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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
05-19-2008, 08:44 PM
:sl:

Ok well umm don't how to put this but what do guys(if any), know about Transgenic? Like what would Islams stance be on this? Incase you don't know, Transgenic is the passing of a gene or genes in either a plant or animal. Transgenic plants result from experiments that have been genetically engineered. In these experiments, genetic material is passed from one organism to the next, resulting in a desired characteristic. It allows genetic material to be transfered to organisms that are not closely related. Is there any mention of this, does anyone know? Thanks in advance :D
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
05-19-2008, 11:43 PM
Lol I had no idea this was that hard xD It's ok, I'm almost done with my paper anyway :p
I should have mentioned that this is used mostly for crops, so that they are resistant to heat, cold, drought or pesticides or if they want to clone plants... something like that.

:sl:
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MustafaMc
05-20-2008, 12:32 AM
Actually, I am the perfect person for this question, Masha'Allah. I work for a large agricultural chemical company that has recently invested in biotechnology. My company markets transgenic cotton that expresses a gene that originated from a bacteria - Bacillus thuringensis - that produces a toxin that kills specific insects. Traditionally growers spray chemicals to kill the insect pests that reduce yield, but now they can buy seed that produces plants that are resistant to some pests. The problem is that the transgenic trait is insect-specific and the farmer still has to spray for other insects, but much less than before.

I am a cotton breeder that develops new cotton varieties by traditional biological means. I estimate that 90% of my effort is on conventional material that is not transgenic. After we develop a superior new line, we then cross breed the transgenic trait into it from existing cotton plants. The transgenic genetic engineering is done only once and thereafter it is bred naturally.
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MustafaMc
05-20-2008, 01:10 AM
Regarding, the ethical question that I think you have implied, I don't see the harm in genetic engineering, but I do see the benefit.

Did you also know that bacteria have been genetically engineered to express the human insulin gene and therefore insulin for diabetics?

Now get this, quoted below is an example of chemical alteration not genetic engineering, but how would you like to get the insulin diabetics inject from a PIG?


However another company has developed a method of converting pig insulin into human insulin by chemically changing a few amino acids, and this turns out to be cheaper than the genetic engineering methods. This all goes to show that genetic engineers still have a lot to learn.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
05-20-2008, 01:22 AM
:sl:

Wow MashaAllah, I'm glad someone was able to answer my question. Yea after I read more on this topic, I came to the conclusion that it isn't too bad. But as I was reading, some articles mentioned that it had some disadvantages and that some genetically engineered plants aren't safe. What's your take on that? Supposedly its unsafe for the ecosystem and humans, health wise.

My company markets transgenic cotton that expresses a gene that originated from a bacteria - Bacillus thuringensis - that produces a toxin that kills specific insects. Traditionally growers spray chemicals to kill the insect pests that reduce yield, but now they can buy seed that produces plants that are resistant to some pests. The problem is that the transgenic trait is insect-specific and the farmer still has to spray for other insects, but much less than before.
I thought that was pretty interesting. I actually learned about Bacillus thuringensis this semester.

Originally Posted by MustafaMc
However another company has developed a method of converting pig insulin into human insulin by chemically changing a few amino acids, and this turns out to be cheaper than the genetic engineering methods. This all goes to show that genetic engineers still have a lot to learn.
I think that's a good idea :D I don't want insulin from a pig, I'm guessing we can't?
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Malaikah
05-20-2008, 08:00 AM
:sl:

I personally can't see why it would be haram (that's isn't a fatwa), but what's so haram about it? :?
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MustafaMc
05-20-2008, 11:08 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
:sl:

I personally can't see why it would be haram (that's isn't a fatwa), but what's so haram about it? :?
Neither do I, but perhaps some would see that it is against nature to take a gene from one species (bacteria or human) and to adapt the gene such that a totally different species (cotton plant or bacteria, respectively) could express the gene and translate it into a protein that is foreign to that species and that this would never arise through natural processes. Some may see it as "playing God" and creating something that was not intended.

My personal view is that our knowledge, abilities, and inventions come but from Allah. Hence, when I identify a superior new cotton variety from crosses and plant selections that I have made, I shouldn't take credit and boast, "Look at what I did" rather I should say, "Masha'Allah, Allah has willed it to be". Can I do anything that is not the Will of Allah for it to happen? If it is good and my intention was good, then I believe I will be rewarded. If it is ultimately bad, but my intention was still good, I believe that I will still be rewarded.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
05-20-2008, 05:39 PM
I'm not saying it's haram, I just wanted to be sure. Therefore I asked. Like I said, as I read into it, it seemed ok to me. I'm just referring to articles I read, speaking a bit against it.

:sl:
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MustafaMc
05-21-2008, 04:16 AM
Originally Posted by Jazzy
I'm not saying it's haram, I just wanted to be sure. Therefore I asked. Like I said, as I read into it, it seemed ok to me. I'm just referring to articles I read, speaking a bit against it.

