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Hawa
10-23-2008, 10:25 PM
:sl:

Anyone read it?
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-23-2008, 10:27 PM
link?
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Hawa
10-23-2008, 10:34 PM
It's a book written by an apostate and praised by Daniel Pipes of all the devils..here's a Wikipedia ink, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_I_Am_Not_a_Muslim
I just wanted to know if there's anyone here who's read it and what their thoughts were...
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-23-2008, 10:37 PM
just from the topics im guessing its a man who finds islam to be uncompromising


and that it most certainly is!

The Totalitarian Nature of Islam
^ lol thats a total give away ! obviously when you believe something is the truth you'll follow it through from the depths of your heart ! and try to spread it as far and wide as you can believing in its beauty!
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buddy1
10-23-2008, 10:39 PM
I think i might buy it just to see, if i do buy it, I will let you know what i think!!

sounds a bit narrow minded to me, but have a look around! :D
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-23-2008, 10:40 PM
^ it will be misquotations upon misquotations followed by lies and slanders.


i do hope you wont waste your money on it, its like supporting it :( these people are attention seekers, right an anti-islamic book - get attentoin and lots of money ! thats how it is..
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Brother_Mujahid
10-23-2008, 10:42 PM
Dont waste your time reading garbage like that. i haven't even bothered looking at the link.
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buddy1
10-23-2008, 10:44 PM
good point, will see if i can find a link to have a flick tho, i like to hear others opinions, i wont listen to it tho, i have judged this religion myself and see no wrong doing in it at all, its a beautiful religion far better than some.i dont use others opinions to judge, i like to make my decisions on things through my own experiences and this forum in one day made my decision. i just like to know what others think!! :D that probably makes no sense at all!!!
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-23-2008, 10:55 PM
^ lol it will be to feed your curiosity.


although you gotta post up any doubts you have here, so i can show you the whole context :p
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Hamayun
10-23-2008, 11:30 PM
Originally Posted by buddy1
good point, will see if i can find a link to have a flick tho, i like to hear others opinions, i wont listen to it tho, i have judged this religion myself and see no wrong doing in it at all, its a beautiful religion far better than some.i dont use others opinions to judge, i like to make my decisions on things through my own experiences and this forum in one day made my decision. i just like to know what others think!! :D that probably makes no sense at all!!!
It will no doubt confuse you by using out of context verses and Hadith's. Be sure to post any concerns you have here to get facts.

Peace
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wth1257
10-24-2008, 06:46 AM
I know about about Ibn Warraq(I believe that's the author's name).

Based on acadamic journal articles of some of his books he has the potential to do goos scholarship, but is often faulted for the pejoratives and lack of balance that permiate his books on Islam.
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The Khan
10-24-2008, 07:33 AM
Maybe I should write a book on "Why I'm not Sunni, Shi'a, or Ibadi".

Then again, all it would do is make 99% of Muslims hate me.
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-24-2008, 09:34 AM
^ your with the submitters? (quran only people)
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The Khan
10-24-2008, 09:50 AM
Not the submitters international. I consider them filthy for declaring Rashad Khilafa a prophet, astaghfirullah. I'm a free thinker. I believe the Qur'an is the only true and authentic source for Islam. Anything else is unnecessary or a fabrication.
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Hawa
10-24-2008, 09:52 AM
Originally Posted by wth1257
I know about about Ibn Warraq(I believe that's the author's name).

Based on acadamic journal articles of some of his books he has the potential to do goos scholarship, but is often faulted for the pejoratives and lack of balance that permiate his books on Islam.

I've read some reviews and everyone seems to think his work is ridiculously biased, everyone but Daniel Pipes that is.

Buddy1 if you want to read it, go for it. I'm starting this week and if I do have any questions I'll definitely come here..I'll ask Skye (salaam sis :))
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-24-2008, 09:54 AM
Originally Posted by The Khan
Not the submitters international. I consider them filthy for declaring Rashad Khilafa a prophet, astaghfirullah. I'm a free thinker. I believe the Qur'an is the only true and authentic source for Islam. Anything else is unnecessary or a fabrication.
then your in quite a predicament lol, because the Quran commands us to obey and follow the prophet, and how can we do that if we dont accept hadith>


btw have you read up on the preservation of the sunnah? researched it? because i dont see how you can possibly find it to be unnecessary or a fabrication after properly looking into it!
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Brother_Mujahid
10-24-2008, 09:58 AM
Originally Posted by The Khan
Not the submitters international. I consider them filthy for declaring Rashad Khilafa a prophet, astaghfirullah. I'm a free thinker. I believe the Qur'an is the only true and authentic source for Islam. Anything else is unnecessary or a fabrication.
you doopy guy,

so the quran was revealed to the prophet (saw) and you don't follow his narrations.

