Veil

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Sura 24:31 And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms..." [Abdullah Yusuf Ali]


I would like to ask any native Arabic speakers amongst the members here about the translation of whichever word it is in the above verse which translates to veil.

The reason I ask this is because the English language changes and the English language dictionary is amended yearly to take into account modern influences and I don’t know how a veil is defined today but I do know what a the term veil meant to English people at the time when the Qur’an was translated into English.

As little as 20 years back and for hundreds of years beyond then to talk of a veil to a native Englishman meant a covering of the face, commonly a net covering of the face of a bride before a wedding ceremony which was lifted after the ceremony.

There were two other commonly used forms of dress which were the headscarf and the shawl. The headscarf was a square piece of cloth which covered the top of the head and was tied under the chin. The shawl was a large piece of heavy cloth that was draped around the shoulders and across the chest and could be pulled over the head.

My point of confusion is this: when the Qur’an was translated and someone looked at the Arabic word ??????? to try and decide which English word best fit why they chose veil because the veil was a covering of the face, not the head and it could in no way have stretched to the bosom. If the Arabic ?????? was for something to cover the head, then headscarf would have been more appropriate. If the Arabic word ????? was for something that could cover the shoulders chest and head then shawl would appear to be the most appropriate word.
 
the ayah in arabic has the actual word julaybayb

so it proves, that they should wear jilbabs, the scholars have differed on what it means by dont display what is but apparent,

anywhooo im a man:p dont concern me:D

but scholars such as ibn baz, and nearly all the al lajna ad da immaah crew said its fardh, some scholars say there is no explicit verse sayin to wear veil on faces, but because the women of the time of the Prophet (saw) understood it like that, so its recommended for women, but its not fardh anyway Allah hu alim
 
im not a native arabic speaker but ill attempt to answer your question

In the cambridge dictionary the veil is translated as:

to cover something, especially the face or body, with a veil:
a piece of thin material worn by women to cover the face or head:
and also:
a thin covering of something, which you can see through, but not very clearly
something that prevents you from knowing what is happening
to hide or cover something so that you cannot see it clearly:


In arabic the verse is:

وَلْيَضْرِبْنَ بِخُمُرِهِنَّ عَلَىٰ جُيُوبِهِنَّ

which is transliterated as

wal yudribna bikumurihinna alaa juyubihin.

that they should draw their veils over their bosoms

the word you are asking about is 'kumurihinna'

Im guessing with regards to the choice of the word 'veil' it is used because generally a veil in both a literal and methphorical manner when wanting as a cover/barrier/something that cant be seen.
So even if society may view the veil differently in different times, the known dictionary meaning sufficiently translates the word in a way that can be understood.
 
^ yeah sister

i think it comes down to what one describes as a khimar, just a head coverin or a face coverin aswell
 
amani said:
im not a native arabic speaker but ill attempt to answer your question

In the cambridge dictionary the veil is translated as:

to cover something, especially the face or body, with a veil:
a piece of thin material worn by women to cover the face or head:
and also:
a thin covering of something, which you can see through, but not very clearly
something that prevents you from knowing what is happening
to hide or cover something so that you cannot see it clearly:


In arabic the verse is:

وَلْيَضْرِبْنَ بِخُمُرِهِنَّ عَلَىٰ جُيُوبِهِنَّ

which is transliterated as

wal yudribna bikumurihinna alaa juyubihin.

that they should draw their veils over their bosoms

the word you are asking about is 'kumurihinna'

Im guessing with regards to the choice of the word 'veil' it is used because generally a veil in both a literal and methphorical manner when wanting as a cover/barrier/something that cant be seen.
So even if society may view the veil differently in different times, the known dictionary meaning sufficiently translates the word in a way that can be understood.
Click to expand...

Thank you for attempting to answer my question. I am sure the veil and what constitutes a veil has been discussed at length here many times. It just occured to me that at a point in time in the past, when the Qur'an was being translated into English and someone asked an Arabic scholar to described what 'kumurihinna' meant to Arabs, if he described something like the jilbab, I would have expected the English person to say that the nearest thing in English to described something that would cover the head, shoulders and chest would be a shawl not a veil. There is no way that any native English speaker call something that didn't cover the face a veil. Just seems a little odd but there are so many things I don't understand !! Thanks again.
 
Thinker said:
Hi,

I'd like to ask this question on the Q&A site at http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/islamqapages/4 but can't get past the page giving the 'open times' does anybody know how to post a question on this site?
Click to expand...

I've posted questions loads of times and I have also received replies. If you're in the UK try around 8PM and also around 11 PM, I think these are the times they take questions.
 
Hi,

Thanks for that:

so when it says - Service will be available on these times (Makka Time {GMT+3}): followed by 'Tuesday 1900,' does that mean Tuesday 1600, 1900 or 2200
 
I can’t get through the Islam Q & A thing so I’m back here.

Amani (above) told me that the word in question is kumurihinna.

