PDA

View Full Version : Back From Iraq



Cabdullahi
04-06-2008, 06:00 PM
"We forget what war is about, what it does to those who wage it and those who suffer from it. Those who hate war the most, I have often found, are veterans who know it." -- Chris Hedges
For nearly 12 years, Staff Sergeant Jimmy Massey was a hard-core, some say "gung-ho," Marine. For three years he trained fellow Marines in one of the most grueling indoctrination rituals in military life -- Marine boot camp.

The Iraqi war changed Massey. The brutality, the sheer carnage of the U.S. invasion, touched his conscience and transformed him forever. He was honorably discharged last December 31 and is now back in his hometown, Waynsville, North Carolina. When I talked with Sergeant Massey last week, he expressed his remorse at the civilian loss of life in incidents in which he himself was involved.

Introduction

Paul Rockwell: You spent 12 years in the Marines. When were you sent to Iraq?

Sgt. Massey: I went to Kuwait around January 17th. I was in Iraq from the get-go. And I was involved in the initial invasion.

Paul Rockwell: What does the public need to know about your experiences as a Marine?

Sgt. Massey: The cause of the Iraqi revolt against the American occupation. What they need to know is we killed a lot of innocent people. I think at first the Iraqis had the understanding that casualties are a part of war. But over the course of time, the occupation hurt the Iraqis. And I didn't see any humanitarian support.

Paul Rockwell: What experiences turned you against the war and made you leave the Marines?

Sgt. Massey: I was in charge of a platoon that consists of machine gunners and missile men. Our job was to go into certain areas of the towns and secure the roadways.

There was this one particular incident -- and there's many more -- the one that really pushed me over the edge. It involved a car with Iraqi civilians. From all the intelligence reports we were getting, the cars were loaded down with suicide bombs or material. That's the rhetoric we received from intelligence. They came upon our checkpoint. We fired some warning shots. They didn't slow down. So we lit them up.

Paul Rockwell: Lit up? You mean you fired machine guns?

Sgt. Massey: Right. Every car that we lit up we were expecting ammunition to go off. But we never heard any. Well this particular vehicle we didn't destroy completely, and one gentleman looked up at me and said: 'Why did you kill my brother? We didn't do anything wrong.' That hit me like a ton of bricks.

Paul Rockwell: He spoke English?

Sgt. Massey: Oh, yeah.

Paul Rockwell: Baghdad was being bombed. The civilians were trying to get out, right?

Sgt. Massey: Yes. They received pamphlets, propaganda we dropped on them. It said 'Just throw up your hands, lay down weapons.' That's what they were doing, but we were still lighting them up. They weren't in uniform. We never found any weapons.

Paul Rockwell: You got to see the bodies and casualties?

Sgt. Massey: Yea, first hand. I helped throw them in a ditch.

Paul Rockwell: Over what period did all this take place?

Sgt. Massey: During the invasion of Baghdad.

Paul Rockwell: How many times were you involved in check-point "light-ups"?

Sgt. Massey: Five times.

"We Lit Him Up Pretty Good"

There was Rekha. The gentleman was driving a stolen work utility van. He didn't stop. With us being trigger happy, we didn't really give this guy much of a chance. We lit him up pretty good. Then we inspected the back of the van. We found nothing. No explosives.

Paul Rockwell: The reports said the cars were loaded with explosives. In all the incidents did you find that to be the case?

Sgt. Massey: Never. Not once. There were no secondary explosions. As a matter of fact, we lit up a rally.

Paul Rockwell: A demonstration? Where?

Sgt. Massey: On the outskirts of Baghdad. Near a military compound. There were demonstrators at the end of the street. They were young and they had no weapons. And when we rolled onto the scene, there was already a tank that was parked on the side of the road. If the Iraqis wanted to do something, they could have blown up the tank. But they didn't. They were only holding a demonstration. Down at the end of the road, we saw some RPGs (rocket--propelled grenades) lined up against the wall. That put us at ease because we thought: 'Wow, if they were going to blow us up, they would have done it.'

Paul Rockwell: Were the protest signs in English or Arabic?

Sgt. Massey: Both.

Paul Rockwell: Who gave the order to wipe the demonstrators out?

Sgt. Massey: Higher Command. We were told to be on the lookout for civilians because a lot of the Fedayeen and the Republican Guards had tossed away uniforms and put on civilian clothes and were mounting terrorist attacks on American soldiers. The intelligence reports that were given to us were basically known by every member of the chain of command. The rank structure that was implemented in Iraq by the chain of command was evident to every Marine in Iraq. The order to shoot the demonstrators, I believe, came from senior government officials including intelligence communities within the military and the U.S. government?

Paul Rockwell: What kind of firepower was employed?

Sgt. Massey: M-16s, 50-cal.machine guns.

Paul Rockwell: You fired into six or ten kids? Were they all taken out?

Sgt. Massey: Oh, yeah. Well, I had a 'mercy' on one guy. When we rolled up, he was hiding behind a concrete pillar. I saw him and raised my weapon up, and he put up his hands. He ran off. I told everybody 'Don't shoot.' Half of his foot was trailing behind him. So he was running with half of his foot cut off.

Paul Rockwell: After you lit up the demonstration, how long before the next incident?

Sgt. Massey: Probably about one or two hours. This is another thing, too. I am so glad I am talking with you, because I suppressed all of this.

Paul Rockwell: Well I appreciate you giving me the information, as hard as it must be to recall the painful details.

Sgt. Massey: That's all right. It's kind of therapy for me. Because it's something that I had repressed for a long time.

Paul Rockwell: And the incident?

Sgt. Massey: There was an incident with one of the cars. We shot an individual with his hands up. He got out of the car. He was badly shot. We lit him up. I don't know who started shooting first. One of the Marines came running over to where we were and said: 'You all just shot a guy with his hands up.' Man, I forgot about this.

Depleted Uranium and Cluster Bombs

Paul Rockwell: You mention missiles and machine guns. What can you tell me about cluster bombs, or depleted uranium?

Sgt. Massey: Depleted uranium. I know what it does. It's basically like leaving plutonium rods around. I'm 32 years old. I have eighty-percent of my lung capacity. I ache all the time. I don't feel like a healthy 32-year old.

Paul Rockwell: Were you in the vicinity of of depleted uranium?

Sgt. Massey: Oh, yeah. It's everywhere. DU is everywhere on the battlefield. If you hit a tank, there's dust.

Paul Rockwell: Did you breath any dust?

Sgt. Massey: Yeah.

Paul Rockwell: And if DU is affecting you or our troops, it's impacting Iraqi civilians.

Sgt. Massey: Oh, yeah. They got a big wasteland problem.

Paul Rockwell: Do Marines have any precautions about dealing with DU?

Sgt. Massey: Not that I know of. Well, if a tank gets hit, crews are detained for a little while to make sure there are no signs or symptoms. American tanks have depleted uranium on the sides, and the projectiles have DU in them. If an enemy vehicle gets hit, the area gets contaminated. Dead rounds are in the ground. The civilian populace is just now starting to learn about it. Hell, I didn't even know about DU until two years ago. You know how I found out about it? I read an article in Rolling Stones magazine. I just started inquiring about it, and I said 'Holy ****!'

Paul Rockwell: Cluster bombs are also controversial. U.N. commissions have called for a ban. Were you acquainted with cluster bombs?

Sgt. Massey: I had one of my Marines in my battalion who lost his leg from a cluster bomb.

Paul Rockwell: What happened?

Sgt. Massey: He stepped on it. We didn't get to training about clusters until about a month before I left.

Paul Rockwell: What kind of training?

Sgt. Massey: They told us what they looked like, and not to step on them.

Paul Rockwell: Were you in any areas where they were dropped?

Sgt. Massey: Oh yeah. They were everywhere.

Paul Rockwell: Dropped from the air?

