis, K, Rambaud, S, Lavau, C, et al. Retinoic acid regulates aberrant nuclear localization of the PML-RAR alpha in acute promyelocytic leukemia. Cell 1994; 76:345. Dyck, JA, Maul, GG, Miller, Jr WH, et al. A novel macromolecular structure is a target of the promyelocyte-retinoic acid receptor oncoprotein. Cell 1994; 76:333. Zhu, J, Koken, MH, Quignon, F, et al. Arsenic-induced PML targeting onto nuclear bodies: implications for the treatment of acute promyelocytic leukemia. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 1997; 94:3978. Goddard, AD, Borrow, J, Freemont, PS, Solomon, E. Characterization of a zinc finger gene disrupted by the t(15;17) in acute promyelocytic leukemia. Science 1991; 254:1371. Gallagher, RE, Willman, CL, Slack, JL, et al. Association of PML-RAR alpha fusion mRNA type with pretreatment hematologic characteristics but not treatment outcome in acute promyelocytic leukemia: an intergroup molecular study. Blood 1997; 90:1656. Slack, JL, Willman, CL, Andersen, JW, et al. Molecular analysis and clinical outcome of adult APL patients with the type V PML-RARalpha isoform: results from intergroup protocol 0129. Blood 2000; 95:398. Gonzalez, M, Barragan, E, Bolufer, P, et al. Pretreatment characteristics and clinical outcome of acute promyelocytic leukaemia patients according to the PML-RARalpha isoforms: a study of the PETHEMA group. Br J Haematol 2001; 114:99. Perez, A, Kastner, P, Sethi, S, et al. PMLRAR homodimers: Distinct DNA binding properties and heteromeric interactions with RXR. EMBO J 1993; 12:3171. Cote, S, Zhou, D, Bianchini, A, et al. Altered ligand binding and transcriptional regulation by mutations in the PML/RARalpha ligand-binding domain arising in retinoic acid-resistant patients with acute promyelocytic leukemia. Blood 2000; 96:3200. Grignani, F, Ferrucci, PF, Testa, U, et al. The acute promyelocytic leukemia-specific PML-RAR alpha fusion protein inhibits differentiation and promotes survival of myeloid precursor cells. Cell 1993; 74:423. Tsai, S, Bartelmez, S, Heyman, R, et al. A mutated retinoic acid receptor-alpha exhibiting dominant-negative activity alters the lineage development of a multipotent hematopoietic cell line. Genes Dev 1992; 6:2258. Brown, D, Kogan, S, Lagasse, E, et al. A PMLRARalpha transgene initiates murine acute promyelocytic leukemia. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 1997; 94:2551. Kogan, SC, Hong, Sh, Shultz, DB, et al. Leukemia initiated by PMLRARalpha: the PML domain plays a critical role while retinoic acid-mediated transactivation is dispensable. Blood 2000; 95:1541. Grisolano, JL, Wesselschmidt, RL, Pelicci, PG, Ley, TJ. Altered myeloid development and acute leukemia in transgenic mice expressing PML-RAR alpha under control of cathepsin G regulatory sequences. Blood 1997; 89:376. He, LZ, Tribioli, C, Rivi, R, et al. Acute leukemia with promyelocytic features in PML/RARalpha transgenic mice. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 1997; 94:5302. Early, E, Moore, MA, Kakizuka, A, et al. Transgenic expression of PML/RARalpha impairs myelopoiesis. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 1996; 93:7900. Kogan, SC, Brown, DE, Shultz, DB, et al. BCL-2 Cooperates with Promyelocytic Leukemia Retinoic Acid Receptor alpha Chimeric Protein (PMLRARalpha) to Block Neutrophil Differentiation and Initiate Acute Leukemia. J Exp Med 2001; 193:531. Le Beau, MM, Bitts, S, Davis, EM, Kogan, SC. Recurring chromosomal abnormalities in leukemia in PML-RARA transgenic mice parallel human acute promyelocytic leukemia. Blood 2002; 99:2985. Slack, JL, Yu, M. Constitutive expression of the promyelocytic leukemia-associated oncogene PML/RAR-alpha in TF1 cells: Isoform-specific and retinoic acid-dependent effects on growth, bcl-2 expression, and apoptosis. Blood 1998; 91:3347. Hoemme, C, Peerzada, A, Behre, G, et al. Chromatin modifications induced by PML-RARalpha repress critical targets in leukemogenesis as analyzed by ChIP-Chip. Blood 2008; 111:2887. Lin, RJ, Nagy, L, Inoue, S, et al. Role of the histone deacetylase complex in acute promyelocytic leukemia. Nature 1998; 391:811. Grignani, F, De Matteis, S, Nervi, C, et al. Fusion proteins of the retinoic acid receptor-alpha recruit histone deacetylase in promyelocytic leukemia. Nature 1998; 391:815. Warrell, RP, He, LZ, Richon, V, et al. Therapeutic targeting of transcription in acute promyelocytic leukemia by use of an inhibitor of histone deacetylase. J Natl Cancer Inst 1998; 90:1621. Bug, G, Ritter, M, Wassmann, B, et al. Clinical trial of valproic acid and all-trans retinoic acid in patients with poor-risk acute myeloid leukemia. Cancer 2005; 104:2717. Testa, U, Grignani, F, Samoggia, P, et al. The PML/RAR-alpha fusion protein inhibits tumor necrosis factor-alpha-induced apoptosis in U937 cells and acute promyelocytic leukemia blasts. J Clin Invest 1998; 101:2278. Minucci, S, Monestiroli, S, Giavara, S, et al. PML-RAR induces promyelocytic leukemias with high efficiency following retroviral gene transfer into purified murine hematopoietic progenitors. Blood 2002; 100:2989. Grignani, F, Valtieri, M, Gabbianelli, M, et al. PML/RAR alpha fusion protein expression in normal human hematopoietic progenitors dictates myeloid commitment and the promyelocytic phenotype. Blood 2000; 96:1531. Chen, Z, Brand, NJ, Chen, A, et al. Fusion between a novel Kruppel-like zinc finger gene and the retinoic acid receptor-alpha locus due to a variant t(11;17) translocation associated with acute promyelocytic leukemia. EMBO J 1993; 12:1161. Chen, Z, Guidez, F, Rousselot, P, et al. PLZF-RAR alpha fusion proteins generated from the variant t(11;17)(q23;q21) translocation in acute promyelocytic leukemia inhibit ligand-dependent transactivation of wild-type retinoic acid receptors. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 1994; 91:1178. Guidez, F, Huang, W, Tong, JH, et al. Poor response to all-trans retinoic acid therapy in a t(11;17) PLZF/RAR alpha patient. Leukemia 1994; 8:12. Licht, JD, Chomienne, C, Goy, A, et al. Clinical and molecular characterization of a rare syndrome of acute promyelocytic leukemia associated with translocation (11;17). Blood 1995; 85:1083. Redner, RL, Rush, EA, Faas, S, et al. The t(5;17) variant of acute promyelocytic leukemia expresses a nucleophosmin-retinoic acid receptor fusion. Blood 1996; 87:882. Wells, RA, Hummel, JL, De Koven, A, et al. A new variant translocation in acute promyelocytic leukaemia: molecular characterization and clinical correlation. Leukemia 1996; 10:735. Arnould, C, Philippe, C, Bourdon, V, et al. The signal transducer and activator of transcription STAT5b gene is a new partner of retinoic acid receptor alpha in acute promyelocytic-like leukaemia. Hum Mol Genet 1999; 8:1741. Dong, S, Tweardy, DJ. Interactions of STAT5b-RARalpha, a novel acute promyelocytic leukemia fusion protein, with retinoic acid receptor and STAT3 signaling pathways. Blood 2002; 99:2637. Collins, SJ. Acute promyelocytic leukemia: STATs, HATs, and HDACs. Blood 2002; 99:2635.
Human chromosome 2 is very similar to chimpanzee chromosomes 2a and 2b laid end to end.
Yes I have seen it all over google.. what is the point?

Human chromosome 2 has the remains of telomeres in the middle of the chromosome, in the place they would be if 2a and 2b were fused.
Human chromosome 2 has a centromere in the same place as 2a, and the remains of a centromere in the place equivalent to the centromere of 2b



My question to Wa7abi was essentially "If you don't think chromosome fusion occurred, what explanation fits the evidence?"
I still don't see what chromosome fusion/breaks/translocations or similarities has to do with speciation?

But to expound on your introduction of 'Telomere' in your previous post..
I'd like to give a quick introduction to function and dysfunction.

Telomeres act as caps to keep the sticky ends of chromosomes from randomly clumping together.. and here is a neat little abstract on the dysfunction leading to cancer (not speciation)

Telomere dysfunction and telomerase activation in cancer - a pathological paradox?
O. Calcagnile, D. Gisselsson

Department of Clinical Genetics, University Hospital, Lund (Sweden)

Address of Corresponding Author
Cytogenet Genome Res 2007;118:270-276 (DOI: 10.1159/000108310)

Abstract.
Telomerase is expressed in more than 90% of human cancers. Telomere maintenance by this enzyme is believed to safeguard genomic integrity in neoplastic cells. Nevertheless, many telomerase-expressing tumours exhibit chromosomal instability triggered by short, dysfunctional telomeres, implying that active telomerase is not sufficient for preserving a functional telosomic nucleoprotein complex in cancer cells. We here examine three possible solutions to this ostensible paradox. First, prior to telomerase activation, telomere erosion may have evolved to a level where telomeric repeat sequences are too short to provide a functional substrate for telomerase enzyme activity. Second, mechanisms other than the continuous telomere erosion counteracted by telomerase may contribute to rapid shortening of telomere repeats. Third, dysfunction of telomere-regulating proteins may result in direct telomere uncapping. Moreover, telomerase may contribute to tumour development also through mechanisms unrelated to telomere length maintenance. Taken together, the available data on the role of telomerase in cancer strongly support that inhibition of this enzyme is a feasible strategy for cancer therapy.
Copyright © 2007 S. Karger AG, Basel


http://content.karger.com/produktedb...file=000108310

Hence my original question, now that we have a brief understanding of what it is, and what happens when it goes awry, of its relation whether in chimps or humans to speciation..

all the best
Reply

Woodrow
09-09-2009, 01:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Wa7abiScientist

One supposed evidence is that of number of chromosomes in humans is 46 while in 3 families of chimps it is 48. So our ancestor had 48 and two chromosomes joined together to form 46 and gave humans.
Interesting. Even more interesting is how often the obvious is over looked. I wonder how old the scientists, who proposed that theory, were the first time they failed general math?

If you take 48 Chromosomes and join 2 together you do not end up with 46 you end up with 47.But I guess it is easier to explain the math error then it would be to explain how 4 Chomosomes could simultaneously join to form 2 at exactly the same time and be the correct 4 to produce a viable living being.


To get 46 from the 48 (48 minus 4=44 add the 2 new ones made from the 4 and you get 46) You would have to have 4 combine into 2. But from what I have seen so far that in humans there is only one Chromosome that looks like it is the result of combining.

End point it means if the theory is correct we came from a creature with 47 Chromosomes (Doubtful, since Chromosomes usually come in pairs and pairs are an even number what is being seen as a joined chromosome might not be a joined Chromosome ) in any case it is evidence we did not come from chimps as chimps have 48 not 47
Reply

GreyKode
09-09-2009, 01:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Interesting. Even more interesting is how often the obvious is over looked. I wonder how old the scientists, who proposed that theory, were the first time they failed general math?

If you take 48 Chromosomes and join 2 together you do not end up with 46 you end up with 47.But I guess it is easier to explain the math error then it would be to explain how 4 Chomosomes could simultaneously join to form 2 at exactly the same time and be the correct 4 to produce a viable living being.


To get 46 from the 48 (48 minus 4=44 add the 2 new ones made from the 4 and you get 46) You would have to have 4 combine into 2. But from what I have seen so far that in humans there is only one Chromosome that looks like it is the result of combining.

End point it means if the theory is correct we came from a creature with 47 Chromosomes (Doubtful, since Chromosomes usually come in pairs and pairs are an even number what is being seen as a joined chromosome might not be a joined Chromosome ) in any case it is evidence we did not come from chimps as chimps have 48 not 47
Indeed, how does the 48 -2(combined)=46????
I am no expert but I think youre right, Wood.
Reply

جوري
09-09-2009, 01:40 AM
Originally Posted by Wa7abiScientist



One supposed evidence is that of number of chromosomes in humans is 46 while in 3 families of chimps it is 48. So our ancestor had 48 and two chromosomes joined together to form 46 and gave humans.
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Interesting. Even more interesting is how often the obvious is over looked. I wonder how old the scientists, who proposed that theory, were the first time they failed general math?

If you take 48 Chromosomes and join 2 together you do not end up with 46 you end up with 47.But I guess it is easier to explain the math error then it would be to explain how 4 Chomosomes could simultaneously join to form 2 at exactly the same time and be the correct 4 to produce a viable living being.


To get 46 from the 48 (48 minus 4=44 add the 2 new ones made from the 4 and you get 46) You would have to have 4 combine into 2. But from what I have seen so far that in humans there is only one Chromosome that looks like it is the result of combining.

End point it means if the theory is correct we came from a creature with 47 Chromosomes (Doubtful, since Chromosomes usually come in pairs and pairs are an even number what is being seen as a joined chromosome might not be a joined Chromosome ) in any case it is evidence we did not come from chimps as chimps have 48 not 47
lol.. I didn't even see his original comment...

Math is a little MINOR issue when introducing quasi science.

Here is a really funny video on fusion/translocation in cows ..
by the way leading to low fertility.. 'unbalanced gametes' or death in utero.. none give cows to cocorcoaches or apes to humans ...;D

Media Tags are no longer supported

:w:
Reply

cat eyes
09-09-2009, 01:43 AM
no i don't believe in darwin's theory of evolution.

it was the most boring load of INACCURATE rubbish i ever laid eyes on.

And quite funny also. after two years of studying, as soon as i passed my exams i don't want that biology book to come near my innocent brain again lol
Reply

JaffaCake
09-10-2009, 12:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I don't think the term has more than one meaning.. to determine the existence of vs. your chosen 'Dobzhansky T, Pavlovsky O. Experimentally created'
The main thing is that the flies were not artificially selected for breeding to induce this change, they were not 'directly manipulated' for this result. Dobzhansky wasn't even aware of it until he collected another batch of flies, possibly years after the speciation event.
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
You can't really concede that evolution/speciation occurs naturally and by the same breath introduce its paradox as means of its occurrence.
Perhaps you should elaborate, I haven't a clue what you mean by this.
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Yes I have seen it all over google.. what is the point?
If you want to try belittle my point by suggesting it's just some valueless waffle spread on the internet then you'll have to address the fact that it is well documented in academic literature, for example here.

The point is that this topic made up most of my response to Wa7abi. If you want to ignore what I was saying and argue some other point, fair enough.
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
of its relation whether in chimps or humans to speciation
Wa7abi was sceptical that human chromosome 2 exists due to a fusion of two other chromosomes. I'm asking him (or you) how you would explain the fact that there are telomeres in the middle of human chromosome 2 without the occurence of such a fusion event.


format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
End point it means if the theory is correct we came from a creature with 47 Chromosomes (Doubtful, since Chromosomes usually come in pairs and pairs are an even number what is being seen as a joined chromosome might not be a joined Chromosome ) in any case it is evidence we did not come from chimps as chimps have 48 not 47
I've highlighted the important part. For each type of chromosome you receive one from the mother and one from the father, so if you were to fuse/split any chromosome you actually lose/gain 2, not 1.

Humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes. If you have 24 pairs and one pair joins with another you have 23, hence 48 individual chromosomes becomes 46.
Reply

جوري
09-10-2009, 12:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by JaffaCake
The main thing is that the flies were not artificially selected for breeding to induce this change, they were not 'directly manipulated' for this result. Dobzhansky wasn't even aware of it until he collected another batch of flies, possibly years after the speciation event.
what did happen and how is it of relevance to the thread?
Perhaps you should elaborate, I haven't a clue what you mean by this.
If you want to try belittle my point by suggesting it's just some valueless waffle spread on the internet then you'll have to address the fact that it is well documented in academic literature, for example here.
Your article discusses such things as and let me quote directly:

'Huntington's disease gene, but also for genes associated with Wolf-Hirschhorn syndrome, polycystic kidney disease and a form of muscular dystrophy'


again, I am at a loss at what this has to do with evolution as pertains to speciation?

The point is that this topic made up most of my response to Wa7abi. If you want to ignore what I was saying and argue some other point, fair enough.
Wa7abi was sceptical that human chromosome 2 exists due to a fusion of two other chromosomes. I'm asking him (or you) how you would explain the fact that there are telomeres in the middle of human chromosome 2 without the occurence of such a fusion event.
And I have already stated that Wa7abi should defend such points, however, I have gone ahead and posted articles and videos as to what observably and naturally occurs as a direct result of fusion/breaks/translocations...

I've highlighted the important part. For each type of chromosome you receive one from the mother and one from the father, so if you were to fuse/split any chromosome you actually lose/gain 2, not 1.
That is not true at all, since there is no set pattern of chromosomal breaks and attachments.. and again, even if I were to accept it at face value, I have already posted a very detailed video to the outcome, most chromosomal anomalies are lethal in utero or result in very severe defects. Trisomy 21 is one of the few that can survive past the age of 20 and even they aren't without problems not just morphological but pathological as they are prune to Alzheimer and certain subtypes of Leukemia, again, pathologies not speciation!

Humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes. If you have 24 pairs and one pair joins with another you have 23, hence 48 individual chromosomes becomes 46.
see above replies..
some humans are even a 45,XO (Turner's Syndrome) notice I used the term human.. not other specie into human!

all the best of course!
Reply

جوري
09-10-2009, 12:38 AM
You should also visit our threads on this forum on mosaicism and chimeras, since the topics have been discussed here with such expansion, humans such as with Trisomy 21 (47,XX,+21), Turner syndrome (45XO/46XX) , Klinefelter's syndrome, 47, XXY or XXY syndrome amongst many other documented in genetic books though still human, have a difficult time reproducing... and that is the the expected outcome of any chromosomal anomaly if the genes affected code for something vital. If it is an area with nonfunctional genes, then luckily it can have no effect on the individual but may have devastating effects on later generation especially in the case of mitochondrial inheritance.. but no such outcome as ape to human becomes of it.. it is the very wishful thinking of dreamers who even if fully believe and subscribe to such folly, fail to explain what Apes speciated from, or what specie before them all the way back to a single celled organism that doesn't require a major leap of faith on behalf of the rest of us..

It is a bit awkward to pass of your beliefs as science, I am not really sure what the lot of you gain by it.. I think having faith in something, should be all about having peace and satisfaction? although given the similarities in your beliefs I at sometimes believe you to be just one individual under a host of alter egos..

all the best
Reply

Woodrow
09-10-2009, 12:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by JaffaCake


Humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes. If you have 24 pairs and one pair joins with another you have 23, hence 48 individual chromosomes becomes 46.
On the surface that seems correct. It sounds right and appears to make sense. But if you have 24 pairs and fuse one pair you get 23 pairs plus the fused pair which is the 47th Chromosome. This is a trisomy situation and results in either a non-viable organism or one that is incapable of reproduction. It is possible for some humans to have 47 chromosomes as in the case of Turners or Kleinfelters sydromes, but the mechanics that cause that are not the result of fusion.
Reply

Muhaba
09-11-2009, 06:18 AM
^OMG you are so right! Since when was math so difficult?

Now here are my questions regarding this: Supposing that somehow some chromosomes did combine and become 46, did this happen for a whole bunch of ape babies or a few or just one? If a few ape babies had their chromosomes combined, what is the probability that the exact same chromosomes would combine in the same way?

If only one ape baby's chromosomes combined, what is the probability that this ape would survive and produce a new species?

How did the new ape (or was it a form of human?) (with 46 chromosomes) mate? Did it mate with an ape that had the normal 48 chromosomes? Or did somehow another ape also have mutated chromosomes? What is the probability that this happened? How did these two meet and how compatible were they?

If miraculously there were two 46 chromosomed animals that found each other and have some babies, did those babies then mate with each other or was it possible for them to mate with the 48 chromosomed (original) animal?

What if there wasn't another animal with 46 chromosomes. Would the one animal with 46 chromosomes be able to mate with an ape with 48 chromosomes? If it could, then would these two be able to produce children? How many chromosomes would the children have? 23 from one parent and 24 from the other parent totalling 47?
Reply

Woodrow
09-11-2009, 07:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by muhaba
^OMG you are so right! Since when was math so difficult?

Now here are my questions regarding this: Supposing that somehow some chromosomes did combine and become 46, did this happen for a whole bunch of ape babies or a few or just one? If a few ape babies had their chromosomes combined, what is the probability that the exact same chromosomes would combine in the same way?

If only one ape baby's chromosomes combined, what is the probability that this ape would survive and produce a new species?

How did the new ape (or was it a form of human?) (with 46 chromosomes) mate? Did it mate with an ape that had the normal 48 chromosomes? Or did somehow another ape also have mutated chromosomes? What is the probability that this happened? How did these two meet and how compatible were they?

If miraculously there were two 46 chromosomed animals that found each other and have some babies, did those babies then mate with each other or was it possible for them to mate with the 48 chromosomed (original) animal?

What if there wasn't another animal with 46 chromosomes. Would the one animal with 46 chromosomes be able to mate with an ape with 48 chromosomes? If it could, then would these two be able to produce children? How many chromosomes would the children have? 23 from one parent and 24 from the other parent totalling 47?
If anybody ever takes comparative anatomy at the university level they will soon discover it is anatomically impossible for humans and any of the apes to mate. Not just impossible to have offspring. The actual physical act is impossible between any of the great apes (Gorillas, Chimps, bonobos, etc)
and humans in spite of what some old Jungle stories say.
Reply

Science101
09-11-2009, 10:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by muhaba
^OMG you are so right! Since when was math so difficult?

Now here are my questions regarding this: Supposing that somehow some chromosomes did combine and become 46, did this happen for a whole bunch of ape babies or a few or just one? If a few ape babies had their chromosomes combined, what is the probability that the exact same chromosomes would combine in the same way?

If only one ape baby's chromosomes combined, what is the probability that this ape would survive and produce a new species?

How did the new ape (or was it a form of human?) (with 46 chromosomes) mate? Did it mate with an ape that had the normal 48 chromosomes? Or did somehow another ape also have mutated chromosomes? What is the probability that this happened? How did these two meet and how compatible were they?

If miraculously there were two 46 chromosomed animals that found each other and have some babies, did those babies then mate with each other or was it possible for them to mate with the 48 chromosomed (original) animal?

What if there wasn't another animal with 46 chromosomes. Would the one animal with 46 chromosomes be able to mate with an ape with 48 chromosomes? If it could, then would these two be able to produce children? How many chromosomes would the children have? 23 from one parent and 24 from the other parent totalling 47?
We did not come from great apes that now exist. The 48 chromosome ancestors we came from are gone. Here's from the theory that explains this:

From: http://theoryofid.blogspot.com/

Chromosome Speciation (fast - Human, Fruit Fly, Mosquito)

Chromosome fusion speciation[17] is the result of two chromosomes joining to become a single one which in turn causes enough of a change in behavior and morphology a new species is produced. First the telomeres at each end of the 2 supercoiled chromosomes that fused became sticky by removal of the repeating code that forms a protective layer that makes the ends not-sticky. Then when not-sticky ends are in close enough proximity molecular forces of attraction take over then fusion occurs.

What causes telomeres to become not sticky to fuse like this, is not fully known. Phylogenetic evidence from the human genome indicates this has happened a number of times to increase chromosome complexity, along with extra copies of chromosomes being added to increase the number of chromosomes to increase total genome complexity. It is possible that through time an epigenetic mechanism has learned how to take good guesses this way, using an additional mechanism that when necessary prevents fusion by adding telomere repeat coding on ends to make not-sticky.

Fusion changes the locations of at least some of the chromosome territories that are formed upon uncoiling of the supercoiled chromosomes where each territory works as a single system, with neighboring specialized chromosome territory systems. The fusion event also scrambles some of the genes at each end as would be expected where there is a collision, and is evidenced at the fusion site of human chromosome number two where fragments from each side still embedded in the other. Even though there was not a significant amount of gene scrambling the rearranging of the chromosome territories may have already produced a noticeable morphological change. The mother of a child with this large a fusion might have been able to tell there was something unique about them but would be expected to still love them just the same, or more.

The fused chromosome is in either allele (either mother or father) of the haploid (has one of two sets of chromosomes) germ cell (egg or sperm) that divides down to develop into a 47 chromosome heterozygote (alleles are different not homozygous where alleles the same) humanoid that has the human chromosome #2 being expressed along with copy of the two chromosomes with no fusion that provides all that the cell had before, with something new in the fused copy for epigenetic systems to control to meet the needs of the growing cell. The fusion now replicates in the population as follows:

48 and 48 parents produce a 48 offspring only.
48 and 47 parents produce a 48 or 47 offspring.
47 and 47 parents produce a 48 or 47 or 46 human offspring.
47 and 46 parents produce a 47 or 46 human offspring.
46 and 46 parents produce a 46 human offspring only.

The first 46 chromosome humans who were born to the existing 47 chromosome lineage may have right away been fertile, or at first had sterility problems in which case human chromosome #2 had to first learn to survive to replicate without the unfused chromosomes of the other allele there to help maintain proper cell functions. It would then become increasingly difficult for a 46 to reproduce with 48 and possibly 47 in part because along with the new genome design came a new self-image that made the 48's look "apish" and 47's relatively "unattractive" to 46's.

Where "human" is defined as having the unique 46 chromosome genome design that separates us from 47 and 48 ancestors there was a first human couple in our ancestry that was already fully human. There is here a human man and a woman Chromosomal Adam and Eve who together could only produce 46 chromosome descendants whose children would prefer to be with their own kind as would their children's children through time, all the way from them to us.

Full Resolution:



http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Gyn0-PcXrJ...BandTshirt.bmp

News story:
http://tinyurl.com/ms8mah
Reply

Ramadhan
09-12-2009, 05:11 AM
^^ it is so scientific... not!
Reply

جوري
09-12-2009, 06:01 AM
when you require folks to take such a leap of faith simply to substitute one belief for a lesser belief and to sweep it under the alleged rug of science, when in fact it is anything pseudo science, don't come and expect that others should lap it up or 'else' -- of course the else is any number of insulting things that totally assume the person ignorant of science... in fact it is because we know how science works, and have seen the mechanism of said action at work, mutations/breaks/jumping genes at work that we draw the obvious conclusion.
Empiric evidence is not scientific, and I can think of no logical reason to create this schism save to foster a lesser set of beliefs that will send you back and incapacitate you from making actual scientific progress in areas that actually matter!
Reply

Science101
09-12-2009, 10:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
when you require folks to take such a leap of faith simply to substitute one belief for a lesser belief and to sweep it under the alleged rug of science, when in fact it is anything pseudo science, don't come and expect that others should lap it up or 'else' -- of course the else is any number of insulting things that totally assume the person ignorant of science... in fact it is because we know how science works, and have seen the mechanism of said action at work, mutations/breaks/jumping genes at work that we draw the obvious conclusion.
Empiric evidence is not scientific, and I can think of no logical reason to create this schism save to foster a lesser set of beliefs that will send you back and incapacitate you from making actual scientific progress in areas that actually matter!
In a complimentary way, that was an excellent rant Gossamer skye! I'll add that it's up to us to make the best of what science has to offer without worrying about it harming religion because religion is stronger inside us than that.

Even though science adds "Chromosomal" to their names, Adam and Eve are now back in science. Can now try to find out what they looked like using phylogenetics. That is something that can be done to science so it is up to us to make it so.

And it might not be obvious at first, but in the picture it's showing a chimp branched off long before our more humanlike ancestors were around with a modern chimp looking back on the right (about to get a trumpet in the ear) to show that they did not change much at all. Humans appeared quickly because of something special happening to us, that did not happen to the others.

What I did, is make a picture that at first glance might look normal but when you look carefully at it there is no lemur monkey slowly turning into a human like others might show. The newest scientific evidence allows changing the picture by this much, and it is possible that our 48's and the 47 ancestors were more human looking than are shown. But that can be added to the next batch of science changing again in the right direction.

The path through science where there is intelligence for there to be a Creator looks like this when fully scientifically worded. It does not say "Creator" it explains a phenomena that can be followed into the subatomic where consciousness itself might come from:

From: http://theoryofid.blogspot.com/

Introduction

The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause where from nonrandom behavior of matter comes a progression of self-assembling emergent behaviors where at the molecular, cellular and multicellular levels each is an increasingly complex fully autonomous self-learning associative memory confidence driven intelligence system that in turn produces fractal-similar emergence at the next intelligent level on up to us. Computer models of this common intelligence system that is present at each level shows its mechanism reduces to four necessary requirements; Something for intelligence to control (motors, muscles, metabolic cycle), sensory addressable memory to store motor actions in response, feedback to gauge failure or success in actions taken, and a guess mechanism that tries a new action either a "good guess" as in crossover exchange recombination and conserved domains being tried in new combinations or a "random guess" as in replication errors that can from-scratch design the small conserved domains that are the nuts and bolts and motors of complex molecular machinery.

Designs that successfully reproduce remain in memory in the population (gene pool) to keep going the billions year old learning process that is the cycle of life where through continual reproduction of previous state of genetic memory one replication at a time builds upon previous designs in memory. Thus a cladogram of resultant lineage shows a progression of adapting designs evidenced by the fossil record where never once was there not a predecessor of like design present in memory for the descendant design to have come from.

It is this progression of intelligent causality from nonrandom subatomic behavior in matter that makes possible the complexity of cells, speciation, Cambrian Explosion and all existing biodiversity. Without this intelligent cause, living things that we now see would not exist.
There is no "natural selection" variable in the mechanism. And right away it is stated "nonrandom" phenomena, so there are no random accidents. It is following the phenomena of "intelligence" through levels towards where there could be more levels into consciousness where a Creator would be expected to be for it to 24/7 be a part of us.

You know how when a theory even hints of religion some will go ape on it. So outside of the theory like in this forum I can explain how this keeps the search for the Creator going, and other things. The theory itself only states what science requires be explained to scientists so they can easily "accept" the science part, so it can be taught in the US public school science classes.

Everything in religion still makes sense. What changes is the path through science that is being followed. Instead of Adam and Eve being taken out of science, they get chromosomally put back in. The search for the Creator goes on and on from there, even though theory that makes it possible does not look like much at first. Just have to take one thing at a time and have patience, and science will keep going all our way even though it might still not be changing fast enough but at least it's progress in the right direction that would be a shame to waste.
Reply

جوري
09-12-2009, 07:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Science101
In a complimentary way, that was an excellent rant Gossamer skye! I'll add that it's up to us to make the best of what science has to offer without worrying about it harming religion because religion is stronger inside us than that.
I am not a christian, the Quran doesn't assert that the earth is 6000 years, or that man and woman were expelled because of snakes and not eating the apple of knowledge.. Evolution could have been very well God's plan for things, except the evidence that we have, or rather that science proposes is incorrect in that respect.. you can't speak of chromosomal fusion one day causing a woman to have a spontaneous abortion or a child with anomalies if she makes it to term and by same token speak evolution of apes into humans using those same means without introducing an article of faith since you can't prove it!
Even though science adds "Chromosomal" to their names, Adam and Eve are now back in science. Can now try to find out what they looked like using phylogenetics. That is something that can be done to science so it is up to us to make it so.
They were described to us, and you are correct in the regard, they didn't look like us, but they weren't apes either, and may I further comment that 'science' hasn't pieced together correctly what they looked like. In fact, science would be better off finding a cure for the common cold, something so trivial seems like such a challenge before deciding what ancient man looked like!

And it might not be obvious at first, but in the picture it's showing a chimp branched off long before our more humanlike ancestors were around with a modern chimp looking back on the right (about to get a trumpet in the ear) to show that they did not change much at all. Humans appeared quickly because of something special happening to us, that did not happen to the others.
If it is obvious, then obvious to a select few illuminati, frankly I am at a loss as to how putting pictures some which are shamelessly drawn not even unearthed assures that said beings split off one another.
What I did, is make a picture that at first glance might look normal but when you look carefully at it there is no lemur monkey slowly turning into a human like others might show. The newest scientific evidence allows changing the picture by this much, and it is possible that our 48's and the 47 ancestors were more human looking than are shown. But that can be added to the next batch of science changing again in the right direction.
Looking at pictures does nothing for me, when the details are quite farcical.. how about using science to account for every little detail rather than putting pictures next to one another and expecting that we should believe it as face value?
The path through science where there is intelligence for there to be a Creator looks like this when fully scientifically worded. It does not say "Creator" it explains a phenomena that can be followed into the subatomic where consciousness itself might come from:
You'll forgive me but I am not much into makeweight words. In fact extraneous words are known more to infuriate me than sway me to see it one way or the other, as stated previously, do you have science to back it up or do you have theories and day dreams and imaginative artists? We need experimental science and we certainly have the vectors to duplicate it to make it factual, I don't want the fifty page essay on empiricism!



after this, I can't be bothered with all that verbosity, you'll forgive me, you are an affable enough guy, but I can't be bothered with a substitution, simply because you feel it will let you in into the smarts club and have you recognized by your peers and not branded some sort of ignoramus bible thumper who is otherwise into cognitive conservatism believing the earth is flat and 6000 years old, trust me I can understand that, especially when you have so much achievement under your belt and then get a snotty nosed 16 year old atheist mocking it all because your other set of beliefs are unbelievable. To me this is just another religion and a lesser one at that. I don't like to subscribe to fairy tales. .. there is a middle ground, it need not be believe in this or have no scientific integrity.

all the best
Reply

Science101
09-14-2009, 04:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
They were described to us, and you are correct in the regard, they didn't look like us, but they weren't apes either, and may I further comment that 'science' hasn't pieced together correctly what they looked like. In fact, science would be better off finding a cure for the common cold, something so trivial seems like such a challenge before deciding what ancient man looked like!
.....

all the best
Honestly, I would not where to begin affording all the lab stuff I would need to cure the common cold or have an idea how it could be done. But I came back to this old thread to reply to an email I received that said "Reply to thread 'Evolution Test!'" where I noticed muhaba had a number of excellent questions that I specialize in answering, and I could cure that problem. Not that I wouldn't also like to be able to cure their sniffles!

I could tell that you had an interesting view of the human origin issue. If you have revealed insight that any didn't know about then it would be good to share. Scripture cannot be ruled out as a surviving account of our speciation so might as well add that in too.

Science is a mix of ideas to explain how things work from all cultures all over the world. All are invited, with there being no shame in asking good questions or searching for better answers to them. It's always best to know what the evidence is, and what can be concluded from it.

And I do not worry about the ignoramus bible thumper label, their story is actually very scientifically insteresting as in the "Why The Religious Minded Rule Science, With Science..." topic:

http://www.kcfs.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=12253#12253

I guess you could say, the thump starts there. And Islamic culture has science heros like that too, hopefully in time will have more.
Reply

جوري
09-14-2009, 05:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Science101
Honestly, I would not where to begin affording all the lab stuff I would need to cure the common cold or have an idea how it could be done. But I came back to this old thread to reply to an email I received that said "Reply to thread 'Evolution Test!'" where I noticed muhaba had a number of excellent questions that I specialize in answering, and I could cure that problem. Not that I wouldn't also like to be able to cure their sniffles!
I know, indeed, it was meant in jest.. can't seem to get a grip on something trivial that lives in the nose for about a week, yet already unlocked the secrets to the universe!

