God is the best planner of all?

This is something I have never understood.

God is the best planner of all.

Yet God's plans went awry and Mohammad’s revelations had to come along to straighten things out. Later J. Smith’s revelations had to come along and straighten things out again.

Examining that concept leads to the conclusion that God isn’t the best planner.

I would like to see an argument presented (that would stand up to examination) that would show why Mohammad’s visions are more acceptable or believable than Joseph Smith’s.

Why should/would Mohammad be any more believable than Joseph Smith?

Why Muslim instead of Mormon?

Your argument/stance, should promote Islam while showing why the same argument/stance, couldn’t/shouldn’t be applied to accepting Joseph Smith’s teachings.

Why did you choose Islam over Mormonism?

I am looking forward to reading the responses.
JD7

God is the best planner of all.
Yet God's plans went awry and Mohammad’s revelations had to come along to straighten things out. Later J. Smith’s revelations had to come along and straighten things out again.

Click to expand...

I don't think that Islam holds that "his plans went awry and Muhammad's revelations had to come". In Islam we believe that every single leaf that falls from a tree was anticipated, not a grain of sand exists or God knows about it. So he knew exactly what would happen. The previous prophets (peace be upon them) were not a failure. They were prophets (peace be upon him), each send to a specific group of people. Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him) was sent not because plans went wrong, but his coming was planned all along.

I would like to see an argument presented (that would stand up to examination) that would show why Mohammad’s visions are more acceptable or believable than Joseph Smith’s.

Click to expand...

Every prophet was given miracles, so that the people would know he is genuine. The miracles of the prophets (peace be upon him) who were sent to a specific group of people only appealed to them. Healing the sick for example, would convince those that witness it, but is of little convincing powers to us now. That is because we don't witness the miracle. At best we could believe the witnesses. But that isn't very convincing. However that is not an issue, like I said those prophets (peace be upon him) were send to a specific group of people in a specific time. That is what sets Muhammed (peace be upon him) apart from the others. He was send as a prophet to all of mankind. And among the miracles sent to him, one of them (the Qur'an) is still witnessable today. You can no longer witness the people healed by Jesus (peace be upon him) but you can still witness the miraculousness of the Qur'an.

Why Muslim instead of Mormon?

Click to expand...

To be honest I haven't studied Mormonism in depth. I used to be agnostic/atheistic. At one point in my life I started reading the Qur'an, and I converted afterwards because I was convinced by it's miraculous properties.

God knew, when Adam was created he was going to eat from the forbidden tree... God knows... now to say it was a failure of his divine Plan is wrong I suppose

jd7 said:

This is something I have never understood.

God is the best planner of all.

Click to expand...

True, however we as Humans are limited by finite knowledge and can only see a glimpse of what has happened and have no access to what will happen.

Yet God's plans went awry and Mohammad’s revelations had to come along to straighten things out. Later J. Smith’s revelations had to come along and straighten things out again.

Click to expand...

A French Chef plans and cooks a perfect dinner with the Pièce de résistance being Cordon Bleu. No matter how perfect that meal is, there will be at least one chicken that will fail to appreciate the Perfection. J. Smith did not come to correct Muhammad. He was part of the overall plan, although we may never know what part he was/is to play.

Examining that concept leads to the conclusion that God isn’t the best planner.

Click to expand...

Or we are not creators of the universe and can not comprehend the necessary criteria of the perfect plan.

I would like to see an argument presented (that would stand up to examination) that would show why Mohammad’s visions are more acceptable or believable than Joseph Smith’s.

Click to expand...

1. The original wording of Allaah's(swt) words to Muhammad(PBUH) are intact and unchanged and have been repeated unchanged for over 1400 years. We know what was said, not a translation or interpretation of what was said.

2. The times of the revelations to Muhammad were observed and verified by others.

3. Previously unknown facts are found many places in the Qur'an.

4. The words given in the revelations are clear and do not require interpretation by any clergy.

Why should/would Mohammad be any more believable than Joseph Smith?