Sgt. Massey: From the air as well as artillery.

Paul Rockwell: Are they dropped far away from cities, or inside the cities?

Sgt. Massey: They are used everywhere. Now if you talked to a Marine artillery officer, he would give you the runaround, the politically correct answer. But for an average grunt, they're everywhere.

Paul Rockwell: Including inside the towns and cities?

Sgt. Massey: Yes, if you were going into a city, you knew there were going to be cluster bombs.

Paul Rockwell: Cluster bombs are anti-personnel weapons. They are not precise. They don't injure buildings, or hurt tanks. Only people and living things. There are a lot of undetonated duds and they go off after the battles are over.

Sgt. Massey: Once the round leaves the tube, the cluster bomb has a mind of its own. There's always human error. I'm going to tell you. The armed forces are in a tight spot over there. It's starting to leak out about the civilian casualties that are taking place. The Iraqis know. I keep hearing reports from my Marine buddies inside that there were 200-something civilians killed in Fallujah. The military is scrambling right now to keep the raps on that. My understanding is Fallujah is just littered with civilian bodies.

Embedded Reporters

Paul Rockwell: How are the embedded reporters responding?

Sgt. Massey: I had embedded reporters in my unit, not my platoon. One we had was a South African reporter. He was scared ****less. We had an incident where one of them wanted to go home.

Paul Rockwell: Why?

Sgt. Massey: It was when we started going into Baghdad. When he started seeing the civilian casualties, he started wigging out a little bit. It didn't start until we got on the outskirts of Baghdad and started taking civilian casualties.

"I Killed Innocent People For Our Government"

Paul Rockwell: I would like to go back to the first incident, when the survivor asked why did you kill his brother. Was that the incident that pushed you over the edge, as you put it?

Sgt. Massey: Oh, yeah. Later on I found out that was a typical day. I talked with my commanding officer after the incident. He came up to me and says: 'Are you o.k?' I said: 'No, today is not a good day. We killed a bunch of civilians.' He goes: 'No, today was a good day.' And when he said that, I said 'oh, my goodness, what the hell am I into?'

Paul Rockwell: Your feelings changed during the invasion. What was your state of mind before the invasion?

Sgt. Massey: I was like every other troop. My president told me they got weapons of mass destruction, that Saddam threatened the free world, that he had all this might and could reach us anywhere. I just bought into the whole thing.

Paul Rockwell: What changed you?

Sgt. Massey: The civilian casualties taking place. That was what made the difference. That was when I changed.

Paul Rockwell: Did the revelations that the government fabricated the evidence for war affect the troops?

Sgt. Massey: Yes. I killed innocent people for our government. For what? What did I do? Where is the good coming out of it? I feel like I've had a hand in some sort of evil lie at the hands of our government. I just feel embarrassed, ashamed about it.

Showdown with the Brass

Paul Rockwell: I understand that all the incidents -- killing civilians at checkpoints, itchy fingers at the rally -- weigh on you. What happened with your commanding officers? How did you deal with them?

Sgt. Massey: There was an incident. It was right after the fall of Baghdad, when we went back down South. On the outskirts of Karbala, we had a morning meeting on the battle plan. I was not in a good mindset. All these things were going through my head -- about what we were doing over there. About some of the things my troops were asking. I was holding it all inside. My lieutenant and I got into a conversation. The conversation was striking me wrong. And I lashed out. I looked at him and told him: 'You know, I honestly feel that what we're doing is wrong over here. We're committing genocide. ' He asked me something and I said that with the killing of civilians and the depleted uranium we're leaving over here, we're not going to have to worry about terrorists. He didn't like that. He got up and stormed off. And I knew right then and there that my career was over. I was talking to my commanding officer.

Paul Rockwell: What happened then?

Sgt. Massey: After I talked to the top commander, I was kind of scurried away. I was basically put on house arrest. I didn't talk to other troops, I didn't want to hurt them. I didn't want to jeopardize them.

I want to help people. I felt strongly about it. I had to say something. When I was sent back to stateside, I went in front of the regimental Sergeant Major. He's in charge of 3500-plus Marines. 'Sir,' I told him, 'I don't want your money. I don't want your benefits. What you did was wrong.' It was just a personal conviction with me. I've had an impeccable career. I chose to get out. And you know who I blame? I blame the President of the U.S. It's not the grunt. I blame the president because he said they had weapons of mass destruction. It was a lie.

http://www.inmotionmagazine.com/opin/pr_sjm.html
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
truemuslim
05-15-2008, 04:59 PM
Wow thats heaavy!
I guess he is good for leaving... poor kids (specially da one wita leg off)
May allah help the palestenians, iraqi's and all the muslims at war...

and jazakallah khair for this

WaSalaam

P.s. lol i just saw the date on this...i gess its one of dem threads that r posted and approved without a mod posting to let ya kno.
Reply

MTAFFI
05-15-2008, 05:48 PM
i dont want to discredit this guy entirely but I searched for him on the internet and a lot of things show up with regard to him being a liar and changing his story for the occasion. This article in the michigan times sums it up a bit, but i would suggest that anyone reading this article look at this mans background before making a judgement. Sounds to me like a guy who is trying to position himself to make money off of exaggerated and/or false claims

http://www.michnews.com/cgi-bin/artm.../10253/printer
Reply

truemuslim
05-15-2008, 05:50 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
i dont want to discredit this guy entirely but I searched for him on the internet and a lot of things show up with regard to him being a liar and changing his story for the occasion. This article in the michigan times sums it up a bit, but i would suggest that anyone reading this article look at this mans background before making a judgement. Sounds to me like a guy who is trying to position himself to make money off of exaggerated and/or false claims

http://www.michnews.com/cgi-bin/artm.../10253/printer

Wow

Allahu Alim then (and has been)
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
MTAFFI
05-15-2008, 05:53 PM
Jimmy Massey: A Slanderer And His MSM Enablers (Former Marine and his lying liars)
Michelle Malkin ^ | Monday November 7th, 2005 | Michelle Malkin

Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 1:40:31 AM by ajolympian2004

JIMMY MASSEY: A SLANDERER AND HIS MSM ENABLERS

By

Michelle Malkin

· November 07, 2005 11:27 AM

massey.jpg
The anti-war left's favorite smear artist

As I noted over the weekend, Ron Harris's debunking of former Marine Staff Sgt. Jimmy Massey in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch is must-read. To its credit, CNN (once led by a very similar-minded slanderer), had an interview with Ron Harris this morning. Here's the transcript:

Former Marine Staff Sergeant Jimmy Massey has published a book in France called, "Kill Kill Kill." It accuses U.S. soldiers of atrocities in Iraq, including the killing of civilian men, women, and children.

Our next guest says Massey is lying and he can prove it. Joining us now is "St. Louis Post" dispatch writer Ron Harris. He was embedded with Jimmy Massey's unit in Iraq. Welcome, Ron.

RON HARRIS, "ST. LOUIS POST": Thank you. COSTELLO: You know, if this guy is lying, that's just vile. Because he's saying some vile things about our men and women over in Iraq.

HARRIS: Yes, that's very true. I mean, he is claiming that marines intentionally killed civilians, that he intentionally killed civilians. And at times, he claims that they intentionally killed civilians based on orders from the superiors. And the fact is, it just isn't true.

[CAROL] COSTELLO: OK, let's get to specifics now. He claimed, as you said, that Marines fired on and killed peaceful Iraqi protesters and were sometimes ordered by higher-ups to do that. How can you disprove that?

HARRIS: Well, two or three things. Number one, I was there in Iraq when -- I was in Baghdad when we initially pulled in. I was with Massey's unit. I was embedded with the unit, as were three other -- four other journalists, actually. And we went to that prison and I was there the next morning.

