Does God have a body?

[Nerd]

In Christianity, there are references that God has created man in his own image.

Do Muslims hold the same belief? Does God indeed has a body?

[Nerd]

It is said that on the day of Judgment, humanity in its entirety would be assembled on the judgment grounds and while they are awaiting their verdict (eternal bliss or ****ation) they are subjected to the immense heat of a sun which is placed strategically over their heads, barely making contact. Those who were pious throughout their lives would be assembled closer to the divine throne, which would shade them from the blistering sun just a few inches away from the exposed heads. we are told that God has a throne. If He has to have a throne, its natural that we assume He sits on it. By doing that, we also have to assume He has a posterior. To further add more detail to this, the prophet Muhammad Peace Be Upon him accounts sitting right next to God during his ascension into Heaven while he was still alive.

Now let me make it perfectly clear… I don’t have anything against the Almighty, and my most fundamental belief is that He exists, and he retains ultimate power (omnipotence, omnipresence and omniscience) over existence and beyond. I just have a lot of qualms with religion and these silly arguments arise from my deepest desire to resolve them. :)

[------]

:salamext:

I fail to understand why people delve so deeply into matters, when they need to worry about themselves and their sins a lot more.

[Umar001]

In Christianity, there are references that God has created man in his own image.

Do Muslims hold the same belief? Does God indeed has a body?

God created Adam in his image. Meaning Adam's image, meaning Adam did not have to grow into Adam the man, he was born like that, if I remember correctly there are differences on the interpretation though.

Second, what do you mean body?

No, I don't think so. A 'body' is a physical thing with physical limitations in size, shape, presence, etc. God is more like a 'force' or a power; not an old man with a long white beard.

What makes you think God is more like a force or power?

It is said that on the day of Judgment, humanity in its entirety would be assembled on the judgment grounds and while they are awaiting their verdict (eternal bliss or ****ation) they are subjected to the immense heat of a sun which is placed strategically over their heads, barely making contact. Those who were pious throughout their lives would be assembled closer to the divine throne, which would shade them from the blistering sun just a few inches away from the exposed heads. we are told that God has a throne. If He has to have a throne, its natural that we assume He sits on it. By doing that, we also have to assume He has a posterior. To further add more detail to this, the prophet Muhammad Peace Be Upon him accounts sitting right next to God during his ascension into Heaven while he was still alive.

A person once said to me, don't assume because you make an ASSoutofUandME, get it? Assume. Anyhow, you literally have made an ASS out of your asumption. 'we also have to assume He has a posterior.' In Islam there are principles in speaking about Almighty God's names and attributes. A scholar, of recent times, mentions one principle in his explanation of an older book:

The Second Principle Concerning Allaah's names:

The Third Subdivision: The Names of Allaah are not affirmed by the intellect - they can only be affirmed by Revelation

The Names of Allaah are based upon Revelation and as such, their affirmation is dependent upon what is reported in the revealed texts concerning them. Therefore, nothing can be aded to them nor subtracted. This is because the intellect is not able to ascertain by itself which names Allaah is most deserving of. So it is obligatory to depend upon the revealed texts for determining that. Also, naming Allaah with that which He did not name Himself or rejecting what He did name Himself with, is a crime against Him and a perpetration of His right. Thus abiding by the proper etiquettes with regard to that is obligatory.

The Explanation of Sufficiency in Creed.

It's not for us to say, if Allaah has a hand then we must assume he has 5 fingers. SubhanAllah! Allaah has a throne, he rose over it as He says, that is known, how it is done we dont know and we dont need to ask. With regards as to Almighty God having a body, maybe someone can post from Uthaymeen's explanatin of Ayatul Kursi if I am not mistaken it speaks on that?

Listen to stuff from here:

http://understand-islam.net/audio/an...+Correct+Creed

Maybe this will help:

03- The Correct Creed - Attributes


And this series

http://understand-islam.net/audio/an...eautiful+Names

This thread will probably get closed, people should not please just type 'I think x.y.z' please.

And Allah knows best.

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[mehnaz]

Assalamolaikum

i'm sure tht if Allah swt wanted us to knw wat he looked like he would have revealed it unto the prophet SAW....but since tht hasnt happened i think we shud not try to make up our own imaginations...

W'salaam

[Nerd]

Second, what do you mean body?

Body as any embodiment (or character) that reminisces with anything in creation.

A person once said to me, don't assume because you make an ASSoutofUandME, get it? Assume. Anyhow, you literally have made an ASS out of your asumption. 'we also have to assume He has a posterior.'

Point taken Al Habeshi. I should state here the assumptions are based on religious dogmas (not subjecting their veracity).

[Malaikah]

It is not permissible for us to say anything about Allah other than what He has said of Himself. To say that Allah has physical form is wrong and sinful as far as I know.

If He has to have a throne, its natural that we assume He sits on it. By doing that, we also have to assume He has a posterior.

There is absolutely, 100% nothing natural about this assumption! It goes totally beyond the bounds of what is permitted in Islam.

[Nerd]

It is not permissible for us to say anything about Allah other than what He has said of Himself. To say that Allah has physical form is wrong and sinful as far as I know.

Could you back your argument from the Quran or Hadeeth of Prophet Peace Be Upon Him? So that we can stop this discussion and save ourselves from a grave sin

[Nerd]

God created Adam in his image. Meaning Adam's image, meaning Adam did not have to grow into Adam the man, he was born like that, if I remember correctly there are differences on the interpretation though.

