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Thinker
09-04-2008, 05:55 PM
Please correct my understanding of the below aspects of Islam:

From what I have learned, Muslims lead their lives based upon what is said in the Qur’an, the Hadith and the teachings of scholars (if there are any other source tell me).

The Qur’an
The Qur’an is as it is and is translated and interpreted by those who have been accepted as qualified to translate and interpret it.

The Hadith
The Hadith or is it Hadiths was/were written by the companions after Mohammed’s death and they are their memories of:

1. what he said and what he did in relation to explaining and acting out verses from the Qur’an written down by them for others to better understand the meaning of that verse.

OR

2. what he said and what he did in any aspect of any part of his life for others to copy by example.

Scholars
The teachings of scholars are restricted to, through critical and objective examinations of the evidence interpret verses from the Qur’an and Hadith
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Thinker
09-05-2008, 09:04 AM
wow - 15 hours and a zero response - I didn't realise this was such a difficult question?

What I was hoping to develop in this thread was an understanding of the weighting applied to the different layers e.g. is the opinion of a scholar as sacrosanct as the words of the Qur'an
Reply

aamirsaab
09-05-2008, 09:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
....
The Qur’an
The Qur’an is as it is and is translated and interpreted by those who have been accepted as qualified to translate and interpret it.
Bingo.

The Hadith
The Hadith or is it Hadiths was/were written by the companions after Mohammed’s death and they are their memories of:

1. what he said and what he did in relation to explaining and acting out verses from the Qur’an written down by them for others to better understand the meaning of that verse.

OR

2. what he said and what he did in any aspect of any part of his life for others to copy by example.
It's sort of a mixture of both really.

Scholars
The teachings of scholars are restricted to, through critical and objective examinations of the evidence interpret verses from the Qur’an and Hadith
Sort of. Scholars are those who have studied the holy text. Usually, this requires them to have studied and understood arabic.

In terms of weight of importance (this is a rough guide btw):
1) Qur'aan (since this is the main holy text)
2) Ahadith (since these are the actions and sayings of the Prophet, often relate to the Quranic teachings, too)
3) Scholars/sheiks (since these are the guys/gals who interpretate the Quran and offer explanation. I bunched the two together for simplicity)
4) Imaams (These are the guys that lead the prayers. You could argue that they are joint number 3 also but this is simply a guide to get your head around it all)
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
09-05-2008, 10:12 AM
sorry for the late reply, its Ramadan you see so i'll most likely only even see your posts during working hours :p

again apologies :)



format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Please correct my understanding of the below aspects of Islam:

From what I have learned, Muslims lead their lives based upon what is said in the Qur’an, the Hadith and the teachings of scholars (if there are any other source tell me).
thats correct sir :) !

The Qur’an
The Qur’an is as it is and is translated and interpreted by those who have been accepted as qualified to translate and interpret it.
the Quran as it is, the original arabic, from the understanding of the sahabi's (the best tafseer - tafseer meaning interpretation - is of the sahabi's, they understood it as it was meant to be understood, as our prophet sallallahi alaihi wasallaam taught)
so yeah we take the Quran NOT AS INTERPRETER BY ANY OLD SCHOLAR (allow me to make that clear) but as interpreted and intended by the Prophet sallallahi alaihi wasallaam

The Hadith
The Hadith or is it Hadiths was/were written by the companions after Mohammed’s death and they are their memories of:

2. what he said and what he did in any aspect of any part of his life for others to copy by example.
the hadiths are sayings/teachings of the prophets and his actions, we can derive rulings from them.

Scholars
The teachings of scholars are restricted to, through critical and objective examinations of the evidence interpret verses from the Qur’an and Hadith
Also through their closeness to the ways of the earlier generation, if they examine the Quran n hadith CLOSELY yet stray from the understanding of the earlier generations then they cant be trusted :)
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Thinker
09-05-2008, 12:47 PM
Thak you for your helpful replies to my questions.

One of the reasons I posed these questions is because, for me looking in from the outside, there seems to be little difference given, in weight and value, from one text to another.

For example ‘scholars’ are men and as such are fallible. And, for the many scholars that say “that means x” there are many others that say “that means y.” Yet when someone asks a question people answer it with a quote from a scholar and it appears to have the same weight as if it were a clear verse from the Qur’an.

The other misgiving I have with an edict issued by a scholar is that after 1700 years of scholars giving their scholarly advice on this or that, every question must have been asked and answered. If that is the case present day scholars must be giving different answers than previous day scholars and if that’s the case, scholars in the future may give different answers.

The other issue I have with scholars is (again a human frailty) if someone asks a scholar “Is it OK for me to do this?” the scholar is under greater pressure to say NO because he’s less likely to be criticised for being pious than he is for being too lenient or soft.

I wonder whether the general drift towards a more radical interpretation of Islamic text is because it’s easier (brings less criticism) for scholars to err on the side of a more radical interpretation.
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IbnAbdulHakim
09-05-2008, 01:03 PM
scholars are not infallible. and new issues do rise as times/science/technology change therefore there is always a need for scholars.

if a scholar is apologetic or pleasing other then Allaah then he'll respond to Allah when he meets him, we should just concentrate on sticking to the ones who stick most strictly to classical islaam (ie the way the early generations knew it)
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YusufNoor
09-05-2008, 01:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Thak you for your helpful replies to my questions.

One of the reasons I posed these questions is because, for me looking in from the outside, there seems to be little difference given, in weight and value, from one text to another.

For example ‘scholars’ are men and as such are fallible. And, for the many scholars that say “that means x” there are many others that say “that means y.” Yet when someone asks a question people answer it with a quote from a scholar and it appears to have the same weight as if it were a clear verse from the Qur’an.

The other misgiving I have with an edict issued by a scholar is that after 1700 years of scholars giving their scholarly advice on this or that, every question must have been asked and answered. If that is the case present day scholars must be giving different answers than previous day scholars and if that’s the case, scholars in the future may give different answers.

this is addressed in the video below

The other issue I have with scholars is (again a human frailty) if someone asks a scholar “Is it OK for me to do this?” the scholar is under greater pressure to say NO because he’s less likely to be criticised for being pious than he is for being too lenient or soft.

actually the scholar is "under pressure" to give the correct answer and fear Allah[swt] and NOT his colleagues!

I wonder whether the general drift towards a more radical interpretation of Islamic text is because it’s easier (brings less criticism) for scholars to err on the side of a more radical interpretation.

this is addressed in the video series below
Peace,

it's Ramadhan, and during Ramadhan we should be concentrating on the Qur'an and taking advantage of the higher Spiritual elevation of the month to improve our understanding of it [and not just having cool iftar parties]; thus you will not get much response to somewhat controversial issues. that's why certain sections are closed.

i offer you this as i would anyone else interested in Islam:

http://www.bilalphilips.com/bilal_pa...sk=view&id=288

go to the bottom and watch the Foundations of Islamic Studies series. it's 21 parts and takes around 18 hours, BUT it's a VERY DETAILED description of Tawheed [Oneness of Allah(swt)] and all of it's aspects, how to approach Tafsir of the Qur'an, how to utilize Ahadeeth and other VERY BASIC pillars of Islam.

i think you get the "best bang for your buck" by watching this and that you will have a MUCH GREATER understanding of Islam, In Sha'a Allah.

:w:
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Thinker
09-05-2008, 06:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
Peace,

i offer you this as i would anyone else interested in Islam:

http://www.bilalphilips.com/bilal_pa...sk=view&id=288

:w:

Thanks for the link, I'll take a look
Reply

Thinker
09-07-2008, 03:41 PM
I asked in this thread how Muslims attached to a particular edicts. I described (rightly or wrongly) Islamic teachings as layers starting with the Qur’an, followed by the Hadith and then the opinions of scholars. I asked about how Muslims weighted the value of one over the other and didn’t get a clear answer.

The question occurred to me after reading a question asked about plucking facial hair and reading the answers given. In fact Muslim readers of that question asked was it a big sin or a little sin implying that transgressions are weighted. In answer to that question great detail was given over what could be plucked, cut, trimmed and what couldn’t and what must be plucked, cut or trimmed. The evidence behind these various edicts was the below two hadith:

The hadeeth of ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood (may Allaah be pleased with him) who said: I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “Allaah has cursed the woman who does tattoos and the one who has them done, the woman who plucks eyebrows (al-naamisah) and the one who has it done (al-mutanammisah), and the one who files her teeth for the purpose of beauty, altering the creation of Allaah.”

And it was narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Umar said: I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “Be different from the mushrikeen: let your beards grow and trim your moustaches

Based upon the above two people saying “I heard the messenger say. . . . “ it appears that scholars have come up with a ruling for what can or cannot and what must or must not be done for any hair on any part of the body.

Now I’m not sure how I can pose the questions that follow without being accused of beaching forum rules but here goes . . . . .

Maybe Mohammed did say what he is reported as saying above but did he really expect that it was going to be written down and become a sin in every age that follwed (it appears that scholars believe it so).

Maybe those people reporting what he said (being human) didn’t quite get it exactly word for word perfect, yet it appears that scholars are presuming they did.

Is God really going to deny someone paradise for plucking a hair?

Also in the first Hadith it talks about Allaah cursing eyebrow pluckers . . . .altering the creation of Allaah but the second Hadith commands that the moustache be trimmed. Would God be so prescriptive to say that it is a sin to trim your beard and a sin not to trim your moustache?

Finally how come I see lots of Muslims with moustaches or without beards; will they go to hell?


. . . . apologies in advance if I’ve broken the rules again!
Reply

Thinker
09-07-2008, 03:43 PM
I’d like to follow up the questions I raised in my last post by offering a suggestion that scholars, being human are subject to the same failings as all of us and in particular I’d like to suggest that within current Islamic climate (and perhaps previously) scholars are particularly inclined towards what I will call a version of Pascal’s Wager.

Pascal’s Wager . . . . Blaise Pascal (17C Mathematician) argued as follows:
If you believe in God and there is no God, you lose nothing,
If you believe in God and there is a God you gain everything (eternal paradise);
If you disbelieve in God and there is no God, you gain nothing (death ends all),
If you disbelieve in God and there is a God, you lose everything (eternal ****ation).
Pascal argued that failure to accept God's existence risks losing everything with no payoff on any count. The best bet, then, is to accept the existence of God.

How do I apply this analogy to the rulings and edicts of Islamic scholars; let us take for example to question of the veil. If a scholar rules that the evidence suggests that a woman does not need to cover her ***** and he is wrong God will punish him; if he rules that woman must cover her ***** God will not punish him, it consequently follows that the scholar has everything to gain and nothing to lose by interpreting the evidence as strictly as possible.

Again I submit the argument for academic discussion, not to offend anybody and in the earnest hope I haven’t broken the rules.
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Thinker
09-09-2008, 08:22 AM
Hi,

Just seen on TV the swearing in of the new President of Pakistan. None of those gathered had a beard, all were either clean shaven or had a moustache. There are hadith that say that men must have beards. This is one of the things I'm having difficulty in understanding - are there some hadiths that Muslims need not adhere to, in which case who decides which ones and on what basis?
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IbnAbdulHakim
09-09-2008, 10:02 AM
^ nope , the people in power these days just dont want to implement islam or shariah...
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Thinker
09-09-2008, 11:08 AM
Hi,

What is the differenec between hadith and hadeeth?
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IbnAbdulHakim
09-09-2008, 11:12 AM
^ the spelling ;D

lol sorry, there is no difference :)
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Thinker
09-19-2008, 08:15 AM
Hi,

How do we define hadith / what qualifies to be defined as an hadith?

