What's with the sudden outbreak of Jesus Visions?

[AntiKarateKid]

All of a sudden everyone is claiming that this obscure Muslim or that one saw a vision and converted. SOme of the other ones go something like this

" I saw Muhammad and Jesus and Muhammad couldn't look Jesus in the eye"

Is this a current fad? Has all the talk about Islam having more converts and growing faster fueled this trend? How may we respond to a " Muslim" who claimed to see Esa in a vision such as this?

We all know Shaitan can easily decive people but he can never impersonate the prophet. I would ask this person what exactly the prophet looked like in this "vision" of his. Personally I think these people were all of questionable emaan. And would also make a counter claim about Non Muslims who had "visions" and converted to Islam.

What do you guys think?

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


Here's the description of Allah's final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) in detail:

http://www.islamicboard.com/prophet-...b-tirmidh.html

It should be noted that it is possible for a person to see the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) in a dream, and that the Shaytaan cannot appear in the image of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), but he could appear in another form and claim that he is the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

It was narrated that Abu Hurayrah said: I heard the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “Whoever sees me in a dream will see me when he is awake; the Shaytaan cannot take my shape.”

(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6592; Muslim, 2266).


According to a report narrated by Ahmad (3400): The Shaytaan cannot resemble me.”



Al-Haafiz Ibn Hajar said:

We have narrated it with a complete isnaad from Ismaa’eel ibn Ishaaq al-Qaadi from Sulaymaan ibn Harb – who was one of the shaykhs of al-Bukhaari – from Hammaad ibn Zayd from Ayyoob who said:

If a man told Muhammad (meaning Ibn Sireen) that he had seen the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) [in a dream], he would say, “Describe to me the one whom you saw.” If he gave a description that he did not recognize, he would say, “You did not see him.” Its isnaad is saheeh [authentic], and I have found another report which corroborates it. Al-Haakim narrated via ‘Aasim ibn Kulayb (who said), my father told me: I said to Ibn ‘Abbaas, “I saw the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) in a dream.” He said, “Describe him to me.” He said, “I mentioned al-Hasan ibn ‘Ali and said that he looked like him.” He said, “You did indeed see him.” Its isnaad is jayyid.

Fath al-Baari, 12/383, 384.

http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?re...age%20Muhammad

[teen-omar]

jazakallhu khayran for the clarification akhi qatada
always at hand when needed ;-)
wassalam

[glo]

All of a sudden everyone is claiming that this obscure Muslim or that one saw a vision and converted. SOme of the other ones go something like this

" I saw Muhammad and Jesus and Muhammad couldn't look Jesus in the eye"

Is this a current fad? Has all the talk about Islam having more converts and growing faster fueled this trend? How may we respond to a " Muslim" who claimed to see Esa in a vision such as this?

We all know Shaitan can easily decive people but he can never impersonate the prophet. I would ask this person what exactly the prophet looked like in this "vision" of his. Personally I think these people were all of questionable emaan. And would also make a counter claim about Non Muslims who had "visions" and converted to Islam.

What do you guys think?

Everyone?? That's a lot of people! :D

I haven't heard of any such claims. Has this been in the news?
Do you have any evidence you could share in this forum?

Thank you. :)

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[Umar001]

In general, I have found that alot of these people I have read about come across, don't actually know the real Islam. Some practice in Nigeria/Iran etc, they are brought up around Islam or practicing, but their concepts are not right. At best they know the general view that non-practicing Muslims hold, you know, parents who allow their children to eat pork and they drink alchol, but they tell their children 'Fear Allah...' the child here's bits and bobs here and there and then decides to leave Islam. Their perspective is just like that of a non Muslim, because they had not read exhustivly, while believing in Islam, about Islam.

I wonder if they then saw a drea of Jesus being shy infront of the Devil if they would devil worship. Hmm.

Most of this preaching is done to arouse emotion.

[glo]

Having a profound experience of a direct revelation from Jesus Christ is something not uncommon in converts to Christianity, and not necessarily just converts from Islam.
Make of such an occurance what you will, of course ...

I know many Christians who make such claims (myself included! :D)

I don't think it's necessarily of plot by Christians to confuse the Muslim world (which AntiKarateKid may or may not be impying)

Peace

[- Qatada -]

This is where Islam and Christianity differ, since revelation from God is given to Prophets & Messengers who come with clear signs and proofs, not just any person. If everyone was given revelation - then we'd all argue and claim that 'my revelation is more truer than yours', and the exact reason for Messengers was to unite mankind on what they differed.

[glo]

This is where Islam and Christianity differ, since revelation from God is given to Prophets & Messengers who come with clear signs and proofs, not just any person. If everyone was given revelation - then we'd all argue and claim that 'my revelation is more truer than yours', and the exact reason for Messengers was to unite mankind on what they differed.

Of course you have to test your experience against God's word. If there are discrepancies, then the revelation cannot be from God.

"God told me to kill my neighbour in cold blood", for example, would be a false revelation!

[Umar001]

Yea but you have to decide what God's word is for you to test it against it, if the revelation dictates that something is God's word then that is futile.

An example would be, someone gets revelation to "God told me to kill my neighbour in cold blood" this person then goes to the religion he was brought up in, religionx and sees that according to this religion this is right, so he does it.

[glo]

I'm afraid that the bias of interpreting events to fit into our own worldview/religion/thinking, is something we all have to guard ourselves against!

Just see what happens after natural disasters ... somebody will come out and claim that this was God's punishment against homosexuals/Muslim/Christians/unbelievers etc etc.
Nobody has any proof to make any such claims.
Truth is, we sometimes want to believe what we believe ... and we will fit thing in to support it.

I believe we guard ourselves against such self-centred thinking

• by knowing God's word well,
• by discussing our own understanding with other believers,
• by listening to those with greater knowledge,
• and last but not least by asking for God's guidance and protection in prayer

Peace :)

[Umar001]

I'm afraid that the bias of interpreting events to fit into our own worldview/religion/thinking, is something we all have to guard ourselves against!

Just see what happens after natural disasters ... somebody will come out and claim that this was God's punishment against homosexuals/Muslim/Christians/unbelievers etc etc.
Nobody has any proof to make any such claims.
Truth is, we sometimes want to believe what we believe ... and we will fit thing in to support it.

Well that depends, what I think is different is that, instead of trying to find a path through reason, some experience something and go to a path which they assume is right. Like for example, someone brought up in a Muslim family, never took Islam serious, one day has a near death experience, sees angels or something. Then this individual without any reason becomes a better Muslim, now, this individual has not studied to see if Islam is true, rather he has only started praciticing Islam more because he happend to be born into a Muslim family, if he were born into a hindu, jewish, christian family this same experience would just have made him practice his given faith more.

That is what I object to. And see happening alot. Now I am not saying that such a person's religion is not accepted, maybe he might be born into the right religion and its accepted, but what if he isn't. That is the problem I find, people have an experience and then go to the faith/religion they are most comfortable/aware of and practice it.

Thats what I meant..

[ddz]

According to the first few posts, some have said that it could be the devil in disguise as he does not come into a vision when the Prophet (PBUH) is present, and one post said that it could be the devil causing deciet, from what I have gathered (Just a skim through) it seems that the devil has disguised himself as the whole vision itself or one of the 2 - Jesus or Muhammad?

- because if he has disguised himself as Muhammad, and still cannot look jesus in the eye, thenn isnt it still beneficial ON THE WHOLE that Satan cannot prevail against God Almighty's followers?