Here is the passage I was referring to:

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth." (Genesis 1:26-28)

[Nerd]

There is absolutely, 100% nothing natural about this assumption!

"No matter that we may mount on stilts, we still must walk on our own legs. And on the highest throne in the world, we still sit only on our own ---" - Michel de Montaigne

[glo]

I have never understood the sentence 'being made in God's image' to mean that humans physically look like God, or indeed that God has a physical body ...

It may help us as human beings to think of God in somewhat human terms (i.e. he is a 'father', he sits on a throne, he holds us in his hand ...) - but that doesn't mean this is literally the case. It is merely a way for us humans to grasp the enormity of God within the limitations of our human mind.

Peace

[Umar001]

Body as any embodiment (or character) that reminisces with anything in creation.

Bro, let me tell you the main problem here.

We are all speaking English, all Islamic sources are in arabic, as far as I know, so we need someone fluent enough to translate. Fluency is not the only requirement though, the translator should also have enough knowledge of the topic so as to translate properly.

We hardly have an fluent arabic and english speakers here. From them we, I guess, hardly have any students of knowledge, and no scholars.

You see the problem now, for example, body may not be what is said in the sources in Arabic. Look at this,

YUSUFALI: And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

Now, this verse claims that Jesus is saying he does not know what is in Allah's heart! Does Allah have a heart?

PICKTHAL: And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden?

The same verse, the translator writes, that Allah has a mind, does Allah have a mind?

And these are people who knew arabic and english better than me. They were translating the word, NAFS. So you see, translation alone is a problem. Even if we did not have this problem though it would be still difficult due to the fact that we dont have scholars or senior students of knowledge here, as far as I know.

So unless someone can find a scholarly, trustworthy book on this and clearly on this topic, then it may be better to remain silent.

Could you back your argument from the Quran or Hadeeth of Prophet Peace Be Upon Him? So that we can stop this discussion and save ourselves from a grave sin

Is not as simple as saying a verse, or hadith, one should know its context is conditions and so forth.

Here is the passage I was referring to:

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth." (Genesis 1:26-28)

I don't think this is authoritative for a Muslim though, I mean, the Bible also says that God has a son. But what I was refering to was I think a hadith, those of you who listen to Anwar Al Awlaki should know it, it is in the story of the Prophets, Adam. I think.

EDIT: By the way, noone should think I am insulting the translators, SubhanAllah! I just mentioned that as it was a point brought up in a lecture by Abdur Rauf Shakir if I am not mistaken, in the explanation of Sufficiency Creed.

And Allah knows best.

[Nerd]

Bro, let me tell you the main problem here.

We are all speaking English, all Islamic sources are in arabic, as far as I know, so we need someone fluent enough to translate. Fluency is not the only requirement though, the translator should also have enough knowledge of the topic so as to translate properly.

We hardly have an fluent arabic and english speakers here. From them we, I guess, hardly have any students of knowledge, and no scholars......

So unless someone can find a scholarly, trustworthy book on this and clearly on this topic, then it may be better to remain silent.

I understand, that important details can be lost in translation.

Is not as simple as saying a verse, or hadith, one should know its context is conditions and so forth.

I asked for a verse or a hadith that could prove to say "that Allah has physical form is wrong and sinful as far as I know"

[------]

^ Not like you believe in it, so why the insistence? :-\

[Nerd]

^ Not like you believe in it, so why the insistence? :-\

:) Where have I stated I do not believe in Quran or the Hadith? The question is derived from descriptions made in the Quran and the Hadith

[Khaldun]

:sl:

To answer your question, Allah does not have a body. The very fact that you think of a body means that you can associate it with something you have seen or heared before, and Allah says in the holy Quran 'And there is nothing like Him and He is the All-Hearing All-Seeing'

It is part of tawheed to believe in the attributes of Allah, and as muslims we affirm that which Allah has affirmed for Himself in the Quran or on the tongue of His Messenger without destorting the meaning.

There is nothing in the Quran or Sunnah stating that Allah has a body, and thus we should not delve into this issue.

And this is why Imaam Abu Ja'far Al-Tahawi said in his famous work 'Aqeeda-tu-Tahawi'

"Anyone who describes Allah as being in any way the same as a human being has become an unbeliever. All those who grasp this will take heed and refrain from saying things such as the unbelievers say, and they will know that He, in His Attributes, is not like human beings."

[YusufNoor]

In Christianity, there are references that God has created man in his own image.

Do Muslims hold the same belief? Does God indeed has a body?

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

do add to what Brother Khaldun posted, you will notice ayats in the Qur'an that say:

Auuthu Billahi Minashaytanir Rajim,
Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem,

# [2.32] They said: Glory be to Thee! we have no knowledge but that which Thou hast taught us; surely Thou art the Knowing, the Wise.

thus, if we haven't been taught it, we don't have the knowledge;

[3.66] Behold! you are they who disputed about that of which you had knowledge; why then do you dispute about that of which you have no knowledge? And Allah knows while you do not know.

that follows a similar vein..

# [6.148] Those who are polytheists will say: If Allah had pleased we would not have associated (aught with Him) nor our fathers, nor would we have forbidden (to ourselves) anything; even so did those before them reject until they tasted Our punishment. Say: Have you any knowledge with you so you should bring it forth to us? You only follow a conjecture and you only tell lies.

thus, speaking without knowledge is akin to lying

[17.36] And follow not that of which you have not the knowledge; surely the hearing and the sight and the heart, all of these, shall be questioned about that.

same thing, if you don't have the knowledge

[18.5] They have no knowledge of it, nor had their fathers; a grievous word it is that comes out of their mouths; they speak nothing but a lie.

