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ajazz
06-02-2008, 08:33 AM
Assalamualykum






"If skepticism is the basis of science, then in the same way that Darwinists believe that chance brought all things into being, they must also allow the possibility that Allah (God) created them. Since science requires skepticism, then they must admit at least a 50% probability that Allah created life."



http://tinyurl.com/3qvtwb

.
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Nerd
06-02-2008, 11:51 AM
Well the real question is: what was the first living being? How it came into being and when it happened?

As far as science is concerned, it was due to coincidence. The 'how's are answered by the theories of abiogenesis and natural selection. And both of these are backed by scientific evidence. Unlike creation, which is only faith based.
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- Qatada -
06-02-2008, 03:28 PM
:salamext: :)

format_quote Originally Posted by Nerd
Well the real question is: what was the first living being? How it came into being and when it happened?
Here's a good concept, when theres a row of dominoes - the first domino needs to be pushed by someone. The creation needs to be triggered by God, a starting point.

Our belief that Allah is Perfect because He isn't created is a concept which allows us to realise that if Allah was 'created', He wouldn't be God. So by believing that He isn't created allows us to understand that He is Perfect.


As far as science is concerned, it was due to coincidence. The 'how's are answered by the theories of abiogenesis

Bro steve discussed abiogenesis and the biases that Miller had in his study:

In 1953 the Miller-Urey experiment was conducted that attempted to mimic the conditions on earth during the time life originated. They mixed water and hydrogen as well as methane and ammonia. Then they used electrodes to emit electrical charges into the mixture. After several days of continuously charging the mixture with sparks, they managed to get about 2% of amino acids. However, much larger percentage of substances (carboxylic acids, and tar) harmful to life were mixed with it. Next to that the experiment does not account for all required amino acids to make proteins, and the experiment also does not explain how these amino acids would then go on to form the required proteins. The experiment also showed some of the building blocks for nuclide acids, but again does not account for how they could have formed DNA/RNA. Furthermore, there were both left handed as right handed isomers, whereas only one type is common in biology.

http://seemyparadigm.webs.com/evolution.htm
and natural selection.

Natural selection, or micro evolution doesn't contradict Islam. Animals surviving due to certain strengths compared to others is a pattern in Allah's creation.


And both of these are backed by scientific evidence. Unlike creation, which is only faith based.

Creation indeed does require faith, but the concepts of life coming into existence by abiogenesis is only a concept, which 'if it were to occur' caused life to remain on earth. So basically, if the theory did happen - then that's how life survived on earth. However, the theory in of itself is questionable, so it can't be fact.



And Allah knows best.
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Nerd
06-02-2008, 03:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
:

Bro steve discussed abiogenesis and the biases that Miller had in his study:

[INDENT]In 1953 the Miller-Urey experiment was conducted that attempted to mimic the conditions on earth during the time life originated. They mixed water and hydrogen as well as methane and ammonia. Then they used electrodes to emit electrical charges into the mixture. After several days of continuously charging the mixture with sparks, they managed to get about 2% of amino acids. However, much larger percentage of substances (carboxylic acids, and tar) harmful to life were mixed with it. Next to that the experiment does not account for all required amino acids to make proteins, and the experiment also does not explain how these amino acids would then go on to form the required proteins. The experiment also showed some of the building blocks for nuclide acids, but again does not account for how they could have formed DNA/RNA. Furthermore, there were both left handed as right handed isomers, whereas only one type is common in biology.
The hypothesis goes that simple molecules gradually over billions of years gave rise to complex ones and DNA came much later into the picture.

simple molecules --> complex molecules --> polymers --> self-replicating polymers --> protobionts

Unstable polymers were destroyed by other molecules, the stable ones continued to replicate. The ones which, by chance, formed barriers or coats around them (protobionts), had a better chance of replicating. (natural selection applies here). These early systems then grew complex gradually through further natural selection, over millions and millions of years to give the DNA we are familiar with. Considering the time it took for these replicators to evolve, and the conditions of the early earth, this primordial soup hypothesis is very plausible.

As for that experiment, that was a one time simulation and it still yielded some amino acids. I should say thats very strong evidence for their case, considering that we do not start from amino acids, there were billions of such chemical reactions taking place on the early Earth, and millions of years were available for the replicators to form and evolve. So the odds are that such chemicals should have formed. It would have been highly remarkable if they hadn't.
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- Qatada -
06-02-2008, 03:35 PM
:salamext:


i'm not a pro on this bro, but still check out the link of bro steve (aka Abdul Fattah) insha Allah :)


http://seemyparadigm.webs.com/evolution.htm
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Keltoi
06-02-2008, 04:12 PM
I think debating molecules and soups sort of misses the point from the perspective of a person of faith. As was mentioned before, that first domino is the point. I understand that athiests and others will simply theorize that over millions and millions of years human beings evolved from a chemical mixture. Resting on that assumption takes just as much faith as belief in a divine source of creation. Yes, there is circumstantial evidence of evolving lifeforms at the cellular level, but I don't think that answers the central question of where the original spark of life came from.

I'm not speaking as a Christian with a doctrine, just in the most vague philosophical sense. Was that original spark of life simply a random effect of...what? Hypothetically, where did these chemicals come from? Did the universe just appear out of void? I think these questions are what keep most theists from buying in to the scientific pseudo-explanations of the issue.
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Trumble
06-02-2008, 05:59 PM
"If skepticism is the basis of science, then in the same way that Darwinists believe that chance brought all things into being, they must also allow the possibility that Allah (God) created them. Since science requires skepticism, then they must admit at least a 50% probability that Allah created life."
Hmm... quite possibly one of the the most meaningless pieces of rhetorical gibberish I have ever seen, although of course that is only to expected from the author. It falls in the first clause with a show-stopping strawman.