I could tell that you had an interesting view of the human origin issue. If you have revealed insight that any didn't know about then it would be good to share. Scripture cannot be ruled out as a surviving account of our speciation so might as well add that in too.
The point is just that exactly, your, or the explanations offered are more or less as highly implausible, and frankly serve no purpose-- I can think of no good use of imagining what we could have speciated from... the concept is created solely to ease atheists into their life style of God rejection.. he either created the world and neglected it, or simply we sprouted from the ocean with a dash of wind and sunshine, or from a rock by the same means.. Everyone gets contentious and then go home happy!
Science is a mix of ideas to explain how things work from all cultures all over the world. All are invited, with there being no shame in asking good questions or searching for better answers to them. It's always best to know what the evidence is, and what can be concluded from it.
No argument there.. indeed using 'science' not empiricism should be the operative word!


all the best
Reply

Science101
09-15-2009, 11:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
The point is just that exactly, your, or the explanations offered are more or less as highly implausible, and frankly serve no purpose--
Our 46 chromosomes can be counted under microscope. The reason why there is not the usual 48 can be easily seen to be because of fusion in both allele pair from each parent that resulted in our second largest chromosome. It's only expected that people will want to know more about that, which gives a useful explanation a purpose.

format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I can think of no good use of imagining what we could have speciated from... the concept is created solely to ease atheists into their life style of God rejection..
Science does not belong to Atheists. Not anymore, anyway.

You would be surprised how fast concepts that must include a Chromosomal Adam and Eve in their logic changes things. Allowing the search for a Creator in science is unheard of in the Atheism camp. And what is most precious is how Creationist ideas in regards to retina design proved to have been correct, while those from the Atheism movement proved to be incorrect on a number of things. Science is not going their way right now, so it is honestly more like a slowly crumbling empire.

There is no way to deny that we have the human 46 chromosome design while the 48's all still have the original 48. This fusion is something that happened right away and with no natural selection required, not some "slowly evolved" trait which in this case makes the old evolutionary theory thinking kinda useless for understanding where we came from. Therefore the most modern view finds Adam and Eve at a "chromosome speciation" event, with scripture having an interesting way of describing it without contradicting scientific evidence.

People want to know what the 48 to 46 chromosome thing is all about. The estimated date of the fusion and when humans appeared in the fossil record cover are the same, which is very real evidence that Adam and Eve existed and that is how a whole new specie like us is created. And that is better than no scientific answer at all, especially since having none only gives your competition a knowledge void to fill with philosophical based arguments.
Reply

JaffaCake
09-15-2009, 12:03 PM
Sorry about the delay
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
what did happen and how is it of relevance to the thread?
Well nobody knows, Dobzhansky didn't even know, so for you to say that the flies were directly manipulated to that end makes no sense. It's relevant to this thread because it involves the emergence of a new species.
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Your article discusses such things as and let me quote directly:

'Huntington's disease gene, but also for genes associated with Wolf-Hirschhorn syndrome, polycystic kidney disease and a form of muscular dystrophy'
That is a colossal example of quoting out of context to intentionally mislead. Full quote:

'Human chromosome 2 is unique to the human lineage in being the product of a head-to-head fusion of two intermediate-sized ancestral chromosomes. Chromosome 4 has received attention primarily related to the search for the Huntington's disease gene, but also for genes associated with Wolf-Hirschhorn syndrome, polycystic kidney disease and a form of muscular dystrophy.'

We're talking about chromosome 2, not 4.
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
some humans are even a 45,XO (Turner's Syndrome) notice I used the term human.. not other specie into human!
Well that's a very interesting example you've given. Doesn't the definition of 'species' usually include a component of interbreeding? Those with Turner's Syndrome aren't capable of interbreeding with the general population are they?
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
however, I have gone ahead and posted articles and videos as to what observably and naturally occurs as a direct result of fusion/breaks/translocations...
There's a problem with this and it's the same one you see anywhere people are discussing strongly held beliefs, that of reinforcement bias. If the belief appears to conflict with real world occurrences the believer actively seeks out information which confirms their own ideals while ignoring anything which contradicts them.

You have started with an assumption that chromosome fusions are always detrimental. Therefore human chromosome 2 cannot be the product of a fusion because it is part of the 'normal' human makeup.

Perhaps if you started at a different point, deducing a conclusion from the evidence rather than the other way round, it might be more productive.

Anyway, you've wandered beautifully away from my question, which was "If you don't think chromosome fusion occurred, what explanation fits the evidence?"
Reply

جوري
09-15-2009, 05:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Science101
Our 46 chromosomes can be counted under microscope. The reason why there is not the usual 48 can be easily seen to be because of fusion in both allele pair from each parent that resulted in our second largest chromosome. It's only expected that people will want to know more about that, which gives a useful explanation a purpose.
Indeed, they can be counted under the microscope.. we also have FISH ( fluorescence in situ hybridization) and a host of others..what is your point?


Science does not belong to Atheists. Not anymore, anyway.
Who said anything about science belonging to atheists? you clearly misconstrued what I wrote.
You would be surprised how fast concepts that must include a Chromosomal Adam and Eve in their logic changes things. Allowing the search for a Creator in science is unheard of in the Atheism camp. And what is most precious is how Creationist ideas in regards to retina design proved to have been correct, while those from the Atheism movement proved to be incorrect on a number of things. Science is not going their way right now, so it is honestly more like a slowly crumbling empire.
Science isn't concerned with religion.. its concern should be to produce solutions in some problem domain!

There is no way to deny that we have the human 46 chromosome design while the 48's all still have the original 48. This fusion is something that happened right away and with no natural selection required, not some "slowly evolved" trait which in this case makes the old evolutionary theory thinking kinda useless for understanding where we came from. Therefore the most modern view finds Adam and Eve at a "chromosome speciation" event, with scripture having an interesting way of describing it without contradicting scientific evidence.
You keep hammering in an unprovable point.. why do you insist on doing this and calling it science?


all the best
Reply

جوري
09-15-2009, 06:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by JaffaCake
Sorry about the delayWell nobody knows,
I lost sleep nights awaiting fervently your input!

Dobzhansky didn't even know, so for you to say that the flies were directly manipulated to that end makes no sense. It's relevant to this thread because it involves the emergence of a new species.
I believe that I have quoted you directly from the paper and pls let me recap
.'species formation through doubling of the chromosomal hybrid is however, not the usual method of speciation'

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pag...20&pageindex=2

in other words it appears that you are looking for something that simply isn't the acting technique. Further what do flies have to do with humans and apes? It is a huge leap given the same proposed methods in humans yield a completely different outcome, see previous examples.

That is a colossal example of quoting out of context to intentionally mislead. Full quote:

'Human chromosome 2 is unique to the human lineage in being the product of a head-to-head fusion of two intermediate-sized ancestral chromosomes. Chromosome 4 has received attention primarily related to the search for the Huntington's disease gene, but also for genes associated with Wolf-Hirschhorn syndrome, polycystic kidney disease and a form of muscular dystrophy.'
Actually it is rather an excellent example of how many of you come here referencing an ambiguous article from which we are to draw what we may. Not only do you not bother reason or explain content as relates to the thread, You bank that referencing to some unrelated scientific jargon is an assertion with an implicit conviction that you are wiser and more intelligent than the Bedouins on board, in fact doing yourself a great disservice of having no intellectual honesty whatsoever!
Human chromosome 2 being a product of some ancestral fusion is nothing but a conjecture with little hard evidence. We share 50% of our genes with Bananas not as stark as 98% with Apes, but the combination in any single chromosome are phenomenal.. if you apprehended that better, it would crystallize for you why even with allografts you need immunosuppressants for impending rejection, let alone xenografts. We are not descendants of apes anymore than we are bananas!
We're talking about chromosome 2, not 4.Well that's a very interesting example you've given. Doesn't the definition of 'species' usually include a component of interbreeding? Those with Turner's Syndrome aren't capable of interbreeding with the general population are they?
Thank you for invalidating yourself.. that is in fact the outcome of chromosomal anomalies/fusions/breaks etc.. Even if the fetus comes to term and manages to live it will not be able to reproduce let alone speciate!


There's a problem with this and it's the same one you see anywhere people are discussing strongly held beliefs, that of reinforcement bias. If the belief appears to conflict with real world occurrences the believer actively seeks out information which confirms their own ideals while ignoring anything which contradicts them.
It is called Cognitive dissonance. Do you believe that by pointing out that obvious that you are exempt from it? in fact your entire posts here have been nothing but an assertion to just that!
You have started with an assumption that chromosome fusions are always detrimental. Therefore human chromosome 2 cannot be the product of a fusion because it is part of the 'normal' human makeup.
And you are yet to prove otherwise, if we go your route it would be based on an a priori judgment, not necessarily supported by fact, I am wondering why in your mind you deem that superior to what we actually know and see?
Perhaps if you started at a different point, deducing a conclusion from the evidence rather than the other way round, it might be more productive.
Oh how so? shouldn't there be some sort of experimental results that support said hypothesis if we are to take them as hard facts.. we certainly have the vectors to do so, Liposomes, Ecoli bacteria to name a few, it would be wonderful to assuage everyone's doubts by reproducing the same results in lieu of opining another 21 pages of drivel!

Anyway, you've wandered beautifully away from my question, which was "If you don't think chromosome fusion occurred, what explanation fits the evidence?"
your question is akin to agrammatism, mindless drivel pieced together to serve no purpose, I really have no idea what you are driving at or what you are looking for or even what you are asking!

all the best!
Reply

JaffaCake
09-15-2009, 11:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I believe that I have quoted you directly from the paper and pls let me recap
What difference does it make that polyploidy is not the 'usual' method? It happens (here, for example) and it's perfectly valid, just not all that common.
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Not only do you not bother reason or explain content as relates to the thread, You bank that referencing to some unrelated scientific jargon is an assertion with an implicit conviction that you are wiser and more intelligent than the Bedouins on board, in fact doing yourself a great disservice of having no intellectual honesty whatsoever!
You appear to be projecting your own problems onto me :)
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I really have no idea what you are driving at or what you are looking for or even what you are asking!
You know what it is that I'm asking, because I've asked it twice already and you've declined to provide a response. Perhaps you'd prefer to write off as deluded anyone who disagrees with you, such as these.

If human chromosome 2 is not a result of fusion, how do you explain the telomeric sequences in the middle and the remains of an extra centromere, along with the fact that it looks almost identical to two chimp chromosomes laid end to end?
Reply

جوري
09-16-2009, 12:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by JaffaCake
What difference does it make that polyploidy is not the 'usual' method? It happens (here, for example) and it's perfectly valid, just not all that common.
Thanks for the informative article, in a nut shell, this is adaptation. It isn't speciation. Such as that which occurs in metaplasia of the esophagus from squamous to columnar epithelium:



to



due to repeated stress, without getting into the molecular basis of it, allows organs or organisms involved to adapt and undergo histological changes to better acquiesce to their surrounding!
the above is an accepted and undisputed mechanism. I suggest before you quote me hordes of unrelated topics that you first familiarize yourself of the differences between macro and micro-evolution!

You appear to be projecting your own problems onto me :)
No, I believe it is an adequate assessment of you given the repeated blunders!
You know what it is that I'm asking, because I've asked it twice already and you've declined to provide a response. Perhaps you'd prefer to write off as deluded anyone who disagrees with you, such as these.
The article is based on empiricism--terms used in said articles such as 'the putative nature is unknown' and 'suggesting that the telomeres at the extreme end may have been involved' from what you cited are your clue euphemisms for empiricism-- from which at the end you are left to draw your own conclusions. The fact that you already have Apes living side by side us and can use the same suggested means to fuse centromeric or telmoeric ends to yield the same results as theorized to actualize your beliefs should carry this to the next level rather than make it the new toy for a playground of amateurs on some public blog and since the beliefs in said case are indeed ever changing at one point it was rapid bursts of genetic changes causing speciation and now it is a mere a series of jumps and fusions with long static periods perhaps in the future it will be something else all together...... and in the end there is no reason or drive for these successive events to have taken place, in other words we'd probably have been more successful as a species of algae or cockroaches than destructive humans with sentience which evolved from God knows what... but that is not our topic however what is important is that you not subscribe to this as you would a religion lest you end up with a foot in your mouth ten years down the line.. until such a time you reference me to an article with a sort of hard core data, everything you write here about flies and frogs and one large chromosome is an effort in futility.

at the end of the day, the only outcome we see of actualized fusions/breaks/translocations are in fact detrimental!

If human chromosome 2 is not a result of fusion, how do you explain the telomeric sequences in the middle and the remains of an extra centromere, along with the fact that it looks almost identical to two chimp chromosomes laid end to end?
Many things that you deem 'remains' or 'rudimentary', prove to either have a purpose later on, misunderstood as to its nature-- some are simply nonfunctional for our current state of understanding.

My answer is, those are the building blocks for our universe, the same as you can have 26 letter of the alphabet creating a 9000 page dictionaries and endless articles covering everything from tandem bikes to Cloning and debriefing as well over time more and more words evolve.. some words are related, some are complete opposites, all made of the same first principles yet they are not the same words.

You want to believe you have descended from apes.. be my guest, no one is forcing you to change your beliefs! we share 35% of out genes with algae or bananas and 82% are shared with the platypus-- did the Apes result from a fusion on the platypus and before the platypus bananas and before the banana some algae?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1011142628.htm

all the best
Reply

Science101
09-16-2009, 02:54 AM
Gossamer, you're now attempting to argue that "polyploidy" is not a "speciation event" by showing a picture of cells that have nothing at all to do with "polyploidy". If you were born a 92 chromosome giant that was obviously not like the usual 46 chromosome humans then you would have experienced a macroevolution speciation event because of the way science defines what a species is. If you do not like the current definitions then argue that the definitions that do exist are in your opinion illogical, not try to argue that speciation is impossible.

We all know that the genome of a frog makes a frog, not a dog. And the genome of a dog does not produce frogs. Each is a unique species with its own set of chromosomes. Therefore it is very logical to conclude that very large and sudden changes in genome structure can and will produce a new species or subspecies.

We all also know we are not chimps, yet you are arguing that chromosome speciation is impossible which is the same as saying that even with the large genome differences we are still only a chimpanzee! And you are worried about Atheists doing that? Phew! Step back from your argument and look at what you are saying here!

There is something in our genome that makes us human and a chimp a chimp, what is it?
Reply

جوري
09-16-2009, 03:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Science101
Gossamer, you're now attempting to argue that "polyploidy" is not a "speciation event" by showing a picture of cells that have nothing at all to do with "polyploidy". If you were born a 92 chromosome giant that was obviously not like the usual 46 chromosome humans then you would have experienced a macroevolution speciation event because of the way science defines what a species is. If you do not like the current definitions then argue that the definitions that do exist are in your opinion illogical, not try to argue that speciation is impossible.
Science, I am not arguing that polyploidy is akin to metaplasia, I am arguing that the end product of such anomalies if they survive will not give you a different species rather the same species perhaps with modifications as means to adapt to the environment and for such I have included the cells that have undergone metaplastic change as an example, although it is extremely rare as even the article itself so mentions; not the metaplasia but his example, as often the end result of such changes are truncated proteins, aborted fetuses, genetic anomalies, and in the case I personally mentioned above (a barrettes esophagus) is cancerous with a grim prognosis..and that is in fact what I have argued all along!..
We all know that the genome of a frog makes a frog, not a dog. And the genome of a dog does not produce frogs. Each is a unique species with its own set of chromosomes. Therefore it is very logical to conclude that very large and sudden changes in genome structure can and will produce a new species or subspecies.
indeed, however humans aren't a subspecies of apes if that is what you are deriving at!

We all also know we are not chimps, yet you are arguing that chromosome speciation is impossible which is the same as saying that even with the large genome differences we are still only a chimpanzee! And you are worried about Atheists doing that? Phew! Step back from your argument and look at what you are saying here!
I have no idea what this paragraph means in relation to the topic or what I have personally written!
Also, pls don't presume to know what it is that I worry or don't worry about, finding a suitable suede polish for my Marni shoes as to not ruin them in all fairness at the moment it taking precedence over why atheists believe in what they do and you by proxy!
There is something in our genome that makes us human and a chimp a chimp, what is it?
What do you think it is?


all the best
Reply

Science101
09-16-2009, 03:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
There is something in our genome that makes us human and a chimp a chimp, what is it?
What do you think it is?
Here is what I think it is. Where is your explanation?

From: http://theoryofid.blogspot.com/

Speciation

Speciation is a process which causes enough change in genotype or phenotype of an organism that they branch off from the lineage they once were to become a new "species" or "subspecies". In farming there are "breeds" of the cow species which are still able to interbreed with each other (but not always) and each a subspecies that can be given a unique scientific name. All cows are the same species, and each unique breed of cow is a separate subspecies.

To complicate the defining of a species some are different colors or are born with unique markings, yet they are all the same species and subspecies. Ants and bees are a good example where members of the same colony look entirely different depending on what they do.

Although it is sometimes very difficult or impossible to determine exactly where and when a "speciation event" occurred, the mechanisms that cause speciation can be listed as the following. In some cases speciation happens very slowly. In other cases it is immediate in which case there are no transitional forms, and there can be no transitional fossils.

Behavioral Speciation (very slow)

Speciation is in part guided by what the organism itself finds desirable in the variety available to select as a mate. This includes extreme examples such as peacocks where females selecting the largest most attractive tail design has led to males with giant brilliant displays, even though this makes it more difficult to fly from predators.

Although human speciation was chromosomal in origin, we have a similar intelligence guided mate selection preference. In magazine advertising the looks of "sex symbols" are sometimes computer enhanced to represent the conscious ideals not yet common in our morphology. What is added or removed from the picture helps show what human intelligence finds most desireable.

Geographic isolation can lead to behavioral speciation events. In the wild there is what are called "ring species" that slowly extended their territory in a direction that in time brings them back to where they started, forming a ring. By the time the ring forms a complete circle back again they are no longer able or no longer choose to breed with each other. In this case it is obvious that speciation occurred but there is no one place along the way where they suddenly changed, which then makes it impossible to find one single point along the way that they became a new subspecies (or possibly new species).

In behavioral speciation there is no one day and time that a pivotal event occurred, no single genome change resulted in a "speciation event" that created a new species. And the genome must first be already drifting in that direction or else such morphological change is impossible. In the peacock example we can say that the peacocks are aroused by the direction their genome is already set to go, anyway. Therefore what they in their mind find desirable is the same as what the genome finds desirable at the molecular level being expressed at the level of the emergent peacock brain. What they find desirable is not here hard-wired into neurons as an image or picture of what it should find desireable in a mate, it is an expression of the molecular genome itself that even responds chemically with hormones that cause physiological change where in humans just a picture of a desireable mate causes this molecular "arousal" to be produced.

Although all living things are at the mercy of climate change, volcanoes, earthquakes, floods, and other disasters we can to some degree predict where a species is drifting towards by how it idealizes itself. For our species there is all of art and culture where we find exaggerations of real life where the size of Betty Boops pupil alone is the size of her whole mouth yet we still recognize this image as being human and sexy. What produces this may be that it is possible for our genome to drift in that direction, or already is.

How long it would take an isolated genome to speciate depends on its genetic learning rate (how fast it gains or changes new information/genes). Sexual reproduction has a good amount of crossover exchange which greatly accelerates the ability to adapt and change. Asexual reproducers such as E. coli produce clones of itself which are identical to the parent. Fast responses to environment is then from exchanging plasmids but these are separate transient genomes, not the primary genome that accomplishes cell growth and reproduction.

There are "living fossils" that have changed so little it seems to us that they should have become a new species by now or at least new morphology. But this change is relative to how fast our genome changes in comparison to theirs. So it is not time alone that matters, we must also consider the genome learning rate in our consideration of how long it takes for a given genome to speciate.

Hybridization Speciation (immediate)

Common in plants and used in agriculture a hybrid species is produced when two species combine to form a new non-sterile species. In single cell organisms one species may retain all or part of its original form inside of the other (endosymbiosis). In complex animals hybridization can be more difficult. Horses and donkeys normally give birth to a sterile mule but on rare occasions a fertile mule is born.

Polyploid Speciation (immediate)

Polyploid speciation is the result of all chromosomes doubling, tripling or more in number. With twice or more of everything the cells are proportionately larger, resulting in a larger plant or animal. This is relatively common in self-reproducing plants. In animals reproducing the new genome structure requires a genome compatible mate, therefore surviving polyploidy species are less frequent but are still found in some insects, fishes, amphibians, reptiles and rat.[18] Paleopolyploidy is the scientific study of prehistoric polyploid speciation events.

Chromosome Speciation (fast - Human, Fruit Fly, Mosquito)

Chromosome fusion speciation[17] is the result of two chromosomes joining to become a single one such as the origin of human chromosome #2. Chromosome fission speciation is the result of a chromosome division.

In human chromosomal fusion speciation the telomeres at each end of the 2 supercoiled chromosomes became sticky, possibly by removal of the repeating code that forms a protective layer that makes the ends not-sticky. Then when not-sticky ends are in close enough proximity molecular forces of attraction take over then fusion occurs.

What causes telomeres to become not sticky to fuse like this, is not fully known. Phylogenetic evidence from the human genome indicates this has happened a number of times to increase chromosome complexity, along with extra copies of chromosomes being added to increase the number of chromosomes to increase total genome complexity. It is possible that through time an epigenetic mechanism has learned how to take good guesses this way, using an additional mechanism that when necessary prevents fusion by adding telomere repeat coding on ends to make not-sticky.

Fusion changes the locations of at least some of the chromosome territories that are formed upon uncoiling of the supercoiled chromosomes where each territory works as a single system, with neighboring specialized chromosome territory systems. The fusion event also scrambles some of the genes at each end as would be expected where there is a collision, and is evidenced at the fusion site of human chromosome number two where fragments from each side still embedded in the other. Even though there was not a significant amount of gene scrambling the rearranging of the chromosome territories may have already produced a noticeable morphological change. The mother of a child with this large a fusion might have been able to tell there was something unique about them but would be expected to still love them just the same, or more.

The fused chromosome is in either allele (either mother or father) of the haploid (has one of two sets of chromosomes) germ cell (egg or sperm) that divides down to develop into a 47 chromosome heterozygote (alleles are different not homozygous where alleles the same) humanoid that has the human chromosome #2 being expressed along with copy of the two chromosomes with no fusion that provides all that the cell had before, with something new in the fused copy for epigenetic systems to control to meet the needs of the growing cell. The fusion now replicates in the population as follows:

48 and 48 parents produce a 48 offspring only.
48 and 47 parents produce a 48 or 47 offspring.
47 and 47 parents produce a 48 or 47 or 46 human offspring.
47 and 46 parents produce a 47 or 46 human offspring.
46 and 46 parents produce a 46 human offspring only.

The first 46 chromosome humans who were born to the existing 47 chromosome lineage may have right away been fertile, or at first had sterility problems in which case human chromosome #2 had to first learn to survive to replicate without the unfused chromosomes of the other allele there to help maintain proper cell functions. It would then become increasingly difficult for a 46 to reproduce with 48 and possibly 47 in part because along with the new genome design came a new self-image that made the 48's look "apish" and 47's relatively "unattractive" to 46's.

Where "human" is defined as having the unique 46 chromosome genome design that separates us from 47 and 48 ancestors there was a first human couple in our ancestry that was already fully human. There is here a human man and a woman Chromosomal Adam and Eve who together could only produce 46 chromosome descendants whose children would prefer to be with their own kind as would their children's children through time, all the way from them to us.
Reply

جوري
09-16-2009, 03:27 AM
in the immortal loathsome words of CZ.. whatever you say..
I am pretty sure folks can stick any of the above mentioned or afore mentioned in google and see the actual outcome rather than the dreamt up outcome..

on this note I bid you a great evening.

all the best
Reply

Science101
09-16-2009, 03:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I am pretty sure folks can stick any of the above mentioned or afore mentioned in google and see the actual outcome rather than the dreamt up outcome..
It is already too obvious that both human and chimp genomes do exist. If it were impossible like you claim, then we would not exist. Therefore it is obviously possible to survive the chromosomal fusion event that turned 48 into 46. We only need to look in the mirror to determine the survivability of that event.
Reply

جوري
09-16-2009, 03:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Science101
It is already too obvious that both human and chimp genomes do exist. .
Yes Genomes exist and not just for humans and chimps ;D

all the best
Reply

Science101
09-16-2009, 04:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
format_quote Originally Posted by Science101
It is already too obvious that both human and chimp genomes do exist. .
Yes Genomes exist and not just for humans and chimps ;D

all the best
At least we agree on that!

Now all you have to do is explain the origin of the differences in genome design that all humans in this forum obviously all survived too or else they would not be here either.
Reply

جوري
09-16-2009, 08:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Science101
At least we agree on that!
I agree only with what is in accord with accepted standards of science. Not concocted pseudoscience built entirely on fallacious assumptions!
Now all you have to do is explain the origin of the differences in genome design that all humans in this forum obviously all survived too or else they would not be here either.
This statement has no logical or meaningful connection!

all the best
Reply

Science101
09-16-2009, 01:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I agree only with what is in accord with accepted standards of science. Not concocted pseudoscience built entirely on fallacious assumptions!
Then what do you agree with when we compare genomes of human and chimp. Right away find a fusion that only exists in humans, in chromosome number 2:


http://www.thetech.org/genetics/ask.php?id=69

When the locations of HOX genes that help determine bone size/shape are highlighted we find that some were involved in the fusion allowing the inference that the rearrangement would have likely caused immediate morphological change to our limb structure:

Human:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/projects...hr=&strain=All

Chimp:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/projects...hr=&strain=All

What makes us human and a chimp a chimp is rather obvious to anyone who takes the time to look at the genetic evidence. It is not believing one side or another it is seeing for ourselves what is going on so we can honestly make up our own minds.

What is your coherent explanation for all this? Is this (or is this not) how the Creator works?
Reply

جوري
09-16-2009, 08:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Science101

What is your coherent explanation for all this? Is this (or is this not) how the Creator works?
My responses (some of them quite detailed) are given all throughout this forum and this very thread. You are right, folks are free to make up their mind.

unlike you, I don't feign to know how the creator works, but kudos that you do, perhaps you can go and create some Dr. Moreau and amuse us with your finds..




all the best!
Reply

Science101
09-17-2009, 01:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
My responses (some of them quite detailed) are given all throughout this forum and this very thread. You are right, folks are free to make up their mind.
Yes. With or without your input, they will make up their own minds.

format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
unlike you, I don't feign to know how the creator works
And from experience I can say you said that exactly like a true Atheist would.

format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
, but kudos that you do, perhaps you can go and create some Dr. Moreau and amuse us with your finds..
You even included an insult following the dodging of a serious question to impress your friends with. Only problem with that though, is it's still too obvious you are unable to provide an honest unbiased answer to a serious question.

format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
all the best!
Yes thanks, I'll keep the search for the Creator going in science for all those who have faith that we are more than a purposeless accident regardless of insults against even the teachings of Prophet Muhammad who said:

And in your creation, and the crawling things He has scattered abroad, there are signs for a people having sure faith; And in the alternation of night and day, and the provision God sends down from heaven, and therewith revives the earth after it is dead, and the turning about of the winds, there are signs for a people who understand. (45:3-5)
http://www.newstatesman.com/200404050019
Reply

جوري
09-17-2009, 02:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Science101
Yes. With or without your input, they will make up their own minds.
Indeed.. and I think the poll results are a nice echo of that!

And from experience I can say you said that exactly like a true Atheist would.
More like an honest realist!



You even included an insult following the dodging of a serious question to impress your friends with. Only problem with that though, is it's still too obvious you are unable to provide an honest unbiased answer to a serious question.
Neither are you, you simply delude yourself that you do and expect that others should subscribe to your delusions under some threat! It is surprising you haven't headed down to Stockholm to claim your Nobel yet oh glorious one. Again, come speak to me about how God works once you have invented a cure for the common cold before you take on creation and how God works.. what say you? just so we are not wasting everyone's time on an ego trip!



Yes thanks, I'll keep the search for the Creator going in science for all those who have faith that we are more than a purposeless accident regardless of insults against even the teachings of Prophet Muhammad who said:

And in your creation, and the crawling things He has scattered abroad, there are signs for a people having sure faith; And in the alternation of night and day, and the provision God sends down from heaven, and therewith revives the earth after it is dead, and the turning about of the winds, there are signs for a people who understand. (45:3-5)
http://www.newstatesman.com/200404050019
I don't understand, are you searching for a creator? just a paragraph ago you alleged to know how the creator works, and now you have moved backwards to search for him?

pls think before you hurl out massive logorrhea!

all the best on your quests!
Reply

AntiKarateKid
09-17-2009, 02:18 AM
Tell me again.

If Adam's creation was a miracle.
And miracles by definition don't conform to normal laws of the universe.
Why are we trying to find scientific evidence of Adam?

We aren't trying to analyze staffs like Moses used to see if they can part the Red Sea are we? Why make an exception for this?

I suspect it is because other religions have problems with it and Muslims start to think the same.
Reply

جوري
09-17-2009, 02:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Tell me again.

If Adam's creation was a miracle.
And miracles by definition don't conform to normal laws of the universe.
Why are we trying to find scientific evidence of Adam?

We aren't trying to analyze staffs like Moses used to see if they can part the Red Sea are we? Why make an exception for this?

I suspect it is because other religions have problems with it and Muslims start to think the same.
:sl:

I know enough about science wal7mdllilah to fully understand our limitations and crippling short falls. We are along way from curbing the sequella of very common things that send us to the grave and fail to even understand what causes them. Essential HTN for instance, we have fancy terms like 'idiopathic' to brand obscure causes of common every day things to allege to know how God works.

[3:47]--- Allah createth what He willeth: when He hath decreed a Plan, He but saith to it, `Be', and it is!


All the science and knowledge that we know, is innate in us and in and of itself is quite a miracle, not how we cultivate it, but the sense of wonder and love of learning:

2:31 And He taught Adam the names of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell Me the names of these if ye are right."


What we know, if what he willed for us to know. Coming from monkeys or donkeys or platypus or algae, is for the man who ceases the desire to know his creator or to live willing to accept that he isn't but a neglected petri dish.

if Allah swt willed us to come from Apes or to go back to Apes he'd decree it.

[5:60] Say: "Shall I point out to you something much worse than this, (as judged) by the treatment it received from Allah? Those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped Evil, these are (many times) worse in rank, and far more astray from the even Path!"


but here you have folks who believe that God transformed them by fusing chromosome number 2.. to which I say, you are entitled to your beliefs. Allah swt didn't let us in to the secret of creation whether he transformed us or made us in our current form, it really wouldn't matter.
What matters however, is that you know that Allah swt created us, and can create us in any form he desires!

:w:
Reply

Science101
09-17-2009, 03:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Tell me again.
Good questions! I need to have a go at them.

format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
If Adam's creation was a miracle.
And miracles by definition don't conform to normal laws of the universe.
Why are we trying to find scientific evidence of Adam?
In my case I did not look for evidence of Adam and Eve, the evidence came to me instead. I recognized what it meant then wrote it down.

It is also important to consider that without a genome you and I would not be here. And what sense is there for creating Adam and Eve with a miracle if it is then impossible for them to have children without more miracles for each one and their childrens children who would also have to be specially created too? From this problem we can conclude that Adam and Eve needed the human genome or else they could not give birth to descendents.

format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
We aren't trying to analyze staffs like Moses used to see if they can part the Red Sea are we? Why make an exception for this?
How the Red Sea could have been parted is one of the biggest mysteries of them all. The internet has many websites like this one that try to answer these questions:

http://www.geocities.com/athens/part...1/redsea6.html

format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
I suspect it is because other religions have problems with it and Muslims start to think the same.
Human beings have a need to search for knowledge. It is the way we are and we cannot change that. I found the reason for this to be in how we gauge failure or success:

From: http://theoryofid.blogspot.com/
Note: Videos are very clean and promote peace (not violence).

REQUIREMENT #3 of 4 - FEEDBACK TO GAUGE FAILURE AND SUCCESS
Confidence changing feedback which gauges failure and success is something we can consciously "feel". At our level we are consciously rewarded by "success" and feel punished by "failure". For that reason games and sports are very popular to achieve the euphoria that accompanies success.

By being able to "feel for others" we can share in the success or failure of another intelligence simply by watching them. We therefore have heroes who succeed and villains who fail us. In human culture this is well expressed as winning over the 1970's "pinball machine" that preceded home video games and personal computers. The pinball machine had to be fed quarters which in turn kept many teenagers out of spending money, which in turn helped make the impossible dream of being able to control the game for endless replays the ultimate success for many of that generation.

In the musical movie by the Who named "Tommy" is the song/scene "Tommy and the Pinball Machine" where a "deaf dumb and blind kid" that can only do one thing at all (get endless free games) first discovers a pinball machine that was luring him to wander off. After finding his "calling" the world "lights up" around him by that superhuman success of beating a machine that always eventually won having been achieved.

In reality the ability to fully control a pinball machine would not make it function without being plugged into an electrical outlet or can light up the air around them but our human intelligence abstracts things this way because of how the intelligence mechanism inherently seeks to as much as possible control other things and how increased confidence in reward for being able to do so feels good. And after spending much money attempting to control a pinball machine, human intelligence would then spend more money to see a confidence building movie that feels good by showing what that ultimate superhuman control over a controlling machine would look like when abstracted through art. Our intelligence here understands a reality by relating to something that in reality could not possibly happen. What is in human culture is here useful for explaining what is producing human intelligence by these expressions through the images that exist in its art.

Low confidence of repeated failure or being held down by others attempting to control us produces an imprisoning "bad feeling" that we will work very hard to "get free" from. This is expressed by the Tommy movie song "I'm Free" where he breaks through to the other side of the mirror he once endlessly stared into. The running through the world inviting all to join him then through scenes that resemble going back in time to a primordial planet is here an expression of confidence level suddenly greatly increasing.

Humans have such a need to fill memory with knowledge many feel incomplete especially when it comes to the "big questions" like where we came from and in time will go. Some may seek knowledge from history and/or religion. Scientists may try to answer that by searching for new knowledge scientifically, driven to keep taking their intellect and science to new levels. In fact, that powerful need for knowledge is why this theory exists. In human culture the search for knowledge is often expressed as climbing a mountain for the light of knowledge and wisdom as in the movie Tommy (The Who) - See Me, Feel Me - Listening to You (1975) where after following Tommy because of all wanting what he has tragedy forces aside the controlling of a game what once seemed important and Tommy must now run through the flames then on that long journey to the knowledge that all their lives they suffered to discover.
Reply

JaffaCake
09-17-2009, 12:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Thanks for the informative article, in a nut shell, this is adaptation. It isn't speciation.
Allow me to quote for you from the article mentioned above:

"Although genome duplication is relatively scarce in animals as compared to plants (Otto and Whitton 2000; Mable 2004), it plays a prominent role in speciation of the African clawed frogs of the pipid subfamily Xenopodinae (Xenopus and Silurana)"

"Silurana includes one diploid species with 20 chromosomes and three tetraploid species with 40 chromosomes. In Xenopus, tetraploids appear to have completely replaced diploids; this genus includes 10 tetraploid species with 36 chromosomes, 5 octoploid species with 72 chromosomes, and 2 dodecaploid species with 108 chromosomes (Kobel, Loumont, and Tinsley 1996)"
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
at the end of the day, the only outcome we see of actualized fusions/breaks/translocations are in fact detrimental!
That is to be expected when any evidence to the contrary is ignored.
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Many things that you deem 'remains' or 'rudimentary', prove to either have a purpose later on, misunderstood as to its nature-- some are simply nonfunctional for our current state of understanding.
Let me talk through this and see if I have understood you correctly.

Humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes and the organism which is genetically most similar to humans possesses 24 pairs of chromosomes. There are 2 pairs in that organism which do not have a direct analog in humans and a single pair in humans which does not have an analog in that organism. If you put the 2 pairs of chromosomes end to end, they look nearly identical to the 1 human pair. Where the 2 centromeres are there are two centromere sequences on the human chromosome. Where the ends meet there are two telomeric sequences joined end-to-end on the human chromosome.

For illustration so I can fully grasp this:

C = Centromere, T = Telomere, P = Pre-telomere sequence

Closest primate:
TP--------C--PT . . . TP---C------------PT

Human:
TP--------C--PTTP---C------------PT

So what you're saying is that these structures are... coincidentally in the same place, coincidentally have the same sequences, the structures were designed like that to serve some other purpose of which we are unaware?
Why would a designer create a structure that looks exactly like a fusion event?
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
You want to believe you have descended from apes.. be my guest, no one is forcing you to change your beliefs! we share 35% of out genes with algae or bananas and 82% are shared with the platypus-- did the Apes result from a fusion on the platypus and before the platypus bananas and before the banana some algae?
I don't believe we descended from apes, we have a common ancestor. That ancestor might have been ape-like, but not the same as the apes of today unless they have undergone no variation in the last million years.

No one is suggesting that platypuses evolved from bananas or any such thing. The platypus and the banana are modern organisms that share ancestry, but their closest mutual relation is further back in time than the platypus and other mammals. An analogy would be the way in which you are more genetically similar to your siblings than your fifth cousin.
Reply

Sanguis Deus
09-17-2009, 03:39 PM
Not sure if endogenous retroviruses have been mentioned here, yet, but I feel they should be.

An ERV is a virus that integrates its own genome into that of its host. The specific part of the host's genome that the ERV selects is random. Once the ERV has left its genome in the host's, the host copies it along with the host's own genome, through mitosis or meiosis. The ERV becomes a permanent part of the host's genome.

Say this is the ERV's genome:

A-C-A-A-G-T
T-G-T-T-C-A

And this is a part of the the host's genome:

T-T-A-G-C-A-G-C-T-A
A-A-T-C-G-T-C-G-A-T

Once the ERV integrates itself into the host, the host's genome could look like this (I've made the ERV bold):

T-T-A-G-A-C-A-A-G-T-C-A-G-C-T-A
A-A-T-C-T-G-T-T-C-A-G-T-C-G-A-T

But just as easily, it could look like:

T-T-A-G-C-A-G-C-A-C-A-A-G-T-T-A
A-A-T-C-G-T-C-G-T-G-T-T-C-A-A-T

Because these ERV markers (The bold bits) are now a permanent part of the host's genetic material, it will always get passed down to the next generation, which will then be passed onto the next generation. 500 generations later, and there's nothing stopping the ERV markers from being present, still.

Pick 10 numbers between 1 and 2 billion.
Now get a stranger to do the same.

You stand the same chance of picking a number the same as a single ERV stands of picking the same spot in two almost identical genomes.

You stand the same chance of picking the same 10 numbers, in the same order, as an ERV stands of picking the same 10 spots in two separate genomes.

However, if these two genomes share a common ancestor, then the ERVs will get passed down, and be in both genomes, in exactly the same place.

We share lots of ERV markers with chimpanzees.

The only way that could happen, is if us and chimps had a common ancestor, which was the original host of the ERV.

Just to add, Gossamer, as Jaffa so eloquently put it, we didn't evolve from apes. We are still apes. Just as a Doberman is no less a dog than an Irish Wolf Hound, or a lion is no less a cat than a tiger. We share about 95% of our genome with chimpanzees, of all the other great apes, they're our closest relatives.
Reply

Sanguis Deus
09-17-2009, 03:41 PM
Argh, can't find an edit button. It should be:

"Pick 10 numbers between 1 and 3 billion.
Now get a stranger to do the same."

not

"Pick 10 numbers between 1 and 2 billion.
Now get a stranger to do the same."
Reply

جوري
09-17-2009, 05:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by JaffaCake
Allow me to quote for you from the article mentioned above:

"Although genome duplication is relatively scarce in animals as compared to plants (Otto and Whitton 2000; Mable 2004)
I have briefed over the article the term scarce is operative and what it applies to doesn't denote that one should make the same inference about all else!
also, I am still not quite sure why you are so gung ho about unrelated articles from which I am to magically draw some desired conclusions. Viruses by the same token 'speciate', however they are not considered living organisms.
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HT...question/1854/
are we examining the likeness of macrobiotics to labyrinthitis, what is your point?


, it plays a prominent role in speciation of the African clawed frogs of the pipid subfamily Xenopodinae (Xenopus and Silurana)
"
Can we see how the frogs differed before from after? If due to some anomaly, a person ends up with Syndactyly





can I call it speciation from the centuries when we were aquatic animals or simply what it is as caused by the dysregulation of interdigital apoptosis? quoting me the term 'speciation' as the author favored I fear doesn't have the impact nor the relation you desire for the point you are aiming for!




That is to be expected when any evidence to the contrary is ignored.
Let me talk through this and see if I have understood you correctly.
Perhaps you need to redefine your terms.
With 'Evidence' one expects the truth investigated judicially and evidence established or disproved.
The same way you need to familiarize yourself with marco vs micro-evolution, you need to likewise familiarize yourself the difference between empiricism vs incontrovertible facts!



Humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes and the organism which is genetically most similar to humans possesses 24 pairs of chromosomes. There are 2 pairs in that organism which do not have a direct analog in humans and a single pair in humans which does not have an analog in that organism. If you put the 2 pairs of chromosomes end to end, they look nearly identical to the 1 human pair. Where the 2 centromeres are there are two centromere sequences on the human chromosome. Where the ends meet there are two telomeric sequences joined end-to-end on the human chromosome.

For illustration so I can fully grasp this:

C = Centromere, T = Telomere, P = Pre-telomere sequence

Closest primate:
TP--------C--PT . . . TP---C------------PT

Human:
TP--------C--PTTP---C------------PT

So what you're saying is that these structures are... coincidentally in the same place, coincidentally have the same sequences, the structures were designed like that to serve some other purpose of which we are unaware?
Why would a designer create a structure that looks exactly like a fusion event?
I don't believe we descended from apes, we have a common ancestor. That ancestor might have been ape-like, but not the same as the apes of today unless they have undergone no variation in the last million years.
a few points:
1- Coincidentally in the same place ( who says it is a coincident?) I have already asserted that there isn't much variance between any organisms in this planet. We are composed of the same elements, in whatever arrangement.
2- not the same as the apes of today ( perhaps the most important of all, is how you can make such definitive statements about something that is no longer in existence and expect that anyone should subscribe to it as a definitive fact?!
3-Why would a designer create a structure that looks exactly like a fusion event ( I must admit this is the most inane question I have come across and there is no shortage. You can't possibly expect anyone to answer you, how or why the 'designer creates as he does?) If you carry that question further to include the 3-30 million species (Erwin 1983, Wolosz 1988) in existence as well the periodic elements of which some are noble, you'll have more questions than answers, which even your miltonic brains will be at a loss to explain!
http://animals.about.com/b/2007/08/1...s-on-earth.htm
No one is suggesting that platypuses evolved from bananas or any such thing. The platypus and the banana are modern organisms that share ancestry, but their closest mutual relation is further back in time than the platypus and other mammals. An analogy would be the way in which you are more genetically similar to your siblings than your fifth cousin.
from what did the ancestry originate? how did the early cells assemble, what is the driving force behind the continued evolution, is it an advancing event? how often should we expect to evolve? is it possible to de-evolve at some points such as happens with diamonds back to graphite:

http://prao.aps.org/story/v22/st5

Why is death a part of evolution, seems like a self-defeating event especially when at a crucial point where death could potentially halt the progression to something more favorable! How do we decide what is favorable, in other words what it is the advantage about being human over being an Ape of common ancestry?
only fair questions when you bring frogs and plants and chromosome number II to the picture that we have many unanswered questions!


all the best
Reply

Sanguis Deus
09-17-2009, 07:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
from what did the ancestry originate? how did the early cells assemble, what is the driving force behind the continued evolution, is it an advancing event? how often should we expect to evolve? is it possible to de-evolve at some points such as happens with diamonds back to graphite:
How far back do you want to go?

The first cells were little more than the self-replicating ribonucleic acid, contained in a fatty acid lipid.

If two of these cells came into contact, then the one that contained the larger amount of RNA would absorb the fatty acids from the other cell's lipid. As the RNA grew, the shell needed to grow too, so the one with more RNA would've absorbed the lipid from the other one, increasing the size of its own shell. As it grows, parts of it break off, forming new cells, with a copy of the genetic material.

Already you've got a "cell" that can replicate itself, genetic material included, and a "cell" that needs smaller cells to absorb, to keep on growing.

It's pretty complicated, and a a lot factors into it, such as what chemicals certain lipids would allow into the shell, whether or not the chemicals, when forming RNA would double over and loop, things liek that that would effect how much the genetic material replicated.

If it's single-celled organisms becoming multi cellular organisms, well, there's two ways it can happen. There are some species of single celled organisms that do it, and single cellular to multi cellular evolution has been witnessed in a lab.

Here's the one that was most likely the first:

As a cell divides, it's possible for a small part of the new cell to remain attached to the old one. Obviously, this isn't actually a single organism, because there's no communication between the two cells. But because these two cells are now bigger, they would be better adapted to survive, because they're much harder for other cells to "eat", so over time, they'd get more and more advanced at being attached together. They'll grow new cells that won't detach, like the original two, and that'll happen a lot, until you've got a lot of related cells, all with the same genetic code, all attached together. It'd only be a matter of time until communication between the individual cells developed.

And well, that's pretty much the beginning of our ancestry.

The "advancing force" is simply to survive and copy as much genetic material as possible.

It's not possible to de-evolve, either, that'd mean having to lose genetic material in the order you gained it, and considering mutations are random, the chances of that happening are astronomical. Although, our DNA houses most of the traits we've had throughout our entire ancestry, so occasionally you end up with things like atavism, where these genes regress back to an earlier stage in their evolutionary history. Such as dolphins with hind limbs, humans with fully functional tails, snakes with legs or birds with teeth. What you'll never see, though, is an atavism which an animal has never had in its evolutionary history. You'll never see a hippo with feathers, or a komodo dragon with mammary glands or hair follicles.
Reply

جوري
09-17-2009, 08:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sanguis Deus
How far back do you want to go?
The start of how it all began it is really quite a simple query. Can you prove it and account for every finite detail of it, not just to extend from a unicellular organism moving in a uni-direction to give us one complex being, but do it for the millions of species that exist in a logical scientific manner?

The first cells were little more than the self-replicating ribonucleic acid, contained in a fatty acid lipid.
Where did the RNA and fatty acids come from? how did they know how to assemble as they have? and how did they give rise to all else? for instance in the 7000000BC the cell decided to produce cerebroside-sulfatase so that it can break down cerebroside 3-sulfate? and pls carry that for every biochemical reaction and end product as to cement your thoughts with a probable mechanism and plausible reasons if you want to discuss science, not science fiction!
If two of these cells came into contact, then the one that contained the larger amount of RNA would absorb the fatty acids from the other cell's lipid. As the RNA grew, the shell needed to grow too, so the one with more RNA would've absorbed the lipid from the other one, increasing the size of its own shell. As it grows, parts of it break off, forming new cells, with a copy of the genetic material.
This is is no more mindless drivel, you are barely working on the function of one cell and all of a sudden another cell came into existence and grew from what material? how about their chance encounter for agamogenesis or whatever other mechanism for growth again the year 8000000bc the cell decided it needed to sprout wings so it took on a few more base pairs to increase its size from what? what raw material and what is the drive? Not every protein is functional. So there was some cognitive drive to allow for functional proteins and functional enzymes all of them knowing which proteins to code for and which to silent, so that proteins making collagen wouldn't produce urea even though each cell carries the entire genome.
Already you've got a "cell" that can replicate itself, genetic material included, and a "cell" that needs smaller cells to absorb, to keep on growing.
I don't think you quite know how many functions occur in one cell or their very ordered assembly nor have you accounted for where inception of where the genetic material came from as we must assume it ex nihilio given that much of what is in existence today wasn't always in existence.. what you have written here requires little mental effort, I think my 4 year old niece can come up with something more imaginative and yet you expect others to subscribe to this as sound science? .
It's pretty complicated, and a a lot factors into it, such as what chemicals certain lipids would allow into the shell, whether or not the chemicals, when forming RNA would double over and loop, things liek that that would effect how much the genetic material replicated.
Yes, it is indeed pretty complicated, so how about you account for them in lieu of expecting us to subscribe to your beliefs at face value?

If it's single-celled organisms becoming multi cellular organisms, well, there's two ways it can happen. There are some species of single celled organisms that do it, and single cellular to multi cellular evolution has been witnessed in a lab.
Let's see it then!
Let's see how the RNA began life on its own volition with no manipulation or additions or hosts to foster its function!


And well, that's pretty much the beginning of our ancestry.

The "advancing force" is simply to survive and copy as much genetic material as possible.
for what purpose? we'd have been more successful as algae or cockroaches than human beings!

It's not possible to de-evolve, either, that'd mean having to lose genetic material in the order you gained it, and considering mutations are random, the chances of that happening are astronomical. Although, our DNA houses most of the traits we've had throughout our entire ancestry, so occasionally you end up with things like atavism, where these genes regress back to an earlier stage in their evolutionary history. Such as dolphins with hind limbs, humans with fully functional tails, snakes with legs or birds with teeth. What you'll never see, though, is an atavism which an animal has never had in its evolutionary history. You'll never see a hippo with feathers, or a komodo dragon with mammary glands or hair follicles.
So it is astronomical to de-evolve but not astronomical to evolve even though we are using the exact same mechanisms? I mean technically you haven't accounted for how said astronomical functions came about in the first place to speak of their loss and we actually see things that de-evolve after evolving, and I have given the example of diamonds going back to graphite! Why not for humans too?

You should think a little before you write!

I don't want to go far with your opinion and personal beliefs, can we see some peer reviewed articles? something akin to this:

http://www.iscid.org/papers/Mullan_P...ell_112302.pdf

or this
http://arxiv.org/ftp/q-bio/papers/0603/0603005.pdf

just so we are not wasting each others time with faithful impressions!


all the best!
Reply

JaffaCake
09-17-2009, 11:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
a person ends up with Syndactyly
Irrelevant.
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
the term scarce is operative
Doesn't matter if it happened a trillion times or just once, it's still more than you say is possible.
Why not just stop beating about the bush and say that anyone who claims to have studied something and come to a conclusion which contradicts your beliefs is a liar or incompetent. It's just not truuuuueeee, they're all liars. The evil academic journals publish thousands of fake articles every year to cover up the real truth of creation!
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
With 'Evidence' one expects the truth investigated judicially and evidence established or disproved.
I'm still waiting for an explanation of your position regarding human chromosome 2 that meets these standards. I've posted links to papers describing what is now an established fact, but your responses tend to be something like "hey, we're all made up of the same stuff". If you know of any studies which cast doubt on the human chromosome 2 fusion event, let's see them.
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
The same way you need to familiarize yourself with marco vs micro-evolution, you need to likewise familiarize yourself the difference between empiricism vs incontrovertible facts!
Don't presume to preach to others when you are unable to grasp simple concepts or refuse to do so in order that your happy little worldview is not shattered.
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
a few points:1- Coincidentally in the same place (who says it is a coincident?) I have already asserted that there isn't much variance between any organisms in this planet. We are composed of the same elements, in whatever arrangement.
2- not the same as the apes of today ( perhaps the most important of all, is how you can make such definitive statements about something that is no longer in existence and expect that anyone should subscribe to it as a definitive fact?!
3-Why would a designer create a structure that looks exactly like a fusion event ( I must admit this is the most inane question I have come across and there is no shortage. You can't possibly expect anyone to answer you, how or why the 'designer creates as he does?) If you carry that question further to include the 3-30 million species (Erwin 1983, Wolosz 1988) in existence as well the periodic elements of which some are noble, you'll have more questions than answers, which even your miltonic brains will be at a loss to explain!
1) There's a difference between sharing 50% of your DNA with a plant and having a near identical gene sequence and structure as another organism, complete with visible joined telomeres.
2) I qualified my statement, you ignored that. Surprise, surprise.
3) I'm not expecting you to probe the mind of God, but put yourself in that position. If you were designing an organism, why would you make it look like it happened some other way? Why would you design a human chromosome that looks exactly as if it was the fusion of two primate chromosomes?
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
only fair questions when you bring frogs and plants and chromosome number II to the picture that we have many unanswered questions!
Interesting questions indeed, but let's deal with the topic at hand. I've been talking about chromosome 2 since my first post in this thread and still haven't heard any sense out of you. I know you'd like to avoid it and move onto something more speculative and therefore easier to brush aside to reinforce your own opinion, but I'd rather stick with it for now.
Reply

جوري
09-18-2009, 01:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by JaffaCake
Irrelevant.Doesn't matter if it happened a trillion times or just once, it's still more than you say is possible.
as relevant as frog evolution to human speciation, a million times or zero times still shows no relevance to the topic at hand!

Why not just stop beating about the bush and say that anyone who claims to have studied something and come to a conclusion which contradicts your beliefs is a liar or incompetent. It's just not truuuuueeee, they're all liars. The evil academic journals publish thousands of fake articles every year to cover up the real truth of creation!
Actually the same can be said of you of the two journals which I have presented here in relation to both evolution from a unicellular organism and well the view from statistical physics which you have failed to even acknowledge-- can the same be said, that you are neither familiar with science or like to argue against articles that oppose your personal beliefs?


http://www.iscid.org/papers/Mullan_P...ell_112302.pdf
http://arxiv.org/ftp/q-bio/papers/0603/0603005.pdf


I'm still waiting for an explanation of your position regarding human chromosome 2 that meets these standards. I've posted links to papers describing what is now an established fact, but your responses tend to be something like "hey, we're all made up of the same stuff". If you know of any studies which cast doubt on the human chromosome 2 fusion event, let's see them.
I have already stated my opinion on the matter and repeatedly.

first I'll introduce an analogy, perhaps breaking things down to the lowest common denominator would suit you best then I'll leave with my stand on the matter as I have in fact written before:

for simplicity sake, let's take Dr. John Sampson's theory of retrograde menstruation as a cause of endometriosis, seems plausible for all intensive purposes, that blood traveling backwards carrying in its midst endometrial cells, can implant itself in the vicinity, and this endometrial like tissue acts very much like the linning of the uterus, responding to hormones and may shed from where it shouldn't cause various other nuisances to millions of women-- well how does this theory reconcile for women who have retrograde menses but never develop endometriosis? or how does it reconcile it for women who devlop endometriosis in the lung or the nose or the liver, far away from uterine blood? Someone else sits down and challenges the theory, states no it is spread via lymphatics, another says it is iatrogenic due to doctor error, no it is environmental, no cells can naturally morph into others as a result of hormone therapy, no it is auto-immune in origin, no it favors only hispanic women because of genetics.. Do we actually know? we can theorize, and the theories appear very plausible and by folks who have earned their place in the scientific community, but we don't peddle theories as facts and then impugn those who theorize differently...You'd be interested to know that today the theory most people accept is Dr. Sampson's, but the question marks are left in the areas that his theory fails to address!

now for what I have actually written as pertains to your chromosome II, since frankly you don't have the 'Ancestor' for a live comparison, and the apes you have in existence can be just as easily manipulated in the laboratory using vectors, E.coli bacteria or liposomes or a host of other means so that you can turn this into an incontrovertible fact! i.e to make a statement or assertion of verified data not to hypothesize I'd urge you to refine your definitions as to not cry later when someone doesn't agree with you or sweep it under some self-satisfied simple-minded conclusion as only atheists can come up with!

Gossamer skye The article is based on empiricism--terms used in said articles such as 'the putative nature is unknown' and 'suggesting that the telomeres at the extreme end may have been involved' from what you cited are your clue euphemisms for empiricism-- from which at the end you are left to draw your own conclusions. The fact that you already have Apes living side by side us and can use the same suggested means to fuse centromeric or telmoeric ends to yield the same results as theorized to actualize your beliefs should carry this to the next level rather than make it the new toy for a playground of amateurs on some public blog and since the beliefs in said case are indeed ever changing at one point it was rapid bursts of genetic changes causing speciation and now it is a mere a series of jumps and fusions with long static periods perhaps in the future it will be something else all together...... and in the end there is no reason or drive for these successive events to have taken place, in other words we'd probably have been more successful as a species of algae or cockroaches than destructive humans with sentience which evolved from God knows what... but that is not our topic however what is important is that you not subscribe to this as you would a religion lest you end up with a foot in your mouth ten years down the line.. until such a time you reference me to an article with a sort of hard core data, everything you write here about flies and frogs and one large chromosome is an effort in futility.

at the end of the day, the only outcome we see of actualized fusions/breaks/translocations are in fact detrimental!
Thus, if you want to loan your tantrums some credibility at least quote me correctly instead of introducing the same argument a colorful different ways, might it elicit a desired response!


--, but I'd rather stick with it for now.
Until such a time you carry on with some intellectual integrity and proper citation to loan some purpose and credence to what you are controverting, I suggest you stick with the topic with a party enamored by your interests and actually cares!

I don't subscribe to speciation not because it is against religion, but because it isn't scientifically solid. And have already stated repeatedly whether evolution is God's way of doing things, or some other means (as I have quoted directly from the Quran) it wouldn't change things one bit. I'd rather be more concerned if I were still stuck as the which came first the chicken or the egg and then try to drive it forward from that point!

all the best
Reply

Science101
09-18-2009, 02:40 AM
Gossamer, it is good that you do not blindly follow the science crowd. But with the way JaffaCake made it real easy by saying the following, I was hoping you would do better on that one!

format_quote Originally Posted by JaffaCake
Why would a designer create a structure that looks exactly like a fusion event?
You can just say because "that is how the Creator works". And no matter what science discovers in the future "that is how the Creator works" which is a good thing because the best from science is yet to come. Some are following a mystery where there is very real intelligence in where we came from that goes right into consciousness and everything beyond. But it requires readjusting to the idea that the genome of Adam and Eve is in all of us right now, which is better than their not being there anyway.

On the previous page I linked to the human and chimp genomes that are in the NCBI database showing chromosomes with markers at HOX genes which help control limb structure. And hope I can nominate Sanguis (welcome to the forum!) to figure out how to get markers on some of the ERV's or something so that none here have to take the word of someone else they can see it in as much detail as they want.

And I liked the picture of the chromosomes and the links to the NCBI genomes so much I added my response to you into the subsection of the theory that has Chromosomal Adam and Eve in it then rewrote some so it will all together explain more detail about what I think is happening. So at least you helped advance the intelligence theory! Thanks for that. I'll post the improved explanation of the very conclusive evidence that cannot be ignored by changing the subject to what none yet know. We must all honestly focus on what science does very clearly show, then go from there. So here's what I have so far. If you have any scientific evidence to the contrary or adds detail then I will change accordingly.

From:
http://theoryofid.blogspot.com/

Chromosome Speciation (fast - Human, Fruit Fly, Mosquito)

There is chromosome fission speciation which is the result of a chromosome division where they break apart. Chromosomes are also able to relocate parts of themselves on or in other chromosomes (translocations). And the origin of human chromosome #2 is from our chromosome fusion speciation[17] where two joined to become our second largest which in turn led to the 46 chromosome human genome that only humans have.

Phylogenetic evidence indicates a good number of successful chromosome fusions and rearrangements as well as duplications of whole or parts of chromosomes so that complexity increases by starting with what works then readapting for use in another area of the cell nucleus (not leaving it up to random chance). The intelligence mechanism is here taking good guesses. What worked before in a similar situation is copied. Or memory can be moved around which in 3D changes physical location (in nucleus) addressing characteristics.

In human chromosomal fusion speciation there was a "head-to-head telomeric fusion". Telomeres at each end of the 2 chromosomes likely became sticky, possibly by removal of repeating code that forms a protective layer which makes the ends not-sticky. Then when not-sticky ends are in close enough proximity molecular forces of attraction take over then fusion occurs as shown below in Human Chromosome #2.



Side by side comparison of Human and Chimpanzee chromosomes.
http://www.thetech.org/genetics/ask.php?id=69

When the locations of HOX genes that help determine bone size/shape are highlighted we find that some were involved in the fusion allowing the inference that the rearrangement would cause some immediate morphological change to limb structure[26]:

Human:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/projects...hr=&strain=All

Chimp:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/projects...hr=&strain=All

Even though there was not a significant amount of gene scrambling at the fusion site the rearranging of the chromosome territories alone could produce a noticeable enough of a morphological change that the adults would know there was something special and different about them.

The first fused chromosome is in either allele (mother or father) of the haploid (has one of two sets of chromosomes) germ cell (egg or sperm) that divides down to develop into a 47 chromosome heterozygote (alleles are different not homozygous where allele pair each the same) humanoid that has the human chromosome #2 being expressed along with copy of the two chromosomes with no fusion that provides all that the cell had before so it is not a sudden unsurvivable change. The new fused chromosome is controllable through epigenetic systems to immediately reregulate genes to a successful balance. We now have the first human Chromosome #2.

Next, the fused chromosome replicates in the population as follows:

48 and 48 parents produce a 48 offspring only.
48 and 47 parents produce a 48 or 47 offspring.
47 and 47 parents produce a 48 or 47 or 46 human offspring.
47 and 46 parents produce a 47 or 46 human offspring.
46 and 46 parents produce a 46 human offspring only.

The first 46 chromosome humans who were born to the existing 47 chromosome lineage may have right away been fertile, or at first had sterility problems in which case human chromosome #2 had to first learn to survive to replicate without the unfused chromosomes of the other allele there to help maintain proper cell functions. It would then become increasingly difficult for a 46 to reproduce with 48 and possibly 47 in part because along with the new genome design came a new self-image that made the 48's look "apish" and 47's relatively "unattractive" to 46's.

Where "human" is defined as having the unique 46 chromosome genome design that separates us from 47 and 48 ancestors there was a first human couple in our ancestry that was already fully human. There is here a human man and a woman Chromosomal Adam and Eve who together could only produce 46 chromosome descendants whose children would prefer to be with their own kind as would their children's children through time, all the way from them to us.

Reply

جوري
09-18-2009, 05:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Science101
Gossamer, it is good that you do not blindly follow the science crowd. But with the way JaffaCake made it real easy by saying the following, I was hoping you would do better on that one!
Oh forgive me, after a day of fasting and work and very little sleep that is all the enthusiasm I can muster for atheists!
I am sure you'll go for the jugular with your snazzy sketched shirts!

all the best
Reply

Science101
09-18-2009, 10:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Oh forgive me, after a day of fasting and work and very little sleep that is all the enthusiasm I can muster for atheists!
I am sure you'll go for the jugular with your snazzy sketched shirts!

all the best
I did not know you were so stressed out! And I hope you're not thinking that I'm an Atheist. My work has me labeled a Creationist, nutter, IDiot, thumper and all that. I am already having enough of an identity crisis!

To be more informative I'll post the monkey-to-man type image that the one above is to help correct:


http://www.sedaliademocrat.com/news/...span-font.html

When you carefully compare the two the differences should become noticeable. In what I drew we so suddenly appeared, it is like making fun of this design (even though other is only being more precise).

I would rather make one that has both man and woman so that Chromosomal Adam and Eve will be in the picture. But this is a good start towards changing long held scientific perceptions. So hopefully you'll soon be rested and recharged then right away notice what is different about it. I'll be patient.
Reply

جوري
09-18-2009, 10:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Science101
I did not know you were so stressed out! And I hope you're not thinking that I'm an Atheist.

I lost my uncle today.. isn't life the exception? it evanesces before we can make sense of it.. I am not aggrieved by anything atheists or creationists believe or do. Each person has to make sense of his or her own life, it isn't a communal effort!

6:68 When thou seest men engaged in vain discourse about Our Signs, turn away from them unless they turn to a different theme. If Satan ever makes thee forget, then after recollection, sit not thou in the company of those who do wrong.


74: 35 This is but one of the mighty (portents),
36 A warning to mankind,-
37 To any of you that chooses to press forward, or to follow behind;-
38 Every soul will be (held) in pledge for its deeds.


all the best!
Reply

Science101
09-18-2009, 10:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I lost my uncle today.. isn't life the exception? it evanesces before we can make sense of it..
My condolences to you and the family. It is so sad that life is so short, sometimes so uncertain. Almost like a price we must pay for there to be life at all. I hope we eventually find out is the only thing we can ever forever experience. My best will be with you and all through your crises.

format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I am not aggrieved by anything atheists or creationists believe or do. Each person has to make sense of his or her own life, it isn't a communal effort!

6:68 When thou seest men engaged in vain discourse about Our Signs, turn away from them unless they turn to a different theme. If Satan ever makes thee forget, then after recollection, sit not thou in the company of those who do wrong.

74: 35 This is but one of the mighty (portents),
36 A warning to mankind,-
37 To any of you that chooses to press forward, or to follow behind;-
38 Every soul will be (held) in pledge for its deeds.

all the best!
That is what I was hoping for, a great reply! And in a funny way "intelligence" is such a "controlling" thing that we cannot help share ideas in hope of making others think like us. It's in a way bad to be so inherently controlling but then again if we were not then none of us would be here wanting to share ideas that help us make sense of life. Have to take the good and the bad, again. Be glad for what we have...
Reply

tetsujin
09-29-2009, 12:00 AM
For the original post:

Yes.

It's not a "belief in" as much as an "acceptance of".

Anatomical/molecular vestiges
endogenous retroviruses
mitochondrial DNA
...


Probably mentioned, but it has nothing to do with the existence of a "creator".


All the best,

~Faysal
Reply

Raphael
10-28-2009, 06:09 PM
Do people who vote 'yes' or 'no' do so based on preconceived personal beliefs, or based on evidence?

I have a feeling personal inclinations affect the choice for both swings.
Reply

OurIslamic
11-08-2009, 04:32 PM
No such thing as evolution.
Reply

Trumble
11-08-2009, 07:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Raphael
Do people who vote 'yes' or 'no' do so based on preconceived personal beliefs, or based on evidence?
I don't think it's quite either. Existing beliefs prejudice, at least to some extent, the evidence that is selected for consideration.
Reply

Raphael
11-08-2009, 07:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
I don't think it's quite either. Existing beliefs prejudice, at least to some extent, the evidence that is selected for consideration.
Usually its the faithful who are notorious in selecting evidence which supports their belief and discarding everything else.
Reply

Trumble
11-08-2009, 11:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Raphael
Usually its the faithful who are notorious in selecting evidence which supports their belief and discarding everything else.
True, but the honest atheist must almost admit they are not immune!
Reply

Eliphaz
11-09-2009, 02:16 AM
I think I said yes but I can't remember. But to be honest I'm not a scientist, I am just a mere mortal, and therefore half of this thread makes no sense to me whatsoever. Secondly, the existence or lack of existence of evolution has no bearing on my religion or my belief that God exists, therefore I honestly couldn't care less from a religious standpoint.
Reply

tetsujin
11-09-2009, 03:51 AM
An atheist doesn't necessarily have to accept evolution. That's the problem with categorizing "the others". There are people who do not believe in god but hold views of other supernatural forces at work as if there was some cosmological constant that kept everything in balance. Some atheists are willing to believe in homeopathic cancer medication or astrology.

Honesty wouldn't be the right word for someone who can admit they can be wrong. Some people honestly think they couldn't be wrong. There is a degree of critical thinking required to realize that dogmatic predispositions will affect one's ability to assess new information. Whether that takes the form of religion or other new/old age dogmatism makes no difference in my view.

All the best,


Faysal
Reply

Raphael
11-09-2009, 02:52 PM
Trumble - Atheists at times can be notoriously snobbish. This is also understandable at certain times when the people they are speaking to are almost child like in clinging on to their faith. No one is immune as you said. It is only when people believe in absolutes that problems occur.

Omar - scientists too are mere mortals! I think your standpoint is the best to adopt. Faith is faith. Only when people bring in pseudo science garbage to "disprove" evolution do things become embarrassing.

Tetsujin - everyone has a religion, maybe not in the conventional sense. Religion is essentially used to dictate peoples thought, and the proof is all around this forum, and any other religious forum. This is not a trademark of religion- although they are its founders.
Reply

tetsujin
11-09-2009, 11:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Raphael
Tetsujin - everyone has a religion, maybe not in the conventional sense.
Everyone? Please define your use of the word 'religion' in the non-conventional sense.


If by religion you mean 'principles' or 'social values' I wouldn't disagree. But as with many other words, 'religion' has several connotations which are reserved for certain purposes.


I think it benefits the believers to withhold the use of the word 'religion' when referring to non-believers as that inevitably erases the lines which divide believers and non-believers based on incompatible principles. Otherwise, you have the circuitous route of trying to argue that all religion is not bad, and that certain religions are good, and the counter-balancing arguments waste more time than necessary when the believers really didn't mean "religion" at the start. I think we're better off recognizing that the differences exist, and try to label them as such.

If you meant that everyone is susceptible to doctrinal dogmatism, then I've already conceded that.

What did you mean by 'Religion is essentially used to dictate peoples thought'? Are our thoughts not our own, even if they conform to another ideology to which we are already predisposed?


All the best,


Faysal
Reply

جوري
11-10-2009, 12:15 AM
any institution that expresses a belief in something is a religion.. atheists contend the belief that there is NO GOD, however haven't established substantial scientific proof to account for anything in existence sans the divine in essence holding on to a universal negative as any unlearned religious zealot .. wouldn't you classify that as dogmatic?
When they become organized or even hold atheists state (such as with Enver Hoxha) they in fact are dictators and dictate to the people their thoughts and actions minus the all important altruism factor that at least most religions feign for a foundation, as a result you get 15 million dead, 20 million dead, five million dead without the blink of an eye...

so yes, Atheism is a religion and a belief system as any other with many sects and deviations, only its foundations and principles are undignified, and strip humanity of something very essential rendering them at a level no higher than mere animals while insinuating themselves in every portal not so much to cast doubt, rather from what appears to the rest out of being in a state of total discontent and having the desire for everyone else to be in the same dissatisfied state along side them..

all the best indeed..
Reply

tetsujin
11-12-2009, 03:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
any institution that expresses a belief in something is a religion..
Really? Have you changed your mind? I hope you don’t recall the our recent discussion regarding Scientology as a new religious movement vs cult, maybe it slipped your mind.
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
The definitions of cults vs. religion has several criteria, and unfortunately for 'Scientologists' their practices and numbers doesn't qualify them as a religion.
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
The number of adherents is a factor in what goes into the definition of cult vs. religion but not all that goes into that def...

...there are at least some basic tenets that are universally accepted and pass not only as pillars of religion but acceptable social mores which this particular cult exempts itself from...

