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Nerd
06-15-2008, 12:33 AM
Here are the three translation of the verse 49 of Surah 51.

YUSUFALI: And of every thing We have created pairs: That ye may receive instruction.

PICKTHAL: And all things We have created by pairs, that haply ye may reflect.

SHAKIR: And of everything We have created pairs that you may be mindful.

Does "everything" here, also include biological organisms?

Because there are a number of organisms that can reproduce asexually such as bacterial cells.

At first glance, some may consider it a blunder in the Holy Quran. How does one counter such arguments and explain this verse?
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The_Prince
06-15-2008, 12:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nerd
Here are the three translation of the verse 46 of Surah 51.

YUSUFALI: And of every thing We have created pairs: That ye may receive instruction.

PICKTHAL: And all things We have created by pairs, that haply ye may reflect.

SHAKIR: And of everything We have created pairs that you may be mindful.

Does "everything" here, also include biological organisms?

Because there are a number of organisms that can reproduce asexually such as bacterial cells.

At first glance, some may consider it a blunder in the Holy Quran. How does one counter such arguments and explain this verse?
creating in pairs doesnt mean each living being has another one to have sex with and reproduce. rather creating things in pairs means heaven-hell, life-death, heavens-earth, belief-disbelief, asexual-sexual, man-woman, happy-sad, etc etc
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AntiKarateKid
06-15-2008, 01:08 AM
another explanation is the existence of anti matter

for example every particle of hydrogen has an anti hydrogen for it

keep in mind, some parts of the Quran are still being proven by science today such as the existence of antimatter
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Nerd
06-15-2008, 01:13 AM
Why is that we take into account "anti-matter" when we exclude asexually reproducing species?
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AntiKarateKid
06-15-2008, 01:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nerd
Why is that we take into account "anti-matter" when we exclude asexually reproducing species?
No, Allah created EVERYTHING in pairs. The asexuala rgument comes into play when we say Allah created all animals in pairs which implies sexual relations which leads to the asexual question

The proper translation is that Allah created EVERYthing in pairs though some people translate it into " all animals". Everthing in pairs could refer to what the other brother posted before me or the fact taht all matter or "everything" has an assigned antiparticle which makes it a pair. Keep in mind most of these so called " mistakes" stem from the disbelivers willfully translating the Quran in ways that dont make sense.


If i tell you I love french fries but hate rotten food, you say " oh but there are rotten fries too so you are contradicting yourself". The whole thing is retarded, I like french fries but obviously not rotten ones


My example is poor really but it kinda captures waht I mean. Science provides us insight intot he meanings of the Quran in the ways that for ambiguous terms such as "all things", it clariefies it and shows us which translation is the proper one out of all of them if it is unclear.
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AntiKarateKid
06-15-2008, 02:02 AM
Any other brothers or sisters like to comment? I gave my opinion but I'm sure there are better ones out there! :D
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Trumble
06-15-2008, 02:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
for example every particle of hydrogen has an anti hydrogen for it
No it doesn't. You might want to get the physics right before conjouring up Qur'anic 'references' to it.
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AntiKarateKid
06-15-2008, 03:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
No it doesn't. You might want to get the physics right before conjouring up Qur'anic 'references' to it.
Meh I admit I am not good at physics, but from what I read at sites, the existence of antiparticles was an explaination, Ill admit I dont remember the details, you can look that up yourself.
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جوري
06-15-2008, 03:49 AM
وَقَوْمَ نُوحٍ مِّن قَبْلُ إِنَّهُمْ كَانُوا قَوْمًا فَاسِقِينَ {46}
[Pickthal 51:46] And the folk of Noah aforetime. Lo! they were licentious folk.

for starters this is what sura 51 verse 46 states...

it is important to check your sources if you wish to sustain a debate in a particular topic better yet pick up the Quran and question directly rather than the circuitous route....

:w:
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جوري
06-15-2008, 03:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Meh I admit I am not good at physics, but from what I read at sites, the existence of antiparticles was an explaination, Ill admit I dont remember the details, you can look that up yourself.
I believe this is what you were looking for?
http://www.alrisala.org/Articles/relgsci/pairs.htm

Everything Created in Pairs
Maulana Wahiduddin Khan


The Qur’an says: And all things We made in pairs, so that you may give thought. (51:49)

Everything is in accordance with this law of nature. Nothing is complete without its pair. So this world must also have a pair, for only then will it be complete. It is this pair of the present world that is called the hereafter.

It was known in ancient times that there were pairs in the human and animal worlds. Later on man learnt of pairs in trees and plants. In 1928, however, it was discovered that solid matter also had a pair. In that year the British physicist Paul Dirac demonstrated the possibility of other, invisible particles existing alongside those of matter. Then, in 1932, K. Anderson discovered, while studying cosmic rays, that with electrons there were other particles with an opposite electric charge. These particles were called anti-electrons. This research was pursued further and finally it was learnt that all particles in the universe existed in the form of pair-particles: particle and anti-particle, atom and anti-atom, matter and anti-matter; there was even, as Dirac showed in 1933, an anti-world.

Many present-day scientists are of the opinion that this anti-world is an entity apart from us, having a parallel existence of its own. This world is made up of matter; according to the law of opposites there should be another world made up of anti-matter. It is estimated that 20 million years ago, when the Big Bang explosion occurred, photon-matter and anti-matter came together in two separate forms. The two then started to form the world and the anti-world.

The first people to work on this theory were a Swedish pair, physicist Osker Klein and astrophysicist Hannes Alven. The results of their research were published in 1963. The Soviet mathematician, Dr Gustav Naan, further consolidated the theory. According to him, the anti-world cannot be fully explained by known theories and laws of physics, yet he is convinced that the anti-world exists, even now. It is, however, independent of us, existing on its own, parallel to this world. In the present world all anti-particles are in an unstable condition; but in the anti-world they will all be stable, for the nuclei of atoms have a negative electric charge, while electrons are positively charged.Since this world is ephemeral, it follows that the anti-world, or to use its religious term, the hereafter, must be an eternal world. The discoveries of modern science, then, have given us a picture of the next world which accords with that of the Qur’an.

[components/artnhome.htm]
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Nerd
06-15-2008, 04:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
وَقَوْمَ نُوحٍ مِّن قَبْلُ إِنَّهُمْ كَانُوا قَوْمًا فَاسِقِينَ {46}
[Pickthal 51:46] And the folk of Noah aforetime. Lo! they were licentious folk.

for starters this is what sura 51 verse 46 states...

it is important to check your sources if you wish to sustain a debate in a particular topic better yet pick up the Quran and question directly rather than the circuitous route....

:w:
Thank you so much for pointing that out, I apologize. I was referring to verse 49 of surah 51.

Here is where I got the translation from USC
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جوري
06-15-2008, 04:16 AM
It isn't a prob.. I thought you got it from an anti-Islamic website? If it were the case, I feel the least they could do is grant you the courtesy of quoting verses in an accurate manner....

