Adam and the 60 cubit confusion

[AntiKarateKid]

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Allah created Adam, making him 60 cubits tall. When He created him, He said to him, "Go and greet that group of angels, and listen to their reply, for it will be your greeting (salutation) and the greeting (salutations of your offspring." So, Adam said (to the angels), As-Salamu Alaikum (i.e. Peace be upon you). The angels said, "As-salamu Alaika wa Rahmatu-l-lahi" (i.e. Peace and Allah's Mercy be upon you). Thus the angels added to Adam's salutation the expression, 'Wa Rahmatu-l-lahi,' Any person who will enter Paradise will resemble Adam (in appearance and figure). People have been decreasing in stature since Adam's creation.

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The first group of people who will enter Paradise, will be glittering like the full moon and those who will follow them, will glitter like the most brilliant star in the sky. They will not urinate, relieve nature, spit, or have any nasal secretions. Their combs will be of gold, and their sweat will smell like musk. The aloes-wood will be used in their centers. Their wives will be houris. All of them will look alike and will resemble their father Adam (in statute), sixty cubits tall."

Is 60 cubits a metaphor? Allah has repeatedly revealed that some things in heaven are very large. I view these as metaphors to explain their grandness. We are Allah's greatest creations, higher than the jinn, animals or angels and thus when we are describes as gians, Allah is metaphorically asserting our superiority. Also when it is mentioned that the subsequent generations of humans would be smaller is stature, could it be interpreted that we are not as pious or as great as the sahaba and are smaller in stature. Allah did say that we would grow corrupt near the end of times and this decrease in stature might pertain toa spiritual decrease.

Is this interpretation right? Or the literal one which is expounded on by this scientific article?

TEL AVIV, ISRAEL - At the recent Israeli colloquium on science and religion, Dr. Shlomi Lesser of Hebrew University, and the Chairman of the Hofesh V'Mada Society (a stalwart for deeply skeptical Israeli scientists), led a heated debate between biologists and ultra-orthodox Rabbis on the origins of life. Many of the spectators, including those of a deeply religious stance, came away with the feeling that the Rabbis had not done very well against their "Epicurean" counterparts.

The hi-light of the evening came when Dr. Lesser engaged in a one-on-one question exchange with Rabbi Dovid Brown of Yeshiva University. At one point Dr. Lesser asked R. Brown how tall the first man was, to which the esteemed Rabbi replied "he was roughly the size of an average man according to chazal [Jewish sages]." From there Dr. Lesser revealed that genetic research has revealed that the human race coming from a single pair of parents is impossible in light of the biological bottle-neck [a term for the strain put on successive generations by inbreeding] they would have to travel through.

"Our research, in conjunction with the research of other respected institutions around the world, has demonstrated that the entire human population descending from a single pair of human ancestors is highly unlikely." stated Dr. Lesser. "It would seem that the traditional view of groups, not individuals, evolving has been corroborated; the only way man could descend from a single pair (rather than from an entire group of transitional hominids) is if the original pair were literally giants in the pre-nutrition age."

As Dr. Lesser pointed out, prior to the breakthroughs in nutrition that took place in the 17th and 18th centuries, genetic evidence revealed that man would have been shrinking if he came from a single human ancestor. His calculations revealed that in order for the human race to reach the state it was in during the 17th century, the "Adam and Eve" story would only be plausible if the first man was 90 feet tall (which is fantastic to say the least). "There is no other way man could traverse the genetic bottleneck" Dr. Lesser again said. "If Adam was the size of any other man according to the learned Rabbis of the Jewish religion, this demonstrates an obvious absurdity to this myth."




What do YOU guys think?

[AntiKarateKid]

helooooo?

[Trumble]

No much to comment on really, other than that if mankind did come from a single pair it seems muslims might be right and the Jews wrong about how tall they were.

Beyond that it comes down to which you think is the most likely, that that first pair were '60 cubits' tall or that the 'traditional' view of groups evolving is correct. My money is on the second as being infinitely more credible, but then I'm not a creationist. I really do get the impression that what was being talked about here was a fanciful thought experiment, not a remotely serious suggestion.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
Given this excerpt:

..His calculations revealed that in order for the human race to reach the state it was in during the 17th century, the "Adam and Eve" story would only be plausible if the first man was 90 feet tall (which is fantastic to say the least). "There is no other way man could traverse the genetic bottleneck" Dr. Lesser again said. "If Adam was the size of any other man according to the learned Rabbis of the Jewish religion, this demonstrates an obvious absurdity to this myth."