...religion isn't a catchall phrase to describe any adherents, anymore than an aspirin cures all kind of headaches... all the best
I don't bring this up to be pedantic, this is very important. Is Scientology an institution? If so, did you change your mind about its status as a religion, or do you have some other definition of “institution” as well? If not, what am I (or your fellow believers) to make of your statements when you are willing to butcher a language to make some inconsequential point?


format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
atheists contend the belief that there is NO GOD, however haven't established substantial scientific proof to account for anything in existence sans the divine in essence holding on to a universal negative as any unlearned religious zealot .. wouldn't you classify that as dogmatic?
It is during discussions like these when I wish we didn’t need a word for non-belief in god. Atheism is not a “contention”. Atheists withhold belief in a deity until sufficient evidence is provided. Do people who withhold a belief that Elvis Presley is alive also fall under the category of religious zealots? They haven’t come up with any substantial scientific proof to account forthe death of “sans Elvis Presley”.
Do we also call those who don’t believe in astrology, karma, chakras, or telekinesis, until sufficient evidence is provided, religious zealots or dogmatists? I hope your answer is that we wouldn’t.
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
When they become organized or even hold atheists state (such as with Enver Hoxha) they in fact are dictators and dictate to the people their thoughts and actions minus the all important altruism factor that at least most religions feign for a foundation, as a result you get 15 million dead, 20 million dead, five million dead without the blink of an eye...
This is an entirely different argument. First of all, I haven’t said that atheism necessarily leads to a particular type or form of government or a particular social ideology or anything other than a lack of belief in god.
There are many different ways in which people can argue for religion. You can argue that it is true, or that it is useful or necessary, or that non-belief or the rejection of god/religion is also religious or dogmatic. Even if atheism lead to a totally corrupt society (which is not inherent or obvious) or that atheism is another religion or dogmatic (again not inherent or obvious), how does that help your argument in any way?

What do you achieve by charging atheists with religion-like dogmatism? What do you achieve by charging particular atheists with murder or oppression?
I don’t see how that helps your argument in any way.

format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
so yes, Atheism is a religion and a belief system as any other with many sects and deviations, only its foundations and principles are undignified, and strip humanity of something very essential rendering them at a level no higher than mere animals while insinuating themselves in every portal not so much to cast doubt, rather from what appears to the rest out of being in a state of total discontent and having the desire for everyone else to be in the same dissatisfied state along side them..
Your opinion is irrelevant. Again, if you’re arguing that you find contentment in religion that does not mean it is true.

All the best,


Faysal
Reply

جوري
11-12-2009, 04:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin
Really? Have you changed your mind? I hope you don’t recall the our recent discussion regarding Scientology as a new religious movement vs cult, maybe it slipped your mind.
How is this of relevance?
I don't bring this up to be pedantic, this is very important. Is Scientology an institution? If so, did you change your mind about its status as a religion, or do you have some other definition of “institution” as well? If not, what am I (or your fellow believers) to make of your statements when you are willing to butcher a language to make some inconsequential point?
one factor that differentiates cult from religion is the number of adherents, but I am game calling atheism a cult given the other factors that come to play such as being authoritarian, exploitative and possibly dangerous all which I find to be in concert with atheism..so please allow me to retract my previous view and indeed label atheism as a cult growing, perhaps over the next few decades it will soften its image to become more religion like!
It is during discussions like these when I wish we didn’t need a word for non-belief in god. Atheism is not a “contention”. Atheists withhold belief in a deity until sufficient evidence is provided. Do people who withhold a belief that Elvis Presley is alive also fall under the category of religious zealots? They haven’t come up with any substantial scientific proof to account forthe death of “sans Elvis Presley”.
Your analogy falls short. on what basis are the two subjects alike? to digress I can say with some certainty that Elvis is indeed dead given his would be current age and drinking/eating habits.. but again I fail to see what this has to do with God or religion? would you like to take this plane in for a landing?

Do we also call those who don’t believe in astrology, karma, chakras, or telekinesis, until sufficient evidence is provided, religious zealots or dogmatists? I hope your answer is that we wouldn’t.
I have defined for you in my previous paragraph my new view on the cult of atheism and its sub-groups-- I haven't shared my view of your new addendum, though, I am glad you can broaden your horizon so we're less bored here but yet again, i fail to see any semblance of atheism to chakras or karma? One is concerned with spirituality and the other is concerned with materialism!

This is an entirely different argument. First of all, I haven’t said that atheism necessarily leads to a particular type or form of government or a particular social ideology or anything other than a lack of belief in god.
There are many different ways in which people can argue for religion. You can argue that it is true, or that it is useful or necessary, or that non-belief or the rejection of god/religion is also religious or dogmatic. Even if atheism lead to a totally corrupt society (which is not inherent or obvious) or that atheism is another religion or dogmatic (again not inherent or obvious), how does that help your argument in any way?
I wasn't going for an argument, I was making an assertion, there is a difference!
and further let me clarify, though you are a guest on this Islamic forum, and subject to its rules if you desire membership here, I really have no interest in discussing or convincing you of religion or with other atheists or non-Muslims in general..I don't think I have touched upon anything Islam least of which in the health and science section.. Mild references to religion and God really have very little to do with making an argument for a religion.. and to be quite blunt, I don't give a **** what you believe or what becomes of you.. atheists have a way of forcing themselves to be akin to animals and generally that is how I tend to feel about them-- and I shouldn't have to apologize for my feelings!

What do you achieve by charging atheists with religion-like dogmatism? What do you achieve by charging particular atheists with murder or oppression?
I don’t see how that helps your argument in any way.
See previous, history so tells us that atheists have had more death on their hands than all the religions combined! any spin on that isn't really going to change the fact of the matter!


Your opinion is irrelevant. Again, if you’re arguing that you find contentment in religion that does not mean it is true.

All the best,


Faysal
Then we alas have something in common as I find your opinion equally irrelevant and almost always out of place!

all the best
Reply

icefirez
01-28-2010, 04:08 PM
salam alaikum first brothers selam to all non muslims

a few week ago an scientist came with theory that exept matter and energy it's information too a component of the world...its like an empty cd and full cd they both have same weight...but the empty cd cant load anything....so i dont remebred name of scientist but he left open mouth too all others...

also genetic proved that man came first from water...-this is written in qur'an 1400 years before...
trully you have to read qur'an first than read other theoris

also Darvin said that if there is better theory mine doesnt serve anything....

somepeople says that biology is all evolution...nope all...
i dont belive for myself in evolution...
i life in world is created ...why we exist so smart couldnt we be like animals...or animals evoluate and speak they languages bring they discoveries...why non of the planet in gallactic dont have life in it...why the world is created so perfect...how could this world bee so perfect...why is that amount of oxygen in world? why is this temperature if there is no god probably now could be more than 100 degree...but it stay constant? why the atmosphere have that distance did u know that if atmosphere would be more closer to world life woulndt exist ...also muslims discoverys are wow amazing...

number(arabians)
trigonometry(arabian scientist discoverid)
lunar calendar(arabians too)
big bang(explonation in qur'an)
relativity theory(if you search deep more you will find it to but only u need to understand)
black seed(miracle of this are now discovered)
brakeage of moon(now discovered)
sun orbit(written in qur'an 1400 years ago)
two seas they dont mix (written in qur'an 1400 years ago)
man created from water(genetic proves now after 1400 passed from qur'an came)
mountains are seal of world(now proven that mountains save world for earthshake)
winds are warns for bad weather(proved)
everything is pair(now proven that exept matter exit it exist anti-matter to)

and more more more more thing keep searching
Reply

Santoku
01-28-2010, 07:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by icefirez
number(arabians)
trigonometry(arabian scientist discoverid)
lunar calendar(arabians too)
big bang(explonation in qur'an)
relativity theory(if you search deep more you will find it to but only u need to understand)
black seed(miracle of this are now discovered)
brakeage of moon(now discovered)
sun orbit(written in qur'an 1400 years ago)
two seas they dont mix (written in qur'an 1400 years ago)
man created from water(genetic proves now after 1400 passed from qur'an came)
mountains are seal of world(now proven that mountains save world for earthshake)
winds are warns for bad weather(proved)
everything is pair(now proven that exept matter exit it exist anti-matter to)

and more more more more thing keep searching
Hmm Let us check this out.

number(arabians)
Nope Indians.

trigonometry(arabian scientist discoverid)
Nope Ancient Greeks, plus Babylonians and Egyptians (hence the Greek derived name)

lunar calendar(arabians too)
Nope Chinese

big bang(explonation in qur'an)
Only if you torture the translation.

relativity theory(if you search deep more you will find it to but only u need to understand)
Give me the Surah number so I can check, please..

black seed(miracle of this are now discovered)
And ancient herbalists many of whom were very skilled did not know of this?

brakeage of moon(now discovered)
Really? When and where scientific papers please?

sun orbit(written in qur'an 1400 years ago)
As written the phrases seem more to link the orbits of sun and moon with day and night not with the galactic centre (if not then why are day and night and the orbits of the sun and moon in the same surah?)

two seas they dont mix (written in qur'an 1400 years ago)
Which two seas, where are these two seas indentified in the Qu'ran?
And if it refers to the Mediterranean and Atlantic what makes you think that nobody had ever discovered the differences in salinity between the two?

man created from water(genetic proves now after 1400 passed from qur'an came)
Genetic proof? Man is made up of much more than water, but then was there not mention af man also being made of dirt?

mountains are seal of world(now proven that mountains save world for earthshake)
Then why are there earthquakes in mountainous areas?

winds are warns for bad weather(proved)
And the ancients had not observed this for themselves?

everything is pair
Including amoebas? Viruses? Bacteria?
Reply

icefirez
01-28-2010, 09:08 PM
THE HELIO-CENTRIC SYSTEM

He created the heavens and the Earth with truth. He wraps the night around the day and wraps the day around the night, and has made the Sun and Moon subservient, each one running for a specified term. Is He not indeed the Almighty, the Endlessly Forgiving? ( Surat az-Zumar, 5)

In the above verse the movement of the Earth is described by the word “yukawwiru,” which comes from root verb “takwir,” meaning “to cover up a spherical body,” in the way that the rotation of the Earth gives rise to night and day, like the winding of a turban. In addition to the spherical shape of the Earth the word is also the most accurate expression of its movement around the Sun. Because of the Earth’s spherical shape and its movement around the Sun, the Sun always illuminates one side of the Earth while the other is in darkness. The side in shadow is shrouded by the darkness of night, to be replaced by the brightness of day when the Sun rises. The positions of the Sun and Earth are revealed as follows in Surah Ya Sin:

And the Sun runs to its resting place. That is the decree of the Almighty, the All-Knowing. And We have decreed set phases for the Moon, until it ends up looking like an old palm spathe. It is not for the Sun to overtake the Moon nor for the night to outstrip the day; each one is swimming in a sphere. (Surah Ya Sin, 38-40)

The movements of the Sun and Moon in verse 40 of Surah Ya Sin are described by the Arabic word "yasbahoona," meaning “flowing, passing or swimming.” This word refers to an action performed by someone on their own. Someone acting according to this verb continues to perform it alone, with no intervention from anyone else. The above verses may therefore be referring to the Sun’s independent movement in the universe, independent of any other celestial body. (Allah knows the truth.) It is impossible for us to see or follow the movement of the Sun with our own eyes. It is only possible to determine that movement using special technological equipment. As stated in verse 39 of Surah Ya Sin, in addition to rotating around its own axis once every 26 days, the Sun also moves through its own course.

The verse also reports that the Sun is not allowed to “overtake the Moon,” and the Qur’an thus states that the Sun and Moon do not revolve around the same body, as astronomers put it. At the same time, the verse makes it clear that there is no connection between the motion responsible for night and day and the movement of the Sun and Moon. (Allah knows the truth.)

Until the 16th century it was thought that the Earth was the center of the universe. This view is known as the “geo-centric model,” from the Greek words geo (Earth) and centron (center). This belief was questioned by the famous astronomer Nicolaus Copernicus in 1543 in his book De Revolutionibus Orbium Coelestium (Of the Revolutions of Heavenly Spheres), in which he suggested that the Earth and the other planets revolve around the Sun. But as a result of observations using a telescope performed by Galileo Galilei in 1610, it was scientifically established that the Earth revolves around the Sun. Since it had hitherto been thought that the Sun revolved around the Earth, most scholars of the time rejected Copernicus’ theory. The famous astronomer Johannes Kepler's views setting out the movements of the planets confirmed the helio-centric model in the 16th and 17th centuries. In this model, whose name comes from the words Helios (Sun) and centron (center), the Sun is the center of the universe, rather than the Earth. Other heavenly bodies also revolve around the Sun. Yet this was all revealed 1400 years ago in the Qur’an.

By saying that the Earth was the center of the universe, the ancient Greek astronomer Ptolemy was responsible for the geo-centric idea of the universe that prevailed for hundreds of years. For that reason, at the time of the revelation of the Qur’an, nobody knew that the Earth-centered model that accounted for the formation of day and night in terms of the movement of the Sun was incorrect. On the contrary, all the stars and planets were regarded as revolving around the Earth. Despite these prevalent errors of the time, the Qur’an contains many expressions that agree with the scientific facts regarding day and night:

By the Sun and its morning brightness, and the moon when it follows it, and the day when it displays it, and the night when it conceals it (Surat ash-Shams, 1-4)

As set out in the above verse, day, the brightness of the Sun, is the result of the movement of the Earth. It is not the movement of the Sun that is responsible for night and day. In other words, the Sun is immobile in terms of night and day. The information in the Qur’an refutes the thesis that the Earth is fixed while the Sun revolves around it. The Qur’an is clearly descended from the presence of our Lord, He Who is unfettered by space and time. As science and technology advance more and more examples of the compatibility between the Qur’an and science are coming to light. This is set out in another verse from the Qur’an:

There is instruction in their stories for people of intelligence. This is not a narration which has been invented but confirmation of all that came before, a clarification of everything, and a guidance and a mercy for people who believe. (Surah Yusuf, 111)

THE EXPANDING EARTH

Allah is the light of the heavens and the Earth. The metaphor of His light is that of a niche in which is a lamp, the lamp inside a glass, the glass like a brilliant star, lit from a blessed tree, an olive, neither of the east nor of the west, its oil all but giving off light even if no fire touches it. Light upon light. Allah guides to His light whoever He wills and Allah makes metaphors for mankind and Allah has knowledge of all things. (Surat an-Nur, 35)

Quasar is the name given to extremely dense and bright bodies that look like stars and emit radio waves in space. Quasars are the brightest known bodies in the universe. The brightness of the brightest quasar in the universe is more than 2 trillion times greater than that of the Sun (2x1012); it is approximately 100 times greater than the total light emitted by a galaxy such as the Milky Way.1

The word "noor" in the verse means “light, brightness, daylight, shining, illumination.” The light referred to in the verse is suggestive, in terms of its brightness, of these celestial bodies known as quasars. Because other expressions in the verse describe the visibility of quasar light and the source of that light in the very wisest terms. (Allah knows the truth.)

The word “durriyyun”, meaning “bright,” in the expression "kaannaha kawkabun durriyyun” in the verse, itself meaning “like a brilliant star,” is highly compatible with the scientific description of quasars as “bright, stellar bodies”.2 In addition, the verse speaks of “giving off light even if no fire touches it.” It is probable that this is a reference to the way quasars burn without fire - nuclear fusion. Since oxygen is not naturally present in space, there can be no question of the brightness of quasars having anything to do with fire. The burning taking place here does so as hydrogen atoms are compressed and produce helium. The energy released during this process then illuminates space.

The expression “light upon light” in the verse may well be a reference to the “gravitational lens effect” in astronomy. (Allah knows the truth.) Many astronomers investigating the sources of light in the universe will easily understand this description in the verse. The effect in question refers to the way light from a source behind a body with a very dense mass, such as a black hole, departs under the effect of that dense body and reaches us. It appears that there is therefore more than one source of light of the images we see. Due to this “gravitational lens effect,” an object appears to be somewhere different to where it actually is, and in greater numbers.

The term “a niche in which is a lamp” in the verse may be interpreted as the niche being the area of gravitational lens effect of a black hole. (Allah knows the truth.) It is significant that in describing the effect that arises, NASA scientists use the analogy of the effect of a drinking glass:

The gravitational effect of the galaxy on the distant quasar was similar to the lens effect of a drinking glass on a distant street light – it created multiple images lenses here too.3

In his book The Whole Shebang, regarded as one of the leading books of the 20th century by the New York Times, the science writer Timothy Ferris clarifies the subject as follows:

As light from a Quasar travels towards us… it may pass through either side of an intervening cluster of galaxies. The warped space surrounding the cluster can act as a lens, with a result that we see two images of what is (or was) actually one quasar.4

The reference in the verse to “light on light” may be a description of reflected light forming more than one image. In addition, the term “neither of the east nor of the west” in the verse is in all likelihood a reference to the uncertainty of the light’s source. (Allah knows the truth.)

Quasars are the brightest objects in the universe, and are the nuclei of growing galaxies with the black holes in their center. Black holes, that arise as the result of the contraction of stars and gasses belonging to galaxies, are the source of quasar energy. Quasars’ brightness is spread by stars falling into the black holes at the centers of galaxies.5 Thinking of the “lamp” in the verse as a quasar, the “niche” may well be a reference to the “black hole” that feeds the quasar. (Allah knows the truth.)

Einstein suggested that due to the effect described as the “gravitational lens,” bodies in space could bend light and that it was possible for an observer to see several images from one single source.6 However, this effect was only observed for the first time in the quasar known as the “Twin Quasar” in 1979. Quasars were first discovered in 1963, 14 centuries after the revelation of the Qur’an. The status of the heavenly bodies described in verse 35 of Surat an-Nur is in surprising agreement with our current scientific knowledge. This and a great many other scientific miracles are clear proof that the Qur’an is the revelation of our Omniscient Lord, the Creator of all things.

THE COMING OF THE UNIVERSE INTO EXISTENCE

Until the mid-20th century, the prevalent view across the world was that the universe was infinite, had existed forever and that it will continue to do so for all time. According to this view, known as the "static universe model," the universe had no end or beginning.

In maintaining that the universe is a collection of fixed, static and unchanging substances, this view has constituted the basis of materialist philosophy and has consequently rejected the existence of a Creator. However, as science and technology progressed during the 20th century, the static universe model has been completely uprooted.

We have now entered the 21st century and a new dawn is upon us. Through numerous experiments, observations and calculation conducted by some of the world's most prominent thinkers, modern physics has proven that the universe did indeed have a beginning, that it came into being from nothing in a single moment in a huge explosion. Furthermore, it has been established that the universe is not fixed and static, as materialists still stubbornly maintain. On the contrary, it is undergoing a constant process of movement, change and expansion. These recently-established facts all act as nails in the coffin of the static universe theory. Today, all these facts are universally accepted by the scientific community.

The origin of the universe is described in the Qur'an in the following verse:

He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth. (Qur'an, 6:101)

This information is in full agreement with the findings of contemporary scientists. As we stated earlier, the conclusion that astrophysics has reached today is that the entire universe, together with the dimensions of matter and time, came into existence as a result of a great explosion that occurred a long time ago. This event, known as "The Big Bang," is the catalyst for the creation of the universe from nothingness. This explosion, all parties in the scientific community agree, emanated from a single point some 15 billion years ago. (See Harun Yahya, The Creation of the Universe, Al-Attique Publishers Inc. Canada, 2000)

Before the Big Bang, there was no such thing as matter. From a condition of non-existence in which neither matter, nor energy, nor even time existed-and which can only be described metaphysically-matter, energy, and time were all created in an instant. This fact, only recently discovered by modern physics, was announced to us in the Qur'an 1,400 years ago.

THE EXPANSION OF THE UNIVERSE


Edwin Hubble with his giant telescope

In the Qur'an, which was revealed fourteen centuries ago at a time when the science of astronomy was still primitive, the expansion of the universe was described in the following terms:

And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)

The word "heaven," as stated in the verse above, is used in various places in the Qur'an. It is referring to space and the wider universe. Here again, the word is used with this meaning, stating that the universe "expands." The Arabic word "moosiaaoona" in the term "inna lamoosiaaoona," translated into English as "it is We Who are steadily expanding it", comes from the verb "evsea," meaning "to expand." The prefix "la" emphasises the following name or title and adds a sense of "to a great extent." This expression therefore means "We expand the sky or the universe to a great extent." This is the very conclusion that science has reached today. 1


Georges Lemaitre

Until the dawn of the 20th century, the only view prevailing in the world of science was that "the universe has a constant nature and it has existed since infinite time." However, modern research, observations, and calculations carried out by means of modern technology have revealed that the universe in fact had a beginning and that it constantly "expands."

At the beginning of the 20th century, the Russian physicist Alexander Friedmann and the Belgian cosmologist Georges Lemaitre theoretically calculated that the universe is in constant motion and that it is expanding.


From the moment of the Big Bang, the universe has been constantly expanding at a great speed. Scientists compare the expanding universe to the surface of a balloon that is inflated.
This notion was confirmed by the use of observational data in 1929. While observing the sky with a telescope, Edwin Hubble, the American astronomer, discovered that the stars and galaxies were constantly moving away from each other. This discovery is regarded as one of the greatest in the history of astronomy. During these observations, Hubble established that the stars emit a light that turns redder according to their distance. That is because according to the known laws of physics, light heading towards a point of observation turns violet, and light moving away from that point assumes a more reddish hue. During his observations, Hubble noted a tendency towards the colour red in the light emitted by stars. In short, the stars were moving further and further away, all the time. The stars and galaxies were not only moving away from us, but also from each other. A universe where everything constantly moves away from everything else implied a constantly expanding universe. The observations carried out in the following years verified that the universe is constantly expanding.

In order to gain a clearer understanding of this, let us imagine the universe to be the surface of a balloon being inflated. In the same way that the more the balloon is inflated, the further away the points on its surface move from one another, celestial bodies also move away from one another as the universe expands. This was theoretically discovered by Albert Einstein, regarded as one of the greatest scientists of the 20th century. However, in order to avoid violating the "static universe model" that was generally accepted at that time, Einstein laid that discovery aside. He would later describe this as the greatest blunder of his life. 2

This fact was explained in the Qur'an in a time when telescopes and similar technological advancements were not even close to being invented. This is because the Qur'an is the Word of Allah: the Creator and Ruler of the entire universe.

ORBITS AND THE ROTATING UNIVERSE

One of the most important reasons for the great equilibrium in the universe is the fact that celestial bodies follow specific paths. Stars, planets and satellites all rotate around their own axes and also rotate together with the system of which they are a part. The universe functions within a finely-tuned order, just like the wheels in a factory.

There are more than 100 billion galaxies in the visible universe and each small galaxy contains approximately a billion stars. Furthermore, each big galaxy contains more than a trillion. 16 Many of these stars have planets and many of those planets have satellites. All these celestial bodies follow the most finely calculated paths and orbits. For millions of years, each one has been moving in its own path in flawless harmony with all the others. In addition to these, there are also a great many comets moving along in their own pre-determined paths.

In addition, the paths in the universe are not restricted to a few celestial bodies. The Solar System and even other galaxies also exhibit considerable motion around other centres. Every year, Earth, and the Solar System with it, move some 500 million km from where they were the previous year. It has been calculated that even the slightest deviation from celestial bodies' paths could have drastic consequences which might spell the end of the entire system. For example, the consequences of the earth's deviating from its course by a mere 3 mm have been described in one source as follows:

While rotating around the sun, the earth follows such an orbit that, every 18 miles, it only deviates 2.8 millimetres from a direct course. The orbit followed by the earth never changes, because even a deviation of 3 millimetres would cause catastrophic disasters: If the deviation were 2.5 mm instead of 2.8 mm, then the orbit would be very large, and all of us would freeze. If the deviation were 3.1 mm, we would be scorched to death. 17

Another characteristic of heavenly bodies is that they also rotate around their own axes. The verse which reads "[I swear] by Heaven with its cyclical systems," (Qur'an, 86:11) indicates this truth. Naturally, at the time when the Qur'an was revealed, people had no telescopes with which to study bodies millions of kilometres away in space, advanced observation technology or our modern knowledge of physics and astronomy. It was therefore impossible to establish that space had "its oscillating orbits," (Qur'an, 51:7) as described in the verse. The Qur'an however, revealed at that time, provided clear information concerning that fact. This is proof that this book is indeed Allah's Word.

THE SUN'S TRAJECTORY

It is stressed in the Qur'an that the Sun and Moon follow specific trajectories:

It is He Who created night and day and the sun and moon, each one swimming in a sphere. (Qur'an, 21:33)

The word "swim" in the above verse is expressed in Arabic by the word "sabaha" and is used to describe the movement of the Sun in space. The word means that the Sun does not move randomly through space but that it rotates around its axis and follows a course as it does so. The fact that the Sun is not fixed in position but rather follows a specific trajectory is also stated in another verse:

And the sun runs to its resting place. That is the decree of the Almighty, the All-Knowing. (Qur'an, 36:38)

These facts set out in the Qur'an were only discovered by means of astronomical advances in our own time. According to astronomers' calculations, the Sun moves along a path known as the Solar Apex in the path of the star Vega at an incredible speed of 720,000 kmph. In rough terms, this shows that the Sun traverses some 17.28 million km a day. As well as the Sun itself, all the planets and satellites within its gravitational field also travel the same distance.
Reply

icefirez
01-28-2010, 09:15 PM
CALCULATING THE LUNAR YEAR

It is He Who appointed the sun to give radiance, and the moon to give light, assigning it phases so you would know the number of years and the reckoning of time. Allah did not create these things except with truth. We make the Signs clear for people who know. (Qur'an, 10:5)

And We have decreed set phases for the moon, until it ends up looking like an old date branch. (Qur'an, 36:39)



In the first of the above verses, Allah has clearly revealed that the Moon will be a means of measurement for people to calculate the year. Furthermore, our attention is also drawn to the fact that these calculations will be performed according to the positions of the Moon as it revolves in its orbit. Since the angles between the Earth and Moon and the Moon and Sun constantly change, we see the Moon in different forms at different times. Furthermore, our ability to see the Moon is made possible by the fact that it is illuminated by the Sun. The amount of the lighted half of the Moon we see from Earth changes. Bearing in mind these changes, a number of calculations can be made, making it possible for human beings to measure the year.

In former times a month was calculated as the time between two full moons, or the time it took the Moon to travel around the Earth. According to this, one month was equal to 29 days, 12 hours and 44 minutes. This is known as the "lunar month." Twelve lunar months represent one year, according to the Hijri calendar. However, there is a difference of eleven days between the Hijri calendar and the Gregorian calendar, in which a year is the time it takes the Earth to orbit the Sun. Indeed, attention is drawn to this difference in another verse:

They stayed in their Cave for three hundred years and added nine. (Qur'an, 18:25)

We can clarify the time referred to in the verse thus: 300 years x 11 days (the difference which forms every year) = 3,300 days. Bearing in mind that one solar year lasts 365 days, 5 hours, 48 minutes and 45.5 seconds, 3,300 days/365.24 days = 9 years. To put it another way, 300 years according to the Gregorian calendar is equal to 300+9 years according to the Hijri calendar. As we can see, the verse refers to this finely calculated difference of 9 years. (Allah knows best.) There is no doubt that the Qur'an, which contains such pieces of information, which transcended the everyday knowledge of the time, is a miraculous revelation

THE EARTH'S DIRECTION OF ROTATION

You will see the mountains and reckon them to be solid; but they go past like clouds-the handiwork of Allah Who gives to everything its solidity. He is aware of what you do. (Qur'an, 27:88)

The above verse emphasises that the Earth not only rotates but that it also has a direction of rotation. The direction of movement of the main cloud masses at 3,500-4,000 metres high is always from West to East. That is why it is generally the state of the weather in the West which is looked at in meteorological forecasts.18

If only they had believed and had fear [and awareness of Allah]!
A reward from Allah is better, if they only knew.
(Qur’an, 2:103)

Do you not know that Allah is He to Whom the kingdom of the heavens and the earth belongs and that, besides Allah,
you have no protector and no helper?
(Qur’an, 2:107)

The main reason why cloud masses are pulled from West to East is the direction in which the Earth rotates. As we now know, our Earth spins from West to East. This scientific fact, only recently established by science, was revealed 1,400 years ago in the Qur’an, at a time when the Earth was believed to be flat, and to be resting on the back of an ox.

THE FUNCTION OF MOUNTAINS

The Qur'an draws attention to a very important geological function of mountains:

We placed firmly embedded mountains on the earth, so it would not move under them… (Qur'an, 21:31)

The verse states that mountains perform the function of preventing shocks in the Earth. This fact was not known by anyone at the time the Qur'an was revealed. It was, in fact, brought to light only recently, as a result of the findings of modern geological research.

Formerly, it was thought that mountains were merely protrusions rising above the surface of the Earth. However, scientists realised that this was not actually the case, and that those parts known as the mountain root extended down as far as 10-15 times their own height. With these features, mountains play a similar role to a nail or peg firmly holding down a tent. For example, Mount Everest, the summit of which stands approximately 9 km above the surface of the Earth, has a root deeper than 125 km.24



Mountains have roots deep under the surface of the ground. (Press and Siever, Earth, 413.)
Schematic section. Mountains, like pegs, have deep roots embedded in the ground. (Andre Cailleux and J. Moody Stuart, Anatomy of the Earth (McGraw-Hill Companies: 1968), 220.)

Another illustration shows how mountains are peg-like in shape, due to their deep roots. (Edward J. Tarbuck and Frederick K. Lutgens, Earth Science (USA: Macmillan USA: 1993), 158.)
Mountains emerge as a result of the movements and collisions of massive plates forming the Earth's crust. When two plates collide, the stronger one slides under the other, the one on the top bends and forms heights and mountains. The layer beneath proceeds under the ground and makes a deep extension downward. Consequently, as stated earlier, mountains have a portion stretching downwards, as large as their visible parts on the Earth.

In a scientific text, the structure of mountains is described as follows:

Where continents are thicker, as in mountain ranges, the crust sinks deeper into the mantle.25

Professor Siaveda, a world-renowned underwater geologist, made the following comment in reference to the way that mountains have root-like stalks attaching them to the surface:

The fundamental difference between continental mountains and the oceanic mountains lies in its material... But the common denominator on both mountains are that they have roots to support the mountains. In the case of continental mountains, light-low density material from the mountain is extended down into the earth as a root. In the case of oceanic mountains, there is also light material supporting the mountain as a root... Therefore, the function of the roots are to support the mountains according to the law of Archimedes.26

Furthermore, a book titled Earth, by Dr. Frank Press, former president of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, which is still used as a text book in a great many universities, states that mountains are like stakes, and are buried deep under the surface of the Earth.27

In other verses, this role of the mountains is pointed out by a comparison with "pegs":

Have We not made the earth as a bed and the mountains its pegs? (Qur'an, 78:6-7)

In another verse it is revealed that Allah "made the mountains firm." (Qur'an, 79:32) The word "arsaha" in this verse means "was made rooted, was fixed, was nailed to the earth." Similarly, mountains extend to the surface layer joining lines on and below the surface, and nail these together. By fixing the Earth's crust they prevent any sliding over the magma layer or amongst the layers themselves. In short, mountains can be compared to nails holding strips of wood together. The fixing effect of mountains is known as isostasy in scientific literature. Isostasy is the state of equilibrium between the upward force created by the mantle layer and the downward force created by the Earth's crust. As mountains lose mass due to erosion, soil loss or melting of glaciers, they can gain mass from the formation of glaciers, volcanic explosions or soil formation. Therefore, as mountains grow lighter they are pressed upwards by the raising force implemented by the liquids. Alternatively, as they grow heavier they are pressed into the mantle by the force of gravity. Equilibrium between these two forces is established by isostasy. This balancing property of mountains is described in these terms in a scientific source:

G.B Airy in 1855 suggested that the crust of the earth could be likened to rafts of timber floating on water. Thick pieces of timber float higher above the water surface than thin pieces and similarly thick sections of the earth's crust will float on a liquid or plastic substratum of greater density. Airy was suggesting that mountains have a deep root of lower density rock which the plains lack. Four years after Airy published his work, J.H Pratt offered an alternative hypothesis... By this hypothesis rock columns below mountains must have a lower density, because of their greater length, than shorter rock columns beneath plains. Both Airy and Pratt's hypothesis imply that surface irregularities are balanced by differences in density of rocks below the major features (mountains and plains) of the crust. This state of BALANCE is described as the concept of ISOSTASY.28

Today, we know that the rocky external layer of the Earth's surface is riven by deep faults and split into plates swimming above the molten lava. Since the Earth revolves very quickly around its own axis, were it not for the fixing effect of the mountains, these plaques would shift. In such an event, soil would not collect on the Earth's surface, water would not accumulate in the soil, no plants could grow, and no roads or houses could be built. In short, life on Earth would be impossible. Through the mercy of Allah, however, mountains act like nails, and to a large extent, prevent movement in the Earth's surface.

We subjected the mountains to glorify [Allah] with him in the
evening and at sunrise.
(Qur’an, 38:18)

He cast firmly embedded mountains on the earth so it would not move under you, and rivers and pathways so that hopefully
you would be guided.
(Qur’an, 16:15)
This vital role of mountains, which has been discovered by modern geological and seismic research, was revealed in the Qur'an centuries ago as an example of the supreme wisdom in Allah's creation.

… [He] cast firmly embedded mountains on the earth so that it would not move under you… (Qur'an, 31:10

THE SPLITTING EARTH

[I swear] by Heaven which returns and the earth which splits. (Qur'an, 86:11-12)

The Arabic word "sadA" in the above verse means "cracking, splitting apart." Allah's swearing by the splitting of the Earth points to an important phenomenon, as do the other scientific miracles in the Qur'an. Scientists first descended to the depths of the seas and oceans in order to study mineral resources in 1945-1946. One of the most important facts to emerge from that research was the fissured structure of the Earth. The rock layer on the external surface of the Earth was split by large numbers of cracks (faults), tens of thousands of kilometres long, running from north to south and east to west. Scientists also realised that there was molten magma under the sea, at depths of 100-150 km.


The above representative pictures show the fragmented structure of the Earth. The magma layer under the Earth’s crust is allowed to escape to the surface by this fragmented structure. This significantly reduces the temperature of the Earth.

Due to these splits and cracks, lava flows from volcanoes on the sea bed. Due to this fissured structure, a significant amount of heat is also given off, and a large part of molten rocks forms the mountains under the oceans. If the Earth did not possess this structure, which allows large amounts of heat to escape from its crust, life on Earth would become impossible.37


If the Earth’s surface did not permit high levels of heat to escape, life on Earth would be impossible.

There is no doubt that such information, which required such advanced technology to be discovered, being given 1,400 years ago is yet another proof that the Qur'an is the Word of Allah.

SUB-ATOMIC PARTICLES

Following the development of the atomic theory of the Greek philosopher Democritus, people used to believe that matter consisted of minute, indivisible and indestructible particles known as atoms. However, advances in the study of atoms have refuted this notion. At the present time, modern science has revealed that the atom, previously regarded as the smallest particle, can actually be split. This fact only emerged in the last century, but was revealed in the Qur'an 1,400 years ago:

… He is the Knower of the Unseen, Whom not an atom's weight eludes, either in the heavens or in the earth; nor is there anything smaller or larger than that which is not in a Clear Book. (Qur'an, 34:3)

… Not even an atom's weight eludes your Lord, either on earth or in heaven. Nor is there anything smaller than that, or larger, which is not in a Clear Book. (Qur'an, 10:61)

This verse refers to "atom" and smaller particles still.


1. Ordinary matter consists of atoms bound together by electromagnetic force to form molecules. These molecules come together to form solids, liquids and gasses.

2. Atoms consist of a dense nucleus surrounded by a cloud of electrons. Electromagnetic force holds the nucleus and electrons together.

3. The nucleus consists of protons and neutrons held together by a powerful nuclear force.

4.Protons and neutrons consist of three quarks each and are held together by powerful nuclear force.

Up until 20 years ago, it was believed that the smallest particles were the protons and neutrons which comprise the atom. Very recently, however, even smaller particles of which these themselves consist were discovered. A specialised branch of physics, called "particle physics," emerged to study these "sub-particles" and their particular behaviour. Particle physics research has revealed that the protons and neutrons which comprise the atoms actually consist of sub-particles known as quarks. The size of these quarks, the basic components of protons, whose small size is beyond human conception, is astonishing: 10-18 (0.000000000000000001 of a metre).49

Another point worthy of note is that these verses draw particular attention to the weight of the atom. The word "mithqal," in the expression "mithqali tharratin" (an atom's weight) in the above verses, means weight. In fact, it has been discovered that the protons, neutrons and electrons which form the atom are also compounds which give the atom its weight. Therefore, it is yet another scientific miracle of the Qur'an that attention is drawn instead to the weight of the atom and not its size or any other feature.