Skepticism is not "the basis of science", the scientific method is the basis of science. Skepticism has its place in science, certainly, the principal one being questioning claims which lack empirical evidence. The simple fact is while there is empirical evidence for Darwinian evolution (however convincing you may, or may not, find it) there is none whatsoever for creationism. Game over in scientific terms. Quite where Yahya plucked '50%' from I don't know. I doubt he does either.. nice round number, I suppose. :rollseyes
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asadxyz
06-02-2008, 11:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nerd
The hypothesis goes that simple molecules gradually over billions of years gave rise to complex ones and DNA came much later into the picture.
simple molecules --> complex molecules --> polymers --> self-replicating polymers --> protobionts


.
Just a "........." hypothesis.Any proof ??
Can any create human DNA just mixing up hydrogen ,Oxygen and nitrogen atoms today with all possible resources available? If no why to presume such type of hypothesis which are so ridiculous?
Reply

Nerd
06-03-2008, 12:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by asadxyz
Just a "........." hypothesis.Any proof ??
Can any create human DNA just mixing up hydrogen ,Oxygen and nitrogen atoms today with all possible resources available? If no why to presume such type of hypothesis which are so ridiculous?
Could you elaborate why it is "Ridiculous"? Abiogenesis is the most successful hypothesis yet proposed.

Miller-Urey experiment, that was a one time simulation and it still yielded some amino acids. I should say thats very strong evidence for their case, considering that we do not start from amino acids, there were billions of such chemical reactions taking place on the early Earth, and millions of years were available for the replicators to form and evolve. So the odds are that such chemicals should have formed. It would have been highly remarkable if they hadn't.

Quantum theory and evolution defy common sense. Evidence is always required. This, hypothesis is much like man being created from clay and sent down to Earth. Like natural selection, science methodically discards each based on their fitness to survive, i.e their ability to provide evidence. And among those, the highest evolved seems to be this primordial soup hypothesis as of yet.
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asadxyz
06-03-2008, 01:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nerd
Could you elaborate why it is "Ridiculous"? Abiogenesis is the most successful hypothesis yet proposed.

.
You prove this hypothesis because burden of proof is the responsiblity of the person who claims.

Quantum theory and evolution defy common sense. Evidence is always required
There is no "defiance" of common sense.Just lack of knowledge of mankind.If something is against the common sense today will be according to common sense tomorrow.
Till yesterday mankind was thinking about the procreation that it requires 'male and female 'for animal (I am not talking about parthenogenesis ) ,today cloning has proved it wrong.So islamic claim the Jesus was born without "father" is becoming "common sense " now.
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Nerd
06-03-2008, 02:51 AM
^I understand abiogenesis to be a field of research. There are lots of hypotheses are being studied by this field, of which this primordial soup has been the most succesful so far, as far as I know.

I agree that its speculation, but its speculation based on facts we know. Every scientific theory has passed through this stage, and we can't throw out a hypothesis based on the mere fact that its speculation. Evidence is our yardstick. The more evidence it has, the more acceptable. And I honestly hope you have some new hypothesis which I hadn't heard of. But since I haven't come across any convincing ones yet, I suppose I'll have to take what I can get and wait for the evidence to back it up. The answer is still being fleshed out, and I'm ready to throw this model away if a new one with stronger evidence comes up or this one is disproved somehow. That answer, although vague, is at least true.

Unlike the hypothesis of a Cosmic being- which has no evidence.
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Nerd
06-03-2008, 02:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by asadxyz
Just a "........." hypothesis.Any proof ??
Can any create human DNA just mixing up hydrogen ,Oxygen and nitrogen atoms today with all possible resources available? If no why to presume such type of hypothesis which are so ridiculous?
Not simply mixing up atoms: Read my previous post.

simple molecules --> complex molecules --> polymers --> self-replicating polymers --> protobionts

Unstable polymers were destroyed by other molecules, the stable ones continued to replicate. The ones which, by chance, formed barriers or coats around them (protobionts), had a better chance of replicating. (natural selection applies here). These early systems then grew complex gradually through further natural selection, over millions and millions of years to give the DNA we are familiar with. Considering the time it took for these replicators to evolve, and the conditions of the early earth it is possible.

If this is ridiculous, show me an alternative Hypothesis backed with evidence.
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tetsujin
06-03-2008, 02:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by asadxyz
You prove this hypothesis because burden of proof is the responsiblity of the person who claims.


Amazing. Since when are the religious concerned about the burden of proof? This must be a new thing.

Can any create human DNA just mixing up hydrogen ,Oxygen and nitrogen atoms today with all possible resources available? If no why to presume such type of hypothesis which are so ridiculous?
So let me get this straight, what you are asking is for someone to take a proverbial beaker and put in a cocktail of all the atomic constituents of a human, not in organic molecular form but in their atomic proportions, stir the beaker, and eventually end up with "human" DNA.

Is that right? Take a beaker, agitate it enough and voila?

You have a profound misconception of the scientific concept of the process of abiogenesis. You're making an appeal to chance, wherein you may correctly conclude that the odds of creating a replica of any strand of human dna from scratch, without intervention in the process is nearly impossible, that is simply not what abiogenesis is.

