Hindu gods

[Eeman]

Dear brothers and sisters,

Salam alaikum.

The purpose for this thread is just to broaden my knowledge a little bit, i dont know if there are any hindu brothers and sisters amongst us in this forum but if i could get any responses from them if there are then it would be much appreciated.

Now i know the basics about hinduism and i know how they worship many gods, at first i intially thought just like Allah swt has through His grace and mercy given us the knowledge of His 99 beautiful names and attributes that this was a way hindus differentiate that by having so many different gods each one representing an attribute of God. But then conversing once with a hindu friend i realised that is not the case you guys just simply believe in different gods.

Now whilst i was conversing with this hindu friend of mine once about spirituality, she mentioned that she has been praying to the wrong god shiva and that he is destroying her life cos he is a male god who is a dominating god so that is why things are not going so well in her life and that she needs to stop praying to shiva and turn to another god who she named but i cannot remember the name but it was a female god that she was referring to.

now what i fail to understand is in every religion God is God no matter if you believe in one or a hundred. We believe in the existance of God cos God is that higher being that we need in our lives and to give a purpose to life altogether, to turn to and who helps us out. Now how can praying to one certain god be the wrong thing to do and how can this god destroy your life for being devout to him and praying to him? then seek another female god cos the male one is not answering your prayers???

i'm just a bit confused and would like someone with more knowledge about hinduism clarify that for me please.

one would assume in order for god to be god no matter how many you believe in, they would need to have godly attributes no matter which one you pray to they should bless you and help you. but that doesnt seem the case here somehow so how does that work?

ma salama

[Pygoscelis]

I see no reason to assume that every concept of God should be of a benevolent God. When I read many holy books I see exactly the opposite.

[Eeman]

I see no reason to assume that every concept of God should be of a benevolent God. When I read many holy books I see exactly the opposite.

so what is the point of believing in a God altogether then?
if God does not have godly features or attributes then why worship something that does you no good or no harm???

[جوري]

that is why he is an atheist n'est pas?
Nothing a few days sans sunshine, air, water, trees, food, sleep, vacation couldn't cure...

that is why mankind is kanood by nature especially so the atheists (thankless wretches).. they have a strange sense of entitlement.
entitled for not just one day of pleasures but years, entitled to food, warmth, a change of seasons, their senses, their loved ones and etc etc... mother nature or father time, someone other than God gave it all to them because they are special comme Ça ...

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[Tornado]

that is why he is an atheist n'est pas?
Nothing a few days sans sunshine, air, water, trees, food, sleep, vacation couldn't cure...

that is why mankind is kanood by nature especially so the atheists (thankless wretches).. they have a strange sense of entitlement.
entitled for not just one day of pleasures but years, entitled to food, warmth, a change of seasons, their senses, their loved ones and etc etc... mother nature or father time, someone other than God gave it all to them because they are special comme Ça ...

I don't think I'm special, just luckier than other organisms (maybe not? being a bird would be pretty cool).

[جوري]

yup just lucky..
is 'lucky' amenable to the scientific approach? the term is a bit esoteric-- so much luck to pass around, it is almost a shame not to investigate!

cheers

[Eeman]

Guys salam,
please stay on topic no arguments just peace please Jazak'Allah Khair.

ma salama

[K.Venugopal]

Dear brothers and sisters,

Salam alaikum.

The purpose for this thread is just to broaden my knowledge a little bit, i dont know if there are any hindu brothers and sisters amongst us in this forum but if i could get any responses from them if there are then it would be much appreciated.

Now i know the basics about hinduism and i know how they worship many gods, at first i intially thought just like Allah swt has through His grace and mercy given us the knowledge of His 99 beautiful names and attributes that this was a way hindus differentiate that by having so many different gods each one representing an attribute of God. But then conversing once with a hindu friend i realised that is not the case you guys just simply believe in different gods.