THE FECUNDATING WINDS

In one verse of the Qur'an, the "fecundating" characteristic of the winds, and the resulting formation of rain are mentioned.

And We send the fecundating winds, then cause water to descend from the sky, therewith providing you with water in abundance. (Qur'an, 15:22)

This verse points out that the first stage in the formation of rain is wind. Until the beginning of the 20th century, the only relationship known between the wind and the rain was that it was the wind that drove the clouds. However, modern meteorological findings have demonstrated the "fecundating" role of the wind in the formation of rain.

As explained earlier, this fecundating function of the wind works in the following way:

On the surface of oceans and seas, a large number of air bubbles form because of the water's foaming action. The moment these bubbles burst, thousands of tiny particles, with a diameter of just one hundredth of a millimetre, are thrown up into the air. These particles, known as "aerosols," mix with dust carried from the land by the wind, and are carried to the upper layers of the atmosphere. These particles carried to higher altitudes by winds come into contact with water vapour up there. Water vapour condenses around these particles and turns into water droplets. These water droplets first come together and form clouds, and then fall to the Earth in the form of rain. As mentioned, winds "fecundate" the water vapour floating in the air with the particles they carry from the sea, and eventually help the formation of rain clouds.

If winds did not possess this property, water droplets in the upper atmosphere would never form, and there would be no rain.

The most important point to be recognized here is that this critical role of the wind in the formation of rain was stated centuries ago in the Qur'an, at a time when very little was known about natural phenomena…


The picture above shows the stages in the formation of a wave. Waves are formed by the wind blowing above the surface of the water. With the wind, water particles start to move in a circular motion. This movement soon forms waves, one after the other, and bubbles formed by the waves spread in the air. This is the first stage in the formation of rain. This process is declared in the verse as "We send the fecundating winds and then cause water to descend from the sky."


Further information provided in the verse about the fertilising quality of the wind is its role in the pollination of flowers. Many plants on Earth disperse their pollen by means of the wind in order to ensure the survival of their species. Several open-seeded plants, pine trees, palm and similar trees, seeded plants that produce flowers, and grass-like plants are entirely pollinated by the wind. The wind carries the pollen from the plants to others of the species, thus fertilising them.

Until recently, the way that the wind was able to fertilise plants was unknown. When it was realised, however, that plants are divided into males and females, the fertilising role of the wind was also discovered. This truth was already indicated in the Qur'an: "… [He] sent down water from the sky by which We have brought forth various different types of plants in pairs." (Qur'an, 20:53)

THE SEAS NOT MINGLING WITH ONE ANOTHER


A satellite photograph of the Strait of Gibraltar.

One of the properties of seas that has only recently been discovered is related in a verse of the Qur'an as follows:

He has let loose the two seas, converging together, with a barrier between them they do not break through. (Qur'an, 55:19-20)

This property of the seas, that is, that they meet and yet do not intermix, has only very recently been discovered by oceanographers. Because of the physical force called "surface tension," the waters of neighbouring seas do not mix. Caused by the difference in the density of their waters, surface tension prevents them from mingling with one another, just as if a thin wall were between them.60

It is interesting that, during a period when there was little knowledge of physics, and of surface tension, or oceanography, this truth was revealed in the Qur'an.

THE BIRTH OF A HUMAN BEING

Many diverse subjects are mentioned in the Qur'an while also inviting people to believe. Sometimes the heavens, sometimes animals, and sometimes plants are mentioned as evidence of Allah's existence. In many of these verses, people are called upon to consider their own creation. They are often reminded how man came into the world, which stages he has passed through, and what his essence is:

It is We Who have created you. Why, then, do you not accept the truth? Have you ever considered that [seed] which you emit? Is it you who create it? Or are We the Creator? (Qur'an, 56:57-59)

The miracle of man's creation is emphasised in many verses. Some of the information within these verses is so detailed that it was impossible for anyone living in the 7th century to have known it. Examples of these are as follows:

1. Man is not created from the entire semen, but only a very small portion of it (sperm).

2. It is the male that determines the sex of the baby.

3. The human embryo adheres to the mother's uterus like a leech.

4. The embryo develops in three dark regions in the uterus.

The items of information just quoted were far above the level of learning of the people living at that time. The discovery of these facts could only become possible by the technology attained in the 20th century.

Now, let us examine these items one at a time.

A Drop of Semen


In the picture to the left, we see semen ejected into the uterus. Only very few sperms out of 250 million sperms emitted from the male can make it to the ovum. The sperm that will fertilise the egg is the only one out of a thousand sperms that have managed to survive.
The fact that man is made not from the entire semen—but only a small part of it—is related in the Qur'an with the expression, "a drop of ejected semen."

Sperm undertake a journey into the mother's body until they reach the ovum. Only a thousand out of 250 million sperm succeed in reaching the ovum. At the end of this five-minute race, the ovum, half the size of a grain of salt, will let only one of the sperms in. That is, the substance of man is not the whole semen, but only a small part of it. This is explained in the Surat al-Qiyama as follows:

Does man reckon he will be left uncontrolled [without purpose]? Was he not once a drop of ejected semen? (Qur'an, 75:36-37)

As we have seen, the Qur'an informs us that man is made not from the entire semen, but only a small part of it. That the particular emphasis in this verse announces a fact only discovered by modern science is evidence that the Qur'an is the Word of Allah.

The Mixture in the Semen


In the Qur'an, it is said that masculinity or femininity are created out of "a drop of semen which has been ejected." Until fairly recently, it was believed that a baby's sex was determined by the mother's cells. Science only discovered this information given in the Qur'an in the 20th century. This and many other similar details about the creation of man were stated in the Qur'an centuries ago.

The fluid referred to as semen, which contains the sperm, does not consist of sperm alone. On the contrary, it is made up of a mixture of different fluids. Seminal fluid is a collection of substances secreted from the testicles, the seminal vesicles, the prostate gland and glands linked to the urinary tract. A detailed analysis of this fluid shows that it consists of a great many separate substances, such as citric acid, prostaglandin, flavin, ascorbic acid, ergothioneine, cholesterol, phospholipids, fibrinolysin, zinc, phosphatase acid, phosphase, hyaluronidase and sperm. These fluids exercise different functions, such as containing the sugar necessary for providing energy for the sperm, neutralizing the acids at the entrance of the uterus, and providing a slippery substance for the easy movement of the sperm.

When semen is mentioned in the Qur'an, this fact, which was discovered by modern science, is also referred to, and semen is defined as a mixed fluid:

We created man from a mingled drop to test him, and We made him hearing and seeing. (Qur'an, 76:2)

In other verses, semen is again referred to as a mixture, and it is stressed that man is created from the "extract" of this mixture:

He Who has created all things in the best possible way. He commenced the creation of man from clay; then He made his progeny from an extract of discarded fluid. (Qur'an, 32:7-8)

The Arabic word "sulala," translated as "extract," means the essential or best part of something. By either meaning, it refers to "part of a whole." This shows that the Qur'an is the Word of Allah, Who knows the creation of man to its minute details.

The Sex of the Child

Until fairly recently, it was thought that a baby's sex was determined by the mother's cells. Or at least, it was believed that the sex was determined by the male and female cells together. But, we are given different information in the Qur'an, where it is stated that masculinity or femininity is created out of "a drop of sperm which has been ejected."

He has created both sexes, male and female from a drop of semen which has been ejected. (Qur'an, 53:45-46)

Was he not a drop of ejaculated sperm, then a blood-clot which He created and shaped, making from it both sexes, male and female? (Qur'an, 75:37-39)

The developing disciplines of genetics and molecular biology have scientifically validated the accuracy of this information given by the Qur'an. It is now understood that sex is determined by the sperm cells from the male, and that the female has no role in this process.


The Y chromosome carries characteristics of masculinity, while the X chromosome carries those of femininity. In the mother's egg, there is only the X chromosome, which determines female characteristics. In the semen from the father, there are sperms that include either X or Y chromosomes. Therefore, the sex of the baby depends on whether the sperm fertilising the egg contains an X or Y chromosome. In other words, as stated in the verse, the factor determining the sex of the baby is the semen, which comes from the father. This knowledge, which could not have been known at the time when the Qur'an was revealed, is evidence to the fact that the Qur'an is the Word of Allah.

Chromosomes are the main elements in determining sex. Two of the 46 chromosomes that determine the structure of a human being are identified as the sex chromosomes. These two chromosomes are called "XY" in males, and "XX" in females, because the shapes of the chromosomes resemble these letters. The Y chromosome carries the genes that code for masculinity, while the X chromosome carries the genes that code for femininity.

The formation of a new human being begins with the cross combination of one of these chromosomes, which exist in males and females in pairs. In females, both components of the sex cell, which divides into two during ovulation, carry X chromosomes. The sex cell of a male, on the other hand, produces two different kinds of sperm, one that contains X chromosomes and the other Y chromosomes. If an X chromosome from the female unites with a sperm that contains an X chromosome, then the baby is female. If it unites with the sperm that contains a Y chromosome, the baby is male.

In other words, a baby's sex is determined by which chromosome from the male unites with the female's ovum.

None of this was known until the discovery of genes in the 20th century. Indeed, in many cultures, it was believed that a baby's sex was determined by the female. That was why women were blamed when they gave birth to girls.

Fourteen centuries before human genes were discovered, however, the Qur'an revealed information that denies this superstition, and referred to the origin of sex lying not with women, but with the semen deriving from men.

The " Alaq" Clinging to the Uterus


In the first phase of its development, the baby in the mother's womb is in the form of a zygote, which clings to the uterus in order to take nourishment from the mother's blood. In the picture above is a zygote, which looks like a piece of flesh. This formation, which has been discovered by modern embryology, was miraculously stated in the Qur'an 14 centuries ago with the word "alaq," which means "a thing that clings to some place" and is used to describe leeches that cling to a body to suck blood.

If we continue to examine the facts announced to us in the Qur'an, about the formation of human beings, we again encounter some very important scientific truth.

When the sperm of the male unites with the ovum of the female, the essence of the baby to be born is formed. This single cell, known as a "zygote" in biology, will instantly begin reproducing by dividing, and eventually become a "piece of flesh," called an embryo. This, of course, can only be seen by human beings with the aid of a microscope.

The embryo, however, does not spend its developmental period in a void. It clings to the uterus, with something like roots that is firmly fixed to the earth by its tendrils. Through this bond, the embryo can obtain the substances essential to its development from the mother's body.85

Here, an important miracle of the Qur'an is revealed. While referring to the embryo developing in the mother's womb, Allah uses the word "alaq" in the Qur'an:

Recite: In the name of your Lord Who created man from alaq. Recite: And your Lord is the Most Generous. (Qur'an, 96:1-3)

The meaning of the word "alaq" in Arabic is "a thing that clings to some place." The word is literally used to describe leeches that cling to a body to suck blood.

Certainly, the use of such a specific word for the embryo developing in the mother's womb, proves once again that the Qur'an is the Word of Allah, the Lord of all the Worlds.

The Wrapping of Muscles over the Bones

Another important item of information provided in the verses of the Qur'an is the developmental stages of a human being in the mother's womb. It is stated in these verses that in the mother's womb, the bones develop first, and then the muscles form which wrap around them.

[We] then formed the drop into a clot and formed the clot into a lump and formed the lump into bones and clothed the bones in flesh; and then brought him into being as another creature. Blessed be Allah, the Best of Creators! (Qur'an, 23:14)


The bones of the baby completing its development in the mother's womb are clothed with flesh during one particular stage exactly as stated in the Qur’an.

Embryology is the branch of science that studies the development of the embryo in the mother's womb. Until very recently, embryologists assumed that the bones and muscles in an embryo developed at the same time. Yet, advanced microscopic research conducted by virtue of new technological developments has revealed that the revelation of the Qur'an is word for word correct.

These observations at the microscopic level showed that the development inside the mother's womb takes place in just the way it is described in these verses. First, the cartilage tissue of the embryo ossifies. Then, muscular cells that are selected from amongst the tissue around the bones come together and wrap around the bones.

This event is described in a scientific publication titled Developing Human in the following words:

… [T]he shape of the skeleton determines the general appearance of the embryo in the bones stage during the 7th week; muscles do not develop at the same time but their development follows soon after. The muscles take their positions around the bones throughout the body and therefore clothe the bones. Thus, the muscles take their well known forms and structures… The stage of clothing with muscle occurs during the 8th week…86

In short, developmental stages of man, as described in the Qur'an, are in perfect harmony with the findings of modern embryology.


Many stages of a baby's development in the mother's womb are related in the Qur'an. As described in Surat al-Muminun 14, the cartilage of the embryo in the mother's womb ossifies first. Then these bones are covered with muscle cells. Allah describes this development with the verse: "… [We then] formed the lump into bones and clothed the bones in flesh."

Three Dark Stages of the Baby in the Womb

In the Qur'an, it is related that man is created through a three-stage process in the mother's womb.

... He creates you stage by stage in your mothers' wombs in threefold darkness. That is Allah, your Lord. Sovereignty is His. There is no god but Him. So what has made you deviate? (Qur'an, 39:6)

The expression "fee thulumatin thalathin," translated into English as "a threefold darkness," indicates three dark regions involved during the development of the embryo. These are:

The darkness of the abdomen

The darkness of the womb

The darkness of the placenta

As we have seen, modern biology has revealed that the embryological development of the baby takes place in the manner revealed in the verse, in three dark regions. Moreover, advances in the science of embryology show that these regions consist of three layers each.

The lateral abdominal wall comprises three layers: the external oblique, the internal oblique, and transverses abdominis muscles.87

Similarly, the wall of the womb also consists of three layers: the epimetrium, the myometrium and the endometrium.88

Similarly again, the placenta surrounding the embryo also consists of three layers: the amnion (the internal membrane around the fetus), the chorion (the middle amnion layer) and the decidua (outer amnion layer.)89

It is also pointed out in this verse that a human being is created in the mother's womb in three distinct stages.

Indeed, modern biology has also revealed that the baby's embryological development takes place in three distinct regions in the mother's womb. Today, in all the embryology textbooks studied in departments of medicine, this subject is taken as an element of basic knowledge. For instance, in Basic Human Embryology, a fundamental reference text in the field of embryology, this fact is stated as follows:

The life in the uterus has three stages: pre-embryonic; first two and a half weeks, embryonic; until the end of the eight week, and fetal; from the eight week to labor.90

These phases refer to the different developmental stages of a baby. In brief, the main characteristics of these developmental stages are as follows:

- Pre-embryonic Stage

In this first phase, the zygote grows by division, and when it becomes a cell cluster, it buries itself in the wall of the uterus. While they continue growing, the cells organize themselves in three layers.

- Embryonic Stage

The second phase lasts for five and a half weeks, during which the baby is referred to as an "embryo." During this stage, the basic organs and systems of the body start to appear from the cell layers.

- Foetal Stage

From this stage onward, the embryo is called a "foetus." This phase begins at the eighth week of gestation, and lasts until the moment of birth. The distinctive characteristic of this stage is that the foetus looks much like a human being, with its face, hands and feet. Although it is only 3 cm long initially, all of its organs have become apparent. This phase lasts for about 30 weeks, and development continues until the week of delivery.

Information on the development in the mother's womb became available only after observations with modern devices. Yet, just like many other scientific facts, in a miraculous way, Allah draws our attention to these items of information in the verses of the Qur'an. The fact that such detailed and accurate information was given in the Qur'an at a time when people had scarce information on medical matters is clear evidence that the Qur'an is the Word of Allah.


In Surat az-Zumar 6, it is pointed out that man is created in the mother's womb in three distinct regions. Indeed, modern embryology has revealed that the baby's embryological development takes place in three distinct regions in the mother's womb

THE CREATION OF HUMAN BEINGS FROM WATER

Allah created every [living] creature from water. Some of them go on their bellies, some of them on two legs, and some on four. Allah creates whatever He wills. Allah has power over all things. (Qur'an, 24:45)

Do those who disbelieve not see that the heavens and the earth were sewn together and then We unstitched them and that We made from water every living thing? So will they not believe? (Qur'an, 21:30)

And it is He Who created human beings from water and then gave them relations by blood and marriage. Your Lord is All-Powerful. (Qur'an, 25:54)

When we look at the verses concerned with the creation of human beings and living things, we clearly see evidence of a miracle. One such miracle is of the creation of living things from water. It was only possible for people to come by that information, clearly expressed in those verses, hundreds of years afterwards with the invention of the microscope.


All life forms need water in order to survive. Animals in dry regions, therefore, have been created with mechanisms to protect their metabolisms from water loss and to ensure maximum benefit from water use. If water loss takes place in the body for any reason, and if that loss is not made good, death will result in a few days. The famous 17th century scientist Jan Baptista van Helmont discovered in 1640s that water in the soil was the most important element of plant development.

The words "Water is the main component of organic matter. 50-90% of the weight of living things consists of water" appear regularly in encyclopaedias. Furthermore, 80% of the cytoplasm (basic cell material) of a standard animal cell is described as water in biology textbooks. The analysis of cytoplasm and its appearance in textbooks took place hundreds of years after the revelation of the Qur'an. It is therefore impossible for this fact, now accepted by the scientific community, to have been known at the time the Qur'an was revealed. Yet, attention was drawn to it in the Qur'an 1,400 years before its discovery.
Reply

icefirez
01-28-2010, 09:27 PM
THE EARTH’S GRAVITATIONAL FORCE

Did we not make the earth a receptacle? (Surat al-Mursalat, 25)

The Arabic word “kifatan,” translated as “receptacle” in the above verse, means “living things being gathered together and protected in their dwellings, places where living or inanimate things are gathered together; on which things are piled; place where things are collected.” “Kifatan” comes from root word “kafata,” which means “to collect, gather toward one, close embrace.”

With its gravitational force, the earth pulls the human beings and everything else on it, living or inanimate, toward its center. It is very likely that the use of a verb meaning “to pull toward one” refers to this force of gravity. (Allah knows the truth.)

It is thanks to the force of gravity that pulls the animals, plants, human beings and everything else on earth toward itself, that people are able to walk on the ground, stay where they are without flying off into the air, and orbit the earth without flying off into space, and that the rain is able to fall.

Sir Isaac Newton, regarded as one of the greatest scientists ever, investigated this feature of the earth and and made one of the greatest scientific discoveries of all time by speaking of gravity in his book Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica (The Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy), first published in 1687. The Latin word "attraere" Newton used in discussing gravity also means “to attract, bring together.” The reference in the Qur’an to one of the earth’s four great forces, only described in the 17th century, is just one of the proofs that the Qur’an was sent down from the presence of Allah.


THE IDENTITY IN THE FINGERPRINT


Everyone, including identical twins, has a unique fingerprint. In other words, people's identities are coded at their fingertips. This coding system may also be compared to the barcode system that is used today.

While it is stated in the Qur'an that it is easy for Allah to bring man back to life after death, peoples' fingerprints are particularly emphasized:

Yes, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers. (Qur'an, 75:4)

The emphasis on fingerprints has a very special meaning. This is because shapes and details on everyone's fingerprint are unique to each individual. Every person who is alive or who has ever lived in this world has a set of unique fingerprints. Furthermore, even identical twins having the very same DNA sequence have their own set of fingerprints.105

Fingerprints attain their final shape before birth and remain the same for a lifetime unless a permanent scar appears. That is why fingerprints are accepted as a very important proof of identity, exclusive to their owner. The science of fingerprints has been used as a non-erring identity determination method.

However, what is important is that this feature of fingerprints was only discovered in the late 19th century. Before then, people regarded fingerprints as ordinary curves without any specific importance or meaning. However in the Qur'an, Allah points to the fingertips, which did not attract anyone's attention at that time, and calls our attention to their importance. This importance has only been fully understood in our day

THE FOOD CYCLE

Allah splits the seed and kernel. He brings forth the living from the dead, and produces the dead out of the living. That is Allah, so how are you misguided? (Qur'an, 6:95)


As shown in the diagram, dead plants and animals are broken down by bacteria and transformed into minerals. This organic waste absorbed into the soil constitutes the basic foodstuff of plants. This nutritional cycle is therefore of vital importance for all living things.

In the above verse, our attention is drawn to a food cycle of which people at the time of the Qur'an's revelation could have known nothing.

When a living thing dies, micro-organisms quickly cause it to decompose. The dead body is thus divided up into organic molecules that mix with the soil and form the basic source of food for plants, animals, and, ultimately, humanity. Were it not for this nutritional cycle, life would not be possible.

Bacteria are responsible for meeting all living things' mineral and food needs. Plants and some animals, which remain almost dead (hibernation) throughout the winter, revive in the summer and meet all of their mineral and food requirements through the activities of bacteria during the winter. Throughout the winter, bacteria separate organic wastes (i.e., dead plants and animals) and turn them into minerals.162 Thus, when living things reawaken in spring, they find food ready and waiting for them. Thanks to bacteria, a "spring cleaning" has been carried out in their environment and the necessary amount of food has been prepared for nature as it returns to life in the spring.

As we have seen, dead creatures play a vital role in the emergence of new ones. This transition, indicated in the Qur'an as "He brings forth the living from the dead, and produces the dead out of the living," is carried out in the most perfect manner. This is one of the proofs that the Qur'an is the Word of Allah.

THE MOVEMENT OF MOUNTAINS

In one verse, we are informed that mountains are not motionless as they seem, but are in constant motion.

You see the mountains you reckoned to be solid going past like clouds. (Qur'an, 27:88)



This motion of mountains is caused by the movement of the Earth's crust that they are located on. The Earth's crust "floats" over the mantle layer, which is denser. It was at the beginning of the 20th century when, for the first time in history, a German scientist by the name of Alfred Wegener proposed that the continents of the Earth had been attached together when it first formed, but then drifted in different directions, and thus separated as they moved away from each other.

Geologists understood that Wegener was right only in the 1980s, 50 years after his death. As Wegener pointed out in an article published in 1915, the land masses on the Earth were joined together about 500 million years ago, and this large mass, called Pangaea, was located in the South Pole.

Approximately 180 million years ago, Pangaea divided into two parts, which drifted in different directions. One of these giant continents was Gondwana, which included Africa, Australia, Antarctica and India. The second one was Laurasia, which included Europe, North America and Asia, except for India. Over the next 150 million years following this separation, Gondwana and Laurasia divided into smaller parts.

These continents, that emerged after the split of Pangaea, have been constantly moving on the Earth's surface at a rate of several centimetres per year, and in the meantime changing the sea to land ratios of the Earth.



Discovered as a result of the geological research carried out at the beginning of the 20th century, this movement of the Earth's crust is explained by scientists as follows:

The crust and the uppermost part of the mantle, with a thickness of about 100 kms., are divided into segments called plates. There are six major plates, and several small ones. According to the theory called plate tectonics, these plates move about on Earth, carrying continents and ocean floor with them. Continental motion has been measured at from 1-5 cm per year. As the plates continue to move about, this will produce a slow change in Earth's geography. Each year, for instance, the Atlantic Ocean becomes slightly wider.29

There is an important point that needs to be stated here: Allah referred to the motion of mountains as drifting in a verse of the Qur'an. Today, modern scientists also use the term "continental drift" for this motion.30

Continental drift is something that could not have been observed at the time of the revelation of the Qur'an, though Allah clearly indicated how it was to be understood: "You see the mountains you reckoned to be solid" in the verse. Though, He further described this action in the following verse, stating that the mountains were going past like clouds. As has been indicated, attention is clearly drawn to the movement of the layer in which the mountains are fixed.

It is without doubt a great miracle that this scientific fact, only recently discovered by science, should have been revealed in the 7th century, when conceptions of the nature of the universe were based on superstition and myth. This is another very important proof that the Qur'an is the word of Allah.

THE RELATIVITY OF TIME

Today, the relativity of time is a proven scientific fact. This was revealed by Einstein's theory of relativity during the early part of the 20th century. Until then, it was not known that time was relative, nor that it could change according to the circumstances. Yet, the renowned scientist Albert Einstein proved this fact by discovering the theory of relativity. He showed that time is dependent on mass and velocity.

However, the Qur'an had already included information about time's being relative! Some verses about the subject read:

… A day with your Lord is equivalent to a thousand years in the way you count. (Qur'an, 22:47)

He directs the whole affair from heaven to earth. Then it will again ascend to Him on a Day whose length is a thousand years by the way you measure. (Qur'an, 32:5)

The angels and the Spirit ascend to Him in a day whose length is fifty thousand years. (Qur'an, 70:4)

The fact that the relativity of time is so definitely mentioned in the Qur'an, which began to be revealed in 610, is more evidence that it is a divine book.

BLACK HOLES

The 20th century saw a great many new discoveries regarding celestial phenomena in the universe. One of these entities, which has only recently been encountered, is the Black Hole. These are formed when a star which has consumed all its fuel collapses in on itself, eventually turning into a black hole with infinite density and zero volume and an immensely powerful magnetic field. We are unable to see black holes even with the most powerful telescope, because their gravitational pull is so strong that light is unable to escape from them. However, such a collapsed star can be perceived by means of the effect it has on the surrounding area. In Surat al-Waqi'a, Allah draws attention this matter in this way, by swearing upon the position of stars:

And I swear by the stars' positions-and that is a mighty oath if you only knew. (Qur'an, 56:75-76)



The term "black hole" was first employed in 1969 by the American physicist John Wheeler. Previously, we imagined that we were able to see all the stars. However, it later emerged that there were stars in space whose light we were unable to perceive. Because, the light of these collapsed stars disappears. Light cannot escape from a black hole because it is such a high concentration of mass in a small space. The enormous gravitation captures even the fastest particles, i.e. the photons. For example, the final stage of a typical star, three times the mass of the Sun, ends after its burning out and its implosion as a black hole of only 20 kilometres in diameter! Black holes are "black," i.e. veiled from direct observation. They nevertheless reveal themselves indirectly, by the tremendous suction which their gravitational force exerts on other heavenly bodies. As well as depictions of the Day of Judgement, the verse below may also be pointing to this scientific discovery about black holes:

When the stars are extinguished, (Qur'an, 77:8)

Moreover, stars of great mass also cause warps to be perceived in space. Black holes, however, do not just cause warps in space but also tear holes in it. That is why these collapsed stars are known as black holes. This fact may be referred to in the verse about stars, and this is another important item of information demonstrating that the Qur'an is the Word of Allah:

[I swear] by Heaven and the Tariq! And what will convey to you what the Tariq is? The Star Piercing [the darkness]! (Qur'an, 86:1-3)

THE IMPORTANCE OF MOVEMENT IN SLEEP

You would have supposed them to be awake, whereas in fact they were asleep. We moved them to the right and to the left, and, at the entrance, their dog stretched out its paws. If you had looked down and seen them, you would have turned from them and run, and have been filled with terror at the sight of them. (Qur'an, 18:18)

The above verse refers to the People of the Cave, who remained asleep for hundreds of years. In addition, Allah also reveals that He moved their bodies to the left and right. The wisdom of this was only discovered in recent times.

People who remain lying down in the same position for long period of time encounter serious health problems, such as circulation difficulties, sores, and blood clotting in that part of the body in contact with the surface on which they lie.164

The resulting sores are known as "bed sores" or "pressure sores." Due to the constant pressure on one part of the body when one is not moving for a long period of time, the blood vessels become constricted and can close altogether. As a result, the oxygen and other nutrients carried by the blood fail to reach the skin, and the skin begins to die. This leads to the appearance of sores on the body. Unless these sores are treated, fat and muscles can also die.165

These sores, which form under the skin or tissue, can assume serious dimensions unless treated. If they become infected, they can even lead to death. The healthiest thing to do, therefore, is to change the position of the body every 15 minutes in order to reduce this pressure. Patients who cannot move themselves therefore receive special care and are moved every 2 hours by other people.166 The fact that these medical facts, only discovered in the last century, are referred to in the Qur'an is yet another of its miracles.

DUALITY IN CREATION

Glory be to Him Who created all the pairs: from what the earth produces and from themselves and from things unknown to them. (Qur'an, 36:36)


There are antimatter equivalents of all the basic particles in the universe. Antimatters possess the same mass but carry opposite charges. For that reason, when matter and antimatter make contact they disappear by turning into energy.
While "male and female" is equivalent to the concept of "pair," "things unknown to them," as expressed in the Qur'an, bears a broader meaning. Indeed, we encounter one of the meanings pointed to in the verse in the present day. The British physicist Paul Dirac, who discovered that matter was created in pairs, won the Nobel Prize for Physics in 1933. This finding, known as "parity," revealed the duality known as matter and anti-matter. Anti-matter bears the opposite characteristics to matter. For instance, contrary to matter, anti-matter electrons are positive and protons negative. This fact is expressed in a scientific source as follows:

... every particle has its antiparticle of opposite charge… [T]he uncertainty relation tells us that pair creation and pair annihilation happen in the vacuum at all times, in all places.47

Another example of duality in creation is plants. Botanists only discovered that there is a gender distinction in plants some 100 years ago.48 Yet, the fact that plants are created in pairs was revealed in the following verses of the Qur'an 1,400 years ago:

It is Allah Who created the heavens with no support-you can see them-and cast firmly embedded mountains on the earth so that it would not move under you, and scattered about in it creatures of every kind. And We send down water from the sky and make every generous plant grow in it, in pairs. (Qur'an, 31:10)

It is He Who made the earth a cradle for you and threaded pathways for you through it and sent down water from the sky by which We have brought forth diverse pairs of plants. (Qur'an, 20:53)
......
Reply

icefirez
01-28-2010, 09:32 PM
THE PROPORTION OF RAIN

Another item of information provided in the Qur'an about rain is that it is sent down to Earth in "due measure." This is mentioned in Surat az-Zukhruf as follows:

It is He Who sends down water in due measure from the sky by which We bring a dead land back to life. That is how you too will be raised [from the dead]. (Qur'an, 43:11)

This measured quantity in rain has again been discovered by modern research. It is estimated that in one second, approximately 16 million tons of water evaporates from the Earth. This figure amounts to 513 trillion tons of water in one year. This number is equal to the amount of rain that falls on the Earth in a year. Therefore, water continuously circulates in a balanced cycle, according to a "measure." Life on Earth depends on this water cycle. Even if all the available technology in the world were to be employed for this purpose, this cycle could not be reproduced artificially.

Even a minor deviation in this equilibrium would soon give rise to a major ecological imbalance that would bring about the end of life on Earth. Yet, it never happens, and rain continues to fall every year in exactly the same measure, just as revealed in the Qur'an.

The proportion of rain does not merely apply to its quantity, but also to the speed of the falling raindrops. The speed of raindrops, regardless of their size, does not exceed a certain limit.



Every year, the amount of water that evaporates and that falls back to the Earth in the form of rain is "constant": 513 trillion tons. This constant amount is declared in the Qur'an by the expression "sending down water in due measure from the sky." The constancy of this quantity is very important for the continuity of the ecological balance, and therefore, life.
Philipp Lenard, a German physicist who received the Nobel Prize in physics in 1905, found that the fall speed increased with drop diameter until a size of 4.5 mm (0.18 inch). For larger drops, however, the fall speed did not increase beyond 8 metres per second (26 ft/sec).54 He attributed this to the changes in drop shape caused by the air flow as the drop size increased. The change in shape thus increased the air resistance of the drop and slowed its fall rate.

As can be seen, the Qur'an may also be drawing our attention to the subtle adjustment in rain which could not have been known 1,400 years ago.
also go too google check mathematical miracles of Quran....I'm tired showing fact that Allah brought to us from quran...they just are arogants that don't want too understand that ..universe its not createt coincidencly
Reply

icefirez
01-28-2010, 09:48 PM



Let me begin by a scientific discovery, a few decades ago: (as pictured above)

A Lunar Rille
Credit: Apollo 10, NASA Explanation: What could cause a long indentation on the Moon? First discovered over 200 years ago with a small telescope, rilles (rhymes with pills) appear all over the Moon. Three types of rilles are now recognized: sinuous rilles, which have many meandering curves, arcuate rilles which form sweeping arcs, and straight rilles, like Ariadaeus Rille pictured above. Long rilles such as Ariadaeus Rille extend for hundreds of kilometers. Sinuous rilles are now thought to be remnants of ancient lava flows, but the origins of arcuate and linear rilles are still a topic of research. The above linear rille was photographed by the Apollo 10 crew in 1969 during their historic approach to only 14-kilometers above the lunar surface. Two months later, Apollo 11, incorporating much knowledge gained from Apollo 10, landed on the Moon.

Can you see a connection with a Wikipedia biography about King Cheraman Perumal? (emphasis mine)

Cheraman Perumal was … a King of the Chera dynasty in Kerala in the late 8th Century AD …



Cheraman Perumal asked them what is this Islam which can so radically change the conduct of Arab thugs (who were so feared in Kerala that when an Arab ship downed anchor in port, people hid their women and buried their treasure) to so decent a nature that the populace was attracted to their trade and religion. The Arabs then described the tenets of Islam and talked about their Prophet. The king then wanted to know if there was any proof that this person is indeed a Prophet. The traders described the Mujizaat (supernatural deeds) of the Prophet, including the Shaqq Al Qamar or the Splitting of the moon into two.

Cheraman Perumal then summoned his Hindu Astrologers who consulted their almanacs and reported a similar phenomenon recorded by them. The King forthwith abdicated his throne and left with Malik Bin Deenar for Arabia where it is chronicled that he met the Prophet Muhammad, accepted Islam and performed the famous Last Hajj with him. On his journey back, he was drowned in a tempest which destroyed his ship and his body came ashore at Salalah, Oman where his grave is a famous landmark today.

The above is confirmed by Muhammad Hamidullah’s book, titled “Muhammad Rasulullah: A concise survey of the life and work of the founder of Islam” (1979), quoted:

There is a very old tradition in Malabar, South-West Coast of India, that Chakrawati Farmas, one of their kings, had observed the splitting of the moon, the celebrated miracle of the Holy Prophet at Mecca, and learning on inquiry that there was a prediction of the coming of a Messenger of God from Arabia (Detail given bellow), he appointed his son as regent and set out to meet him. He embraced Islam at the hand of the Prophet, and when returning home, at the direction of the Prophet, died at the port of Zafar, Yemen, where the tomb of the “Indian king” was piously visited for many centuries.

Note: Chakrawati Farmas and Cheraman Perumal are the same person.

Finally, can you see again, the connection with one of Islamic teachings, written directly in the Holy Quran?

Did The Prophet Muhammad split the moon as a miracle?

In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate

The Hour has approached, and the moon split. But whenever they see a sign, they turn away and say, ‘This is evident magic.’ (54:1-2)

The miracle of the splitting of the moon was demonstrated before a certain gathering who persisted in denial of Muhammad’s Prophethood. As was related by ‘Adbullah ibn Mas‘ud, while they were in Mina’ one night, the Prophet split the moon into two by a gesture of his index finger. The halves of the moon appeared one behind the mountain and the other in front of it. Then, the Prophet turned to us and said: ‘Be witnesses!’
Reply

icefirez
01-28-2010, 09:50 PM



im sorry couldnt edit my post that i maked before here is the pic check it
Reply

icefirez
01-28-2010, 09:53 PM
AERODYNAMIC FORCES AND THE FLIGHT PROGRAMMED IN BIRDS

Do they not see the birds suspended in mid-air up in the sky? Nothing holds them there except Allah. There are certainly signs in that for people who believe. (Surat an-Nahl, 79)

Due to the force of gravity, all bodies left in the air will eventually fall to earth, either fast or slowly. Everything, living or otherwise, is subject to gravity. But as a miracle of Allah (God) birds are able to resist this force and fly upward and downward in the air. They maneuver in the air, and sometimes even fold their wings and glide through it. All details in birds, from their feathers to their lungs, from the arrangement of their feathers to the shape of their wings, are equipped with a special feature and order intended to enable them to fly. A chick totally unaware of the act of flight and the laws of aerodynamics is born with the ability to fly. The chick launches itself downwards and begins to fly, just as if it knew its body was created for flight. This is not information that is taught subsequently or that a bird learns by trial and error. The way a bird knows it has the body structure needed to fly, finds the courage to launch itself into the air and then flies without hitting the ground all happens through Allah’s inspiration.