[glo]

I understand your point, Eesa. :)

[Umar001]

- because if he has disguised himself as Muhammad, and still cannot look jesus in the eye, thenn isnt it still beneficial ON THE WHOLE that Satan cannot prevail against God Almighty's followers?

Not really, since the individually may then be lead to believe that Jesus is God or something like that.

[ddz]

Not really, since the individually may then be lead to believe that Jesus is God or something like that.

Thus.. the conversion Im guessing.. hmm if overall its beneficial upon the life of the convert, and makes him a better person on the whole, isnt it better that the person had the experience in the first place?

Bear in mind im not for what has happened, nor am I against it

Since the experience is subjective and personal, what would anyone's opinion matter? the vision is private, and bear in mind that people have these experiences among others different from visions, all in benefit. Its rare for an individual to have an experience and then act negative within the aftermath stage.

If the experience has benifited the subject on the whole- meaning he is a more wholly being, respects and loves his neighbours and obeys God Almighty, then who are we as people to judge what they're vision is? if its brought them more positivity within their actions then I think there is no point on judging whether the VISION itself is credible or not. Because what has occured in the long run is better for the individual.

Just like if a Christian has a vision and converts to islam, personally I will have no opinions, and will be glad that the individual is more at peace with himself and can go on to lead a good life - just as a muslim may convert into another relgion, and lead a better life

[barney]

Of course you have to test your experience against God's word. If there are discrepancies, then the revelation cannot be from God.

"God told me to kill my neighbour in cold blood", for example, would be a false revelation!

Abraham had a false revelation? :eek:

[Umar001]

Thus.. the conversion Im guessing.. hmm if overall its beneficial upon the life of the convert, and makes him a better person on the whole, isnt it better that the person had the experience in the first place?

Bear in mind im not for what has happened, nor am I against it

Since the experience is subjective and personal, what would anyone's opinion matter? the vision is private, and bear in mind that people have these experiences among others different from visions, all in benefit. Its rare for an individual to have an experience and then act negative within the aftermath stage.

If the experience has benifited the subject on the whole- meaning he is a more wholly being, respects and loves his neighbours and obeys God Almighty, then who are we as people to judge what they're vision is? if its brought them more positivity within their actions then I think there is no point on judging whether the VISION itself is credible or not. Because what has occured in the long run is better for the individual.

Just like if a Christian has a vision and converts to islam, personally I will have no opinions, and will be glad that the individual is more at peace with himself and can go on to lead a good life - just as a muslim may convert into another relgion, and lead a better life

Well you see, if you say that a person has an experience and obeys God due to that then of course I'll be happy.

But if you take that away, and say well I'm happy even if a person is heading to hell as long as they find inner peace in this world that in my view that is cruel.

That is like saying, I can see someone walking towards fire, but because they are enjoying that walk there I wont stop them or be upset? How can you be happy knowing that a Muslim will be tormented day and night for ever and ever? Is that love?

[ddz]

Well you see, if you say that a person has an experience and obeys God due to that then of course I'll be happy.

Good to know :)

But if you take that away, and say well I'm happy even if a person is heading to hell as long as they find inner peace in this world that in my view that is cruel.

off course i wouldnt say that, thats putting words into my mouth, IF the experience doesnt lead to a beneficial outcome then I would still feel that it is not up to me to judge on where the person stands between God and they.

That experience is totally subjective and private so for me to have an input and say ohh your mad for thinking this, or I think Satan has something to do with your vision.. I think thats cruel in its own way and right..

USUALLY experiences like this are likley to be beneficial in SOME way or another for the individual, the qualities of the benefits vary, but all in all its more likley for a subject to feel more closer to God and closens the epistemic distance with them and God

Its VERY rare to have random experiences like this which have no positive outcome.

[جوري]

interesting topic
these are mere tribulations (fitan) and fit in concert with the end of the world prophecies.. to know religion well and to hold on to it, is described as holding on to 'jamara min an'nar' i.e a fieryember from hell...

you should read suret al'mo'emnoon.. and listen to it here http://www.islamway.com/?iw_s=outdoo...1&rm_size=2.73

people will keep creating sects, doubting what is patently obvious or bulls******* or being devout, these are the options out there...
once you have found truth, hold on to it, and don't be alarmed by who is doing what..
I admit that I find it admirable that my Muslim brothers and sisters are so concerned about what other people think or of their fate in the here after.. for the life of me I can't understand why?... I admit I get a little perverse pleasure in knowing some of these people are kaffirs and shall have all eternity to rot in hell insha'Allah while contemplating if it were all worth it to torment and badger the believers...

It is like telling a smoker, smoking ain't good for him but he admantly disagrees, there is nothing you can do, it is his business and his body, the only time I'll do something about it, is if they smoke in front of me with intent to kill me slowely from second hand smoke... If he wants to die of any of the numerous cancers, emphysema, lung dz etc while recounting the tales of his uncle bob who smoked until he was 122 and nothing happened to him then so be it...

Just shrug your shoulder and smile at the profound stupidity and on occasion blow some savage mordant kisses, it really drives them nuts ;D

:w:

[Woodrow]

While it is true a person may convert on the basis of a vision, it must be understood that a vision does not mean it is a true reveltion. If that were the case all visions would lead to the same path and we would all be one faith.

Because visions have led to different ends, I think it is an error, to convert on the basis of a vision alone. There seem to have been visions urging people to accept every faith at one time or another. They can not all be true but the individuals that saw them seem honestly convinced.


A vision may be a start, but it should be viewed with caution and other explanations should be explored before accepting it as a true revelation.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^Totally agreed!

[Umar001]

Good to know :)

Glad we agree.

off course i wouldnt say that, thats putting words into my mouth, IF the experience doesnt lead to a beneficial outcome then I would still feel that it is not up to me to judge on where the person stands between God and they.

That experience is totally subjective and private so for me to have an input and say ohh your mad for thinking this, or I think Satan has something to do with your vision.. I think thats cruel in its own way and right..

USUALLY experiences like this are likley to be beneficial in SOME way or another for the individual, the qualities of the benefits vary, but all in all its more likley for a subject to feel more closer to God and closens the epistemic distance with them and God

Its VERY rare to have random experiences like this which have no positive outcome.

But dont you see, if something goes against what you believe to be true then it is false, it is likely that satan has something to do with it. You say it is rude, well if you read Jesus' words (According to John) then he seemed 'rude' to some people to, why? Because there was a need.

I hear people having loads of experiences, I have a Jewish friend who has had one, many Christians who have and Muslims too, now Satan is decieving some people, should I just stand and let Satan do his work? Or should I help my brothers and sisters in the best way I can?

Sometimes we have to push an individual out of the path of a train. Sure the push maybe rude, but it is better than death. Maybe I just care about others too much.

And your Lord said: "Invoke Me, (and ask Me for anything) I will respond to your (invocation).40:60

[جوري]

If anything people should be getting 'visions' of the reverse.. Quran mentiones Jesus P over 20 times and in the best of manner.. I can't visit a christian site without having them malign the character of prophet Mohammed SAS in the worst manner.. it is as if the validation of their entire religion is contingent upon how poorly they portray Muslims which is so infantile and at same time hilarious.. I believe this not to be a vision at all, rather one of the ploys to loan more credence to the man/God concept, as more and more people finding it ludicrous and converting to Islam...
If it didn't bother them so much, the spokes person of the church wouldn't pass public statements and with such vehemence and rancor on how we are now outnumbering them..