Now whilst i was conversing with this hindu friend of mine once about spirituality, she mentioned that she has been praying to the wrong god shiva and that he is destroying her life cos he is a male god who is a dominating god so that is why things are not going so well in her life and that she needs to stop praying to shiva and turn to another god who she named but i cannot remember the name but it was a female god that she was referring to.

now what i fail to understand is in every religion God is God no matter if you believe in one or a hundred. We believe in the existance of God cos God is that higher being that we need in our lives and to give a purpose to life altogether, to turn to and who helps us out. Now how can praying to one certain god be the wrong thing to do and how can this god destroy your life for being devout to him and praying to him? then seek another female god cos the male one is not answering your prayers???

i'm just a bit confused and would like someone with more knowledge about hinduism clarify that for me please.

one would assume in order for god to be god no matter how many you believe in, they would need to have godly attributes no matter which one you pray to they should bless you and help you. but that doesnt seem the case here somehow so how does that work?

ma salama

All the so many Gods of Hinduism are only various expressions of the one truth that is existence. Hindus begin by worshiping the truth in its many manifestations according to his or her preference or his or her tradition. The eventual aim of Hindu teachings is to awaken the worshipper to the realization that the worshipped is none other that the worshipper in his or her essence. It is only at this stage that the duality that causes worship ends. Till this point, all religions are essentially dualistic and hence idol worshiping religions, Islam included.

About your friend not being “satisfied” with one God and turning to another, that’s her personal experience and choice, based on her understanding. No two persons are likely to have the same experience in a given situation – similar, may be.

[adeeb]

^^ do you think, every hindu believer have their own understanding about God??

how can.. how all of u unite in the name of Hindu religion..

we have hindu community here in Indonesia, it's exactly in Bali

but, hindu Bali have many differences with hindu India and other country.. they worship different God, but they have the same religion, which is Hindu..

this make me confuse...

[Trumble]

I would have thought that any believer in God (or indeed any other conception of ultimate reality) would have their own understanding of Him/it?

Identification with and adoption of a particular religious identity is based on similarity of understanding, not identical understanding. The particular nature of some religions allows them to be a 'broader church' than others.

[K.Venugopal]

^^ do you think, every hindu believer have their own understanding about God??

how can.. how all of u unite in the name of Hindu religion..

we have hindu community here in Indonesia, it's exactly in Bali

but, hindu Bali have many differences with hindu India and other country.. they worship different God, but they have the same religion, which is Hindu..

this make me confuse...

You are right; every Hindu can have his own understanding of God. There is no need to unite in the name of any religion (which is not to say that we have to be at war with each other in the name of religion. Unity would be natural and spontaneous in the affairs of men if we are benefited by the spiritual teachings of religion). Religion is a direct relationship between the worshipper and the worshipped, leading to the ‘merging’ of the worshipper and the worshipped.

[K.Venugopal]

I would have thought that any believer in God (or indeed any other conception of ultimate reality) would have their own understanding of Him/it?

Identification with and adoption of a particular religious identity is based on similarity of understanding, not identical understanding. The particular nature of some religions allows them to be a 'broader church' than others.

I agree with you. While religion is an individual and personal involvement with the unfoldment of one’s spirituality, congregational activities in the pursuit of spirituality have always been an aid. Incidentally, spirituality is the very antithesis of identity. In the end, all identity is dissolved and man becomes free in the celebration of existence.

[Faye]

The eventual aim of Hindu teachings is to awaken the worshipper to the realization that the worshipped is none other that the worshipper in his or her essence.

So Hindus worship themselves? Strange concept...

Also, do Hindus have some form of religious law, like Shariah in Islam, or is it just following cultural traditions/customs?

How about Prophets?

(pls excuse my ignorance, but as you can see, i am trying to correct the matter)

[------]

:salamext:

But then conversing once with a hindu friend i realised that is not the case you guys just simply believe in different gods.

They believe in 3 main Gods - Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva [Creator, Preserver, Destroyer] and those three Gods are part of one main God- Brahman. Like we have attributes of Allaah, they have assorted those attributes of their Gods with gods with little 'g', to make up the god with big 'G'.

[K.Venugopal]

So Hindus worship themselves? Strange concept...

Also, do Hindus have some form of religious law, like Shariah in Islam, or is it just following cultural traditions/customs?

How about Prophets?

(pls excuse my ignorance, but as you can see, i am trying to correct the matter)

1. To say Hindus worship themselves is not correct because the individuality of an individual is based on the individual's ego or self-awareness. This self is usually referred to as the lower self and what is talked about in spirituality is the higher Self. It is our higher Self that reveals the eternal that we are. When such a realization occurs, worship becomes superfluous.