[24.15] When you received it with your tongues and spoke with your mouths what you had no knowledge of, and you deemed it an easy matter while with Allah it was grievous

those come from a searchable Qu'ran:
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/koran/

so we limit ourselves to what we have been specifically told about Allah. not sure if that helps.

:w:

[Nerd]

Brian Greene (in his PBS TV Show The Elegant Universe) demonstrates the futility of explaining Theoretical Physics to a dog. The dog didn’t understand a single character he was writing on the chalkboard, simply because its primitive brain didn’t know what the character resembled, which is probably because it was incapable of understanding the related symbology. We are different, not only do we understand quantum and theoretical physics, but we CAN also understand a lot about God. Things we cannot understand, shouldn’t, as I believe, even cross our minds just like that dog doesn’t wonder about the existence of the Lambda or the Delta. In case the dog does in deed wonder about those things, err… I’ll stop asking questions as soon as anyone proves it.

[-Fady-]

you know what? how about we all go Jannah and actually see Allah The Almighty????

discussing this is pointless and has no meaning except maybe doing wrogn without knowing...

[Nerd]

^Fady, I have learned to question everything and I found that getting answers only made my belief in God more concrete than ever before. Otherwise, its just blind faith,

[NYCmuslim]

Brian Greene (in his PBS TV Show The Elegant Universe) demonstrates the futility of explaining Theoretical Physics to a dog. The dog didn’t understand a single character he was writing on the chalkboard, simply because its primitive brain didn’t know what the character resembled, which is probably because it was incapable of understanding the related symbology. We are different, not only do we understand quantum and theoretical physics, but we CAN also understand a lot about God. Things we cannot understand, shouldn’t, as I believe, even cross our minds just like that dog doesn’t wonder about the existence of the Lambda or the Delta. In case the dog does in deed wonder about those things, err… I’ll stop asking questions as soon as anyone proves it.

:sl:

A dog is not human. It is incapable of "wondering about things" while we humans do. Its brain is different than ours.

As said in the Quran, Allah is unlike any of His creation. That means He cannot be anything that we can see, hear, feel, etc. We can only describe Him by the attributes He uses to describe Himself in the Quran.

Peace

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

:sl:

Jazakallah Khayr Br Khaldun for clearing up the the matter.

:sl:
That means He cannot be anything that we can see, hear, feel, etc.

:w:

I agree with the most of your post. I however find this quoted statement troubling. If Allaah is unable to be heard, then who did Prophet Musa hear at the side of the mountain?

{But when he came to it, he was called from the right side of the valley in a blessed spot - from the tree, "O Moses, indeed I am Allah , Lord of the worlds."}[al-Qasas; 30]

If Musa did not hear Allaah, then who other than Him, can have the audacity to say "indeed I am Allah , Lord of the worlds."?

And Allaah has made it clear in the Qur'an that the believers will indeed see Him:

{Faces, that Day, will be radiant, Looking at their Lord.}[al-Qiyamah; 22-23]

{Nay! Surely, they (evil-doers) will be veiled from seeing their Lord that Day.}[al-Mutafifeen; 15]

[YusufNoor]

Could you back your argument from the Quran or Hadeeth of Prophet Peace Be Upon Him? So that we can stop this discussion and save ourselves from a grave sin

[2.32] They said: Glory be to Thee! we have no knowledge but that which Thou hast taught us; surely Thou art the Knowing, the Wise.

thus, if we haven't been taught it, we don't have the knowledge;

[24.15] When you received it with your tongues and spoke with your mouths what you had no knowledge of, and you deemed it an easy matter while with Allah it was grievous

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

my post was answering that, just to be clear.

. We are different, not only do we understand quantum and theoretical physics, but we CAN also understand a lot about God.

absolutely, AND you may question, BUT at times we must constrict our answers!

an Ayah or 2:

6.102] That is Allah, your Lord, there is no god but He; the Creator of all things, therefore serve Him, and He has charge of all things.
[6.103] Vision comprehends Him not, and He comprehends (all) vision; and He is the Knower of subtleties, the Aware.

an hadeeth from Bukhari:

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 477:

Narrated Masruq:

'Aisha said, "If anyone tells you that Muhammad has seen his Lord, he is a liar, for Allah says: 'No vision can grasp Him.' (6.103) And if anyone tells you that Muhammad has seen the Unseen, he is a liar, for Allah says: "None has the knowledge of the Unseen but Allah."

thus we don't say what we can't or just plain don't know. BUT that isn't to say that we don't wonder about Allah! we know of 99 of his names [or attributes]:

99 names of allah swt

we use these names in our dua's and in another Hadeeth from Bukhari:

Volume 3, Book 50, Number 894:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "Allah has ninety-nine names, i.e. one-hundred minus one, and whoever knows them will go to Paradise." (Please see Hadith No. 419 Vol. 8)

what we do know is found in the Ayat-al-Kursi:

2:255: Sahih International: Allah - there is no deity except Him, the Ever-Living, the Sustainer of [all] existence. Neither drowsiness overtakes Him nor sleep. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. Who is it that can intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is [presently] before them and what will be after them, and they encompass not a thing of His knowledge except for what He wills. His Kursi extends over the heavens and the earth, and their preservation tires Him not. And He is the Most High, the Most Great.

we read that Allah's Kursi[chair] extends OVER the heavens and the earth. we ACCEPT that as true, BUT we really don't know how it does! of more value is to learn the Qur'an and adopt the Qur'an as well as to learn the Sunnah and adopt the Sunnah. and as we are to memorize both Qur'an and Hadeeth, we have PLENTY to contemplate and do!

does that make any more sense?