I'll have to ask a scholar on this one.. I can't simply carry out an exegesis out of whimsey...

I have a couple of very probable explanations but I think it best to seek the judgement of larned scholars first..

peace and g'night

:w:
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Azy
06-15-2008, 09:37 AM
The photon does not have an anti-particle.

Also the Big Bang is not believed to have happened 20 million years ago as stated in that text.
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جوري
06-15-2008, 04:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
The photon does not have an anti-particle.

Also the Big Bang is not believed to have happened 20 million years ago as stated in that text.
Photons, Neutrinos, And Their Anti-Particles
In his popular book "QED" Richard Feynman wrote

"Every particle in nature has an amplitude to move backwards
in time, and therefore has an anti-particle... Photons look
exactly the same in all respects when they travel backwards
in time...so they are their own anti-particles."

Now the question is, what does it mean to "look exactly the same"?
Should we consider extrinsic as well as intrinsic properties? Usually
when thinking about the identity of a particle we restrict ourselves
to the intrinsic properties. For a trivial example, a Volkswagon in
Miami is considered to be "the same" as a Volkswagon in Baltimore,
even though they occupy very different positions relative to the rest
of the material world. Thus we "abstract away" spatial translations
to help classify and identify objects. Similarly we tend to "abstract
away" differences in orientation as well as differences in velocity
(both translational and angular).

But what about a relation between an object's angular velocity and
it's translational velocity? Suppose every basketball we see is both
translating and spinning, with the spin oriented parallel to its
velocity. We might then say that there are two kinds of basketballs,
those that spin clockwise (when viewed from "the front") and those
that spin counter-clockwise. On the other hand (so to speak), if we
wished, we could easily abstract this difference away. It's really
only an extrinsic distinction. Of course, on some level, every
distinction is "only extrinsic", e.g., it isn't clear how charge or
mass could even be defined without reference to some extrinsic
interactions.

This shows that the usefulness of abstractions depends not so much on
the intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy as it does on the _immutability_ of
properties. A Volkswagon can be moved from Miami to Baltimore, and we
can take any given basketball and spin it any way we like, so we are
inclined to abstract away these differences. In contrast, it's not so
easy to change the mass of an electron, so mass is a useful parameter
for classifying (and distinguishing between) particles.

Now consider what Eisberg and Resnick say on the subject of particles
and anti-particles:

"There is an obvious distinction between a particle and and its
anti-particle if they are charged, because their charges are of
opposite sign. The distinction is more subtle if the particle
and antiparticle are neutral, like the neutrino and antineutrino.
Nevertheless, there really is a distinction... the component of
intrinsic spin angular momentum along the direction of motion is
always -hbar/2 for a neutrino and +hbar/2 for an antineutrino."

It's not unreasonable to ask if it's useful to make this distinction
between neutrinos and anti-neutrinos. Is this percieved difference
in the direction of spin really an invariant, immutable, property?
Notice that it depends on the "direction of motion" of the particle.
But is this "direction" an inherent property of the particle, or
simply a circumstance of the particle? As Feynman observes with
regard to a photon, emitted at point A and absorbed at point B, we
can just as well regard the transaction as an emission from B and
absorption at A.

"As far as calculating (and Nature) is concerned, it's all
the same (and it's all possible), so we simply say a photon
is 'exchanged'..."

Thus, the "direction of travel" of a photon is, in a sense, ambiguous.
This might be seen as just another way of saying that a photon happens
to be its own anti-particle, but this is related to the fact that
photons "travel" along null spacetime intervals, and it has possible
implications for neutrinos.

Eisberg and Resnick describe the Wu experiment which showed that
parity is not conserved in beta decay. They go on to say that this
fact is due to the helicity of the antineutrino. By "helicity" they
mean the "handedness" of the intrinsic spin angular momentum along
the direction of motion, which is always -hbar/2 for a neutrino and
+hbar/2 for an antineutrino. Moreover, they continue,

"...it is not possible for an antineutrino, or a neutrino,
to have a definite helicity...unless its rest mass is zero.
If it had a non-zero rest mass, it would travel with velocity
less than c, and we could always find a moving frame of
reference in which its linear momentum would be reversed
in direction... But the Goldhaber experiment shows that
antineutrinos and neutrinos do have definite helicities...
so we can conclude that their rest masses are zero..."

How can this be reconciled with the idea that neutrinos may actually
have non-zero rest mass? If neutrinos have mass, must we then
conclude that they do not have definite helicity after all?

Of course, any assertion of empirical results should be qualified
by the phrase "within experimental accuracy". Some people have
suggested that there is something "weird" about Eisberg and Resnik's
line of reasoning (quoted from the 2nd Edition of "Quantum Physics"),
but compare their comments with the following remarks taken from
"Subatomic Physics" by Frauenfelder and Henley:

"Is the assignment of a lepton number meaningful and correct?
We first notice that a positive answer defies intuition.
Altogether four neutrinos exist, electron and muon neutrino
and their two anti-particles. Neutrinos have no charge or
mass; they possess only spin and momentum. How can such a
simple particle appear in four versions? If, on the other
hand, it turns out that the neutrino and anti-neutrino are
identical, then the assignment of a lepton number is wrong...

The results from the neutrino reactions are corroborated
by other experiments, and the fact has to be faced that
neutrino and anti-neutrino are different. The neutrino
always has its spin opposite to its direction of motion,
while the anti-neutrino has parallel spin and momentum.
In other words, the neutrino is a left-handed and the
anti-neutrino a right-handed particle. Such a situation
is compatible with lepton conservation only if the
neutrinos have no mass. Massless particles move with
the velocity of light, and a right-handed particle remains
right-handed in any coordinate system. For a massive
particle, a Lorentz transformation along the momentum
can be performed in such a way that the [direction of]
momentum is reversed in the new coordinate system. The
[direction of the] spin, however,...is not changed...
A massive anti-neutrino would change into a neutrino, and
the lepton number would not be conserved."

This seems quite consistent with Eisberg and Resnick.

So, should we regard the lepton number as a meaningful and conserved
quantity? If the only distinction between the neutrino (L=+1) and
the anti-neutrino (L=-1) is their helicity, and if this is not
Lorentz-invariant, then it seems to follow that lepton number is
not conserved, and the absolute distinction between neutrino
and anti-neutrino disappears. Is this a necessary conclusion
if it should turn out that neutrinos have mass?

Georg Kreyerhoff says that if neutrinos are massive, we can't
assign lepton numbers according to their helicities, and in this
case helicity is not the only distinction between neutrinos and
anti-neutrinos. He goes on to outline two possiblities for
massive neutrinos:

1) The neutrino is a Dirac fermion, which means a fermion described
by the Dirac equation. It would be on the same footing as the
electron or the muon, which also are Dirac fermions, which have
a mass and lepton number, two possible helicities and an anti-
particle, which also has two possible helicities, but opposite
charge and lepton number. Lepton number is conserved in this
scenario.

