The Cow

[barney]

[7.148] And Musa's people made of their ornaments a calf after him, a (mere) body, which gave a mooing sound. What! could they not see that it did not speak to them nor guide them m the way? They took it (for worship) and they were unjust.

Hi, I know this is in the refutation section, the reason will become clear in a second.

Here,the Jews have just made a golden calf.
That apparently Moo's.

They are in a windblasted, empty, void of a hellhole desert.20 miles away there is a small rock, but thats about it,I'm sure some forum members have even been to the place and know it contains sand and air and more sand.
Added to this,they are in two thousand six hundred years before Mohammed, bang in the middle of the Iron Age and can just about make pots with naff pictures on them or a bumpy spear.

How do they make a mooing cow. Where are the batteries? Where is the sound sampler?

I live in England in the 21st century, and I cant make a gold mooing cow.

Is the Cow mooing because its supernaturally mooing? Which God is making it moo? When the surah says it dosnt speak to them. Isnt a Cow mooing speaking? What are they wanting, it to start tapdancing and kareokeing in ancient hebrew?

I'm pretty staunch agnostic, but if i made a golden cow and it started mooing, i would start asking it quite a lot of theological questions to determine if it was worth worshipping.

[crayon]

yeah, i read nothing about my weird story, lol..

here's what answering christianity has to say about it: http://www.answering-christianity.co.../qb007_moo.htm

Allah Almighty didn't give any miracle to any idol. Here is what Minister Abdullah Yusuf Ali had to say about the "lowing of the image":
"The lowing of the golden calf was obviously a deception practised by the Egyptian promoters of the cult. Lytton in his "last Days of Pompeii" exposes the deception practised by the priests of Isis. Men hidden behind images imposed on the credulity of the commanalty." [2]
The Jews knew about this trick and they repented after they erred:
"When they repented, and saw That they had erred, They said: 'If our Lord Have not mercy upon us And forgive us, we shall Indeed be of those who perish. (The Noble Quran, 7:149)"

[barney]

yeah, i read nothing about my weird story, lol..

here's what answering christianity has to say about it: http://www.answering-christianity.co.../qb007_moo.htm

Crayon, please pardon my ignorance of this.
The Cow then was already some deity worshipped by the Egyptians? and they set the golden calf up as a PR stunt to fool the jews?

By hiding behind it and mooing?

I am sure that the egyptians worshipped at some point a cow god, and all you need is succeptibility i suppose.
Penn and Teller in those days or indeed in 33AD could have made a fair trade out of it.


In short then the Cow's mooing is a contrick, or from my veiwpoint a "miracle" that happened to be discovered, and people fell back on their devotion to Yahweh?

[crayon]

I'm afraid this is one of the quranic stories which I know about as much as you do...:-[

I'm currently reading this, though, maybe it will answer your question:
http://www.islamfrominside.com/Pages/Tafsir/Tafsir(7-152).html

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[جوري]

Crayon, please pardon my ignorance of this.
The Cow then was already some deity worshipped by the Egyptians? and they set the golden calf up as a PR stunt to fool the jews?

By hiding behind it and mooing?

I am sure that the egyptians worshipped at some point a cow god, and all you need is succeptibility i suppose.
Penn and Teller in those days or indeed in 33AD could have made a fair trade out of it.


In short then the Cow's mooing is a contrick, or from my veiwpoint a "miracle" that happened to be discovered, and people fell back on their devotion to Yahweh?

[QUOTE]

[7.148] And Musa's people made of their ornaments a calf after him, a (mere) body, which gave a mooing sound.

for starters, when you want to quote the quran do it properly, or do you think folks won't know the difference when you quote a novice like shakir from the rest? or when you get something from a shiite website?

وَاتَّخَذَ قَوْمُ مُوسَى مِن بَعْدِهِ مِنْ حُلِيِّهِمْ عِجْلاً جَسَدًا لَّهُ خُوَارٌ أَلَمْ يَرَوْاْ أَنَّهُ لاَ يُكَلِّمُهُمْ وَلاَ يَهْدِيهِمْ سَبِيلاً اتَّخَذُوهُ وَكَانُواْ ظَالِمِينَ {148}

[Pickthal 7:148] And the folk of Moses, after (he left them), chose a calf (for worship), (made) out of their ornaments, of saffron hue, which gave a lowing sound. Saw they not that it spake not unto them nor guided them to any way? They chose it, and became wrong-doers.