:w:

[NYCmuslim]

:sl:

Jazakallah Khayr Br Khaldun for clearing up the the matter.



:w:

I agree with the most of your post. I however find this quoted statement troubling. If Allaah is unable to be heard, then who did Prophet Musa hear at the side of the mountain?

{But when he came to it, he was called from the right side of the valley in a blessed spot - from the tree, "O Moses, indeed I am Allah , Lord of the worlds."}[al-Qasas; 30]

If Musa did not hear Allaah, then who other than Him, can have the audacity to say "indeed I am Allah , Lord of the worlds."?

And Allaah has made it clear in the Qur'an that the believers will indeed see Him:

{Faces, that Day, will be radiant, Looking at their Lord.}[al-Qiyamah; 22-23]

{Nay! Surely, they (evil-doers) will be veiled from seeing their Lord that Day.}[al-Mutafifeen; 15]

Good point. I'll have to look more into the matter with Moses pbuh. I guess I'll retract that part of my statement until then.

As for seeing Allah. We cannot see Him while still living in this world. The case is different in the akhira. I should have included that in my post.

Peace.

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


We affirm what the texts affirm without asking their kayfa (howness), and we stop at where the texts stop at.


So whatever Allah has affirmed for Himself, we accept that without making a distortion (ta'wil) of its apparent (dhahir) meaning, and whatever He hasn't mentioned - we don't delve into.


Nerd, to answer your question - the 3 best generations of Islam [the sahabah, tabi'in, and their students] did not delve into these issues, hence if the most knowledgable amongst the Muslims did not go into these issues, then we should not either. Since they did it out of a greater wisdom and for the safety of the pure Islam.

How can we comprehend something if we havn't even seen it?

[Umar001]

I thought this thread was closed?

Otherwise, its just blind faith,

Maybe this is the difference of the perspectives.

Two individuals with different measuring sticks will most of the time come with different measurements.

Blind faith in someone who deserves it is praiseworthy, well I think it is.

[S_87]

Here is the passage I was referring to:

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth." (Genesis 1:26-28)

Sahih Muslim
This hadith has been transmitted on the authority of Abu Huraira and in the hadith transmitted on the authority of Ibn Hatim Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) is reported to have said: When any one of you fights with his brother, he should avoid his face for Allah created adam in His own image.

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, created adam in His own image with His length of sixty cubits, and as He created him He told him to greet that group, and that was a party of angels sitting there, and listen to the response that they give him, for it would form his greeting and that of his offspring. He then went away and said: Peace be upon you! They (the angels) said: May there be peace upon you and the Mercy of Allah, and they made an addition of" Mercy of Allah". So he who would get into Paradise would get in the form of Adarn, his length being sixty cubits, then the people who followed him continued to diminish in size up to this day

We leave these narrations alone without pondering them, because when we ponder we assume.

[S_87]

:sl:

Jazakallah Khayr Br Khaldun for clearing up the the matter.



:w:

I agree with the most of your post. I however find this quoted statement troubling. If Allaah is unable to be heard, then who did Prophet Musa hear at the side of the mountain?

{But when he came to it, he was called from the right side of the valley in a blessed spot - from the tree, "O Moses, indeed I am Allah , Lord of the worlds."}[al-Qasas; 30]

If Musa did not hear Allaah, then who other than Him, can have the audacity to say "indeed I am Allah , Lord of the worlds."?

And when Moosa (moses) came at the time and place appointed by Us, and his Lord spoke to him, he said: "O my Lord! Show me (Yourself), that I may look upon You." Allah said: "You cannot see Me, but look upon the mountain if it stands still in its place then you shall see Me." So when his Lord appeared to the mountain, He made it collapse to dust, and Moosa (moses) fell down unconscious. Then when he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to You, I turn to You in repentance and I am the first of the believers."
7:143

Tafsir ibn kathir:

Musa asks to see Allah


Allah said that when Musa came for His appointment and spoke to Him directly, he asked to see Him,


[رَبِّ أَرِنِى أَنظُرْ إِلَيْكَ قَالَ لَن تَرَانِى]


("O my Lord! Show me (Yourself), that I may look upon You.'' Allah said: "You cannot see Me,'') `You cannot' (Lan) by no means indicates that seeing Allah will never occur, as (the misguided sect of) Al-Mu`tazilah claimed. The Hadiths of Mutawatir grade narrated from the Messenger of Allah, affirm that the believers will see Allah in the Hereafter. We will mention these Hadiths under the explanation of Allah's statement,


[وُجُوهٌ يَوْمَئِذٍ نَّاضِرَةٌ - إِلَى رَبِّهَا نَاظِرَةٌ ]


(Some faces that Day shall be radiant. Looking at their Lord.) [75:22-23] In earlier Scriptures, it was reported that Allah said to Musa, "O Musa! No living soul sees Me, but will perish, and no solid but will be demolished.'' Allah said here,


[فَلَمَّا تَجَلَّى رَبُّهُ لِلْجَبَلِ جَعَلَهُ دَكًّا وَخَرَّ موسَى صَعِقًا]