The quran clearly states obey Allah and obey his rasool.
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-24-2008, 10:00 AM
Originally Posted by Brother_Mujahid
you doopy guy,.
[S]thats not necessary[/S]
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doorster
10-24-2008, 10:04 AM
Originally Posted by The Khan
Not the submitters international. I consider them filthy for declaring Rashad Khilafa a prophet, astaghfirullah. I'm a free thinker. I believe the Qur'an is the only true and authentic source for Islam. Anything else is unnecessary or a fabrication.
is alkafi a fabrication or just unnecessary?

wa salam
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The Khan
10-24-2008, 10:11 AM
Originally Posted by Mz
then your in quite a predicament lol, because the Quran commands us to obey and follow the prophet, and how can we do that if we dont accept hadith>


btw have you read up on the preservation of the sunnah? researched it? because i dont see how you can possibly find it to be unnecessary or a fabrication after properly looking into it!
Really? If so, I have a question: Why is that, until Caliph Umar II, the 11th Caliph, all the previous Caliphs has absolutely forbidden any compilation of the Qur'an? Abu Bakr, Umar I, Uthman, Ali, Muawiya, even Yazid forbade compilation of hadith!

Originally Posted by Brother_Mujahid
you doopy guy,

so the quran was revealed to the prophet (saw) and you don't follow his narrations.

The quran clearly states obey Allah and obey his rasool.
I shall quote this long line of text from another website explaining my view, as I don't have the energy to type so much today (sickness).

The hadith followers in their earnest attempt to advocate the legality of following the hadith and sunna of the prophet, play on a corrupted interpretation of the Quranic command to "obey God and obey the Messenger". They claim that obeying God is to obey the Quran while as obeying the Messenger is to obey his hadith (personal sayings) and his sunnah (methods). They add that if obeying the Messenger was the same thing as obeying God's Quran, then God would have only said Obey God. Thus to their understanding, God's inclusion of "obey the Messenger" implies that the Messenger has his own set of religious teachings outside of the Quran that we must obey.

With the guidance of the Quran, the error in this claim can easily be exposed. In the light of the Quran it can easily be seen that to "obey the Messenger" is to obey the message he delivered (the Quran) and nothing else.



1- The necessity to say "obey the Messenger":

The inclusion of the phrase "obey the Messenger" after "Obey God" serves a number of important causes:

A- Who among the companions of the Prophet ever heard any of God's revelations directly from God? No one! Consequently, they cannot obey God except through Muhammad's delivery of the Quran. This once again makes it necessary for God to command people to obey the messenger since he is the one who delivers to them God's message. Moreover, the messenger did not just deliver the Quran and vanish! The prophet spent all his years from the time he first received the revelation till his death inviting all people to believe in and follow the Quran. Hence it is necessary for God to say to all humans to obey the messenger who is inviting them to follow the Quran.

B- The Quran was revealed to Muhammad in order that he would deliver it to a community which was primarily composed of idol worshippers but also some followers of the previous scripture like the Jews and the Christians (Nasara). Once again, and for the benefit of the followers of the scripture that we understand the neccessity of the phrase "obey the Messener". To make this clear, let us assume that the command in the Quran did not contain the phrase "obey the Messenger" but was only a command to "Obey God". Immediately, the Jews and the Christians (Nasara) would say : But we already obey God, God has sent us the scripture and we obey it!" Hence, the phrase "obey the messenger" which is enclosed in the message he (Muhammad) delivered to them (Quran) endorses the Quran itself as being the last revelation form God to all humans. The Quran was revealed to mankind so as to supercede all previous scripture:

"Then we revealed to you (O Muhammad) this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and SUPERSEDING them." 5:48



2- The duty of the Messenger:

"And obey God and obey the messenger and be cautious; but if you turn back, then know that the SOLE DUTY of the messenger is the deliverance (of the message)" 5:92

"And obey God and obey the messenger, but if you turn back, then upon Our messenger is the SOLE DUTY of the clear delivery (of the message)" 64:12

Now, if we look at these Ayaat, we notice that God has clearly pointed out the ONLY duty of the Messenger, i.e. that he must DELIVER the message (Quran).

The word Messenger is derived from the word Message. A Messenger delivers a Message. If there were no message there would not be a messenger. To Obey the Messenger would thus mean to obey the message he is delivering.



3- Is it obey "Muhammad" or "obey the Messenger"?

God is the most efficient in expressing any meaning. All Quranic words are chosen by God to convey a precise meaning.

We never read anywhere in the Quran words like "Obey God and obey Muhammad" or obey Jesus, or Moses..........always the word messenger........this is to emphasise once again that what is to be obeyed is the "message" of God and not the personal words or views of the messenger.

As mentioned earlier, the word Messenger is derived from the word Message. If there were no message there would not be a messenger. To Obey the Messenger would thus mean to obey the message he is delivering.



4- The only "message" revealed to Muhammad was the Quran:

In reply to this Quranic truth, the proponents of hadith claim that they have no problem with the fact that the only duty of Muhammad was to deliver the message, but they quickly add that the hadith and sunna of Muhammad are part of the "message" and were inspiration from God! They base such claim on a corrupted interpretion of 53:3-4. As a matter of fact, they claim that besides the hadith of Muhammad (which they claim was inspired) they claim that Muhammad received additional revelation directly from God outside the Quran which they call the 'Hadith Al-Qudsy' or the 'sacred hadith'!

For more info on the corruption of 53:3-4, please see:

The corruption of 53:3-4

With the guidance of the Quran we can quickly establish that Muhammad did not receive ANY revelation from God other than the Quran. Yes the prophet was inspired by God in certain personal matter, an example of that is found in 66:3 where God inspired the prophet regarding the truth of a domestic issue. However, this was mere inspiration from God and not revelation. The difference between inspiration and revelation is that God inspires all humans (note how God inspired the mother of Moses). God also inspires the animals (example of that is in 16:68 where God tells us how He inspires the bees). This is different from revelation which is specificaly an inspired scripture which contains religious laws and prohibitions.