You argument is not new and has taken other forms like:

A tornado through a scrapyard would never build a Boeing 747

If you drew all the cards from a standard deck of 52 playing cards, and took that as the model for human dna... the odds of randomly hitting that exact strand are 1 in 2.3084x10^71..... then you take the volume of water on earth etc.... and state it's impossible blah blah blah....

Using statistical calculations such as these are meaningless when the presumption upon which they are based have no connection to the idea they are trying to debunk.

When you learn what the arguments are, then you can proceed to read the following:

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/95/12/6854


By then, you will have an understanding as to why abiogenesis is plausible.
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tetsujin
06-03-2008, 03:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by asadxyz
So islamic claim the Jesus was born without "father" is becoming "common sense " now.
Sorry I missed this the first time around.


In the rare instance that this ever occurs, and I mean ever, the child would be a female. If you can demonstrate how two unfertilized eggs can fuse to produce a male, I'm listening. I once heard of this happening to a woman during WWII under nazi occupation, but I couldn't find the documentation for it.



Also, just to add onto my previous post.

http://www.rockefeller.edu/evolution....php?src=coyne
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asadxyz
06-03-2008, 07:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin
Sorry I missed this the first time around.


In the rare instance that this ever occurs, and I mean ever, the child would be a female. If you can demonstrate how two unfertilized eggs can fuse to produce a male, I'm listening. I once heard of this happening to a woman during WWII under nazi occupation, but I couldn't find the documentation for it.



Also, just to add onto my previous post.

http://www.rockefeller.edu/evolution....php?src=coyne
Yes for the time being it cannot be proved scientifically.It is exactly like this that a few years back no one could prove that an animal can be created without mating of a male and female.Now it is possible.Science yet to discover a lot of mysteries.Tomorrow it will be discovered.Science has reached upto this level that there are XY females and XX males.With mutation of genes any possiblity cannot be ruled out.
If you look at 50yr back science ,many things were unexplicable but now we have some answer to them.
First step of Fatherless Jesus is solved that animal procreation is possible without mating .
Second step has to be solved how a female can give birth to male child without mating.
Atheists could not even think of procreation without mating upto just a few year back.But Islam declared it 1500 yr ago by describing the birth of Jesus Christ PBUH that birth is possible without mating.
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asadxyz
06-03-2008, 07:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nerd
Not simply mixing up atoms: Read my previous post.

simple molecules --> complex molecules --> polymers --> self-replicating polymers --> protobionts

Unstable polymers were destroyed by other molecules, the stable ones continued to replicate. The ones which, by chance, formed barriers or coats around them (protobionts), had a better chance of replicating. (natural selection applies here). These early systems then grew complex gradually through further natural selection, over millions and millions of years to give the DNA we are familiar with. Considering the time it took for these replicators to evolve, and the conditions of the early earth it is possible.

If this is ridiculous, show me an alternative Hypothesis backed with evidence.
I am yet to know that inspite so much advance in science ,no one has been able to discover complete mystery of human DNA.
Did nature produce PCR ,where ? How ? which lab?
It means "Nature " is the greatest scientest who created such complicated molecules and He is Almighty Allah

My Question is simple how the "matter " was created ? Is it possible that energy can convert into matter ? If so how the energy was created ??
Prove that "something can be created out of nothing" ??
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ozdload
06-03-2008, 08:25 AM

asadxyz


Who can be more irrational than those who say: Design is possible without a designer ??


Who designed the designer and when and where did it happen , there must have been a start time somewhere.
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Nerd
06-03-2008, 08:25 AM
As I have stated before:

I agree that its speculation, but its speculation based on facts we know. Every scientific theory has passed through this stage, and we can't throw out a hypothesis based on the mere fact that its speculation. Evidence is our yardstick. The more evidence it has, the more acceptable. And I honestly hope you have some new hypothesis which I hadn't heard of. But since I haven't come across any convincing ones yet, I suppose I'll have to take what I can get and wait for the evidence to back it up. The answer is still being fleshed out, and I'm ready to throw this model away if a new one with stronger evidence comes up or this one is disproved somehow. That answer, although vague, is at least true.

Unlike the hypothesis of a Cosmic being- which has no evidence.
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Nerd
06-03-2008, 08:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by asadxyz
My Question is simple how the "matter " was created ? Is it possible that energy can convert into matter ? If so how the energy was created ??
Prove that "something can be created out of nothing" ??
Where have I stated that something was created out of nothing? :?
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Nerd
06-03-2008, 08:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
Here's a good concept, when theres a row of dominoes - the first domino needs to be pushed by someone. The creation needs to be triggered by God, a starting point.

Our belief that Allah is Perfect because He isn't created is a concept which allows us to realise that if Allah was 'created', He wouldn't be God. So by believing that He isn't created allows us to understand that He is Perfect.
Even so, what was the first living being on Earth? Is the Quran silent on this matter?
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- Qatada -
06-03-2008, 01:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nerd
Even so, what was the first living being on Earth? Is the Quran silent on this matter?

Allah informs us that He sent Adam to earth with his wife Hawwa, and Iblis (satan) came on the earth also as a clear enemy for mankind.

In regard to plants, animals, or bacteria and other life forms - there is not much mention of it in the texts. Hence, it wouldn't be surprising if other life forms were already dwelling on the earth during this time period.