(So when his Lord appeared to the mountain, He made it collapse to dust, and Musa fell down unconscious.) In his Musnad Imam Ahmad recorded from Anas bin Malik that the Prophet said about Allah's saying;


[فَلَمَّا تَجَلَّى رَبُّهُ لِلْجَبَلِ]


(And when his Lord appeared to the mountain, )


«هكذا»


(Like this) then he held out the tip of his little finger. At-Tirmidhi recorded this in the chapter of Tafsir for this Ayah, then he said; "This Hadith is Hasan Sahih Gharib.'' This was also recorded by Al-Hakim in his Mustadrak through the route of Hamad bin Salamah, and he said; "This Hadith is Sahih according to the criteria of Muslim and they did not record it.'' And As-Suddi reported that `Ikrimah reported from Ibn `Abbas about Allah's saying,


[فَلَمَّا تَجَلَّى رَبُّهُ لِلْجَبَلِ]


(And when his Lord appeared to the mountain,) Only the extent of the little finger appeared from Him,


[جَعَلَهُ دَكًّا]


(He made it collapse) as dust;


[وَخَرَّ موسَى صَعِقًا]


(And Musa fell down unconscious) fainting from it

[Nerd]

and his Lord spoke to him, he said: "O my Lord! Show me (Yourself), that I may look upon You." Allah said: "You cannot see Me, but look upon the mountain if it stands still in its place then you shall see Me."

Not to make my own inferences, but is it not very clear that Prophet Moosa (Moses) indeed heard Allah?

[Nerd]

We leave these narrations alone without pondering them, because when we ponder we assume.

Agreed :)

[ajazz]

Assalamualikum


Allah describes himself in the holy Quran ,

Verily, I am Allah! There is no other god besides Me. (Quran, 20:14)

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him. (Quran,, 112)

Allah, there is none worthy of worship but He. The Ever-Living, The Self-Subsisting. Neither slumber nor sleep overtake Him. To Him belongs whatsoever is in the heavens and on Earth. Who can intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows the past and the future and they can encompass nothing of His Knowledge except what He wills. His Chair extends over the heavens and the earth and He feels no fatigue in guarding them. And He is The Highest, The Mighty. (Quran, 2:255)

There is nothing comparable to Him. And He is The All-Hearing, The All-Seeing. (Quran, 42:11)

Human beings have 5 basic senses but they have great limitations
Our eyes can detect only light that too in a limited range
We can hear sound which is limited to 20 Hz – 20 kHz frequency range
Our senses are just powerful enough to help us survive in this world
Therefore we cannot picture Allah in our mind.there are many things hidden and unseen by us.
Allah is unique; we cannot compare him with anything in the world or universe
He is beyond any imagination of human beings

so how do we know how Allah(swt) is?

Allah has 99 names(one hidden), they are his attributes, and through these attributes we can know
Allah(swt),
Here are some of his names or attributes

please read them carefully and try to reflect, these are stunning descriptions

As-Salaam
The Source of Peace, The One who is free from every imperfection.

Al-Quddoos
The Holy, The One who is pure from any imperfection and clear from children and adversaries.

Al-Mutakabbir
The Majestic, The One who is clear from the attributes of the creatures and from resembling them.

Al-Khaaliq
The Creator, The One who brings everything from non-existence to existence.
Al-Musawwir
The Fashioner, The One who forms His creatures in different pictures.

Al-Ghaffaar
The Great Forgiver, The Forgiver, The One who forgives the sins of His slaves time and time again.

As-Samee^
The All-Hearing, The Hearer, The One who Hears all things that are heard by His Eternal Hearing without an ear, instrument or organ.

Al-Baseer
The All-Seeing, The One who Sees all things that are seen by His Eternal Seeing without a pupil or any other instrument.

Al-Haleem
The Forebearing, The Clement, The One who delays the punishment for those who deserve it and then He might forgive them.

Al-Kabeer
The Most Great, The Great, The One who is greater than everything in status.

Al-Haqq
The Truth, The True, The One who truly exists.

Al-Mateen
The Firm One, The One with extreme Power which is un-interrupted and He does not get tired.

Al-Mumeet
The Creator of Death, The Destroyer, The One who renders the living dead.

Al-Qayyoom
The Self-Subsisting, The One who remains and does not end.


Al-'Awwal
The First, The One whose Existence is without a beginning.

Al-'Akhir
The Last, The One whose Existence is without an end.

Az-Zaahir
The Manifest, The One that nothing is above Him and nothing is underneath Him, hence He exists without a place. He, The Exalted, His Existence is obvious by proofs and He is clear from the delusions of attributes of bodies.

Al-Ghaniyy
The Self-Sufficient, The One who does not need the creation.



Al-Badi^
The Incomparable, The One who created the creation and formed it without any preceding example.

Al-Baaqi
The Everlasting, The One that the state of non-existence is impossible for Him.


As-Saboor
The Patient, The One who does not quickly punish the sinners.


This is the definition of god in Islam, does any other religion provides such a definite, clear, concise, precise and stunning description of god?

alhamdulila!! Allah-o-akbar!!



from the above quoted verse

"His Chair extends over the heavens and the earth"

this does not mean the chair as we know since from the above description
it is clear
but
suppose if you want to describe something or explain to someone which he cannot comprehend or imagine how do you do that?
well you communicate in the medium that he/she understand and describe things with which he/she is familiar with.