:w:

[ddz]

But dont you see, if something goes against what you believe to be true then it is false, it is likely that satan has something to do with it. You say it is rude, well if you read Jesus' words (According to John) then he seemed 'rude' to some people to, why? Because there was a need.

Hmmm, I DO understand what you mean, dont get me wrong lol but.. I wanna know that say... if a Christian converts to.. Judaism on a vision, would you care enough to then say its wrong/the work of Satan etc?

Also, lets flip the script, and say that if a Christian was to convert to Islam on the basis of a similar Vision, would you think it would be right?

I applaud you for refering to Jesus Christ :) but when you said if something goes against what YOU beleive in did you mean you YOURSELF or on the regards of the individual? because what could be right to you may only be right to you on the basis of your own relgion, and could be the opposite in a different religion- just like when you mentioned it was wrong for the guy to have a vision because he might think Jesus is God, on your terms and religion you will think its wrong, on some denominations of Christianity, it is right.

I hear people having loads of experiences, I have a Jewish friend who has had one, many Christians who have and Muslims too, now Satan is decieving some people, should I just stand and let Satan do his work? Or should I help my brothers and sisters in the best way I can?

Visions of what kind, because Visions can be like nightmares and if the individuals were not comfortable with these visions then by all means jump in and help :)

Sometimes we have to push an individual out of the path of a train. Sure the push maybe rude, but it is better than death. Maybe I just care about others too much.

I like your analogy :) it makes sense as well, and from your previous statements that I have quoted I dont think its wrong for you to intervene, its what humans do :) the fact that you intervene is because you know in your heart that you are pleasing God Almighty when you say what you have to. And there are situations which indeed adhere to your analogy and beleive me we all need a push in the right direction

But there are also some scenarios which are delicate, its abit like... parents, raising their child to adulthood.. and then when its time to Marry, the parents may advise the Son/Daughter to Marry someone of their liking because they have far more life experience than the Son/Daughter does.. so they know people better. But if the Son/Daughter has already fallen in love with someone else, no matter what the parents might say, he/she will be likley to marry whom they love.

All the parents can do is pray to God and ask that he show the new couple the right path.

Just as perhaps if we think someone is not right.. The person who you might tell that their vision is wrong, may not like your opinion in the first place and go ahead and convert anyway... all you could do is pray that God keep them safe and offer them guidance...

Jesus done this as u said, he was one with much wisdom and knowledge, since he is not here no more, all we can do is pray to God and ask him to bless those who we think have chosen the wrong path, because our opinions may not matter to them in the first place.

[ddz]

If anything people should be getting 'visions' of the reverse.. Quran mentiones Jesus P over 20 times and in the best of manner.. I can't visit a christian site without having them malign the character of prophet Mohammed SAS in the worst manner.. it is as if the validation of their entire religion is contingent upon how poorly they portray Muslims which is so infantile and at same time hilarious.. I believe this not to be a vision at all, rather one of the ploys to loan more credence to the man/God concept, as more and more people finding it ludicrous and converting to Islam...
If it didn't bother them so much, the spokes person of the church wouldn't pass public statements and with such vehemence and rancor on how we are now outnumbering them..

:w:

you say that Jesus is mentioned, and is in the best of manner IN THE QU'RAN.. beleive me sister, there are MANY who do the exact opposite on sites, youtube and other sources...they treat him in the worse manner...towards both Jesus and Christianity..... and they claim to be Muslims...Reality is...Humans HATE...no matter the religion...we can only ask God to forgive these people... and I praise those who enter Islam, and ask God to forgive those who look down upon islam.. but the topic was upon the vision itself... perhaps if someone got a reverse one, we wouldnt be having the same convo.... on why we think its wrong, but perhaps why people would have thought it was right..

[جوري]

You can't be a Muslim and hate Jesus, it goes against the fundamental basics of Islam..
christianity is a different story all together, I see nothing wrong with rebutting half the crap that is posted out there...

cheers

[ddz]

You can't be a Muslim and hate Jesus, it goes against the fundamental basics of Islam..
christianity is a different story all together, I see nothing wrong with rebutting half the crap that is posted out there...

cheers

Well I suppose the people who do say that stuff...are not true muslims if thats what you say..I dont want to debate with you on why you think Christianity is a different story on that basis compared to Islam.. :P because lets face it... we could go at it all day and all night...

and nope, you can rubute whatever you like, its your God Given right to oppose what you beleive not to be true..

God Bless you Sister

[barney]

Apart from being sent with "clear arguements", acending to heaven, "doing miracles" which are not described and warning people to "gaurd against evil", Jesus's teachings are not mentioned.

How can a muslim follow his teachings if they are corrupted and the Koran dosnt say what they are?
Is a muslim to beleive in parts of the new testement? if so which parts?

[جوري]

You keep saying you have read the Quran cover to cover? why do you miss very basic things?

وَأَنْزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ مُصَدِّقًا لِمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ الْكِتَابِ وَمُهَيْمِنًا عَلَيْهِ فَاحْكُمْ بَيْنَهُمْ بِمَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ وَلَا تَتَّبِعْ أَهْوَاءَهُمْ عَمَّا جَاءَكَ مِنَ الْحَقِّ لِكُلٍّ جَعَلْنَا مِنْكُمْ شِرْعَةً وَمِنْهَاجًا وَلَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ لَجَعَلَكُمْ أُمَّةً وَاحِدَةً وَلَكِنْ لِيَبْلُوَكُمْ فِي مَا آتَاكُمْ فَاسْتَبِقُوا الْخَيْرَاتِ إِلَى اللَّهِ مَرْجِعُكُمْ جَمِيعًا فَيُنَبِّئُكُمْ بِمَا كُنْتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ (48) وَأَنِ احْكُمْ بَيْنَهُمْ بِمَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ وَلَا تَتَّبِعْ أَهْوَاءَهُمْ وَاحْذَرْهُمْ أَنْ يَفْتِنُوكَ عَنْ بَعْضِ مَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ إِلَيْكَ فَإِنْ تَوَلَّوْا فَاعْلَمْ أَنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ أَنْ يُصِيبَهُمْ بِبَعْضِ ذُنُوبِهِمْ وَإِنَّ كَثِيرًا مِنَ النَّاسِ لَفَاسِقُونَ (49)

And We have sent down to you the Book (this Qur’ân) in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it and Muhaymin (trustworthy in highness and a witness) over it (old Scriptures) {1} . So judge among them by what Allâh has revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging away from the truth that has come to you. To each among you, We have prescribed a law and a clear way. If Allâh had willed, He would have made you one nation, but that (He) may test you in what He has given you; so compete in good deeds. The return of you (all) is to Allâh; then He will inform you about that in which you used to differ.

{1} (V.5:48) Muhaimin : that which testifies the truth that is therein and falsifies the falsehood that is added therein.