Note here that hadith followers uphold the hadith and sunna as the second source of Islamic law besides the Quran, and by doing so they elevate the hadith to the status of revelation.

We are told in the Quran that the prophet did not receive any revelation from God other than the Quran:

"Say (Muhammad): What thing is 'Akbar Shahada' (greatest testimony)? Say: God is a Witness between me and you; this QURAN has been revealed to me by inspiration that with it I may warn you and all whom it reaches (BALAGHA)" 6:19

This testimony which God describes as "Akbar Shahada" "Greatest Testimony" commands Muhammad to testify that He received the Quran from God. This testimony speaks of only one revelation received by Muhammad from God which is the Quran. If Muhammad truly received other revelation from God other than the Quran, would we not find any mention of it in the Quran? Would God hide the fact that He gave Muhammad revelation outside the Quran and then command us to obey it?

Moreover, to insist that every word uttered by the prophet was even inspiration (let alone revelation) is once again to show ignorance with the Quran. We are given in the Quran six different cases where the prophet committed errors for which he was reprimanded by God.

The question here is how can someone who's every word is inspired by God commit ANY errors? Could God be inspiring mistakes to His prophet!!!



5- God promises to preserve the Quran and nothing else:

"Absolutely, we have revealed the 'Zhikr' (Quran), and, absolutely, we will preserve it." 15:9

These words proclaim God's promise to preserve the Quran. We do not read anywhere else in the Quran that God would preserve the personal sayings of the messenger. In actual fact, God did not preserve His Own previous scripture (Torah and Injeel), why would He preserve the human words of one of His servants? Is God elevating His servant to be a legislating god besides Him when God tells us that the SOLE duty of the messenger is to deliver His message?

But that is not all, we are told in the Quran that anything which is not from God would ultimately contain many contradictions and corruptions:

"If it were from other than God, they would have found in it numerous contradictions." 4:82

Despite these clear ayat, the followers of hadith have made claims that their cherished hadith books (primarily Bukhari and Muslim) are fully authentic (Sahih) and without corruption!

Do they not believe God's words in 15:9 and 4:82?



6- The command to follow the Quran and nothing else:

In the Quran God commands all believers to follow the Quran Alone, this command is found in numerous verses, the following are examples:

"These are God's revelations that We recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than God and His revelations do they believe?" 45:6

"Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?"6:114

This clear command once again confirms that obeying the messenger is confined to obeying the "message" he delivered from God (Quran) and nothing else.



7- Are we commanded to follow the Sunna of Muhammad?

The followers of hadith and Sunna use a corrupted meaning of 33:21 to imply that we should follow the methodology of the messenger and thus we need to follow his Sunna!

To expose the corruption and manipulation in such claim, let us first read 33:21

"The messenger of God has set up a good example for those among you who seek God and the Last Day, and constantly think about God." 33:21

From these words we note that God is very specific in describing the capacity in which the prophet has set a good example. The good example lies in his constant thinking of God and how he sought God and the last day.

Sadly, the worshippers of hadith and Sunna have reduced this glorious ayat so as to imply that we should eat as the prophet ate, sleep as he did and even enter the toilet with the same foot which he used!!! .... this is among many other ridiculous do's and do not's that fill the books of hadith.

To make the issue undisputable, God has told us in the Quran that the only Sunna is the Sunna of God. No where in the Quran is there any mention of the Sunna of Muhammad!!!!

"You will find that the Sunna of Allah is the only Sunna" (33:62....35:43.....48:23)



8- Was the messenger authorised by God to issue any teachings besides the Quran?

God asserts to all believers that prophet Muhammad was commanded not to teach any other teachings, otherwise he would incur severe punishment from God:

"It (the Quran) is a revelation from the Lord of the universe. Had he (Muhammad) uttered any other teachings, We would have grabbed him by the right, and We would have severed his Wateen (Major artery of the heart), none of you could have helped him."69:43-47

Those who insist that the prophet left us a second source of religious law (hadith) are either accusing the prophet of disobeying God's commands in 69:43-47, or do not really understand the Quran.



9- The instructions left by the prophet

In accordance to 6:114, 69:43-47 and many other clear cut ayat, prophet Muhammad himself commanded his people not to write his own hadith, this is documented in Muslim and other books:

"Do not write down anything of me except the Quran. Whoever writes other than that should delete it" (Ahmed, Vol. 1, page 171.....also Sahih Muslim)

For the first 200 years after the death of the prophet, and in accordance with his instructions, the writing of his hadith was forbidden. The first one to document a comprehensive collection of hadith was Al-Bukhari (Note that Al-Bukhari was born in the year 194 After Hijrah).

Even if we were to follow the hadith (which we are not), how accurate can a collection of sayings documented two centuries after the death of the prophet be?

The peculiar matter here is that the followers of hadith do not wish to obey the Quran nor do they want to obey the instructions left by the prophet! In their blind and stubborn adherence to the tales told by the likes of such narrators as Abu Huraira and others they make an astonishingly ridiculous claim. They claim that the prophet issued these instructions (not to write his hadith) only in the first period of revelation and only because he was worried that his hadith would be mixed up with the Quran! They add that these instructions were cancelled in his later years! Well, if that was the case, why did they wait two whole centuries before documenting the hadith? Did it take two centuries to prepare a copy of the Quran that did not have hadith mixed with it!!!