I know there are the ‘companions’ whom I presume are the people who were in direct day to day contact with Mohammed and I have read text of them saying “Mohammed told me that it should be done this way” or “I heard Mohammed say this” or “I saw Mohammed do that” and that those things constitute an hadith. My question is – is that where the line is drawn or do they go further to, for example include hearsay - “a companion told me that Mohammed had told him this or that” OR when scholars extrapolate something from two hadith does that become an hadith e.g. if we agree that hadith ‘a’ and hadth ‘b’ are correct it logically follows that we should do *******?

Thanks
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Thinker
09-23-2008, 09:24 AM
I posed a question in a thread where a female member had expressed her shame at having shook a mans hand (handshake).

I asked the question, “where is it written that women are not allowed to shake a mans hand?”

The answer I was given is below:

The Prophet used to take the Pledge of allegiance from the women by words only after reciting this Holy Verse: (60.12) "..that they will not associate anything in worship with Allah." (60.12) And the hand of Allah's Apostle did not touch any woman's hand except the hand of that woman his right hand possessed. (i.e. his captives or his lady slaves).

Rasulullah S.A.W. said, "It is better for a man that a steel nail be driven through the centre of his head rather than if he touches the palm of a strange women."

Prophet S.A.W. said, "The one who touches the hand of a woman without having a lawful relationship with her, will have an ember placed on his palm on the Day of Judgment." (Takmalah, Fath alQadir)

I posed a further question “is every hadith to be read literally; could it not be that when someone says 'touch the hand' they might be using a euphemism for hand meaning something more than hand e.g. ***. As it is the case that some people believe that when God told Adam not to eat the apple he actually didn’t prohibit the eating of apples, he used apple as a euphemism for *** with Eve. . . . . . . I got no answer.

Thinking it through I wonder whether the answer I seek is in the text? Clearly the term “his right hand possess” does mean literally his right arm possess or owns something, it means he possess them and it means more in the context in which that phrase is used, I would suggest that it means that he is entitled to have *** with them. Would it consequently not follow that the hand is used euphemistically to mean having *** with a woman i.e. Allah's Apostle did not touch any woman's hand except the hand of that woman his right hand possessed would mean he didn’t have *** with anyone who wasn’t his wife or his slave?
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جوري
09-23-2008, 10:02 AM
Thinker.. you ask Questions that require some thought.. and personally, I am under the weather with the flu to offer a deep theological response..
so i'll recommend you get this book by Dr. M. M Azmi studies in hadith methodology and literature..
Also Br. Ansar Al 'Adl has written extensively on such topics.. I recommend you use the search engine to browse some of his old threads..

When you don't get the direct response, it is because many of us aren't scholars and don't want to go outside our sphere of expertise transmitting you, wrong info..

Imagine you go to someone asking what to do with the fever your child and you ask a friend who has an experience with children because he has three of them, instructs you to give him an orange flavored baby aspirin .. your friend doesn't know for instance that Aspirin causes Reye's syndrome in young children and could potentially give you fatal advise... or as it turns out your kid has Kawasaki disease, in fact the only disease in children treated amongst other modalities by use of Aspirin..

You don't ask your neighbor, or your mother no matter how wise for what to do with a sick child if you wanted to genuinely help your kid.. you'd take your him/her to a pediatrician and put your trust in his/her best judgment and expertise.. and yes even with the highest level of education there is always that chance for poor judgment even when following established and tried protocol.

Do you catch my drift?
Anyone can offer you an answer, but everyone will also bear the burden if they transmitted you wrong info.. in which case it is best to seek scholarly help,,
Yes scholars err.. but in Islam each individual is responsible for his/her own deeds.. you won't present on the day of judgment stating Sheikh so and so, made this into a prohibition or an allowance.. you have to use your best judgment!

will people be punished for plucking their hair? I really don't know.. I know God forgives all sins except for two.. but that certainly not a carte blanche to go committing all kinds of sins... There is a difference for instance in plucking because you have polycystic ovary disease and are a prisoner to male hormones, and there is plucking by altering the way God made you, so that you end up looking like a drag queen..

Again.. it is a question of best judgment. And whether or not you have a valid excuse for doing what you are doing or not doing in some matters..

In the beginning and in the end, all affairs are relegated to God.
books and thorough research, help one reach an intelligent answer..

all the best

peace
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Thinker
09-23-2008, 10:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Thinker.. you ask Questions that require some thought.. and personally, I am under the weather with the flu to offer a deep theological response..
Thank you Skye for your helpful response :thumbs_up - sorry to hear your'e unwell - hope you get well soon
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Umar001
09-23-2008, 10:57 AM
Hi Thinker,

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
For example ‘scholars’ are men and as such are fallible. And, for the many scholars that say “that means x” there are many others that say “that means y.” Yet when someone asks a question people answer it with a quote from a scholar and it appears to have the same weight as if it were a clear verse from the Qur’an.
If I may clarify, within the realms of scholarship you have different strands of thinking. There may be the ultra-fundamentalist, the middle line scholarship and the ultra-skeptical. I'll give this example in the realms of Biblical and Jesus scholarship as that is what I am familiar with. Some ultra-fundamentalist may claim that the Bible has not changed at all and that we know the authors of the entire Biblical Library. A middle line scholar may weigh the evidence with more credibility and provide you with a mix match of ideas.

So one should first analyse the type of scholarship one is approaching, you may have, within the realms of Islam people who think they are scholars but do not have a grasp of the basics. And thus you end up with different scholars saying different things. Another thing is that sometimes scholars do not have all the evidence and thus give a ruling based on the limited sources they have present at the time.

But when one realises that the scholarship of a scholar, and that this individual is trustworthy and reliable, then since we are not scholars ourselvs we can in some cases rely on his words, just like I rely on a Medical Doctor's words due to my lack of sufficient knowledge to apply medicine.

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
The other misgiving I have with an edict issued by a scholar is that after 1700 years of scholars giving their scholarly advice on this or that, every question must have been asked and answered. If that is the case present day scholars must be giving different answers than previous day scholars and if that’s the case, scholars in the future may give different answers.
Well I do not think so, we have to look at the possibilities. For example, you asked if people have beemn asking questions for 1400 years then surely every question has been previously answered, there are two observations;

1. The answers of the scholars from the previous years are not always easily accessible. The layman may not have the scholarly opinions on a matter of the Companions etc. So the scholars are used as vessels to that knowledge, just like illnesses are classified and symptoms clear, I still in our time go to a Doctor than try read a book on flu and cure myself.

2. We live in a changing world, new inventions in this world mean that new cases arise which need to be dealt with, thus the scholars using the principles of the sharia, provide rulings.

(I have personally noticed that when scholars I have read of give rulings on matters which have previously existed they do reffer to the older scholars, and when it is a new matter they apply the principles.)

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
The other issue I have with scholars is (again a human frailty) if someone asks a scholar “Is it OK for me to do this?” the scholar is under greater pressure to say NO because he’s less likely to be criticised for being pious than he is for being too lenient or soft.

I wonder whether the general drift towards a more radical interpretation of Islamic text is because it’s easier (brings less criticism) for scholars to err on the side of a more radical interpretation.
Scholars have been in the past, and contine in some places to be locked up, the truth they hold, and they believe they are holding the inheritance of their Prophet, is more important than being locked up or losing friends.

I may reply later on a different day to the rest,

And Allah knows best.

Eesa
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Thinker
10-12-2008, 10:30 AM
The Sunnah is defined as: the manner or deeds of Muhammad and validated by the consensus of companions of Muhammad (Sahaba) in Sunni Islam, and the way or deeds of Muhammad and the twelve Imams in Shi'a Islam, while Hadith is a collection of the narrations and approvals. The two words are sometimes taken to be interchangeable.

From what I have learned here and elsewhere I have formed the view that many of the Muslims contributing here believe that they should strive to closely follow the Sunnah (as described above) in some instances searching for the smallest detail of what Muhammad did and said on diverse issues. They do that and copy those examples but ignore other examples of what Muhammed did which today would be socially unaccaptbale or even illegal – how do you reconcile that?
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YusufNoor
10-12-2008, 12:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
The Sunnah is defined as: the manner or deeds of Muhammad and validated by the consensus of companions of Muhammad (Sahaba) in Sunni Islam,

we only call it Sunni Islam to make it distinct from Shi'a, it is in reality Islam. but yes one tries to follow the Qur'an and Sunnah as they were understood by the Sahabah,RA[companions of the Prophet, PBUH].


and the way or deeds of Muhammad and the twelve Imams in Shi'a Islam,

no idea here mate. it's best NOT to commit shirk!

while Hadith is a collection of the narrations and approvals. The two words are sometimes taken to be interchangeable.

the Sunnah and other Qur'anic interpretations would be based on Ahdeeth as SOMEONE would have had to pass that knowledge on.

From what I have learned here and elsewhere I have formed the view that many of the Muslims contributing here believe that they should strive to closely follow the Sunnah (as described above) in some instances searching for the smallest detail of what Muhammad did and said on diverse issues.

i think i follow and agree with this statement. :D

They do that and copy those examples but ignore other examples of what Muhammed did which today would be socially unaccaptbale or even illegal – how do you reconcile that?
Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

what would be socially unaccaptbale or even illegal? if you are asking about more than 1 wife in a non-Muslim country, my understanding is that you can't but many here say that it is allowed.

we are obliged to obey the laws of the country that we are in, and if the laws of a certain country prevent us from following our Deen, then we are obliged to make Hijra, or leave that country.

was that helpful?

:w:
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Thinker
10-12-2008, 02:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

what would be socially unaccaptbale or even illegal? if you are asking about more than 1 wife in a non-Muslim country, my understanding is that you can't but many here say that it is allowed.

we are obliged to obey the laws of the country that we are in, and if the laws of a certain country prevent us from following our Deen, then we are obliged to make Hijra, or leave that country.

was that helpful?

:w:
Thank you for replying to my question your reply was helpful.

I am reluctant to specify examples for fear of appearing insensitive but it seems to me accepted knowledge that several things that Muhammad did (which were obviously accepted and legal at that time) would not be acceptable or even legal today. I consequently struggle to understand the rationale behind trying to discover which hair was plucked or grown when clearly Muslims do not and must not follow certain other things he did?
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YusufNoor
10-12-2008, 04:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Thank you for replying to my question your reply was helpful.

I am reluctant to specify examples for fear of appearing insensitive but it seems to me accepted knowledge that several things that Muhammad did (which were obviously accepted and legal at that time) would not be acceptable or even legal today.

there are several members that would do their best to help you by PM

I consequently struggle to understand the rationale behind trying to discover which hair was plucked or grown when clearly Muslims do not and must not follow certain other things he did?
Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

one has to remember that Islam is what Muslims are SUPPOSED to do and not always what they actually do! i'm sure i posted the Bilal Philips video series before, so i'll post this now:

http://www.muftimenk.co.za/Downloads.html

Mufti Ismail Menk is one of my favorite speakers. listen to his Tafseer lecture given after Taraweh for some VERY KEEN insight onto Islam!

last years lectures are available on dvd-r [5 of them, about 15 hours worth] from SoukIslam in South Africa for about $18 American dollars plus shipping [ i was to purchase some for about $13 during Ramadhan!] link:

http://www.soukislam.com/shopdisplay...ch=Yes&sppp=15

peruse the General lectures section for some specific lectures, i recommend:

Abdud Dunyaa (Slave of the World)

Interfaith Relationship (Voice of the Cape)

What is the Meaning of Zikr?