2. Hindus have had great lawgivers and probably the most famous was Manu. His laws were codified into what was called the Manusmriti and it attained notoriety in the modern age due to its rather unequal classification of castes. Now Manusmriti for all practical purposes has been discarded, particularly after India adopted a constitution and since most Hindus in the world are in India, the Indian constitution may well be said to be the law guiding Hindus in civil matters. Moreover, the Indian constitution has sanctioned the general validity of the personal laws of its various religious communities, including its Islamic community, to some extent. This is not a failure of Hinduism because Hinduism has always stated that civil laws would tend to change from age to age due to changing social realities. It is the immutable spiritual laws, called shruti, that is quintessential in Hinduism. This is unlike Islam, where both its spiritual laws and civil laws, encoded in Shariat, are immutable. For example, since the Quran has already given a husband the right to beat his wife, that right can never be denied to a Muslim husband even under changed modern circumstances.

3. In Hindu culture there are people who have risen to the level of having seen or grasped the highest of truths directly and they are called Rishis. I suppose parallels between them and Prophets can be drawn.

[K.Venugopal]

:salamext:



They believe in 3 main Gods - Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva [Creator, Preserver, Destroyer] and those three Gods are part of one main God- Brahman. Like we have attributes of Allaah, they have assorted those attributes of their Gods with gods with little 'g', to make up the god with big 'G'.

There are gods and gods in Hinduism as there are all sorts of worshippers. Hinduism may say there are many Gods (or expressions of divinity) and Islam may say there is only one God, but the key difference between Hinduism and Islam is that while Hinduism says Gods and worshippers are one and the same and the separateness is only due to man's ignorance or delusion (maya), Islam says that God and worshippers are eternally separate. Muslims of course would say that the Islamic position alone is true. But Hindus would not say that only one position is true. Hindus would say that the positions are not contradictory and are in fact complementary. When we are in a particular situation, the separateness (or duality) exists and when we are in a different circumstance, non-duality is inevitable.

[------]

:salamext:

^ The above in simple english?

[Faye]

So how does a person get recognized as a rishi. How do you know a person is a real rishi or not? (they could be lying) Do you still get rishis, or have all the ones who were going to come, arrived. Does he announce that he is one, or do people, impressed with his knowledge and wisdom, give him the title (like Catholic saints)? Can it be given after his death?

Manu's laws, do you believe that he, having achieved a greater level of wisdom, invented them, or do you believe that having achieved a greater spiritual reality, he could converse with the gods, who gifted him with them?

How do Hindu's worship (I mean physically)? What are the spiritual benefits of worshiping or not? Does Hinduism consider itself a way of life or a method of worship? (considering that you have no religiously defined civil laws) What is the reward for being a good/devout Hindu?

I heard somewhere that some Hindu gods (particularly Kali) demand human sacrifice and that sort of thing. Is this true? How do present day Hindus reconcile with that sort of thing?

Do you have anything equivalent to Jihad? And what about cows? What is their relationship to the religion. Are they gods? Also, your pictures of your gods, (with many arms and legs), where did they come from? Are they from visions your rishis saw, or are they just the artists rendition of what a properly Hindu god of these qualities ought to look like?

What about priests? Where do they come from? What are their duties? Do they learn under each other? What form of religious schools do you have?

I would like to emphasize that any preceived insult to you or your religion by my admittedly crass and ignorant questions, was not intended. I am just curious about Hindus, as all the tales we hear about them in Pakistan are ... well ... weird I would like to gain some actual, factual knowledge about Hindus, to counterbalance the tall tales I have heard about them.

[Muhammad]

Greetings Venugopal,

I would urge you to refrain from commenting on Islamic teachings before understanding them. Earlier you called Islam an "idol worshipping religion", and later went on to say:

For example, since the Quran has already given a husband the right to beat his wife, that right can never be denied to a Muslim husband even under changed modern circumstances.

Both of these concepts are absolutely false and demonstrate nothing but sheer ignorance. Please bear this in mind in future posts.

Regards.