Moreover, by saying this ridiculous claim (that the prophet was afraid that his hadith would be mixed up with the Quran) they once again show their ignorance with the Quran. In Sura 75 we are assured that God would secure the safe collection of the Quran:

"It is WE who will collect it into Quran." 75:17

This promise from God about the safe collection of the Quran, plus the promise in 15:9 for the preservation of the Quran reduces the claim of the hadith followers (that the prophet was worried that his words would get mixed up with the Quran) to utter nonesense. It is either they do not believe God or they do not believe the prophet's trust in God's ability!



10- Did the prophet really follow other than the Quran?

The answer to this question is decisively dealt with in the Quran. We read:

"Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them. You shall rule among them in accordance with God's revelations, and do not follow their wishes if they differ from the truth that came to you" 5:48

God's command to the prophet to follow what was revelaed to him (Quran) is loud and clear. The importance of this command is emphasised as the same words "You shall rule among them in accordance with God's revelations" are repeated in ayat 49.

If we are to follow the prophet we must thus follow what he was commanded to follow, and that is the Holy Quran.
Many people site the Quraanic Verses that command us to Obey Allah and Obey the Messenger, and say that Obeying Allah and obeying the Messenger are two different things - Obeying Allah is to obey the Quraan and obeying the Messenger is to obey the books of Hadith. They point that if obeying the Messenger was the same thing as obeying Allah's Quraan, then Allah would have only said Obey Allah. These people say that Allahs inclusion of obey the Messenger implies that the Messenger is saying EXTRA things outside of the Quraan that we must obey.

The thing that many proponents of Hadith forget is that Allah does not leave it to speculation as to what the people are to obey. The Ayaat do not end at Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, but they continue to include what the duty of the Messenger is:

And obey Allah and obey the messenger and be cautious; but if you turn back, then know that only a clear deliverance of the message is (incumbent) on Our messenger <wa ma_ alar rasu_li il lal balaghul mubin (5:92)

And Allah has made for you of what He has created shelters, and He has given you in the mountains places of retreat, and He has given you garments to preserve you from the heat and coats of mail to preserve you in your fighting; even thus does He complete His favor upon you, that haply you may submit. But if they turn back, then on you devolves only the clear deliverance (of the message) <wa ma_ alar rasu_li il lal balaghul mubin. (16:81-82)

And if you (o people) reject (the truth), nations before you did indeed reject (the truth); and nothing is incumbent on the messenger but a plain delivering (of the message) <wa ma_ alar rasu_li il lal balaghul mubin.(29:18)

And obey Allah and obey the messenger, but if you turn back, then upon Our messenger devolves only the clear delivery (of the message) <wa ma_ alar rasu_li il lal balaghul mubin.(64:12)

Say: Obey Allah and obey the messenger; but if you turn back, then on him rests that which is imposed on him and on you rests that which is imposed on you; and if you obey him, you are on the right way; and nothing rests on the messenger but clear delivering (of the message) <wa ma_ alar rasu_li il lal bala_ghul mubin. (24:54)

Now, if we look at these Ayaat, we notice that Allah has clearly pointed out the duty of the Messenger, i.e. that he must DELIVER the Clarity <Balaghul Mubeen. We have seen that the Clarity or the Message of the Messenger is the Quraan. Here we will look at another important term used in the Quraan. This term is Balagha, meaning the reaching, or delivery of the Messenger.

The word Messenger is derived from the word Message. A Messenger delivers a Message. To Obey the Messenger would thus mean to obey the message he is delivering. We have seen in the previous chapters that the Messenger is teaching, preaching, explaining and living by the Quraan.

Here again we will see that his delivery <Balagha is the Quraan:

Here is the <haza is a delivery <balaghu for Humans; let them take warning therefrom, and let them know that He is One God; let the People of Understanding take heed (14:52)

This Ayah points to IT <haza, meaning THIS IS (pointing to the Quraan itself) is the delivery of the Messenger. This is further clarified in the following Ayah:

Before this We wrote in The Zabur, after the Zikar: My righteous servants shall inherit the earth. Verily in this is a message <Balaghan for the servants of Allah (21:105-106)

However, some people says that 21:106 is pointing to 21:105 and not to the Quraan. They still have no answer to 14:52. However, we will not pursue this further as Allah does not leave His Message to speculation, but He Defines what He means. Let us continue to read the Quraan:

O Messenger! Proclaim <Baligh what is sent down to you <ma Unzila Ilaika from your Lord. If you do not, you would not have fulfilled and proclaimed His message: and Allah will defend you from people. For Allah Guides not those who Reject (5:67)

Here the Balagh is defined as that which is being sent down on the Prophet from Allah <unzila. We have seen in the previous chapters what was being sent down was nothing but the Quraan. However, a sick heart might still insist that there was EXTRA something that was sent down and that EXTRA something is in the Hadith books. Thus we continue to read the next Ayah after 5:67, where Allah further explains the nature of what was being sent down:

Say: O people of the Book! You have no grounds to stand upon unless you stand fast by The Torah and The Injeel and all the rest that has come down to you from your Lord. It is what is SENT DOWN to you that increases in most of them their obstinate blasphemy. But sorrow you not over people without faith (5:68)

Here what is being sent down on the Prophet is compared with the Torah and the Injeel, i.e. it is the Quraan. It is further explained that Allah has sent down<anzala the Book with the Prophets:Mankind was one single nation, and Allah established Prophets giving glad tidings and warnings, and with them He sent down <anzala The Book in Truth. (2:213)

It is He Who sent down <nazala to you, in Truth, the Book (3:3).