[Yusufali 7:148] The people of Moses made, in his absence, out of their ornaments, the image of calf, (for worship): it seemed to low: did they not see that it could neither speak to them, nor show them the way? They took it for worship and they did wrong.

Asad: (148) AND IN his absence the people of Moses took to worshipping the effigy of a calf [made] of their ornaments, which gave forth a lowing sound." 3 Did they not see that it could neither speak unto them nor guide them in any way? [And yet] they took to worshipping it, for they were evildoers: (149) although [later,] when they would smite their hands in remorse,"' having perceived that they had gone astray, they would say, "Indeed, unless our Sustainer have mercy on us and grant us forgiveness,--


That aside--, No-- the cow wasn't a diety worshipped by the Egyptians!
You know jack of ancient Egyptian history so I'd lay off your usual dullard surmisals--
.. the Jews stole the gold of egyptians, as they were leaving Egypt to flee the pharaohs tyranny, they thought it clever to take something of the indigenes for their road trip, and they having as much capacity to scope infinity as you, desired something of a low common denominator to worship, I am sure you are familiar with that desire as I see you employing it often.. They then built a golden calf after melting the gold and when Moses was visited by the angel Gabriel, one of the tribesmen captured the loose material consisting of grains and rock where the archangel had stepped to give of his essence, life to the cow!

Hope that takes care of your query until you come up with the next platitude...
as for your own rendition of the events, you can keep it for your poker buddies!

cheers

[barney]

[QUOTE=Skye Ephémérine;997312]

They then built a golden calf after melting the gold and when Moses was visited by the angel Gabriel, one of the tribesmen captured the loose material consisting of grains and rock where the archangel had stepped to give of his essence, life to the cow!

Ahh! Hi PA. Your posts are always great after i have clipped out the insults and bad manners. They're very very very short, but great. :D

It looks like you have some infomation here that the cow mooed because Gabrial made it moo? Is that correct?

Why would he/She/it do that? And where do you draw your source from?

EDIT: Just read Crayons link. A con artist/magician chucked moses's foot print dust into the smelter and this allowed the cow to moo.
That pretty much clears it up.

Thanks.

[جوري]

Ahh! Hi PA. Your posts are always great after i have clipped out the insults and bad manners. They're very very very short, but great. :D

yes as we say in Arabic khyer ilkalam ma qala wa dal..
glad you can censor some of mine out.. I wholeheartedly believe that your entire inane questions should be edited for content.. meh.. this forum is very allowing..

It looks like you have some infomation here that the cow mooed because Gabrial made it moo? Is that correct?

No, that is not correct.. for such a short post I don't understand why you still maintain your reading and comprehension impediment?

Why would he/She/it do that? And where do you draw your source from?

EDIT: Just read Crayons link. A con artist/magician chucked moses's foot print dust into the smelter and this allowed the cow to moo.
That pretty much clears it up.

Thanks.

my source is proper schooling.. you should try it sometime?
He the Jew, didn't take Moses' footprints, rather the dust where the archangel had been .. he is considered 'aroo7' from his essence there is life!
as well as communication with all the messengers
I know you love wiki as the ultimate educational reservoir .. you can read about them all here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angels_in_Islam


cheers

[barney]

Again , thanks for the link, the clarifications, and the poor mannered delivery. :D

[Fazl Ahmad]

How do they make a mooing cow. Where are the batteries? Where is the sound sampler?

I'm not sure if this has already been mentioned, but the reason the idol calf could make a vocalization was because a jinn entered into it to encourage the people to worship it.