['Abd-al Latif]

There are gods and gods in Hinduism as there are all sorts of worshippers. Hinduism may say there are many Gods (or expressions of divinity) and Islam may say there is only one God, but the key difference between Hinduism and Islam is that while Hinduism says Gods and worshippers are one and the same and the separateness is only due to man's ignorance or delusion (maya), Islam says that God and worshippers are eternally separate. Muslims of course would say that the Islamic position alone is true. But Hindus would not say that only one position is true. Hindus would say that the positions are not contradictory and are in fact complementary. When we are in a particular situation, the separateness (or duality) exists and when we are in a different circumstance, non-duality is inevitable.

When it comes to idols, they are nothing but hollow statues that you create with your own hands. And they are worshipped as gods even thought they bring you no harm nor benefit.

Allah says:

He (Allah) to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth: no son has He begotten, nor has He a partner in His dominion: it is He who created all things, and ordered them in due proportions.

Yet have they taken, besides him, gods that can create nothing but are themselves created; that have no control of hurt or good to themselves; nor can they control death nor life nor resurrection. [Quran 25:2-3]

[K.Venugopal]

:salamext:

^ The above in simple english?

I apologise for my poor English.

[K.Venugopal]

Many Rishis are mentioned in the many scriptures/histories of Hinduism. They were the path-blazers in many areas of knowledge that have come down as Hindu heritage. Rishis range from founders of ‘mantras’ (language in seed form that those who meditate use to navigate their way to higher truths) to pioneers of secular arts including, even, sex. (Vatsyayana Rishi wrote the world-famous Kama Sutra). They are people who have achieved extraordinary knowledge through long periods of meditation (sometimes lasting many lifetimes). Why, there is one Rishi called Charvaka Rishi who not only did not believe in God but made fun of the idea of God!

So how does a person get recognized as a rishi.

Well – you can’t hide light under a bushel.

How do you know a person is a real rishi or not? (they could be lying)

“Rishi-hood” is largely a matter of reputation. Since Hinduism is more a religion of experience than belief, its teachings are all a matter of experience. If some teachings work for you or sound true to you, you accept the teachings, not bothering whether a Rishi was its source or someone else.

Do you still get rishis, or have all the ones who were going to come, arrived.

The ancient Rishis have achieved such a high reputation that such a title is not easily given to anyone now. In the 20th century lived two men of religion – Aurobindo Maharshi and Ramana Maharshi, who were called so by their followers because they were convinced that the knowledge they had were Rishi-like. (Aruobindo ‘s poem Savitri is said to be the longest epic poem in the English language. It is the story of a young wife whose husband dies and how she pursues the God of death and reclaims the life of her husband. The poem actually unravels the different levels of consciousness that man can pass through.)

Does he announce that he is one, or do people, impressed with his knowledge and wisdom, give him the title (like Catholic saints)? Can it be given after his death?

Again, as I said, it is all a matter of reputation. It is the experience that can be derived from the teachings that are important, not the imparter of the teachings.

Manu's laws, do you believe that he, having achieved a greater level of wisdom, invented them, or do you believe that having achieved a greater spiritual reality, he could converse with the gods, who gifted him with them?

It would be interesting to note that when Philippines drafted its Constitution, it placed the statue of Manu in the National Assembly Hall with this inscription on its base: "The first, the greatest and the wisest law-giver of mankind." However, Manu is not very relevant in the Hindu scheme of things today and therefore a study of him would only be of academic interest.

How do Hindu's worship (I mean physically)?

About how Hindus worship - they normally sit on the floor and pray before an idol if at home. If in temples, they stand in a queue that passes an idol in the sanctum sanctorum of the temple and when in front of the idol, they bow, maybe recite a short prayer, and pass on. Many prefer to sit in special poses on the floor (one such is called Lotus pose) shut their eyes and recite “mantras” (language in seed-form) silently. All have its own benefits and progress for a person in spiritual quest.

What are the spiritual benefits of worshiping or not?

Worship happens when you posit that God is outside you and you try to reach out to Him. Later on, if you progress sufficiently in your spiritual quest, you will realize that what you are worshipping is actually within you - then you drop worship and take to meditation till you realize your oneness with that which you were worshipping.

Does Hinduism consider itself a way of life or a method of worship?

I can’t say anything about its being a way of life because, though I have heard it often, I still have not understood what that phrase means. Hinduism can be said to have innumerable methods of worship, the choice being left to the worshipper.