I would say that it must be true; Adam must have been 60 Cubit in size.

Is there a quranic ayat relating to Adam's size? If so could someone post it and I'll look them up in the 3 translations that I have at home to see what the scholar's interpretations are.

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[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


I think the general rule is that we don't make ta'wil (turning away from the apparent meaning) of the texts, unless it is part of the arabic language or there is other proof from Divine revelation to support another interpretation.


So if one was to say that Adam is 60 cubits tall, then if it is said in the arabic language that '60 cubits' is used to imply 'really big' or its likes, then that may have some basis. However, this arabic phrase can't be something new - but rather, that language (or phrase) should have been used during the life of Allah's Messenger amongst the arabs.

Or, on the other hand - if there is other evidence from the Qur'an or Sunnah to explain that 60 cubits never really meant 60 cubits literally, or there is other evidence to clarify the description further - then we can use that as evidence to come to a conclusion.



However, we cannot merely come up with an opinion without the rules of the above. Since many have done this (i.e. the Philosopher sects like Al-Mu'tazilah, Ashaa'irah etc) for the Qur'an & Sunnah in history, and turned away from the true principles of Islam, such as on the Attributes of Allah, and many other matters which may even render people out of the fold of Islam.

Therefore, it may be true that Adam was 60 cubits tall, unless there is clear, truthful evidence otherwise. And even if we cannot fully understand this description, it does not deny its reality.



And Allah knows best.

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


It's mentioned in Tafsir Ibn Kathir, in Surah Al Baqarah's tafsir;

Adam was very Tall

http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=1684

Ibn Abi Hatim narrated that Ubayy bin Ka`b said that the Messenger of Allah said,

«إِنَّ اللهَ خَلَقَ آدَمَ رَجُلًا طُوَالًا كَثِيرَ شَعْرِ الرَّأْسِ كَأَنَّهُ نَخْلَةٌ سَحُوقٌ، فَلَمَّا ذَاقَ الشَّجَرَةَ سَقَطَ عَنْهُ لِبَاسُهُ فَأَوَّلُ مَا بَدَا مِنْهُ عَوْرَتُهُ، فَلَمَّا نَظَرَ إلى عَوْرتِه جَعَلَ يَشْتَدُّ فِي الْجَنَّةِ فَأَخَذَتْ شَعْرَهُ شَجَرَةٌ فَنَازَعَهَا، فَنَادَاهُ الرَّحْمنُ: يَا آدَمُ مِنِّي تَفِرُّ؟ فَلَمَّا سَمِعَ كَلامَ الرَّحْمنِ قَالَ: يَا رَبِّ لَا ولَكِنِ اسْتِحْيَاء»

(Allah created Adam tall, with thick hair, just as a date tree with full branches. When Adam ate from the forbidden tree, his cover fell off, and the first thing that appeared was his private area. When he saw his private area, he ran away in Paradise and his hair got caught in a tree. He tried to free himself and Ar-Rahman called him, 'O Adam! Are you running away from Me' When Adam heard the words of Ar-Rahman (Allah), he said, 'No, O my Lord! But I am shy.')

[islamirama]

Firstly:

This hadeeth was narrated by Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) who said:

“Allaah created Adam and he was sixty cubits tall. Then He said, ‘Go and greet those angels and listen to how they greet you, for that will be your greeting and the greeting of your progeny.’ He said, ‘Al-salaamu ‘alaykum (Peace be upon you).’ They said, ‘Al-salaamu ‘alaykum wa rahmat-Allaah (Peace be upon you and the mercy of Allaah).’ So they added the words ‘wa rahmat Allaah.’ And everyone who enters Paradise will be in the form of Adam. People kept on growing smaller until now.”

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3336; Muslim, 7092

According to a version narrated by Muslim: “Everyone who enters Paradise will be in the form of Adam who was sixty cubits tall. People kept growing smaller until now.”

With regard to the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), “People kept growing smaller until now,” al-Haafiz ibn Hajar said in Fath al-Baari (6/367): “This means that in every generation people grew shorter than the previous generation, and continued to grow shorter until the time of this ummah, then they stayed like that.”