2) The neutrino is a Majorana fermion. For such a fermion the charge
conjugate state ( the antiparticle ) is (up to a possible phase
factor) equal to the parity transformed state, so the neutrino can
be considered to be its own antiparticle. Such a neutrino would
indeed violate lepton number conservation and the search for
lepton number violating processes is actually a matter of current
experiments. The process searched for is the neutrinoless double
beta decay ( N(Z) -> N(Z+2) + e^- + e^- ) which violates lepton
number by two and involves a massive Majorana-neutrino as an
intermediate virtual particle. [N(Z) means a nucleus of charge Z.]


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You are as qualified as the next blogger to make a guesstimate at the age of such or the age of such.. your opinion is also as pedestrian as the next blogger.. Until I see your thesis in a scientific journal that is peer reviewed.. I'd refrain from speaking with such authority on any topic.. it just makes you look so foolish.. Anyone can google and come up with evidence for or against .. as I have just done in the Quote above...

cheers
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Nerd
06-15-2008, 05:43 PM
Why do I get the feeling we are side stepping the topic?

Anyhow, does that verse: when it says "everything" was created in pairs include organisms that reproduce asexually (as I understand they do not require a mate) or are we misinterpreting the verse here?
Reply

جوري
06-15-2008, 05:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nerd
Why do I get the feeling we are side stepping the topic?

Anyhow, does that verse: when it says "everything" was created in pairs include organisms that reproduce asexually (as I understand they do not require a mate) or are we misinterpreting the verse here?
You are not misrepresenting the verse, and I can get into various modes of asexual reproduction that would require either fission, conjugation, budding, parthogenesis, or spore formation and what it entails in terms of 'pairs' or I could simply include this verse also from the Quran that I believe is very concise and pertains to asexual reproduction from suret yaseen...

سُبْحَانَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ الْأَزْوَاجَ كُلَّهَا مِمَّا تُنبِتُ الْأَرْضُ وَمِنْ أَنفُسِهِمْ وَمِمَّا لَا يَعْلَمُونَ {36}
[Pickthal 36:36] Glory be to Him Who created all the sexual pairs, of that which the earth groweth, and of themselves, and of that which they know not!

Again, this means you need to read the Quran as a whole and not in fragments!


peace
Reply

Nerd
06-15-2008, 06:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
You are not misrepresenting the verse, and I can get into various modes of asexual reproduction that would require either fission, conjugation, budding, parthogenesis, or spore formation and what it entails in terms of 'pairs'
I would really appreciate if you would explain how these various modes of asexual reproduction entails the term "pairs".

format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
or I could simply include this verse also from the Quran that I believe is very concise and pertains to asexual reproduction from suret yaseen...
سُبْحَانَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ الْأَزْوَاجَ كُلَّهَا مِمَّا تُنبِتُ الْأَرْضُ وَمِنْ أَنفُسِهِمْ وَمِمَّا لَا يَعْلَمُونَ {36}
[Pickthal 36:36] Glory be to Him Who created all the sexual pairs, of that which the earth groweth, and of themselves, and of that which they know not!
Again, this means you need to read the Quran as a whole and not in fragments!
peace
Allah Akbar! Thats one verse I haven't come across yet. Thank you so much for brining it up.

And please, I am not trying to say Quran was wrong. But rather am looking for a valid explanation of the verse I referred in my original post.

I totally agree with you that the Holy Quran need to be read as a whole and not in fragments.
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Nerd
06-15-2008, 06:29 PM
Here is Yusuf Ali's translation of the verse you referred to:

036.036
YUSUFALI: Glory to Allah, Who created in pairs all things that the earth produces, as well as their own (human) kind and (other) things of which they have no knowledge.

Maybe we are missing something in the translation?
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جوري
06-15-2008, 06:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nerd
I would really appreciate if you would explain how these various modes of asexual reproduction entails the term "pairs".



Allah Akbar! Thats one verse I haven't come across yet. Thank you so much for brining it up.

And please, I am not trying to say Quran was wrong. But rather am looking for a valid explanation of the verse I referred in my original post.

I totally agree with you that the Holy Quran need to be read as a whole and not in fragments.
Thank you.. I don't mean to come across as abrasive.. my experience is/was, so few non-muslims come here to actually learn... not being able to see tone of voice, or body language..I rely on the context of what is written, which can be quite an innocent question and I sometimes I understand it as an accusation than a simple query...

I was still in the process of looking for a scholarly reply to you, and have found one, but it is in Arabic.. I unfortunately don't have the time to translate it.. I can leave it here for one of the other Arabic memebrs to take a stab at it if they have the time
http://www.elforkan.com/7ewar/showthread.php?t=4381

the gist however is, in the verse above that I have quoted you..

peace
and :w:
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crayon
06-15-2008, 06:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine

سُبْحَانَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ الْأَزْوَاجَ كُلَّهَا مِمَّا تُنبِتُ الْأَرْضُ وَمِنْ أَنفُسِهِمْ وَمِمَّا لَا يَعْلَمُونَ {36}
[Pickthal 36:36] Glory be to Him Who created all the sexual pairs, of that which the earth groweth, and of themselves, and of that which they know not!
I don't even know how many times I've read that aya, and this is the first time I really understand what is being meant. Subhan Allah, thank you sis.
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Nerd
06-15-2008, 06:57 PM
I used google to translate the page you gave Skye (not sure how valid these translations are though) but here : translated page
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crayon
06-15-2008, 07:00 PM
I can attempt a translation, just tell me which part, because I read it all but I'm not sure where the answer is...
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جوري
06-15-2008, 07:20 PM
let's keep the verse standing on its own accord for now, until I find the most scholarly reply in English.. I don't like some of exegesis to text of this importance..

I most certainly wouldn't use a google translator those are hilarious(ly bad)

:w:
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جوري
06-15-2008, 07:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by crayon
I can attempt a translation, just tell me which part, because I read it all but I'm not sure where the answer is...
aslaam 3lykoum wr wb

I found this, which is written by a Dr. Naszhmi musa...
It is probably one of the best I have read on the matter, if you are interested in translating? Or I can pose a question to ask the scholar at http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S.../FatwaCounselE





معجزة علمية



صور لنباتات متنوعة

كتبت منذ (1987م) في كتاب إعجاز النبات في القرآن الكريم و (1996م) في كتاب آيات معجزات من القرآن الكريم وعالم النبات عن أزواج النبات لقوله تعالى ( سُبْحَانَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ الْأَزْوَاجَ كُلَّهَا مِمَّا تُنبِتُ الْأَرْضُ وَمِنْ أَنفُسِهِمْ وَمِمَّا لَا يَعْلَمُونَ{36})[يس: 36] وقوله تعالى: ( أَوَلَمْ يَرَوْا إِلَى الْأَرْضِ كَمْ أَنبَتْنَا فِيهَا مِن كُلِّ زَوْجٍ كَرِيمٍ{7})[الشعراء: 7] .