And not only did I not see any protesters, nobody saw any protesters. And not for weeks. Because during that time, it was a very, very dangerous period. It was basically four kinds of Iraqis. There were Iraqis who were happy to see the marines. There were Iraqis who were shooting at the marines and me, too, and the other journalists. There were Iraqis who were looting and that was probably what we saw most of. And there were finally Iraqis staying at home because they were afraid.

COSTELLO: Yes, but Ron, if there was completely untrue, I mean, this guy has made it into pretty big publications like "Vanity Fair." He's written a book that's bee published in France.

HARRIS: Oh, it's been published everywhere. Nobody -- in not one publication or not one broadcast, is there any corroboration. It's just Jimmy Massey's story. Nobody ever called a journalists who were covering him. Nobody ever interviewed the marines, which I did all of. Nobody ever checked his story. They don't even have another source that says on background or another source who didn't want to be quoted. It's just Jimmy Massey's story.

COSTELLO: Well, let's face it -- let's say these stories were true. Would the marines -- wouldn't be forthcoming about that. Oh, yes, we killed innocent Iraqi people. They're not going to admit that.

HARRIS: No, no, no. That's not true. In fact, the marines, we were there embedded with the marines. And the marines did shoot innocent civilians. And we covered that. In fact, covered that -- the photographer with me, Andrew Cartero (ph) shot pictures of innocent civilians who had been accidentally shot by the Marine Corps. We wrote stories and Andy took photographs of a British television crew that was shot and killed by the Marine Corps on the second day of the war. COSTELLO: Well, Ron, let's go to some of those photos. We have one photo that this photographer took, and it shows two women who are bloody. You say this further disproves Jimmy Massey's story. In what way?

HARRIS: In that case, Jimmy Massey claimed that a 4-year-old girl was shot in the head. That was the particular shooting incident. In fact, there were civilian shot in that car by Marines. Nobody died.

Andrew Cartero, again, the photographer for "The Post Dispatch," took those photographs. And as you can see in those pictures, there are people there. Nobody died. I talked to the medic who treated them. And I traveled with him for more than a month, Petty Officer Justin Poviance (ph). He told me nobody died in that incident.

COSTELLO: Well, let's go to one other picture, and this is really gruesome. So I' going to warn people to turn away if you want to see it. But this a tractor trailer. Jimmy Massey says it was filled with women, children and men. What do you say?

HARRIS: We were there. Those are photographs by Andrew Katraro. I saw it. Michael Phillips from "Wall Street Journal" saw it. Robbie Nesbit (ph) from Associated Press saw it. Those were men on a military base who had been killed by U.S. artillery, but there were no women or children in those tractor trailers. Those tractor trailer were used as sort of a makeshift morgue. They were refrigerated trucks, and they had been killed by American bombing. Initially the military thought that they had been killed by Saddam Hussein. They thought maybe it was a war crime.

COSTELLO: OK, I have to ask you this before I have to let you go.

HARRIS: OK.

COSTELLO: Why would this staff sergeant, Jimmy Massey, lie about these things, and say such terrible things about his own comrades?

HARRIS: Well, one of the things that has happened -- number one, Jimmy Massey, I don't know why, but I can just speculate a couple of things. Number one, Jimmy Massey was honorably discharged for post- traumatic stress syndrome. The second thing, Jimmy Massey has profited off of this. He does have a book. He has a Web site in which he sells his story on a CD for a hundred dollars. I think it's called jimmymassey.com. So it's been profitable for Jimmy Massey to keep telling this lie.

COSTELLO: Ron Harris from the "St. Louis Post Dispatch," thank you for joining us this morning.
Reply

truemuslim
05-15-2008, 06:18 PM
^
AHA! I knew there was somefin fishy bout the fact of an american soldier having mercy specially on children!
lol
Jazakallah khair bro
Reply

Air Jordan
05-15-2008, 06:48 PM
Originally Posted by truemuslim
^
AHA! I knew there was somefin fishy bout the fact of an american soldier having mercy specially on children!
lol
Jazakallah khair bro
hahaha...yeah...good one sis! somefin fishy fur sur specially cuz u claim to live here



did I spel "claim" rit?
Reply

MTAFFI
05-15-2008, 06:52 PM
Originally Posted by truemuslim
^
AHA! I knew there was somefin fishy bout the fact of an american soldier having mercy specially on children!
lol
Jazakallah khair bro
lol
Reply

truemuslim
05-15-2008, 07:10 PM
Originally Posted by Air Jordan
hahaha...yeah...good one sis! somefin fishy fur sur specially cuz u claim to live here



did I spel "claim" rit?
live where?
jordon?

lol yeh u spelled it right, but no one cares bout spellin.......ok looosers care bout spellin.
Reply

KAding
05-15-2008, 08:17 PM
Originally Posted by truemuslim
^
AHA! I knew there was somefin fishy bout the fact of an american soldier having mercy specially on children!
lol
Jazakallah khair bro
Indeed. We all know that American soldiers just like to rape and kill Muslims, especially children. It is what they are trained to do.
Reply

barney
05-15-2008, 08:30 PM
After the first suicide attacks on the US columns, the US had a policy of shout-warningshots-shoot.

Basically, the suicide bombing tactic forced Americans to open fire on civilian vehicals.
They and we went in expecting some dirty tricks.
But what depths the fedyeen sank to were ...havnt got words for it.
Hanging women, bayonetting kids, machinegunning them as they ran, dragging them behind them whilst shooting at us. It was effective in a way. No coalition soldier was going to shoot through a human sheild.
They could be as bad as they liked and it was OK. Because we were Kuffar.
Reply

truemuslim
05-15-2008, 10:06 PM
Originally Posted by KAding
Indeed. We all know that American soldiers just like to rape and kill Muslims, especially children. It is what they are trained to do.
Yep lol :D
coz there "training" is for wut they call there "self defence" :rollseyes
Reply

Air Jordan
05-15-2008, 11:44 PM
Originally Posted by KAding
Indeed. We all know that American soldiers just like to rape and kill Muslims, especially children. It is what they are trained to do.

Originally Posted by truemuslim
Yep lol :D
coz there "training" is for wut they call there "self defence" :rollseyes
True;

Has it occurred to you that there may be another meaning to a poster's comments other than the literal one?
Reply

truemuslim
05-16-2008, 12:44 AM
Originally Posted by Air Jordan
True;

Has it occurred to you that there may be another meaning to a poster's comments other than the literal one?
i hav no idea wut de heck u sayin man. :-[


EDIT: OMG man u so ... wait.... ok omg r u kiddin me? ok juss so u kno i kno he was bein sarcastic...BUT wut he said was so tru so i might as well say dat. god u so.....wait......
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
05-16-2008, 01:09 AM
Eh? So I suppose I'm a loser? Hmm...
Reply

MTAFFI
05-16-2008, 12:58 PM
Originally Posted by Jazzy
Eh? So I suppose I'm a loser? Hmm...
well... technically "Eh" isnt really a word, so I would say no :)
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
05-16-2008, 03:55 PM
^^What? ha i meant that like im saying "huh?" or like if u were to say eh. i know i make stuff up :p

-----------

Anyways, how do we know he might be right...ppl could jus be hatin on em...
unless i missed something.
Reply

truemuslim
05-16-2008, 04:00 PM
^ u missed the fact it is an AMERICAN soldier, meaning killing is what he signed up for, btw isnt it like hard to leave the marines??? they forcin people to go now so how could htye let him quit that easily if they despirate??
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
05-16-2008, 04:07 PM
^^Lol, what. I didnt miss that he's an American. That's not what I meant when I said i missed something. Doesnt clarify what i was talking bout, has nothin to do wit it >.<
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
05-16-2008, 04:44 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
i dont want to discredit this guy entirely but I searched for him on the internet and a lot of things show up with regard to him being a liar and changing his story for the occasion. This article in the michigan times sums it up a bit, but i would suggest that anyone reading this article look at this mans background before making a judgement. Sounds to me like a guy who is trying to position himself to make money off of exaggerated and/or false claims.

http://www.michnews.com/cgi-bin/artm.../10253/printer
Not necessarily. Many of the soldiers who suffer from post traumatic stress due to the war, often have problems recounting the events in a logical and chronological order. It may take him years of therapy to sort out exactly what happened and the U.S. military knows that. I would think most people would know that. It isn't easy sepearating what they saw from what they did and so on. Besides, there are far too many soldiers coming back with these reports to discount and discredit them all.