(considering that you have no religiously defined civil laws)

Civil laws are always in the secular realm. You don’t have to necessarily be religious to have to obey the rule that you have to keep left (or right) in traffic.

What is the reward for being a good/devout Hindu?

If it is about being a good Hindu like as a member of a community - that is not the ultimate aim of Hindu teachings. It has actually very individualistic teachings where the benefit is freedom from all sense of want.

I heard somewhere that some Hindu gods (particularly Kali) demand human sacrifice and that sort of thing. Is this true? How do present day Hindus reconcile with that sort of thing?

Well, as I said before, Hindus have all sorts of Gods (meaning, different expressions of the one underlying truth) and they respond to their understanding in different ways. Hindus, always, have been able to reconcile themselves with all sorts of things. But this particular thing of human sacrifice took place (and even now sometimes take place, as per newspaper reports) because of the greed of some worshippers. I suppose the devilish in man has always kept popping up in many ways and we have to live with the fact – otherwise Allah would have had no need to prepare hell awaiting!

Do you have anything equivalent to Jihad?

If by Jihad you mean fighting the debilitating tendencies in us, then all Hinduism is an attempt at Jihad. But if you mean by Jihad fighting your religious opponents, then such a concept is furtherest from Hinduism.

And what about cows? What is their relationship to the religion. Are they gods?

Gods? Remember Hinduism understands that all existence is God. Cows, traditionally, have had a pride of place in Hindu society as a symbol of a provider – milk, cow-dung as cleansing agent, cow-urine as medicinal ingredient etc.

Also, your pictures of your gods, (with many arms and legs), where did they come from?

These are all expressions of the various powers of God.

Are they from visions your rishis saw, or are they just the artists rendition of what a properly Hindu god of these qualities ought to look like?

You could say they are both.

What about priests? Where do they come from?

Mostly Hindu priests have come from the Brahmin caste but now qualified priests from other castes also perform rituals at temples.

What are their duties?

In temples, their duties are to carry on with established rituals. (There are also other people, apart from priests, involved in the running of temples. One of them is called ‘tantri’. May be we will talk about tantris later.)

Do they learn under each other? What form of religious schools do you have?

There are religious schools dedicated wholly to scriptural matters and there are nowadays religious schools that also teach secular subjects. They are traditionally called “Gurukul”.

I would like to emphasize that any preceived insult to you or your religion by my admittedly crass and ignorant questions, was not intended. I am just curious about Hindus, as all the tales we hear about them in Pakistan are ... well ... weird I would like to gain some actual, factual knowledge about Hindus, to counterbalance the tall tales I have heard about them.

I must say, on my part, that all the answers given by me are on the strength of my own convictions and not as representative answers of any Hindu community. I only speak for myself and I think that is appropriate, because Hinduism is all about individual freedom. It is not about forming any community but being capable of living harmoniously in the whole of existence.

[K.Venugopal]

Greetings Venugopal,

I would urge you to refrain from commenting on Islamic teachings before understanding them. Earlier you called Islam an "idol worshipping religion", and later went on to say:

Both of these concepts are absolutely false and demonstrate nothing but sheer ignorance. Please bear this in mind in future posts.

Regards.

Salamalaikum, Muhammad.

You urge me to desist from commenting on Islam “before understanding” it. I must say that my comments on Islam or other religions are always based on my understanding of it. Your understanding and my understanding of Islam may not tally, just as your understanding and my understanding of Hinduism may not tally. However, we must have the freedom to express our views. You might haul me up if I am trying to cast a slur on Islam. I assure you I have no such intentions. I can guarantee you that I shall not be saying anything about Islam without accounting for it. Whether my accounting makes sense to others or not is for others to judge. And I am ever willing to stand corrected if I am convinced of my error.

For example, when I said “Islam is an idol worshipping religion”, I meant it in the context of Islam separating the Creator and creation in perpetuity. This separation is common in all religions, including Hinduism. But Hinduism has a teaching, called Advaita, of which one school says that the Creator and His creation is one and the same. It is from this point of view that I called Islam an idol worshipping religion - for anything outside of you is an idol for you.

On the question of a husband’s right to beat his wife – I have called it an eternal right because this right is written in the Quran and I simply take it for granted, according to my understanding of Islam, that what is written in the Quran is immutable.

I hope this clarifies the spirit in which I wrote my comments. If you are not satisfied with my explanation, please explain your position.