Recognise the Greatness of Your Creator

and from lecture series 1:

Muslim Women! Are they Oppressed?

Examinations of Sabr...Pass or Fail

The Organ that will Make you or Brake you

Appreciate Five things before Five

and

Hopes in Your Aspirations for Jannah

you will find, In Sha'a Allah, the Mufti VERY CONSISTENT and. imho, he portrays Islam is the most Beautiful of Lights!

the dvd set is VERY INSPIRATIONAL!

:w:
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Thinker
10-20-2008, 07:21 PM
Hi,

How do I find an hadith? If for example I want to read Bukhari, 5.93 what does 5.93 mean? When I type Bukhari, 5.93 into google it keeps coming up with book 3!!

Thanks in advance
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YusufNoor
10-20-2008, 11:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Hi,

How do I find an hadith? If for example I want to read Bukhari, 5.93 what does 5.93 mean? When I type Bukhari, 5.93 into google it keeps coming up with book 3!!

Thanks in advance
Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

they mean: Volume, Book, Number

you can also look here:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchhadith.html

be forewarned that an out of context Hadith translated in English can seem a bit askew...

[so if you find something that seems a little odd, you may have to go to those more knowledgeable than us]

:w:
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Thinker
10-21-2008, 09:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
they mean: Volume, Book, Number
Thanks but I only have two numbers; 5.93 and from what I can see most references just give two numbers e.g. Bukhari, 5.93. As I said, when I put Bukhari, 5.93 into google it comes up with volume 3 but there is no book 5; number 93 in volume 3!!
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Hamayun
10-21-2008, 10:07 AM
Hey Thinker :)

What is the verse? Where did you get those numbers?

Why not just post the actual text from the verse because I am sure someone will recognise it.

Hope that helps :)

Peace
Reply

YusufNoor
10-21-2008, 12:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Thanks but I only have two numbers; 5.93 and from what I can see most references just give two numbers e.g. Bukhari, 5.93. As I said, when I put Bukhari, 5.93 into google it comes up with volume 3 but there is no book 5; number 93 in volume 3!!
Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,


judging from this, in the link i put:


Volume 1, Book 1, Number 1:

Narrated 'Umar bin Al-Khattab:

I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "The reward of deeds depends upon the intentions and every person will get the reward according to what he has intended. So whoever emigrated for worldly benefits or for a woman to marry, his emigration was for what he emigrated for."

Volume 1, Book 1, Number 2:

Narrated 'Aisha:

(the mother of the faithful believers) Al-Harith bin Hisham asked Allah's Apostle "O Allah's Apostle! How is the Divine Inspiration revealed to you?" Allah's Apostle replied, "Sometimes it is (revealed) like the ringing of a bell, this form of Inspiration is the hardest of all and then this state passes ' off after I have grasped what is inspired. Sometimes the Angel comes in the form of a man and talks to me and I grasp whatever he says." 'Aisha added: Verily I saw the Prophet being inspired Divinely on a very cold day and noticed the Sweat dropping from his forehead (as the Inspiration was over).

Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3:

Narrated 'Aisha:

(the mother of the faithful believers) The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of good dreams which came true like bright day light, and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him. He used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship (Allah alone) continuously for many days before his desire to see his family. He used to take with him the journey food for the stay and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read.

The Prophet added, "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.' Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, 'I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?' Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists) has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous." (96.1, 96.2, 96.3) Then Allah's Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely. Then he went to Khadija bint Khuwailid and said, "Cover me! Cover me!" They covered him till his fear was over and after that he told her everything that had happened and said, "I fear that something may happen to me." Khadija replied, "Never! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you. You keep good relations with your Kith and kin, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guests generously and assist the deserving calamity-afflicted ones."

Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the PreIslamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to Waraqa, "Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!" Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" Allah's Apostle described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, "This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Apostle asked, "Will they drive me out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, "Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while.

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah Al-Ansari while talking about the period of pause in revelation reporting the speech of the Prophet "While I was walking, all of a sudden I heard a voice from the sky. I looked up and saw the same angel who had visited me at the cave of Hira' sitting on a chair between the sky and the earth. I got afraid of him and came back home and said, 'Wrap me (in blankets).' And then Allah revealed the following Holy Verses (of Quran):

'O you (i.e. Muhammad)! wrapped up in garments!' Arise and warn (the people against Allah's Punishment),... up to 'and desert the idols.' (74.1-5) After this the revelation started coming strongly, frequently and regularly."
i googled this:

http://www.google.com/search?q=Bukha...A_enUS273US274

and got this:

Results 1 - 10 of about 40,300 for Bukhari Volume 1, Book 1, Number 1:. (0.16 seconds)
Search Results

1.
Compendium of Muslim Texts
Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 1: ... Volume 1, Book 1, Number 4:. Narrated Said bin Jubair:. Ibn 'Abbas in the explanation of the Statement of Allah. ...
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...i/001.sbt.html - 22k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
2.
Compendium of Muslim Texts
Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 2: ... Volume 1, Book 2, Number 18:. Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:. Allah's Apostle said, "A time will come that the best ...
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...i/002.sbt.html - 36k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
More results from www.usc.edu »
3.
Bukhari - Volume 1, Book 2, Number 15 - GupShup Forums
1 post - 1 author - Last post: Aug 29, 2004
In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful Narrated Anas (may Allah be pleased with him): The Prophet (sallalahu 'alayhi ...
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-...mber-15-a.html - 49k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
4.
Sahih Bukhari , Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301: [Archive ...
[Archive] Sahih Bukhari , Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301: General Islam.
http://www.***************/forum/arc...hp?t-8684.html - 12k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
5.
Translation of Sahih Bukhari: Book (4) Ablutions (Wudu)
The Sahih Bukhari Translation. ... Volume 1, Book 4, Number 141:. Narrated Usama bin Zaid:. Allah's Apostle proceeded from 'Arafat till when he reached the ...
www.truthnet.org/Islam/Hadith/Bukhari/4/ - 94k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
6.
Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 1: Revelation
Revelation Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 1. 1: Narrated 'Umar bin Al-Khattab: I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "The reward of deeds depends upon the intentions and ...
i-cias.com/e.o/texts/bukhari/001.htm - 23k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
7.
Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 5: Bathing
Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 5. 248: Narrated 'Aisha: .... used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and night and they were eleven in number. ...
lexicorient.com/e.o/texts/bukhari/005.htm - 23k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
8.
YouTube - Hadith from Shahi Bukhari- Vol 1, Book 1. Revelation. Hadith
Vol 1, Book 1. Revelation. Hadith 002.Narrated By 'Aisha : (The mother of the faithful believers) Al-Harith bin Hisham asked Allah's Apostle "O Allah's ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xuq0C...eature=related - 60k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
9.
Introduction to Translation of Sahih Bukhari
The format of the file names (one per book) is:. DDD_sbt.html. The three digits are the book number, and sbt stands for Sahih Bukhari Translation. ...
www.iiu.edu.my/deed/hadith/bukhari/sbtintro.html - 5k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
10.
Mokhtaser Sahih al-Bukhari vol. 1
Aug 23, 2008 ... sahih al bukhari book 1 volume 1, Google, Page 1 ... sahih bukhari sharif hadith book in english, Google, Page 1 ...
http://www.scribd.com/doc/4977347/Mo...lBukhari-vol-1 - 97k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
^o)

perhaps a try again?

:w:
Reply

Thinker
10-21-2008, 02:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
Hey Thinker :)

What is the verse? Where did you get those numbers?

Peace
I don't have the verse, I was looking for Bukhari's account of Muhammad's conquest of Mecca. Somewhere along the line my search came up with 5.93 but then I couldn't find 5.93!!

Thanks
Reply

doorster
10-21-2008, 03:27 PM
.....Muhammad's conquest of Mecca. Somewhere along the line my search came up with 5.93....
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en...at+the+Ka%92ba
Reply

Thinker
10-21-2008, 03:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster

Hi,

Thanks but done that already and you'll see that it gives as a reference Bukhari 5.93, in fact I think that's where I found that reference but can't seem to track down the actual text of 5.93 :-\
Reply

doorster
10-21-2008, 03:46 PM
there is hadith software program I posted somewhere on this forum
Reply

Thinker
11-02-2008, 11:26 AM
There are certain verses in the Qur’an and hadith that keep coming into question. When I first read the Qur’an and started researching Islamic teachings I discovered these verses. I joined this forum and asked for an explanation, I could almost hear the groans from the replies telling me that the question had already been discussed before and I should go away and read previous threads. I have read the eloquent explanations about why, for example, apostasy doesn’t really mean apostasy etc., etc. The problem (for Muslims who care what non Muslims think about them) is that these verses keep coming up; much as they might like, they just won’t go away. They don’t go away because a large section of the Muslim world don’t accept those eloquent explanations, they take the words literally. And, that situation is compounded when some of the (better educated and more enlightened) Muslim members of this forum choose to take certain verses literally (for example the shaking hands issue).

I have often said I am here to understand and by that I largely mean to understand how Muslims reconcile certain things. I don’t understand how you can reconcile in your head that you should not take the words of this sura literally but you should not take the words of that sura literally. I would like to know what you would reply to those men in Somalia who said to you “but you choose to take Sura 1234 literally why should I not take Sura 1235 literally”?
Reply

Thinker
11-03-2008, 08:45 PM
How does the Qur’an / hadith define non believer / unbeliever / kafir?

Is it someone who does not believe that the Qur’an is the word of God and Muhammad was his messenger.

Or

Is it an atheists i.e. simply an unbeliever is anyone who doesn’t believe in (any) God.
Reply

YusufNoor
11-04-2008, 04:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
How does the Qur’an / hadith define non believer / unbeliever / kafir?

Is it someone who does not believe that the Qur’an is the word of God and Muhammad was his messenger.

Or

Is it an atheists i.e. simply an unbeliever is anyone who doesn’t believe in (any) God.
:sl:

i KNOW you asked about Hadith, but...

Muhammad Asad said [OK wrote] that the word kufar means farmer, and thus used the term as one who rejects Islam [they threw dirt over it]

there's actually 6 [iirc] different forms of kufar. i'm hoping someone helps you here, In Sha'a Allah! (iirc, it DOES or CAN mean one who simply isn't a Muslim, but is better used for one who rejects Islam.)

Mufti Menk says that kufr also means one who is ungrateful, thus [one whom calls himself] a Muslim yet is wantonly disobeying Allah[swt] OR His Messenger [pbuh] could also be considered kufr. NOT that we could call them that, but that in fact is what they are being...

:w:
Reply

Thinker
11-04-2008, 09:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
:sl:

Muhammad Asad said [OK wrote] that the word kufar means farmer, and thus used the term as one who rejects Islam [they threw dirt over it]

Hi,

Thanks for your answer.

