The covenant with the Jews wasn't eternal [According to the OT!]

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


The Jews were God's chosen people - if they fulfilled the conditions He ordered them to follow, if they did - then He would continue to bless them, but if they didn't than He would abandon them and raise up a new ummah [nation]. This fact is mentioned in their own book

"The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah." (Jeremiah* 31:31)

The new covenant which is binding upon not only the nation of Israel, but in fact all the nations of the world is the covenant which Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa salam) has been brought with, namely Islam.


*Jeremiah is from the Old Testament - which Jews accept.

[suffiyan007]

yeah, the Jeremiah is in the old testament in the bible...1


i dont understand what you trying to explained...can u make it clearly...so i can understand clearly... :blind::?:rollseyes:X

[barney]

Removing the words "House of Israel" really makes the difference. Based on that , any religion past present and future could claim that theirs is the "new covenant".

The problem with the old one is that that wasnt fullfilled either!
The Torah says that Yaweh would make the jews as numerous as the stars.
Last time i checked there wasnt 15 trillion jews and counting! Merely one billionth of that amount.

[Trumble]

The new covenant which is binding upon not only the nation of Israel, but in fact all the nations of the world is the covenant which Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa salam) has been brought with, namely Islam.

Or Christianity! The whole basis of which is such a covenant.

The whole concept is deeply associated with Jewish messianic and eschatological ideas. Christians consider Jesus to be the mediator of such a "new covenant" ('New Covenant' and 'New Testament' are interchangeable in this context) in preparation for such an "end of days", which - with apologies to Christian readers - would seem ever less plausible the longer we go without seeing Judgement Day.

However, the idea this refers to Mohammed and Islam is even less plausible; whatever else Mohammed was he was not a 'messiah'.

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[doorster]

Or Christianity! The whole basis of which is such a covenant.

The whole concept is deeply associated with Jewish messianic and eschatological ideas. Christians consider Jesus to be the mediator of such a "new covenant" ('New Covenant' and 'New Testament' are interchangeable in this context) in preparation for such an "end of days", which - with apologies to Christian readers - would seem ever less plausible the longer we go without seeing Judgement Day.

However, the idea this refers to Mohammed and Islam is even less plausible; whatever else Mohammed was he was not a 'messiah'.

I think we should know/believe that already. any Muslim who would claim that Hazrat Muhammad May Peace be upon Him, is 'messiah' is replacing The 'messiah' of Qura'an namely Hazrat Eesa Alahisalam and is in trouble

[mkh4JC]

God did not renege his covenant with the Jewish people. As it was stated, the New Testament is indeed the New Covenant that God was referring to, it's just that God has largely placed a veil over the Jewish people's eyes, and that is why they haven't as whole accepted Jesus as their Messiah, until the fullness of the Gentiles or the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. Here's some scriptures for you to mull over:

'I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

And if by grace, then it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) until this day.

And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

Let their eyes be darkened that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

...

For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

...

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Romans: 11: 1-12, 15, 25-27.

The fulness of the Gentiles will be come in after the rapture of the church, and it is during the 7 year tribulation that God's focus will shift back towards the Jewish people. And Abraham's seed is as numerous as the stars, when you factor in the many Gentiles who have accepted Christ in Christianity's two thousand year history. Those who have accepted Christ are Jews in spirit.

[barney]

106,456,367,669 people who have ever lived
http://www.prb.org/Articles/2002/How...edonEarth.aspx

Thats assuming that cavemen were jews and everyone who has ever lived is a jew ("in spirit!").

Now how many stars in the universe?

http://www.esa.int/esaSC/SEM75BS1VED_index_0.html
10000000000000000000000000 Stars
106,456,367,669 People

So even if every human ever was a jew then one thousand trillion times as many stars are estimated in the universe.

Rational response? The people who looked into the desert sky on a starry night and saw tens of thousands of stars were impressed and thus had their god communicate this to them.

Unless God intends to pile Jewish human beings hundreds of millions of miles thick upon every face of the earth, this is a covenent that he has broken.