It logically follows that a kumurihinna is a piece of clothing.

I would appreciate a description of what a kumurihinna was/looked like at the time of the Prophet Mohammed and a description of that garment (if it was different) at the time when the Qur’an was translated into English.

Thanks
 
islamqa has an answer which may answer your questions
heres the link (quite long)
http://islamqa.com/en/ref/11774

and from that:

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “…and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms) …”. The jayb (pl. juyoob) is the neck opening of a garment and the khimaar (veil) is that with which a woman covers her head. If a woman is commanded to draw her veil over the neck opening of her garment then she is commanded to cover her face, either because that is implied or by analogy. If it is obligatory to cover the throat and chest, then it is more appropriate to cover the face because it is the site of beauty and attraction.

Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “Allaah commanded the believing women, if they go out of their houses for some need, to cover their faces from the top of their heads with their jilbaabs, and to leave one eye showing.”
 
As Salamu Alaikum,

There is a book out that talks about the muslimah dress and I found it to be very helpful in understanding this word "veil"that has been translated into one meaning. It is called Niqaab: A Seal On The Debate. the prefix of the book says "The author has brought together the collective evidences from the various books of Hadeeth in discussing the dress code of the Muslimah. The book brings to light the meaning of Khimaar, Jilbaab, Hijaab and Niqaab and describes their various attributes after teasing them out from the ambiguous word 'veil' which have all been translated into the English language." It can be gotten from many islamic bookstores online. Here are a few places that have the book.

http://www.darussalam.com/product_info.php?products_id=995
http://islamicbookstore.com/b9708.html

kareema
 
Originally Posted by Thinker
Hi,

I formed the view based upon some of your posts that you are an Arabic speaker (of course I could be wrong). If you are, I’d much appreciate if you would take a look at my question on the thread below.

http://www.islamicboard.com/general/134271194-veil.html

Thanks
Click to expand...


Greetings Thinker
'bekhmrehnna' '' where the word khemar comes from--this is a source of dispute among the scholars--
some believe it is a face cover, some believe otherwise--then there is the question of it being wajid/fard or being a sunnah--leading to multiple branches of dispute-- some believe it goes back to the local custom-- best is to look at the tafsir of Surat AlNoor--read the opinions of the scholars-- look at the book Lisan AL Arab dictionary-
http://www.quraninstitute.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=364

So Khimar the root word is Khmar-- or cover--as in the hadith of the Prophet PBUH when he said-- "Khmmiru aniyatikum"--cover your containers (food containers)--so whatever covers something else is called Khimaar--

And God knows best.. but this is my understanding of the language..

as for Niqab being obligatory or only asked of the prophet's wives.. I am not a scholar, I don't personally wear a Niqab, but find nothing wrong if a woman chooses to do so, it is her right, the way Latvian nuns are covered head to toe, or those monks in southern Spain who wear those KKK type head covering..
As for what they wore during the time of the Prophet? from my understanding their overcoats were sort of cloaks.. protective all around especially from desert which can be of extreme weather
-- when the verse was revelaed in Surat AlAhzaab as far as I know they had cloaks-- O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies 33:59

as far as I know for sure, they didn't have polyester or synthetic material then for it to resemble what is being sold today.. but the idea is generally the same..

I hope I was of help?
and again Allah knows best

Thank you for your query

cheers
 
addendum:

يَا أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ قُل لِّأَزْوَاجِكَ وَبَنَاتِكَ وَنِسَاء الْمُؤْمِنِينَ يُدْنِينَ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِن جَلَابِيبِهِنَّ ذَلِكَ أَدْنَى أَن يُعْرَفْنَ فَلَا يُؤْذَيْنَ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ غَفُورًا رَّحِيمًا {59}​
[Yusufali 33:59] O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.


[Pickthal 33:59] O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.

so again you can see why there are multiple opinions/translations..

I thought to add the full verse with different translations so you can support your understanding from more than one source..

cheers
 
Thank you all for the helpful replies, I know it must be irritating for someone (particularly a non Muslim) to bring up something which has been discussed before.

I was watching TV last nigh and there was a documentary on the life of a biblical figure followed by a documentary on modern day India. The female (Christian) biblical figure wore a large piece of cloth on her back which could and was drawn up over her head and could be drawn across her chest. The modern day peasant (Hindu) woman in India wore the same garment (albeit brightly coloured) in the same way. In my question above I asked for a description of the kumurihinna worn at the time of Mohammed and I expected to get a description of a garment as I have described here i.e. a large square of cloth worn on the back draped over the shoulders and arms and which could be drawn up over the head and drawn across the chest. That type of garment might be called a scarf, or a shawl or a cloak but I can’t see how it could be described as a veil. That is the point I’m trying to make but again, I presume I missing something as I must presume that others before me have pondered and answered that question?