I hope now you understand when you see the expressions such as " hand of Allah"

before i end i quote from the majestic Quran


O you who believe! Ask not about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if you ask about them while the Quran is being revealed, they will be made plain to you. Allah has forgiven that, and Allah is OftForgiving, Most Forbearing.

Before you, a community asked such questions, then on that account they became disbelievers.

Al-Maeda: 101.102


Allah knows best

.

[Nerd]

In Summary:

-God, in His infinite impeccability, does not have any embodiment (or character) that reminisces with anything in creation.

-Defining him with such mortal characteristics is a grave sin.

-we aren’t allowed to graphically depict Him (squiggly lines of His name is OK though-Arabic Calligraphy).

-We can only understand Allah through His Name's, and what have been revealed to us.

[------]

:salamext:

^ Yup.

:threadclo

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Not to make my own inferences, but is it not very clear that Prophet Moosa (Moses) indeed heard Allah?

And why is that?

[Nerd]

And why is that?

Refer to the words I quoted from:

"and his Lord spoke to him, he said: "O my Lord! Show me (Yourself), that I may look upon You." Allah said: "You cannot see Me, but look upon the mountain if it stands still in its place then you shall see Me."

:?

[Malaikah]

Yes, Moses did hear Allah as far as I know... so whats the issue? :?

[Nerd]

^

As said in the Quran, Allah is unlike any of His creation. That means He cannot be anything that we can see, hear, feel, etc. We can only describe Him by the attributes He uses to describe Himself in the Quran.

Peace

it was somewhat of a proof that Allah can be heard

[------]

:salamext:

^ Of course He can be heard!!

"and his Lord spoke to him, he said: "O my Lord! Show me (Yourself), that I may look upon You." Allah said: "You cannot see Me, but look upon the mountain if it stands still in its place then you shall see Me."

This refers to being Seen.

Any issue?! I think not!

[Nerd]

It's a non-issue, Allah can be heard by human beings.

Did Prophet Muhammad peace be upon Him saw Allah directly on the night of the ascension?

[M H Kahn]

In Christianity, there are references that God has created man in his own image.

Do Muslims hold the same belief? Does God indeed has a body?

Allah has not made it known to us how he is like. He has said that there is nothing like Him. He commands:

"Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him."

[Nerd]

Allah has not made it known to us how he is like. He has said that there is nothing like Him. He commands:

"Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him."

Yes, we have established this fact through our discussion M H Kahn, thank you for restating it again.

[YusufNoor]

It's a non-issue, Allah can be heard by human beings.

Did Prophet Muhammad peace be upon Him saw Allah directly on the night of the ascension?

:sl:

i posted this earlier, and assume that it covers the miraj as well!

you can do an hadeeth search here:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchhadith.html

an hadeeth from Bukhari:

Quote:
Volume 9, Book 93, Number 477:

Narrated Masruq:

'Aisha said, "If anyone tells you that Muhammad has seen his Lord, he is a liar, for Allah says: 'No vision can grasp Him.' (6.103) And if anyone tells you that Muhammad has seen the Unseen, he is a liar, for Allah says: "None has the knowledge of the Unseen but Allah."

:w:

[------]

:salamext:

^ I have a query regarding that hadith. So does that mean that Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu Alayhi Wa Sallam did NOT see Paradise/Hell? or Allaah? Doesn't that mean 2 sahih hadiths contradict each other? :mmokay:

[- Qatada -]

It's a non-issue, Allah can be heard by human beings.

Did Prophet Muhammad peace be upon Him saw Allah directly on the night of the ascension?

:salamext:


The companions of Allah's Messenger sal Allah alaihi wasalam had a difference of opinion on whether he saw Allah with his eyes, or with his heart. Therefore - showing that this is not a critical aqeedah matter, since even the companions differed on this.


In regard to seeing Allah, the verse is clear in meaning - that Moses should look at the mountain (i'll post the tafsir of it on the next post):

“And when Moses arrived at Our appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said, ‘My Lord, show me (Yourself) that I may look at You.’ (God) said, ‘You will not see Me, but look at the mountain; if it should remain in place, then you will see Me.’ But when his Lord appeared to the mountain, He rendered it level, and Moses fell unconscious. And when he awoke, he said, ‘Exalted are You! I have repented to You, and I am the first of the believers.’” (Quran 7:143)

Check this link to answer your question;

Can We See God?
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/331/

[------]

:salamext:

I'm like totally confused after the above link.

[- Qatada -]

Musa asks to see Allah


http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=7&tid=18663

Allah said that when Musa came for His appointment and spoke to Him directly, he asked to see Him,


[رَبِّ أَرِنِى أَنظُرْ إِلَيْكَ قَالَ لَن تَرَانِى]


("O my Lord! Show me (Yourself), that I may look upon You.'' Allah said: "You cannot see Me,'') `You cannot' (Lan) by no means indicates that seeing Allah will never occur, as (the misguided sect of) Al-Mu`tazilah claimed. The Hadiths of Mutawatir grade narrated from the Messenger of Allah, affirm that the believers will see Allah in the Hereafter. We will mention these Hadiths under the explanation of Allah's statement,


[وُجُوهٌ يَوْمَئِذٍ نَّاضِرَةٌ - إِلَى رَبِّهَا نَاظِرَةٌ ]


(Some faces that Day shall be radiant. Looking at their Lord.) [75:22-23] In earlier Scriptures, it was reported that Allah said to Musa, "O Musa! No living soul sees Me, but will perish, and no solid but will be demolished.'' Allah said here,