وقد رأيت أن بعض غير المسلمين يعترضون على قوله تعالى: ( وَمِن كُلِّ شَيْءٍ خَلَقْنَا زَوْجَيْنِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَذَكَّرُونَ{49}) [الذاريات: 49]، فقد رأيت أن أعيد الكتابة في الموضوع في ضوء ما أثير من شبهات، فالزوج في هذه الآية يشمل الذكر والأنثى، والصنفين، والتركيبين:

أولاً: معنى الزوج في القرآن الكريم:

قال الأصفهاني رحمه الله في مفردات ألفاظ القرآن عند بيان معنى الزوج قال:

يقال لكل واحد من القرينين من الذكر والأنثى في الحيوانات المتزاوجة زوج , ولكل قرينين فيها وفي غيرها زوج، كالخف والنعل ولكل ما يقترن بآخر مماثلاً له أو مضادًا: زوج، قال تعالى: (فَجَعَلَ مِنْهُ الزَّوْجَيْنِ الذَّكَرَ وَالْأُنثَى{39})[القيامة 39]، وقال {وَقُلْنَا يَا آدَمُ اسْكُنْ أَنتَ وَزَوْجُكَ الْجَنَّةَ} البقرة 35، وجمع الزوج أزواج . وقوله تعالى ( هُمْ وَأَزْوَاجُهُمْ فِي ظِلَالٍ عَلَى الْأَرَائِكِ مُتَّكِؤُونَ{56})[يس: 56]، ( احْشُرُوا الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا وَأَزْوَاجَهُمْ وَمَا كَانُوا يَعْبُدُونَ{22})[الصافات: 22] أي أقرانهم المقتدين بهم في أفعالهم، ( لاَ تَمُدَّنَّ عَيْنَيْكَ إِلَى مَا مَتَّعْنَا بِهِ أَزْوَاجاً مِّنْهُمْ )[الحجر: 88] أي أشباهًا وأقرانًا، وقوله: ( سُبْحَانَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ الْأَزْوَاجَ كُلَّهَا مِمَّا تُنبِتُ الْأَرْضُ وَمِنْ أَنفُسِهِمْ وَمِمَّا لَا يَعْلَمُونَ{36}) [يس: 36]، ( وَمِن كُلِّ شَيْءٍ خَلَقْنَا زَوْجَيْنِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَذَكَّرُونَ{49})[الذاريات: 49]، فتنبيه أن الأشياء كلها مركبة من جوهر وعَرَض، ومادة وصورة، وأن لا شيء يتعرى من تركيب يقتضي كونه مصنوعًا، وأنه لابد من صانع تنبيهًا إلى أنه تعالى هو الفرد وقوله تعالى: (وَمِن كُلِّ شَيْءٍ خَلَقْنَا زَوْجَيْنِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَذَكَّرُونَ{49})[الذاريات: 49] فبين أن كل ما في العالم زوج من حيث أن له ضد، أو مثلاً ما، أو تركيب ما، بل لا ينفك بوجه من تركيب، وإنما ذكر ههنا زوجين تنبيهًا أن الشيء – وإن لم يكن له ضد ولا مثل – فإنه لا ينفك من تركيب جوهر وعرض، وذلك زوجان، وقوله (الَّذِي جَعَلَ لَكُمُ الْأَرْضَ مَهْداً وَسَلَكَ لَكُمْ فِيهَا سُبُلاً وَأَنزَلَ مِنَ السَّمَاءِ مَاءً فَأَخْرَجْنَا بِهِ أَزْوَاجاً مِّن نَّبَاتٍ شَتَّى{53})[طه: 53]، أي أنواعًا متشابهة، وكذلك (خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ بِغَيْرِ عَمَدٍ تَرَوْنَهَا وَأَلْقَى فِي الْأَرْضِ رَوَاسِيَ أَن تَمِيدَ بِكُمْ وَبَثَّ فِيهَا مِن كُلِّ دَابَّةٍ وَأَنزَلْنَا مِنَ السَّمَاءِ مَاءً فَأَنبَتْنَا فِيهَا مِن كُلِّ زَوْجٍ كَرِيمٍ{10})[لقمان: 10]، (ثَمَانِيَةَ أَزْوَاجٍ مِّنَ الضَّأْنِ اثْنَيْنِ وَمِنَ الْمَعْزِ اثْنَيْنِ قُلْ آلذَّكَرَيْنِ حَرَّمَ أَمِ الأُنثَيَيْنِ أَمَّا اشْتَمَلَتْ عَلَيْهِ أَرْحَامُ الأُنثَيَيْنِ نَبِّؤُونِي بِعِلْمٍ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ{143})[الأنعام: 143] أي أصناف وقوله تعالى: (وكنتم أزواج ثلاثة{7})[الواقعة: 7] أي قرناء، ثلاثًا، وهم الذين فسرهم بما بعد أي في قوله تعالى: (فَأَصْحَابُ الْمَيْمَنَةِ مَا أَصْحَابُ الْمَيْمَنَةِ{8} وَأَصْحَابُ الْمَشْأَمَةِ مَا أَصْحَابُ الْمَشْأَمَةِ{9} وَالسَّابِقُونَ السَّابِقُونَ{10} أُوْلَئِكَ الْمُقَرَّبُونَ{11})[الواقعة: 8-11] وقوله تعالى: (وَإِذَا النُّفُوسُ زُوِّجَتْ{7})[التكوير: 7] .فقد قيل: قرن كل شيعة بمن شايعهم في الجنة والنار . انتهى .

مما سبق نستنتج أن معنى الزوج في القرآن الكريم يشمل:

1- الذكر والأنثى في الكائنات الحية .

2- القرينين كالخف والنعال والجوارب .

3- لكل من يقترن بآخر مماثلاً له أو مضادًا .

4- الأشياء مكونة من جوهر وعرض ومادة وصورة وكل شيء مركب فهو مصنوع .

5- كل شيء مخلوق ومصنوع .

6- الضد، المثل، والتركيب .

7- أنواعًا متشابهة .

8- أصنافًا متعددة .

9- قرناء في المكان والزمان .

إذا قصر الزوجين على الذكر والأنثى فقط هو قصور في فهم الآية وتفسير غير حقيقي أي أن الحقيقة التفسيرية لا تقتصر على أن الأزواج الذكر والأنثى والزوج والزوجة فقط .

ثانياً: الزوجية في عالم النبات والكائنات الحية الدقيقة:

وبالنسبة لعالم النبات، فالنبات أزواج ذكر وأنثى، وأصناف، وأنواع، وقرناء في المكان الوحد، وبها المضادات وبخصوص الذكر والأنثى النبات أزواج والكائنات الحية أزواج .

فالبكتريا ثبت أن فيها خلايا موجبة وخلايا سالبة، خلايا مذكرة وخلايا مؤنثة ويحدث التزاوج الجنسي بين الخليتين بخروج أنبوب تزاوج، خيطي طويل يوصل بين الخليتين وتقوم الخلية الموجبة بإفراغ محتواها في الخلية السالبة عبر الأنبوب.