Although I included the word kafir above, my copy of the Qur’an doesn’t use the word kafir it uses the term ‘non believer;’ I presumed that unbeliever, non believer and kafir were all the same thing?

I asked the question because the two verses below appear to be contradictory depending upon the definition on non believer?

Sura 2:62. Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,--any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Sura 13:35 The parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised!- beneath it flow rivers: perpetual is the enjoyment thereof and the shade therein: such is the end of the Righteous; and the end of unbelievers in the Fire.
Reply

doorster
11-04-2008, 01:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I asked the question because the two verses below appear to be contradictory depending upon the definition on non believer?
I tried to explain concisely in private yesterday [to avoid confronting harassment from disruptive types]
the message I sent yesterday was:

  • "literally kafir is someone like iblis/lucifer, the 'one who covers' [the truth of God] the other are who don't yet believe"

which apparently you did not understand.

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
....

Sura 13:35 The parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised!- beneath it flow rivers: perpetual is the enjoyment thereof and the shade therein: such is the end of the Righteous; and the end of unbelievers in the Fire.
the actual word used here is: الْكَافِرِينَ al kafirin (the kafirs)
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Although I included the word kafir above, my copy of the Qur’an doesn’t
Do you have the Original? or are you calling one of a gazillion [mis]translations as your copy?
Reply

جوري
11-04-2008, 03:50 PM
:sl:
I was asked to participate in this thread, but to be honest I am not following what the questions are?

So I'll start with a definition of terms and go on to the verses that thinker quoted about Jews/Christians/Sabeans etc..

A kaffir, kuffar, kafereen, kaferoon,, kafar are all derivatives of the same word kuffr different conjugation -- to denote (disbelief) by itself.. now depending on context and following text could be anything from an apostate to an atheist.. although there are specific words for atheists in Arabic more to par with modern times mainly ('ilmani, or Molihid)

but I digress..

twice in the Quran are mentioned verses about Jews/Christians and Sabeans being believers to not grief over them and they will not be let down-- those are the early ones (and Allah knows best) those who believed in the message before distortion.. for instance ahel al-kahf (chapter 18) in the Quran..

I wonder if this answered the Q's?

Jazakoum Allah khyran

:w:
Reply

Thinker
11-04-2008, 07:24 PM
Sorry, clearly I haven’t explained myself well or perhaps me including the (emotive) word kafir has confused the question or maybe I’m seeing things that aren’t there?

2:62 (below) is suggesting that Christians etc., can get into heaven (shall have their reward with their Lord).

Sura 2:62. Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,--any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

13:15 (below) is suggesting that all unbelievers end up in hell.

Sura 13:35 The parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised!- beneath it flow rivers: perpetual is the enjoyment thereof and the shade therein: such is the end of the Righteous; and the end of unbelievers is the Fire.

Hence my question – what is an unbeliever? If an unbeliever is someone who does not believe that the Qur’an is the word of God etc., then Sura 2:62 contradicts Sura 13:15. If, however unbeliever is defined as someone who doesn’t believe in God (any God) then the two verses do not contradict.
Reply

جوري
11-04-2008, 07:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Sorry, clearly I haven’t explained myself well or perhaps me including the (emotive) word kafir has confused the question or maybe I’m seeing things that aren’t there?
I skimmed and came in, in the middle, hence I am a bit confused..
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker

2:62 (below) is suggesting that Christians etc., can get into heaven (shall have their reward with their Lord).

Sura 2:62. Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,--any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
This verse is indeed mentioned on two separate occasions in the Quran

I managed to find you this from Islam Q and A

Name of Questioner
Conner - United States

Title
Muslims & Jews: Different Creeds?

Date
08/May/2008

Question
There is a lot of controversy between the Islamic society and the Judaic society. Why? Is there some kind of doctrinal battle? Everyone keeps citing the verse 2:96, but it is out of context. What is the context surrounding the statement made there, and didn't Muhammad treat the Jews like brothers? Muhammad believed that we were all children of God, and that this was more important than nationality or tribal heredity. So why is it that so many Muslims have such a problem with the Israelites, and why do so many Jews seem to hate the Muslims? Will there be peace between Muslims, Jews, and Christians? Will Jews go to hell like pagans and other unbelievers?

Topic
Islamic Creed, Interfaith Issues

Name of Counselor
Shahul Hameed



Answer




Salam, Conner.

Thank you very much for your question.

From the point of view of Islam, Jews deserve special consideration and affection as members of Ahl Al-Kitab, that is, people who received scriptures from God. Both religions emphasize faith in the One and Only Creator and Sustainer of the universe. And both religions teach the need for establishing the Law of God on earth, so that there will be peace and harmony flourishing everywhere.

As we have a Shariah (Law) to live by, the Jews too have the Law, comparable to ours. The Prophet Moses (peace be upon him) is our prophet too. And all the other prophets mentioned in the Jewish scripture are our prophets too.

Particularly we consider Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) as our Patriarch too. The Quran calls him an "ummah" or a nation by himself. To Muslims, he is an eternal model, who received a special blessing of God.

And you may know there is no Quranic story that is mentioned so many times, with so much of emphasis as Moses' story. The places the Jews hold holy are holy for Muslims too.

To Muslims, the first and the foremost article of faith is the belief in the One and Only God, and this belief is called, tawheed (monotheism) which emphasizes not only the Oneness of God, but also the oneness of the universe and the oneness of humanity, or the brotherhood of man.

The Oneness of God is basic to Judaism too. But the Jews also hold the view that they are the "chosen people" of God, and so they are superior to all other human beings. From this angle, they do not approve of the brotherhood of man.

The key issue of Palestine is closely related to this idea of the Chosen-ness of the Children of Israel. In fact the Torah speaks of God's gift of Palestine to the Children of Abraham.

But the Jews believe that since they are the "chosen people" of God, the other children of Abraham have no right to the land. Particularly, they argue that the children of the firstborn of Abraham have no right to this land, since their mother happened to be a slave.

That is to say, Judaism as it is practiced now insists on the birth of a person to determine his identity as a Jew, as is evident from Jewish writings which explain who a Jew is:

It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do. A person born to non-Jewish parents who believes everything that Jews believe and observes every law and custom of Judaism is still a non-Jew, even in the eyes of the most liberal reformists of Judaism. And a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew, even in the eyes of the ultra-Orthodox. In this sense, Judaism is more like a nationality than like other religions, and being Jewish is like a citizenship. (Who Is A Jew?, last accessed April 16, 2008)

The Jewishness of a person, according to this view, is determined by birth and not by belief and practice. For this reason, a Jew is claimed to be a very special person in the world; and this so-called special nationality of the Jews based on birth amounts to racism.

In fact, Islam acknowledges the idea of the chosen-ness of the Children of Israel, but in a different sense. Allah chose the Children of Israel to be the carriers of His Message, by appointing a large number of His prophets from among them.

But as a people, the Children of Israel were not grateful to God for His special blessings — blessings like their miraculous rescue from the tyranny of the Pharaoh.

They continued committing transgressions and devising ingenious ways of circumventing God's commands. This was mainly because of their belief that as the Chosen People they had an exclusive right to get God's reward despite their excesses.

They had been taking undue advantage of the special blessings they had received. Indeed they were squandering the grace of God. They misinterpreted the grace of God as their own exclusive right denied to other humans. But God is Just and Merciful; He does not prefer one race of people over others based on birth. He looks into the beliefs and actions of people. And He does not leave in the lurch any of His sincere devotees, irrespective of the tribal or social status they possess in this world.

In fact, it is the exclusive claim of the Jews that is referred to in verse 2:96 of the Quran. To understand its full meaning, we should read the previous verses too:


*{Say (to the Children of Israel): "If an afterlife with God is to be for you alone, to the exclusion of all other people, then you should long for death-if what you say is true.

But never will they long for it, because [they are aware] of what their hands have sent ahead in this world: and God has full knowledge of evildoers.

And you wilt most certainly find that they cling to life more eagerly than any other people, even more than those who are bent on ascribing divinity to other beings beside God: every one of them would love to live a thousand years, although the grant of long life could not save him from suffering [in the Hereafter]: for God sees all that they do.}* (Al-Baqarah 2:94-96)

Because of the continued defiance of God's commandments by the Children of Israel, God dispersed them throughout the earth. But the Quran teaches that Allah is Merciful and He turns in kindness to those of His servants who repent and return to the good path:

*{Those who believe (in the Quran), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.}* (Al-Baqarah 2:62)

This verse underscores the benevolence and compassion of the All-Merciful God. Allah's mercy is open to all His servants, and all forms of racism and tribalism are rejected:

*{O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other (not that you may despise each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).}* (Al-Hujurat 49:13)

The foregoing means the following:

1. Muslims hold the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) as their own brothers; and they honor Moses and Jesus as their own prophets. This is in accordance with the teachings of the Quran and the example of the Prophet.

2. The Quranic passages (as well as those in the Hadith) that criticize the People of the Book do not apply to all Jews and Christians. They apply only to the transgressors among them. The same indictment applies to the Muslims as well, when they commit excesses; this is evident to any reader of the Quran.

3. The Quranic verses quoted above (2:62 and 49:13) clearly show that God's judgment of humans will be perfectly just, irrespective of factors like race, nationality and such other externalities. And that is why we can say that Islam is universal and for all time.

4. Also I would like to underscore a major aspect of Muslims as a community. Generally, they (i.e. the pious ones compared to the pious ones in other religions) are careful to spend a great deal of their waking time in prayers, fasts and other forms of worship.

They attach more value to the other world, and comparatively much less importance to the matters of this world than others. One of the positive things about Muslims is their fear of Divine punishment in the other world. This, along with the hope of rewards from Allah, keeps them safe from many of the evil temptations of this world.

Will There Be Peace?

Unfortunately, in spite of it all, instead of developing mutual love and respect between Muslims and Jews as a result of all these common grounds, we find mutual animosity and hatred. The reasons must be obvious to any one who studies the formation of Israel and the systematic expulsion of the Palestinians from the land of their birth.

Even a cursory comparison between the Israelis and the Palestinians — how they live, what rights they enjoy, and so on, should enable an objective observer to find out the causes of the conflict.

You have asked, "Will there be peace between Muslims, Jews, and Christians?"

I am an optimist and therefore my answer is: Yes, there will be peace between Muslims, Jews, and Christians, though I am not sure how it becomes a reality.

As for your question, "Will Jews go to hell like pagans and other unbelievers?", my answer is: It depends on the Jews themselves, just as it depends on the Muslims too, whether they go to Hell or to Heaven in the end.

Here is a Quranic verse that means more or less the same as 2:62:

"Those who believe (in the Quran), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians, any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.." (Al-Ma'idah 5:69)

I hope this answers your question. Please keep in touch.

Salam.

Useful Links
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...AskAboutIslamE

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
13:15 (below) is suggesting that all unbelievers end up in hell.

Sura 13:35 The parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised!- beneath it flow rivers: perpetual is the enjoyment thereof and the shade therein: such is the end of the Righteous; and the end of unbelievers is the Fire.