[mkh4JC]

106,456,367,669 people who have ever lived
http://www.prb.org/Articles/2002/How...edonEarth.aspx

Thats assuming that cavemen were jews and everyone who has ever lived is a jew ("in spirit!").

Now how many stars in the universe?

http://www.esa.int/esaSC/SEM75BS1VED_index_0.html
10000000000000000000000000 Stars
106,456,367,669 People

So even if every human ever was a jew then one thousand trillion times as many stars are estimated in the universe.

Rational response? The people who looked into the desert sky on a starry night and saw tens of thousands of stars were impressed and thus had their god communicate this to them.

Unless God intends to pile Jewish human beings hundreds of millions of miles thick upon every face of the earth, this is a covenent that he has broken.

:-[ I see what I wrote there. Even I took it too literally. It has not been broken though. There hasn't been trillions of people who have ever lived on the earth, God was just saying that Abraham's seed would be vast. God just used an illustration to communicate that to Abraham. Ancient people's numbering systems had not advanced to where ours is today. If God would have told Abraham that his seed would be in the hundreds of millions he wouldn't have understood. That's what I should have said. I did know this. I'm not that ignorant, I was just in a rush to prove a point.

[barrio79]

:salamext:


The Jews were God's chosen people - if they fulfilled the conditions He ordered them to follow, if they did - then He would continue to bless them, but if they didn't than He would abandon them and raise up a new ummah [nation]. This fact is mentioned in their own book

"The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah." (Jeremiah* 31:31)

The new covenant which is binding upon not only the nation of Israel, but in fact all the nations of the world is the covenant which Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa salam) has been brought with, namely Islam.


*Jeremiah is from the Old Testament - which Jews accept.

This may well be exactly true but you might have a hard time convincing Hindus Buddhists and members ofall the faiths that are somewhat older than Judaism

[barney]

:-[ I see what I wrote there. Even I took it too literally. It has not been broken though. There hasn't been trillions of people who have ever lived on the earth, God was just saying that Abraham's seed would be vast. God just used an illustration to communicate that to Abraham. Ancient people's numbering systems had not advanced to where ours is today. If God would have told Abraham that his seed would be in the hundreds of millions he wouldn't have understood. That's what I should have said. I did know this. I'm not that ignorant, I was just in a rush to prove a point.

Well OK, I'm heavily into non-literalism meself.

Lets take it as metaphorical. God was saying there would be vast amounts of decendents.
To measure something we have to have a baseline. There are currently 13.2 million jews and 6,700,000,000 people on the earth.
So the vast jewish nation raised up beyond all others amounts now to 0.2% of the population. This is its highest ever level even before the holocaust.

Oh and talking of the holocaust, that kinda broke his covenant as well. No nation will ever make them slaves or be able to harm them again.
Guess the Nazi's skipped that bit. :(

[mkh4JC]

Well OK, I'm heavily into non-literalism meself.

Lets take it as metaphorical. God was saying there would be vast amounts of decendents.
To measure something we have to have a baseline. There are currently 13.2 million jews and 6,700,000,000 people on the earth.
So the vast jewish nation raised up beyond all others amounts now to 0.2% of the population. This is its highest ever level even before the holocaust.

Well again, if you don't include those of the New Covenant (Christians) then you will find the promise to be lacking or unfulfilled. But--as I explained and showed through scripture--Christianity is the New Covenant. The Jewish people will largely come to realize that Christ is the Messiah after the rapture of the church. The Bible speaks of this, saying the following:

"I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.'

Zechariah: 12:10

This is in the Old Testament. Obviously this hasn't happened yet because most Jews haven't accepted Christ as their savior, though there is still a remnant who believe in the authority of the New Testament (ie Messianic Torah Judaism). But it will happen, once God removes the veil from their eyes.

[barney]

I'd say that that could apply to any number of situations, past, present or future.
Having said that I would say that, cos im a snarky old sceptic.

[north_malaysian]

The Torah says that Yaweh would make the jews as numerous as the stars.
Last time i checked there wasnt 15 trillion jews and counting! Merely one billionth of that amount.

You took it soooo literally.... :D

[Chuck]

You took it soooo literally.... :D

lulz:bump:

[barney]

Well theres an arguement for taking something literally.
As i say, back in whenever BC looking at the stars and promising something like that would be perfectly feasable.