Thanks again
 
I believe you are not getting a focused definitive answer because there are indeed multiple schools of thoughts..
I understand that some contend that freedom of a woman is to shed her clothes, but I'd argue there is great subjugation in that.. further if you follow the last verse I enclosed from the Quran.. stating' to cover as to not be harassed' compared to the christian view

1 Corinthians 11:3-12)

The head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is just as though her head were shaved. If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. A man ought not to cover his head,[a] since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.

you'll see the Islamic view is really more dignified in request but not outlandish to conventional wisdom be it, Jewish/Christian or pagan -- which is for a woman to don dignified modest wear, that won't subjugate her or make her subject to molestation and harassment as per suret Al ahzab..

I don't personally know what they physically wore during the time of the prophet, I do know before Islam folks used to go around naked at times, even in Mecca where they had their idols. donning clothes was left of folks of privilege.

In Islam we aren't allowed to depict human figures least of which of messengers, or holy folks, so we can only imagine from description what they wore...
the root of the word as per dictionary is to cover, and folks can cover in different ways so long as it is done..

When I wear a scrub in the OR that is a form of khimar
SuperStock_1612R-2292.jpg


but you can't really use this form of khimar out on the streets no?

eh time for me to break fast

cheers
 
Thinker said:
Sura 24:31 And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms..." [Abdullah Yusuf Ali]


I would like to ask any native Arabic speakers amongst the members here about the translation of whichever word it is in the above verse which translates to veil.

The reason I ask this is because the English language changes and the English language dictionary is amended yearly to take into account modern influences and I don’t know how a veil is defined today but I do know what a the term veil meant to English people at the time when the Qur’an was translated into English.

As little as 20 years back and for hundreds of years beyond then to talk of a veil to a native Englishman meant a covering of the face, commonly a net covering of the face of a bride before a wedding ceremony which was lifted after the ceremony.

There were two other commonly used forms of dress which were the headscarf and the shawl. The headscarf was a square piece of cloth which covered the top of the head and was tied under the chin. The shawl was a large piece of heavy cloth that was draped around the shoulders and across the chest and could be pulled over the head.

My point of confusion is this: when the Qur’an was translated and someone looked at the Arabic word ??????? to try and decide which English word best fit why they chose veil because the veil was a covering of the face, not the head and it could in no way have stretched to the bosom. If the Arabic ?????? was for something to cover the head, then headscarf would have been more appropriate. If the Arabic word ????? was for something that could cover the shoulders chest and head then shawl would appear to be the most appropriate word.
Click to expand...

:sl:

We should focus on the functions and conditions instead of vocabulary. It is clearly advised to both men and women to keep their eyes [gaze] lower, plus advised women to hide their body too in a normal and comfortable manner.

Therefore, shawl seems nearer to these instruction when it is loosely wrapped around the body and cover head with a little extension - like brides do in India / Kashmir/Some parts of upper Pakistan [it is called Ghonghat] [Search Ghonghat Images in google for a better understanding].

These condition can be meet with different clothing gears according to context, ease of availability and practical reasons.

In Indian Sub Continent context Shawls are good.

In Middle eastern context their is a loose fitting outer garment - I do not know it's actual name, it is very similar to white dress of Arab men.

In European, American and other western contexts a loose fitting cloak with some head covering and a veil would be nice to meet the conditions described in The Holy Book of Quran.

But the very first thing is lowering the gazes. When men do not look at women's body then they will not find any reason to show themselves.

It is all what I understand and believe best of my knowledge and understanding.

And Allah Knows Best
 
My two cents....

Khimaar comes from the word khamr, the root meaning of which is to cover. For example, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “Khammiru aaniyatakum (cover your vessels).” Everything that covers something else is called its khimaar. But in common usage khimaar has come to be used as a name for the garment with which a woman covers her head; in some cases this does not go against the linguistic meaning of khimaar. Some of the fuqahaa’ have defined it as that which covers the head, the temples and the neck. The difference between the hijaab and the khimaar is that the hijaab is something which covers all of a woman’s body, whilst the khimaar in general is something with which a woman covers her head."

Imam Abu Abdullah Qurtubi said: "Women in those days used to cover their heads with the khimar, throwing its ends upon their backs. This left the neck and the upper part of the chest bare, along with the ears, in the manner of the Christians. Then Allah commanded them to cover those parts with the khimar."

Imam Abu'l-Fida ibn Kathir said: "'Draw their khumur to cover their bosoms' means that they should wear the khimar in such a way that they cover their chests so that they will be different from the women of the jahiliyyah who did not do that but would pass in front of men with their chests uncovered and with their necks, forelocks, hair and earrings uncovered."

To read more on niqab, visit: http://www.muttaqun.com/niqab.html
 
AsSalamu Alaikum,

the book I mentioned Niqaab a seal on the debate gives the ahadeeth about what was the islamic dress for the muslimah, so it was at the time of the Prophet (saw). It also shows a few drawings of dolls without faces that are dressed in the same way as they muslimah dressed.

Kareema
 

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