[K.Venugopal]

When it comes to idols, they are nothing but hollow statues that you create with your own hands. And they are worshipped as gods even thought they bring you no harm nor benefit.

Whatever idols are, what meaning you bring to them is what that matters. The word Allah, either as a spoken word or as written on a piece of paper, turns to silence or is erased off – as transient as an idol. But how the expression has formed in our heart is what matters.

Allah says:

He (Allah) to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth: no son has He begotten, nor has He a partner in His dominion: it is He who created all things, and ordered them in due proportions.

Yet have they taken, besides him, gods that can create nothing but are themselves created; that have no control of hurt or good to themselves; nor can they control death nor life nor resurrection. [Quran 25:2-3]

All idols are mediums of communion between man and the ultimate. Just as the Quran is a medium of communion between the ultimate and man. I would take Allah’s words [Quran 25:2-3] to mean that we should go higher in our achievements and not get stuck with mere forms. This is the teaching of Hinduism also. But Hinduism also recognizes that we cannot go directly to the formless. We need to go through the steps of the formed to reach the formless.

[AvarAllahNoor]

You lift a stone in india and there you'll find a rishi or yogi, They are false and there to exploit the uneducated folks.

Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Mahraaj states How can you worship something that can't even float when you throw in into the river...Yet you expect to cross the river of life.

[K.Venugopal]

You lift a stone in india and there you'll find a rishi or yogi, They are false and there to exploit the uneducated folks.

Since all Indians or Hindus are not rishis or yogis, can you please tell me of some people among the rest who, according to you, are true and there to help uneducated people.

Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Mahraaj states How can you worship something that can't even float when you throw in into the river...Yet you expect to cross the river of life.

Please tell me about worshiping that which can float when thrown into the river and thereby help us to cross the river of life.

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

:sl:

Reading this thread has helped me clearly recognize the superiority and intelligence of pure monotheism and the futility and incompetence of polythiesm and pantheism in all its shapes and forms. Thank you for that K.Venugopal.

{Say, "Have you considered your 'partners' whom you invoke besides Allah? Show me what they have created from the earth, or have they partnership with Him in the heavens? Or have We given them a book so they are standing on evidence therefrom? No, rather, the wrongdoers do not promise each other except delusion."}[al-Fatir; 40]

[Faye]

I only speak for myself and I think that is appropriate, because Hinduism is all about individual freedom.

Is there anything that is considered forbidden by all Hindus? Can a Hindu be religiously degenerate? Are there any basic beliefs that every Hindu must have?

[Muslim Woman]

:w:

Dear brothers and sisters,

Salam alaikum.

The purpose for this thread is just to broaden my knowledge a little bit, i dont know if there are any hindu brothers and sisters amongst us in this forum ....

we had a thread on Hinduism . That was closed bacasue the sis who agreed to give ans refused to continue. Is it possible to re-open the thread & merge the topic ?

[Muhammad]

Greetings K.Venugopal,

Thankyou for your reply.

You urge me to desist from commenting on Islam “before understanding” it. I must say that my comments on Islam or other religions are always based on my understanding of it. Your understanding and my understanding of Islam may not tally, just as your understanding and my understanding of Hinduism may not tally. However, we must have the freedom to express our views.

Different people may have varying understandings, however, some "understandings" are in actual fact misconceptions. Islam is very unlike Hinduism which advocates individual freedom to believe whatever one wishes. Rather, it is based upon principles and evidences and a clear law set out by Allaah the Exalted Himself. Hence it is forbidden to speak about Islam without knowledge, and any understanding must be based upon fact, not conjecture. What you stated earlier was by no means a valid understanding of Islam, in contrast, I felt it was a very big misrepresentation of its teachings. This is not about the freedom to express one's views, rather it is about commenting with factual knowledge, not misleading ideas.

For example, when I said “Islam is an idol worshipping religion”, I meant it in the context of Islam separating the Creator and creation in perpetuity. This separation is common in all religions, including Hinduism. But Hinduism has a teaching, called Advaita, of which one school says that the Creator and His creation is one and the same. It is from this point of view that I called Islam an idol worshipping religion - for anything outside of you is an idol for you.