Click to expand...

The words that were revealed are available to all people and have survived scrutiny for 1400 years.

Why Muslim instead of Mormon?

Click to expand...

There is no indication that the words given to Muhammad(PBUH) were given by a Human.

Your argument/stance, should promote Islam while showing why the same argument/stance, couldn’t/shouldn’t be applied to accepting Joseph Smith’s teachings.

Click to expand...

The book of Mormon was written in a language understood only by J.Smith. It was not available to all of mankind. All that exists is an alleged translation and interpretation.

Why did you choose Islam over Mormonism?

Click to expand...

Tried the rest and finally found the best.

I am looking forward to reading the responses.
JD7

Click to expand...

Nerd said:

God knew, when Adam was created he was going to eat from the forbidden tree... God knows... now to say it was a failure of his divine Plan is wrong I suppose

Click to expand...

Copy paste from my site:
# Free will vs. omniscience of God
The argument goes, if our creator is omniscient; he knew exactly what we would eventually do. He thus created some of us despite knowing very well they 'd fail. Or even more convincing, he made us in such a specific manner and environment that we would inevitably fail. This isn't actually an argument against free will, but rather an argument against the responsibility of our free will. As I illustrated before, predestination does not negate free will and personal input. The argument here isn't that we were created without a choice. The argument here is that we were created with choice despite that our creator knew some of us would end up making the wrong choice! This is very twisted. If predestination doesn't negate free will, it shouldn't negate responsibility either. Just because God knew in advance, doesn't mean it isn't our choice and our responsibility. This is in fact the other side of the shinning free-will coin. Free will comes hand in hand with responsibility, and trying to push responsibility to our creator, is in a way rejecting free will, not denying it. The argument is not saying "I don't have it", but rather saying: "I don't want it".

What about Gods free will?
He creates a universe in 6 days , populates the earth, 2000 years after this the world apart from one man and his family sin so deeply, that he wipes them out and starts again.

It's a bit like making a flatpack from IKEA where you get sent the wrong stuff and then put a screw straight through the chipboard ands end up burning the whole lot. You try to blame IKEA then Realise that you are the Managing Director of IKEA.

It must be a bit taxing on the old Omniscience to get something so big so wrong, unless you planned to get it wrong.

barney said:

What about Gods free will?
He creates a universe in 6 days , populates the earth, 2000 years after this the world apart from one man and his family sin so deeply, that he wipes them out and starts again.

It's a bit like making a flatpack from IKEA where you get sent the wrong stuff and then put a screw straight through the chipboard ands end up burning the whole lot. You try to blame IKEA then Realise that you are the Managing Director of IKEA.

It must be a bit taxing on the old Omniscience to get something so big so wrong, unless you planned to get it wrong.

Click to expand...

We see it as being a case that Allaah(swt) created man with the full intent of being tested and able to love Allaah(swt) by choice and not command. Quite a well designed testing ground as it does test each person to the maximum of his/her abilities.

Woodrow said:

We see it as being a case that Allaah(swt) created man with the full intent of being tested and able to love Allaah(swt) by choice and not command. Quite a well designed testing ground as it does test each person to the maximum of his/her abilities.

Click to expand...

Cheers Woody.
Just to back up to the flood for a sec, God decided not to test those guys, but simply to wipe them out. I'm wondering if all of them simultaniously no longer required testing, what was the point of them?

barney said:

Cheers Woody.
Just to back up to the flood for a sec, God decided not to test those guys, but simply to wipe them out. I'm wondering if all of them simultaniously no longer required testing, what was the point of them?

Click to expand...

If you're talking about the people who Prophet Noah gave glad tidings to and warned, but they persisted in their rejection of the truth, while continuously harrassing the Messenger aswell as torturing his followers, then yes - they would be punished by Allah after their disbelief was clear and established.


Furthermore, they would be an example for the future generations who were to follow a similar path to the disbelievers of old.



Peace.