[barney]

Oh , so theres some conflicting ideas about it?
Theory 1) The dust of Gabriels footprint acting as a poorer-quality life creating essence.
Theory 2) Jinn's hiding inside it
Theory 3) From Crayons link Moses departs for Sinai, his whole being is suffused with the power of the Divine attraction that calls him to Itself. Samiri notices something in the dust of the footsteps of Moses. It is as if there is a trace, a perfume, a presence left behind in the footsteps of those who are close to God Moses's footprints had animating dust.

Anyway, thanks everyone.

[Tania]

In the Bible you will find exactly like in YusufAli translation the cow its not mooing. (it seemed)
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P2D.HTM

[AvarAllahNoor]

That explains why Hindus worship cows, it's the moooing...

[barney]

In the Bible you will find exactly like in YusufAli translation the cow its not mooing. (it seemed)
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P2D.HTM

Thats interesting Tania.
The cow was seeming to be mooing.
So it perhaps was a case of Group hysteria similar to the Miracle of the sun in 1956AD or the Feeding of the 5 thousand in 27AD?

[Chuck]

Thats interesting Tania.
The cow was seeming to be mooing.
So it perhaps was a case of Group hysteria similar to the Miracle of the sun in 1956AD or the Feeding of the 5 thousand in 27AD?

In Quranic version there is not much importance to mooing or not mooing. Samiri did made trick to create sound out of the statue but I doubt it that was the main reason majority of Israelites started worshiping golden calf, and neither it is emphasised in the Quran. Here is the Quranic version written on wikipedia which is accurate imo:

The Quranic Version of the episode is similar in most respects, except that the golden calf is constructed by a man named Samiri, rather than Aaron. Samiri claims that Moses has disappeared, and the Israelites have to find a new god. To this end, Samiri makes a golden calf from the gold jewelry brought out of Egypt.

Aaron, who is acting as leader in Moses' absence, attempts to prevent them from worshipping the statue, but is unsuccessful. When Moses does return, he is initially infuriated at the pagan ritual and Aaron's inability to stop it. Moses then exiles Samiri and orders the golden calf burnt and its ashes cast into the sea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_...uranic_Version

[barney]

Arron made the Jews eat the ashes in the bible, but thats much of a muchness. Its a long trek to the sea when you cant find your way out of a 150 mile long desert over a 40 year period. Still.
I totally understand the lack of emphasis.
I would personally place that due to the original authors imagining noone would question such a small point. Its actually a fairly big point, as several scholars have discovered, requiring ex-quaranic-ex bibalic rulings to explain how the cow mooed. Crikey, its certainly neccessery for it not to be another deity.
So in jump the djinns and the demons and the dust of the angels and the sleight of hand of the traitor, all scrabbeling for priority. Nobody can explain for certain how the cow mooed.

I'll file this one under god knows best!

[جوري]

In Quranic version there is not much importance to mooing or not mooing. Samiri did made trick to create sound out of the statue but I doubt it that was the main reason majority of Israelites started worshiping golden calf, and neither it is emphasised in the Quran. Here is the Quranic version written on wikipedia which is accurate imo:

for some reason what annoys me most out of this, is when they write Gold brought out of Egypt.. when it is Gold stolen.. GOLD STOLEN..

everything else is irrelevant, small minds want to see small Gods, that can do seemingly 'supernatural' things before their very eyes at this very moment, It is human to want to search for the reason behind, but as most people have that hurried condition (you see it very evident in most atheists here) they want immediate gratification or else God doesn't exist..

خُلِقَ الْإِنسَانُ مِنْ عَجَلٍ سَأُرِيكُمْ آيَاتِي فَلَا تَسْتَعْجِلُونِ {37}

[Pickthal 21:37] Man is made of haste. I shall show you My portents, but ask Me not to hasten.

وَيَقُولُونَ مَتَى هَذَا الْوَعْدُ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ {38}

[Pickthal 21:38] And they say: When will this promise (be fulfilled), if ye are truthful?

لَوْ يَعْلَمُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا حِينَ لَا يَكُفُّونَ عَن وُجُوهِهِمُ النَّارَ وَلَا عَن ظُهُورِهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يُنصَرُونَ {39}

[Pickthal 21:39] If those who disbelieved but knew the time when they will not be able to drive off the fire from their faces and from their backs, and they will not be helped!