The Ninth Scribe
Reply

snakelegs
05-16-2008, 05:00 PM
some of the returning veterans are speaking out.
http://warcomeshome.org/
Reply

truemuslim
05-16-2008, 05:02 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
some of the returning veterans are speaking out.
http://warcomeshome.org/

wow "shh" 1000 veterans are tryna do suicide each month.
why am i not surprised?
Reply

Air Jordan
05-16-2008, 05:16 PM
Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Not necessarily. Many of the soldiers who suffer from post traumatic stress due to the war, often have problems recounting the events in a logical and chronological order. It may take him years of therapy to sort out exactly what happened and the U.S. military knows that. I would think most people would know that. It isn't easy sepearating what they saw from what they did and so on. Besides, there are far too many soldiers coming back with these reports to discount and discredit them all.

The Ninth Scribe
So let me understand. You are suggesting he has selective, variable traumatic amnesia and he confabulates things that never happened and he miraculously recovers his memory when challenged by a reporter and he has a political agenda.


Yes..I see it now. A clear case of PTSD.
Reply

Air Jordan
05-16-2008, 05:20 PM
Originally Posted by truemuslim
^ u missed the fact it is an AMERICAN soldier, meaning killing is what he signed up for..........
No it isn't. That is your idea of what he signed up for...or more likely, you know it not to be true and you are simply trying to insult.
Reply

truemuslim
05-16-2008, 05:55 PM
Originally Posted by Air Jordan
No it isn't. That is your idea of what he signed up for...or more likely, you know it not to be true and you are simply trying to insult.
so people sign up for the army so they can go spread peace around the world rather than killing innocent people and come up witha lame excuse for it? (i dont thiiink so)
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
05-16-2008, 06:01 PM
Originally Posted by Air Jordan
So let me understand. You are suggesting he has selective, variable traumatic amnesia and he confabulates things that never happened and he miraculously recovers his memory when challenged by a reporter and he has a political agenda. Yes..I see it now. A clear case of PTSD.
Oh my... a wannabe psychologist! Well, why not? I've met quite a few wannabe soldiers here too. All I said was that it's a lot to sort out and it would be like taking candy from a baby to trip him up at this point. Now, you can suggest to the members of this forum that these soldiers don't actually suffer post traumatic stress, but the military doesn't even buy that. And you can state to the members of this forum that post traumatic stress wouldn't cause a person to trip up his recollection - but the psychologists wouldn't buy that either. It does cause uneven recollection where some things stand out more than others - and it takes time to sort it all out. You never went through that, so it's not exactly fair of you to cry witch from the side-lines. You should let the qualified psychologists... do their job. In the meantime, he lived through the ordeal and, therefore, he's earned the right to talk about it. You don't have to listen. But you weren't there so you don't exactly have the right to bash him for not supporting your agenda either.

The Ninth Scribe
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
05-16-2008, 06:04 PM
Originally Posted by truemuslim
so people sign up for the army so they can go spread peace around the world rather than killing innocent people and come up witha lame excuse for it? (i dont thiiink so)
Amazing, that mind-set, huh? I always get floored when I hear that crap. But the young bucks who enlisted, weren't getting the whole story and quite a number of them were really ignorant - which is why they're having post traumatic stress disorders and what have you. You should see the commercials that advertise for enlistment here - they're very "different" from reality. But the ads aren't working now, so the military is now taking in felons and directing their ad campaigns toward parents. I expect they're going to use the recession to their advantage as well - because work is elusive nowadays. Some will enlist just to get a job.

The Ninth Scribe
Reply

TrueStranger
05-16-2008, 06:13 PM
Originally Posted by truemuslim
^ u missed the fact it is an AMERICAN soldier, meaning killing is what he signed up for, btw isnt it like hard to leave the marines??? they forcin people to go now so how could htye let him quit that easily if they despirate??
No one really knows why they signed up for.

I hope it isn’t to kill people for the sake of killing. :cry:
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
05-16-2008, 06:14 PM
These commercials are opposite of what's going on. I always see one.
Reply

truemuslim
05-16-2008, 06:16 PM
Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Amazing, that mind-set, huh? I always get floored when I hear that crap. But the young bucks who enlisted, weren't getting the whole story and quite a number of them were really ignorant - which is why they're having post traumatic stress disorders and what have you. You should see the commercials that advertise for enlistment here - they're very "different" from reality. But the ads aren't working now, so the military is now taking in felons and directing their ad campaigns toward parents.

The Ninth Scribe
care to tell me the reason for war and joining the army then? Does ANYONE benifit from it? NO . Does it make ANYTHING better ? NOOO .

Originally Posted by TrueStranger
No one really knows why they signed up for.

I hope it isn’t to kill people for the sake of killing. :cry:
Yeh allahu alim.
Some of them...MOST of them are forced to join the army, they are forcing like everybody these days here in the states. girls and boys.:raging:
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
05-16-2008, 06:18 PM
Originally Posted by Jazzy
These commercials are opposite of what's going on. I always see one.
Aren't they misleading? I get upset every time I see one! You made your kids strong... we'll make them army strong... fades to scene where small kid is helping dad load a bail of hay into a pickup truck. Maybe they should show the kid throwing a burned body into the **** pick-up truck. But then, they won't get too many enlisting if they showed that. And parents certainly wouldn't go for the sight of their sons coming back with legs and arms missing - if they don't come back in a box. Meanwhile back at the ranch, they're complaining about Hip Hop because it's... too violent, lol.

The Ninth Scribe
Reply

TrueStranger
05-16-2008, 06:21 PM
Originally Posted by truemuslim


Yeh allahu alim.
Some of them...MOST of them are forced to join the army, they are forcing like everybody these days here in the states. girls and boys.:raging:
I know a lot of (IVAW) Iraqi Veterans Against the War. The MSA and the IVAW in my college are every well connected and allied. :D

They aren't directly forced, but they are certainly tricked into joining the forces, and the recruiters mostly target low-income students. :raging:
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
05-16-2008, 06:23 PM
Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Aren't they misleading? I get upset every time I see one! You made your kids strong... we'll make them army strong... fades to scene where small kid is helping dad load a bail of hay into a pickup truck. Maybe they should show the kid throwing a burned body into the **** pick-up truck. But then, they won't get too many enlisting if they showed that. And parents certainly wouldn't go for the site of their sons coming back with legs and arms missing - if they don't come back in a box. Meanwhile back at the ranch, they're upset with Hip Hop because it's... too violent, lol.

The Ninth Scribe
Well it's kinda obvious most people are reaaalllly clueless. Coz we know what happens when people come back from events like that. I dont know how anyone falls for it :exhausted Or maybe its just me >.<
Reply

truemuslim
05-16-2008, 06:27 PM
Originally Posted by TrueStranger
I know a lot of (IVAW) Iraqi Veterans Against the War. The MSA and the IVAW in my college are every well connected and allied. :D

They aren't directly forced, but they are certainly tricked into joining the forces, and the recruiters mostly target low-income students. :raging:

Yeh, u kno some of them they threaten them so they can go. and sometimes they find the slacker in the last year of high school and start convincing them to go. like my brother
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
05-16-2008, 06:48 PM
Originally Posted by Jazzy
I dont know how anyone falls for it :exhausted Or maybe its just me >.<
Mass media campaigns that are deceitful, skillfully manipulating the numbers of the dead... and frightening the people into believing there is no other form of employment. Maybe we Americans should just stop paying their wages. Maybe we should remember that WE pay THEM - and let's just see how they like it when they get laid off? Seriously, I'm sick of their condescending tone... making us feel like they're doing us a special favor with stimulous checks when the truth is, it was our **** money in the first place!