صورة لنوع من أنواع البكتريا

والفطريات: تنقسم إلى أقسام حسب نوع التكاثر الجنسي فهناك الفطريات البيضية التي تتكاثر تزاجيًا بالأؤوجونة (Oogonium) المؤنثة والأنثريدة (ِAntheridia) المذكرة، وقسم الفطريات التزاوجية تتكاثر فطرياته بالتزاوج بين خيط موجب وخيط سالب، وقسم الفطريات الزقية الذي يتكاثر جنسيًا ليعطي الجراثيم الزقية وقسم الفطريات البازيدية الذي يتكاثر جنسيًا ثم يعطي الجراثيم البازيدية، وهناك قسم الفطريات الناقصة الذي لم نكتشف بعد نوع التكاثر فيه، وكل فطر نكتشف تكاثره الجنسي من هذا القسم , ننقله إلى القسم الموافق له في التركيب الخيطي وغيره , فيجب أن لا يخدعنا أحد بهذا القسم أنه لا يتكاثر جنسيًا , إنه يتكاثر جنسياً , ولكن للآن لم نتعرف نوع التكاثر الجنسي فيه ولا يوجد دليل علمي يثبت أنه لا يتكاثر جنسياً , فقط علمنا لم يصل بعد إلى اكتشاف التكاثر الجنسي في هذا القسم وكل يوم تتناقص أعداد أجناس هذا القسم باكتشافنا للتكاثر الجنسي فيها ..


صورة لطحلب أحمر يعيش في جزر هاوي

والطحالب جميعها تتكاثر بالتكاثر الجنسي وهذا معلوم لجميع طلاب كليات العلوم والزراعة الدراسين للطحالب، فالإسبيروجيرا يتكاثر جنسيًا، والكلاميدوموناس، والباندوراينا والفولفوكس والكلوريللا وكل الطحالب تتكاثر جنسياً , ومن يجهل ذلك عليه البحث فيه والإتيان بخلاف ذلك بالدليل العلمي الموثق وليس بالكتب القديمة التي لم تحدث معلوماتها إلى الآن, فالبينة على من يدعي .

والنباتات الخزازية، والنباتات التريدية ومعراة البذور ومغطاة البذور تتكاثر جنسيًا، وهناك أزهار مذكرة وأزهار مؤنثة، وأزهار تحتوي أعضاء التذكير وأعضاء التأنيث وهما عضوان مقترنان في مكان وحد متضادان ومختلفان في الذكورة والأنوثة حيث ينتج العضو الذكري حبوب اللقاح المذكرة، والعضو الأنثوي البويضات المؤنثة فهما قرناء في المكان والزمان وهذه إحدى معاني الزوجية كما قال الأصفهاني في مفردات ألفاظ القرآن .

الخطورة تقع في القصور في فهم المعنى اللغوي لكلمة الأزواج من النبات أصناف متعددة وهذا من معاني الزوجية، وأنواع متشابهة ومختلفة وأجناس متشابهة ومختلفة والحال كذلك في الحيوان .

والكائنات الحية بها جزيئ وهو DNA وهو يتركب من خيطين مترابطين ومتزاوجين بالقواعد النيتروجينية الزوجية .وفي الفيروسات يوجد DNA، RNA , و هو خيط مفرد ولكنه يتكون من قواعد تقوم بنسخ أزواج متشابهة لها عند التكاثر .

ومن المركبات الكيميائية الأزواج المتشابهة والمضادة كالحموضة والقلوية وفي الفيزياء توجد الأزواج المتشابهة والمتباينة .

وكل المخلوقات مكونة من جوهر وعرض ومن مواد ميتة ومن حياة توجد فيها وجميع هذه الكائنات مخلوقة وهذا أحد أنواع الزوجية فانتبهوا حتى لا يؤدي الفهم الخاطئ لقوله تعالى: ( وَمِن كُلِّ شَيْءٍ خَلَقْنَا زَوْجَيْنِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَذَكَّرُونَ{49})[الذاريات: 49]، فلا تقصروها على الذكر والأنثى وهذا أحد معاني الزوج والزوجين في القرآن الكريم كما كتب الأصفهاني منذ مئات السنين والحمد لله رب العالمين .

أ.د. نظمي خليل أبو العطا موسى

دكتور الفلسفة في العلوم جامعة عين شمس

www.nazme.net

http://www.55a.net/firas/arabic/?pag...select_page=23

:w:
Reply

crayon
06-15-2008, 07:49 PM
Hey, it's 11 pm and I don't feel like going to bed yet!- I'll translate inshallah.:)
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جوري
06-15-2008, 07:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by crayon
Hey, it's 11 pm and I don't feel like going to bed yet!- I'll translate inshallah.:)
lol ukhty.. you really don't have to..
I am attempting to show how fission/budding/spores etc pretty much included 'pair' but I don't wish to get too esoteric interpreting Quranic verses.. even if I know the science of it, I don't wish to espouse it to religion, lest I commit a grievous mistake.. but I shall go for it anyway.. and say Allah knows best..

:w:
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crayon
06-15-2008, 08:07 PM
Well.....I tried..
didn't get too far, lol. it was harder than I thought.

I guess it's out of my league, so i'll just leave it to you sis, jazaki Allah khair..:)
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جوري
06-15-2008, 08:15 PM
I think we can all agree, that the continuation of any specie lies behind successful reproduction?
The term pairs as I understand it in the Quran and I believe the understanding of many others isn't tethered by the very strenuous meaning of male and female sexual union since nothing in the verses themselves allude just sexual repriduction.. rather even the splitting off, of a unicellular organism renders one into a pair ...
Asexual reproduction only denotes is the production of progeny without the union of cells or nuclear material. Many reproduce asexually by ordinary cell division or by fragmentation, or by spores. etc which yields a pair of two, more of less equal parts.

hence the verse..

"Hallowed is He, Who created pairs in all things, those that grow from the earth and of themselves, and what they know not." (36:36)


And Allah knows best

:w:
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جوري
06-15-2008, 08:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by crayon
Well.....I tried..
didn't get too far, lol. it was harder than I thought.

I guess it's out of my league, so i'll just leave it to you sis, jazaki Allah khair..:)
To properly translate a single page to or from Arabic (2nd) most difficult language after chinese, it takes a good 7-8 hours and that is for a skilled translator.. hence I stated, that I'd prefer someone else to do it, I simply can't dedicate that sort of time to it..
I have jury duty again tomorrow :raging:, I postponed it around this time last year and here I am taking off time from all for this sort of crap.. which doubly annoys me..

:w:
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Chuck
06-15-2008, 11:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nerd
Here are the three translation of the verse 49 of Surah 51.

YUSUFALI: And of every thing We have created pairs: That ye may receive instruction.

PICKTHAL: And all things We have created by pairs, that haply ye may reflect.

SHAKIR: And of everything We have created pairs that you may be mindful.