And so judge (you O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) among them by what Allâh has revealed and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they turn you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) far away from some of that which Allâh has sent down to you. And if they turn away, then know that Allâh’s Will is to punish them for some sins of theirs. And truly, most of men are Fâsiqûn (rebellious and disobedient to Allâh).


m note: the word 'Muhaymin' وَمُهَيْمِنًا denotes abrogation to some of it...
If you want to know what is confirmatory and what is to be abrogated you'll need to enroll in Al-Azhar.. it is beyond the sphere of what this forum can offer you...

cheers

addendum:

All revealed books and teachings are identical and in complete accord with one another. The details and confirmation to this effect is proved by many Ayaat (verses) of the Glorious Qur’aan,

2. The revelations prior to Glorious Qur’aan were meant for a particular time and none of them were eternal,

3. The Glorious Qur’aan is the last of the revealed Books. It is eternal, embraces all principles of earlier messages and will remain CURRENT until the Day of Judgment:

4. وَأَنْزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ مُصَدِّقًا لِمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ الْكِتَابِ وَمُهَيْمِنًا عَلَيْهِ In Ayaah 5:48 of the Glorious Qur’aan the word مهيمن (Muhainan) means ► To watch over, oversee, to be witness to, offer security, control, protect, determine what is true. Here it means Guardian to watch and determine what is true and what is false witness.◄ The Glorious Qur’aan is spoken of as a مهيمن (Muhainan) over the previous scriptures (5:48). This is to describe it as the determining factor in deciding what is genuine and what is false in the remnants of earlier scriptures. The Glorious Qur’aan has preserved all that is of permanent worth and value in them, and has left out that which fail to meet the need of mankind and/or is adulteration. The Glorious Qur’aan is called a guardian over the previous scriptures as it enjoys Divine protection against being tampered with, a blessing denied to earlier scriptures. Thus مُهَيْمِنًا Muhaiminan is the name of the Glorious Qur’aan as well. It is also one of the excellent names of Allaah (SWT) as we read in Glorious Qur’aan 59:23 الْمَلِكُ الْقُدُّوسُ السَّلامُ الْمُؤْمِنُ الْمُهَيْمِنُ as He is guardian to determine what is true and what is false and watch over, Who expands His love and protection over His creatures, controls their affairs, determines what is true and what is false. {Note: Ayaah 59:23 contains nine names alone out of 99 names of Allaah.}

[ddz]

I see we've treaded a lil off topic now lool :P

[barney]

You keep saying you have read the Quran cover to cover? why do you miss very basic things?

I dunno! I guess i'm a bit dumb.

So in effect any of Jesus's teachings are null and void because of the Koran, but he was sent by Allah, just for that particular period and people. Got it.

[جوري]

I dunno! I guess i'm a bit dumb.

So in effect any of Jesus's teachings are null and void because of the Koran, but he was sent by Allah, just for that particular period and people. Got it.

No.. you didn't get it!

cheers

[barney]

No.. you didn't get it!

cheers

Bah, back to teh drawing b04rd!

[جوري]

I tell you, if you are truly serious, you should either be an apprentice to a scholar or enroll in a school and take a course.. some things you can't be self-taught in..

you can't do organic chemistry lab sitting on your computer, and you can't be a scholar in theology by frequenting a board!

cheers

[barney]

Hmm, I always like to self teach. I taught myself how to strip down and rebuild a motorbike by looking at the manual and using logic and common sense. You get a better feel for mechanics that way, by trial and error and failure and success. I did read Zen and the art of motorbike maintainace which applied Zen bhuddism to reboring cylinder heads. That helped a lot.

Cheers for the advice though. :)

[جوري]

I gave you a specific example of when you can't be self taught.. I am in favor of being self-taught.. you just simply can't do it for everything.. sometimes you have to concede that someone else is better than you and can teach you how to do it the right way..

cheers

[barney]

Back to the thread i suppose.

What would constitute a vision.
Visually seeing a manifestation and hearing a voice that nobody else can hear, that specifically claims to be a angel or a prophet?

Does this vision have to be whilst awake.
Mohammed saw his Visions of the nights journey whilst asleep. Paul saw his whilst awake and kicking a donkey, requiring god to clear his eyes to allow him to see what the donkey saw.

I work in mental health. I talk to people every day who hear voices and see things. Mostly they are things like "MI5 is hunting you" or similar, but they ascribe these voices to either technology (radio waves transmitted into their heads), God (warning them or chooseing them for a purpose or task) or Demons (out to get them).
How can a Vision be defined as seperate from mental illness?

[glo]

That is the problem I find, people have an experience and then go to the faith/religion they are most comfortable/aware of and practice it.

What if the experience does the opposite and it prompts you to question the religion you are most comfortable or familiar with, to search another religion, and to find what you believe to be the truth there?

[Umar001]

Hmmm, I DO understand what you mean, dont get me wrong lol but.. I wanna know that say... if a Christian converts to.. Judaism on a vision, would you care enough to then say its wrong/the work of Satan etc?

Yes, specially if I had the feeling that the person is genuine.

Also, lets flip the script, and say that if a Christian was to convert to Islam on the basis of a similar Vision, would you think it would be right?

As I said there is a chance that a person may embrace the right religion, and I would think that the person had done so, but I would work with the person and show him other reasons for being a Muslim, so as to have solid foundation. This is something which I have/would talk to someone who would approach me to become a Muslim.

I applaud you for refering to Jesus Christ :) but when you said if something goes against what YOU beleive in did you mean you YOURSELF or on the regards of the individual? because what could be right to you may only be right to you on the basis of your own relgion, and could be the opposite in a different religion- just like when you mentioned it was wrong for the guy to have a vision because he might think Jesus is God, on your terms and religion you will think its wrong, on some denominations of Christianity, it is right.

Yes it is relative, we all think something is true.

Visions of what kind, because Visions can be like nightmares and if the individuals were not comfortable with these visions then by all means jump in and help :)

What if these visions made the people comfortable, but you felt they were wrong, would you jump in and help?

I like your analogy :) it makes sense as well, and from your previous statements that I have quoted I dont think its wrong for you to intervene, its what humans do :) the fact that you intervene is because you know in your heart that you are pleasing God Almighty when you say what you have to. And there are situations which indeed adhere to your analogy and beleive me we all need a push in the right direction

But there are also some scenarios which are delicate, its abit like... parents, raising their child to adulthood.. and then when its time to Marry, the parents may advise the Son/Daughter to Marry someone of their liking because they have far more life experience than the Son/Daughter does.. so they know people better. But if the Son/Daughter has already fallen in love with someone else, no matter what the parents might say, he/she will be likley to marry whom they love.

All the parents can do is pray to God and ask that he show the new couple the right path.

Just as perhaps if we think someone is not right.. The person who you might tell that their vision is wrong, may not like your opinion in the first place and go ahead and convert anyway... all you could do is pray that God keep them safe and offer them guidance...

Jesus done this as u said, he was one with much wisdom and knowledge, since he is not here no more, all we can do is pray to God and ask him to bless those who we think have chosen the wrong path, because our opinions may not matter to them in the first place.

Exactly, we have to assess the situation. That is what I called for. :)

What if the experience does the opposite and it prompts you to question the religion you are most comfortable or familiar with, to search another religion, and to find what you believe to be the truth there?

That is good in my understanding, but if you only question it because you are brought up in that religion and don't question others than that's starting with a bias. Like saying 'I've been brought up x I'll question it and if it doesnt fit I will become y' To pick another religion because one is false isn't the best of choices.

Like for me, I had two decisions, one to leave Christianity, two to embrace Islam. Leaving Christianity did not entail embracing Islam.

[glo]

That is good in my understanding, but if you only question it because you are brought up in that religion and don't question others than that's starting with a bias. Like saying 'I've been brought up x I'll question it and if it doesnt fit I will become y' To pick another religion because one is false isn't the best of choices.

Like for me, I had two decisions, one to leave Christianity, two to embrace Islam. Leaving Christianity did not entail embracing Islam.

I was thinking if the experience somebody had clearly contradicted their previous religion, and then led that person to have cause to question their existing faith.