The Ninth Scribe
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
05-16-2008, 07:10 PM
Yea it is our money...and seeing my dad, how he works....it really ticks me off. My dad is always working overnights....and only takes a day off. Now he traded his only day off for more hours, to get more money to support us. It's saddening really >.< Oops lol. anyway, most of the people i know who go into the army do it for the money.
Reply

Air Jordan
05-16-2008, 07:11 PM
Originally Posted by truemuslim
so people sign up for the army so they can go spread peace around the world rather than killing innocent people and come up witha lame excuse for it? (i dont thiiink so)
Darn. I wish you weren't so persuasive. I see your point. I have reversed my position.

I hereby wish to announce to the forum that I now agree with truemuslim that every soldier and every Marine and every sailor and every airman that has ever served in the US Armed Forces is or was a closet sociopath and signed up for the express purpose of killing innocent people for sport. Quite possibly they tormented the neighborhood pets when they were kids as well. And, I mean all tens of millions of them, btw (not the pets...the soldiers and Marines etc).

And it goes for draftees too.

Strangely, I feel better now. That was very cathartic. My therapist has been after me to work on my SGS (Superpower Guilt Syndrome)
Reply

truemuslim
05-16-2008, 07:26 PM
Originally Posted by Air Jordan
Darn. I wish you weren't so persuasive. I see your point. I have reversed my position.

I hereby wish to announce to the forum that I now agree with truemuslim that every soldier and every Marine and every sailor and every airman that has ever served in the US Armed Forces is or was a closet sociopath and signed up for the express purpose of killing innocent people for sport. Quite possibly they tormented the neighborhood pets when they were kids as well. And, I mean all tens of millions of them, btw (not the pets...the soldiers and Marines etc).

And it goes for draftees too.

Strangely, I feel better now. That was very cathartic. My therapist has been after me to work on my SGS (Superpower Guilt Syndrome)

ARE U KIDDIN ME?!?!?!!?!!!!!?????? OMG :laugh: (thats laugin at the moment)
ok
tell me what the U.S ARMY Does in IRAQ ? did they go to "help" make the world peaceful???? did they "Accidently" kill all those innocent people??? WHY are they in Iraq? Why did they go to Iraq?????


p.s. :raging::raging::raging::raging::raging::raging::r aging::raging: :statisfie
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
05-16-2008, 07:27 PM
Originally Posted by Jazzy
Yea it is our money...and seeing my dad, how he works....it really ticks me off. My dad is always working overnights....and only takes a day off. Now he traded his only day off for more hours, to get more money to support us. It's saddening really >.< Oops lol. anyway, most of the people i know who go into the army do it for the money.
It's worse than saddening. It's bordering on slavery. We work to support a government who clearly doesn't support us and your story isn't a lonely one. A co-worker of mine (58 years old), works two jobs for a studio apartment and one company is trying to get her to work a schedule that disrupts the other. The trouble is, if she does this, she'll lose the second job and the first company isn't increasing her hours - it's just changing them around a lot. If she doesn't agree, they'll cut her hours. Another of the women declared she was going to get disability... but she opted out of that because it only pays $850.00 per month! Her rent is $800.00 a month... so she'll have $50.00 left over for electric, food, laundry, etc. The government hasn't issued a cost of living increase, nor has it confronted the causes of cost of living increases.
So everyone is stuck in a rut. The only reason I'm not buried myself is because I took out a power design I had created 20 years ago that no one was interested in at the time, so I'm off the national grid. I did that two years ago in retaliation to the state allowing NStar electric to increase their cost here 87% - which translated to a $735.00 per month electric bill for me.

The Ninth Scribe
Reply

truemuslim
05-16-2008, 07:28 PM
Originally Posted by Jazzy
Yea it is our money...and seeing my dad, how he works....it really ticks me off. My dad is always working overnights....and only takes a day off. Now he traded his only day off for more hours, to get more money to support us. It's saddening really >.< Oops lol. anyway, most of the people i know who go into the army do it for the money.

Omg my dad is EXACTLY like that..it only da sundays off, somtimes.
neway
we are supporting them right now (the army) when we pay are freakin taxes
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
05-16-2008, 07:29 PM
Wow. Smart you are :D Thats lucky of ya.

Omg my dad is EXACTLY like that..it only da sundays off, somtimes.
neway
It's really sad. We've never had a vacation together. My dads been doing this since he came here. And its been 20 yrs or something. Im 20, right now....so basically since I was born. We went to disney once but my dad couldnt go with us, cuz he had to work. We are supposed to take one, but im not even sure its possible now...its horrible.

Anyways...i laugh when i see those army commercials. Whether or not this guy is exaggerating, it doesnt dismiss the fact that people are admitting whats going on there.
Reply

snakelegs
05-16-2008, 07:30 PM
Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Aren't they misleading? I get upset every time I see one! You made your kids strong... we'll make them army strong... fades to scene where small kid is helping dad load a bail of hay into a pickup truck. Maybe they should show the kid throwing a burned body into the **** pick-up truck. But then, they won't get too many enlisting if they showed that. And parents certainly wouldn't go for the sight of their sons coming back with legs and arms missing - if they don't come back in a box. Meanwhile back at the ranch, they're complaining about Hip Hop because it's... too violent, lol.

The Ninth Scribe
take heart! president bush has made a Sacrifice in honour of the dead soldiers: he has given up golf!!!!!!!! i imagine this is a great comfort to the grieving families.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008...feed=worldnews
Reply

barney
05-16-2008, 07:37 PM
Did you know that the US Army rations come in two flavours.
Raw Pig and Fried Baby. They cook them over a fire fueled by old ladies.
Reply

truemuslim
05-16-2008, 07:53 PM
Originally Posted by Jazzy
Wow. Smart you are :D Thats lucky of ya.



It's really sad. We've never had a vacation together. My dads been doing this since he came here. And its been 20 yrs or something. Im 20, right now....so basically since I was born. We went to disney once but my dad couldnt go with us, cuz he had to work. We are supposed to take one, but im not even sure its possible now...its horrible.

Anyways...i laugh when i see those army commercials. Whether or not this guy is exaggerating, it doesnt dismiss the fact that people are admitting whats going on there.
Yeh, my dads been working at the same place for like 35 yrs now, each time the hours get higher...its just the pay that i doubt gets higher. and we'r a family of...waita sec i always forget...9 minus one = 8 so 8 family members and INSHALLAH one on the way!! :statisfie

Originally Posted by barney
Did you know that the US Army rations come in two flavours.
Raw Pig and Fried Baby. They cook them over a fire fueled by old ladies.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL :laugh: (thats laughin at the moment)
Reply

Woodrow
05-16-2008, 07:56 PM
Originally Posted by truemuslim
so people sign up for the army so they can go spread peace around the world rather than killing innocent people and come up witha lame excuse for it? (i dont thiiink so)
There are exceptions to every statement, however very few Americans enlist in the military for the purpose of going to war.

It is rare for an American soldier to be used in combat. Less than 20% of the current military force is being used for Iraq and Afghanistan. Many people who enlist will never leave the US. There are more soldiers in Texas than in Iraq.

The typical enlistee believes he/she is joing to help save lives and to defend America from invasion. Very few join with a desire to kill or go to war.

At the present time there are 1,426,705 US military on active duty, another 1,458,400 on reserve status. For a total militay strength of almost 4,000,000 Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militar..._United_States

There are between 105,000 and 110,000 serving in Iraq(source:http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...iraq-intro.htm) or if you enlist in the military today, there is only about a 1 out of 30 chance of going to Iraq. Anybody joining the US military, will probably never see combat.