بَلْ تَأْتِيهِم بَغْتَةً فَتَبْهَتُهُمْ فَلَا يَسْتَطِيعُونَ رَدَّهَا وَلَا هُمْ يُنظَرُونَ {40}

[Pickthal 21:40] Nay, but it will come upon them unawares so that it will stupefy them, and they will be unable to repel it, neither will they be reprieved.

وَلَقَدِ اسْتُهْزِئَ بِرُسُلٍ مِّن قَبْلِكَ فَحَاقَ بِالَّذِينَ سَخِرُوا مِنْهُم مَّا كَانُوا بِهِ يَسْتَهْزِئُون {41}

[Pickthal 21:41] Messengers before thee, indeed, were mocked, but that whereat they mocked surrounded those who scoffed at them.

قُلْ مَن يَكْلَؤُكُم بِاللَّيْلِ وَالنَّهَارِ مِنَ الرَّحْمَنِ بَلْ هُمْ عَن ذِكْرِ رَبِّهِم مُّعْرِضُونَ {42}

[Pickthal 21:42] Say: Who guardeth you in the night or in the day from the Beneficent? Nay, but they turn away from mention of their Lord!


Now doesn't that describe the psychology of every kaffir?

:w:

[جوري]

something good should come out of this crappy awful thread..
Enjoy and excerpt from suret Al-anbya

Media Tags are no longer supported

the whole sura

http://www.islamway.com/?iw_s=outdoo...1&rm_size=2.57

[barney]

I dont think Gold was Brought out of Egypt actually skye.

The Egyptians never mentioned the Jews until well after the supposed exodus and then only as a foriegn tribe. There isnt a shred of archeology or a single document that links the hebrews as ever being in Egypt or the sianai desert in any number.

As for atheists wanting to see miracles every second on demand, well that would be nice. even benificent and omnipotent, but some things are a bit tricky and anyway, Im an Agnostic Deist, not Atheist, most of the time, so wishing that would be futile. Immediate gratification is totally out of the picture and indeed to think this is barking, not up the wrong tree, but up the wrong stalactite in the wrong dimension.

[جوري]

I dont think Gold was Brought out of Egypt actually skye.

The Egyptians never mentioned the Jews until well after the supposed exodus and then only as a foriegn tribe. There isnt a shred of archeology or a single document that links the hebrews as ever being in Egypt or the sianai desert in any number.

I don't care for your theories, I believe you to be gravely undereducated!
There is tons of resources.. if anything at all, in the quran and sunnah are weighty enough as well as a indefinite number of books in libraries all over Egypt.. perhaps if you'd take out a book over googling or loaning any argument your own desired rendition, you might learn something!

As for atheists wanting to see miracles every second on demand, well that would be nice. even benificent and omnipotent, but some things are a bit tricky and anyway, Im an Agnostic Deist, not Atheist, most of the time, so wishing that would be futile. Immediate gratification is totally out of the picture and indeed to think this is barking, not up the wrong tree, but up the wrong stalactite in the wrong dimension.

There is nothing tricky.. there is simply abundance at the baseline, that some think, eh well I am breathing, or I am peeing or I am eating, well I am enjoying the day, without a thought to the biochemistry, physiology, anatomy, or even aesthetics behind it all .. just a sense of disdain and entitlement, which at the end of the day really doesn't concern me...

Each soul is held in pledge by its own deeds.. you don't have to harangue folks of what you deem at variance with the way you reason!

[barney]

I am aware of your disdain for any mortal creature, but i'm surprised to learn of your massive research into egyptology and personal research indepth into these weighty books. I bow to the long hours you spent in the libarys of Cairo. I truely have misjudged and you have my apologies.

In Hope of your links to the archeological proof of the Exodus, and non-scriptual explaination of the Cow.

[جوري]

I am aware of your disdain for any mortal creature, but i'm surprised to learn of your massive research into egyptology and personal research indepth into these weighty books. I bow to the long hours you spent in the libarys of Cairo. I truely have misjudged and you have my apologies.