The Arabic word “yumsikuhunna” translated as “holds” in verse 79 of Surat an-Nahl means “not letting them go, taking them, catching them, or holding them.” The word is the present tense of the verse “amsaka,” meaning “to catch with the hand, hold and pull back.” With this word, our Almighty Lord reveals that He holds the bird in the air and that it flies by His command. Bird flight is still the subject of wide-ranging research by scientists. Having observed the perfection in bird flight, scientists use the avian body and avian flight as direct models in producing such vehicle as airplanes and jets.

Verse 79 of Surat an-Nahl may in one way be indicating the way that birds comply with the aerodynamic laws created by Allah as they fly. (Allah knows the truth.) The science of aerodynamics studies the behavior of solid bodies in a fluid environment such as air. For example, as a plane moves through the air, various forces emerge that affect that movement. In order for the plane to move as planned and not to run into any unexpected forces or resistance, the plane is tested beforehand against the resistance exhibited by the air. Its movement is planned as a result of lengthy calculations, measurements and experiments.

The way that birds comply with the principles of aerodynamics continues to astonish scientists. Using no form of trial and error, they cope with the laws of aerodynamics in the most perfect manner. The use of the word " musakhkharatin" (suspended) in the verse to describe bird flight is exceedingly wise. Because it suggests that they have been “encouraged to a specific end, have had to do something, have submitted or bowed their heads, have bound themselves to Allah or have submitted to His laws”. In that way, the verse may be indicating the way that aerodynamic laws have a determining influence on bird flight. (Allah knows the truth.)

At first sight there would appear to be nothing to make it difficult for birds to fly. But according to aerodynamics, any object flying in the air is subject to various different forces. The best-known of these are gravity, propulsion, drag and lift. In order for meaningful flight to take place, these forces have to be balanced. For example, if gravity is stronger than the other forces, the bird will fall to earth. That is why the word in the verse is the best possible expression of birds’ condition as they are subjected to these forces. The presence in the Qur’an of expressions containing such information at a time when no science of aerodynamics or mechanics existed, once again reveals that the Qur’an is a divine text.

[IMG]http://www.miraclesof*************/images/scientific_94_clip_image002.jpg[/IMG]

The tops of birds’ wings are curved, the bottoms flat. This shape produces lower pressure on the top compared to the bottom. This difference in air pressure produces a lift force that enables the bird to rise in the air by beating its wings upward. (right)
(1) The air moving rapidly around the bird’s wings produces the lift force. (2) The bird bends its wings in order to obtain greater lift force. The air flowing over the wings is thus accelerated. (3) If it inclines its wings upward at a very steep angle, air cannot easily flow to the upper parts of the wings and the bird loses speed and stalls. Through Allah’s inspiration, birds make use of the principles of aerodynamics as they fly. 2

[IMG]http://www.miraclesof*************/images/scientific_94_clip_image004.jpg[/IMG]

In addition to the aerodynamic perfection in bird flight, scientists are also researching the migrations of thousands of kilometers that they make. Ornithologists have today concluded that these are literally programmed in them. The way that young birds are able to undertake long and arduous journeys with no guide or previous experience is the most obvious example of this. The Arabic word “musakhkharatin" in the verse quoted above implies “being encouraged toward a specific target, being taken under command, being taken under submission,” clearly revealing that birds obey the instructions they are given when following the directions set out for them. There is no possibility of birds, which are devoid of intellect and consciousness, managing to make their own calculations as they fly along. Scientists today are agreed that these extraordinary abilities in birds are “pre-programmed” in them. This is set out in an article in the journal Science:

There is good evidence that young birds are equipped with endogenous migratory programs, which tell them roughly how many days and/or nights that they must fly, and in what direction.3

In his book La Puissance et la Fragilité, Prof. Pierre Jean Hamburger from René Descartes University describes the extraordinary 24,000-kilometer journey made by the shearwater that lives in the Pacific Ocean:

It sets out from the coast of Australia. From there it flies straight southward to the Pacific. Then it turns north and flies along the coast of Japan until reaching the Bering Sea where it can rest for a while. Following that break it sets off again, and this time heads south. Crossing the western coast of America, it arrives in California. It then crosses the Pacific to return to its starting point. The route and timing of this 15,000-mile (24,000-kilometer) figure ‘8’ journey it makes every year never change. The journey in question lasts a whole six months, always coming to an end in the third week of September on the island it left six months before, at the nest it left six months before. What comes next is even more astonishing; after their return, the birds clean their nests, mate, and lay a single egg over the last 10 days of October. The chicks hatch out two months later, grow very fast and are cared for over three months until their parents set out on that stupendous journey. Two weeks later; around the middle of April, it is time for the young birds to take wing on their own journey. They follow exactly the same route as that described above, with no guide. The explanation is so obvious: These birds must have all the directions for such a journey within the inherited characteristics passed on within the egg. Some people may claim that birds navigate by the Sun and stars or follow the winds prevailing along their route on this journey out and back. But it is clear that these factors cannot determine the journey’s geographical and chronological accuracy.4

Prof. Peter Berthold is a famous ornithologist who has investigated bird migration for 20 years and president of the Max Planck Institute Ornithological Research Center in Germany. He says the following about bird migration:

Every year an estimated 50 billion birds make migratory journeys, cealong a network of routes that encompasses the whole world. Sometimes travelling tens of thousands of kilometers, crossing continents and oceans, migratory birds have become so well adapted to this task that they can traverse the largest deserts and seas, the highest mountains and expanses of ice... migratory birds have comprehensive, detailed, innate spatio-temporal programs for successful migration. Such programs evidently enable even young, inexperienced birds to migrate alone, with no adult guide, to the species- or population-specific winter quarters that they have never seen before. As will be explained further below, they do this by "vector" navigation: referring to a vector composed of a genetically predetermined migratory direction and to a time-plan, also genetically predetermined, for the course of migration... It follows that the departure time is programmed by genetic factors... But how do birds "know" the direction in which to migrate, so that they will reach their specific winter quarters? Here, again data have been obtained that point to direct genetic control mechanisms. It has long been suspected that migration directions are innate... when displaced from the normal starting point, and still more crucially, when tested in orientation cages, migratory birds showed directional preferences practically identical to the normal ones, even if they had never migrated before. Now a number of experiments have provided evidence of the genetic determination of migration direction... Even these directional changes are evidently programmed endogenously to a great extent... With an innate pattern of migratory activity, the birds possess a genetically determined migration schedule. In combination with genetically determined migratory directions, as mentioned above, it guides even inexperienced individuals, migrating for the first time, "automatically" to their previously unknown winter quarters (vector navigation, using a vector composed of a time- and a direction-plan).5

In conclusion, although scientists are unable to fully account for it, scientists still agree that migration is pre-programmed behavior that birds possess from birth. Journeys lasting thousands of kilometers, the preparations made for these flights and bird’s ability to find their way and navigate during flight all take place by our Lord’s choosing, as expressed in the above verse. The accuracy of all the information provided in the Qur’an is important evidence that this information has all been revealed by Allah.

1 http://www.drbonesshow.com/page6.html

2 From the book Birds and the Origin of Flight.
Reply

Life_Is_Short
01-29-2010, 03:52 AM
:sl:

I still consider evolution to be a theory. If life did evolve from a common ancester than there should be countless examples of half-bird-half-fish or so called 'useful' mutations. The fossil records don't make sense.There is no experiment to prove that the simplest life form can be formed from matter. None at all. Evolutionist can not explain how things could have evolved at cellular level. There are so many things unanswered and untested. Evolution is a scientific theory. "No human investigation can be called true science without passing through mathematical tests" [Leonardo Da Vinci].

I went onto learn about the theory of evolution with an open-mind at college although I am a muslim and believe Allah created everything. When i learnt about how evolution happens, these questions were automatically raised. :hmm: ,

I find Theory of Evolution very interesting. When they teach you at college everything seems to fit together but when you go out and research it's a different story.
Reply

CosmicPathos
01-29-2010, 04:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Santoku
Hmm Let us check this out.

number(arabians)
Nope Indians.

trigonometry(arabian scientist discoverid)
Nope Ancient Greeks, plus Babylonians and Egyptians (hence the Greek derived name)

lunar calendar(arabians too)
Nope Chinese

big bang(explonation in qur'an)
Only if you torture the translation.

relativity theory(if you search deep more you will find it to but only u need to understand)
Give me the Surah number so I can check, please..

black seed(miracle of this are now discovered)
And ancient herbalists many of whom were very skilled did not know of this?

brakeage of moon(now discovered)
Really? When and where scientific papers please?

sun orbit(written in qur'an 1400 years ago)
As written the phrases seem more to link the orbits of sun and moon with day and night not with the galactic centre (if not then why are day and night and the orbits of the sun and moon in the same surah?)

two seas they dont mix (written in qur'an 1400 years ago)
Which two seas, where are these two seas indentified in the Qu'ran?
And if it refers to the Mediterranean and Atlantic what makes you think that nobody had ever discovered the differences in salinity between the two?

man created from water(genetic proves now after 1400 passed from qur'an came)
Genetic proof? Man is made up of much more than water, but then was there not mention af man also being made of dirt?

mountains are seal of world(now proven that mountains save world for earthshake)
Then why are there earthquakes in mountainous areas?

winds are warns for bad weather(proved)
And the ancients had not observed this for themselves?

everything is pair
Including amoebas? Viruses? Bacteria?

hey hey mister, not so quick.

I believe when Quran talks about pairs, it refers to living things. As such, viruses are out of the picture. Regarding bacteria, they have F plasmids which render the bacteria "male" because it can express pillus proteins for transferring genomic information to (F-) female bacteria via conjugation. This is horizontal transfer and called "sexual reporduction" of bacteria even though its quite different from that in humans. Regardless, the polarization of two bacteria and the formation of "sex pillus" suggests "pairing" as the transfer of genetic information in conjugation is always from (F+) to (F-) bacteria. But.


you might argue that a (F+) bacteria can however become (F-) if it looses the plasmid. Sure. Just like how the pairs of humans can undergo changes. Loss of Y chromosome in males will give them female characteristics, as all Y chromosome codes for everything that gives masculine properties.

Regarding amoeba, ill let science discover more. And even then, the idea of asexual reproduction is not alien to humans. Our somatic cells divide asexually, very similar to how amoeba divides, through mitosis. The lack of apparent "pairing" in amoeba then is very similar to the lack of apparent pairing in human somatic cells.

Rest of your claims are bogus. I do not even need to address them.
Reply

Life_Is_Short
01-29-2010, 04:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Santoku
Hmm Let us check this out.

number(arabians)
Nope Indians.

trigonometry(arabian scientist discoverid)
Nope Ancient Greeks, plus Babylonians and Egyptians (hence the Greek derived name)

lunar calendar(arabians too)
Nope Chinese

big bang(explonation in qur'an)
Only if you torture the translation.

relativity theory(if you search deep more you will find it to but only u need to understand)
Give me the Surah number so I can check, please..

black seed(miracle of this are now discovered)
And ancient herbalists many of whom were very skilled did not know of this?

brakeage of moon(now discovered)
Really? When and where scientific papers please?

sun orbit(written in qur'an 1400 years ago)
As written the phrases seem more to link the orbits of sun and moon with day and night not with the galactic centre (if not then why are day and night and the orbits of the sun and moon in the same surah?)

two seas they dont mix (written in qur'an 1400 years ago)
Which two seas, where are these two seas indentified in the Qu'ran?
And if it refers to the Mediterranean and Atlantic what makes you think that nobody had ever discovered the differences in salinity between the two?

man created from water(genetic proves now after 1400 passed from qur'an came)
Genetic proof? Man is made up of much more than water, but then was there not mention af man also being made of dirt?

mountains are seal of world(now proven that mountains save world for earthshake)
Then why are there earthquakes in mountainous areas?

winds are warns for bad weather(proved)
And the ancients had not observed this for themselves?

everything is pair
Including amoebas? Viruses? Bacteria?
Keep in mind that the quran is not a book of science. It is not made to guide people to scientific discoveries but surely enough, when it speaks of science, it never contradicts what we know today.
Reply

Uthman
01-29-2010, 12:39 PM
Please stick to the topic, folks. :)

The topic is about evolution.
Reply

Santoku
01-29-2010, 06:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Wa7abiScientist
hey hey mister, not so quick.

I believe when Quran talks about pairs, it refers to living things. As such, viruses are out of the picture. Regarding bacteria, they have F plasmids which render the bacteria "male" because it can express pillus proteins for transferring genomic information to (F-) female bacteria via conjugation. This is horizontal transfer and called "sexual reporduction" of bacteria even though its quite different from that in humans. Regardless, the polarization of two bacteria and the formation of "sex pillus" suggests "pairing" as the transfer of genetic information in conjugation is always from (F+) to (F-) bacteria. But.


you might argue that a (F+) bacteria can however become (F-) if it looses the plasmid. Sure. Just like how the pairs of humans can undergo changes. Loss of Y chromosome in males will give them female characteristics, as all Y chromosome codes for everything that gives masculine properties.

Regarding amoeba, ill let science discover more. And even then, the idea of asexual reproduction is not alien to humans. Our somatic cells divide asexually, very similar to how amoeba divides, through mitosis. The lack of apparent "pairing" in amoeba then is very similar to the lack of apparent pairing in human somatic cells.

Rest of your claims are bogus. I do not even need to address them.
For now I will accept your claim on the bacteria, but I will need to check that.

But you mean that the Indians did not invent the zero? Better recheck your history.
You mean that Pythagoras theorem was produced by an arab?
You mean that primitive man never held his finger up and said words to the effect of "Hmm! Winds are getting up some chances are we are headed for a storm!"
That the herbalists who investigated the properties of every other plant somehow missed out on the blackseeds.

When you have shown these things false then I will deal with the rest of your thoroughly bogus refutation.
Reply

Uthman
01-29-2010, 06:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Santoku
When you have shown these things false then I will deal with the rest of your thoroughly bogus refutation.
In another thread though. :)
Reply

skatteress
02-06-2010, 08:30 PM
no. i dont belive in evelution.. alalh created us .. and i belive in allah.. alhaduillah
Reply

skatteress
02-06-2010, 08:31 PM
evolution*******
Reply

Rialah
02-23-2010, 08:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by skatteress
evolution*******
Okay... I am an applied Microbiologist, so.. I will try to help on the issue of evolution.

Evolution could be defined as the hierachal process where by life began on earth and from one small life form man evolved as a higher being.

Tricky area as some scientist beleive this began with a big bang, like a spontaneous reaction and others think it began by a slow process that was almost unnoticed and then single celled and multicellur organisms evolved then multicellular organisms developed specialised mechanisms and functions and so on.

From a religion based perspective, in hearing this , one could easily be quick to say hey now way did I evolve from a nematode.

That is fair.

Let us however consider the important aspects of the study and applications of evolution today.

  • I can confirm that there are singe celled and multicelled organisms, I know and can confirm that there are multicelled organisms and single celled organisms who have a very complex and multidisciplinary genetic structure and functionalism. We use them and benefit from them in everyday life right down to the water we drink, the oxygen in the air we breathe, the food we eat and digestion of our food as well as waste control and management to mention a few.
  • If one stops to consider the evolutionary theory in a nuclear environment, then it exists eg every individual is inherently endowed with genetic components that are selectively, randomly selected and segregated during the conception process, i.e you get half of your mum and half of your dad and your mum and dad are half their mums and dads and so on.. ..... This process is one that is random and selective and some rely on what scientists call Darwinian laws to try to expantiate on this i.e Charles Darwin. The simplicity of this is that the above is the process of evolution in todays world and it is proven to be correct within scientific parameters but because I beleive in Almighty Allah, I refer to what is known as random selection and independent assortment, independent segregation and so on as the power of Allah as no man has yet worked out how each individuals genetic makeup is selected except that some are traits that are common to women and men and this is only because women genetically inherit a different set of chromosomes to men. XX vs XY, so if you only find a genetic trait on a Y chromosome, you can easily deduce that there is high probability it does affect or influence that trait in a woman and only a man and or can only be passed to a man and not to a woamn etc.
  • The advances to science mean that we are now able to pin down certain traits which are genetic and can cause disease. The thing to remember here is that although some people are more predisposed to a disease or illness due to carrying a trait which may increase their risk it does not necessarily mean they go on to have that illness and likewise others may develop similar illnesses and diseases due to other reasons sometimes referred to as environmental influences.
  • Advances in science also teach us that if we all have chromosomes eg XX and XY then imagine a great big Y and a great big X that is made up of little dots, each dot is a trait, like skin colour, eye colour, hair texture, hair colour, size of hands, size of feet, ears nose shape, nose size, lip size and so on and these are independently sorted, randomly passed on by chance during conception then evolution becomes an important area of study for use in control of illness and disease.
By the way,.... interestingly, microoganisms do the same and they have powers stronger than humans as a collective to mutate at a more rapid rate, that is when they adapt and change certain genetic traits in their cellular structure to prevent them from dying out like becoming heat or anitbiotic resistant and here I should also say that microorganisms are responsible for good things too like ecosystem maintennance, food production, study of and control of disease and much more.

Overall .... I would say evolution is a viable and existing aspect of life and there is a lot of evidence to give credence to this phenomena and it is worthwhile to note that in the scientific community, there are varied and very different thoughts, ideas, philosophies and so on regarding this matter. and to be quite honest, during my first years of study, in class we were asked to indicate if we beleived evolution, genetic inheritance, Mendellian law etc, I did not put my hand up to indicate anything and no one noticed.

Now that I have finished undergraduate study, I still won't, but I will and have explained as best as I can bits of what I remember right now as I am writing of what I know.

I hope it helps those who are in the dark on the topic.

Masalaam
Reply

Nokiacrazi
02-23-2010, 08:22 PM
"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of ..." [Surah Al-Waqi'ah - 56:57]

Allah says in the Qur'an is so many places that we have been made. We hear and we obey insha'Allah.
Reply

Chuck
02-23-2010, 09:46 PM
Made doesn't necessarly mean that Allah has credited us without any physical process. That process could be evolution, but since any specific nature of process is not mentioned so that is a conjure.

In other place, surah Nuh, Allah says
And Allah has made you grow out of the earth as a growth:
Then He returns you to it, then will He bring you forth a (new) bringing forth:
Another point to note:
O children of Adam! We have indeed sent down to you clothing to cover your shame, and (clothing) for beauty and clothing that guards (against evil), that is the best. This is of the communications of Allah that they may be mindful.

(Quran 7:26)
In the above verse, it is said that clothing has been sent down to us but that doesn't mean that cloth falls down from sky.
Reply

Nokiacrazi
02-23-2010, 09:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
Made doesn't necessarly mean that Allah has credited us without any physical process. That process could be evolution, but since any specific nature of process is not mentioned so that is a conjure.

In other place, surah Nuh, Allah says


Another point to note:

In the above verse, it is said that clothing has been sent down to us but that doesn't mean that cloth falls down from sky.
True brother. But in the case of the creation of Adam (pbuh) Allah says "Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was." [Surah Ali Imran - 3:59]

"O mankind, fear your Lord, who created you from one soul and created from it its mate and dispersed from both of them many men and women. And fear Allah , through whom you ask one another, and the wombs. Indeed Allah is ever, over you, an Observer." [Surah An Nisa - 4:1]

Allah knows best.
Reply

CosmicPathos
02-24-2010, 12:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nokiacrazi
True brother. But in the case of the creation of Adam (pbuh) Allah says "Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was." [Surah Ali Imran - 3:59]

"O mankind, fear your Lord, who created you from one soul and created from it its mate and dispersed from both of them many men and women. And fear Allah , through whom you ask one another, and the wombs. Indeed Allah is ever, over you, an Observer." [Surah An Nisa - 4:1]

Allah knows best.
But was Jesus created from dust? He was conceived from Merium's womb without any father. I cannot, however, say anything about whether Jesus had Y chromosome (others as well which a father gives) or not.

How was Adam conceived? THere was no human before him. If we have to interpret that verse as you are suggesting, brother, then it is a contradictory verse.

Current evolutionary theory of modern man says that man has emerged through different lines of descent from the primitive man-like ancestor in different parts of the world. Neanderthal, which was the final outcome of one such line of descent, lived along with Homo-sapiens about 50,000 years ago! This line of though contradicts Quran where it is mentioned that there was only first human (Adam), not multitudes who had just evolved from the primitives as evolutionary anthropologists would have us believe.

Only if I was born 50,000 years ago, I could see if evolution from primitive is truly the reality or not.

And if modern man is really at least 200,000 years old, we have spent quite a lot of time waiting for the judgment day to come. At least that is what that man from 200,000 years ago would think if he was present now. The interval of 1500 years since the passing away of the Prophet (pbuh) seems such a distant past, just imagine 200,000 years. :-\

Here is a proposed image of one such Neanderthal. Surprisingly, does not he look like Aboriginals? http://www.fabioruini.eu/blog/wp-con...erthal-615.jpg
Reply

CosmicPathos
02-24-2010, 12:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Rialah
Okay... I am an applied Microbiologist, so.. I will try to help on the issue of evolution.

Evolution could be defined as the hierachal process where by life began on earth and from one small life form man evolved as a higher being.

Tricky area as some scientist beleive this began with a big bang, like a spontaneous reaction and others think it began by a slow process that was almost unnoticed and then single celled and multicellur organisms evolved then multicellular organisms developed specialised mechanisms and functions and so on.

From a religion based perspective, in hearing this , one could easily be quick to say hey now way did I evolve from a nematode.

That is fair.

Let us however consider the important aspects of the study and applications of evolution today.

  • I can confirm that there are singe celled and multicelled organisms, I know and can confirm that there are multicelled organisms and single celled organisms who have a very complex and multidisciplinary genetic structure and functionalism. We use them and benefit from them in everyday life right down to the water we drink, the oxygen in the air we breathe, the food we eat and digestion of our food as well as waste control and management to mention a few.
  • If one stops to consider the evolutionary theory in a nuclear environment, then it exists eg every individual is inherently endowed with genetic components that are selectively, randomly selected and segregated during the conception process, i.e you get half of your mum and half of your dad and your mum and dad are half their mums and dads and so on.. ..... This process is one that is random and selective and some rely on what scientists call Darwinian laws to try to expantiate on this i.e Charles Darwin. The simplicity of this is that the above is the process of evolution in todays world and it is proven to be correct within scientific parameters but because I beleive in Almighty Allah, I refer to what is known as random selection and independent assortment, independent segregation and so on as the power of Allah as no man has yet worked out how each individuals genetic makeup is selected except that some are traits that are common to women and men and this is only because women genetically inherit a different set of chromosomes to men. XX vs XY, so if you only find a genetic trait on a Y chromosome, you can easily deduce that there is high probability it does affect or influence that trait in a woman and only a man and or can only be passed to a man and not to a woamn etc.
  • The advances to science mean that we are now able to pin down certain traits which are genetic and can cause disease. The thing to remember here is that although some people are more predisposed to a disease or illness due to carrying a trait which may increase their risk it does not necessarily mean they go on to have that illness and likewise others may develop similar illnesses and diseases due to other reasons sometimes referred to as environmental influences.
  • Advances in science also teach us that if we all have chromosomes eg XX and XY then imagine a great big Y and a great big X that is made up of little dots, each dot is a trait, like skin colour, eye colour, hair texture, hair colour, size of hands, size of feet, ears nose shape, nose size, lip size and so on and these are independently sorted, randomly passed on by chance during conception then evolution becomes an important area of study for use in control of illness and disease.
By the way,.... interestingly, microoganisms do the same and they have powers stronger than humans as a collective to mutate at a more rapid rate, that is when they adapt and change certain genetic traits in their cellular structure to prevent them from dying out like becoming heat or anitbiotic resistant and here I should also say that microorganisms are responsible for good things too like ecosystem maintennance, food production, study of and control of disease and much more.

Overall .... I would say evolution is a viable and existing aspect of life and there is a lot of evidence to give credence to this phenomena and it is worthwhile to note that in the scientific community, there are varied and very different thoughts, ideas, philosophies and so on regarding this matter. and to be quite honest, during my first years of study, in class we were asked to indicate if we beleived evolution, genetic inheritance, Mendellian law etc, I did not put my hand up to indicate anything and no one noticed.

Now that I have finished undergraduate study, I still won't, but I will and have explained as best as I can bits of what I remember right now as I am writing of what I know.

I hope it helps those who are in the dark on the topic.

Masalaam
Fair enough. How you define random though? Is independent assortment of genes during meiosis purely random? Just because we cannot measure the pattern in which the chromosomes assort, can we say its random? Many factors play a role in assortment of chromsomes, ranging from their weight to the interaction of kinetochores with spindle fibres. How can "randomness" be maintained one so many different parts of diverse processes unite together to create gametes?

SubhanAllah. its like an orchestra. One protein messes up, the whole process gets messed up. Not only that, then Allah (swt) had endowed the system with the ability to monitor mistakes and correct them in most of the cases. When the correction does not work, atheists say its not a perfect corrective system. I see it as willed by God.
Reply

barney
02-24-2010, 12:55 AM
Its not a perfect corrective system. Some cells copy each other to the detriment of the system.
Cancer.

If evolution is willed by god then its a extremely circuatious route he has chosen, building a multifaceted mechanic that only points to a lack of his own input!
Reply

CosmicPathos
02-24-2010, 01:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Its not a perfect corrective system. Some cells copy each other to the detriment of the system.
Cancer.

If evolution is willed by god then its a extremely circuatious route he has chosen, building a multifaceted mechanic that only points to a lack of his own input!
Cancers replicate due to the error in the replicative system. So its a defect a system, not a system itself.

Evolution on its own will go nowhere.
Reply

barney
02-24-2010, 01:38 AM
Yeah, diddnt say it was not a defect. I said it wasnt perfect.

Evolution on its own has carried it, backed by genetic, embrological, geological, fossil and anatomical evidence in such a bun dance as to not really brook any serious arguement,as it dosnt amongst 97% of scientists, from single cells to trillion cell creatures of staggering complexity.

Islam is quite adaptable to Evolution, more so than christianity with the heavy weight of Genologys and six days of creation.

I would encourage you to study it. its a facinating subject.
Reply

CosmicPathos
02-24-2010, 01:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Yeah, diddnt say it was not a defect. I said it wasnt perfect.

Evolution on its own has carried it, backed by genetic, embrological, geological, fossil and anatomical evidence in such a bun dance as to not really brook any serious arguement,as it dosnt amongst 97% of scientists, from single cells to trillion cell creatures of staggering complexity.

Islam is quite adaptable to Evolution, more so than christianity with the heavy weight of Genologys and six days of creation.

I would encourage you to study it. its a facinating subject.
I've studied it more than you probably.

The evidence only points out similarities. There is no evidence that all life is connected sequentially. That is just an imaginary connection created by the "97%" of the scientists to provide the best naturalistic explanation to what they perceive through their two senses (sight and hearing). Scientists are no gods. I've grown up in their company. I know that they are wrong. 97% of them can be and are wrong. I stand unconvinced by the irrational argument of descent through modification for which there is no evidence.
Reply

barney
02-24-2010, 03:58 AM
Well we probably studied different books.

I studied secular books written by biologists with no connection to preconcieved beleif in Creationism.
I also studied the creationist arguements attempting to debunk evolution with Dinosaurs on Arks and selective measuring of isotope dating. I even visited a Creationist musem.

The balance of evidence was creationism 0% Evolution 99%.
Appels, snakes and clots of blood along with burning bushes arks and "god did it" explainations offer nothing. Not a scrap of palpable evidence.

Evolution offers a seamless endlessly tested and biologically sound explaination.
I'd encourage you to read a proper non-religious scientists book to get an actual look at how it works. Dawkins "the Greatest Show on earth" is a good starter.
Reply

CosmicPathos
02-24-2010, 05:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Well we probably studied different books.

I studied secular books written by biologists with no connection to preconcieved beleif in Creationism.
I also studied the creationist arguements attempting to debunk evolution with Dinosaurs on Arks and selective measuring of isotope dating. I even visited a Creationist musem.

The balance of evidence was creationism 0% Evolution 99%.
Appels, snakes and clots of blood along with burning bushes arks and "god did it" explainations offer nothing. Not a scrap of palpable evidence.

Evolution offers a seamless endlessly tested and biologically sound explaination.
I'd encourage you to read a proper non-religious scientists book to get an actual look at how it works. Dawkins "the Greatest Show on earth" is a good starter.
The fact that you suggested me to read Dawkins highlights the kind of books you have studied. You talk about reading books without pre-conceived notions of creationism, Dawkins starts each of his book with the presumption of atheism. For a philosophical critique of Dawkins' The God Delusion, check this out http://hamzatzortzis.blogspot.com/20...o-richard.html

I've read peer-reviewed primary papers, review papers, and text books on this issue. All of them propose evolution as an "explanation" of the available evidence. In other words, evolution is a man-made concept which fits in with the observed evidence. I just take evidence as it is without putting any interpretations on it for the time being as I have not conducted each of these experiments myself. Perhaps that is the difference between me and you. I do not get indoctrinated by the theoretical ideas of evolutionists while you do.

And just because something is peer-reviewed, it does not confirm the reality. Its a logical fallacy to resort to such measures of proving something and known as argument from authority. That is, just because scientists say so, it is true.
Reply

barney
02-24-2010, 05:31 AM
Actually Dawkins is agnostic. He professes no beleif in Gods but a lack of knowlage that non exist with the caveat that all evidence points against their existance.

The fact that i pointed you to the until recent professor of public understanding of science highlights the kinds of books I've studied :)
Your claiming that mainstream science is wrong and the tiny fringe of pseudoscience is the correct position.

This isnt a point we are going to further without reams of post and counterpost dumping Worldwide mainstream science against vidieos of Kent Hovind and Harun Yahya's book of fishhook fossils.
Not much point in that so we will have to agree to disagree for now. Of course not without pointing out, i'm right your wrong! :p
Reply

CosmicPathos
02-24-2010, 05:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Actually Dawkins is agnostic. He professes no beleif in Gods but a lack of knowlage that non exist with the caveat that all evidence points against their existance.

The fact that i pointed you to the until recent professor of public understanding of science highlights the kinds of books I've studied :)
Your claiming that mainstream science is wrong and the tiny fringe of pseudoscience is the correct position.

This isnt a point we are going to further without reams of post and counterpost dumping Worldwide mainstream science against vidieos of Kent Hovind and Harun Yahya's book of fishhook fossils.
Not much point in that so we will have to agree to disagree for now. Of course not without pointing out, i'm right your wrong! :p
Straw man fallacy. I never claimed that I believe in Harun Yahya's pseudoscience? That is what atheists like you do. You are trying to prove that I am an idiot that I believe in Harun Yahya's works? I never said that yet you made an assumption about it? Way to go, not-so-smart atheist.

Proposing that evolution is the ONLY explanation of evidence is pseudoscience. Evidence =/= Evolution of Man from primitive life.

Dawkins is a self-proclaimed atheist. You can find his video on youtube in which he says that 'God most probably does not exist.' An agnostic, on the other hand, maintains that he does not know whether God exists or not.
Reply

barney
02-24-2010, 05:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
Straw man fallacy. I never claimed that I believe in Harun Yahya's pseudoscience? That is what atheists like you do. You are trying to prove that I am an idiot that I believe in Harun Yahya's works? I never said that yet you made an assumption about it? Way to go, not-so-smart atheist.

Proposing that evolution is the ONLY explanation of evidence is pseudoscience. Evidence =/= Evolution of Man from primitive life.

Dawkins is a self-proclaimed atheist. You can find his video on youtube in which he says that 'God most probably does not exist.' An agnostic, on the other hand, maintains that he does not know whether God exists or not.
All agnostics have a 50% beleif in god? Nahh. you are mistaken.Dawkins says he is 6/7ths Atheist in The God delusion. Or was it 5/6ths he said, i dunno, it's not like I memorise it!

As for Harun, this is the best creationists have got. if you have some other explaination of life apart from Allah, then I'm very happy to hear it!
Reply

CosmicPathos
02-24-2010, 06:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
All agnostics have a 50% beleif in god? Nahh. you are mistaken.Dawkins says he is 6/7ths Atheist in The God delusion. Or was it 5/6ths he said, i dunno, it's not like I memorise it!

As for Harun, this is the best creationists have got. if you have some other explaination of life apart from Allah, then I'm very happy to hear it!
Allah's involvement is the only explanation. Even if I, for the sake of argument, accept evolution as the mechanism of origin of man, it does not explain how elements came to being. How universe came into being? Why universe came into being? Its a loop of infinite explanations and if you are so adamant to stick to non-God invoking explanations then I am afraid that you are running in infinite circles of explanations. Evolutionist's explanation is half baked, they only explain how man evolved from lower organisms, they dont explain how the things necessary for life evolved such as elements. that duty is thrown on the geologists? Then whatever geologists cannot explain, that duty is given to astronomers. So on and so forth.

Btw my life involves more than sitting on IB and hence I am off.

Good luck reading Dawkins.
Reply

barney
02-24-2010, 06:31 AM
Sure, no probs.

Geometry theory will give us nothing into everything as a theory,and explains Big Bang, though its a bit quantum, i like it. Fills a lot of gaps and avoids the "who created god" pitfall.

The Clay pastes at earths cooling provide molecular structures for RNA polymers to turn into DNA. You probably already know this but just discount it.
As i say, one side has all this stuff.
The other side has talking snakes and flying donkeys.
Reply

جوري
02-24-2010, 04:33 PM
as one geneticist put it: How could the 2 sexes have evolved from an asexual, amorphic amoeba regardless of an even infinite time scale without a Creator. How could the process of meiosis have eveloved to produce male and female gametes when having the 2 sexes are worthless without that reductionary division? The male is reproductively worthless without the female and vice versa.

I love that clay pastes the earth turning RNA to DNA thing, you hold your breath for that..

btw taking a ten months theology course at a second rate institution doesn't make you a scholar in any field least of which science!

all the best
Reply

barney
02-24-2010, 05:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
as one geneticist put it: How could the 2 sexes have evolved from an asexual, amorphic amoeba regardless of an even infinite time scale without a Creator. How could the process of meiosis have eveloved to produce male and female gametes when having the 2 sexes are worthless without that reductionary division? The male is reproductively worthless without the female and vice versa.

I love that clay pastes the earth turning RNA to DNA thing, you hold your breath for that..

btw taking a ten months theology course at a second rate institution doesn't make you a scholar in any field least of which science!

all the best
You will find the answer in transitory species. Those that are both male and female. I know biology isnt your thing Skye,and you prefer talking snakes and donkeys that fly, so I wont tax you with it.

The Clay to RNA type polymers dosnt need "waiting" for, it's already lab replicated in the 1970's.
Sorry again.
Reply

جوري
02-24-2010, 05:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
You will find the answer in transitory species. Those that are both male and female. I know biology isnt your thing Skye,and you prefer talking snakes and donkeys that fly, so I wont tax you with it.
Care to elaborate rather than reference me to some vague terms? In fact my undergrad and masters are in molecular bio. So go ahead nurse man, teach me all about it!