[فَلَمَّا تَجَلَّى رَبُّهُ لِلْجَبَلِ جَعَلَهُ دَكًّا وَخَرَّ موسَى صَعِقًا]


(So when his Lord appeared to the mountain, He made it collapse to dust, and Musa fell down unconscious.) In his Musnad Imam Ahmad recorded from Anas bin Malik that the Prophet said about Allah's saying;


[فَلَمَّا تَجَلَّى رَبُّهُ لِلْجَبَلِ]


(And when his Lord appeared to the mountain, )

«هكذا»


(Like this) then he held out the tip of his little finger. At-Tirmidhi recorded this in the chapter of Tafsir for this Ayah, then he said; "This Hadith is Hasan Sahih Gharib.'' This was also recorded by Al-Hakim in his Mustadrak through the route of Hamad bin Salamah, and he said; "This Hadith is Sahih according to the criteria of Muslim and they did not record it.'' And As-Suddi reported that `Ikrimah reported from Ibn `Abbas about Allah's saying,


[فَلَمَّا تَجَلَّى رَبُّهُ لِلْجَبَلِ]


(And when his Lord appeared to the mountain,) Only the extent of the little finger appeared from Him,

[جَعَلَهُ دَكًّا]

(He made it collapse) as dust;

[وَخَرَّ موسَى صَعِقًا]


(And Musa fell down unconscious) fainting from it. Ibn Jarir recorded these because of the relation to the word Al-Ghashi.


[فَلَمَّآ أَفَاقَ]


(Then when he (Musa) recovered his senses) after he lost consciousness,


[قَالَ سُبْحَـنَكَ]


(he said: "Glory be to You,'') thus, praising, glorifying and honoring Allah since no living soul could see Him in this life and remain alive. Musa' statement,


[تُبْتُ إِلَيْكَ]


("I turn to You in repentance'') means, according to Mujahid, that from asking you to look at you,


[وَأَنَاْ أَوَّلُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ]


("and I am the first of the believers.''), among the Children of Israel, according to Ibn `Abbas, Mujahid, and Ibn Jarir preferred this view. Or, according to another narration from Ibn `Abbas, the meaning of,


[وَأَنَاْ أَوَّلُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ]


("and I am the first of the believers.''), is that `none shall see You (in this life).' Allah said,


[وَخَرَّ موسَى صَعِقًا]


(And Musa fell down unconscious.) Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri and Abu Hurayrah narrated a Hadith from the Prophet that is suitable to mention here. As for the Hadith from Abu Sa`id, Al-Bukhari recorded in his Sahih that he said: A Jew came to the Prophet after his face was smacked, and said, "O Muhammad! One of your companions from Al-Ansar smacked me on the face.'' The Prophet said,


«ادْعُوه»


(Summon him) and he was summoned. The Prophet asked him,


«لِمَ لَطَمْتَ وَجْهَهُ؟»


(Why did you smack his face) He said, "O Allah's Messenger! I passed by that Jew and heard him swearing, `No, by He Who has chosen Musa over mankind!' I said, `Over Muhammad too', and I became angry and struck his face.'' The Prophet said,


«لَا تُخَيِّرُونِي مِنْ بَيْنِ الْأَنْبِيَاءِ فَإِنَّ النَّاسَ يَصْعَقُونَ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ فَأَكُونُ أَوَّلَ مَنْ يُفِيقُ، فَإِذَا أَنَا بِمُوسَى آخِذٌ بِقَائِمَةٍ مِنْ قَوَائِمِ الْعَرْشِ، فَلَا أَدْرِي أَفَاقَ قَبْلِي أَمْ جُوزِيَ بِصَعْقَةِ الطُّور»


(Do not prefer me above the Prophets. Verily, on the Day of Resurrection, people will be struck unconscious, and I (feel that I) am the first to wake up. Thereupon I will find that Musa is holding onto a pillar of the Throne (`Arsh of Allah). I will not know if he woke up before me or he received his due (because of his) unconsciousness on (Mount) At-Tur.) Al-Bukhari recorded this Hadith in many locations of his Sahih, as did Muslim and Abu Dawud. As for the Hadith from Abu Hurayrah, Imam Ahmad and the Two Shaykhs (Al-Bukhari and Muslim) collected his narration.

[YusufNoor]

:salamext:

^ I have a query regarding that hadith. So does that mean that Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu Alayhi Wa Sallam did NOT see Paradise/Hell? or Allaah? Doesn't that mean 2 sahih hadiths contradict each other? :mmokay:

:sl:


Allah knows best!

you'd have to ask someone with knowledge!

:w:

[------]

:salamext:

^ I have a query regarding that hadith. So does that mean that Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu Alayhi Wa Sallam did NOT see Paradise/Hell? or Allaah? Doesn't that mean 2 sahih hadiths contradict each other? :mmokay:

Bro Qatada?

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:

^ I have a query regarding that hadith. So does that mean that Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu Alayhi Wa Sallam did NOT see Paradise/Hell? or Allaah? Doesn't that mean 2 sahih hadiths contradict each other? :mmokay:

:wasalamex


There is no contradiction, the only difference is that the companions had a difference of opinion on whether the Messenger of Allah saw Allah directly with his eyes, or with his heart.

Since the companions who were the most learned of the religion had a difference of opinion on this issue, it isn't a matter which will expel the person out of the fold of Islam or make them an innovator if they choose either opinion. And Allah knows best.