Hence my question – what is an unbeliever? If an unbeliever is someone who does not believe that the Qur’an is the word of God etc., then Sura 2:62 contradicts Sura 13:15. If, however unbeliever is defined as someone who doesn’t believe in God (any God) then the two verses do not contradict.
an unbeliever is one who rejects Islamic Monotheism.. there really is no contradiction since I have already explained that such verses were revealed of early Jews, early Christians and early Sabeans (those who followed John the Baptist) until the birth of Christ

however here is a scholarly reply from Br. Ansar Al'Adl from the mother website Load Islam LI

Salvation for Non-Muslims

By : Ansar Al-'Adl



The allegation is as follows:

Will Non-Muslims enter paradise and not Hell? Sura 2:62 and 5:69 say "Yes", Sura 3:85 says "No".

Verses in Question:

2:62 Verily! Those who believed and the Jews and Christians, and Sabians - whoever believed in Allâh and the Last Day and performed righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve .

5:69 Surely, those who believed and the Jews and Sabians and Christians - whosoever believed in Allâh and the Last Day, and worked righteousness, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. 5:72 Indeed, they have disbelieved who say, "Behold, God is the Christ, son of Mary" - seeing that the Christ [himself] said, "O children of Israel! Worship God [alone], who is my Sustainer as well as your Sustainer."" Behold, whoever ascribes divinity to any being beside God, unto him will God deny paradise, and his abode shall be the fire: and such evildoers will have none to aid them.

3:85 And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.

The confusion arises from a misunderstanding of verses 2:62 and 5:69, hence the focus of this article will be to present the correct understanding of these verses.

Reference to Righteous Followers from Previous Nations

The common interpretation of these verses is that they refer to righteous followers of Prophets before the coming of Prophet Muhammad pbuh. This can be understood through the following points.
1. The Historical Context
The historical background will allow us to better understand the groups described in these verses. Imaam Ibn Kathir Ad-Damishqi (d. 1372CE) describes the historical context in his renowned Tafsir Al-Qur'an Al-Azim as follows:
[The saying of the Exalted, "verily! Those who believe and the Jews and the Christians, and the Sabians, whosoever believes in Allaah and the Last Day and does righteous deeds shall have their reward with their Lord": as-Suddi said,
‘the verse was revealed with regards to companions of Salmaan al-Faarisee about whom he informed the Prophet (SAW) that ‘they prayed, fasted, believed in you and bore witness that you had been sent as a Prophet.’ So when Salmaan had finished extolling them the Prophet (SAW) said, "O Salmaan they are from the People of the Fire." This weighed down heavily on Salmaan and then Allaah revealed this verse. So the Imaan of the Jews referred to those Jews who held fast to the Tawrah and the sunnah of Moses until Jesus was sent. When Jesus (AS) came then whosoever held fast to the Tawrah and the sunnah of Moses (and did not follow Jesus) was destroyed. The Imaan of the Christians referred to those who held fast to the Injeel and the laws of Jesus – these people were the believers who accepted him. This held true until Muhammad (SAW) came, so whosoever did not follow Muhammad (SAW) and did not leave what he had been following was destroyed.’
This does not negate what Alee bin Abee Talha reports from ibn Abbaas that after this verse was revealed Allaah revealed the verse, "whosoever desires a religion other than Islaam then it shall not be accepted from him and in the Hereafter he shall be of the losers." (3: 85) Here ibn Abbaas is informing that the only thing accepted from someone will be that which is in conformity to the Sharee`ah of Muhammad (SAW) after he had been sent. As for those who came before him, then whosoever followed the Messenger of his time then he was upon guidance and the victorious way. So the Jews referred to are the followers of Moses who used to judge by the Tawrah in their time.](Tafseer ibn Katheer’ 1/182)
Salman Al-Faarisee was a Persian Zoroastrian who left his home in search of God's true religion. He became a Christian in Syria and encountered many righteous Christian scholars who foretold of the coming of a Prophet in Arabia. Later, Salman came to Madinah and accepted Islam at the hands of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. Naturally, he enquired about the status of those devout followers of previous Prophets whom he had encountered in his journey. Verses 2:62 and verses 5:69 clarify and explain the status of such people. They are not speaking about Christians and Jews who lived after the comming of the prophet Muhammad pbuh but did not accept him as a messenger, for one must accept the message of the Prophet sent to them in order to be guided. Contemporary Muslim writer, Dr. Jamal Badawi summarizes this explanation concisely:
This verse must be understood in the light of other verses in the Qur'an dealing with the same topic. It is clear in the Qur'an that rejecting beliefs in any prophet is tantamount to rejecting belief in all of them. Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) to Muslims is the last, final and universal messenger to all humankind. As such rejecting belief in him and in the divine revelations or word of God given to him is tantamount to rejecting all of the prophets. Therefore, this verse may be referring to those who followed their prophet prior to the mission of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him). In fact, these people who followed the unadulterated message of their prophet are in effect "fellow Muslims", literally those who sought peace through submission to God. (SOURCE)
In light of this explanation, it becomes quite clear that verses 2:62 and 5:69 are not at all stating that Christians and Jews who reject the message of Prophet Muhammad pbuh enter paradise, as the critic claims. The verse is referring to the original followers of previous Prophets before the coming of Prophet Muhammad pbuh. In other words, those who faithfully followed the teachings of the prophet sent to them will be rewarded.

2. Every Prophet brought the same Message
These verses make it very clear that the original and true followers of each Prophet will be rewarded, as all the Prophets brought the same message of submission to the One Creator and following His commandments. As the Qur'an mentions:
42:13 The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah - the which We have sent by inspiration to thee - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than Allah, hard is the (way) to which thou callest them. Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him).

Likewise, the Prophet Muhammad pbuh said: "The Prophets are brothers; their mothers are different, but their religion is the same." (Bukhari, Muslim, Ahmad and Abu Dawood. Saheeh al-Jaami' 2/14). Thus, verses 2:62 and 5:69 clarify that people from the past who followed their Prophet are on the same footing as those who now follow Prophet Muhammad pbuh. But once a Prophet has been sent, the people must accept that Prophet. Shaykh Umar Sulayman Al-Ashqar, Professor at the Shari'ah College of the University of Jordan, writes on this subject:

When examining the call of the Messengers which is referred to in the Qur'an, we find that the religion to which all the Messengers called people is one and the same, namely Islam:
Truly, the religion with Allah is Islam... (Qur'an 3:19)
Islam in the language of the Qur'an, is not the name of a particular religion, rather it is the name of the common religion which was preached by all the Prophets. Prophet Nooh (Noah) pbuh said to his people:
...And I have been commanded to be of the Muslims [i.e. those who submit to Allah's will]. (Qur'an 10:72)
Islam is the religion which Allah enjoined upon the father of the Prophets, Prophet Ibraheem (Abraham) pbuh:
When his Lord said to him, 'Submit [i.e. be a Muslim]!' He said, 'I have submitted myself [ as a Muslim] to the Lord of the 'Alameen [mankind, jinn and all that exists].' (Qur'an 2:131)
Both Prophet Ibraheem and Ya'qoob [Jacob] advised their children, saying,
Then die not except in the Faith of Islam [as Muslims - Islamic monotheism]. (Qur'an 2:132)
The sons of Ya'qoob pbuh responded to their father:
...We shall worship your God, the God of your fathers, Ibraheem [Abraham], Ismaa'eel [Ishmael], Ishaaq [Isaac], One God, and to Him we submit [in Islam]. (Qur'an 2:133)
Prophet Moosa (Moses) pbuh said to his people:
...O' my people! If you have believed in Allah, then put your trust in Him if you are Muslims [those who submit to Allah's Will]. (Qur'an 10:84)
The Disciples said to Prophet 'Eesa (Jesus) pbuh:
...We believe in Allah, and bear witness that we are Muslims [i.e. we submit to Allah]. (Qur'an 3:52)
When a group of the People of the Book heard the Qur'an,
..They say: 'We believe in it. Veruly, it is the truth from our Lord. Indeed even before it we have been from those who submit themselves to Allah in Islam as Muslims.' (Qur'an 28:53)
Islam was the common word which was spoken by all the Prophets and their followers from the most ancient of times until the time of Prophet Muhammad pbuh.

How to determine Islam

Islam means obedience, surrender and submission to Allah, by doing that which He commands and abstaining from that which He forbids. Hence, Islam at the time of Prophet Nooh (Noah) meant following that which Nooh brought, Islam at the time of Prophet Moosa (Moses) meant following the Law of Moosa. Islam at the time of Prophet 'Eesa (Jesus) meant following the Injeel. And Islam at the time of Prophet Muhammad pbuh meant following the Noble Messenger pbuh. (Al-Ashqar, The Messengers and the Messages: In the Light of the Qur'an and Sunnah (Islamic Creed Series Volume 4), International Islamic Publishing House 2003, pp. 310-312, emphasis added)
This quote from Shaykh Al-Ashqar explains that since the religion of every Prophet was Islam, then anyone who followed the message of the Prophet sent to them will be rewarded. In other words, the Jews at the time of Prophet Moses who followed his message will be rewarded. The Christians at the time of Prophet Jesus who followed his message will be rewarded. Now in the time of Prophet Muhammad pbuh, one must follow his message in order to attain that reward, the message being the same as that which was brought before. Shaykh Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips, a Professor of Islamic studies and author of many Islamic books, repeats the same idea when he writes:
UNIVERSALITY OF GOD’S RELIGION
Since the consequences of following a false religion are so grave, the true religion of God must have been universally understandable and universally attainable in the past and it must continue eternally to be understandable and attainable throughout the entire world. In other words, the true religion of God cannot be confined to any one people, place, or period of time. Nor is it logical that such a religion should impose conditions that have nothing to do with the relationship of man with God, such as baptism, or belief in man as a savior, or an intermediary. Within the central principle of Islam and its definition (the surrender of one’s will to God) lie the roots of Islam’s universality. Whenever man comes to the realization that God is one and distinct from His creation, and submits himself to God, he becomes a Muslim in body and spirit and is eligible for paradise.
Consequently, anyone at any time in the most remote regions of the world can become Muslim, a follower of God’s religion, Islam, by merely rejecting the worship of creation and turning to God alone. It should be noted, however, that in order to actually submit to God’s will, one must continually choose between right and wrong. Indeed, man is endowed by God with the power not only to distinguish right from wrong but also to choose between them. These God-given powers carry with them an important responsibility, namely, that man is answerable to God for the choices he makes. It follows, then, that man should try his utmost to do good and avoid evil. These concepts are expressed in the final revelation as follows:
"Verily, those who believe (in the Qur’an), and those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians, and the Sabians (angel-and-star-worshippers) -- any of these who believe in Allah and the Last Day and work righteousness shall have their reward with their Lord. They will not be overcome by fear or grief."
[Qur’an 2:62]
If, for whatever reason, they fail to accept the final message after it has been clearly explained to them, they will be in grave danger. The last Prophet said:
"Whoever among the Christians and Jews hears of me but does not affirm his belief in what I brought and dies in this state will be among the inhabitants of hell."
(Sahih Muslim [English Translation], Vol.1 P.91 No, 284) (SOURCE, emphasis added)
In other words, verse 2:69 means that so long as an individual believed and submitted themselves to God by following the messenger of their time, they will receive their reward. Imaam Ibn Jarir At-Tabari (d. 923CE) also mentions that the Jews, Christians and Sabians being referred to in verses 2:62 and 5:69 are those who were true in following the original message of their Prophets; these were people who lived before the time of Prophet Muhammad pbuh. He writes:
And it was even said that the people who are meant here are those who believed from the people of the book in accordance to the belief of Issa (Jesus), and what he was sent with, until they caught up with Mohammed, salah allahu 'alayhi wa salam, and so they believed in him and said he was truthful. So, it was said to those who believed in Issa (Jesus) and what he was sent with after having witnessed Mohammed, salah allahu 'alayi wa salam: believe in Mohammed and what he was sent with. The meaning of 'Iman Al Mumin' (the faith of a believer) is his steadfast with his faith and his refusal to change it. But with the 'iman' (faith) of the Jews, Christians, and Sabians, it is their belief in Mohammed, salah allahu 'alayhi wa salam, and what he was sent with, and so whoever from them believes in Mohammed, and the Last day, does good deeds, and doesn't change or replace his religion until he dies upon that, he then gets the reward of his deed with his Lord as Allah has described." (Tabari, Jami‘ al-bayan fi ta’wil al-Qur’an, ARABIC SOURCE, emphasis added)
Imaam At-Tabari makes it clear that the verses describe followers of previous Prophets who followed that message before the coming of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. Once he came, then they had to accept his message. Imaam At-Tabari also points out that the verse is not referring to everyone who calls themselves a Jew or Christian, but specifically to the true followers of Moses and Jesus amongst them:
How about if someone said to us: What about the complete meaning of the verse, "and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians" The reply would be in Allah's verse which completes [the earlier] meaning "whoever believed in Allah and the Last day" because it means: whomever from amongst them [the Jews, Christians, and Sabians] truly believed in Allah and the Last day, although Allah did not mention [the word] 'minhum' (from amongst them)... (Tabari, Jami‘ al-bayan fi ta’wil al-Qur’an, ARABIC SOURCE, emphasis added)
It becomes evident that the most prevalent understanding of these verses is that they referred to the previous nations, the true followers of Prophet Moses pbuh and Prophet Jesus pbuh. This answers the question concerning the fate of those people who came before Prophet Muhammad pbuh. Anyone who accepted the message brought by the Prophet of their time will be rewarded. However, there is absolutely no doubt that after someone receives the message of Prophet Muhammad pbuh, it is incumbent upon them to follow that path, as it is the final step in the chain of revelation. A true follower of any of the previous Prophets would be able to recognize that the message of Islam is a continuation of that which was taught by the previous Prophets. The Qur'an describes these people as follows:
28:51-55. And indeed now We have conveyed the Word (Qur'an), in order that they may receive admonition. Those to whom We gave the previous Scriptures, - they believe in it (the Qur'ân). And when it is recited to them, they say: "We have believed in it; Verily, it is the truth from our Lord. Indeed even before it we have been from those who submit themselves to Allah in Islam as Muslims. They will be given their reward twice over, because they are patient, and repel evil with good, and spend (in charity) out of what We have provided them. And when they hear vain talk, they withdraw from it and say: "To us our deeds, and to you your deeds. Peace be to you. We seek not the ignorant."
Notice that the followers of the previous prophets/scriptures are recorded to have said, in the above passage, that they considered themselves to have been practicing the same message from before. They considered themselves already 'Muslims'. Consequently, when the Qur'anic verses were presented to them they accepted them without hesitation as they recognized that the message had the same origin and in fact had been prophesized by the Prophets whom they followed. For further information concerning the original true message of the three Abrahamic faiths, one may refer to The First and Final Commandment by Dr. Laurence Brown MD, a truly fascinating work.