Thankyou for clarifying your context, though I disagree with this reasoning. When you mention the term "idol-worship", it immediately brings to mind a certain concept, and the word "idol" is specifically used in reference to an image or other material object representing a deity to which religious worship is addressed. How then can you generalise the meaning to such an extent that "anything outside of you is an idol"?

Islam is crytal clear on its purity of monotheism. Anyone who has read the Qur'an will notice how severely Allaah condemns any notion of associating partners with Him. So for someone to distort the meaning of "idol-worship" and lay claims on Islam in this regard, it is not only highly offensive but also illusive.

On the question of a husband’s right to beat his wife – I have called it an eternal right because this right is written in the Quran and I simply take it for granted, according to my understanding of Islam, that what is written in the Quran is immutable.

The Qur'an as a source is undoubtedly unchangeable, yes, but it is the understanding here that is objectionable. The notion of "wife-beating" is nothing more than a misconception that has been refuted countless times. Here are some links to help you:

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...e-beating.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...erse-34-a.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...erior-men.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ns-rights.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...info-asap.html
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...Misconceptions
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...Misconceptions
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...Misconceptions
http://www.islamicboard.com/miscella...tus-ummah.html


Regards.

[AvarAllahNoor]

Since all Indians or Hindus are not rishis or yogis, can you please tell me of some people among the rest who, according to you, are true and there to help uneducated people.

One out of a million would be percieved to be a real rishi or yogi. Wearing the garbs of one does not transform you.

Please tell me about worshiping that which can float when thrown into the river and thereby help us to cross the river of life

The worship of the FORMLESS (Something hindus are not accustomed to as they seem to think an idol is the form of God, so one must dress, and prostrate before it)

The Formless will take you across the ocean of life and death with a mere glance. :D

[K.Venugopal]

The worship of the FORMLESS (Something hindus are not accustomed to as they seem to think an idol is the form of God, so one must dress, and prostrate before it)

The Formless will take you across the ocean of life and death with a mere glance.[/B] :D

Can you please tell me, if you do not mind, how the worship of the formless is possible? Worship necessarily has to be towards something specific and anything specified ceases to be formless. We can't even say "the" formless. Formless has necessarily to be nothing, silence. The moment we form an idea of the formless, nothingness and silence - we are giving a form to the formless. Formless can only be described negatively - neti, neti - as in the famous Upanishad technique. Therefore "worshiping" the formless only gives a form to the formless. I think Buddhism also has the concept of the formless and nothingness when it uses the word "shunya".

[K.Venugopal]

Greetings K.Venugopal,

Thankyou for your reply.

Different people may have varying understandings, however, some "understandings" are in actual fact misconceptions. Islam is very unlike Hinduism which advocates individual freedom to believe whatever one wishes. Rather, it is based upon principles and evidences and a clear law set out by Allaah the Exalted Himself. Hence it is forbidden to speak about Islam without knowledge, and any understanding must be based upon fact, not conjecture. What you stated earlier was by no means a valid understanding of Islam, in contrast, I felt it was a very big misrepresentation of its teachings. This is not about the freedom to express one's views, rather it is about commenting with factual knowledge, not misleading ideas.

Thankyou for clarifying your context, though I disagree with this reasoning. When you mention the term "idol-worship", it immediately brings to mind a certain concept, and the word "idol" is specifically used in reference to an image or other material object representing a deity to which religious worship is addressed. How then can you generalise the meaning to such an extent that "anything outside of you is an idol"?

Islam is crytal clear on its purity of monotheism. Anyone who has read the Qur'an will notice how severely Allaah condemns any notion of associating partners with Him. So for someone to distort the meaning of "idol-worship" and lay claims on Islam in this regard, it is not only highly offensive but also illusive.

The Qur'an as a source is undoubtedly unchangeable, yes, but it is the understanding here that is objectionable. The notion of "wife-beating" is nothing more than a misconception that has been refuted countless times. Here are some links to help you:

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...e-beating.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...erse-34-a.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...erior-men.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ns-rights.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...info-asap.html
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...Misconceptions
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...Misconceptions
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...Misconceptions
http://www.islamicboard.com/miscella...tus-ummah.html


Regards.

I congratulate you for your very balanced and courteous response to my comments. When two persons have a differing point of view, it would be well for each to represent his or her point of view and leave it at that - except when clarifications are sought. Here it appears we have each represented our points of view. Any pressing forward further will only result in arguments and that I think is unnecessary, especially on a platform as distinguished as Islamic Board.