Does "everything" here, also include biological organisms?

Because there are a number of organisms that can reproduce asexually such as bacterial cells.

At first glance, some may consider it a blunder in the Holy Quran. How does one counter such arguments and explain this verse?
First, it is a generic statement it is speaking about God's system as it is serving to ponder for the next world -- this world has a pair, which would be the next world. Not to mention, having two types of reproduction will automatically cause asexual as a subset.

Second, asexual creatures have 2 issues:
1. they pair and they have sexual reproduction.
eg1: http://www.news-medical.net/?id=7508
eg2: worms who can produce asexually, pair and take gender role, but I don't have the link to that article at the moment.

2. Second there is some problem explaining why most creatures only produce sexually, but this factor is rather speculative.
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Azy
06-16-2008, 07:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Well that's my point. A photon does not have any quantum number properties to invert so there is no such thing as an anti-photon, just photons. One thing and itself do not make a pair.

format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
You are as qualified as the next blogger to make a guesstimate at the age of such or the age of such.. your opinion is also as pedestrian as the next blogger.. Until I see your thesis in a scientific journal that is peer reviewed.. I'd refrain from speaking with such authority on any topic..
In this case undergraduate physics is sufficient. What makes an MD qualified in this subject?

Find me a peer reviewed article which estimates the age of the universe at 20 million years.
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جوري
06-16-2008, 11:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
Well that's my point. A photon does not have any quantum number properties to invert so there is no such thing as an anti-photon, just photons. One thing and itself do not make a pair.
So long as it works in a dual manner it will satisfy the specified concern.. not unlike hermaphrodite worms..

In this case undergraduate physics is sufficient. What makes an MD qualified in this subject?

Find me a peer reviewed article which estimates the age of the universe at 20 million years.
You seem very hung up on accolades?... I am comfortable where I am and have no need to attempt a defense nor to bring up what I do.. Medicine is one of the most eminent fields in science, as high an education as anyone can acquire, I don't think the medical community's establishment and worth is resting on your approval-- I rather think you should work on your own emotional upsets that require you to constantly highlight your competitive disadvantage on every thread.. dropping count of what you allegedly do neither resolves queries launched nor adds to the topic...

we all studied physics in college, it is mandatory and elemental, not the course of the secrets of life for the chosen few.. it, like many fields requires no restrain on the mind and some abstraction... only those who think they know everything and get hung up on what they do or what others do, take the pedestrian literal approach to life are the losers.

A guess is a guess whether 18 million, or 20 billion.. we have no precise way of strictly measuring age to come up with an absolute number... Him being off on a zero or a B in lieu of an M isn't the focal point of his paper...So perhaps you can quit your whinning and your psychobabble..?!

cheers
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Fishman
06-16-2008, 11:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
we all studied physics in college, it isn't a luxury course.. and that is just it.. a guess is a guess whether 18 million, 20 or 6.3 billion.. we have no precise way of strictly measuring it.

cheers
:sl:
Scientists calculate that the universe is about 13 billion years old, not 20 million. How could it be 20 million if the last dinosaurs lived 65 million years ago?

So quit your whinning and your psychobabble!
Its not very nice to call somebody's response to you 'whining' and 'psychobabble'. That's not having a civilised discussion, its just name-calling.
:w:
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جوري
06-16-2008, 11:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
Scientists calculate that the universe is about 13 billion years old, not 20 million. How could it be 20 million if the last dinosaurs lived 65 million years ago?
Do they have a universe-o-meter for their calculations? I never authenticated the 'fact' that the universe is 20 million yrs.. the author made a guestimate, a judgement error.. your fellow gent, is simply using it to discredit him! Fact of the matter is, you can't come with an absolute number.. one is as good as the next, so long as you are not having the erroneous belief that it started 6000 years ago,!

Its not very nice to call somebody's response to you 'whining' and 'psychobabble'. That's not having a civilised discussion, its just name-calling.
:w:
Indeed, when we descend down to semantics, 'name-calling' comes along.. your atheist friend, is no stranger to poor manners.. perhaps you should browse some of his posts, before jumping to his aid?


on a separate note:
if the exchange doesn't concern you, then I believe it is in equal bad manners to insinuate yourself in that not to subtle manner of yours!

I have Jury duty today, and have no time to amuse or be amused by all of this.. if we are done.. perhaps getting back to the topic at hand, instead of all sorts of tangents is in order!

:w:
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Fishman
06-16-2008, 12:19 PM
:sl:
Do they have a universe-o-meter for their calculations?
They have satellites, radiocarbon dating, fossil record etc. If the oldest rocks are 4.5 billion years old, then the universe must be physically older than that. If satellites can see no light coming from distances further than 13 billion light years, then that must have been no stars before 13 billion years ago.


I never authenticated the 'fact' that the universe is 20 million yrs.. the author made a guestimate, a judgement error.. your fellow gent, is simply using it to discredit him! Fact of the matter is, you can't come with an absolute number.. one is as good as the next, so long as you are not having the erroneous belief that it started 6000 years ago,!
If he was out by 1-3 billion years, then that's just a judgement error, or bad measurements. Scientists don't know the precise date themselves. And there is always the omphalos hypothesis, but I don't know how theologically acceptable it is. But he was out by over 12 billion years, which is not a guesstimate, but is just plain wrong.

Indeed, when we descend down to semantics, 'name-calling' comes along.. your atheist friend, is no stranger to poor manners.. perhaps you should browse some of his posts, before jumping to his aid?
I have. I've been watching this thread and Azy hasn't really said anything very-ill mannered. And even if you 'get down to semantics' insults are not necessary. Insulting the person you are arguing with doesn't make you look like the winner, it just makes you look like somebody who is left with no good responses.

If you were writing an article on the other hand, then harsh words all the way, as rhetoric is a very powerful persuasive tool that makes people listen to your arguments. But its not meant to be used in a debate. In a debate its called 'flaming'.

on a separate note:
if the exchange doesn't concern you, then I believe it is in equal bad manners to insinuate yourself in that not to subtle manner of yours!
If its posted in a public board there is no reason why I shouldn't. If you want to have exchanges that don't concern other people have them via PM, not the open messaging sections that anybody can see.
:w:
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Chuck
06-16-2008, 04:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Do they have a universe-o-meter for their calculations? I never authenticated the 'fact' that the universe is 20 million yrs.. the author made a guestimate, a judgement error.. your fellow gent, is simply using it to discredit him! Fact of the matter is, you can't come with an absolute number.. one is as good as the next, so long as you are not having the erroneous belief that it started 6000 years ago,!
Could be a typo too.
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Chuck
06-16-2008, 04:45 PM
Will you two please stop.
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جوري
06-16-2008, 09:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:

They have satellites, radiocarbon dating, fossil record etc. If the oldest rocks are 4.5 billion years old, then the universe must be physically older than that. If satellites can see no light coming from distances further than 13 billion light years, then that must have been no stars before 13 billion years ago.
Indeed.. but what is your point? .. I am arguing against a statement of absolution!... defining what is relative vs. absolute..-- neither you nor your pal or anyone else can come with an absolute number-- I don't need to cut and paste an insta google article to hammer that in..
-- it is really not that difficult to use google.. question is can you show enough inventiveness, industry and skill to sustain a topic and not run to the web to loan your writing credence?!