In your time as a Christian there must have been a moment when your old beliefs did not seem right anymore.
Now, that may not have been a 'Paulian road to Damaskus'-type conversion experience, that may just have been something you heard or read ... but something that caused you to doubt anyway ...

You then had a choice.
Either to believe that this was Satan trying to deceive you, and therefore to try and put your doubts aside and fight them.
Or to give in to your doubts and change your beliefs (which, as you said, first meant you stopped being a Christian, and (at some point sooner or later) you reverted to Islam).

Those are the choices people of all faiths and none may be faced with from time to time - and they choose (as is their God-given right) according to their own free will.

Your reversion, which you yourself and other Muslims greeted as a wonderful thing and the only right choice, your mother fretted and worried over, because she felt you were making a serious mistake.

The same happens in reverse to all those who convert from Islam to Christianity - or, for that matter, from any one religion to another ...

Like the Psalm verse in my signature says, let's pray that God will guide us to live lives which are pleasing to him ... and that we will have the wisdom to listen to his guidance.

Peace

[Umar001]

I was thinking if the experience somebody had clearly contradicted their previous religion, and then led that person to have cause to question their existing faith.

In your time as a Christian there must have been a moment when your old beliefs did not seem right anymore.
Now, that may not have been a 'Paulian road to Damaskus'-type conversion experience, that may just have been something you heard or read ... but something that caused you to doubt anyway ...

You then had a choice.
Either to believe that this was Satan trying to deceive you, and therefore to try and put your doubts aside and fight them.
Or to give in to your doubts and change your beliefs (which, as you said, first meant you stopped being a Christian, and (at some point sooner or later) you reverted to Islam).

Those are the choices people of all faiths and none may be faced with from time to time - and they choose (as is their God-given right) according to their own free will.

Your reversion, which you yourself and other Muslims greeted as a wonderful thing and the only right choice, your mother fretted and worried over, because she felt you were making a serious mistake.

The same happens in reverse to all those who convert from Islam to Christianity - or, for that matter, from any one religion to another ...

Like the Psalm verse in my signature says, let's pray that God will guide us to live lives which are pleasing to him ... and that we will have the wisdom to listen to his guidance.

Peace

No no, that is not what I was talking about, the two choices you had are not the choices.

An experience of something supernatural or near death may be followed by a choice:

1.Practice my religion more.
2.Start practicin a religion and chosing the one I am most familiarwith
3.Search for a religion

And so forth.

Now, what you speak of is totally different, because as you stated its about reading information and so forth.

This is different because the former is an experience which could have many influences, origins, where as the latter is a journey based, as much as possible, on being objective and seeking God's justice, i.e. making the path clear.

Now, some people have an experience and then dont do the journey part, they just end up taking the experience and then running to their previous faith or faith they are familiar with, or some just any religion. That's not right in my view. But if you have an experience and that leads you to start a journey then that's good.

Erm am gonna stop now cos am gonna get confused.

[جوري]

Do people even know what Jesus looks like?
He always seems to look like a confused hippie who got lost on his way to Woodstock..
Then of course there is the black and Hispanic, Greek and Russian version of him-- never chinese which explains why they are best governed by a fellow like Xedong...

Hilarious

[glo]

Do people even know what Jesus looks like?
He always seems to look like a confused hippie who got lost on his way to Woodstock..
Then of course there is the black and Hispanic, Greek and Russian version of him-- never chinese which explains why they are best governed by a fellow like Xedong...

Hilarious

That made me laugh, Skye.

I am imagining Jesus appearing to you, and you saying "You are JESUS?? You don't look like Jesus, you know ...!" :D

But seriously, when Jesus called his disciples according to the gospels, they just stopped what they were doing and followed him.
I believe the same still applies today.
If Jesus calls you to follow him, you'd be a fool to turn him away! And you won't stop to wonder what he looks like ... (Just my own opinion, of course.)

Peace :)

[جوري]

That made me laugh, Skye.

I am imagining Jesus appearing to you, and you saying "You are JESUS?? You don't look like Jesus, you know ...!" :D

But seriously, when Jesus called his disciples according to the gospels, they just stopped what they were doing and followed him.
I believe the same still applies today.
If Jesus calls you to follow him, you'd be a fool to turn him away! And you won't stop to wonder what he looks like ... (Just my own opinion, of course.)

Peace :)

I am glad you said that, because in fact there is an interesting story about a man who answered the call os Jesus (p) which I wrote of under the Muslim convert thread..
and here it is

This is the honest truth to God story of a man who loved Jesus.... I was told this story by a Puerto Rican lady who knew the man personally and as a result reverted herself...

J*** was a devout catholic... After 911 he used to throw the local mosque in his part of NJ with tomatoes and other items and harass the local worshippers. They used to avoid getting into confrontations with him as he was zealous and loved a good fight... No one wanted to get on his bad side...
He had some affliction since childhood, though I am not sure of what nature... most likely a congenital cardiac anomaly... as a result he was not feeling very well toward the last few weeks of his life and he'd pray to Jesus every night as he loved him so very much...

One night Jesus came to him in a dream and said "say Mohammedi" J*** really didn't understand... so Jesus(PBUH) asked him to repeat it again "Mohammedi" and one final time before he left (Mohammedi) ... I found it strange I am not sure why he didn't say Mohammed instead of Mohammedi?... but that is how the story was told to me ....I digress... J*** woke up in a cold sweat and was restless for the remainder of the night.....

The next morning he headed toward that local Mosque, and people were expecting trouble from him, but he asked to see the Imam, and told him "I wish to convert RIGHT NOW"... the Imam asked him a few questions but J*** really wanted to convert first and right away... He took his shahada, then told the Imam the story. Later he joined the rest for Isha prayer, and while he was sajid I swear to God this is a true story... his life left him.... he died on the prayer rug........

When I heard that story from sister B***** I was startled and didn't want to believe it. It seemed unusual .... but, She herself was a catholic before, and now is Muslims, she divorced her old husband, married a new one... Sobhan Allah..... I am seeing such a rise in conversion in the Hispanic community...... All I can say is
Allahu Akbar
________________

http://www.islamicboard.com/new-musl...tml#post510681

cheers

[glo]

What would constitute a vision.
Visually seeing a manifestation and hearing a voice that nobody else can hear, that specifically claims to be a angel or a prophet?
Does this vision have to be whilst awake.

People are drawn to God in different ways.
Some people claim to have had visions of some kind.
Some claim to hear the voice of God.
Others may find rubber ducks in unexpected places. :giggling:

In my experience though, most people do not claim to have had such experiences.
More often it is something they hear or read ... and something just 'clicks into place'. That experience, I believe, is quite common when you read people conversion stories (This applies to converts to all religions, not just Christians ones. Just look at reversion stories here in LI.)
It is describes as 'the scales falling from ones eyes' or 'suddenly seeing the light' or just 'suddenly having a sense of truth/peace/calm'.

Whatever it is that causes such a thing, most converts will be sure that it was g/God(s) who caused it (- except for converts to atheism, who will claim it was their own intellect).

As somebody who works in the field of mental health, you will probably agree that any experience that causes a person to suddenly and quite dramatically change their beliefs and/or attitudes and behaviours, must be quite a powerful one!
Could it be God?

Purely from mental health point of view, what kind of things, in your experience, could be the cause? Intoxication? Severe stress? Brain trauma?