The Muslim is obliged to believe in every idea for which there is evidence in the Qur’aan or saheeh Sunnah from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Imam al-Shaafa’i (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “I believe in Allaah and in that which came from Allaah in the sense meant by Allaah. I believe in the Messenger of Allaah and in what came from the Messenger of Allaah in the sense meant by the Messenger of Allaah.” See al-Irshaad Sharh Lam’at al-I’tiqaad, p. 89.

So the believer is required to believe with firm faith in everything that we are told by Allaah and by the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), if it is proven to be soundly reported from him (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). He must believe in it with firm faith that leaves no room for the slightest doubt. He must accept it in general and specific terms, whether he understands it or not and whether he finds it strange or not, because not understanding something that is proven in a sound report does not mean that it did not happen. All that means is that he cannot comprehend this particular issue. Allaah has commanded us to believe in everything that He tells us and everything that His Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) tells us. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Only those are the believers who have believed in Allaah and His Messenger, and afterward doubt not but strive with their wealth and their lives for the Cause of Allaah. Those! They are the truthful”

[al-Hujuraat 49:15]

Part of faith is belief in the unseen (al-ghayb). The hadeeth we are discussing here comes under this heading. Allaah praises those who believe in the unseen, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Alif-Laam-Meem. [These letters are one of the miracles of the Qur’aan and none but Allaah (Alone) knows their meanings.]

This is the Book (the Qur’aan), whereof there is no doubt, a guidance to those who are Al-Muttaqoon [the pious believers of Islamic Monotheism who fear Allaah much (abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which He has forbidden) and love Allaah much (perform all kinds of good deeds which He has ordained)].

Who believe in the Ghayb[the unseen]”

[al-Baqarah 2:1-3]

You should note that Allaah is Able to do all things. Just as He is able to create man in the form that he appears in now, He is also Able to create man in a larger or smaller form.

If this is difficult for you to understand, then think of the dwarves that we see, who are child-sized men. If this can happen, then why could the opposite not happen, namely a man being sixty cubits tall? In the history of mankind there have been giants as the archaeologists tell us.

The basic principle here is to accept the absolute power of Allaah and to accept what He tells us and what His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) tell us, and to say what those who are well versed in knowledge say:

“We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord”

[Aal ‘Imraan 3:7 – interpretation of the meaning].

We ask Allaah to show us the truth as true and help us to follow it, and to show us falsehood as false and help us to avoid it.

And Allaah knows best.


Islam Q&A
http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ref=20612&ln=eng

[Andaraawus]

its worth taking a look at Genesis 6:4

[barney]

So Noah would have been about 70 foot tall, which stuffed into his 450 ft Ark with his 65 ft tall wife and possibly his 69 ft tall sons, with over 70 million animals in christian tradition must have been a heck of a sight.

[islamirama]

So Noah would have been about 70 foot tall, which stuffed into his 450 ft Ark with his 65 ft tall wife and possibly his 69 ft tall sons, with over 70 million animals in christian tradition must have been a heck of a sight.

Do you know the time difference between Noah and Adam? also, try studying bottleneck effect while your at it.

[barney]

Yeah, 1300 years, thats why i said 70 foot. :)

[Malaikah]

How much a cubit??

[barney]

varies with period and time, I took the lowest measurement of 1.5 foot, 18inch.

Ohh! BTW, just popped into my head. With hands aproximatly eight feet accross, when adam ate the apple isnt that a bit like a modern day person eating a single grain of sand? Or have trees shrunk too?

And his fig-leaf loincloth? Thats not going to be practical wear if your hips are the size of a canal.

Would a cheeseburger have been a quarterpounder or a 400 pounder? Thats a whole cow in one bite?

[Malaikah]

The fruit was in paradise and all humans will be the size of Adam went they enter paradise, so presumably the fruit was larger than earthly fruit also.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

varies with period and time, I took the lowest measurement of 1.5 foot, 18inch.

Ohh! BTW, just popped into my head. With hands aproximatly eight feet accross, when adam ate the apple isnt that a bit like a modern day person eating a single grain of sand? Or have trees shrunk too?

And his fig-leaf loincloth? Thats not going to be practical wear if your hips are the size of a canal.