In Hope of your links to the archeological proof of the Exodus, and non-scriptual explaination of the Cow.

I don't have disdain for any mortal creature! those are your own assumptions! aren't you the same fellow who on the adjacent thread was quoting me wiki with such smugness believing that somehow it would disprove the Quran? and I know that is exactly what you were after, and ended up proving exactly my point? which for some reason alludes you ( I wonder if it does still?).. although I see you reading the post now, perhaps we can get an Oh my God out of you...

I am simply meeting your mockery of religion, with mockery of how your own reason works.. the mere fact that you can't understand that having a lesser number of days in a week means I can end up with more weeks in a month, already tells me that most things work in your mind in a slightly askew manner...

Why do I have to justify anything to you religious or not?
If you had an ounce of courtesy and consideration when you write something to make it befitting of the magistrate of God, I might consider my responses...

I am a firm believer that everyone is here to teach me something, we are all to learn from one another.. perhaps your person here is here so I can get a grip on my impatience and temperament with people of your nature.. but I am a work in progress...
which leaves me to question, truly, what are you here for?

You want a non-biblical sense of events, well hasn't your own mind thought you a rational response?

[barney]

Skye. A few points.
If you are actually veiwing who is reading which post. Then seriously, you have too much time on your hands, even for a 6000+ poster.

Second: The wiki quote was ironic. Sure wiki is a great source, but its fallible. I refer to wiki as do you, regularly. is your referal more potent as a muslim? Truly it must be.

I would appreciate some mockery of my reasoning, but so far i havnt actually seen it. To mock me and it to take effect you would have to undermine something i have written. To undermine it is by effectively refuting, based on measurable fact. This happened to a certain extent once with the miracle of googlearth proving a geographic measurement by Mohammed. I would have accepted Allah apart from the evidence of geographical measurement availible by astrobales. (A fine Middle eastern invention)

So far, you havnt refuted a syllable.

[جوري]

Skye. A few points.
If you are actually veiwing who is reading which post. Then seriously, you have too much time on your hands, even for a 6000+ poster.

your points can always be taken apart, as they are indeed silly.. I clicked on who is on line in lieu of subscriptions it is right beneath it.. it is where I and most folk I assume go to see if there are replies to posts as I don't get alerts by email.. hope that is ok with you?

Second: The wiki quote was ironic. Sure wiki is a great source, but its fallible. I refer to wiki as do you, regularly. is your referal more potent as a muslim? Truly it must be.

I don't understand what that means.. I don't refer to wiki, I have maintained on various separate threads here that it is actually not a reliable source. the last time I posted the link on angels I have stated in the same breath, I know how much YOU LIKE WIKI as it caters to your wavelength. So it comes as no shock that you used it today.. I simply think you a google scholar --that is if you can actually understand what it is you are googling before you paste it with a pre-mature guffaw only to end up with your foot in your mouth and leave us to wonder really where the British education system failed you ?..

I would appreciate some mockery of my reasoning, but so far i havnt actually seen it. To mock me and it to take effect you would have to undermine something i have written. To undermine it is by effectively refuting, based on measurable fact. This happened to a certain extent once with the miracle of googlearth proving a geographic measurement by Mohammed. I would have accepted Allah apart from the evidence of geographical measurement availible by astrobales. (A fine Middle eastern invention)

Shouldn't you at least wait until your math mishap is erased from memory before you regain the confidence of a chief gorilla pounding its chest? if You can find a logical answer to everything, until the number of excuses you make and the absurdity of them having occurred in the way you theorize as very improbable. You don't even write on a level for your threads to merit a refutation--- He was out mountain climbing in high altitude and experienced hypoxia, he took poetry lessons, he was an excellent seafarer, he had a pocket astrolabe, he performed autopsies on pregnant cadavers, he was a mathematician, he was a politician, he was an herbalist, he was a cosmologist, he was an illusionist, he was bilingual and often visited Greek libraries, he was a skilled warrior, he was a historian he was a fortune teller ... and did it all because he enjoyed persecution, sleeping on palm leaves, and going to bed hungry?! You are hilarious..
Hey if that is what tickles your fancy, then so be it!