3. The Textual Context
Examining the context in which these verses appear will enable us to better appreciate the intended meaning of the verses. Verse 5:69 appears in the following context:
5:65-74. If only the People of the Book had believed and been righteous, We should indeed have blotted out their iniquities and admitted them to gardens of bliss. If only they had stood fast by the Tawraat, the Injeel, and what has [now] been sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course: but many of them follow a course that is evil. O Messenger, proclaim the (message) which has been revealed to you from your Lord. And if you do not, then you have not conveyed His Message. And Allah will protect you from mankind. For Allah guides not those who reject Faith. Say: "O People of the Book! You have no ground to stand upon unless you establish the Tawraat, the Injeel, and that which has now been sent down to you from your Lord." Verily, that which has been sent down to you (Muhammad) from your Lord increases in many of them their obstinate rebellion and disbelief. So be not sorrowful over the people who disbelieve. Surely, those who believed and the Jews and Sabians and Christians - whosoever believed in Allâh and the Last Day, and worked righteousness, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. We took the covenant of the Children of Israel and sent them apostles, every time, there came to them an apostle with what they themselves desired not - some (of these) they called impostors, and some they (go so far as to) slay. They thought there would be no trial (or punishment); so they became blind and deaf; yet Allah (in mercy) turned to them; yet again many of them became blind and deaf. But Allah sees well all that they do. They do blaspheme who say: "God is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. Why turn they not to Allah, and seek His forgiveness? For Allah is Oft- forgiving, Most Merciful.[
These verses begin by mentioning that the majority of the people of previous scriptures deviated from the truth while some still held fast to their scriptures. Then it mentions that Allah, in His infinite mercy, has sent to the people of the scripture another messenger to guide them back to the truth after they had deviated. They need only believe in Allah and the Last Day and accept the messages that were sent to them in order to attain salvation. Immediately after mentioning that anyone who has faith in Allah and does righteous deeds will be rewarded (verse 5:69), the Qur'an goes on to clarify that the Christians and Jews being referred to here are not those who killed the prophets or blasphemed by ascribing divinity to Prophet Jesus. Rather, verse 5:69 refers to those who follow the true message brought to them by their messengers. It clarifies that the Jews and Christians have now gone astray and conseuqently they do not qualify for the reward given to those who have truly believed and performed righteous deeds. This reward is for those who follow the messages of the Prophets, to worship one God alone and to keep the commandments. If one rejects the prophethood of Muhammad pbuh, they have not followed the message of God. But if one accepts the prophethood of Muhammad pbuh, then they are amongst those referred to in the verse who will be rewarded, and they are considered Muslims.
Similarly, verse 2:62 comes after the Qur'an describes the deviation of the people of Prophet Moses while some were true in following his message. So, the verse is understood to mean that anyone from the people of Moses, who truly accepted him and his message, will receive the reward promised to them. The same is true for Prophet Jesus and Prophet Muhammad pbuh. As Mufti Muhammad Shafi, the late Grand Mufti of Pakistan, writes concerning the context of verse 2:62:
The previous verse spoke of how the Israelites drew upon themselves the wrath of Allah through their habitual insolence and disobedience. Now, this account may lead listeners, or the Jews themselves, to suppose that, in view of such transgression, their Taubah (repentance), if they agree to offer it, would not be acceptable to Allah. In order to dispel such a misgiving, the present verse lays down a general principle: no matter how a man has been behaving ealier, so long as he submits himself fully to the commandments of Allah in his belief and in his deeds both, he is acceptable to Allah, and will get his reward. It is obvious enough that after the revelation of the Holy Qur'an, which is the last message of Allah, perfect obedience to Allah can only mean accepting Islam and following the Last Prophet Muhammad pbuh. (fn. Contrary to the flaccid fancies of some "modernizers" who are very happy with themselves over their "liberalism" and "tolerance", the present verse does not open the way of salvation for each and every "man of good will" irrespective of the creed he follows. If one reads the verse in its proper context and along with other relevant verses of the Holy Qur'an, one will easily see that the verse, in fact, promises salvation in the other world only to those who accept Islam. It is an invitation extended to the Jews, the Christians, the Sabeans and, as a matter of fact, to the followers of all possible religions, and even to non-believers - specific names only serve as examples.) The verse, in effect, assures everyone that once a man has accepted Islam, all his former transgressions, whether in the matter of beliefs or in that of deeds, will be forgiven, and he will become worthy of receiving the rewards of the other world. (Shafi, Ma'ariful Qur'an, Maktaba-e-Darul-Uloom, Karachi, 2003, vol. 1, pp. 227-228, emphasis added)
And Verse 3:85 appears in the following context:
3:84-85. Say (O Muhammad): "We believe in Allâh and in what has been sent down to us, and what was sent down to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and Al-Asbât [the twelve tribes of the Children of Israel] and what was given to Moses, Jesus and the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between one another among them and to Him (Allâh) we have submitted (in Islâm)." And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.
Thus, this verse mentions that since the way of life preached by all the Prophets was Islam, this is the only religion acceptable from the people. Any human being who truly strived to submit themselves to the will of their Lord and followed whichever message had come to them from their Lord would be rewarded.

4. Objections answered
One may object to the above interpretation by pointing out that many english translations of the verse render the word 'believed' (Amana) in the present tense as 'believe', whereas this interpretation suggest that verse refers to believers of previous times. In fact, the word 'amana' is actually in the past tense (see Lisan Al-'Arab p. 165), and it is used many times in the Qur'an in such a manner. For instance:
10:83 But none believed (amana) in Moses except some children of his people, because of the fear of Pharaoh and his chiefs, lest they should persecute them; and certainly Pharaoh was mighty on the earth and one who transgressed all bounds.
11:36 It was revealed to Noah: "None of thy people will believe except those who have believed (amana) already! So grieve no longer over their (evil) deeds.
40:30 Then said the man [from the family of Pharoah] who believed (amana): "O my people! Truly I do fear for you something like the Day (of disaster) of the Confederates (in sin)!
Evidently, the Qur'an does indeed use the word to refer to people of past times and as such, the interpretation given by the Muslim commentators is valid.

One may also object by pointing out that the verse mentions believers before mentioning Jews, Christians and Sabians. If these verses refer to previous nations, why are believers mentioned? Many scholars pointed out that 'those who believed' was the general term given at the beginning of the verse, which continues on to mention specific groups that believed like Jews, Christians and Sabians. It is as though the verse is stating, "Those who believed - whether they were from the Jews, Christians, Sabians, etc. - any of them who truly believed in Allah and the Last Day will have their reward...". Other scholars explained that these verses were an invitation to all these groups to come to the truth, or remain firm on the truth if they were already upon it. As Mufti Muhammad Shafi writes:
One might also ask why the verse mentions the Muslims, for if it is an invitation to Islam, there is no need to extend the invitation to those who have already accepted Islam. But if we keep in mind the richly concentrated style of the Holy Qur'an, and try to look beyond the literal sense of the words into the implications and suggestions contained in the verse, we would find that the inclusion of the Muslim factor has added a new dimension to the meaning. It is as if a king should, in a similar situation, say that his laws are impartially applicable to all his subjects, and that whosoever obeys them shall receive his reward for obedience irrespective of whether he has earlier been a friend or a foe. Obviously, the friend has always been loyal and obedient, and the warning and the promise have really been addressed to the foe. But the suggestion contained in such a formulation is that the favours of the king do not proceed from any personal attachment to the friends, but depend on the quality of obedience and loyalty, and hence the foes too will become worthy of his favours if they acquire the necessary quality. This is the raison d'etre of mentioning the Muslims along with the non-Muslims in this verse, which should never be taken to imply that salvation can be attained without accepting Islam. (Shafi, Ma'ariful Qur'an, Maktaba-e-Darul-Uloom, Karachi, 2003, vol. 1, pp. 228-229)
In other words, the invitation to have true faith in Allah is extended to all people, and it is understood that this entails accepting the messages and messengers sent by Allah. Other scholars understood 'those who believed' (Allatheena amanu) to refer to those who outwardly believed, i.e. the hypocrites. Imam Muhammad bin Ali Ash-Shawkani (d. 1834 CE), a renowned Islamic scholars from Yemen, comments on this view as follows:
It was said: what is meant by "Al-latheena Amanu" (those who believe) are the munafiqoon, because they've been mentioned with the Jews, Christians and Sabians, meaning, their outwardly belief (in Allah). However, what is more correct is: what is meant by (Al-latheena Amanu) are the ones who believed in Prophet Mohammed, salah allahu 'alayhi wa salaam, and became part of his followers, and it as if Allah wanted to show how the affair of the believers and the ones who came before them in creed all came down to one thing: Whoever believed in Allah from among them, the day of Judgement, and did good deeds deserved the reward which Allah refers to. And whoever passes it by then has passed by all good and all reward. (Shawkani, Fath Al-Qadeer: Mu'asasat Ar-rayan (Part 1), p. 122, emphasis added)
These explanations given by the scholars support the interpretation of the verses given earlier; they state that no matter what era one lived in or which nation they came from, so long as they submitted themselves to the will of Allah and followed the message of the Prophet sent to them, they would receive their reward and would be considered true Muslims.