Bring about the invention of massive telescopes, and that changes things slightly.
So my point is this is another arguement for inaccuracy in the bible.

[Keltoi]

Well theres an arguement for taking something literally.
As i say, back in whenever BC looking at the stars and promising something like that would be perfectly feasable.

Bring about the invention of massive telescopes, and that changes things slightly.
So my point is this is another arguement for inaccuracy in the bible.

Seems like a figure of speech to me. When a person states that something is as numerous as the stars I do not believe they are literally suggesting that the number is indeed equivalent to the number of stars in the universe. That number could be infinite as far as we know.

I suppose as this was a statement attributed to God then the number should be seen as literal, but I don't really assume that either. During the ancient period, what number could the ancients even understand? How high of a number I mean. An expression such as "as numerous as the stars" would be easily understood however. Not in literal mathematics but in concept.

[barney]

Which kinda takes me circularly back to the fact that the Jews are 0.2% of the world population at best.

When I think that the Creator deity, singled them out as a chosen nation and told them they would be as numerous as the stars and nobody would hurt them etc etc etc and the actual situation is they make up a drop in the ocean and pretty much everyone either hates them,or has killed them on sight it makes you start to question the stability of the original "holy man" who heard that particular voice!
Perhaps it's their "test"?

[doorster]

Jews are 0.2% of the world population at best.

and (for argument sake) that is going to remain the same till the day comes? among other things (i.e. being a historian,mathematician, physicist, physician etc.) you can tell the future too? wow!:statisfie :thumbs_up

<snip>

[barney]

and (for argument sake) that is going to remain the same till the day comes? among other things (i.e. being a historian,mathematician, physicist, physician etc.) you can tell the future too? wow!:statisfie :thumbs_up

j/k :)

Nope, they might have some mad giant growth of numbers that made them have a numerically significant position in the world.

Ask yourself if thats actually likely?

BTW out of your list, i consider myself a historian and sort of physician

[Chuck]

Which kinda takes me circularly back to the fact that the Jews are 0.2% of the world population at best.

Promise was not for the Jews, in the Bible it is promise for the "seed" of Abraham (pbuh). Seed means here progeny and followers of Abraham (pbuh).

[mkh4JC]

Promise was not for the Jews, in the Bible it is promise for the "seed" of Abraham (pbuh). Seed means here progeny and followers of Abraham (pbuh).

The promise does actually concern the Jews. God made that abundantly clear in Genesis:

And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generation for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Genesis: 17: 7


Also here:

And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

Genesis 12: 2-3.

It is through Jesus Christ that all of the nations of the earth have been blessed, and salvation has been made available to the Gentiles.

Also consider these few scriptures:

And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!

And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Issac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

Genesis 17: 18-19.

As I illustrated earlier, God has not abandoned the Jewish people in any wise.

[barney]

Remember Fedos that Ishmael was the one on the sacrificial alter not Issac!

[doorster]

Remember Fedos that Ishmael was the one on the sacrificial alter not Issac!

sarcastic insults or just innocent fun and games? (maybe barney has become a believer with that exclamation mark)

[Chuck]

I did not say it doesn't concern Jews, but as your quote of Bible shows it is a general promise for the seed of Abraham (pbuh). This was a response to barney's post. If you think that promise only included Jews then you can answer him on his question.

As far as Jews are concerned and where God has taken away Kingdom of God from them, that is entirely different topic.

The promise does actually concern the Jews. God made that abundantly clear in Genesis:

And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generation for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Genesis: 17: 7


Also here:

And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

Genesis 12: 2-3.

It is through Jesus Christ that all of the nations of the earth have been blessed, and salvation has been made available to the Gentiles.

Also consider these few scriptures:

And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!

And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Issac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

Genesis 17: 18-19.

As I illustrated earlier, God has not abandoned the Jewish people in any wise.

[barney]

sarcastic insults or just innocent fun and games? (maybe barney has become a believer with that exclamation mark)

I was reminding him that this was the islamic perspective.