Thanks for your intervention, Muhammad. No doubt we will bump into each other again as we keep posting our points of view in this and other threads.

[K.Venugopal]

Reading this thread has helped me clearly recognize the superiority and intelligence of pure monotheism and the futility and incompetence of polythiesm and pantheism in all its shapes and forms. Thank you for that K.Venugopal.

So many ways to be enlightened - directly and indirectly.

[K.Venugopal]

Is there anything that is considered forbidden by all Hindus?

There is nothing that is commonly forbidden amongst all Hindus except denying anyone the right to live as he or she wishes to so long as such living is not at the expense of others. This has given rise to the famous live-and-let-live culture of the Hindus.

Can a Hindu be religiously degenerate?

I don’t see the possibility, unless that person failed to give the right of living or freedom of worship to others.

Are there any basic beliefs that every Hindu must have?

The word ‘must’ does not apply to the Hindus in the sense of following any particular person's or teaching’s instructions. Hindus have, amongst themselves, formed innumerable communities – communities based on caste, specific deities, regions, languages etc. But the common thread running through them all is the understanding that every individual’s destiny is the consequence of his or her own actions. An individual’s position in life is due to his or her own actions in the previous lives and his future position or circumstance will depend on his present actions. This is known as the famous Law of Karma in Hinduism. All Hindus also believe that we can break free from this cycle of birth and death if we wake up to the truth of what we really. This calls for taking to meditative processes under the guidance of a Guru. So you could say progressing on the spiritual path under the guidance of a Guru is another idea that is common amongt all Hindus.

Hinduism calls itself Sanatana Dharma – or the Eternal Harmony. Anything that creates disharmony will sooner or later invite retribution from the forces of equilibrium which are inherent in existence.

Hinduism is not a religion with a sacred ‘do’s and ‘don't’s list applicable for everyone. (In fact Hinduism could be better said to be a religious culture rather than a single religion.) It seeks to awaken us to the truth of our nature. It says whatever it is that we are seeking, call it God, truth, happiness, success - whatever, it lies in the very nature of what we are. That it is outside of us is only an illusion (maya in Sanskrit). In other words, everything is in our mind. If we know the art of having a collected mind, we shall awaken to the truth our perfection and the perfection of our circumstances. This knowledge is the goal of Hindu teachings. Believing or faith is only the initial faltering steps to the achievement of freedom - freedom from all sense of lack.

[AvarAllahNoor]

Can you please tell me, if you do not mind, how the worship of the formless is possible? Worship necessarily has to be towards something specific and anything specified ceases to be formless. We can't even say "the" formless. Formless has necessarily to be nothing, silence. The moment we form an idea of the formless, nothingness and silence - we are giving a form to the formless. Formless can only be described negatively - neti, neti - as in the famous Upanishad technique. Therefore "worshiping" the formless only gives a form to the formless. I think Buddhism also has the concept of the formless and nothingness when it uses the word "shunya".

By reciting his verses, by repeating his name. Who says you have to have an item to prostrate before? The Shabad is the word, and that alone is the worship of Nirankar (Formless) - Formless isn't a negative term, it's talks of the attribute of the Divine Creator, who is everywhere, yet cannot be seen my the human eye. Yet, is able to penetrate the mind and soul once we meditate upon him.

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

Seeing as the original topic has been addressed, I believe this thread can be closed to prevent us going further off-topic. Also, I believe there was once a thread about questions regarding Hinduism, so it might be better to continue any further questions there.

If I may add a last little reply to a comment made earlier:

When two persons have a differing point of view, it would be well for each to represent his or her point of view and leave it at that - except when clarifications are sought. Here it appears we have each represented our points of view. Any pressing forward further will only result in arguments and that I think is unnecessary, especially on a platform as distinguished as Islamic Board.

Thank you K.Venugopal for your willingness towards respectful dialogue. I agree that argumentation does not give way to constructive discussion. But one thing to clarify is that I was not simply offering a different point of view, rather I was attempting to give a clarification. Sometimes both "views" cannot be correct when they clearly conflict, hence one must be right and the other wrong.

Peace.


Thread Closed.