So far, you havnt refuted a syllable.

Iwill leave that for the discerning reader to judge!

cheers

[barney]

Its been a fair few posts since anything relevent to the Cow mooing was posted,and is merely a platform for uncouth members to ply arrogance. So I will take it there are just the three explainations, and the thread could be closed

[YusufNoor]

I dont think Gold was Brought out of Egypt actually skye.

The Egyptians never mentioned the Jews until well after the supposed exodus and then only as a foriegn tribe. There isnt a shred of archeology or a single document that links the hebrews as ever being in Egypt or the sianai desert in any number.

As for atheists wanting to see miracles every second on demand, well that would be nice. even benificent and omnipotent, but some things are a bit tricky and anyway, Im an Agnostic Deist, not Atheist, most of the time, so wishing that would be futile. Immediate gratification is totally out of the picture and indeed to think this is barking, not up the wrong tree, but up the wrong stalactite in the wrong dimension.

:sl:


'sup Barn,

you might want to do a search for "the Real Mt Sinai."

http://www.arkdiscovery.com/mt__sinai_found.htm

they, of course can look a little goofy at first, but if you take the time, you will see [and i forget where, atm] that there IS evidence for the crossing of the Gulf of Aqaba, which puts the Hebrew in Saudi Arabia and NOT Sinai. which, btw, would account for the lack of evidence in the Sinai Peninsula.

have some fun with it and check out some of the different sites.

:w:


ps: and be nice to Purest, will ya! :D

[Tania]

something good should come out of this crappy awful thread..

Its not a crappy arwful thread. Barney discovered an important issue from a cow life: the moo. But this cow being made from gold obviously can't moo. In the Bible its not mooing but in Quran its mentioned the possibilty that cow to moo. Reading the diffrent english translation of Quran i think it might be a word hardly to translate. And don't forget the arab words have several meanings hardly to translate. Also, might belong to the old arabic, like latin, so he has a meaning there...which may be wasn't correctly translate. I will go and search in the romanian translation of Quran :-[

[barney]

Hai Yusuf!

Thanks for the link. Intersesting site. The "altar" looks to weigh about 400 tons which must have been quite a strain for 130 year old moses.
The water erosion looks like wind erosion. Still all looks like good fun.

[Keltoi]

This might not be relevant, but in the ancient world there were many cults that grew up out of supposed speaking, singing, screaming, etc idols. The men and women behind these cults manufactured ways to create sound so that it appeared to be coming from the idol. They were called "magicians" of course. I'm not saying that was the case in regards to the calf, but there were indeed ways to make a crowd believe an idol is speaking to them...much less make them believe they hear a "moo."

[Muhammad]

Greetings and :sl:,

This is what it says in one of the commentaries on the Qur'an (Tafseer ibn Katheer):

Story of worshipping the Calf


Allah describes the misguidance of those who worshipped the calf that As-Samiri made for them from the ornaments they borrowed from the Copts. He made the shape of a calf with these ornaments and threw in it a handful of dust from the trace of the horse that the Angel Jibril was riding, and the calf seemed to moo. This occurred after Musa went for the appointed term with his Lord, where Allah told him about what happened when he was on Mount Tur. Allah said about His Honorable Self,


[قَالَ فَإِنَّا قَدْ فَتَنَّا قَوْمَكَ مِن بَعْدِكَ وَأَضَلَّهُمُ السَّامِرِىُّ ]

((Allah) said: "Verily, We have tried your people in your absence, and As-Samiri has led them astray'') [20:85]. The scholars of Tafsir have different views over the calf, whether it actually became alive and mooing, or if it remained made of gold, but the air entering it made it appear to be mooing. These are two opinions. Allah knows best. ...

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=7&tid=18743


It's important to remember, when discussing verses of the Qur'an, that we need to study them with knowledge and refer to the scholars. Putting forward our own theories and limited understanding is not allowed.

May I also remind members to discuss topics in a civilised manner without needless arguments and insults. If you think someone is being offensive, please report the post to the moderators - do not take it upon yourself to offend them in return.


I think the thread can now be closed.