But people say that not only the Book was sent down but also an EXTRA revelation known as al-Hikma (The Wisdom) was also sent down. They site some Ayaat from the Quraan to this effect. One of them is related here:

For Allah has sent down <anzala to you the Book and the Wisdom and taught you what you knew not (4:113)

We will, inshaAllah deal with Al-Hikma later in another chapter. But for now, we will site a couple of Quraanic Ayaat to show that the Book is INCLUSIVE of the Hikmah, and the Al-Hikma that is being sent down is the Quraan:

Those who conceal what Allah has sent down<anzala in the Book , and purchase for them a miserable profit - they swallow into themselves nothing but fire; Allah will not address them on the Day of Resurrection, nor purify them : grievous will be their penalty (2:174)

Here we notice that the warning is ONLY given for concealing the Book, and not the Hikmah. Does this mean that those who conceal the Hikmah in the books of Hadith will not be punished No, but the answer is that The-Book is inclusive of the Hikmah and concealing the Book would automatically conceal the Hikmah.

Because Allah sent down<nazala the Book in Truth, but those who seek causes of dispute in the Book are in a schism far (2:176)

If Hikmah is separate from the Book, then it means that it would be ok to seek causes of dispute in the Hikmah as it is ONLY the Book that is mentioned above. Here, I digress. Let me get back to the word Balagha.

There is no point in dwelling on speculations when one has the weightiest evidence

Say: What thing is most weighty in Evidence Say: Allah is a Witness between me and you; this QURAAN has been revealed to me by inspiration that with it <BIHI I may warn you and all whom it reaches <BALAGHA (6:19)

Here the Messenger clearly establishes what his BALAGHA is It is the Quraan. Thus to insist without proof that the Messenger was supposed to deliver something else besides the Quraan is to oppose the Quranic verdict itself that he was to deliver the Message of the Quraan only.

But the argument does not end here. People point out that Obey Allah and Obey the Messenger should mean that obedience to the Messenger is separate from Obedience to Allah. This is absurd, as the Messenger does not have any authority except for the reason that he is SENT by Allah. Had Muhammad not been a Messenger of Allah would people obey him The answer is NO. Thus Obedience to the Prophet is BECAUSE he is the Messenger of Allah. Thus the two are NOT mutually exclusive obedience - one is highly dependent on the other. It is the same as saying eat an apple and eat its nutrition. Here is further Evidence from the Quraan that they are the same:

And an announcement from ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore, if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve (9:3)

Now, did the people hear Allah giving this announcement of immunity The answer is No!. It was only from the LIPS of His Messenger, Muhammad, that they heard this announcement of immunity. Yet it is supposed to come from both Allah and His Messenger. Or do people think that one announcement came from Allah and ANOTHER came from the Messenger Allah does not speak to all the people. What He does is that He chooses a human being as His instrument and communicates through that instrument.

Who among the companions of the Prophet ever heard any of Allahs commandments from Allah DIRECTLY NONE!. How can they OBEY Allah then In that case, according to your twisted logic all Allah had to do was say Obey the Messenger as it is ONLY through the LIPS of the Messenger that they are hearing the Quraan.

The following Ayah again establishes that Obedience to Allah and His Messenger is ONE and the SAME thing:

O you who believe! Obey Allah and Obey the Messenger and do not turn back from HIM <anhu while you hear (8:20)

Here the believers are identified to be those who were listening to the Messenger who delivers the Quraanic laws to them, as the singular pronoun anhu (from him) indicates. This confirms that Allah and His Messenger are not two separate sources of law to be obeyed, but that the source of Divine law to be obeyed is ONLY Allah and ONLY the people are able to hear these divine laws through the LIPS of His Messenger.

Then peoples ignorance of the Quraan is further exposed when in desperation they site the examples of other Prophets like Nuh, Lut, Hud and Salih in the Quraan and say that in Ash Shuara ( Surah 26) people are commanded to obey these Prophets. People say that since these Prophets did not have a book, then to obey them would mean that obedience to Messenger is DIFFERENT from Obedience to Allah. The Quraan refutes this claim as I have shown above already. But in addition, the Quraan confirms that at each time in history Allah has given a Book. Either the Prophets themselves were given Books, or there already was a Book by a previous Prophet to which they were calling the people:

And those to whom We have given the Book rejoice in that which has been revealed to you, and of the confederates are some who deny a part of it. Say: I am only commanded that I should serve Allah and not associate anything with Him, to Him do I invite (you) and to Him is my return. And thus have We revealed it, a true judgment(HUKMAN) in Arabic, and if you follow their low desires after what has come to you of knowledge, you shall not have against Allah any guardian or a protector. We did send messengers before thee, and appointed for them wives and children: and it was never the part of a messenger to bring an Ayah except as Allah permitted (or commanded). For each PERIOD IS A BOOK (revealed). (13:36-38)