About 60% of my stuff is sarcasm admittadly, but this bit wasnt :D

[Oleander]

Genesis 17:20 "As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him, and will make him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation.


>>>Is the above verse a prophecy, or a promise?

[barney]

Well its Allah speaking, so that would be a promise. A prophecy is where you are predicting what will happen.
Allah wouldnt predict, he would know.

[Chuck]

Genesis 17:20 "As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him, and will make him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation.


>>>Is the above verse a prophecy, or a promise?

Both. First & last part is promise "I will bless him, and will make him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly" "will make him a great nation"

Mid part prophecy "He shall become the father of twelve princes"

[ASeeker]

If I say, "it's raining cats and dogs" does everyone expect our furry friends to start falling from the sky? There is literalism and downright silliness.

[Oleander]

If I say, "it's raining cats and dogs" does everyone expect our furry friends to start falling from the sky? There is literalism and downright silliness.


>>>Can you explain a little more?

[barney]

If I say, "it's raining cats and dogs" does everyone expect our furry friends to start falling from the sky? There is literalism and downright silliness.

Yahweh dos'nt promise felines and canines as inclement weather.
He promises that noone will have superiority over the jews or enslave them. He's a God.
He has thus either broken his covenant or he is as divine as David Son Of God Koresh

Yahweh has multiply and excessively broken all his promises on a continual basis. In 1943 a group of jews in Auswich camp put god on trial. They charged him with breaking the covenent. The procecuters were real Judges, the accusers jews and the defendents Rabbi's.
As they waited to die, they made judgement on God.
He had broken the covenet and given a new one to Germany.

[Grace Seeker]

It appears we have forgotten the orginal post:

:salamext:


The Jews were God's chosen people - if they fulfilled the conditions He ordered them to follow, if they did - then He would continue to bless them, but if they didn't than He would abandon them and raise up a new ummah [nation]. This fact is mentioned in their own book

"The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah." (Jeremiah* 31:31)

The new covenant which is binding upon not only the nation of Israel, but in fact all the nations of the world is the covenant which Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa salam) has been brought with, namely Islam.


*Jeremiah is from the Old Testament - which Jews accept.

There is much about what Qatada writes that I agree with, though I think he incorrectly assigns this new covenant to Muhammad. Let's take a look at what follows from this verse:

Jeremiah 31

31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,"
declares the LORD.

33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD.
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."

Notice how the new covenant will be different from the old covenant. In the new covenant the law is to be in people's minds and written on their hearts. Does this describe Islam? Well, in the sense that one is to submit to Allah it does. But, it also seems that what the nature of that submission is to be is found spelled out in the Qur'an and Hadith. That is why even here we are told that if you want an answer to something you have to consult an Islamic scholar, because people can't just know on their own. The answer is not in their minds or their hearts, it is written down somewhere.

But, is there a religion that looks not to a book, but to the heart? I suggest to you that this is indeed what Jesus can proclaiming. And this very passage is explained in the New Testament (so called because it is a witness to a new covenant God established in Jesus) book of Hebrews:

Hebrews 8

7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and said:
"The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
9It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."

13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Hebrews 10

15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16"This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds." 17Then he adds:
"Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more." 18And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. 19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.

[Oleander]

Grace>>But, is there a religion that looks not to a book, but to the heart? I suggest to you that this is indeed what Jesus can proclaiming. And this very passage is explained in the New Testament (so called because it is a witness to a new covenant God established in Jesus) book of Hebrews:


>>>Jesus was a Jew. So, when he said: the covenant will be taken away from the Jews, and giving to another people, he means another not the same except if you can prove he was not a jew!

Now why it's Ismael turn?

God promise of "great nation" only to 3 people: Abraham, Ismael, and Isaac.

The first and the last, get thier own nation, how about the second one, where is it?

[Grace Seeker]

I think the new covenant is more than the transference of the old covenant to a new group of people, but a totally new nature to the covenant itself. The scriptues themselves indicate that it is a covenant based on the heart given to God as being the central aspect of it. The keeping of a certain set of behaviors arise out of the heart directed toward God, they are not an end in and of themselves.


As far as being a great nation, I think that was already true for Ishmael even without it being connected to any particular covenant.