Infact, many of the classical scholars have mentioned how there were other plants on earth (such as wheat etc. which Adam ate as provisions from Allah, for Adam and his family) - so it wouldn't be surprising if other animals were present on the earth during this time period, who were feeding off this produce also.
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- Qatada -
06-03-2008, 01:43 PM
:salamext:


bro asad, this might be helpful insha Allah;


The issue of evolution and life being formed through the means of abiogenesis (life coming from non life) doesn't have to be true. Scientists can't prove that this is how life originated on earth.

All they can argue is that if abiogenesis took place, then that can be an explanation for how life began on earth.



The big word in that sentence is 'if', because it's just a claim of there's. Even if they use studies to prove that abiogenesis can take place, it doesn't mean that this has to be the method for the origin of life on earth.


Creation indeed does require faith, but the concepts of life coming into existence by abiogenesis is only a concept, which 'if it were to occur' caused life to remain on earth. So basically, if the theory did happen - then that's how life survived on earth. However, the theory in of itself is questionable, so it can't be fact.



We can say its not true, they can say its true. But none of us can prove that a cell came to life during the early earth period. They can only say 'If it happened... thats how life started on earth.'

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Trumble
06-03-2008, 05:53 PM
Who can be more irrational than those who say: Design is possible without a designer ??
For what seems like the hundredth time NOBODY says "design is possible without a designer". Or at least nobody who knows what the words actually mean. A design must have a designer by definition.

Atheists, who I assume are supposed to be the "irrational" ones here, do not believe there is a design to require a designer.
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Nerd
06-03-2008, 06:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
The issue of evolution and life being formed through the means of abiogenesis (life coming from non life) doesn't have to be true. Scientists can't prove that this is how life originated on earth.

All they can argue is that if abiogenesis took place, then that can be an explanation for how life began on earth.

The big word in that sentence is 'if', because it's just a claim of there's. Even if they use studies to prove that abiogenesis can take place, it doesn't mean that this has to be the method for the origin of life on earth.


Creation indeed does require faith, but the concepts of life coming into existence by abiogenesis is only a concept, which 'if it were to occur' caused life to remain on earth. So basically, if the theory did happen - then that's how life survived on earth. However, the theory in of itself is questionable, so it can't be fact.



We can say its not true, they can say its true. But none of us can prove that a cell came to life during the early earth period. They can only say 'If it happened... thats how life started on earth.'
Where have I denied that, Abiogenesis isn't speculative?

I have clearly stated its speculative, but these speculation based on facts we know. The more evidence it has, the more acceptable. The answer is still being fleshed out, and I'm ready to throw this model away if a new one with stronger evidence comes up or this one is disproved somehow. That answer, although vague, is at least true.

However, experiments were conducted to test this hypothesis. Such as the infamous Miller-Urey experiment.

Or the works of Sidney Fox: who was able to create microspheres
"Arguably Sidney Fox's best-known research was conducted in the 1950s and 1960s, when he studied the spontaneous formation of protein structures. His early work demonstrated that under certain conditions amino acids could spontaneously form small peptides—the first step on the road to the assembly of large proteins. The result was significant because his experimental conditions duplicated conditions that might plausibly have existed early in Earth's history.

Further work revealed that these amino acids and small peptides could be encouraged to form closed spherical membranes, called microspheres. Fox has gone so far as to describe these formations as protocells, protein spheres that could grow and reproduce. They might be an important intermediate step in the origin of life. Microspheres might have served as a stepping stone between simple organic compounds and genuine living cells".

And as I have stated earlier, I am very much looking forward for a better hypothesis than this one, backed with evidence.
Reply

tetsujin
06-04-2008, 02:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by asadxyz
I am yet to know that inspite so much advance in science ,no one has been able to discover complete mystery of human DNA.
Did nature produce PCR ,where ? How ? which lab?
It means "Nature " is the greatest scientest who created such complicated molecules and He is Almighty Allah

My Question is simple how the "matter " was created ? Is it possible that energy can convert into matter ? If so how the energy was created ??
Prove that "something can be created out of nothing" ??
The god of the gaps argumentation points to some currently unexplained phenomena and claims that therefore the explanation is god. There are a few problems with this.

1] Even if in the very next hour one hears of a scientist or philosopher who has constructed a theory to accurately predict the the phenomenon, it's likely that the believer will only point to it and state that it doesn't explain "why" the phenomenon occurs. So let's get one thing straight. Even if all the natural wonders of the world were explicable and dissected and presented without the need to invoke a divine creator, it's not likely to be enough. As the argument goes, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. However, one must have at least some evidence for a theory before it can be seriously considered. To state that despite the lack of any evidence a theory is plausible is simply disingenuous. Please stop using personal incredulity as an argument for design.

2] Every time you make the argument that we don't know "X" and therefore god exists, and then a while later we discover what "X" is, your god hypothesis shrinks. The very concept of god as a mysterious entity, to say nothing of the omniscience or benevolence, loses ground. Grandiose claims about the cosmos or the intricate details of the physical world without any a priori, falsifiable, testable, arguments are simply useless when it comes to helping us as a civilization advance.



By the way, National Geographic will map out your DNA and provide you with the details of your ancestry for a nominal fee of 100 dollars. It's well worth the money.

https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/





How was matter created? I'm sure you've heard of Stephen Hawking. Please read A Brief History of Time, Chapter 8

http://www.submarineinstitute.com/us...ry_of_time.pdf

His book is easily available online and written so that those without maths or physics degrees can understand.