I work in mental health. I talk to people every day who hear voices and see things. Mostly they are things like "MI5 is hunting you" or similar, but they ascribe these voices to either technology (radio waves transmitted into their heads), God (warning them or chooseing them for a purpose or task) or Demons (out to get them).
How can a Vision be defined as seperate from mental illness?

I have a friend who is a mental health nurse and a born-again Christian. Next time I see him I will try to remember to ask him his opinion on how to discern whether a voice is from God or caused by a mental illness.

Have a good evening, Barney. :)

[glo]

I am glad you said that, because in fact there is an interesting story about a man who answered the call os Jesus (p) which I wrote of under the Muslim convert thread..
and here it is

http://www.islamicboard.com/new-musl...tml#post510681

cheers

How can Jesus appear to him in a dream, if Jesus was a just a man, and is long dead ...? Is he, like a ghost? :?
On the same basis, does Muhammed appear to people as a vision?

P.S. Since you were questioning what Jesus looks like, you should ask this guy ... he knows! :D

[Whatsthepoint]

Do people even know what Jesus looks like?
He always seems to look like a confused hippie who got lost on his way to Woodstock..
Then of course there is the black and Hispanic, Greek and Russian version of him-- never chinese which explains why they are best governed by a fellow like Xedong...

Hilarious

hehe, take look at these. Not exactly chinese but I think the samurai version will do the trick.

[glo]

^ He'll never get into Woodstock! :D

[جوري]

How can Jesus appear to him in a dream, if Jesus was a just a man, and is long dead ...? Is he, like a ghost? :?

What is your question?

On the same basis, does Muhammed appear to people as a vision?

Again, I am not sure what you mean..

P.S. Since you were questioning what Jesus looks like, you should ask this guy ... he knows! :D

He has passed away, did you not read the story?

cheers

[جوري]

hehe, take look at these. Not exactly chinese but I think the samurai version will do the trick.

Got to love those Japs!

cheers

[glo]

What is your question?

My question is, how can you have a vision of somebody who is dead?
My only possible explanation would be that it must be a ghost, or that some magic is involved ...
Perhaps Islam has an answer to this, but to me the concept of a dead person appearing as a vision sounds very suspect ...

Again, I am not sure what you mean..

The man in your story became a Muslim because he had a alleged vision of Jesus.
Do you know of any accounts of people having Muhammed appear to them in a vision?

I am asking because, according to Islam, both Jesus and Muhammed are humans and prophets of God.
So do both have a similar ability/power to appear as a vision ... :?
If Jesus can (although I don't know how a dead person can appear as a vision - see above), then Muhammed can too - or not? :?

He has passed away, did you not read the story?

Got me! :-[
I didn't read it as carefully as I could have.
So we still don't know what he looks like ...

Salaam :)

[جوري]

My question is, how can you have a vision of somebody who is dead?
My only possible explanation would be that it must be a ghost, or that some magic is involved ...
Perhaps Islam has an answer to this, but to me the concept of a dead person appearing as a vision sounds very suspect ...

Jesus PBUH isn't dead according to Islam.. other than that I am not sure what you are talking about? I suspect you didn't read or didn't understand the story!

The man in your story became a Muslim because he had a alleged vision of Jesus.
Do you know of any accounts of people having Muhammed appear to them in a vision?

Many people have had dreams of Prophet Mohammed SAS, my dad is one, shortly before the war of 73.. why do you ask?

I am asking because, according to Islam, both Jesus and Muhammed are humans and prophets of God.
So do both have a similar ability/power to appear as a vision ... :?
If Jesus can (although I don't know how a dead person can appear as a vision - see above), then Muhammed can too - or not? :?

The man was a catholic who loved Jesus.. it makes sense to me that Jesus would appear to him to guide him unto the path of the righteous right before he died as he was genuinely a good person! You can have a dream of any of God's prophets in Islam, it isn't prohibited to just one ..
Jesus is God to you, he isn't to us.. thus I question the logic of what God looks like and how you can tell if it is your God from an impostor? To me Allah SWT is above description and beyond human form thus couldn't appear to anyone in a dream!

Got me! :-[
I didn't read it as carefully as I could have.
So we still don't know what he looks like ...

Salaam :)

What he looks like seems orthogonal in the scheme of this story don't you think?

cheers

[barney]

People are drawn to God in different ways.
Some people claim to have had visions of some kind.
Some claim to hear the voice of God.
Others may find rubber ducks in unexpected places. :giggling:

In my experience though, most people do not claim to have had such experiences.
More often it is something they hear or read ... and something just 'clicks into place'. That experience, I believe, is quite common when you read people conversion stories (This applies to converts to all religions, not just Christians ones. Just look at reversion stories here in LI.)
It is describes as 'the scales falling from ones eyes' or 'suddenly seeing the light' or just 'suddenly having a sense of truth/peace/calm'.

Whatever it is that causes such a thing, most converts will be sure that it was g/God(s) who caused it (- except for converts to atheism, who will claim it was their own intellect).

As somebody who works in the field of mental health, you will probably agree that any experience that causes a person to suddenly and quite dramatically change their beliefs and/or attitudes and behaviours, must be quite a powerful one!
Could it be God?

Purely from mental health point of view, what kind of things, in your experience, could be the cause? Intoxication? Severe stress? Brain trauma?

I have a friend who is a mental health nurse and a born-again Christian. Next time I see him I will try to remember to ask him his opinion on how to discern whether a voice is from God or caused by a mental illness.

Have a good evening, Barney. :)

It could be God.
Hence the tag Aggy and not Athy in my profile.

What kind of things can be the cause of Visual Hallucinations?
Schizophrenia
Drug Induced Psychotic Episodes (Jean de Arc)
Affective Psychosis
Alcohol and Drug withdrawal effects.
Certain Medications and Illicit substances
Head Trauma
Organic illnesses such as atrophy of the brain.
Extreme states of stress and duress.

How would I filter mental illness from a communication with a omnipotent deity?
First I have to say, my basis is that it is a mental illness. Because all the above are proven and recorded medical facts and Visions are not.

I would look at what the Vision was. If it was Jesus looking like the pictures and wearing a halo, I'd be more skeptical. The Halo is an ancient pagan symbol hijacked by todays montheists, The classic long flowing hair and beard, perhaps thats in tune with what his earthly form looked like.

What is he saying? "My beloved child, follow me, I have a task for you,....go to Darfour and give aid to the people there" Thats pretty much in touch with my expectations of a vision. (Although personally, given that , I would say back to him, "Hey , sure, but could you depose their government, set up stability and dump two hundred thousand fish and loaves onto the refugee camp to help out?")

If the Vision or voice says "we are watching you...be careful....we have you bugged" It's going to be more of a clear-cut Auditory Hallucination, as is "Kill your son on an alter and burn him as a sacrifice to me"

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
If you've heard about it on the internet, it's probably nothing more than horsecrap.

[glo]

Hi Skye

I think I understand now why we don't seem to understand each other's posts.

I am talking about visions - as in 'the mystical experience of seeing as if with the eyes the supernatural or a supernatural being' (see American Heritage Dictionary)
You seem to be talking about dreams - as in 'a series of images, ideas, emotions, and sensations occurring involuntarily in the mind during certain stages of sleep' (see same dictionary)

My point was that (in my mind, at least) a dead person cannot appear to somebody in a vision ...

What he looks like seems orthogonal in the scheme of this story don't you think?

I agree.
I was only pulling your leg. :-[ Remember, you were the one posting the question how people knew what Jesus looked like ...