Would a cheeseburger have been a quarterpounder or a 400 pounder? Thats a whole cow in one bite?

lol barney i think creation may have shrunk too, ie maybe tree's dont grow as larger and taller as they use to. Fig leafs may not be as big as they use to be, cheeseburgers didnt exist and im sure the cows were bigger too :p


thanks for the laugh ;D

[------]

How much a cubit??

:salamext:

1 cubit = 45.72 centimetres

60 cubits = 27.43200 metres

[islamirama]

:salamext:

1 cubit = 45.72 centimetres

60 cubits = 27.43200 metres

:w:

that's what? 90 feet?

[------]

:salamext:

^ 27.43200 meters = 90 feet

P.S. Google is there for a reason, make use of it :D

[barney]

lol barney i think creation may have shrunk too, ie maybe tree's dont grow as larger and taller as they use to. Fig leafs may not be as big as they use to be, cheeseburgers didnt exist and im sure the cows were bigger too :p

I thought Paradise was the Eden area? Within a stones throw of the Euphrates or similar? Or is that just in the bible?

I was out the back garden the other night Imagining just how big a 90 foot guy would be, its pretty impressive.
His Fists would be the size of my car, his head the size of a fully grown elephant, his teeth like keyboards...ROCK!
Then I was imagining the world he lived in. Trees like skyscrapers, Cats the size of killer whales. its amazing that 6000 years ago the earth must have been awesome!

[- Qatada -]

In Islam, there isn't any mention of Adam being present 6000years ago, although it may say this in the Bible - it isn't mentioned in our texts. Therefore it may have been much longer than this since his time.

And in regard to the garden of Eden, no - that was in the heavens above - which are part of the unseen. This is why Adam and Hawwa [Eve] - came to the earth after the trial they faced, when Allah forgave them.


And Allah knows best.

[AntiKarateKid]

IF you read the hadiths carefully, they ONLY refer to the size in heaven. No where in there do they say that his earthly body as so big. Hence my guess that it is a metaphor or something. In another hadith the Prophet( pbuh) said that there was this tree in heaven so big that would take days for the rider of a horse to even pass.

Other hadiths describe some things in heaven being really big. Following what Qatada said about making sure that the phrase is already used before considering it a metaphor, I think that these instances of giantness serve to communicate the grandeur of humans and their rewards in heaven.

[islamirama]

IF you read the hadiths carefully, they ONLY refer to the size in heaven. No where in there do they say that his earthly body as so big. Hence my guess that it is a metaphor or something. In another hadith the Prophet( pbuh) said that there was this tree in heaven so big that would take days for the rider of a horse to even pass.

Other hadiths describe some things in heaven being really big. Following what Qatada said about making sure that the phrase is already used before considering it a metaphor, I think that these instances of giantness serve to communicate the grandeur of humans and their rewards in heaven.

Adam a.s. was created 60 cubits, he didn't shrink to a tiny man when he fell on earth. There is no "metaphor" in here bro. Read bottleneck theory, it states when a species inbreed then over time it will shrink in size.

I thought Paradise was the Eden area? Within a stones throw of the Euphrates or similar? Or is that just in the bible?

I was out the back garden the other night Imagining just how big a 90 foot guy would be, its pretty impressive.
His Fists would be the size of my car, his head the size of a fully grown elephant, his teeth like keyboards...ROCK!
Then I was imagining the world he lived in. Trees like skyscrapers, Cats the size of killer whales. its amazing that 6000 years ago the earth must have been awesome!

Barney, you ever played Supermario 3? remember the levels in "giant land".

I don't see why you are so surprised about this fact. Look at mother nature, it gives enough proof of what was in the past to know better. We are afraid of dinosaurs and how big they were compared to us, well to early humans they could very much have been their domestic animals.

Take a look at this giant trees, we are insects compared to these but they fit quite well in a world where humans are 90 feet tall.

http://www.nzbirding.co.nz/uploads/6...E_BUTTRESS.jpg

http://copypast.ru/foto2/00356/giant_trees_02.jpg
http://www.about-sanfranciscoca.com/...ge_00025_1.jpg
http://www.hotel-tilawa.com/costa-ri...giant_tree.jpg

http://www.wildernesscommittee.org/c...aton_creek.jpg
3 to 4 metres in diameter towering 80 to 95 meters high--taller than 25-storey-high buildings


http://www.wildernesscommittee.org/c...mple_giant.jpg
11.5 feet diameter and 300 feet tall

[Azy]

I wonder why noone has ever found a human skeleton over 9ft tall, or indeed any at all from the time of the dinosaurs.