All the best wishes,


Faysal
Reply

asadxyz
06-04-2008, 02:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin
The god of the gaps argumentation points to some currently unexplained phenomena and claims that therefore the explanation is god. There are a few problems with this.

1] Even if in the very next hour one hears of a scientist or philosopher who has constructed a theory to accurately predict the the phenomenon, it's likely that the believer will only point to it and state that it doesn't explain "why" the phenomenon occurs. So let's get one thing straight. Even if all the natural wonders of the world were explicable and dissected and presented without the need to invoke a divine creator, it's not likely to be enough. As the argument goes, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. However, one must have at least some evidence for a theory before it can be seriously considered. To state that despite the lack of any evidence a theory is plausible is simply disingenuous. Please stop using personal incredulity as an argument for design.

2] Every time you make the argument that we don't know "X" and therefore god exists, and then a while later we discover what "X" is, your god hypothesis shrinks. The very concept of god as a mysterious entity, to say nothing of the omniscience or benevolence, loses ground. Grandiose claims about the cosmos or the intricate details of the physical world without any a priori, falsifiable, testable, arguments are simply useless when it comes to helping us as a civilization advance.



By the way, National Geographic will map out your DNA and provide you with the details of your ancestry for a nominal fee of 100 dollars. It's well worth the money.

https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/





How was matter created? I'm sure you've heard of Stephen Hawking. Please read A Brief History of Time, Chapter 8

http://www.submarineinstitute.com/us...ry_of_time.pdf

His book is easily available online and written so that those without maths or physics degrees can understand.




All the best wishes,


Faysal
Dear Faysal
My simple question if God does not exist then how
-matter came into existance ?
-Energy came into existance ?
Provide the proof/evidence
Reply

tetsujin
06-04-2008, 03:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by asadxyz
Dear Faysal
My simple question if God does not exist then how
-matter came into existance ?
-Energy came into existance ?
Provide the proof/evidence


Dear asadxyz

I gave you a link to a book, and I also gave you the chapter number. It is only 28 pages and should take about 1 hour if read very slowly.

http://www.submarineinstitute.com/us...ry_of_time.pdf

Within those pages is the framework of a probable theory that does not need a god in the model. Once you read that, if you have any counterpoints I will gladly debate it or provide necessary examples. But I don't feel the need to copy and paste all of that into this post. Just click the link.



In any case, you cannot explain something you don't understand with something you don't understand. Every day I hear religionists claim that we cannot understand god. Why they try to then use god to explain something else that is not understood I do not know....



All the best wishes,



Faysal
Reply

asadxyz
06-04-2008, 05:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin
Dear asadxyz

I gave you a link to a book, and I also gave you the chapter number. It is only 28 pages and should take about 1 hour if read very slowly.

http://www.submarineinstitute.com/us...ry_of_time.pdf

Within those pages is the framework of a probable theory that does not need a god in the model. Once you read that, if you have any counterpoints I will gladly debate it or provide necessary examples. But I don't feel the need to copy and paste all of that into this post. Just click the link.



In any case, you cannot explain something you don't understand with something you don't understand. Every day I hear religionists claim that we cannot understand god. Why they try to then use god to explain something else that is not understood I do not know....



All the best wishes,



Faysal
I do not believe in self concocted theories ,I believe in facts.These theories are to befool those who have no brain to think and are ready to believe Tom ,Dick and Harry.

If you have some proof ,bring forward otherwise I have no intention to prolong with this debate without any reason.If anone cannot conceive such a minor understanding the Quran says:

وَلَقَدْ ذَرَأْنَا لِجَهَنَّمَ كَثِيرًا مِّنَ الْجِنِّ وَالإِنسِ لَهُمْ قُلُوبٌ لاَّ يَفْقَهُونَ بِهَا وَلَهُمْ أَعْيُنٌ لاَّ يُبْصِرُونَ بِهَا وَلَهُمْ آذَانٌ لاَّ يَسْمَعُونَ بِهَا أُوْلَـئِكَ كَالأَنْعَامِ بَلْ هُمْ أَضَلُّ أُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الْغَافِلُونَ﴿7:179﴾
(7:179) And certainly We have created for Hell many of the jinn and mankind; *140 they have hearts with which they fail to understand; and they have eyes with which they fail to see; and they have cars with which they fail to hear. They are like cattle - indeed, even more astray. Such are utterly heedless.
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Trumble
06-04-2008, 07:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by asadxyz
These theories are to befool those who have no brain to think and are ready to believe Tom ,Dick and Harry.
Don't be ridiculous, they are not meant to 'befool' anybody. They are a genuine and sincere attempt to best understand reality by those who are not willing to throw in the intellectual towel and assign responsibility for anything they don't understand to God.
Reply

asadxyz
06-04-2008, 10:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Don't be ridiculous, they are not meant to 'befool' anybody. They are a genuine and sincere attempt to best understand reality by those who are not willing to throw in the intellectual towel and assign responsibility for anything they don't understand to God.
Unfortunately inspite of all this beating about the bush by "theory believers" have not been able to explain
-How did matter come into existance ?
-How did Energy come into existance ??
But the answer is not difficult if one follows rationality.
Reply