If he was out by 1-3 billion years, then that's just a judgement error, or bad measurements. Scientists don't know the precise date themselves. And there is always the omphalos hypothesis, but I don't know how theologically acceptable it is. But he was out by over 12 billion years, which is not a guesstimate, but is just plain wrong.
Maybe he forgot to add a zero to the other 6? or perhaps that wasn't at all the crux of his argument, which actually it wasn't, if you'd let go of the dial on your telescope you might find a whole constellation instead of a magnified crater!

I have. I've been watching this thread and Azy hasn't really said anything very-ill mannered. And even if you 'get down to semantics' insults are not necessary. Insulting the person you are arguing with doesn't make you look like the winner, it just makes you look like somebody who is left with no good responses.
'winner and loser' concept, are only amusing/popular I suspect in your age group?--
it is of minor concern to me, especially, when I address someone with a significant background of deteriorating every thread into sententious episode!

Your observations of his behavior is inconsequential to me.. I don't value nor trust your judgement from previous impressions concerning palestine/ history/Al-Aqsa etc.. I am almost always accustomed to a brusque reply from your person rather then a facilitation of a good discussion!

If you were writing an article on the other hand, then harsh words all the way, as rhetoric is a very powerful persuasive tool that makes people listen to your arguments. But its not meant to be used in a debate. In a debate its called 'flaming'.
Thanks I'll make a mental note of that.. fact of the matter is.. I am not in a debate.. I am answering questions posed by the OP to the best of my knowledge, and that which is outside my sphere, I have opted to ask a scholar on as per request, rather than loan it my own rendition, to which your friend decided to insert himself, divert the topic citing an axillary statement and dropping count of a degree allegedly satisfactorily completed as his course of study...(which I am still wondering how it conforms or adds to the topic?!)

If its posted in a public board there is no reason why I shouldn't. If you want to have exchanges that don't concern other people have them via PM, not the open messaging sections that anybody can see.
:w:
When one speaks of what is apropos for a debate, one should carry that integrity through? I'd think! so he doesn't come across like a hypocrite..

In the very least just keeping with Islamic manners..

The Prophet said: 'Whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day should not trouble his neighbor, and whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day should entertain his guest generously, and whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day should say what is good, or be silent.' (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim).

That being said, I get positively no pleasure out of descending to word play with you--- I don't favor at all arguing with Muslims.. there are those on board who express their opinion more emotionally than scientifically in a way that i very much disagree with.. and I still admire them for their resolve, and for fostering a skill, that I hope for them will evolve to that which is better with each encounter-- with you, sometimes I wonder, why it is that you have decided to become a Muslim? You seem to have at it with the Muslims than any other group..

I am trying hard not to be abrasive with you.. I'd rather we simply go on each other's ignore list!

waslaam 3lykoum wara7amt Allah wa'barakatoh!
Reply

Azy
06-17-2008, 02:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
So long as it works in a dual manner it will satisfy the specified concern.. not unlike hermaphrodite worms..
I don't think it satisfies "of everything we created pairs" at all.
Saying that the behaviour or properties of a thing are such that it doesn't need to be part of a pair isn't the same as it being part of a pair. You're just strengthening the opposition's argument.
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
You seem very hung up on accolades?...
I hope you'll forgive me but that is the funniest thing you've ever said. Practically every thread in which you comment and I've also posted, you start making proclamations about who is or isn't qualified to comment on this or that topic, while yourself speaking as an authority on anything that takes your fancy.

From one of your earlier posts:
You are as qualified as the next blogger to make a guesstimate at the age of such or the age of such.. your opinion is also as pedestrian as the next blogger.. Until I see your thesis in a scientific journal that is peer reviewed.. I'd refrain from speaking with such authority on any topic.. it just makes you look so foolish.. Anyone can google and come up with evidence for or against .. as I have just done in the Quote above...

I thought since you like dismissing everyone as 'bloggers' and 'google scholars', it might be pertinent to point out that you don't actually know anything about the people you're talking to and what may qualify then to comment on the topic.
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
I am comfortable where I am and have no need to attempt a defense nor to bring up what I do..
Except in every third post.
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
I rather think you should work on your own emotional upsets that require you to constantly highlight your competitive disadvantage on every thread.. dropping count of what you allegedly do neither resolves queries launched nor adds to the topic...
You should ponder on this yourself and on your need to start throwing insults and diverting the thread every time you are without a sufficient retort.
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
we all studied physics in college, it is mandatory and elemental, not the course of the secrets of life for the chosen few.. it, like many fields requires no restrain on the mind and some abstraction... only those who think they know everything and get hung up on what they do or what others do, take the pedestrian literal approach to life are the losers.
that's really insightful and interesting, thanks :rollseyes
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
to which your friend decided to insert himself, divert the topic citing an axillary statement
As he said, this is a public forum, I responded to the assertions of the third poster which is hardly diverting the topic since it is one example of evidence against the question in the thread title.
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Indeed.. but what is your point? .. I am arguing against a statement of absolution!... defining what is relative vs. absolute..-- neither you nor your pal or anyone else can come with an absolute number
The point is that while noone can say the universe came into being on the 3rd August 14,564,304,992 BC, it's fair to say that the previously stated age is out by 3 orders of magnitude, which is more than a slight accounting hiccup in anyone's book.
Reply

Chuck
06-17-2008, 09:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
I don't think it satisfies "of everything we created pairs" at all.
Saying that the behaviour or properties of a thing are such that it doesn't need to be part of a pair isn't the same as it being part of a pair.
It is not clear what you are trying to say. Explain it more.
Reply

جوري
06-17-2008, 09:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
I don't think it satisfies "of everything we created pairs" at all.
Saying that the behaviour or properties of a thing are such that it doesn't need to be part of a pair isn't the same as it being part of a pair. You're just strengthening the opposition's argument.
I don't see how I am strengthening the opposite argument? care to eleaborate on that? & you are certainly entitled to your opinion YOUR ( personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty) is worth as much as the next blogger, which is to say exhibiting your native judgment rather than palpable sensical constructs!


I hope you'll forgive me but that is the funniest thing you've ever said. Practically every thread in which you comment and I've also posted, you start making proclamations about who is or isn't qualified to comment on this or that topic, while yourself speaking as an authority on anything that takes your fancy.

From one of your earlier posts:
You are as qualified as the next blogger to make a guesstimate at the age of such or the age of such.. your opinion is also as pedestrian as the next blogger.. Until I see your thesis in a scientific journal that is peer reviewed.. I'd refrain from speaking with such authority on any topic.. it just makes you look so foolish.. Anyone can google and come up with evidence for or against .. as I have just done in the Quote above...