[------]

:salamext:

^ I wonder why people rely on physical evidence.

[- Qatada -]

We know the issue is a matter of belief anyways, so even if it isn't proven - we accept it like everything else. :)


And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding. [Qur'an 3:7]

[Whatsthepoint]

Is it even possible for a humanlike being to be that tall and heavy? Can a human body increased in size to such an extent work properly, stand straight etc? Insects bigger than a couple of inches wouldn't be able to support the weight of their body for instance.

[barney]

It would be possible, but indeed the cows and trees and evrything would need to be the same or similar pro-rata. Otherwise a daily intake would be a whole herd of cows or goats, and its not sustainable.

If Adam was only 90ft in heaven and shrank down when he hit earth, despite the original book saying it was on earth, then theres no problem. Other than what the jimminy is the point of all that? Big guy shrinking down along with everything else and leaving no evidence behind at all.
Its a high hoop, but it's jumpable.

[Whatsthepoint]

It would be possible, but indeed the cows and trees and evrything would need to be the same or similar pro-rata. Otherwise a daily intake would be a whole herd of cows or goats, and its not sustainable.

Exactly, including insects, which is impossible due to their body construction.

I don't know, I'm not sure a human body that size could function properly, the human body is adapted to a height up to 2/2,5 metres. Unless Adam was significantly different than the modern day human, I don't think he was able to live normally and survive. Imagine a brain 10 times bigger than ours; if nothing else it would function more slowly. Or the kidneys..
Not to mention the environmental challenges a body that size would have to face. for instance, if Adam had raised his ahnd, it would have taken over 2 seconds to return to its original position, taking into account that gravity was teh same back then.

[------]

:salamext:

I'm not sure a human body that size could function properly, the human body is adapted to a height up to 2/2,5 metres.

I'm sorry, I didn't know you considered urself as God! Excuse my ignorance!

[Whatsthepoint]

:salamext:



I'm sorry, I didn't know you considered urself as God! Excuse my ignorance!

lol..

[barney]

I'm assuming this shrinkage over time has been reserched and "confirmed" by Scholars.
I cant find any references.

It's looking like Adam as a ninety footer is logically and scientificaly unstainable.

[islamirama]

I'm assuming this shrinkage over time has been reserched and "confirmed" by Scholars.
I cant find any references.

It's looking like Adam as a ninety footer is logically and scientificaly unstainable.

What is science but human's own theories? theories that become bit more proven become facts while other's are nothing but "guesses". Do you know that the theory of evoultion has not been proven and yet it is thought as a "fact" in the education system?

Anyways, don't rely on the science a bit too much, they have been wrong and had to go back and fix their "facts" before. Science is only as good as the knowledge humans have today.

Islam on other hand has stood test of time for 1400yrs. Even though it is a religion, it is still more credible and years ahead of science.

Anyways, it may seem unstainable currently and that maybe true but we are talking about ages ago. "logically speaking" dinosaurs and other giant animals would be also unstainable due to their large size. But then again it's unstaniability is a human's guess based on the little science advancement he has made. Give it another 50yrs and scientist will star saying something.

As for shrinkage being research. I did come across an article few years back. Try googling bottleneck effect, humans, science and jews.

[Whatsthepoint]

As for shrinkage being research. I did come across an article few years back. Try googling bottleneck effect, humans, science and jews.

You mean this

TEL AVIV, ISRAEL - At the recent Israeli colloquium on science and religion, Dr. Shlomi Lesser of Hebrew University, and the Chairman of the Hofesh V'Mada Society (a stalwart for deeply skeptical Israeli scientists), led a heated debate between biologists and ultra-orthodox Rabbis on the origins of life. Many of the spectators, including those of a deeply religious stance, came away with the feeling that the Rabbis had not done very well against their "Epicurean" counterparts.

The hi-light of the evening came when Dr. Lesser engaged in a one-on-one question exchange with Rabbi Dovid Brown of Yeshiva University. At one point Dr. Lesser asked R. Brown how tall the first man was, to which the esteemed Rabbi replied "he was roughly the size of an average man according to chazal [Jewish sages]." From there Dr. Lesser revealed that genetic research has revealed that the human race coming from a single pair of parents is impossible in light of the biological bottle-neck [a term for the strain put on successive generations by inbreeding] they would have to travel through.