So...what was the point of them existing? God knew they would sin, he planned for them to sin, he knew they would reject the message, he knew he would destroy them, he knew he would save Noah, he knew they were going to hell.

Bit of a waste of time eh?

barney said:

So...what was the point of them existing? God knew they would sin, he planned for them to sin, he knew they would reject the message, he knew he would destroy them, he knew he would save Noah, he knew they were going to hell.

Bit of a waste of time eh?

Click to expand...

Abdul Fattah said:

Copy paste from my site:

# Free will vs. omniscience of God

The argument goes, if our creator is omniscient; he knew exactly what we would eventually do. He thus created some of us despite knowing very well they 'd fail. Or even more convincing, he made us in such a specific manner and environment that we would inevitably fail. This isn't actually an argument against free will, but rather an argument against the responsibility of our free will. As I illustrated before, predestination does not negate free will and personal input. The argument here isn't that we were created without a choice. The argument here is that we were created with choice despite that our creator knew some of us would end up making the wrong choice! This is very twisted. If predestination doesn't negate free will, it shouldn't negate responsibility either. Just because God knew in advance, doesn't mean it isn't our choice and our responsibility. This is in fact the other side of the shinning free-will coin. Free will comes hand in hand with responsibility, and trying to push responsibility to our creator, is in a way rejecting free will, not denying it. The argument is not saying "I don't have it", but rather saying: "I don't want it".

Click to expand...

http://seemyparadigm.webs.com

- Qatada - said:

If you're talking about the people who Prophet Noah gave glad tidings to and warned, but they persisted in their rejection of the truth, while continuously harrassing the Messenger aswell as torturing his followers, then yes - they would be punished by Allah after their disbelief was clear and established.

Furthermore, they would be an example for the future generations who were to follow a similar path to the disbelievers of old.

Click to expand...

The same can be said for Lot and the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. However, we must remember the story of Jonah who was sent to the wicked people of Nineveh who ended up following Guidance.

Abdul Fattah said:

The argument goes, if our creator is omniscient; he knew exactly what we would eventually do. He thus created some of us despite knowing very well they'd fail. Or even more convincing, he made us in such a specific manner and environment that we would inevitably fail. This isn't actually an argument against free will, but rather an argument against the responsibility of our free will. As I illustrated before, predestination does not negate free will and personal input. The argument here isn't that we were created without a choice. The argument here is that we were created with choice despite that our creator knew some of us would end up making the wrong choice! This is very twisted. If predestination doesn't negate free will, it shouldn't negate responsibility either. Just because God knew in advance, doesn't mean it isn't our choice and our responsibility. This is in fact the other side of the shinning free-will coin. Free will comes hand in hand with responsibility, and trying to push responsibility to our creator, is in a way rejecting free will, not denying it. The argument is not saying "I don't have it", but rather saying: "I don't want it".

Click to expand...

The problem with this is understanding how the creator knows what choices you're going to make.

If you have a genuine free will then you could make different choices given the exact same circumstances. That God knows what you're going to do implies either forcing your hand or some kind of determinism, either way you aren't responsible since you couldn't act otherwise.

jd7 said:

This is something I have never understood.

Click to expand...

aha

God is the best planner of all.

Click to expand...

indeed that is true..

Yet God's plans went awry and Mohammad’s revelations had to come along to straighten things out. Later J. Smith’s revelations had to come along and straighten things out again.

Click to expand...

Perhaps this can be measured against the works they have both produced?
the Quran is inimitable and very distinct from the hadith (the actualy sayings of the prophet) while the book of the Mormon's looks surprisingly like the bible!

Examining that concept leads to the conclusion that God isn’t the best planner.

Click to expand...

I enjoy informal fallacies as much as the next guy, but I don't see how you have examined or inferred logically from what you have presented!

I would like to see an argument presented (that would stand up to examination) that would show why Mohammad’s visions are more acceptable or believable than Joseph Smith’s.

Click to expand...

use the search engine, or try this http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/glossary.html

best to narrow the field than just throw something out there for the reader to decipher what he may?