Following Prophet Muhammad pbuh is implicitly understood from the verse

One can arrive at the same conclusion given above, by analyzing the verses from a different angle. There are a number of points which demonstrate that following the Prophet Muhammad pbuh is implicitly understood from these verses.
1. 'Righteous deeds' are determined according to the message of the current Prophet
Both verse 2:62 and 5:69 point out that anyone who has faith in Allah and the Last Day, and performs righteous deeds will have their reward. 'Righteous deeds' refer to those that are in-line with the code of conduct that God has revealed to His Messengers. Thus, at the time of Prophet Moses pbuh, righteous deeds were those that were in-line with the law and teachings of Moses. At the time of Prophet Jesus pbuh, it was that which was in-line with the teachings of Jesus. And now, after the coming of Prophet Muhammad pbuh, righteous deeds are those that are in-line with the code of law (Shari'ah) brought by Prophet Muhammad pbuh. The popular exegete on the Qur'an, Syed Qutb (d. 1966CE), who was well-known for his skill in the Arabic language, mentions the following in his tafseer of 5:69:
The Truth Versus People's Fancies
This first part of the present passage concludes with a clear statement of the faith which God accepts from people, regardless of what they were called before the message of the last Prophet. It was the faith which united people of all creeds and doctrines in ancient hsitory. "Those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Sabians, and the Christians - anyone who believes in God and the Last Day and does what is right shall have no fear, nor shall they grieve." (Verse 69)
The passage names four groups: "those who believe" refers to Muslims, and the Jews are the followers of the Prophet Moses. The term Sabians refers, most probably, to those who abandoned the worship of idols before the Prophet Muhammad's message, worshipping God alone, following no particular creed. There were a handful of Arabs among them. The Christians are those who followed the Prophet Jesus Christ (peace be upon him).
This verse states that whatever their creed was, those who believe in God and the Last Day and do what is right - and it is implicitly understood here and explicitly elsewhere in the Qur'an that they have done that in accordance with the final Prophet's message - will attain salvation: "shall have no fear, nor shall they grieve." (Verse 69) They need not worry about what they used to do or under what title they were classified. The most important title is the last one.
What we have been describing is implicity understood from this Qur'anic verse. It comes under that part of our faith which is essentially known to all people. It is a primary concept of this faith that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is the last of all prophets and a Messenger of God sent to all mankind. All people, regardless of their religion, creed, belief, race, and nationality, are called upon to believe in his message as he preached it in essence and detail. Anyone who does not believe in him as a Messenger and does not believe in the totality and the details of his message remains in error. God does not accept from him the religion he followed prior to the revelation of Islam. Nor is he included among those described by God as people who "shall have nothing to fear, nor shall they grieve." (Verse 69)
It is this primary concept of faith which a Muslim may not compromise on under the great pressure of the jahiliyyah or darkness in which humanity lives today. Indeed, a Muslim cannot overlook this concept when he establishes his relations with other people of different creeds and religions. He cannot try to reduce the pressure of ignorance by coming to terms with the followers of other creeds or doctrines, giving them the privilege of having "a faith" acceptable to God and constituting grounds for mutual support.
It is God alone who is the patron of believers: "Those who ally themselves with God and His Messenger and the believers (will find that) the party of God will be victorious." (Verse 56) This is certainly true even though appearances may give a different impression. Moreover, those who believe in God and the Last Day and do what is right, on the basis of the religion of Islam, which is the religion acceptable to God, shall have nothing to fear and shall not grieve. They need have no fear of the forces of evil and darkness and they need have no fear of their own goodly, believing souls. Grief will remain unknown to them. (Qutb, In The Shade of the Qur'an, The Islamic Foundation 2001, vol. IV pp. 196-197, emphasis added)
This lenghty quote clarifies that the deeds which are acceptable and deemed righteous by Allah are those that are in accordance with the message which He has sent. Therefore, we arrive at the same conclusion - that one must accept the message of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh when it reaches them. Likewise, the people at the time of Moses pbuh had to act in accordance with his message, as did the people at the time of Jesus. Acceptance of the Prophets is implicitly included and the verse and consequently, if one does not accept and act in accordance with the code of law brought by Prophet Muhammad pbuh, then they have not acted righteously.

2. The Definition of Imaan
The scholars who interpreted these passages as an invitation to accept Islam pointed out that the verses require that one have imaan in Allah. While this has been simply translated as 'belief' or 'faith', its meaning goes deeper than that. The Qur'an itself clarified this:
4:65 But no, by the Lord, they can have no real Faith (imaan), until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.
Likewise, Imaam Ash-Shawkaani writes in his commentary on verse 2:62:
What is meant here by Imaan is what the Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "Imaan is to believe in Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day, and to believe in divine destiny, both the good and the evil thereof", while no one is described as a believer except when he has entered the fold of Islam, therefore, whoever doesn't believe in Muhammad (peace be upon him) and doesn't believe in the Qur'an is not a believer, and whosoever of them believes in it, has become a Muslim/believer and he is no longer Christian, Jewish, or Sabian. (Shawkani, Fath Al-Qadeer: Mu'asasat Ar-rayan (Part 1), p. 122)
And Mufti Muhammad Shafi writes:
a closer look at this verse itself will show a distinct hint towards belief in prophethood because, in the terminology of the Qur'ân, only that 'Îman bil-lâh (belief in Allah) is valid, in which there is belief in everything told by Allah. The Qur'ân has made its terminology very clear in the following words:
So, if they (the Companions) believe in the like of what you (the Prophet saws) believe in, they have certainly found the right path - 2:137
It means that the kind of 'Îman the noble Sahâbah [companions] had is the only 'Îman which deserves to be called 'Îman bil-lâh. And it is obvious that 'Îman bir-rasûl [belief in the Messenger] was a great pillar of the edifice of their 'Îman. Therefore, the words: (whoever believes in Allah) are inclusive of the belief in the Messenger of Allah. (Shafi, Ma'ariful Qur'an, Maktaba-e-Darul-Uloom, Karachi, 2003, vol. 3, p. 224)
It is quite clear that if we take these verses of the Qur'an in context and understand them in light of other Qur'anic verses and Ahadith, as oppose to taking them in isolation, then there remains no confusion that the one true path in life is submitting to the will of the Creator and acting in accordance with His final message, which is Islam.
3. Abrogation

Aside from the above explanations given, some other scholars assert that this verse has been abrogated (in a very general sense of the word). While this may seem to be in conflict with the understanding presented above, in reality it is complimentary to the previous explanations. According to this explanation, when Islam was in its early stages and was not yet known to many people, these verses (2:62 & 5:69) were revealed to clarify that anyone who sought their Lord, using whatever guidance they found left by previous Prophets, would be rewarded. Later, when Islam spread and became known to the people, it was clarified that from that point onwards, people would have to accept the message of Islam when it reached them. Thus, it could be said that the previous verse was 'abrogated' in a general sense (more on abrogation is found here). The support for this view is found in various Tafsir, such as that of Imaam Abu Abdullah Al-Qurtubi (d. 1272 CE) who writes:

It is reported from Ibn Abbas that this ayat is abrogated by "If anyone desires anything other than Islam as a din [way of life], it will not be accepted from him." (3:85) Others said that it is not abrogated and that it is about those who believe in the Prophet, peace be upon him, and who are firm in their belief. (Al-Qurtubi, Tafsir Al-Qurtubi, Dar Al-Taqwa Ltd. 2003, vol. 1, p. 267)
This quote indicates that the interpretation attributed to Ibn Abbas and supported by some scholars, holds that verse 3:85 comes after verse 2:69 and abrogates it.
It should also be noted that Islam asserts that God will judge everyone according to their circumstances. Consequently, it is not for Muslims to say whether someone, either living or deceased, will enter hell unless with explicit proof from the Qur'an or Ahadith. The renowned scholar, Imaam Ibn Al-Qayyim Al-Jawziyyah (d. 1350CE), said concerning non-muslims who did not receive the clear message of Islam:
We cannot rule whether such people are believers or unbelievers, because disbelieving means to deny something, while in their case, they did not know about the message from the first instance. As they were neither believers nor unbelievers, they should have a different ruling on the Day of Judgment.

Even if we were to say that they are unbelievers, then we would still have to say that the precondition for unbelievers to be punished in the Hereafter has not been realized in their case. They have to be warned first. Allah will not punish people without a previous warning. This warning should be in the language that the person understands. (Tarîq al-Hijratayn and Ahkâm ahl al-Dhimmah)
Similarly, the IslamToday.com fatwa service writes:
Non-Muslims who never heard the message of Islam are known as ahl al-fatrah. God says: 'Nor would We punish until We had sent a messenger (to give warning).' [Sûrah al-Isrâ: 15]

Many scholars, including Ibn al-Qayyim, Ibn Kathîr and Ibn Bâz, have adopted the saying that the people who have never had an opportunity to come to know about Islam will be tested by God on the Day of Judgment. Those who pass the test and obey the commands will go to Paradise and those who are disobedient will go to Hell.

God knows best who has heard His message properly and rejected it and who has not done so. The most we can say that it is obligatory for all people to accept Islam and that anyone who knowingly rejects the truth of Islam is condemned in the Hereafter. However, it is not our place to state exactly what God is going to do with each and every individual on the Day of Judgment. God is the only one who knows the hearts of people and their circumstances, and He is the only one who will sit in judgment. We must trust in Him.
Hopefully, this article will clarify any confusion surrounding the Islamic concept of salvation and the meaning of these Qur'anic verses.

And Allah knows best.


http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...orious%20Quran


Hope that answers your Q's?

all the best
Reply

Hamayun
11-04-2008, 07:49 PM
There is no contradiction.

The believers are all the people who believe in the original message given by all the Prophets.
This does not include the people who went astray and associated partners with God for example some Christians and Jews.