"Our research, in conjunction with the research of other respected institutions around the world, has demonstrated that the entire human population descending from a single pair of human ancestors is highly unlikely." stated Dr. Lesser. "It would seem that the traditional view of groups, not individuals, evolving has been corroborated; the only way man could descend from a single pair (rather than from an entire group of transitional hominids) is if the original pair were literally giants in the pre-nutrition age."

As Dr. Lesser pointed out, prior to the breakthroughs in nutrition that took place in the 17th and 18th centuries, genetic evidence revealed that man would have been shrinking if he came from a single human ancestor. His calculations revealed that in order for the human race to reach the state it was in during the 17th century, the "Adam and Eve" story would only be plausible if the first man was 90 feet tall (which is fantastic to say the least). "There is no other way man could traverse the genetic bottleneck" Dr. Lesser again said. "If Adam was the size of any other man according to the learned Rabbis of the Jewish religion, this demonstrates an obvious absurdity to this myth."

I think this is yet another islamic science hoax.

[------]

:salamext:

^ Sorry? A what?

[Whatsthepoint]

:salamext:

^ Sorry? A what?

A hoax - something intended to deceive; deliberate trickery intended to gain an advantage

[islamirama]

You mean this

I think this is yet another islamic science hoax.

yea that one. i think islam or muslims had nothing to do with that get together. So, how is it an "islamic science" hoax? any evidence on that? 2ndly, what's the source of that article?

[Whatsthepoint]

yea that one. i think islam or muslims had nothing to do with that get together. So, how is it an "islamic science" hoax? any evidence on that? 2ndly, what's the source of that article?

Well, it can only be traced to islamic sites. Besides there's no information about Hofesh V'Mada and Shlomi Lesser to be found on the net, apart from the article.
the article does not elaborate on the calculation Dr Lesser supposedly made, I can't think of any way how anyone could calculate the height of a man to such precision without knowing where, when, how etc he lived. He didn't use scintific data, as there's no evidence of there being a single first man, nor the place and time he lived. And he can't have used jewish data about Adam living 6000 years ago. If he did use it, his findings are false, as it is a well known fact that there were much smaller humans around more than 6000 ago.

[islamirama]

Well, it can only be traced to islamic sites. Besides there's no information about Hofesh V'Mada and Shlomi Lesser to be found on the net, apart from the article.
the article does not elaborate on the calculation Dr Lesser supposedly made, I can't think of any way how anyone could calculate the height of a man to such precision without knowing where, when, how etc he lived. He didn't use scintific data, as there's no evidence of there being a single first man, nor the place and time he lived. And he can't have used jewish data about Adam living 6000 years ago. If he did use it, his findings are false, as it is a well known fact that there were much smaller humans around more than 6000 ago.

Like i said, do you have the sources? I'm not sure if i found it on islamic or secular site few years back. In either case, you'll have to excuse me if i believe my Quran than some human scientist with miserly studying of 10yrs to tell me that we came from monkeys. He can be a monkey's uncle all he wants.

[Whatsthepoint]

Like i said, do you have the sources? I'm not sure if i found it on islamic or secular site few years back. In either case, you'll have to excuse me if i believe my Quran than some human scientist with miserly studying of 10yrs to tell me that we came from monkeys. He can be a monkey's uncle all he wants.

I'm not saying you can't believe what you believe, I'm just saying I'm not buying it.

btw: what sources exactly do you expect me to find? It's you who claims the article and the scientists are genuine and you're supposed to prove it. All I can say is that today the article can be found on islamic sites and sites refuting islamic sites.

[islamirama]

I'm not saying you can't believe what you believe, I'm just saying I'm not buying it.

btw: what sources exactly do you expect me to find? It's you who claims the article and the scientists are genuine and you're supposed to prove it. All I can say is that today the article can be found on islamic sites and sites refuting islamic sites.