There are currently 114,000 US soldiers in Texas. A person joining the US military has a higher chance of being sent to Texas, than to Iraq. Source:LINK

Going back to the question most people who join the military in the USA do so for:

1. Education benefits

2. Job training

3. Desire to protect America

4. Intent to help other nations
Reply

truemuslim
05-16-2008, 07:59 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
There are exceptions to every statement, however very few Americans enlist in the military for the purpose of going to war.

It is rare for an American soldier to be used in combat. Less than 20% of the current military force is being used for Iraq and Afghanistan. Many people who enlist will never leave the US. There are more soldiers in Texas than in Iraq.

The typical enlistee believes he/she is joing to help save lives and to defend America from invasion. Very few join with a desire to kill or go to war.

At the present time there are 1,426,705 US military on active duty, another 1,458,400 on reserve status. For a total militay strength of almost 4,000,000 Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militar..._United_States

There are between 105,000 and 110,000 serving in Iraq(source:http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...iraq-intro.htm) or if you enlist in the military today, there is only about a 1 out of 30 chance of going to Iraq. Anybody joining the US military, will probably never see combat.

There are currently 114,000 US soldiers in Texas. A person joining the US military has a higher chance of being sent to Texas, than to Iraq.
Jazakallah khair
I know, but why can't they all stay in america then? Its safer for the rest of the world. And maybe when some invasion happens they can finally make themselves useful for something ...with a real reason?
Reply

Cabdullahi
05-16-2008, 08:13 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
There are exceptions to every statement, however very few Americans enlist in the military for the purpose of going to war.

It is rare for an American soldier to be used in combat. Less than 20% of the current military force is being used for Iraq and Afghanistan. Many people who enlist will never leave the US. There are more soldiers in Texas than in Iraq.

The typical enlistee believes he/she is joing to help save lives and to defend America from invasion. Very few join with a desire to kill or go to war.

At the present time there are 1,426,705 US military on active duty, another 1,458,400 on reserve status. For a total militay strength of almost 4,000,000 Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militar..._United_States

There are between 105,000 and 110,000 serving in Iraq(source:http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...iraq-intro.htm) or if you enlist in the military today, there is only about a 1 out of 30 chance of going to Iraq. Anybody joining the US military, will probably never see combat.

There are currently 114,000 US soldiers in Texas. A person joining the US military has a higher chance of being sent to Texas, than to Iraq.
Ok because you are an american you obviously know more about these things but what if those who signed up with the view only to help the country against invasion and help the innocent that came back with a fountain of blood spurting out of their hands,what can we say,most of american soldiers signed up to help and make peace when they wer sent to vietnam many of them came back as killers,other soldiers of different personalities and of a different era ,they went to afghanistan and came back as rapists with the view of just to bring peace? it doesnt make sense,and the same with iraq.what i am saying is whether they right on the application that they are the best humanitarians and make it out as if they are young angels,if they are called up to go to iraq even if the chances are slim and they are told to kill they will kill!.if you are a good person and want to bring peace and help the poor dont be in the army because the american army is quite the opposite of that full stop!
Reply

Air Jordan
05-16-2008, 08:37 PM
Originally Posted by truemuslim
Jazakallah khair
I know, but why can't they all stay in america then? Its safer for the rest of the world. And maybe when some invasion happens they can finally make themselves useful for something ...with a real reason?
The chief problem with isolationism is that those who wish you harm merely become more powerful. It has been tried a number of times in US history. It didn't turn out so well.

The history of the world did not begin when you first got texting added to your cell phone plan, sis.

There are quite a number of books that recount things that went on before you were born. Some of them are quite good.

U SHUD SCOP EM OUT.
Reply

truemuslim
05-16-2008, 08:46 PM
Originally Posted by Air Jordan
The chief problem with isolationism is that those who wish you harm merely become more powerful. It has been tried a number of times in US history. It didn't turn out so well.

The history of the world did not begin when you first got texting added to your cell phone plan, sis.

There are quite a number of books that recount things that went on before you were born. Some of them are quite good.

U SHUD SCOP EM OUT.
US history is stupid and violent all the way....and its not changing.

i dont even have a cellphone. and texting is for preppy girls.

i do read. and how u kno when i was born. im 51 yrs old. prolly older than u. i kno history bout US...even tho it sucks and its boring. but yeh
Reply

Air Jordan
05-16-2008, 08:51 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmedjunior
Ok because you are an american you obviously know more about these things but what if those who signed up with the view only to help the country against invasion and help the innocent that came back with a fountain of blood spurting out of their hands,what can we say,most of american soldiers signed up to help and make peace when they wer sent to vietnam many of them came back as killers,other soldiers of different personalities and of a different era ,they went to afghanistan and came back as rapists with the view of just to bring peace? it doesnt make sense,and the same with iraq.what i am saying is whether they right on the application that they are the best humanitarians and make it out as if they are young angels,if they are called up to go to iraq even if the chances are slim and they are told to kill they will kill!.if you are a good person and want to bring peace and help the poor dont be in the army because the american army is quite the opposite of that full stop!
Blowing up a couple of US embasies in Africa IS an invasion. Trying to sink the USS Cole IS an invasion. Sawing off a pilot's head over Pennsylvania IS an invasion.

The US military does perform many humanitarian activities but, of course, their primary goal is to defend the country. That will inevitably involve the use of force and it doesn't mean they are going to sit on some beach in New Jersey waiting for an attack.

If you object to decisions of the civilian elected government then you can advocate your position during the electoral process. That is happening as we speak. In the meantime you can keep your insulting generalizations to yourself.
Reply

truemuslim
05-16-2008, 08:54 PM
Originally Posted by Air Jordan
Sawing off a pilot's head over Pennsylvania IS an invasion.
ewwwhwwwwww +o(
Reply

Air Jordan
05-16-2008, 08:58 PM
Originally Posted by truemuslim
US history is stupid and violent all the way....and its not changing.

i dont even have a cellphone. and texting is for preppy girls.

i do read. and how u kno when i was born. im 51 yrs old. prolly older than u. i kno history bout US...even tho it sucks and its boring. but yeh
QED
Reply

Fishman
05-16-2008, 08:59 PM
Originally Posted by truemuslim
i do read. and how u kno when i was born. im 51 yrs old. prolly older than u. i kno history bout US...even tho it sucks and its boring. but yeh
:sl:
You said elsewhere that you were being homeschooled though...
:w:
Reply

truemuslim
05-16-2008, 09:03 PM
Originally Posted by Air Jordan
QED
sorry i dont speak jedi :-[

Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
You said elsewhere that you were being homeschooled though...
:w:
omg shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh (lol)
silly i meant homeschooled in...in ..a senior college thingy for old ppl who didnt get an education
Reply

Woodrow
05-16-2008, 09:06 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmedjunior
Ok because you are an american you obviously know more about these things but what if those who signed up with the view only to help the country against invasion and help the innocent that came back with a fountain of blood spurting out of their hands,what can we say,most of american soldiers signed up to help and make peace when they wer sent to vietnam many of them came back as killers,other soldiers of different personalities and of a different era ,they went to afghanistan and came back as rapists with the view of just to bring peace? it doesnt make sense,and the same with iraq.what i am saying is whether they right on the application that they are the best humanitarians and make it out as if they are young angels,if they are called up to go to iraq even if the chances are slim and they are told to kill they will kill!.if you are a good person and want to bring peace and help the poor dont be in the army because the american army is quite the opposite of that full stop!
My reply was directed as a reply to explain that most Americans do not enlist for the purpose of going to war. Our intent is good, but sometimes the truth is hidden from us.