Nerd
06-04-2008, 10:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by asadxyz
Just a "........." hypothesis.Any proof ??
Can any create human DNA just mixing up hydrogen ,Oxygen and nitrogen atoms today with all possible resources available? If no why to presume such type of hypothesis which are so ridiculous?
Bro, your first question was can we create DNA. To which I have given you couple of studies conducted to look into the matter. It is possible.
(Have a look through the thread).
Reply

asadxyz
06-04-2008, 12:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nerd
Bro, your first question was can we create DNA. To which I have given you couple of studies conducted to look into the matter. It is possible.
(Have a look through the thread).
Dear Nerd
I do not know if you are aware of this fact that whole DNA (including coding and non coding regions) of every body is different from each other.It is the basis of DNA finger printing.
Again my question to Theory believers :
-How did matter come into existance ?
-How did energy come into exitance ?
Reply

Nerd
06-04-2008, 12:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by asadxyz
Dear Nerd
I do not know if you are aware of this fact that whole DNA (including coding and non coding regions) of every body is different from each other.It is the basis of DNA finger printing.
I am aware, that DNA is unique for everyone, and that it is composed of introns and exons and "gene"s. But I don't understand how that completely refutes the hypothesis of primodial soup.
Reply

asadxyz
06-04-2008, 01:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nerd
I am aware, that DNA is unique for everyone, and that it is composed of introns and exons and "gene"s. But I don't understand how that completely refutes the hypothesis of primodial soup.
If you aware of this much then you must be knowing that just mixing of atoms/molecules cannot create DNA.If it were so then scienctists had not gone throug recombinant technology or PCR .
They have to use recombinant technology just to produce a very small and simple molecule of Insulin.
To create sooooooooooooooooooooooo mmmmmmmmmmmaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnyyyyyyyyyy DNAs unique to everyone only some "super power " can do and that is Almighty Creator.
Reply

Azy
06-04-2008, 02:27 PM
-How did Allah cause matter to come into existance ?
-How did Allah cause energy to come into exitance ?
Provide proof that we can test.

If you're going to say "Qur'an is proof", then please don't even bother answering.
Reply

asadxyz
06-04-2008, 02:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
-How did Allah cause matter to come into existance ?
-How did Allah cause energy to come into exitance ?
Provide proof that we can test.

If you're going to say "Qur'an is proof", then please don't even bother answering.
Counter questions indicate you have become helpless to answer my questions.
Allah is all powerful He can do whatever he likes.He created this Universe and Matter and Energy.
He rises the Sun daily and brings Nights.Call your super Powers to revert it .
Reply

Gator
06-04-2008, 02:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by asadxyz
Again my question to Theory believers :
-How did matter come into existance ?
-How did energy come into exitance ?
Hi there, If this isn't just for Nerd, I'll take a whack. Just to show how I think about things.

If your looking for 100% provable knowledge, the answer to both is I don't know.

If you want to know what I think.
-I believe matter came into being from E=mc^2.
-I believe energy was released from the the basic fabric of the universe which is eternal. My guess is that all the energy in the universe acutally adds up to zero and thus ex-nihilo creation.

Just my opinion.

Thanks.
Reply

tetsujin
06-04-2008, 03:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by asadxyz
Counter questions indicate you have become helpless to answer my questions.
Allah is all powerful He can do whatever he likes.He created this Universe and Matter and Energy.
He rises the Sun daily and brings Nights.Call your super Powers to revert it .
Actually, Brahman is the all powerful one. And he transcends all matter, energy, time, space, being, and everything beyond in this Universe.

Even if you prayed for 50 years straight to Allah, you couldn't reverse the rotation of the earth or reduce Mt. Everest to sandy beach.



Joking aside, have you ever heard of the casimir effect or zero point energy?

No?

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/9747

Enjoy your reading. It even has the names o researchers that have don't the experiments and measure the force.

format_quote Originally Posted by http://www.vuletic.com/hume/cefec/1-1.html
(ii) Can something come from nothing?

Even were we to assume, against physics, that there was some time prior to the origin of the universe when there was nothing except time, it is unclear what problem this would supposedly raise. There certainly is no logical contradiction in imagining there being nothing at one point in time and then there being something at a later point in time; it is not as though we are talking about "nothing" somehow metamorphosing into an existent something. Although the proposition that something cannot come from nothing (like the proposition that the Earth is flat) traditionally has been a matter of "common sense," it actually (like so much "common sense") reflects only popular prejudice and lacks rigorous logical support. It is not that we know something can come from nothing; it is just that the opposite cannot simply be taken for granted.

(iia) Is it observed? One argument against the idea of something coming from nothing is that we never observe such things happening. I suspect this kind of reasoning is always in the back of the mind of the average man, and explains why the idea is so counterintuitive. However, if we are talking about empty space when we talk about "nothing," then it actually is not true that we never observe things come from nothing: the quantum mechanical uncertainty principle allows for particle-antiparticle pairs to spontaneously appear out of empty space for very brief periods of time. These virtual particles (or quantum vacuum fluctuations) are ubiquitous, and create measurable effects such as the Casimir-Polder force and the Lamb shift. Some physicists have even invoked the same kind of mechanisms to generate theories of the origin of the entire universe from a background of empty spacetime (Tryon 1973).

One can, of course respond that virtual particles do not in fact appear out of nothing, because they occur in a background of spacetime in which quantum mechanics operates. While true, this response undermines the claim that we know from observation that nothing can come into existence out of nothing, since the closest thing to nothing that we are ever able to observe is empty spacetime.