I just said that i found such an article on the topic few years back. Anyways, what i believe is what i believe and same goes for you. My belief has stood test of time for 1400yrs and so it helps me to know the facts where as you will have just wait till the scientists get smart enough to shed some light on this (if they ever stop being monkey's uncle :D )

[Whatsthepoint]

I just said that i found such an article on the topic few years back. Anyways, what i believe is what i believe and same goes for you. My belief has stood test of time for 1400yrs and so it helps me to know the facts where as you will have just wait till the scientists get smart enough to shed some light on this (if they ever stop being monkey's uncle :D )

Well, there is not a major religion in the world whose adhearents will admit that their books are flawed in any way. I for one don't think any religious text is flawless including the Quran.
This topic is about Adam being 90 feet tall and I seriously doubt that a humanlike being could be 90 feet tall and survive, for the reasons I sated previously.
So, this is one of the reasons I remain an agnostic.

[- Qatada -]

If dinosaurs were huge back in the days, then i wouldn't be surprised if humans survived in a similar enironment.


Anyway guys, remember that absence of proof is not proof of absence :)

[aadil77]

Well, there is not a major religion in the world whose adhearents will admit that their books are flawed in any way. I for one don't think any religious text is flawless including the Quran.
This topic is about Adam being 90 feet tall and I seriously doubt that a humanlike being could be 90 feet tall and survive, for the reasons I sated previously.
So, this is one of the reasons I remain an agnostic.

Why not? And survive for how long? Just imagine it a walking giant, able to take cover in giant trees, could eat giant crops, travel to places in a couple of leaps to get things needed etc. Also it must be cool being able to get to places in a fraction of time :D

i'm sure that the average lifetime in that era was a couple hundred years

[islamirama]

I can't imagine humans being 7 feet tall. That is just not possible, it's unstainable i tell ya!
-says one 3ft midgyet to another....

What! My ancestors were that huge and ruled the earth? Impossible!!
-says one lizard to the other....

[Whatsthepoint]

I can't imagine humans being 7 feet tall. That is just not possible, it's unstainable i tell ya!
-says one 3ft midgyet to another....

It's not at all that simple..

[islamirama]

It's not at all that simple..

Sometimes it is as simple as that. This earth is big enough to have giant lizards roaming it then it's big enough to have giant humans walking it. Those 300ft trees aren't there for a show. You want to believe in evolution, then this is the real evolution. Humans evolving according to their needs over long long period of times.

[truemuslim]

lol
NOBODY try.
this pointless guy is pointless... ahmedjunior knos lool
itsa waste of time he will go in circles over and over and over as if he has never been on a merry go round........if u havent then try it..it aint fun...
Wasalaam
:)

[Whatsthepoint]

Sometimes it is as simple as that. This earth is big enough to have giant lizards roaming it then it's big enough to have giant humans walking it. Those 300ft trees aren't there for a show. You want to believe in evolution, then this is the real evolution. Humans evolving according to their needs over long long period of times.

Well, it's not that simple in this case.
And this has nothing to do with evolution, except for the part that muslims believe humans shrinked somehow troughout history..
Dinousaurs and giant trees are designed to be that big, a human being is not. Unless Adam was anatomically significantly different from the modern day human he can't have been 90 feet tall. So technically, if you believe Adam was 60 cubits tall, you must also acknowledge evolution, God led evolution if you will.

[------]

:salamext:

Can i have the pleasure to say:

:threadclo ?

[truemuslim]

:salamext:

Can i have the pleasure to say:

:threadclo ?

hold on let em bang heads a bit. its sorta fun watching ...gets u dizzy but still......lol :D

[Azy]

Even people who are 7/8 feet tall have real trouble with back and joint pains because of the increased pressure. The materials are the same as in an average size person but would have to cope with much greater forces, as a result of leverage on long limbs and compression of the spine and joints.

The largest dinosaur was roughly 75 feet long and 40 feet tall, weighing 80 tons.
A bipedal man who was bigger than this would probably crush his own bones under the weight or have limbs so heavy he could hardly move.

Calculations on animal size

[barney]

The largest dinosaur was roughly 75 feet long and 40 feet tall, weighing 80 tons.
Calculations on animal size

Hush! I was having a good vision of Adam riding on the back of a Brontosaurus like it was a pony, now youve gone and spoiled it. :(

And Actually I think you'll find that if you measure Barney the dinosaur, he is only about 7 ft tall in his suit, and he sings and dances and dosnt suffer from this "back pain" despite having a man inside the suit. So that totally blows your point out of the water.

[Azy]

I'm sure when he was a boy he rode them like ponies :)

Barney and Denver should form some sort of prehistoric Steps and go on tour.