The Clay to RNA type polymers dosnt need "waiting" for, it's already lab replicated in the 1970's.
Sorry again.
That is funny, a human manipulated experiment that yielded no outcome proved something?

you know as the saying goes.. if a fool persists in his folly he'll become a wise man.. so you keep at it, at some point you'll be really convincing to like minds!

all the best
Reply

CosmicPathos
02-24-2010, 06:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
You will find the answer in transitory species. Those that are both male and female. I know biology isnt your thing Skye,and you prefer talking snakes and donkeys that fly, so I wont tax you with it.

The Clay to RNA type polymers dosnt need "waiting" for, it's already lab replicated in the 1970's.
Sorry again.
LOL.

RNA already has been shown to have enzymatic (Ribozymes) and replicative ability. RNAs still require a protein for their replication (For example Group II Introns when they insert into a new target sequence).

Conclusive evidence has yet to be provided that RNA can replicated on its own without the use of proteins! How the heck is that possible, I cannot imagine right now as a single stranded RNA (with some partial self- base pairing in the form of hair-pin loops) would need an external source to get its information copied.

Mr not-so-smart-atheist, please explain to me how likely is it for RNA and proteins to evolve independently from their constituents (ribonucleotides and amino acids) in a fashion in which a protein can be utilized by that evolved RNA to replicate itself. ...
Reply

جوري
02-24-2010, 06:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
LOL.

RNA already has been shown to have enzymatic (Ribozymes) and replicative ability. RNAs still require a protein for their replication (For example Group II Introns when they insert into a new target sequence).

Conclusive evidence has yet to be provided that RNA can replicated on its own without the use of proteins! How the heck is that possible, I cannot imagine right now as a single stranded RNA (with some partial self- base pairing in the form of hair-pin loops) would need an external source to get its information copied.

Mr not-so-smart-atheist, please explain to me how likely is it for RNA and proteins to evolve independently from their constituents (ribonucleotides and amino acids) in a fashion in which a protein can be utilized by that evolved RNA to replicate itself. ...

:sl:

I'd take it down a few notches, a few months ago, the guy couldn't do basic math.. kept quoting me articles about sun yrs and moons yrs, because he didn't understand the concept that having more day in a week makes you have a longer year.. so I'd carry that thought through to fundamentals of genetics and molecular bio.

atheists are happy convincing themselves of their own brand of truth, because simply they are unlearned in the sciences but are learned in verbal diarrhea .. and as the saying goes, if you can't dazzle them with science baffle them with bull ****..
Reply

barney
02-24-2010, 11:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
:sl:

I'd take it down a few notches, a few months ago, the guy couldn't do basic math.. kept quoting me articles about sun yrs and moons yrs, because he didn't understand the concept that having more day in a week makes you have a longer year.. so I'd carry that thought through to fundamentals of genetics and molecular bio.

atheists are happy convincing themselves of their own brand of truth, because simply they are unlearned in the sciences but are learned in verbal diarrhea .. and as the saying goes, if you can't dazzle them with science baffle them with bull ****..


Cant remember anything about sun years and moon years. Dosnt make much sense so unless you want to drag it out for display, I'll call you on it.
Time within our scope of space is a constant, so thats simple baseless ad-hom.

I do recall however that you beleive that The USA sells Exploding tanks to Saudi in order to kill muslims. Oh and that Horses fly.;D

So if you want a battle of beleifs, you might have to carry on inserting false propaganda

We do not know how life started. We have excellent theorys. We have some tested and testable concepts, the Clay Paste RNA polymer being one. If the science falsified such concepts, I'd abandon them as credible.

You have a magical explaination founded on nothing at all but which you hold to with fevered conviction.Nothing would convince you to abandon the idea. Even a new prophet arriving displaying miracles!:p
Reply

جوري
02-24-2010, 11:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Cant remember anything about sun years and moon years. Dosnt make much sense so unless you want to drag it out for display, I'll call you on it.
Of course you can't.. I too would repress such a public humiliation of not being able to reason like a third grader at your age. We were discussing ahel al-kahf and the lunar calendar. I don't have the thread but as soon as I find it, I will post it for all to see, the more folks figure out exactly the level of intellect they are dealing with!
Time within our scope of space is a constant, so thats simple baseless ad-hom.
?
I do recall however that you beleive that The USA sells Exploding tanks to Saudi in order to kill muslims. Oh and that Horses fly.;D
It isn't far fetched to sell folks devices that can self-destruct. I have no idea what flying horses mean? care to share that thread?
So if you want a battle of beleifs, you might have to carry on inserting false propaganda
I don't battle with nurse who had a ten month course, as the saying goes:

Never argue with a fool, they will lower you to their level and then beat you with experience!
We do not know how life started. We have excellent theorys. We have some tested and testable concepts, the Clay Paste RNA polymer being one. If the science falsified such concepts, I'd abandon them as credible.
You couldn't discuss science in a lucid manner if you had someone whisper it in your ear as you mouth it out.

You have a magical explaination founded on nothing at all but which you hold to with fevered conviction.Nothing would convince you to abandon the idea. Even a new prophet arriving displaying miracles!:p
There is nothing 'magical' about God.
There is however something rather amusing about:

amongst others...

I think you do your clan a great disservice, and I think that tends to be the problem with most atheists. No social deportment or common sense.. but a caustic tongue that spews obscenities!

all the best!
Reply

barney
02-25-2010, 12:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Of course you can't.. I too would repress such a public humiliation of not being able to reason like a third grader at your age. We were discussing ahel al-kahf and the lunar calendar. I don't have the thread but as soon as I find it, I will post it for all to see, the more folks figure out exactly the level of intellect they are dealing with!

?

It isn't far fetched to sell folks devices that can self-destruct. I have no idea what flying horses mean? care to share that thread?


I don't battle with nurse who had a ten month course, as the saying goes:

Never argue with a fool, they will lower you to their level and then beat you with experience!

You couldn't discuss science in a lucid manner if you had someone whisper it in your ear as you mouth it out.


There is nothing 'magical' about God.
There is however something rather amusing about:

amongst others...

I think you do your clan a great disservice, and I think that tends to be the problem with most atheists. No social deportment or common sense.. but a caustic tongue that spews obscenities!

all the best!
Blimey!

Thats a cut and cookie response. Its what I would have actually typed for you! Which i will thus post below!
1) No I wont prove my ad Hom. But Barney really and truely does think that the moon bleeds custard, isnt he the silly one? Take no notice This is the chap who thinks that air is water, lol, cos it has Oxygen in it! Heh. (Add some basic facts to make it plausible like hydrogen contained in both mediums)
2) My delusions are plausible and indeed true! The flying Horses. i speak of the Burak! The horse with a womans head and its strides were mighty!
3)....and finish with a spew of baseless ad hom that will grace both our deleted item boxes!

Y'know Ambrosia, we really ought to just /ignore each other. I can argue for ever, and beat you every time, but ...my humanity really grates against such a drubbing.
Cya tommorow!
Reply

جوري
02-25-2010, 12:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Blimey!
We can only hope!

Thats a cut and cookie response. Its what I would have actually typed for you! Which i will thus post below!
You are capable of independent thought? I must applaud you!

1) No I wont prove my ad Hom. But Barney really and truely does think that the moon bleeds custard, isnt he the silly one? Take no notice This is the chap who thinks that air is water, lol, cos it has Oxygen in it! Heh. (Add some basic facts to make it plausible like hydrogen contained in both mediums)
I think this change in mental status needs to be displayed directly to your health-care provider. We are unable to treat gibberish over the web!

2) My delusions are plausible and indeed true! The flying Horses. i speak of the Burak! The horse with a womans head and its strides were mighty!
3)....and finish with a spew of baseless ad hom that will grace both our deleted item boxes!
Again, ease up on the ethanol, have someone drive you to the nearest ER and ask for a 'banana bag' specifically, they'll know what it is for.. and then come write when you are lucid!

Y'know Ambrosia, we really ought to just /ignore each other. I can argue for ever, and beat you every time, but ...my humanity really grates against such a drubbing.
Cya tommorow!
your humanity or your mamillary body is responsible for this level of confabulation? I am assuring you, if you get treated now, you might be able to salvage something of your mentation!

my thoughts are with you..

all the best
Reply

Uthman
02-25-2010, 12:17 AM
I should probably be moderating this but you two are just hilarious.

*sits comfortably and munches on popcorn*
Reply

CosmicPathos
02-25-2010, 02:54 AM
Panspermia! As recently as 30-40 years ago, your beloved "credible" astronomers were proposing that viruses had fell from space, traversing unimaginable distances during their intergalactic travels to finally permeate Earth exactly at the time when Earth was putting forth prokaryotes from its wombs ..... :D

Barney O Barney, all the theories explaining "origins of life" border delusions ....
Reply

barney
02-25-2010, 07:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Uthmān
I should probably be moderating this but you two are just hilarious.

*sits comfortably and munches on popcorn*
Cheers. Me and Skye have always loved to whack each other with the big inflatable hammers of Virtual Insults in in PIA's (Pointless Internet Arguement)
Reply

Uthman
02-25-2010, 07:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Cheers. Me and Skye have always loved to whack each other with the big inflatable hammers of Virtual Insults in in PIA's (Pointless Internet Arguement)
Indeed. I remember it well!
Reply

barney
02-25-2010, 07:50 AM
Hey Skye! I got a little paranoid that ,deep in alcohol induced spamming, I might have argued years ago, that the Moon span around and made day and night or something ridiculous. So i searched for "ahel al-kahf's" Lunar Calander in these esteemed boards and the only post found that I am talking about this matter is this one im writing right now!
Looks like the impossible has happened and you were wrong!
Reply

جوري
02-26-2010, 03:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Hey Skye! I got a little paranoid that ,deep in alcohol induced spamming, I might have argued years ago, that the Moon span around and made day and night or something ridiculous. So i searched for "ahel al-kahf's" Lunar Calander in these esteemed boards and the only post found that I am talking about this matter is this one im writing right now!
Looks like the impossible has happened and you were wrong!
you should always account for other variables and I know how difficult that is when your thought process is linear. Many board crashes has unfortunately rendered the search feature useless unless by way of google and many threads in a mystery vault in cyber space..

However, I have a photographic memory.. unlike you, I didn't get this far by having my senses dulled in a stupor!

as a general theme, you should always account for variables, confounders, biases .. estimating a parameter by a single value makes everything you come up with unreliable and at times down right laughable.. How about enrolling in a real college course now to foster self-esteem and the art of logic?

all the best
Reply

barney
02-26-2010, 09:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
you should always account for other variables and I know how difficult that is when your thought process is linear. Many board crashes has unfortunately rendered the search feature useless unless by way of google and many threads in a mystery vault in cyber space..

However, I have a photographic memory.. unlike you, I didn't get this far by having my senses dulled in a stupor!

as a general theme, you should always account for variables, confounders, biases .. estimating a parameter by a single value makes everything you come up with unreliable and at times down right laughable.. How about enrolling in a real college course now to foster self-esteem and the art of logic?

all the best
Thats a very wordy way of failing. :)
Reply

جوري
02-26-2010, 05:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Thats a very wordy way of failing. :)
It will get better.. there there!
Reply

maroon1
03-08-2010, 01:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
Allah's involvement is the only explanation. Even if I, for the sake of argument, accept evolution as the mechanism of origin of man, it does not explain how elements came to being. How universe came into being? Why universe came into being? Its a loop of infinite explanations and if you are so adamant to stick to non-God invoking explanations then I am afraid that you are running in infinite circles of explanations. Evolutionist's explanation is half baked, they only explain how man evolved from lower organisms, they dont explain how the things necessary for life evolved such as elements. that duty is thrown on the geologists? Then whatever geologists cannot explain, that duty is given to astronomers. So on and so forth.

Btw my life involves more than sitting on IB and hence I am off.

Good luck reading Dawkins.
1- Evolution is not supposed to explain the origin of Universe or origin of elements. Just like theory of gravity is not supposed to explain the origin of life or the diversity of life

2- You are asking Questions to yourself, and concluding that because we don't have answers to those questions to this date, then that means Allah is the only explanation. Don't you see the fallacy in your argument ?
It possible that universe originated from undiscovered physical process.
Reply

maroon1
03-08-2010, 01:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaak
A suggestion to evolutionists,atheists,and to even muslims who dont believe in creation
theres gona be an interview with harun yahya @ islamicboard radio,you can post your questions there,he can answer them better than any of us on the forums.and i can assure you it will be worth it.this is his speciality...you can post your questions here
http://www.islamicboard.com/islamicb...5-07-09-a.html
you can visit his website and read free online material here
www.harunyahya.com
I can't believe that people take Harun Yahya seriously.

Have you ever read his book Atlas of Creation ? The book is full of error. He exaggerate the age of fossils. For example, he claims that Tiger skull and Bear skull is 80 million years old, when the oldest remains known to scientists are far more recent

He also doesn't know how evolution works, he frequently claims that evolution happens by pure chance (when natural selection is by definition opposite to chance). He also thinks that transitional forms are incomplete animals;D

Furthermore, the Harun Yahya quote scientists out of context to support his views
Reply

جوري
03-08-2010, 05:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by maroon1
1- Evolution is not supposed to explain the origin of Universe or origin of elements. Just like theory of gravity is not supposed to explain the origin of life or the diversity of life

2- You are asking Questions to yourself, and concluding that because we don't have answers to those questions to this date, then that means Allah is the only explanation. Don't you see the fallacy in your argument ?
It possible that universe originated from undiscovered physical process.
Gravity and evolution are two separate theories in separate fields, the cognitive model and the biological model theories are also two separate theories although in the same field.. Try to focus your efforts so you don't lose your audience with your first statement!
some theories are more believable than others for they can be subjected to experimentation, when a theory can't be subjected to experimentation, then it borders upon philosophy..
Now, you are certainly free to subscribe to the module that you desire so long as you put in in proper context.. however, what I find unacceptable is pointing out 'fallacies' in other arguments and failing to see them in yours, and considering you can't put theories in proper context, one wonders how you can manage thereafter!


Let me pose this: Humans in their modern form didn't always exist, they came from somewhere, now you propose humans and apes had a common ancestor from which they evolved.. well by the same token if we are to accept that, and trust me anyone can be game with that as per Quran:


مَا أَشْهَدتُّهُمْ خَلْقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَلَا خَلْقَ أَنفُسِهِمْ وَمَا كُنتُ مُتَّخِذَ الْمُضِلِّينَ عَضُدًا {51}
[Pickthal 18:51] I made them not to witness the creation of the heavens and the earth, nor their own creation;

then you might want to propose from what that common ancestor evolved-- and before that and so on.. I mean the theory deals with evolving from something, logic would dictate that you go back to a common starting point?

We don't in fact know how God created us, but you claim 'science' does, then how about you go about proving it in an equally scientific fashion that doesn't loan itself to more fairy tales .. like 'undiscovered physical process'

How funny are you?

If you don't have an answer, a mode, or a process, a mechanism of action-- I kindly suggest you take the 'undiscovered physical process' and shelf it with other relics or your own personal beliefs and leave others to believe what they desire!

all the best
Reply

maroon1
03-08-2010, 06:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Let me pose this: Humans in their modern form didn't always exist, they came from somewhere, now you propose humans and apes had a common ancestor from which they evolved.. well by the same token if we are to accept that, and trust me anyone can be game with that as per Quran
Whether I accepted or reject the fact that humans and apes had a common ancestor, I didn't talk about this subject in my post that you quoted. So, you are responding to something that I didn't say. Thats one thing.

There are strong evidence that human and apes had a common ancestor

The evidence is the fusion of chromosome number two of humans (chromosome 2 have an additional inactive centromere and we see additional telomere sequences in the middle which is an evidence that fusion has occurred)

Also, the ERV is another piece of evidence
http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.c...g&f=9&t=79&m=1

I'm myself not an expert in evolution. There many articles and youtube videos that talk about this subject, so why not do some research by yourself

format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye

We don't in fact know how God created us, but you claim 'science' does, then how about you go about proving it in an equally scientific fashion that doesn't loan itself to more fairy tales .. like 'undiscovered physical process'
Please read my post and the post of the person I quoted carefully

The 'undiscovered physical process' was referring to the question about how the "The universe came into being?", not about how god created us (humans)

If you read "Malaak" post he claims that Allah's involvement is the only explanation because we don't know how the universe came into being. I was pointing out that their might be other possibilities.

I never claimed that science knows how the 'Universe came into being"


If you don't have an answer, a mode, or a process, a mechanism of action-- I kindly suggest you take the 'undiscovered physical process' and shelf it with other relics!

all the best

Is there a mode or process or mechanism of how Allah made the Universe ?

I never claimed that I have an ultimate answer on how the universe came into being, but "Malaak" claims that he has an ultimate answers and it is Allah. Do you see the difference ? I didn't say that it is a fact that universe came into being by 'undiscovered physical process' but what I said is that might be one of the possible explanation.
Reply

maroon1
03-08-2010, 06:54 PM
Can some tell me how could I edit a post ? I don't see any edit option !
Reply

جوري
03-08-2010, 07:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by maroon1
Whether I accepted or reject the fact that humans and apes had a common ancestor, I didn't talk about this subject in my post that you quoted. So, you are responding to something that I didn't say. Thats one thing.
You said:
format_quote Originally Posted by maroon1
1- Evolution is not supposed to explain the origin of Universe or origin of elements. Just like theory of gravity is not supposed to explain the origin of life or the diversity of life
and that is exactly what I commented on, for evolution to sustain itself, there has to be a starting point, so the origins of life will have to come into play in this particular theory, if you merely go back to its rudimentary component!


The evidence is the fusion of chromosome number two of humans (chromosome 2 have an additional inactive centromere and we see additional telomere sequences in the middle which is an evidence that fusion has occurred)
In theory anything is possible.. in practice, fusion has given us such things as:
Chronic myelogenous leukemia CML cells of the BCR-ABL fusion t(9;22)(q34;q11) reciprocal translocation
and

Intracystic papillary breast tumors, showed that fusion of chromosomes 16 and 1
and
Telomeric fusion and chromosome instability in multiple tissues of a patient with mosaic Ullrich-Turner syndrome

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...TRY=1&SRETRY=0


so the reality speaks differently, and I have only selected a handful because I don't have all day to labor over everything that goes wrong from a fusion/translocation/deletion/DNA breaks.

Also, the ERV is another piece of evidence
http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.c...g&f=9&t=79&m=1
That is just the thing you propose this as ''evidence'', but evidence denotes that it is demonstrable and what have retroviruses give us thus far?
The genus is divided into three sub families:
Oncovirinae - oncogenic - cause sarcomas and leukaemias in animals;
eg Rous Sarcoma Virus Lentivirinae - slow progressive degenerative disorders
eg visnavirus of sheep, human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) Spumavirinae - no pathology known http://web.uct.ac.za/depts/mmi/jmoodie/hiv2.html


I'm myself not an expert in evolution. There many articles and youtube videos that talk about this subject, so why not do some research by yourself
I can tell you are no expert, and indeed I have done my research!



Please read my post and the post of the person I quoted carefully

The 'undiscovered physical process' was referring to the question about how the "The universe came into being?", not about how god created us (humans)
I have quoted you directly and replied directly, you are yet to take us back to what got the ball rolling with evolution!

If you read "Malaak" post he claims that Allah's involvement is the only explanation because we don't know how the universe came into being. I was pointing out that their might be other possibilities.
I commented on only one post, as I have no desire to whittle myself on every reply you have given someone, although I can honestly point out several mistakes in your latter post especially as deals with 'Natural selection' but haven't the time nor the desire to turn this into another 30 page debate when both sides have presented their reservations explicitly!

I never claimed that science knows how the 'Universe came into being"
You claimed that:

because we don't have answers to those questions to this date, then that means Allah is the only explanation.
and

It possible that universe originated from undiscovered physical process.
and I am telling you, that if you don't like "god did it'' then provide us with something better in keeping with science or keep your personal fairy tales to yourself?


Is there a mode or process or mechanism of how Allah made the Universe ?
I have quoted directly from the Quran above, scroll back!

I never claimed that I have an ultimate answer on how the universe came into being, but "Malaak" claims that he has an ultimate answers and it is Allah. Do you see the difference ? I didn't say that it is a fact that universe came into being by 'undiscovered physical process' but what I said is that might be one of the possible explanation.
The difference is, that you don't like the response given, but you have nothing better to offer, and that is the bottom line of it..


all the best
Reply

maroon1
03-08-2010, 10:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
In theory anything is possible.. in practice, fusion has given us such things as:
Chronic myelogenous leukemia CML cells of the BCR-ABL fusion t(9;22)(q34;q11) reciprocal translocation
and

Intracystic papillary breast tumors, showed that fusion of chromosomes 16 and 1
and
Telomeric fusion and chromosome instability in multiple tissues of a patient with mosaic Ullrich-Turner syndrome

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...TRY=1&SRETRY=0


so the reality speaks differently, and I have only selected a handful because I don't have all day to labor over everything that goes wrong from a fusion/translocation/deletion/DNA breaks.
Please can you be more clearer ? What are you trying to prove here ? How is that against what I said (assuming that you know what I was talking about)


format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
That is just the thing you propose this as ''evidence'', but evidence denotes that it is demonstrable and what have retroviruses give us thus far?
The genus is divided into three sub families:
Oncovirinae - oncogenic - cause sarcomas and leukaemias in animals;
eg Rous Sarcoma Virus Lentivirinae - slow progressive degenerative disorders
eg visnavirus of sheep, human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) Spumavirinae - no pathology known http://web.uct.ac.za/depts/mmi/jmoodie/hiv2.html
what you are talking about ? Did you read the link that I posted

I'm not talking about types of retroviruses or what are their effects

The link that I posted shows that there are many instances of ERV insertions between apes and humans (and even other animals) in same exact location of the chromosomes. This is very strong and irrefutable evidence that human and apes have common ancestors, because the only way that humans and apes have thousands of ERVs in the exact same locations on the exact same chromosomes if they have inherited them form a common ancestor.


I can tell you are no expert, and indeed I have done my research!
Really ?

I have quoted you directly and replied directly, you are yet to take us back to what got the ball rolling with evolution!
I was talking about a subject, while you are talking about another

I commented on only one post, as I have no desire to whittle myself on every reply you have given someone, although I can honestly point out several mistakes in your latter post especially as deals with 'Natural selection' but haven't the time nor the desire to turn this into another 30 page debate when both sides have presented their reservations explicitly!
LOL. You mean that I made an error when I said that Natural selection is opposite of chance ?


and I am telling you, that if you don't like "god did it'' then provide us with something better in keeping with science or keep your personal fairy tales to yourself?

The "god did it" is not really better than what I said. Both lack evidence

You are also messing the real point that I was making when I was replying to "Malaak". The point that I was making that are many possible explanation for the origin of Universe. "Malaak" claimed and made a final conclusion that "God did it" because he didn't find answer to his questions. Lack of answer to his questions is not an evidence for "God did it". There are many other possible explanation for the origin of the universe and no one here is claiming that those other possible explanations are fact.

If you ask me why and how the "universe came into being" my answer is I don't know, and this is a honest answer because at the moment there is no scientific explanation for it

I have quoted directly from the Quran above, scroll back!

The verse you quoted doesn't explain process or mechanism of how Allah made the Universe




The difference is, that you don't like the response given, but you have nothing better to offer, and that is the bottom line of it..


all the best

Why would I like the response given ?How the "God did it" is a good explanation for anything ? To me this raises much more questions that answers (assuming that it even answer anything).
Reply

جوري
03-08-2010, 11:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by maroon1
Please can you be more clearer ? What are you trying to prove here ? How is that against what I said (assuming that you know what I was talking about)
which part was difficult for you to understand?
what you are talking about ? Did you read the link that I posted
Indeed, if you have arrived to a different conclusion perhaps you can weave it to us in a concise fashion instead of referencing us to websites.. or do you personally not understand what you have posted?
I'm not talking about types of retroviruses or what are their effects
OK

The link that I posted shows that there are many instances of ERV insertions between apes and humans (and even other animals) in same exact location of the chromosomes. This is very strong and irrefutable evidence that human and apes have common ancestors, because the only way that humans and apes have thousands of ERVs in the exact same locations on the exact same chromosomes if they have inherited them form a common ancestor.
What does an insertion at of a virus at a certain locale denote in your book, we are plagued by many of the same viruses, ticks, bacteria that plague animals, sometimes they affect us in a worst capacity sometimes not so much and vice versa.. so what is your point?


Really ?
Yeah, really-- how about you?


I was talking about a subject, while you are talking about another
Perhaps you are just a concrete thinker?


LOL. You mean that I made an error when I said that Natural selection is opposite of chance ?
No, it means that 'natural selection' doesn't always work as is described, and that is evidenced through trinucleotide repeat expansion, where the exact opposite of where the least adapted to the environment survive..




The "god did it" is not really better than what I said. Both lack evidence
Then why the bravado?

You are also messing the real point that I was making when I was replying to "Malaak". The point that I was making that are many possible explanation for the origin of Universe. "Malaak" claimed and made a final conclusion that "God did it" because he didn't find answer to his questions. Lack of answer to his questions is not an evidence for "God did it". There are many other possible explanation for the origin of the universe and no one here is claiming that those other possible explanations are fact.
And I have already stated that I specifically addressed the reply mad scientist, either way you can't disprove that God did it, and you can't offer what is better!
If you ask me why and how the "universe came into being" my answer is I don't know, and this is a honest answer because at the moment there is no scientific explanation for it
I am not asking you about the 'universe came into being' I am asking you for the starting point of evolution and a plausible mechanism of action that we can experiment with rather than philosophize about!




The verse you quoted doesn't explain process or mechanism of how Allah made the Universe
Indeed.. I have stated that we don't know how we or the universe were created. To say that evolution is responsible for our current state but not offer a plausible scientific evidence is to yield to a lesser belief.. so what makes me awe struck really, is your lack of reverence to the opinion of others to the point of frank mockery, when you yourself can't do any better!




Why would I like the response given ?How the "God did it" is a good explanation for anything ? To me this raises much more questions that answers (assuming that it even answer anything).
Why should we like ''undiscovered physical process'' as a good explanation-- to me that raises more questions than answers, assuming it answers anything!

all the best
Reply

CosmicPathos
03-13-2010, 03:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by maroon1
1- Evolution is not supposed to explain the origin of Universe or origin of elements. Just like theory of gravity is not supposed to explain the origin of life or the diversity of life

2- You are asking Questions to yourself, and concluding that because we don't have answers to those questions to this date, then that means Allah is the only explanation. Don't you see the fallacy in your argument ?
It possible that universe originated from undiscovered physical process.
Hey,
you are explaining what I said in your own words and taking the credit for it? "Evolution is not supposed to explain the origin of Universe or origin of elements." That is exactly what I said. Its an infinite chain of "theories."

"You are asking Questions to yourself, and concluding that because we don't have answers to those questions to this date, then that means Allah is the only explanation. Don't you see the fallacy in your argument ?
It possible that universe originated from undiscovered physical process."

Even if we had answers, I'd say God did it. It seems unlikely that you will have answers to these. In 5 billion years, the Sun is going to engulf the Earth. Way before 5 billion years come to passing, the Sun's luminosity will increase, oceans will boil away and you or your descendants will be melting away into the deepest cores of Earth. Alas, you will never find answers that you so desperately beseech. So far, interstellar or intergalactic travel seems nigh impossible so that dont assume that you or your descendants will inhabit other planets.
Reply

Italianguy
03-13-2010, 04:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
Hey,
you are explaining what I said in your own words and taking the credit for it? "Evolution is not supposed to explain the origin of Universe or origin of elements." That is exactly what I said. Its an infinite chain of "theories."

"You are asking Questions to yourself, and concluding that because we don't have answers to those questions to this date, then that means Allah is the only explanation. Don't you see the fallacy in your argument ?
It possible that universe originated from undiscovered physical process."

Even if we had answers, I'd say God did it. It seems unlikely that you will have answers to these. In 5 billion years, the Sun is going to engulf the Earth. Way before 5 billion years come to passing, the Sun's luminosity will increase, oceans will boil away and you or your descendants will be melting away into the deepest cores of Earth. Alas, you will never find answers that you so desperately beseech. So far, interstellar or intergalactic travel seems nigh impossible so that dont assume that you or your descendants will inhabit other planets.
He has probably seen "2012" wayyyy to many times. ;D You can tell them a thousand times that God did it, but thats to easy an explanation, humans want things to be hard on them for some reason? I like that God did it, created everything, ...pretty much sums it up simply. Don't waist your breath arguing with them bro, You could be using those breaths to pray to our creator:D.....and he shouldn't waist his breath either....next thing you know they will say there are to many people breathing and sucking up all the oxygen and suffacating the world;D and the world will choke on itself in 2013....oh wait the world is supossed tobe gone in 2012....oops
Reply

CosmicPathos
03-13-2010, 04:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by maroon1
Please can you be more clearer ? What are you trying to prove here ? How is that against what I said (assuming that you know what I was talking about)




what you are talking about ? Did you read the link that I posted

I'm not talking about types of retroviruses or what are their effects

The link that I posted shows that there are many instances of ERV insertions between apes and humans (and even other animals) in same exact location of the chromosomes. This is very strong and irrefutable evidence that human and apes have common ancestors, because the only way that humans and apes have thousands of ERVs in the exact same locations on the exact same chromosomes if they have inherited them form a common ancestor.




Really ?



I was talking about a subject, while you are talking about another



LOL. You mean that I made an error when I said that Natural selection is opposite of chance ?





The "god did it" is not really better than what I said. Both lack evidence

You are also messing the real point that I was making when I was replying to "Malaak". The point that I was making that are many possible explanation for the origin of Universe. "Malaak" claimed and made a final conclusion that "God did it" because he didn't find answer to his questions. Lack of answer to his questions is not an evidence for "God did it". There are many other possible explanation for the origin of the universe and no one here is claiming that those other possible explanations are fact.

If you ask me why and how the "universe came into being" my answer is I don't know, and this is a honest answer because at the moment there is no scientific explanation for it




The verse you quoted doesn't explain process or mechanism of how Allah made the Universe






Why would I like the response given ?How the "God did it" is a good explanation for anything ? To me this raises much more questions that answers (assuming that it even answer anything).
Even if I have a concrete scientific explanation of why universe emerged, it IS entirely rational for me to say that God did it the way it is. I have already grown up with that and been accustomed to that. As a child, I was told God created me. As I learnt more and more, I found that sperm and egg fused to create me. The egg emerged from the follicle, ejected from the fallopian tube, made its way to the uterus through ciliary lining, the sperm swam into the uterus only to penetrate the egg. But still nothing stops me from saying that God created me. What makes you think that a scientific explanation for the emergence of the universe will prohibit me from associating it to the creative power of God? Thats just the way the mind of a believer works, as Ali Sina The Accursed so aptly, surprisingly, put it.

Not only that, we might never know what occurred before Big Bang. IF you have a slightest bit of intellect, which you dont, you should know that within the first 3 minutes, if I recall my numbers correctly, photons were captured and not free. We cannot measure, observe or detect beyond this point. We can only estimate, direct proofs of what happened in the time ensuing Big Bang and the free nature of photons will never come. Its reality shrouded in mystery for eternity.
Reply

Dagless
03-13-2010, 12:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
Hey,
you are explaining what I said in your own words and taking the credit for it? "Evolution is not supposed to explain the origin of Universe or origin of elements." That is exactly what I said. Its an infinite chain of "theories."

"You are asking Questions to yourself, and concluding that because we don't have answers to those questions to this date, then that means Allah is the only explanation. Don't you see the fallacy in your argument ?
It possible that universe originated from undiscovered physical process."

Even if we had answers, I'd say God did it. It seems unlikely that you will have answers to these. In 5 billion years, the Sun is going to engulf the Earth. Way before 5 billion years come to passing, the Sun's luminosity will increase, oceans will boil away and you or your descendants will be melting away into the deepest cores of Earth. Alas, you will never find answers that you so desperately beseech. So far, interstellar or intergalactic travel seems nigh impossible so that dont assume that you or your descendants will inhabit other planets.
Look at what we've achieved in half a million years, and we've already managed to leave our planet. 5 billion years is too long to think about (if we haven't been wiped out by then).
Reply

CosmicPathos
03-13-2010, 05:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dagless
Look at what we've achieved in half a million years, and we've already managed to leave our planet. 5 billion years is too long to think about (if we haven't been wiped out by then).
5 billions is the upper limit.

I agree. We have achieved a lot. But what we have achieved dims in comparison to what we have to achieve. Traveling in a shuttle at 30,000 km/h is a remarkable feat but not an impossible one. While, traveling at 3 x 10 ^ 8 m/s for 4 years to reach the closest star is indeed impossible as of now. And probably will be. We use rocket propulsion for space travel. With rocket propulsion, it is NIGH impossible to reach those speeds and to maintain travel at those speeds for 4 years to reach the closest star. Then dont forget about the return.

Having optimistic estimates by thinking that destruction is 5 billion years away is indeed joyful, but dont ignore the snowball earth, cyclical ice ages of earth and other processes which occur at very small time scales (last ice age was 10000 years ago) which will destroy our technology and if some of us survive, we will have to start from the scratch.

According to conservative estimates, next influenza pandemic alone will wipe away 350-400 million people. Thinking about where we will be in next 100 years, let alone 5 billion years, borders fantasy, with no offense.
Reply

Mahmoudov
03-13-2010, 05:53 PM
Hello,

what about this :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5wLg8EzF1o ,it

summarizes all the evolution/id/creation debate .
Reply

Dagless
03-13-2010, 05:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
5 billions is the upper limit.

I agree. We have achieved a lot. But what we have achieved dims in comparison to what we have to achieve. Traveling in a shuttle at 30,000 km/h is a remarkable feat but not an impossible one. While, traveling at 3 x 10 ^ 8 m/s for 4 years to reach the closest star is indeed impossible as of now. And probably will be. We use rocket propulsion for space travel. With rocket propulsion, it is NIGH impossible to reach those speeds and to maintain travel at those speeds for 4 years to reach the closest star. Then dont forget about the return.
Yes, its nigh on impossible now, but we're not looking at now.

format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
Having optimistic estimates by thinking that destruction is 5 billion years away is indeed joyful, but dont ignore the snowball earth, cyclical ice ages of earth and other processes which occur at very small time scales (last ice age was 10000 years ago) which will destroy our technology and if some of us survive, we will have to start from the scratch.
I did state "if we haven't been wiped out by then" in my original post.

format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
According to conservative estimates, next influenza pandemic alone will wipe away 350-400 million people. Thinking about where we will be in next 100 years, let alone 5 billion years, borders fantasy, with no offense.

We know what we have already achieved, and we know that we are advancing. Therefore saying we will be able to leave our planet to go to another within 5 billion years hardly takes a huge leap of faith.
Reply

CosmicPathos
03-13-2010, 07:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dagless
Yes, its nigh on impossible now, but we're not looking at now.



I did state "if we haven't been wiped out by then" in my original post.




We know what we have already achieved, and we know that we are advancing. Therefore saying we will be able to leave our planet to go to another within 5 billion years hardly takes a huge leap of faith.
First assumption, if we survive 5 billion years, which is highly unlikely. The prospects of what you said are as encouraging as the prospects of finding intelligent life somewhere else in the universe, which in reality are almost zero. We have no evidence if life DOES exist elsewhere.