Personally, I think what he looked like is entirely extraneous. :)

Peace

[glo]

Jesus PBUH isn't dead according to Islam.. other than that I am not sure what you are talking about? I suspect you didn't read or didn't understand the story!

I missed that bit earlier.

Can you explain this further, please? In what sense is Jesus not dead?
In the sense that he is in the afterlife, as all human beings are after their physical death?
Or does he have a special status due to being a prophet?

(What I mean is this. If Jesus can appear to people as a vision (bear in mind that I am talking about a vision, not a dream (see above post) - and I am saying 'if' because we haven't actually clarifies yet as to whether, according to Islam, Jesus could appear as a vision, rather than in a dream), then can all deceased humans appear to their living relatives as visions?
Or just 'special people', such as prophets?

(Please be patient with me, Skye. I am not trying to be funny or difficult ... I am genuinely asking. :))

[جوري]

Hi Skye

I think I understand now why we don't seem to understand each other's posts.

I am talking about visions - as in 'the mystical experience of seeing as if with the eyes the supernatural or a supernatural being' (see American Heritage Dictionary)
You seem to be talking about dreams - as in 'a series of images, ideas, emotions, and sensations occurring involuntarily in the mind during certain stages of sleep' (see same dictionary)

My point was that (in my mind, at least) a dead person cannot appear to somebody in a vision ...

Who is dead here? and you can have a vision in dream form ( I thought that is where most visions happen?) unless one is delusional?... Jesus (p) isn't dead he was risen, the death of God is part of christian mythology and has no bearing in Islam..

I agree.
I was only pulling your leg. :-[ Remember, you were the one posting the question how people knew what Jesus looked like ...

Personally, I think what he looked like is entirely extraneous. :)

Peace

You need not 'see' a person in a dream to have the notion evoked that it is them.. I can hav a dream about my dead grandmother and she would look nothing like I remember but still experience and know her vividly...

a different concept though from what 'God' looks like.. anthropomorphism represents God with human traits, thus I wonder how you can tell it is God? There is none like him according to Islam [ 112:1-4] Proclaim, "He is the One and only GOD. "The Absolute GOD."Never did He beget. Nor was He begotten.And there is none like unto Him!"
Qur'an:

Makes me wonder whom the 'visions' are actually of..

given all this, I should state and this is my personal opinion.. there are no such thing as visions.. just sick people with delusions..

having dreams can be prophetic I have personally had many dreams that happened ( I can't explain them nor care to defend them).. but if you are awake and seeing God or his mother, or his son or his spirit, chances are you are suffering a mental illness...
cheers

[جوري]

I missed that bit earlier.

Can you explain this further, please? In what sense is Jesus not dead?
In the sense that he is in the afterlife, as all human beings are after their physical death?
Or does he have a special status due to being a prophet?

He ascended (not crucified) to return, fulfil his prophecies have a wife and die like men do!

(What I mean is this. If Jesus can appear to people as a vision (bear in mind that I am talking about a vision, not a dream (see above post) - and I am saying 'if' because we haven't actually clarifies yet as to whether, according to Islam, Jesus could appear as a vision, rather than in a dream), then can all deceased humans appear to their living relatives as visions?
Or just 'special people', such as prophets?

visions only occur in dreams... I believe people very strong in faith have dreams that happen as it is described as being 1/40th of prophethood... in other words prophets had special gifts ( don't ask me to list all forty) having dreams (like Joseph) is one of them with meaning and significance if you are able to interpret them...

(Please be patient with me, Skye. I am not trying to be funny or difficult ... I am genuinely asking. :))

peace

[glo]

Who is dead here? and you can have a vision in dream form ( I thought that is where most visions happen?) unless one is delusional?... Jesus (p) isn't dead he was risen, the death of God is part of christian mythology and has no bearing in Islam..

According to Islam he never died? (How come I have spent so long in an Islamic forum, and haven't come across this yet ... :?)
Edit: Sorry, our posts are crossing now. I have read your second post with regards to this now. Thank you! :)

You need not 'see' a person in a dream to have the notion evoked that it is them.. I can hav a dream about my dead grandmother and she would look nothing like I remember but still experience and know her vividly...

Yes, that's where a dream is different from a vision ...

given all this, I should state and this is my personal opinion.. there are no such thing as visions.. just sick people with delusions..

At least I feel I have an answer to my question.
Thank you :)

having dreams can be prophetic I have personally had many dreams that happened ( I can't explain them nor care to defend them).. but if you are awake and seeing God or his mother, or his son or his spirit, chances are you are suffering a mental illness...

I see you are in agreement with barney then. Must be a first! :D

Actually, the more I think about it the more it doesn't make sense that according to Islam God should allow visions ... after all, images of God and his prophets are fobidden. (Am I right in thinking so? Everything I have ever learned about Islam seems to escape me lately ...)

Can I ask why you are not asleep, dear sister? :)

Peace

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

It's been mentioned many times on the forum, that Isa(as), or Jesus, didn't die.

Btw, if I'm not mistaken, images or statues of any sort are also forbidden in Christianity...

Peace

[glo]

It's been mentioned many times on the forum, that Isa(as), or Jesus, didn't die.

Peace

Greetings, Jazzy

But Skye just wrote that Jesus did die ... :?

He ascended (not crucified) to return, fulfil his prophecies have a wife and die like men do!

Or does that mean that Islam teaches he will have a wife and die when he returns in the future??

(Why am I having such trouble understanding? :-[)

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Hey Glo,

Im pretty sure she said he didn't die.

Jesus PBUH isn't dead according to Islam.. other than that I am not sure what you are talking about? I suspect you didn't read or didn't understand the story!

Or does that mean that Islam teaches he will have a wife and die when he returns in the future??

(Why am I having such trouble understanding? :-[)

Yes you got it now.

[barney]

I see you are in agreement with barney then. Must be a first! :D

I'd have fainted myself, but i dont totally discount visions as PA does.
To be honest I dont see why she should. God being all powerful could create a waking vision if she/it/he so chose.
I just work on the assumtion, that a loving benificent God would, y'know...talk a little more to people, interact a little. :)

Still yeah, very close to agreeing with her, and that is the cue for me to take MY pills.

[جوري]

According to Islam he never died? (How come I have spent so long in an Islamic forum, and haven't come across this yet ... :?)
Edit: Sorry, our posts are crossing now. I have read your second post with regards to this now. Thank you! :)

I know it was a conundrum to me too, how you can spend this much time in here and not have come across this basic fundamental tenet of Islam?

Yes, that's where a dream is different from a vision ...

Visions come in form of dreams, I don't believe they do in any other form..

At least I feel I have an answer to my question.
Thank you :)

:)

I see you are in agreement with barney then. Must be a first! :D

?

Actually, the more I think about it the more it doesn't make sense that according to Islam God should allow visions ... after all, images of God and his prophets are fobidden. (Am I right in thinking so? Everything I have ever learned about Islam seems to escape me lately ...)

Images that are drawn by men to depict creation are a completely different animal from what Allah swt allows his worshippers to know in their dreams don't you think? I know the subject of dreams has been discussed more than once in this forum.. it is in the selection of what one chooses to read and chooses to believe!

Can I ask why you are not asleep, dear sister? :)

Peace

I believe I went to sleep right after my last night's post...

cheers

[جوري]

Greetings, Jazzy

But Skye just wrote that Jesus did die ... :?

Or does that mean that Islam teaches he will have a wife and die when he returns in the future??