Why should/would Mohammad be any more believable than Joseph Smith?

Click to expand...

see above

cheers

Azy said:

The problem with this is understanding how the creator knows what choices you're going to make.

If you have a genuine free will then you could make different choices given the exact same circumstances. That God knows what you're going to do implies either forcing your hand or some kind of determinism, either way you aren't responsible since you couldn't act otherwise.

Click to expand...

One thing that defies our human logic is that Allah (swt) is not bound by the dimensions of space and time. Since we are bound by these very constraints, we can't comprehend existence outside of space and time. There is nothing, no matter how big or small and no matter how far into the past or into the future, that escapes the knowledge of Allah (swt). Glory to Allah, the All-Knowing, the All-Hearing, the All-Seeing.

Skye Ephémérine said:

while the book of the Mormon's looks surprisingly like the bible!

Click to expand...

It would appear that the Angels were so impressed with the King James version of the Bible, that they added "And it came to pass" every third sentance into their divine revalations scribed into the vanishing Golden plates.

You gotta give Smithy some credit. The last guy to hit critical mass as a prophet, if you dont count hubbard.
"I've had Divine revalation written in solid physical form....ooops it just vanished...It was here a second ago...Lo! He hath caused it to vanish!...MIGHTY ART HIS WUNDERS!"

He had guts to pull that off in the 1800's in the face of a ever secularising world. True workmanship.

well i guess ya have to look at the bigger picture here. as in humans are the best creation of allah but they are not the only creations of allah.
for us freedom of choice is within the mind.. intent and motive. what happens outside is allahs will. thats why its said we can only wronge our own souls.. with me so far?
so if you hinder someone.. that persons life kinda changes in one way or another but ultimately what happens to that person in the long run might be of benifit to him or her.
as for the ultimate plan well i guess its to do with someone we kinda dont like to mention. the good guys always have a hard time, but the bad guys think there invincible... granted respite should i say. man i oversimplified, but im a simple self righteous so an so.

barney said:

It would appear that the Angels were so impressed with the King James version of the Bible, that they added "And it came to pass" every third sentance into their divine revalations scribed into the vanishing Golden plates.

You gotta give Smithy some credit. The last guy to hit critical mass as a prophet, if you dont count hubbard.
"I've had Divine revalation written in solid physical form....ooops it just vanished...It was here a second ago...Lo! He hath caused it to vanish!...MIGHTY ART HIS WUNDERS!"

He had guts to pull that off in the 1800's in the face of a ever secularising world. True workmanship.

Click to expand...

You should start a sect in sikhism you can be the 11th guru or so? you can ammend a chapter or just nullify the previous work.. There is no shortage of deviants and I know how desperate you are to get your name down in any bible..

cheers

MustafaMc said:

One thing that defies our human logic is that Allah (swt) is not bound by the dimensions of space and time. Since we are bound by these very constraints, we can't comprehend existence outside of space and time. There is nothing, no matter how big or small and no matter how far into the past or into the future, that escapes the knowledge of Allah (swt). Glory to Allah, the All-Knowing, the All-Hearing, the All-Seeing.

Click to expand...

So Allah is beyond logic?

If he knows what is going to happen, regardless of how he is involved, then from his point of view your path is predetermined. Again this is contrary to free will.

Believing that Allah has knowledge of all matters is an attribute of His Perfection, we do not know the future, but we have been given the criterion between truth/falsehood, wrong/right etc. through His revelation. We accept the revelation and strive to do good while avoiding evil - we have a choice in that, we feel it.


Since we do not know the future - that is sufficient for us to strive as much as possible to attain Paradise. Us not knowing our destination is sufficient for us to aim for good. One can argue that God has planned it already, therefore disobeying what He has sent as guidance for us, or another can follow the guidance - hoping for the best. The one who strives for the good will earn it, and that is God's Promise. But the one who turns away and rejects - then they have none to blame except themselves, since they were warned beforehand of the consequences.