In no uncertain terms has Allah announced here that each Prophet had a Book in his time. Prophethood and Book is always tied together:

It is not (possible) that a man, to whom is given the Book, and Wisdom, and the prophetic office, should say to people: Be ye my slaves rather than Allah's: on the contrary (He would say) Be ye slaves of Him Who is truly the Cherisher of all: For ye have taught the Book and ye have studied it earnestly. (3:79)

This Ayah ties Prophethood to the Book. Otherwise, if we take the baseless claim that certain Prophets came without any Book then this Ayah would be limited Only to those Prophets who came with the Book, and therefore those Prophets who came without the Book can still tell people to be their slaves rather than Allahs Further the Quraan explicitly tells us that Allah gave the Book to Nuh and Lut and their Progeny:

We gave him Isaac and Jacob: all (three) guided; and before him, We guided NUH, and among his progeny, David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, and Aaron. Thus do We reward those who do good; and Zakariya and John, and Jesus and Elias: all in the ranks of the righteous. And Isma'il and Elisha, and Jonas, and LUT; and to all We gave favor above the nations. (To them) and to their fathers, and progeny and brethren: We chose them, and we guided them to a straight way. This is the guidance of Allah: He giveth that guidance to whom He pleases, of His worshippers. If they were to join other gods with Him, all that they did would be vain for them. These are they to whom We gave the BOOK and the wisdom and the prophecy; therefore if these disbelieve in it We have already entrusted with it a people who are not disbelievers in it (6:84-89)

And certainly We sent Nuh and Ibrahim and We gave to their offspring the (gift of) prophecy and the Book; so there are among them those who go aright, and most of them are transgressors (57:26)

The above Ayaat make it clear that ALL Prophets came with Allahs Message in some form of a Book, and that obedience to the Messenger is obedience to Allahs Words that the Messengers are delivering. Whether these words are preserved or not is another matter. But as far as the Quraan is concerned the Book has been recorded and preserved. And as I have shown before that the revelation delivered by the Prophet Muhammad was nothing but the Quraan, and therefore, to obey the Messenger we must obey the Quraan. Besides, the speculation that obedience to Allah and obedience to the Messenger are separate conflicts with the explicit Quraanic statement that Allah does NOT share anyone in His Law or Hukm:

Surely the Hukm (Law and Judgment) is for none but Allah (12:40)

He does not make anyone His associate in His Hukm (Law and Judgment) (18:26)

The Messenger himself is made to testify that the Law and the Judgment is only from Allah as revealed through the Messenger in His Book:

Shall I seek a Law-giver other than Allah When He it is Who has revealed to you the Book distinctly elucidated. (6:114)

Thus, the proponents of Hadith are only relying on conjecture when they say that obey the Messenger means to obey EXTRA commandments outside of the Quraan; they have no evidence from the Quraan to back up this claim - only conjecture:

Most of them follow nothing but conjecture: truly conjecture can be of no avail against truth. Verily Allah is well aware of all that they do. (10:36)
In confronting the Sunni and Shia sectarians who claim to be affiliated with God’s great system of submission “Islam,” the topic that most comes up is the one about “obeying God and obeying the messenger.”

While the sects reluctantly acknowledge that the Quran is fully detailed and complete as God has said it is (see 6:114-115, 11:1, 16:89), they quickly point to the many verses in the Quran which speak of “obeying God and obeying the messenger” and point out that such verses clearly mean there are two sources of information to be followed: “Obey God” meaning the Quran, and “Obey the Messenger” meaning the Hadith.

“O you who believe, obey God and His messenger, and do not turn away from him while you have heard.” (8:20)

“Say: ‘Obey God and the messenger.’ But if they turn away, then God does not like the rejecters.” (3:32)

“And obey God and obey the messenger, and be aware. If you turn away then know that it is the duty of the messenger to deliver the clarity.” (5:92)

“And obey God and His messenger, and do not dispute else you will fail and your momentum will depart, and be patient. God is with the patient ones.” (8:46)

“Say: “Obey God, and obey the messenger.” But if they turn away, then he is only responsible for his obligation, and you are responsible for your obligations. And if you obey him, you will be guided. The messenger is only required to deliver clearly.” (24:54)

“O you who believe, obey God, and obey the messenger. And do not render your work in vain.” (47:33)

“Obey God and obey the messenger. And if you turn away, then it is only required of Our messenger to deliver clearly.” (64:12)

At first glance, the argument of the sects seems somewhat convincing, for surely if God had meant for us to simply follow the Quran He would have only need said “obey God” and that would have been sufficient. However, by God adding “and obey the messenger” the claim seems to have some support.

In verse 4:59 below we see the case for the sects further strengthened as the believers are told to “obey God” and “obey the messenger” and “obey those in authority” (seems to be 3 separate entities), however, if they dispute in any matter they shall ignore the opinion of “those in authority” and simply revert back to God and His messenger:

“O you who believe, obey God and obey the messenger, and those in authority amongst you. But if you dispute in any matter, then you shall refer it to God and His messenger if you believe in God and the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for knowing.” (4:59)

What has been presented thus far is the logic of the sects in justifying the opening of their Pandora’s Box where the definition of “what” the messenger delivered becomes a treasure hunt through the hundreds of thousands of old wives tales and stories all attributed to the messenger doing or saying something.

Is the Quran complete or not?

“Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this Scripture fully detailed?” Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.” (6:114)

“And the word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.” (6:115)

This is now the question that is faced by all those who believe in the authority of the Quran alone. How can the Quran claim to be complete and detailed and yet, it refers to a source outside of itself?

Obey God and obey the messenger?

The answer for this entire issue is found once again in the Quran itself:

“Whoever obeys the messenger has obeyed God; and whoever turns away, We have not sent you as a guardian over them. “ (4:80)

While this may come as a shock to the sects, it is a natural answer for students of Quran who know and believe the word of God to be detailed and complete. We are told in no uncertain terms that whoever has “obeyed the messenger” has automatically met the requirement of “obeying God” (i.e. the two commands are one in the same).

A little thought by the sects would have led them to the same conclusion, for, after all, the Quran was never revealed to us by God directly, but was done through His inspiration to His messenger (i.e. the messenger, God, and the Quran are inseparable).

There is no external text to be sought; no Hadiths…There is only the words that the messenger delivered while being inspired by God.

What did the messenger deliver?

Now we have narrowed down our search to just one element which was delivered by both God and His messenger.

Is that one element the Quran?

Is that one element the Hadith?

Again, we will look to the words of God and His messenger for the answer:

“Say: “Which is the greatest testimony?” Say: “God is witness between me and you, and He has inspired to me this Qur’an that I may warn you with it and whomever it reaches, that you bear witness that along with God are other gods!” Say: “I do not bear witness!” Say: “He is only One god, and I am innocent of what you set up!” (6:19)

“And when Our clear revelations are recited to them, those who do not wish to meet Us said: “Bring a Qur’an other than this, or change it!” Say: “It is not for me to change it of my own accord, I merely follow what is inspired to me. I fear, if I disobey my Lord, the retribution of a great day!” (10:15)

Can it be any clearer than that? The messenger delivered the Quran and nothing but the Quran.

Let us remain true to the commands of God by obeying His messenger in that which he delivered, and not be like those who turned away and will be denied by the messenger himself on the day of days:

“And the messenger said: ‘My Lord, my people have deserted this Qur’an.’” (25:30)
Well, I hope that's enough.

There are many other reasons why I refuse to follow the hadith, such as the hadith that slander the prophet (S) and his companions, prophets like Musa (AHS), Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her), etc. And all of these are present in Sahih Bukhari and Muslim, the most "authentic" source of authority of Islam.

The noble Quran condemns following anyone blindly (2:170; 5:50,104; 10:78, 100; 17:36; 26:74; 31:21; 43:22,23).
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
10-24-2008, 10:15 AM
:sl:
Originally Posted by Hawa
It's a book written by an apostate and praised by Daniel Pipes of all the devils..here's a Wikipedia ink, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_I_Am_Not_a_Muslim
I just wanted to know if there's anyone here who's read it and what their thoughts were...
meh, cant that that good :X
Reply

doorster
10-24-2008, 10:15 AM
Originally Posted by The Khan
Really? If so, I have a question: Why is that, until Caliph Umar II, the 11th Caliph, all the previous Caliphs has absolutely forbidden any compilation of the Qur'an? Abu Bakr, Umar I, Uthman, Ali, Muawiya, even Yazid forbade compilation of hadith!



I shall quote this long line of text from another website explaining my view, as I don't have the energy to type so much today (sickness).
Well, I hope that's enough.

There are many other reasons why I refuse to follow the hadith, such as the hadith that slander the prophet (S) and his companions, prophets like Musa (AHS), Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her), etc. And all of these are present in Sahih Bukhari and Muslim, the most "authentic" source of authority of Islam.

The noble Quran condemns following anyone blindly (2:170; 5:50,104; 10:78, 100; 17:36; 26:74; 31:21; 43:22,23).
Mr. the khan, I'll reply to you when Br. Woodrow comes online.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
10-24-2008, 10:19 AM
what?> lol ! umar radhiallahu anhu, the third khalifa approached abu bakr radhiallahu anhu with concerns in regards to writing down the mushaf so that everyone knows that the Quran only has one authentic copy !


about the forbidding writing down of the hadith

bro this should settle ALL DOUBTS:



Writing Down the Hadith
In Hadith literature, there are hadiths that forbid and others that permit the writing down of hadiths, which often causes a confusion for some people.

Prophet Muhammad once said,

"Do not write from me anything except the Qur'an and whosoever has written anything from me other than the Qur'an should erase it." (Al-Bukhari)


There is evidence that Prophet Muhammad approved of writing down his hadiths.
By this hadith Prophet Muhammad actually meant that nothing should be written with the Qur'an on the same sheet, as this might lead to mixing the text of the Qur'an with that of the Hadith. This command was given when the Qur'an was being revealed piecemeal and was still incomplete.


Another interpretation of the hadith is that it was forbidden to write down hadiths in early days because all attention was to be paid to the Qur'an and its preservation.

Then later on, when there was no fear of abandoning the Qur'an, the previous order was abrogated and the Companions were permitted to write down hadiths. On the other hand, there is evidence that Prophet Muhammad approved of writing down his hadiths.

Many Companions recorded hadiths. For example, `Abdullah ibn `Amr was permitted and even encouraged by Prophet Muhammad to write down Hadith. In addition, some 50 Companions and many followers are said to have possessed manuscripts (sahifah, Arabic plural suhuf), which was used as a term to designate compendia of Hadith that emerged during the century before the formation of the classical collections.