I am a Korea/Vietnam era vet. I too came back with PTSD, but it was not diagnosed until 1995. The impact of of being shot down and crashing did not cause it. However, the realization of what I had done and the number of children I had killed with napalm was more than I could handle. As an American GI I was well trained to face death without fear, but I was not taught how to kill without sorrow or pain. The realization,that I had killed finaly sunk in 1995 and it was more than I could handle. American GIs are not trained to kill or rather not trained to kill without feeling regret.

The American GIs in Iraq are not the enemy, they too are victims and are little more than teenagers that were fed lies. For most they honestly believe they were sent to help the Iraqi people.

The problem now is there are 100,000 young American kids in Iraq. How do we get them safetly out of Iraq?
Reply

barney
05-16-2008, 09:26 PM
Originally Posted by truemuslim
sorry i dont speak jedi :-[



omg shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh (lol)
silly i meant homeschooled in...in ..a senior college thingy for old ppl who didnt get an education
Umm..Truemuslim, you said on another post your 15! you really have to hit the keys in the right order!
Reply

truemuslim
05-16-2008, 09:28 PM
Originally Posted by barney
Umm..Truemuslim, you said on another post your 15! you really have to hit the keys in the right order!
omg i give up.
yes im 15 no 51 .
cant yall keep a secret from a jedi?! :raging: lol
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
05-16-2008, 09:30 PM
Originally Posted by truemuslim
Yeh, my dads been working at the same place for like 35 yrs now, each time the hours get higher...its just the pay that i doubt gets higher. and we'r a family of...waita sec i always forget...9 minus one = 8 so 8 family members and INSHALLAH one on the way!! :statisfie
InshaAllah :D thats great.
Reply

barney
05-16-2008, 09:32 PM
Originally Posted by Air Jordan
Sawing off a pilot's head over Pennsylvania IS an invasion.

.
As is Stabbing air-hostesses to death and ploughing 300 people ranging from such fine military occupations as School Cook and Childrens Nurse, packed into a steel tube filled with hi octane gas into a building stuffed with feirce combatants like Computer technician and Tea Lady.
The way of the warrior is weak in these, young padawan.
Reply

Cabdullahi
05-16-2008, 09:35 PM
Originally Posted by Air Jordan
Blowing up a couple of US embasies in Africa IS an invasion. Trying to sink the USS Cole IS an invasion. Sawing off a pilot's head over Pennsylvania IS an invasion.

The US military does perform many humanitarian activities but, of course, their primary goal is to defend the country. That will inevitably involve the use of force and it doesn't mean they are going to sit on some beach in New Jersey waiting for an attack.

If you object to decisions of the civilian elected government then you can advocate your position during the electoral process. That is happening as we speak. In the meantime you can keep your insulting generalizations to yourself.
Hahah you the funniest jedi i have seen.To go to another man's country and take it by force and to kill anyone that you may wish and to capture them and imprison them in their own country while forcing them to act homesexual acts out of will and to rub faeces on their faces and bodies is this humanitarian to you do you know what it means?,you cannot argue you simply cannot simliar techniques of punishment and torture were stated by the american government publicly that they will use it in guantanamo bay.
Reply

barney
05-16-2008, 09:53 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmedjunior
Hahah you the funniest jedi i have seen.To go to another man's country and take it by force and to kill anyone that you may wish and to capture them and imprison them in their own country while forcing them to act homesexual acts out of will and to rub faeces on their faces and bodies is this humanitarian to you do you know what it means?,you cannot argue you simply cannot simliar techniques of punishment and torture were stated by the american government publicly that they will use it in guantanamo bay.
How many muslims were held in captivity and force fed to keep them alive by Americans on September the tenth 2001 by the Yanks?
How many Muslims were Tortured to death by Muslims on the same date? And indeed since?

A nice topic of research there for you.
Reply

Cabdullahi
05-16-2008, 10:17 PM
i dont need to do any research i dont need to prove anything everything is there if you think what the american soldiers are doing is heroic thats fine
Reply

barney
05-16-2008, 10:26 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmedjunior
well just a day ago, on Sept 9th eight people were killed in southern Iraq when British and American planes enforced the no-fly zone by bombing civilian areas.

I see. Thanks for the Info. Can you link that news item and that.

1) The dead were not AIF?
2) The RAF were firing at a civilain target.
Reply

Cabdullahi
05-16-2008, 10:28 PM
Originally Posted by barney
I see. Thanks for the Info. Can you link that news item and that.

1) The dead were not AIF?
2) The RAF were firing at a civilain target.
huh?
Reply

barney
05-16-2008, 10:40 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmedjunior
i dont need to do any research i dont need to prove anything everything is there if you think what the american soldiers are doing is heroic thats fine

Entirely as you wish, Reality is a matter of choice in responding to advice.
Reply

snakelegs
05-16-2008, 11:02 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow

The American GIs in Iraq are not the enemy, they too are victims and are little more than teenagers that were fed lies. For most they honestly believe they were sent to help the Iraqi people.

i couldn't agree more.

The problem now is there are 100,000 young American kids in Iraq. How do we get them safetly out of Iraq?
and how do we heal them of their emotional scars.
Reply

Woodrow
05-17-2008, 01:21 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
and how do we heal them of their emotional scars.
The scars can't be healed. But a compensation of sort can be made, through acknowledgement by those who fed the errors and falsehoods to them. Give them the chance to know they were mislead and were used as pawns in a very cruel game of chess.
Reply

Air Jordan
05-17-2008, 02:57 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmedjunior
.....you cannot argue you simply cannot simliar techniques of punishment and torture were stated by the american government publicly that they will use it in guantanamo bay.
I am not sure what you are on about there. Is it the waterboarding thing? Waterboarding was never used at G'itmo. It was used, apparently, three times by the CIA in Central Asia or Eastern Europe. It was always forbidden by the militray. It is now forbidden to the CIA as well.

On your larger point I will have to concede. I tried my best but the mountain of evidence arrayed against me and your rhetorical skill have taken a toll on my will to continue.

Simply stated, the US military is the focus of evil in the modern world. Everyone knows that where you live, eh?

The more interesting question is whether they are inherently evil or are they just following orders. The prevailing opinion seems to be they are inherently so, which is quite attractive as it allows you to generalize about all Americans and, even better, argue we are that way because of our failure to embrace Islam. The problem with that, of course, is that it lets their leaders off the hook. Quite a dilemma, eh?
Reply

YusufNoor
05-18-2008, 12:50 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
and how do we heal them of their emotional scars.
Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

i was wondering if i could find a safe place to post this:

After learning that more than 17 veterans per month commit suicide while under the care of the Veterans Affairs Department, senators accused VA of withholding information about suicide rates and demanded the removal of its mental health chief.
those numbers add up, BUT further down:

Murray, who clenched her jaw and seemed to shake with anger during the discussion, said she is tired of spending “every day for five-and-a-half years” trying to drag information out of VA.

She said a study showed 6,250 veterans killed themselves in 2005 — and in his e-mails, Katz “not only backed up those numbers, but said they were much higher.”

those numbers just have to be wrong, don't they?

“I’m very upset,” Murray said. “In VA, everyone knew it was higher and there are e-mails showing us that. How do we trust what you’re saying ... if what you’re saying publicly is different from what you’ve said privately? How do we trust what you’re saying today?”
source:

http://www.navytimes.com/news/2008/0...cides_042308w/

i was also surprised at the attitude of alot of the sailors on the USS Nimitz in the PBS series Carrier, who disagreed with the US position on Iraq. it seems that pretty soon our mental health serves in this country will soon be overwhelmed by these poor kids.

and worse than that, there will be some here who will cheer at this news...

i must admit, i didn't read the earlier posted rebuttal, it was presented by Michelle Malkin of FOX news:

MICHELLE MALKIN, GUEST HOST: In the "Unresolved Problem" segment tonight, the Kansas City airport under fire for reportedly building foot-washing basins for Muslim cab drivers, who have to wash their feet before prayer.