[------]

:wasalamex

There is no contradiction, the only difference is that the companions had a difference of opinion on whether the Messenger of Allah saw Allah directly with his eyes, or with his heart.

:salamext:

Oh ok, Jazaak Allaah Khayr for the clarification.

What about seeing Paradise/Hell? He (Sallallahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) did see them, as explained in other hadiths. but in the hadith bro YusufNoor posted;

Bukhari:

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 477:

Narrated Masruq:

'Aisha said, "If anyone tells you that Muhammad has seen his Lord, he is a liar, for Allah says: 'No vision can grasp Him.' (6.103) And if anyone tells you that Muhammad has seen the Unseen, he is a liar, for Allah says: "None has the knowledge of the Unseen but Allah."

??????

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


i dont know sorry. i'll ask about it insha Allah and if i get a response i'll post it insha Allah

[------]

:salamext:

Jazaak Allaah Khayr akhee.

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


Got a reply;

It means: if anyone tells you that Muhammad ASWS new the Ghaib (the future, when he'll die ... etc).

http://ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showthread.php?t=2231


I think this was with the exception of what was revealed to him. And Allah knows best.


Alhamdulillah.

[------]

:salamext:

Oh right, so that doesn't include viewing Hell/Heaven then? Jazaak Allaah Khayr akhee!

[Nerd]

^ it's clear from the Hadith: that

Aisha said, "If anyone tells you that Muhammad has seen his Lord, he is a liar, for Allah says: 'No vision can grasp Him.' (6.103) And if anyone tells you that Muhammad has seen the Unseen, he is a liar, for Allah says: "None has the knowledge of the Unseen but Allah."

Than how can we re-interpret to say say it was just the future that Prophet peace be upon have not seen. Maybe we have missed something in the translation. As brother Al Habeshi mentioned in an earlier post in this thread.

Allah Knows the best.

[Tyrion]

I remember reading somewhere, that people cannot comprehend or come up with Gods appearance, so i guess that means He cant have a body. (at least, not one we're capable of imagining.)

[Keltoi]

I remember reading somewhere, that people cannot comprehend or come up with Gods appearance, so i guess that means He cant have a body. (at least, not one we're capable of imagining.)

Tyrion....are you a George R. R. Martin fan by chance?:D

[anatolian]

In Quran it says that Allah breathed into adam from His Spirit then it became the living Adam.I find this verse of Quran that verse of Torah "being made in the image of God" same meaning.

[ASeeker]

Muslims - please don't impose false interpretation onto the Bible. Neither Christians or Jews believe that God has a body like humans! The biblical phase that God created humans "in his image" means that he has given us a spiritual nature by which we can have a relationship with him if we choose (and we should so choose).

As Jesus said, "God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and truth".
(New Testament of the Bible, John 4:24)

[YusufNoor]

Muslims - please don't impose false interpretation onto the Bible. Neither Christians or Jews believe that God has a body like humans! The biblical phase that God created humans "in his image" means that he has given us a spiritual nature by which we can have a relationship with him if we choose (and we should so choose).

As Jesus said, "God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and truth".
(New Testament of the Bible, John 4:24)

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

"Neither Christians or Jews believe that God has a body like humans!"

really, then who's the fellow that Christians portray hanging on across?

or have you now come to the Truth that Jesus/Isa ibn Marriam was just a Prophet and Slave of Allah Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala?

:w:

[kwolney01]

No, the Quran does not say anything about God creating us in his own image. God is too great for humans to imagine.

[Tyrion]

Tyrion....are you a George R. R. Martin fan by chance?:D

yeah, i am. =)

[noorseeker]

we wil have to just wait and see

[doorster]

.............
maybe someone can post from Uthaymeen's explanatin of Ayatul Kursi if I am not mistaken it speaks on that?
..........

• AayatulQursi - Uthaimeen - From Commentary on Imaam ibn Taymeeyah’s Sharhul ’Aqeedatil-Waasitiyyah - by Shaikh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah
• Tafseer Ayatul-Kursi - by Shaykh Muhammad Saleh Al Uthaymeen

[Mahesh Jain]

Not to make my own inferences, but is it not very clear that Prophet Moosa (Moses) indeed heard Allah?

Now if indeed, Prophet Moses did hear God's voice, was it a male voice / female voice. If it was indeed a male voice ? then why cant the God almighty have a male form ?

If indeed God almighty has reached humans ( Prophet Moses & his companions) through audio signal ( 20 hz - 20 khz ) range, how can we deny that God almighty hasnt revealed himself to humans through electro-magnetic radiations( visible range : VIBGYOR) through visual appearance.( Ex :- Dhruva Maharaja, Prahlada & an elephant 'Gajendra, as in bhagavatam : a hindu scripture).,

So, after reading almost all religious scriptures, 'Bhagavad-Gita' gave some comprehensive idea about the eternal form of 'God almighty'.

[Muslim Woman]

:sl:


It's better not to talk about these matters - does God have a body or soul , does God sit on the throne or not . Unwillingly we can commit blasphemy. God says in Quran : no one is like God. So , in this world , we can't have a correct image of God Almighty .We have to wait till the last day.

May be , mod should close the thread.

[Asiyah3]

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only!
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not nor is He begotten.
And there is none like unto Him.

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only!
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not nor is He begotten.
And there is none like unto Him.

And with that,

:threadclo