Secondly, humans' traveling at the speed of light is impossible because mass will become infinite. A shuttle traveling at those speeds, made of ordinary metals, will be reduced to ashes due to collisions with a nanometer big interstellar dust. Intergalactic travel is impossible. Now. Probably in future too. Why? We need to discover new laws of physics to be able to utilize them for such travel. What we currently know of physics is insufficient. On the other hand, traveling to Moon does not require the knowledge of new physical laws, it is merely common sense for people of today and for those of 5000 years ago, escape earth's pull and viola.

There are talks of using dark matter as a fuel resource but all of this is speculative. Here a good read for ya: http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/bpp/
Reply

Mahmoudov
03-13-2010, 07:43 PM
can some say some thing about what's told here ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5wLg8EzF1o
Reply

جوري
03-13-2010, 07:48 PM
You should direct that to the person who made the video.. right after he has shed sleep from his eyes and preferably after brushing his teeth and had some coffee in his system..

all I got was periodic table and the creationists saying blah..
I don't get how that proves or disproves needs or doesn't need God and I suspect in order for him to elucidate his point, his video would need to go beyond 1:05 seconds?..

He does himself a disservice to say science knows the answers but not dwell on details, yet mock 'creationists' for saying God did it and not dwell on details...

At the end of the day your beliefs are your own..

:w:
Reply

CosmicPathos
03-13-2010, 07:53 PM
I did not even bother watching that.
Reply

MMohammed
03-13-2010, 08:02 PM
Evolution is false although I do not have full knowledge of it.
If we converted from chimpanzees or baboons(or whatever), then why do we see other chimpanzees(or baboons) in this world in the present?
Why did they not convert into humans? Why couldn't they socially interact like us?
Reply

جوري
03-13-2010, 08:07 PM
It is always good to watch.. how else can we challenge opinions if we are not familiar with content?
Reply

CosmicPathos
03-13-2010, 08:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
It is always good to watch.. how else can we challenge opinions if we are not familiar with content?
The argument seems to be the same in this case, unless some novel ideas have been presented? Seems to be confirmed by your reply to him.
Reply

CosmicPathos
03-13-2010, 08:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MMohammed
Evolution is false although I do not have full knowledge of it.
If we converted from chimpanzees or baboons(or whatever), then why do we see other chimpanzees(or baboons) in this world in the present?
Why did they not convert into humans? Why couldn't they socially interact like us?
no. Baboons evolved at the same time or about the same time when we were evolving from our ancestors.
Reply

Dagless
03-13-2010, 08:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
First assumption, if we survive 5 billion years, which is highly unlikely. The prospects of what you said are as encouraging as the prospects of finding intelligent life somewhere else in the universe, which in reality are almost zero. We have no evidence if life DOES exist elsewhere.
No, you are comparing 2 things which are not the same. We have never found life anywhere but on earth. Life on other planets would be a new thing. Technology already exists and so space travel is an extension of technology and ideas which already exist.

format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
Secondly, humans' traveling at the speed of light is impossible because mass will become infinite. A shuttle traveling at those speeds, made of ordinary metals, will be reduced to ashes due to collisions with a nanometer big interstellar dust. Intergalactic travel is impossible. Now. Probably in future too. Why? We need to discover new laws of physics to be able to utilize them for such travel. What we currently know of physics is insufficient. On the other hand, traveling to Moon does not require the knowledge of new physical laws, it is merely common sense for people of today and for those of 5000 years ago, escape earth's pull and viola.

There are talks of using dark matter as a fuel resource but all of this is speculative. Here a good read for ya: http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/bpp/
Again you are comparing then and now. So what if today's metals would be reduced to ashes? I'm sure at one time people like yourself were saying "these wooden wheels will never go above 30mph".
Where was the speed of light mentioned? You are bringing these arguments into the conversation yourself and then answering them. Breaking the laws of physics is not a necessity to space travel. Space travel already exists to a lesser extent.

There are people alive today who were born before the first manned flight. Within their life times we've already been to the moon. If you really think travel to planets outside our solar system will ever happen then fair enough. For me though it would be surprising if it did not happen, given the time frames we are speaking of (obviously taking into account extinction or set backs).

format_quote Originally Posted by Mahmoudov
can some say some thing about what's told here ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5wLg8EzF1o
He is saying that we do not need God to explain how we got here. An example of elements is given, ie. that we did not need God to explain the diversity of elements, and that in time we managed to understand. In this same way we will understand our origins.
It was an ok analogy.
Reply

Mahmoudov
03-13-2010, 10:23 PM
Hey,
He is saying that we do not need God to explain how we got here. An example of elements is given, ie. that we did not need God to explain the diversity of elements, and that in time we managed to understand. In this same way we will understand our origins.
It was an ok analogy.
Amasing ,it is so rare ,and very pleasent ,to see a beliver who handles the intelectual honesty that good ,you got it .

If we converted from chimpanzees or baboons(or whatever), then why do we see other chimpanzees(or baboons) in this world in the present?
This is the most common asked question by IDrs ,and the most commonly anwsered ,we did not evolve from chimps ,but we have a common ancestor specie ,like all species it divided into many groups who had different environments ,that made them taken different ways of natural selection .

I did not even bother watching that.
Not suprising from a person who has a sophism as a signature :p
Reply

Mahmoudov
03-13-2010, 10:32 PM
He does himself a disservice to say science knows the answers but not dwell on details
The details are there : the nuclear fusion ,explaining the intelectual rooting (the
successive theories)

witch led to the "Nuclar fusion" would be a physics course ,any one can find this in the internet .
what you are saying is there is no evidence of nuclar fusion ?oh my friend it's a very havy statement .
Reply

جوري
03-13-2010, 11:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Mahmoudov
The details are there : the nuclear fusion ,explaining the intelectual rooting (the
successive theories)

witch led to the "Nuclar fusion" would be a physics course ,any one can find this in the internet .
what you are saying is there is no evidence of nuclar fusion ?oh my friend it's a very havy statement .

this witch?




lead to 'nuclear fusion' and that means there is no God?
I don't understand what you are writing!
Nuclear fusion is a reaction where nuclei combine and in the process release massive energy.. would you like to tie this in for us with the topic and the ready made conclusions?

It seems you are having a soliloquy by yourself on the side where you not only have all the answers, but have made assumptions for others that I assume you wish to engage?.. I am neither your friend nor have I said that there is no evidence of nuclear fusion.

This is how you write a physics paper on evolution:

http://arxiv.org/ftp/q-bio/papers/0603/0603005.pdf

THE MODERN THEORY OF EVOLUTION FROM THE VIEWPOINT OF
STATISTICAL PHYSICS
ALEXEY V. MELKIKH
Ural State Technical University
19 Mira St., 620002 Yekaterinburg, Russia
mav@dpt.ustu.ru
The problem of the rate and mechanisms of biological evolution was considered. It
was shown that species could not be formed due to undirected mutations in
characteristic times of about one million years. A mechanism of deterministic
molecular evolution assuming a directed change of the genome was proposed.
Key words: undirected mutations; deterministic evolution; probability of new
species origin
Introduction
Views on biological evolution have changed considerably in recent decades
since much success has been achieved in the study of the structure and functions of
the genome (adaptive mutations, mobile genetic elements, epigenetics, the
horizontal transport of genes, etc.). Many scientists speak about the change of the
evolution paradigm and new genetics (see, for example, [1-3]), while other hold, as
before, to neo-Darwinian views [4-12]. Does all this new knowledge about genes
lead to a new theory of evolution or represent just an improvement of the
Darwinian theory of evolution?
Modern theories do not provide evidence that some other, rather than
Darwinian (undirected changes of the genome, selection and the genetic drift),
mechanism of evolution operates. Models of the evolution process are needed so as
to make estimates and show what mechanism is in play exactly.
Such estimates are absent in both the neo-Darwinian theory [10] and models
of the horizontal transport of genes [13-15], epigenetic processes [16-17], adaptive
mutations [18-20], etc. Although there is a great number of studies dealing with
simulation of evolution of species, neither author calculated the probability that
new species can appear by way of undirected changes of the genome. For example,
numerical calculations were made in Eigen's model of quasi-species for short
nucleotide chains only. The applicability of the model to real genomes (which are
about 109 long) has been postulated as something obvious. However, this is just the
main problem: the number of possible combinations of nucleotides rises with the
growth of their number in the genome, while the number of organisms, on the
contrary, generally decreases (on transition from protozoa to higher organisms).
From the physical viewpoint, Darwinian evolution represents an analogue of
the Brownian motion in the space of attributes of organisms. In this sense, it is
important to estimate characteristic times of evolution. Can new species appear by
diffusion in the space of attributes?
1. Evaluation of the Probability of New Species Formation in Terms of
the Synthetic Theory of Evolution
According to the modern theory of evolution, the main mechanisms by
which new species appear are mutations and the horizontal gene transport. It is
assumed that mutations in a genome can be not only casual, but frequently
represent rearrangements of blocks already available in the genome. At the same
time, the basic proposition of the modern theory of evolution is its nondirectivity.
That is, whatever mutations may be, they are not directed a priori to creation of
"good" combinations of nucleotides. The same reasoning applies to processes of
the horizontal transport of genes: while being largely non-casual, they are not
oriented to creation of "good" genes.
Otherwise, aprioristic information about the structure of the genome of
future species would be needed for directed changes in the genome. According to
STE, such aprioristic information is unavailable.
To estimate characteristic times necessary for appearance of new species, we
shall consider a genome having the following properties (in accordance with main
provisions of the modern theory of evolution):
1. A genome represents an ordered set X with elements (nucleotides) X1, …,
XN (N being the total number of nucleotides in the genome). Each element can take
one of four values (A, T, G, C). The following operations Pi are applicable to the
elements: replacement of individual elements, replacement of blocks of elements,
and any rearrangements of blocks and elements. All these processes have different
probabilities.
2. The operations cause appearance of a new organism whose survival
probability is determined by the genome structure and properties of the
environment. An ecological niche (occupied by one species) represents a region of
the phase space where a small number of organisms increases in quantity (the
reproduction rate is positive). Let us label the set of genomes of organisms in the
niche as L0. At the initial moment of time each niche is surrounded by k empty
nearest niches (the corresponding sets are labeled L1…Lk). Neighboring ecological
niches are separated by a region where the reproduction rate is negative.
3. The nearest neighboring species have N1 different nucleotides (the
Hemming characteristic distance between nearest neighboring sets is Li). We shall
refer to nucleotides, which belong at least to one of the sets L1 … Lk, as "good"
ones. The characteristic distance between organisms of one species is labeled N2
(the intraspecific distinction) (Fig. 1).
4. Whatever the operations Pi may be, they are not oriented a priori to
creation of new species adapted to the environment. Organisms do not know the
location of nearest ecological niches, while positions of "good" nucleotides in the
genome are unknown a priori.
N2
N1
L1
L2
Lk
L0
These properties coincide in many respects with properties of the quasispecies
model [10], but the probability of species formation was not evaluated in
terms of the last model for real sizes of genomes. In this sense, the property 4,
which forms the basis of STE, has the principal significance.
Let the probabilities that two arbitrarily chosen nucleotides Xk and Xl are
"good" (belong to one of neighboring sets L1 … Lk) be equal to pk and pl
respectively. Does the probability that they are "good" simultaneously depend on
the numbers of these nucleotides (their positions in the genome)? If such
dependence exists, it will mean the availability of the aprioristic knowledge which
nucleotides are "good" and which are not. This is in conflict with the property 4
and changes of the genome prove to be directed. Then the numbering order of
Fig. 1. Ecological niches (colored grey)
nucleotides is not important for calculation of the probability that they are good.
Obviously, the notion of "a block" becomes senseless for calculations of this
probability: since boundaries of blocks of a neighboring species are unknown a
priori, it is not important whether any nucleotides change under the action of
operations in a mutually correlated pattern or not.
Since nearest species differ by N1 nucleotides, it is necessary to determine
the probability that they will be exactly N1 (considering the distinction between
organisms within one species). Furthermore, these nucleotides should be correctly
distributed in the genome. Notice that if random walks occur in the space of
attributes and the position of neighboring niches is not known beforehand (the
darwinian mechanism of evolution), the position of mutated nucleotides in the
genome and their structure are unknown either. If such aprioristic knowledge is
unavailable, the probability of N1 nucleotides hitting "right" places is
( )
3 1
1
!
! ! 1 1
1 N N
W N N N −
= . (1)
The formula (1) is deduced as follows. The probability that the first mutated
nucleotide is "right" (i.e. not only hits the place of mutation, but also is the one
needed) equals
N
N
3
1
.
The probability for the second mutated nucleotide is
3( 1)
1 1


N
N
.
And for the last
( )1 3
1
N − N .
The general probability is the product of these probabilities and, hence, we
have the formula (1).
If an error, which is possible at this stage (the intraspecific distinction), is
taken into account, we have:
( )
3 1 2
1
!
! ! 1 1
N N N
N N N


. (2)
Let us estimate this value using Stirling's formula for large numbers:
( ) ( ) ( )
ln ( )ln 3
ln ln
3
1
!
ln ln ! !
1 2
1 1 1 1
1 1
1 1 2
N N N N
N N N N N N
N
W N N N N N
− − −
= − − + −

= − .
For example, at N = 3×109, N1 = 0.01N and N2 = 0.001N (for example, see
[21-24]) we have
8
1 lnW = −0.066N ≈ −2 ×10 .
Then for W1 we obtain
( 8 )
1 W ≈ exp − 2×10 .
Thus, the probability that mutated nucleotides prove to be exactly the ones
needed for formation of a new species is vanishingly small: new species of
organisms could not appear due to undirected mutations.
Let us estimate separately the probability that the number of mutated
nucleotides will fall within the interval
2 2
2
1
2
1
N N N N N X − < < + .
Let the number of mutated nucleotides NX have the Gaussian distribution.
Since this number is large, this distribution may be viewed as continuous:
( ) ( )
 


 

 −
= − 2
2
2
1
2 2
exp
2
1
m
X m
m
X N
N N
N
f N
π .
Here N2m represents the characteristic width of the distribution. The
probability that the number of nucleotides falls within the specified interval is
( )

+

 


 

 −
= −
/ 2
/ 2
2
2
2
1
2
2
1 2
1 2 2
exp
2
1 N N
N N
X
m
X m
m
dN
N
N N
N
W
π .
What parameters of this distribution should be for W to be a maximum? It is
easy to show that the maximum W2 (equal to unity) will be realized when
1 1 N N m =
and N2m tends to zero. In this case, the distribution of nucleotides represents a δ-
function. Of course, this assumption is unrealistic and in the nature any such
distribution (even if nucleotides are not independent) has a final dispersion.
Therefore, if the real distribution of nucleotides is taken into account, the
probability of hitting the specified interval decreases still more. Let us make the
upper estimate, i.e. assume that exactly
2 2
2
1
2
1
N N N N N X − < < +
nucleotides change as a result of mutation.
How many attempts are required so that at least one organism reaches any of
the neighboring ecological niches? Since positions of elements belonging to the
sets L1 … Lk are unknown, the distance between the sets remains (on the average)
the same (according to the property 4, all the operations are not directed) after the
first attempt, i.e. can decrease or increase with an equal probability. Therefore, the
total number of attempts can be counted taking the number of organisms of a given
species ever living on the Earth. They may be both descendants of one organism
(transition in a great number of small steps) and descendants of other organisms
(parallel transition).
Therefore, we shall multiply the probability that at least one organism gets
into a neighboring niche by the number of organisms of the given species ever
living on the Earth. Thus, all possible attempts (whatever their factor of
multiplication between niches be, the real number of organisms is limited by
natural resources) are taken into account. If some organisms do not survive the
action of selection, the number will be still smaller.
Even the very probability of the first hit represents a combinatorially small
number. It is obvious therefore that real dimensions of populations of any
organisms cannot considerably increase this probability.
Finally, the obtained probability is multiplied by the number of nearest
ecological niches adjacent to the given niche. This operation gives (considering the
assumptions made) the upper estimate of the probability that at least one organism
reaches at least one neighboring ecological niche:
( )
3 1 2
1
!
! ! 1 1
N N N
k N N N
T
W m t −

= . (3)
Here T is the lifetime of an organism, t is the characteristic time of formation of a
new species, m is the number of a population of organisms, and k is the number of
ecological niches adjacent to the given niche. Let us also take into account the
known relations N1 = 0.01N and N2 = 0.001N. The W1 estimate (2) suggests that
the number W is negligibly small too ( W ≈ 10−57000000 ).
The estimates disregarded processes of the further conversion of information
in the genome (the genome regulation, alternative splicing, etc.). It can be shown
however that the probability of formation of new species is of the same order of
magnitude if one compares sequences of amino acids in proteins.
Thus, species could not appear due to undirected mutations. Therefore, a
considerable part of mutations and operations of the horizontal transport of genes
are directed to creation of organisms a priori adapted to new ecological conditions.
In this case, the very mechanism of evolution changes drastically: it turns from
casual to deterministic.
2. Genome as a Neurocomputer
There is a variety of papers, in which a genome is treated as a network of
interconnected genes analogous to a neuron network (see, for example, [25-28]). If
an analogy is drawn between a genome (or several genomes) and a neuron
network, it should be noted that a fundamental property of a neuron network,
without which it cannot work, is the presence of two modes: recording and pattern
recognition. The work of a neuroprocessor starts from presentation of a pattern.
The pattern presentation (input of a primary set of attributes) is realized as follows.
At the initial moment of time signals that activate some elements are transmitted
via external links. A presented pattern is maintained for some time, during which
the links "learn" (in other words, conductivity of current-carrying links decreases).
After the learning procedure, the processor can recognize objects by relating them
to some class of objects it learned.
Thus, a neuron network (or similar structures) will not work without a
priori standards (an initial set of attributes or reference patterns)! In this case, it has
nothing to compare with a received signal and the decision as to the "good" or
"bad" signal is impossible. If some special assumptions on properties of a
"genome" neuron network are not made, this network cannot process signals from
the environment and adequately react to them.
In this case, environmental effects will have the character of a random
process (in the aforementioned sense) and cannot accelerate evolution. That is, the
model proposed in [2] is a particular case of neo-Darwinism.
If it is assumed that a program of genes control appeared casually, we
again encounter a contradiction since the probability of formation of this program
proves to be vanishingly small. If, thanks to random processes, a genome forms a
sequence encoding proteins, which are responsible for shuffling of genes or their
parts, there are no reasons to assert that new genes will be "good". The probability
of this process should be estimated using the formula (3) for random processes,
which gives vanishingly small probabilities of such events.
3. Main Ideas of the Deterministic Theory
Of course, the construction of the deterministic theory requires a special
discussion, but even now it is possible to formulate basic ideas of this theory (see
also [29, 30]).
1. Random processes, which cause changes of the genome, may take place
concurrently with deterministic processes representing the purpose-oriented work
of molecular machines. Such a controlled change of the genome essentially
approaches the morphogenesis. Consequently, new species of organisms will not
appear casually, but will result from a deterministic process.
2. Information cannot appear from nothing (such a process would contradict
the second law of thermodynamics). Therefore, aprioristic information about new
species should be encoded in some structures. Conformational degrees of freedom
of proteins presumably may serve as the storage of this aprioristic information.
These degrees of freedom represent an additional information resource since only
the sequence of protein amino acids, but not the spatial structure of the protein is
encoded in genes.
3. Laws of functioning of molecular machines are general for different cell
processes. From the viewpoint of statistical thermodynamics of irreversible
processes, the work of these machines consists in an efficient conversion of one
form of energy to its another form – the cross effect (see also [31]). Operations on
genes, which can be a result of the work of molecular machines, may be reduced to
several elementary operations, such as identification of a DNA fragment (a
protein), cutting of a macromolecule, cross-linking, etc.
Conclusion
Thus, this study showed that undirected evolution of organisms takes a too
long time for appearance of new species (including the case where genes form a
complex network). A mechanism of deterministic evolution was proposed. The
essence of this mechanism is that possible species of organisms are predetermined
by properties of proteins and nucleotides. The structure and chemical properties of
nucleotides, amino acids and other substances essential for life are such that
changes in a genome, which lead to appearance of new species, become
controllable. The formation of new species represents a deterministic process
approaching the morphogenesis.
References
1. J.A. Shapiro “A 21st Century View of Evolution,” J. Biol. Phys. 28 1-20
(2002).
2. E. Ben-Jacob “Bacterial wisdom, Godel’s theorem and creative genomic
webs,” Physica A 248 57-76 (1998).
3. Golubovsky M.D. Mutational process and macroevolution. Genetica. 1980.
V 52/53. P.139-149.
4. D. Eriksson and H.J. Jensen, Darwinian selection in a locally unstable
Boolean Network. J Stat. Mech.: Theor. Exp. P09001 (2004).
5. K.M. Page, M.A. Nowak, “Unifying evolutionary dynamics,” J. Theor. Biol.
219, 93-98 (2002).
6. M. Kolar, and F. Slanina, “How the quasispecies evolution depends on the
topology of the genome space,” Physica A 313, 549-568 (2002).
7. R. Garcia-Pelayo, “A linear algebra model for quasispecies,” Physica A 309,
131-156 (2002).
8. A. Orr, “A minimum on the mean number of steps taken in adaptive walks,”
J. Theor. Biol. 220, 241-247 (2003).
9. A. Pross, “The driving force for life’s emergence: kinetic and
thermodynamic consideration,” J. Theor. Biol. 220, 393-406 (2003).
10. M. Eigen and M. Schuster, “The Hypercycle - A Principle of Natural Self-
Organization,” Springer-Verlag, Berlin (1979).
11. Garske T., Grimm U., Maximum principle and mutation threshold for fourletter
sequence evolution. JSTAT. (2004). P07007.
12. Jain K., Krug J., Evolutionary trajectories in rugged fitness landscape.
JSTAT. (2005). P04008.
13. A.S. Novozhilov, G.P. Karev and E.V. Koonin “Mathematical modeling of
evolution of horizontally transferred genes,” Mol Biol Evol. Aug;
22(8):1721-32 (2005).
14. C.G. Kurland, B. Canback and O.G. Berg “Horizontal gene transfer. A
critical view,” Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 100: 9658-9662 (2003).
15. E. Pennisi, “Genome data shake tree of life,” Science 280: Issue 5364. 672-
674 (1998).
16. R.N. Tchuraev. A new method for the analysis of the dynamics of the
molecular genetic control systems: 1.Description of the method of
generalized threshold models. J. Theor. Biol., 1991. V.151.
17. Aurell E. Sneppen K. Epigenetics as a first exit problem, Physical Review
Letters 88, 048101, (2002).
18. Rosenberg, S.M. (2001.) Evolving responsively: adaptive mutations. Nature
2, 505-515.
19. Foster, P.L. (1993.) Adaptive mutation: The uses of adversity. Annu. Rev.
Microbiol. 47, 467-504.
20. Shapiro, J. A. (1984.) Observations of the formation of clones containing
araB-lacZ fusions. Mol. Gen. Genet. 194, 79-90.
21. J.A. Coyne and H.A. Orr “Patterns of speciation in drosophila,” Evolution
43 (2) 362-381 (1989).
22. J.A. Coyne and H.A. Orr “The evolutionary genetics of speciation,” Phil.
Trans. R. Soc. Lond. B 353 287-305 (1989).
23. C.D. Jiggins and N. Davies “Genetic evidence for a sibling species of
Heliconius charithonia (Lepidoptera; Nymphalidae),” Biological Journal of
the Linnean Society 64 57-67 (1993).
24. L.L. Cavalli-Sforza “Genes, Peoples and Languages,” New York: North
Point Press (2000).
25. T. Honma and K. Goto “Complexes of MADS-box proteins are sufficient to
convert leaves into floral organs,” Nature. 409 N6819. 525-529 (2001).
26. N.A. Kolchanov, N.A. Nedosekina, E.A. Ananko et al. “GeneNet database:
description and modeling of gene networks,” In Silico Biol. V.2 N.2. 97-110
(2002).
27. G. Theissen and H. Saedler “Floral quartets,” Nature. 409 N6819 469-471
(2001).
28. E. Abouheif E and G.A. Wray “Evolution of the gene network underlying
wing polyphenism in ants,” Science. 297 N 5579 249-252 (2002).
29. Melkikh A.V. Deterministic mechanism of molecular evolution. Proceedings
of the International Moscow Conference on Computational Molecular
Biology. 227-228. 2005.
30. Melkikh A.V. Could life evolve by random mutations? (Biofizika). 2005.
31. A.V. Melkikh and V.D. Seleznev “Models of active transport of ions in
biomembranes of various types of cells,” Journal of theoretical biology. V.
324, Issue 3. 403-412 (2005).


all the best
Reply

CosmicPathos
03-14-2010, 01:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Mahmoudov
Hey,
Amasing ,it is so rare ,and very pleasent ,to see a beliver who handles the intelectual honesty that good ,you got it .

This is the most common asked question by IDrs ,and the most commonly anwsered ,we did not evolve from chimps ,but we have a common ancestor specie ,like all species it divided into many groups who had different environments ,that made them taken different ways of natural selection .


Not suprising from a person who has a sophism as a signature :p
Hey,

what do you mean by "sophism?" How is my signature logically fallacious? Mind explaining it to me, I might not understand your explanations with your primitive English writing skills. Seems you are either from Turkey or Iran, based on the spellings of your name. What is up, ya kaafir?


I also have 2 first author publications (in press) in prestigious journals in addition to my itching signature, should I shove them down your semi-intelligent brain?
Reply

CosmicPathos
03-14-2010, 01:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dagless
No, you are comparing 2 things which are not the same. We have never found life anywhere but on earth. Life on other planets would be a new thing. Technology already exists and so space travel is an extension of technology and ideas which already exist.



Again you are comparing then and now. So what if today's metals would be reduced to ashes? I'm sure at one time people like yourself were saying "these wooden wheels will never go above 30mph".
Where was the speed of light mentioned? You are bringing these arguments into the conversation yourself and then answering them. Breaking the laws of physics is not a necessity to space travel. Space travel already exists to a lesser extent.

There are people alive today who were born before the first manned flight. Within their life times we've already been to the moon. If you really think travel to planets outside our solar system will ever happen then fair enough. For me though it would be surprising if it did not happen, given the time frames we are speaking of (obviously taking into account extinction or set backs).



He is saying that we do not need God to explain how we got here. An example of elements is given, ie. that we did not need God to explain the diversity of elements, and that in time we managed to understand. In this same way we will understand our origins.
It was an ok analogy.
Either you are not reading properly or you lack the capacity to understand what I have said, twice.

Intergalactic or interstellar travel is not possible with the existing laws of physics that we are aware of. At least not within feasible periods of time.

From the scholarly site I gave you:

"Since existing technology is inadequate for traversing astronomical distances between neighboring stars (even if advanced to the limit of its underlying physics), the only way to circumvent these limits is to discover new propulsion physics. The discovery of new force-production and energy-exchange principles would lead to a whole new class of technologies. This is the motivation of breakthrough propulsion physics research.

Objectively, the desired breakthroughs might turn out to be impossible, but progress is not made by conceding defeat."
Reply

Mahmoudov
03-15-2010, 05:50 AM
Hello,

lead to 'nuclear fusion' and that means there is no God?
I don't understand what you are writing!

Nuclear fusion is a reaction where nuclei combine and in the process release massive energy.. would you like to tie this in for us with the topic and the ready made conclusions?
It means :

The mystery of the atoms diversity was solved without any need of an intelligent designer ,the laws of physics were enough ,it stoped to be a mystery when the fusion science was finaly mastered ,the fusion do not only relase energy ,it creates new atoms ,it's called : Stellar nuclosynthesis ,i guess you already knew that .
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/top...ucleosynthesis

The diversity of life ,explaining it with god is just filling gaps with myth ,i assume that the atoms one was explained by myth among belivers until the Stellar cucleosynthesis theory .


what do you mean by "sophism?" How is my signature logically fallacious?
Praying for the limitation of your free will is such a big deal yes .

ya kaafir
Now days kaafir is more likely a compliment ,but if you said it like and insult ,that means that you are insulting some one you dont even know ,neither did something wrong to you .
Nothing surprising from a totalitarian conceited durka .
Reply

CosmicPathos
03-15-2010, 06:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Mahmoudov
Hello,



It means :

The mystery of the atoms diversity was solved without any need of an intelligent designer ,the laws of physics were enough ,it stoped to be a mystery when the fusion science was finaly mastered ,the fusion do not only relase energy ,it creates new atoms ,it's called : Stellar nuclosynthesis ,i guess you already knew that .
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/top...ucleosynthesis

The diversity of life ,explaining it with god is just filling gaps with myth ,i assume that the atoms one was explained by myth among belivers until the Stellar cucleosynthesis theory .



Praying for the limitation of your free will is such a big deal yes .


Now days kaafir is more likely a compliment ,but if you said it like and insult ,that means that you are insulting some one you dont even know ,neither did something wrong to you .
Nothing surprising from a totalitarian conceited durka .
If you are aware of the meaning of the word kaafir, you would know that a sane man/woman will find it condescending, insulting and derogatory. I only suspect the sanity of those who take the word as a compliment. They need to be in the psychiatric wards!

Praying for the limitation my free-will? I can have a free-will to put a bullet in your head too but I of course would not carry out such an action. In the same way I have a free-will to commit kufr but I am asking God to prevent me from reaching that stage.

Hey kaafir, what else do you know about stellar nucleosynthesis? You've asked for it, I am well-versed in it. How does the knowledge of existence of nuclear fusion explains the existence of this process in the first place? Stellar nucleosynthesis only explains how elements are created. Dimwit, stellar nucleosynthesis provides a strong argument for Big Bang, the creation of universe.

no scientific theory explains why phenomenon exist. Why is explained by God. At least for me. No one is filling the gaps here. The only myth is that scientific explanation necessitates lack of existence of God.

khotay, ullo ke pathay.
Reply

جوري
03-15-2010, 12:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Mahmoudov
Hello,



It means :

The mystery of the atoms diversity was solved without any need of an intelligent designer ,the laws of physics were enough ,it stoped to be a mystery when the fusion science was finaly mastered ,the fusion do not only relase energy ,it creates new atoms ,it's called : Stellar nuclosynthesis ,i guess you already knew that .
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/top...ucleosynthesis
.
Knowing how things work seemingly on their 'own volition' hardly constitutes lack of need for an intelligent designer for who orchestrated and set the entire process and set it in motion from its primitive beginnings all the way to complex biochemical and physiological pathways working harmoniously together in a complex system and further developing sentience x species x a complicated universe.

btw if that were you in the video, I found you boring and slightly condescending though an undeserved kind of condescension.. perhaps it is dazzling to the average joe, who knows? it would also explain the lack of attention to details and the satisfaction from overly simplistic conclusions....


Good luck with all of that!
Reply

Mahmoudov
03-15-2010, 01:37 PM
Hello,

no scientific theory explains why phenomenon exist.
I have never talked about the origin of universe ,no one has an answer to this ,but i dont give my self the liberty to fill this gap with a myth ,if you do ,then who created god ?

condescending, insulting and derogatory.
Kafir :unbeliever ?good for me ,it means that i belong to the minority of people who do not use imaginary friend to explain the world ,nor have to fear him to be a good person ... but a salafist Hater could never understand this .

Knowing how things work seemingly on their 'own volition' hardly constitutes lack of need for an intelligent designer
i would not say "Need for an intelligent designer" ,but a "creates a strong temptation to talk about intelligent designer ,istead of accepting it's own lack of mental capacity/knowledge to solve such a puzzle" .
We can not even talk about "creation" ,of something which would probably have a non intuitive answer .

The only myth is that scientific explanation necessitates lack of existence of God.

Scientific explanation
necessitates only facts ,it's free for who lacks of creativity and is mad about it ,to create fairy tales ,but i dont think that it will give any equation (it's the koufars job,they're good at it no?:D)

btw if that were you in the video, I found you boring and slightly condescending though an undeserved kind of condescension.. perhaps it is dazzling to the average joe, who knows? it would also explain the lack of attention to details and the satisfaction from overly simplistic conclusions....
For you ,"the details" means talking about the "why question ?i let that to the esoterists .
The point of the video was simple :There was times where people tought that the laws of physics where not enought to explain a case a diversity mystery ,and they were wrong .
Now how the laws of physics took place ?it's faaar beyond my abilitys ,and the yours of course ,but dont panic .

perhaps it is dazzling to the average joe, who knows?
Dont try to convince your self that youre not :statisfie ,a little bit of humility pls .

Good day .
Reply

جوري
03-15-2010, 01:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Mahmoudov

i would not say "Need for an intelligent designer" ,but a "creates a strong temptation to talk about intelligent designer ,istead of accepting it's own lack of mental capacity/knowledge to solve such a puzzle" .
I have no idea what this means!
We can not even talk about "creation" ,of something which would probably have a non intuitive answer .
Or this
Scientific explanation [/B]necessitates only facts ,it's free for who lacks of creativity and is mad about it ,to create fairy tales ,but i dont think that it will give any equation (it's the koufars job,they're good at it no?:D)
Not really, I can't decipher your English to get down to the science of it!


For you ,"the details" means talking about the "why question ?i let that to the esoterists .
?

The point of the video was simple :There was times where people tought that the laws of physics where not enought to explain a case a diversity mystery ,and they were wrong .
Now how the laws of physics took place ?it's faaar beyond my abilitys ,and the yours of course ,but dont panic .
The laws of physics explain physics not meta physics!

Dont try to convince your self that youre not :statisfie ,a little bit of humility pls .
Not what?

Good day .
All the best!
Reply

MMohammed
03-15-2010, 05:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
no. Baboons evolved at the same time or about the same time when we were evolving from our ancestors.
Then say it chimpanzee alone?
Reply

CosmicPathos
03-15-2010, 05:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Mahmoudov
Hello,


I have never talked about the origin of universe ,no one has an answer to this ,but i dont give my self the liberty to fill this gap with a myth ,if you do ,then who created god ?


Kafir :unbeliever ?good for me ,it means that i belong to the minority of people who do not use imaginary friend to explain the world ,nor have to fear him to be a good person ... but a salafist Hater could never understand this .


i would not say "Need for an intelligent designer" ,but a "creates a strong temptation to talk about intelligent designer ,istead of accepting it's own lack of mental capacity/knowledge to solve such a puzzle" .
We can not even talk about "creation" ,of something which would probably have a non intuitive answer .


Scientific explanation [/B]necessitates only facts ,it's free for who lacks of creativity and is mad about it ,to create fairy tales ,but i dont think that it will give any equation (it's the koufars job,they're good at it no?:D)



For you ,"the details" means talking about the "why question ?i let that to the esoterists .
The point of the video was simple :There was times where people tought that the laws of physics where not enought to explain a case a diversity mystery ,and they were wrong .
Now how the laws of physics took place ?it's faaar beyond my abilitys ,and the yours of course ,but dont panic .


Dont try to convince your self that youre not :statisfie ,a little bit of humility pls .

Good day .
Disbeliever is a contextual meaning of the word kaafir. kaafir literally means a pathetic liar, like yourself, who hides the reality, in this case the reality of the existence of God who has surrounded you from all sides and angles through what you call "scientific principles" and are in utter arrogance for rejecting His majestic control over your filthy and abysmal existence. You are the one who needs to develop humility. I am a Salafist hater? You are being too generous. You can call me a Qutbi Abu Takfir.
Reply

Uthman
03-15-2010, 11:07 PM
This is no longer a civilised discussion. In fact, it's no longer even a discussion really.

:threadclo
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 37
    Last Post: 02-06-2020, 07:07 PM
  2. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-06-2013, 10:27 PM
  3. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 11-26-2010, 10:01 PM
  4. Replies: 50
    Last Post: 04-27-2009, 01:45 AM
  5. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-29-2008, 03:47 PM
British Wholesales - Certified Wholesale Linen & Towels

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!