Here's how Investors Business Daily sees the situation: "You would think 9/11 would have marginalized militant Muslims, but it's only emboldened them. Now they're demanding foot baths in restrooms and getting them. What's next, prayer rug cleaning, box cutter dispensers?"
MALKIN: Because we go from foot basins for Muslim cabbies at the Kansas City airport to cabbies in Minneapolis saying that they're not going to be shepherding around passengers just because they have wine or they're blind or they have dogs, to target saying that their own employees are not going to be handling pork.
+o(

source:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,270478,00.html

:w:
Reply

Air Jordan
05-18-2008, 02:44 PM
Originally Posted by YusufNoor
....i was wondering if i could find a safe place to post this:.
Hmmmm? <antennae go up>


.
i was also surprised at the attitude of alot of the sailors on the USS Nimitz in the PBS series Carrier, who disagreed with the US position on Iraq. it seems that pretty soon our mental health serves in this country will soon be overwhelmed by these poor kids.
Yes, I noticed that too. Strange, it was almost as if the producers selectively edited the many hundreds of interviews they must have conducted to purposely convey that notion. Nah...that would never happen on PBS, would it? A PBS producer would never purposely tilt his production to court favor with the network or the overwhelmingly liberal contributors to the network? Nah..probably just my paranoia creeping in.

I saw only two officers interviewed, the skipper who was unerringly upbeat of course and only a single pilot, who expressed some reservations about the mission but admitted it was his duty to follow orders. In fact, there was a brief montage of the gung ho types. They were purposely mocked for using the same cliches. As the flight crews, in the current conflict, are the ones most overwhelmingly likely to see combat, if you are to draw any inferences about support for the mission, you might want to talk to them. If you don't know any, don't fret, I know one who was captured by the enemy, held captive for 5 1/2 years and tortured (real torture). If anyone is down on the mission it ought to be him, eh?


and worse than that, there will be some here who will cheer at this news...
What do you mean by that, sir?
Reply

Air Jordan
05-18-2008, 02:46 PM
Oh, I almsot forgot. That former Navy pilot I was talking about...he is running for President.
Reply

YusufNoor
05-18-2008, 03:13 PM
Originally Posted by Air Jordan
Hmmmm? <antennae go up>


.

Yes, I noticed that too. Strange, it was almost as if the producers selectively edited the many hundreds of interviews they must have conducted to purposely convey that notion. Nah...that would never happen on PBS, would it? A PBS producer would never purposely tilt his production to court favor with the network or the overwhelmingly liberal contributors to the network? Nah..probably just my paranoia creeping in.

a bit odd there weren't "called upon" to drop any ordinance

I saw only two officers interviewed, the skipper who was unerringly upbeat of course and only a single pilot, who expressed some reservations about the mission but admitted it was his duty to follow orders. In fact, there was a brief montage of the gung ho types. They were purposely mocked for using the same cliches. As the flight crews, in the current conflict, are the ones most overwhelmingly likely to see combat, if you are to draw any inferences about support for the mission, you might want to talk to them.
If you don't know any, don't fret, I know one who was captured by the enemy, held captive for 5 1/2 years and tortured (real torture). If anyone is down on the mission it ought to be him, eh?



What do you mean by that, sir?

you're new here, you'll see...
you sure McCain was only held for 5 years? methinks it was a wee bit longer. and he stayed when he could have left. sad to see him tarnishing a good reputation...

:w:
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
05-18-2008, 06:55 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmedjunior
Ok because you are an american you obviously know more about these things but what if those who signed up with the view only to help the country against invasion and help the innocent... Snip
The good principles that we saw in our armed forces during WW2 are being portrayed and to a very young audience. So, I agree that, when the soldiers are confronted with the reality of a war that does not bear the same principles they were shown in the recruitment media, they get hit with a serious conflict of interests... but at a time when it is too late for them to act. Once you sign, you're owned by them and you have to obey orders or face charges. To make matters worse, the soldiers have learned that, even though they are lagally required to uphold their part of the contract, the government is not legally required to uphold it's part... as seen by the Stop Loss program that hijacked so many who wanted nothing more than to exit.

Ninth Scribe
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
05-18-2008, 08:26 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
take heart! president bush has made a Sacrifice in honour of the dead soldiers: he has given up golf!!!!!!!! i imagine this is a great comfort to the grieving families.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008...feed=worldnews
OMG! I missed this = thanks. Well, if he's giving up golf which he wasn't very good at to begin with, then he should give up being president because he isn't very good at that either. :-[

Th Ninth Scribe
Reply

snakelegs
05-18-2008, 08:51 PM
Originally Posted by YusufNoor
Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

i was wondering if i could find a safe place to post this:



those numbers add up, BUT further down:



source:

http://www.navytimes.com/news/2008/0...cides_042308w/

i was also surprised at the attitude of alot of the sailors on the USS Nimitz in the PBS series Carrier, who disagreed with the US position on Iraq. it seems that pretty soon our mental health serves in this country will soon be overwhelmed by these poor kids.

and worse than that, there will be some here who will cheer at this news...
during the vietnam war, peace activists often made the mistake of blaming the soldiers - in fact some of them even got spat on when they returned. (and they didn't have a choice - service was compulsory then.)
hopefully, now there is more awareness that these guys (and women) are not the enemy, but as woodrow said below, pawns in a game that is not theirs. yes there is no draft now, but ignorance and hope for a better future is often the motivation, not to mention the criminals who are offered military service instead of jail.
the testimony of the returning vets from vietnam did a lot to turn the country against the war. and now those returning from iraq are speaking out (see the link i gave earlier).
the way we treat the soldiers both on duty and after they come back is shameful.
Reply

Air Jordan
05-18-2008, 11:39 PM
Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
The good principles that we saw in our armed forces during WW2 are being portrayed and to a very young audience. So, I agree that, when the soldiers are confronted with the reality of a war that does not bear the same principles they were shown in the recruitment media, they get hit with a serious conflict of interests... but at a time when it is too late for them to act. Once you sign, you're owned by them and you have to obey orders or face charges. To make matters worse, the soldiers have learned that, even though they are lagally required to uphold their part of the contract, the government is not legally required to uphold it's part... as seen by the Stop Loss program that hijacked so many who wanted nothing more than to exit.

Ninth Scribe
The scale of death among civilians in WWII was at least 40-50 x what it has been in Iraq...and that is with AQI deliberately targeting civilians. I am quite certain you would be complaining about the bombing campaign over Japan or Germany were the internet available then.

I do tend to agree with you on the Stop Loss program. That has to be cold slap in the face to some.
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
05-20-2008, 04:10 PM
Originally Posted by Air Jordan
The scale of death among civilians in WWII was at least 40-50 x what it has been in Iraq...and that is with AQI deliberately targeting civilians. I am quite certain you would be complaining about the bombing campaign over Japan or Germany were the internet available then.

I do tend to agree with you on the Stop Loss program. That has to be cold slap in the face to some.
Well, I've never been a big fan of warfare, so you're probably right about that. Although, I don't know about Hitler... I think I would have approved of that war. Stop Loss has ruined the trust of many Americans. Not just the soldiers, but their families too.

The Ninth Scribe
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
05-20-2008, 04:17 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
during the vietnam war, peace activists often made the mistake of blaming the soldiers - in fact some of them even got spat on when they returned.
Yes, my uncle George was one of them (soldier) which is one reason why I don't blame the soldiers, they're not the ones who declared war. They're just the ones who get stuck fighting it. Sigh.
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 71
    Last Post: 01-30-2008, 06:26 PM
  2. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 07-21-2006, 03:23 AM
  3. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-03-2006, 09:29 AM
  4. Replies: 59
    Last Post: 12-01-2005, 04:52 PM

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!