One verse refers to the Christians and Jews who were Monothiests and the other refers to the ones that went astray. Its really simple :)
Reply

Thinker
11-04-2008, 08:46 PM
Thanks for that. Skye, I have read through that lengthy explanation and think I now understand it to be saying that the access to heaven for Christians etc., only applies to Christians who followed the teachings of prophets before Muhammad? Thanks again.
Reply

جوري
11-04-2008, 09:12 PM
in the beginning and the end... Judgement lies solely with Allah swt.. so no one here can tell you who is going to hell or heaven..unlike many sects in Christianity and Judaism that guarantee salvation through baptisms or birth right or whatever else.. in Islam we believe that we enter into heaven through God's mercy.. and that whomever does righteous deeds be it even an atom's worth as per sura 99 shall be rewarded for it and like wise for sins...

and Allah knows best

Thanks
Reply

MSalman
11-05-2008, 07:02 PM
lol, no offense Thinker but look where you started from and where you ended up. I won't jump to quick conclusions, so i'll leave at that.

just to answer your earlier questions:

1 - The Islamic sources are the Qur'aan and the Sahih Sunnah. The science of the Qur'aan and the ahadith is an advance topic.

2 - We, Sunni Muslims, take things from the Qur'aan, the Sahih Sunnah and understand them how they first three Muslims generations understood it as they were the best - said Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Laypeople, like myself, are obliged to ask the people of the knowledge; so, this is where the students of knowledge and scholars come into play. They explain us the Islamic sources and thereof give their opinions. However, they are not infallible and can have wrong opinions. This is the reason Imam Malik (May Allah be pleased with him) said that everyone can be refuted except him (pointed the figure toward the grave of Allah's Messenger - peace be upon him)

I hope this answers your questions
Reply

Muhammad
11-14-2008, 11:05 PM
Greetings Thinker,

I have noticed that many of your questions are based around the things you asked in this thread. So I decided to answer your questions to the best of my ability and hopefully, anyone else who can elaborate more or correct what I have said will do so.

From what I have learned, Muslims lead their lives based upon what is said in the Qur’an, the Hadith and the teachings of scholars (if there are any other source tell me).
The sources of Islam are the Qur’an and the Sunnah. The scholars are not a source themselves, but rather they must also refer back to the Qur’an and Sunnah. From these two sources the scholars derived other principles on which rulings may be based (see the link about sources of Islamic legislation below).

The Qur’an is as it is and is translated and interpreted by those who have been accepted as qualified to translate and interpret it.
The Qur’an was explained by the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and his life was exemplary of its teachings. Those who are engaged in the field of Qur’an exegesis are not doing so based upon their own intellect, but are rather implementing a system of principles laid down in this field, referring back to the teachings of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaag be upon him). See here for more information:

http://aa.trinimuslims.com/showthread.php?t=2110

The Hadith or is it Hadiths was/were written by the companions after Mohammed’s death and they are their memories of
No, this is a myth. Please see the following post, which also elaborates on what the hadeeth are:

http://www.islamicboard.com/212874-post5.html


One of the reasons I posed these questions is because, for me looking in from the outside, there seems to be little difference given, in weight and value, from one text to another. For example ‘scholars’ are men and as such are fallible. And, for the many scholars that say “that means x” there are many others that say “that means y.” Yet when someone asks a question people answer it with a quote from a scholar and it appears to have the same weight as if it were a clear verse from the Qur’an.
There is a clear difference in weight between the sources. The reference point in all cases must be the texts of the Qur’aan and Sunnah. For further information regarding the sources of Islam, please see:

Sources of Islamic legislation

The other misgiving I have with an edict issued by a scholar is that after 1700 years of scholars giving their scholarly advice on this or that, every question must have been asked and answered.
Not necessarily – many things exist now which did not before, hence people need to ask about the Islamic ruling regarding them. As brother Al Habeshi explained, other things also need to be taken into account, such as the fact that the lay people may not know what answers the scholars of the past gave, hence you will find fatwas of modern scholars often quoting the words of earlier scholars. Scholars are the inheritors of the Prophets, preserving the knowledge of this noble religion with the help of Allaah, and at all times there is someone who is showing the correct way, based on evidence, who recognizes the truth concerning a certain issue and he knows how to reach the correct conclusion.

The other issue I have with scholars is (again a human frailty) if someone asks a scholar “Is it OK for me to do this?” the scholar is under greater pressure to say NO because he’s less likely to be criticised for being pious than he is for being too lenient or soft. I wonder whether the general drift towards a more radical interpretation of Islamic text is because it’s easier (brings less criticism) for scholars to err on the side of a more radical interpretation.
Among the qualities of a scholar is that he is a God-fearing person and does not fear the criticism of the people. He always speaks and stands up for the truth. There is no need to conjecture about the interpretation of Islamic evidences as we have already seen how it is to be based upon authentic evidences. As brother Al Habeshi mentioned, there are those people who are not qualified to issue rulings, yet do so and misguide themselves and others. It is people like these who arrive at extreme interpretations, not those who are true scholars.

Maybe Mohammed did say what he is reported as saying above but did he really expect that it was going to be written down and become a sin in every age that follwed (it appears that scholars believe it so). Maybe those people reporting what he said (being human) didn’t quite get it exactly word for word perfect, yet it appears that scholars are presuming they did.
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not speak of his own desire, but rather he received inspiration from Allaah the Exalted. As explained in the other thread, Islam is a complete religion for all times and places, hence it can never be outdated. Moreover, Allaah the Exalted has Himself promised to preserve this religion, and if you research into how hadeeth have been preserved, this doubt of yours will soon vanish.

Also in the first Hadith it talks about Allaah cursing eyebrow pluckers . . . .altering the creation of Allaah but the second Hadith commands that the moustache be trimmed. Would God be so prescriptive to say that it is a sin to trim your beard and a sin not to trim your moustache?

Finally how come I see lots of Muslims with moustaches or without beards; will they go to hell?
Islam is a religion that covers all aspects of life, and among the things it emphasises is cleanliness and purity, hence the removal of certain hair. This is characteristic of the wisdom that is present in all of Allaah the Exalted’s commands. Another example is that in trimming the moustache, it is a means of beautification, purification and also avoidance of imitation of the polytheists. However, we cannot always know what the wisdom behind a divine ruling is and this is why it is wrong to question them too far. For a true believer, it is sufficient to know that Allaah the Exalted is the One who has decreed it, and in return we hear and obey.

Not all Muslims have the same level of faith, hence some perform more duties than others. The question of who will go to hell is for God alone. But we should bear in mind the vast forgiveness of God:

http://www.islamicboard.com/manners-...-all-sins.html


How do I apply this analogy to the rulings and edicts of Islamic scholars; let us take for example to question of the veil. If a scholar rules that the evidence suggests that a woman does not need to cover her ***** and he is wrong God will punish him; if he rules that woman must cover her ***** God will not punish him, it consequently follows that the scholar has everything to gain and nothing to lose by interpreting the evidence as strictly as possible.
It is essential that such a scholar strives in expending his efforts to arrive at knowledge of the truth, and to give rulings in accordance to what is apparent to him. If he is correct, then he has two rewards: one for his ijtihâd (expending efforts to arrive at a Sharî’ah ruling), and the other for arriving at the truth - since arriving at the truth means that it is manifested and acted upon. If, however, he is mistaken, then he has a single reward, and his error is forgiven for him - as the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When a judge judges and strives and is correct, then he has two rewards. If he judges and strives and errs, then he has a single reward.”[Related by al-Bukhârî (13/318) and Muslim (no.1716)]

I know there are the ‘companions’ whom I presume are the people who were in direct day to day contact with Mohammed and I have read text of them saying “Mohammed told me that it should be done this way” or “I heard Mohammed say this” or “I saw Mohammed do that” and that those things constitute an hadith. My question is – is that where the line is drawn or do they go further to, for example include hearsay - “a companion told me that Mohammed had told him this or that” OR when scholars extrapolate something from two hadith does that become an hadith e.g. if we agree that hadith ‘a’ and hadth ‘b’ are correct it logically follows that we should do *******?
The Companions were very righteous people and understood the importance of preserving knowledge. When relating such information, the narrators of a hadeeth would mention the chain of people they heard it from, which allows the hadeeth to be tracked to the source and scrutinised for authenticity. It is important to note that numerous hadeeth warn against claiming any statement to be a statement of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) when it is not so. The Companions understood this well as many of them used to perspire when narrating hadeeth on the authority of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) out of fear that they would make the slightest mistake in the narration.

When scholars derive rulings from hadeeth, those rulings are not themselves hadeeth. Remember that hadeeth are the sayings, deeds and approvals of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and rulings are based on these.

I posed a further question “is every hadith to be read literally; could it not be that when someone says 'touch the hand' they might be using a euphemism for hand meaning something more than hand e.g. ***.
Interpreting hadeeth is not something everyone can do. Rather it is for those people of knowledge who understand all the principles behind it. What you have said above is mere speculation. Some hadeeth are very clear and easy to follow, others may require more research to find out how they should be understood.

From what I have learned here and elsewhere I have formed the view that many of the Muslims contributing here believe that they should strive to closely follow the Sunnah (as described above) in some instances searching for the smallest detail of what Muhammad did and said on diverse issues. They do that and copy those examples but ignore other examples of what Muhammed did which today would be socially unaccaptbale or even illegal – how do you reconcile that?
The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was a mercy to mankind. There is nothing that he did which would be socially unacceptable. For example, marrying four wives may not be allowed in some countries, but there is nothing socially unacceptable about it.

Muslims are required to adhere to the sunnah as much as possible to emulate the example of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah). It should be noted however, that there are different types of Sunnah. There are some things that were specific to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and nobody else is allowed to do. There are some things we have to do, there are some things that we are encouraged to do, and so on.

There are certain verses in the Qur’an and hadith that keep coming into question. When I first read the Qur’an and started researching Islamic teachings I discovered these verses. I joined this forum and asked for an explanation, I could almost hear the groans from the replies telling me that the question had already been discussed before and I should go away and read previous threads. I have read the eloquent explanations about why, for example, apostasy doesn’t really mean apostasy etc., etc. The problem (for Muslims who care what non Muslims think about them) is that these verses keep coming up; much as they might like, they just won’t go away. They don’t go away because a large section of the Muslim world don’t accept those eloquent explanations, they take the words literally. And, that situation is compounded when some of the (better educated and more enlightened) Muslim members of this forum choose to take certain verses literally (for example the shaking hands issue).

I have often said I am here to understand and by that I largely mean to understand how Muslims reconcile certain things. I don’t understand how you can reconcile in your head that you should not take the words of this sura literally but you should not take the words of that sura literally. I would like to know what you would reply to those men in Somalia who said to you “but you choose to take Sura 1234 literally why should I not take Sura 1235 literally”?
All of this goes back to what was mentioned earlier about understanding Islamic sources with knowledge. One does not simply open the Qur’an and derive his own rulings from it. One has to study the sciences of Qur’an as mentioned in the link about this above. One needs to have an in-depth knowledge of Islam. As the lay people are not qualified in this regard, they must refer to those who have knowledge of this subject.

I hope this has helped you to understand these issues further. And Allaah, the Ever-Majestic, Knows best.

Peace.
Reply

Riyadh-ul-Jannah
11-14-2008, 11:42 PM
:sl:

I am a bit behind, I am not going to reply to posts at the back, however reply to the actual thing right at the beginning. Forgive me, I am still small:-[ Not that I dont read the other replies. Anyway, as far as I am concerned what you said is right, sorry If I did not fulfill your ecpectations.

:w:
P.S When I write this I felt weird?
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