(iib) Does it require self-creation? Another argument against the idea of something coming from nothing is that the idea supposedly requires self-creation, which is impossible since nothing can have causal power before it exists. For instance, creationists often assert that to say that the universe came from nothing is to say that it created itself. But this is not so: the idea of the universe "coming from nothing" commits one only to the view that at one time there was nothing, and then at a later time, the universe existed. Talk of causation, much less self-causation, does not need to enter the picture at all.

vacuum fluctuations, particle and antiparticle generation, baryogenesis



Do you believe in gravity, or electromagnetic forces? The "self-concocted" theories would not work if the were not based on observable fact. Unless you wish to believe that god, through his divine will, actively helps to keep us on the ground attracted towards the centre of our earth, the centre of our solar system, the centre of our galaxy, etc... then you have to provide proof for that. Do you understand why we still say the theory of gravity, and not the law of gravity? Basic understandings of what qualifies as a credible/respectable theory in science is needed before you can label anything as self-concocted in an attempt to discredit it.

Besides, the clothes you wear and the computer you're using was all based on self-concocted theories. You rely on them to get through each and every day.

If you want the proof, the mathematics has been done and the practical application are seen every day in micromachined devices, satellites, even the computer you're using.

Whether you're quoting the Rig Veda or the Qu'ran, claiming god did it is not an explanation at all as it lacks proof in every department.



Al the best wishes,



Faysal
Reply

Azy
06-04-2008, 03:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by asadxyz
Counter questions indicate you have become helpless to answer my questions.
Allah is all powerful He can do whatever he likes.He created this Universe and Matter and Energy.
He rises the Sun daily and brings Nights.Call your super Powers to revert it .
format_quote Originally Posted by asadxyz
You prove this hypothesis because burden of proof is the responsiblity of the person who claims.
I was hoping for something more along the lines of...
"Allah is all powerful He can do whatever he likes, the proof/evidence I have is..."
Reply

asadxyz
06-04-2008, 03:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin
Actually, Brahman is the all powerful one. And he transcends all matter, energy, time, space, being, and everything beyond in this Universe.

Even if you prayed for 50 years straight to Allah, you couldn't reverse the rotation of the earth or reduce Mt. Everest to sandy beach.



Joking aside, have you ever heard of the casimir effect or zero point energy?

No?

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/9747

Enjoy your reading. It even has the names o researchers that have don't the experiments and measure the force.




vacuum fluctuations, particle and antiparticle generation, baryogenesis



Do you believe in gravity, or electromagnetic forces? The "self-concocted" theories would not work if the were not based on observable fact. Unless you wish to believe that god, through his divine will, actively helps to keep us on the ground attracted towards the centre of our earth, the centre of our solar system, the centre of our galaxy, etc... then you have to provide proof for that. Do you understand why we still say the theory of gravity, and not the law of gravity? Basic understandings of what qualifies as a credible/respectable theory in science is needed before you can label anything as self-concocted in an attempt to discredit it.

Besides, the clothes you wear and the computer you're using was all based on self-concocted theories. You rely on them to get through each and every day.

If you want the proof, the mathematics has been done and the practical application are seen every day in micromachined devices, satellites, even the computer you're using.

Whether you're quoting the Rig Veda or the Qu'ran, claiming god did it is not an explanation at all as it lacks proof in every department.



Al the best wishes,



Faysal
You are beating about the bush because you do not have answer to my question.If God did not create all this matter and energy then
-How did matter come into existance ?
-How did energy come into existance?
If you have no answer to these questions then only possibility remains that there is a SuperPower who created them,.Very rational approach.Think like a scientists ,do not believe hearsay and self concocted theories which today accepted and very next day rebutted.
Allah knew and created the cloning process.Science could not detect it till 20th century.But Allah told us centuries ago that procreation is possible without mating of a male and female.Example Birth of Prophet Jesus PBUH in the Quran.
Could science believe just a few years back ?
Reply

asadxyz
06-04-2008, 03:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
I was hoping for something more along the lines of...
"Allah is all powerful He can do whatever he likes, the proof/evidence I have is..."
None of your fault.This is in built defect in the group to which you belong to.
No rational thinking at all.
Best of luck
Reply

Azy
06-04-2008, 03:46 PM
Why is it that I require proof and you do not? Surely a perfectly rational viewpoint such as yours must have overwhelming evidence.
Reply

Gator
06-04-2008, 03:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by asadxyz
If you have no answer to these questions then only possibility remains that there is a SuperPower who created them,.Very rational approach.
I disagree.

If I don't know how a magic trick is done, then the only possibility is that the magician is actually using magic?

Thanks.
Reply

tetsujin
06-04-2008, 04:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by asadxyz
You are beating about the bush because you do not have answer to my question.If God did not create all this matter and energy then
-How did matter come into existance ?
-How did energy come into existance?
If you have no answer to these questions then only possibility remains that there is a SuperPower who created them,.Very rational approach.Think like a scientists ,do not believe hearsay and self concocted theories which today accepted and very next day rebutted.
Allah knew and created the cloning process.Science could not detect it till 20th century.But Allah told us centuries ago that procreation is possible without mating of a male and female.Example Birth of Prophet Jesus PBUH in the Quran.
Could science believe just a few years back ?


Are you telling me that Jesus (peace be upon him) was a clone of his mother (arguably a female)?



How am I beating around the bush? You're obviously not reading a single word of those links. How about a link to a website for CERN, They create matter and anti-matter all the time. It's costly, and not efficient, but enough for studying the laws of nature.

If you have a genuine interest in finding the answers, then I've given them to you.

http://askanexpert.web.cern.ch/AskAn...matter-en.html



Your rationality is that there can only be two theories. If theory A has immense credibility, evidence, practical applications, but no absolute proof, then by your logic theory B has to be true even if there's no credibility, evidence, or practical application or proof.