:sl:
Sorry for the misunderstanding, but I did not mean to imply that you thought it was haram. I was just giving my perspective from the inside.

I would be glad to address concerns that you may have about genetic engineering. What did the articles say about biotech?
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Nerd
05-21-2008, 08:49 AM
I guess the issue would rise, when the genes used to manufacture the transgenic plant is derived from a haram source, especially if the plant product would be marketed for Muslim consumption.

As general criterion for any food to be consumed must be halal and of good quality.

So in the case of Genetically Modified food, as long as it meets these two criteria then it may be consumed.
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Nerd
05-21-2008, 08:54 AM
There are concerns over this sort of technology:

1. Genetically engineered bacteria would escape from the laboratory into the environment
2. possibly creating new diseases
3. spreading old diseases in a more virulent manner
4. creation of imbalance in the ecosystem that might lead to decimation of some species

However Laying out guidelines for different levels of bio-safety containment depending on the inherent dangers of the experimental systems used can minimize the above stated concerns.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
05-21-2008, 02:46 PM
^^Yea that's basically what I've been reading about bro Mustafa. Hence, why I started the thread and asked :) So really I came across both sides.
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barney
05-21-2008, 03:04 PM
How far are we off creating these?
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Nerd
05-21-2008, 03:06 PM
Originally Posted by barney
How far are we off creating these?
lol! Pretty far I suppose :D
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Malaikah
05-31-2008, 01:59 PM
Originally Posted by Nerd
I guess the issue would rise, when the genes used to manufacture the transgenic plant is derived from a haram source, especially if the plant product would be marketed for Muslim consumption.
Wow, I never thought about that! But I suppose only a small number of cells (like the seed I guess?) will have the potential haram gene in it, and then when it grows it will be totally diluted out (i.e. the gene almost all cells ill be composed of different atoms to the one making up the original gene), and so it shouldn't be an issue.

Allah knows best...
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Nerd
05-31-2008, 02:14 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
Wow, I never thought about that! But I suppose only a small number of cells (like the seed I guess?) will have the potential haram gene in it, and then when it grows it will be totally diluted out (i.e. the gene almost all cells ill be composed of different atoms to the one making up the original gene), and so it shouldn't be an issue.

Allah knows best...
The purpose of inserting a gene; from organism to another is so that this gene would be expressed within the transgenic organism.
If a gene from a pig/an animal that wasn't slaughtered within the prescribed guidelines of Islam is incorporated into a plant/animal/microorganism (Hypothetically), the question of whether the product is Halal/Haram would inevitably rise.

If we take into account the fact, Muslims do not use lard from the pig since its meat is haram- how can we say it's halal to use gene's from a pig? than again this is a scholarly debate

Allah Knows the best
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Malaikah
06-01-2008, 05:26 AM
I already explained because the original gene from the haram source would be diluted out... Any subsequent genes from the rest of the cells will be made from atoms other than the atoms that came from the pig/haram source... we aren't forbidden from eating something that contained 0.00001% of haram in it.

I'm not saying that it is halal for sure, but it is a possibility that it might be.
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Nerd
06-01-2008, 05:38 AM
^As I have mentioned earlier, the basic criteria: for any food to be consumed by a Muslim is that it must be halal and of good quality.

The very fact is, the same gene (derived from Haram source) will be replicated over and over again. Even if its other atoms. The gene in essence is the same. I didn't make a ruling that it would be Haram. But it is certainly an area that, Islamic scholars need to look into.
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Malaikah
06-01-2008, 09:19 AM
That is assuming that the gene in an of itself is haram.
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MustafaMc
06-01-2008, 11:42 AM
Technically, only the original DNA segment for the gene of interest from the original donor organism would be 100% derived from that organism. In genetic engineering they even change the nucleic acid sequences to adapt them to the target organism. For example, there are some sequences of 3 nucleic acids (codon) that code for 1 amino acid in plants, but code for a different one in animals. Therefore, the same DNA sequence would yield a different polypeptide (protein) in animals than it would in plants. The DNA sequence must be changed to make it "plant-like".

Malaikah is correct that the original haram DNA seqment of interest would be so changed as to not be recognizable as being from a haram source. Howver, the end result would be that the resulting protein would bear a strong resemblance to the protein in the donor species. I am certainly not one to say if it is haram, halal, or makruh, but this should be addressed by scholars knowledgeable of biotechnology.

If you look backwards, you will find this quote I took from the internet: However another company has developed a method of converting pig insulin into human insulin by chemically changing a few amino acids, and this turns out to be cheaper than the genetic engineering methods. This all goes to show that genetic engineers still have a lot to learn. This example of chemical modification certainly seems haram to me.
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