I thought since you like dismissing everyone as 'bloggers' and 'google scholars', it might be pertinent to point out that you don't actually know anything about the people you're talking to and what may qualify then to comment on the topic.
Except in every third post.
I am not seeing anything funny at all.. Do you find conforming to reality funny? I actually stand by my above statement.. in fact here I am a Muslim/ Arabic speaking, and chosen not to give a non-scholarly reply to what I consider an important question, while you deem it fit to offer an exegesis to Quranic text.. I ask by what virtue?

You should ponder on this yourself and on your need to start throwing insults and diverting the thread every time you are without a sufficient retort.
that's really insightful and interesting, thanks :rollseyes
Is this a mere drive by shooting with your BB gun ( I am wounded) I was invited by someone to offer a reply to this thread.. in fact even if I weren't personally invited, a Muslim here asked for another 'Muslim' to help I reference to a couple of pages ago.. Which I tried in part but declined to give a full exegesis to, until I find an article by a scholar on the topic or offered to ask the scholar (link included as an option).. further again declined to translate it, and asked if another Arabic speaking Muslim would give it sometime, as I know my time limit with which I can dedicate to each thread.. Thus I ask how have I diverted or hijacked the thread or even made mention of what qualifies me or another on the matter?

As he said, this is a public forum, I responded to the assertions of the third poster which is hardly diverting the topic since it is one example of evidence against the question in the thread title.
The point is that while noone can say the universe came into being on the 3rd August 14,564,304,992 BC, it's fair to say that the previously stated age is out by 3 orders of magnitude, which is more than a slight accounting hiccup in anyone's book.
Actually you responded to a negligible side point to a thread I had posted, to make a case for yourself which if anything at all isn't even in keeping with the subject of the thread itself.. I find that you confabulate when you can't come up with anything tangible to write.
Now, do you think you can sit and focus on a topic without tangentially?
Reply

Azy
06-19-2008, 07:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
I don't see how I am strengthening the opposite argument? care to eleaborate on that?
You're excusing the need for it to be part of what we would call a pair.

If male and female are a pair, and hermaphrodite worms are accepted as a pair and bacteria are accepted as pairs then you could pretty much argue for anything as part of a pair by twisting the definition.

Out of curiosity, how would you explain parthenogenesis in insects with multiple eggs, or the segmentation of some worms into multiple pieces as a means of reproduction in keeping them with 'pairs'?
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Actually you responded to a negligible side point to a thread I had posted, to make a case for yourself which if anything at all isn't even in keeping with the subject of the thread itself..
The first part was for the benefit of AntiKarateKid, the second part was directed at your link, but mainly to raise issue with the reliability of the source given the error stated. I'll try be more straight-forward next time.
Reply

Chuck
06-19-2008, 09:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
worms are accepted as a pair and bacteria are accepted as pairs then you could pretty much argue for anything as part of a pair by twisting the definition.
But they are pairing, what else you would call them? non-pair pairs? :D
Reply

Azy
06-19-2008, 02:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
But they are pairing, what else you would call them? non-pair pairs? :D
The point is you have to change the rule as to what counts as part of the pair to make it fit.
In bacteria it's the parent and offspring.
In humans it's the two parents and not the offspring (otherwise it'd be 3)
In parthenogenic species a single parent creates many offspring (not sure how you'd make that fit into a pair)
Reply

جوري
06-19-2008, 03:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
You're excusing the need for it to be part of what we would call a pair.

If male and female are a pair, and hermaphrodite worms are accepted as a pair and bacteria are accepted as pairs then you could pretty much argue for anything as part of a pair by twisting the definition.
Actually I don't, as per Quranic verse itself.. which is what we have originally used as a definition
سُبْحَانَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ الْأَزْوَاجَ كُلَّهَا مِمَّا تُنبِتُ الْأَرْضُ وَمِنْ أَنفُسِهِمْ وَمِمَّا لَا يَعْلَمُونَ {36}
[Pickthal 36:36] Glory be to Him Who created all the sexual pairs, of that which the earth groweth, and of themselves, and of that which they know not!

Out of curiosity, how would you explain parthenogenesis in insects with multiple eggs, or the segmentation of some worms into multiple pieces as a means of reproduction in keeping them with 'pairs'?
I believe I was the one who first alluded to parthenogensis in the previous page as well, written an entire separate paragraph denoting, what I think the term 'pair' means in this sequence, all you need to do is go back one page!


The first part was for the benefit of AntiKarateKid, the second part was directed at your link, but mainly to raise issue with the reliability of the source given the error stated. I'll try be more straight-forward next time.
Fair enough!

cheers
Reply

Woodrow
06-19-2008, 06:35 PM
Possibly we are not even looking correctly at the concept of pair?
Reply

Chuck
06-19-2008, 09:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
The point is you have to change the rule as to what counts as part of the pair to make it fit.
In bacteria it's the parent and offspring.
In humans it's the two parents and not the offspring (otherwise it'd be 3)
In parthenogenic species a single parent creates many offspring (not sure how you'd make that fit into a pair)
And it doesn't when worms take male & female roles because it is beneficial. I can't see why that wouldn't constitute a pair?

It is not about gender per se as their are hadiths speaking about intersex gender(s): in Hadith (sayings of Prophet Muhammad, SAW), effeminate men are forbidden to enter upon women as they may have interest in women, notwithstanding without natural sexual prowess. Prophet Muhammad (SAW) forbade the entry of an effeminate man in his household, since He (SAW) had heard him relishing the description of physical features of a woman. The narration exhibited amply the effeminate man’s interest in the women (Sahi Bukhari, 1986, p. 119; Mauta ImamMalik, 1979, p.557; Sunnan-e-Ibne Maja, 1983, p. 533).

There are clear rulings in Islam about intersex gender(s) which differ from male and female genders. Their issues has been discussed by early Islamic scholars.
Reply

SixTen
06-20-2008, 01:09 AM
We are looking beyond as to what was being written. The Qur'an is not trying to predict/or state for you a scientific principle/miracle, it is just mentioning a natural occurance for you to ponder over - i.e. how humans/animals seem to be in pairs (male/female).

It was known in ancient times that there were pairs in the human and animal worlds. Later on man learnt of pairs in trees and plants.

In comparison, take the verses of Surah Ar-Rahman:

There in are fruits and palm trees with sheaths.


And grain with husk and fray. rant flowers.


Which then, of the favours of your Lord wills O Jinn and men you twain will deny?
It states natural phenomena's, as favours that you should ponder over. Is it not taught, that he could have made the rain bitter if he willed?

Take the Qur'an in context, you don't have to see everything in a scientific sense. Their are many metaphoric, or simple literal meanings (as in this case) - which people are looking too much in.

An example would me saying the chair is red - but you argued it somewhat resembles maroon - you are missing the point :).
Reply

Nerd
06-20-2008, 09:10 AM
Guess for the time being, we have to leave it at Allah Knows the best.
Reply

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