That's wonderful. You've demonstrated quite clearly that you've never had a proper education in science or the scientific method. The fact that you think presenting work that has already been done in the field is beating around the bush leads me to wonder if you even read what I provided for you. If you don't want to read it, just say so, it'll save you time and frustration.


All the best wishes,



Faysal
Reply

asadxyz
06-04-2008, 08:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin
Are you telling me that Jesus (peace be upon him) was a clone of his mother (arguably a female)?



That's wonderful. You've demonstrated quite clearly that you've never had a proper education in science or the scientific method. The fact that you think presenting work that has already been done in the field is beating around the bush leads me to wonder if you even read what I provided for you. If you don't want to read it, just say so, it'll save you time and frustration.


All the best wishes,



Faysal
You probably do not know there can by XX males and XY females.How clone of Jesus occured still a mystery as it was a mystery till a few years back that male/female gametes are essential for procreation.Birth of the Holy Prophet will be fully revealed inshallah.
For the sake of you information I am practicing scientific person who does not like to beat about the bush and do not believe hearsay because I have my rationally working mind not like those who run after concocted theories and call them facts.
Best of luck
Reply

tetsujin
06-05-2008, 01:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by asadxyz
You probably do not know there can by XX males and XY females.How clone of Jesus occured still a mystery as it was a mystery till a few years back that male/female gametes are essential for procreation.
Best of luck

Actually I do, so was Mary an XY female and/or was Jesus the XX male?
Reply

asadxyz
06-05-2008, 02:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin
Actually I do, so was Mary an XY female and/or was Jesus the XX male?
It is yet to be discovered whether he was XX male or there is some still hidden process which is beyond the reach of present knowledge.But one thing is sure that "Islam is the only religion which claimed the birth of human being without combination of gametes ".{Long Live Islam}.Islam has been target of criticism by the irrational group who can just believe in theories of Tom ,Dick and Harry for 1500yrs.
This is known as "The Truth"
Allaho Akbar.
Reply

tetsujin
06-05-2008, 02:15 AM
So Mary was a normal, pious, young woman? No odd genetic traits?
Reply

asadxyz
06-05-2008, 02:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin
So Mary was a normal, pious, young woman? No odd genetic traits?
Of course she was a pious lady having very strong character because she was not an atheist.
Person who is not atheist is morally sound .
Reply

tetsujin
06-05-2008, 02:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by asadxyz
Of course she was a pious lady having very strong character because she was not an atheist.
Person who is not atheist is morally sound .


I meant, could you say that she was a genetically normal female (not X, or XY, or XXX, etc...)
Reply

جوري
06-05-2008, 02:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by asadxyz
It is yet to be discovered whether he was XX male or there is some still hidden process which is beyond the reach of present knowledge.But one thing is sure that "Islam is the only religion which claimed the birth of human being without combination of gametes ".{Long Live Islam}.Islam has been target of criticism by the irrational group who can just believe in theories of Tom ,Dick and Harry for 1500yrs.
This is known as "The Truth"
Allaho Akbar.
XX males suffer azospermia amongst other things, and Jesus (p) was a perfect being.. all Allah swt need do is order something to be and it shall be!

We don't wonder the genetic traits of Adam anymore than we do Jesus (p)!

There is a break in causality no matter the approach.. whether an atheist believing we have all egressed by way of abiogenesis itself a product of a zero splitting or whether you believe Allah swt created us.

Genetics and molecular biology is a very complicated process and has no room on this thread. least of which as it encroaches upon sacrilege!

I am going to ask a mod to close this thread, if you don't mind

:w:
Reply

tetsujin
06-05-2008, 02:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
I am going to ask a mod to close this thread, if you don't mind

:w:



I would mind, but seeing as how atheists are by definition immoral it would not matter.

I actually wanted to know where he is going with this Jesus is a clone of Mary Theory.
Reply

جوري
06-05-2008, 02:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin
I would mind, but seeing as how atheists are by definition immoral it would not matter.

I actually wanted to know where he is going with this Jesus is a clone of Mary Theory.
What you mind or don't mind is of no consequence to me, further, this isn't the first thread of its kind.. in fact we have one just like it bearing the exact title, floating here somewhere on health and sci!..

Talking about God's messengers in such a way encroaches upon sacrilege!
Frankly I don't care much where you get your entertainment.. but I care much, that, that which is sacred remains so, at least as far as Muslims are concerned. You can carry out your amusements on dawkins.net

cheers
Reply

asadxyz
06-05-2008, 02:37 AM
Agreed with you sister !00%
Reply

tetsujin
06-05-2008, 02:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
What you mind or don't mind is of no consequence to me, further, this isn't the first thread of its kind.. in fact we have one just like it bearing the exact title, floating here somewhere on health and sci!..

Talking about God's messengers in such a way encroaches upon sacrilege!
Frankly I don't care much where you get your entertainment.. but I care much, that, that which is sacred remains so, at least as far as Muslims are concerned. You can carry out your amusements on dawkins.net

cheers
It's really not about my amusement. If I wanted to be entertained I could be doing other wholesome things.

It's a matter of getting a single story about a fundamental belief. I've always thought that as a muslim you would never question the perfection of each of god's messengers. So this was something new. Who needs to be corrected, I don't know, but suppressing the dialogue only creates more animosity.

All the best wishes,


Faysal
Reply

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