(Why am I having such trouble understanding? :-[)

Dear Glo.. I know I am a foreigner and English isn't my first nor even my second language, but I believe you are intentionally misconstruing my posts?

I said Jesus P didn't die, he ascended, to come back during the end of time, personally I am not sure how Jesus who is dead or died will come back in accordance to christianity? will he be born again to some other mother of God? will he come back as a Beligian? whatever the case, in Islam ALL men die, and thus Jesus' second return, he will descend fulfill his prophecies, get married, establish peace for 70 years, I know according to christianity it is 1000 or whatever in Islam for 70, we don't know if it is 70 minus his actual age, or 70 plus his age when he first ascended.. and then he will die, as all men do.. as in he will die after his descent to earth..

I hope this time I was clear?
my humble apologies otherwise

cheers

[Fishman]

:sl:
If you've heard about it on the internet, it's probably nothing more than horsecrap.

:sl:
I can't believe that nobody else thought to say that...

I've had several dreams in which I saw somebody who was pretending to be the Prophet (peace be upon him) in some way. In one I saw a painting or some kind of drama in which he was shown as a rich man in purple and black robes, which is an incorrect description according the hadith. In another he was dressed as I expected the Prophet (peace be upon him) to be, but he just looked like a normal person with no nur or anything, and I knew that it was just somebody acting.
:w:

[barney]

How did you know he was claiming to be the prophet?

[Fishman]

How did you know he was claiming to be the prophet?

:sl:
I just did. It was part of the dream. Its like when you dream that you are at home, and you know where you are despite the fact that everything looks completely different. In the same way also saw through the disguise/costume.

the rest of the dreams weren't very enlightening. It was just one of those weird dreams, like the one I had about fighting off an army of German stormtroopers that were driving JCBs.
:w:

[barney]

Yeah, i know what you mean now. I have that too.

As to the second dream, i'd lay off the Call Of Duty2 X Box games for a few days! :D

[Fishman]

Yeah, i know what you mean now. I have that too.

As to the second dream, i'd lay off the Call Of Duty2 X Box games for a few days! :D

:sl:
How do you know my gaming habits? That's exactly what I was playing the night before I had that dream! :D
:w:

[barney]

Spooky!

[Fishman]

Spooky!

:sl:
I also had a crazy uncle in the dream with shifty eyes, unkempt hair, a big shotgun and a habit of eating straight out of tins...
:w:

[barney]

Yeah, I cant interprete that one for ya dude. :)

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^LOL. haha. I dont think he wants u too anyway...

[glo]

Dear Glo.. I know I am a foreigner and English isn't my first nor even my second language, but I believe you are intentionally misconstruing my posts?

I promise you that that is not the case, dearest Skye.
Please remember that English is not my mother tongue either ... :)

I hope this time I was clear?
my humble apologies otherwise

I believe so. Thank you for your patience. :)

[Amadeus85]

Yeah, i know what you mean now. I have that too.

As to the second dream, i'd lay off the Call Of Duty2 X Box games for a few days! :D

Barney , have you seen this video about angry german kid playin Unreal? :D
Warning- explicit content.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBVmfIUR1DA

[barney]

Barney , have you seen this video about angry german kid playin Unreal? :D
Warning- explicit content.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBVmfIUR1DA

I'll watch it when i get home....the boss might walk in!

[Amadeus85]

I'll watch it when i get home....the boss might walk in!

Hehe sure. Its truely amazing. :D Enjoy.

[MustafaMc]

In my experience though, most people do not claim to have had such experiences.
More often it is something they hear or read ... and something just 'clicks into place'. That experience, I believe, is quite common when you read people conversion stories (This applies to converts to all religions, not just Christians ones. Just look at reversion stories here in LI.)
It is describes as 'the scales falling from ones eyes' or 'suddenly seeing the light' or just 'suddenly having a sense of truth/peace/calm'.

Whatever it is that causes such a thing, most converts will be sure that it was g/God(s) who caused it (- except for converts to atheism, who will claim it was their own intellect).

You could have pulled this from my reversion story, and you are right that I did not have a "vision" that drove my reversion. Yes, I believe that the change in belief about Truth and falsehood comes but from God.

[MustafaMc]

Or does that mean that Islam teaches he will have a wife and die when he returns in the future??

I believe that we are in agreement that, according to Islam, Jesus has not yet died, but rather that he was protected from crucifixion and was raised to Heaven to return near the end of time.

Quran 4:157-158 They even say: "We have killed the Messiah, Isa (Jesus), son of Maryam, the Rasool of Allah." Whereas in fact, neither did they kill him nor did they crucify him but they thought they did because the matter was made dubious for them. Those who differ therein are only in doubt. They have no real knowledge, they follow nothing but merely a conjecture, certainly they did not kill him (Jesus). Nay! The fact is that Allah took him up to Himself. Allah is Mighty, Wise.

[Delta]

All of a sudden everyone is claiming that this obscure Muslim or that one saw a vision and converted. SOme of the other ones go something like this

" I saw Muhammad and Jesus and Muhammad couldn't look Jesus in the eye"

Is this a current fad? Has all the talk about Islam having more converts and growing faster fueled this trend? How may we respond to a " Muslim" who claimed to see Esa in a vision such as this?

We all know Shaitan can easily decive people but he can never impersonate the prophet. I would ask this person what exactly the prophet looked like in this "vision" of his. Personally I think these people were all of questionable emaan. And would also make a counter claim about Non Muslims who had "visions" and converted to Islam.

What do you guys think?

I'm a Christian Roman Catholic

You know that there is apparition of our Holy Lady Mary ?

Do you thing that the church believes in all that at once without question ?

See ou Lady Mary of Fatima - from Portugal - Cova da Iria

I'm portuguese, so I know it pretty well

There was 3 little shepherds children who saw the Lady Mary

The church passed thru several phases until it finally recognized as a true revelation

The church rejected that at first, strongly
The church then assumed that that could had happen
The church finally accepted as happen in fact

What has contributed to that ? several things

- The little children, less than 11 years old, 2 of them died as they predicted by a revelation of the Holy Mary...much before that happened

- Mother Lucia had a life of reclusion thereafter

- Communism as a evil "religion" did end as what was revealed by Holy Mary

- There was thousands eyewitnesses of the miracle of the sun

- the third prophecy about the killing of our Rome Pontiff was interpreted has fulfilled in the person of JP II - well, is a interpretation....

Well, but further on someone in the church also notice something that was unseen before :

Why God selected a small and a insignificant village in Portugal to make His Holy Mother to appear ?

FATIMA

The relationship there is between dead communism system, and islam sharia

The beloved daughter of Muhammad was FATIMA, and also muslims loves Mary pretty well...more than a jews

=================

Well, you ask : what has this all about ?

I say : even the most standout Christian's church takes anything as granted

=================

As for the dreams, and NDEs ( near-death experiences ) and all that phenomenas are to be taken as granted at the first view

man must ask :

- does that person really exists ?
- how was the life of that person before ?
- what phenomena did he assisted ?
- did that phenomena changed the life of that person ?

This is the main questions

What I say is that I believe in that, and it is possible, IF AND ONLY IF IT satisfies that main questions

I believe that if someone Loves God Truly, with full effort, i.e., if any person of any religion loves Him truly

They will not be dismissed by God

[north_malaysian]

There was a Bosnian student in my university who looks exactly like the Christianity's Jesus (based on on his pics or statues).... many Malaysian students calling him Jesus..:exhausted

It's not considered as Jesus visions right?