The original manuscripts have been lost, but a very few copies have survived. An example is the manuscript of Hammam ibn Munabbih, who learned from Abu Hurairah and from him he wrote his manuscript which contains 138 hadiths. This manuscript is believed to have been written down around the middle of the first century after the Hijrah (seventh century CE).

In the beginning of the second Hijri century, during the reign of `Umar ibn `Abdul-`Aziz, the texts of Hadith were committed to writing. The Sunnah was collected in Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Yemen, and Khurasan. Leading theologians uttered some statements warning against unscrupulous reporters and their unreliable reports.

Imam Malikwas the first to undertake the comprehensive and systematic compilation of Hadith. His work is known as Al-Muwatta' (The Trodden Path). Later, other compilations came into existence.

In this regard, it is important to note that there are two kinds of compilations: musnad and musannaf. In musnad collections, hadiths are arranged alphabetically under the names of the Companions on whose authority these hadiths were reported. An example of this kind is the Musnad of Ibn Hanbal .

In musannaf collections, hadiths are recorded under various headings dealing with juridical subjects such as the compilations of Al-Bukhari , Muslim, An-Nasa'i, Abu Dawud, At-Tirmidhi, and Ibn Majah .



http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/...am%2FDIELayout
Reply

The Khan
10-24-2008, 10:57 AM
Brothers, I don't wish to argue regarding this. I've come to a conclusion after many months of research. I consider the Qur'an as detailed and complete, which has absolutely forbidden any other hadeeth. Please don't try and convince me to your sectarianism, for I've no desire to belong to any sect.

Such are the Signs of God, which We rehearse to thee in Truth; then in what HADEETH will they believe after God and His Signs? (Quran 45.6)

Do they see nothing in the government of the heavens and the earth and all that God hath created? (Do they not see) that it may well be that their terms is nigh drawing to an end? In what HADEETH after this will they then believe? (Quran 7.185)

Then what HADEETH after that, will they believe in? (Quran 77.50)

God has revealed the most beautiful HADEETH (Quran 39.23)

Btw, Mz, I'd like to mention that the hadith in your signature is from At-Tirmidhi, which is considered the weakest of the 6 Sunni compilations. If prophet Muhammed (S) surely allowed us to compile his Sunnah without corruption, he would have allowed so in his lifetime.

I'm sorry, I hope you don't consider my post as attacking the prophet and his sunnah, I just consider the compilations which started with Bukhari as corrupt. I don't know whether or not the compilations done during Umar II's lifetime were authentic or not.

Peace.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
10-24-2008, 11:00 AM
Originally Posted by The Khan
Btw, Mz, I'd like to mention that the hadith in your signature is from At-Tirmidhi, which is considered the weakest of the 6 Sunni compilations.

Peace.
that doesnt change the fact that at-tirmizi (rahimahullah) documented many saheeh ahadeeth
Reply

Brother_Mujahid
10-24-2008, 11:20 AM
Originally Posted by Mz
that doesnt change the fact that at-tirmizi (rahimahullah) documented many saheeh ahadeeth
correct

The reason why bukhari and muslim are seen more 'authentic' is because they focusssed on compiling and collecting the most authentic hadith.

Whereas some of the other hadith compilers would collect hadith which were not all saheeh.

The reason some fabricated or weak hadith were recorded was so that it would be known.

Thank you
Reply

The Khan
10-24-2008, 11:24 AM
Well, see, that's the problem....I've come accross weak hadith in Bukhari and Muslim too, hence I don't want anything to do with these innovations.

Can anyone give me links to Shi'a and Ibadi hadith? I want to read their hadith before making a final decision.
Reply

SixTen
10-24-2008, 11:28 AM
The Khan, where are you getting those Qur'an translations from? They are incorrect. Please source them.

Regarding 77:50

In what discourse, then, after this, namely, the Qur’ān, will they believe? In other words, they cannot believe in any other of God’s Scriptures after having denied this [Qur’ān], since it comprises that inimitability (i‘jāz) which none of the others do.
It is not talking about hadiths, it is directed at the other scriptures which people claim to be from God - which obviously does not equal the hadiths. Infact, all of those translations, DO NOT talk about hadiths - you have got those from an anti-hadith website.
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
10-24-2008, 11:31 AM
Well, see, that's the problem....I've come accross weak hadith in Bukhari and Muslim too, hence I don't want anything to do with these innovations.
what are you talking about^o) who gives you the authority to 'grade' hadiths to begin with :mad:
my god, you need some next level knowledge to do that.
Reply

SixTen
10-24-2008, 11:36 AM
Are your materials from ----------------? I should note they are not an authentic representation of Islam.
Reply

The Khan
10-24-2008, 11:39 AM
I haven't. Sunni scholars have.

Well, I've already made it clear that the reason I've rejected all 6 Sunni compilations is because there are Hadith which:

a) Slander Allah (SWT)

b) Slander Muhammed (S)

c) Slander Musa (AHS)

d) Slander the wives of prophet Muhammed (S)

e) Slander the Sahaba

f) Are outrageous and make no sense

g) Introduced Bida'a innovations

h) Divided the Ummah into sects

i) Allowed clergical control over the Ummah

If I come accross just one hadith compilation which has not one hadith with these attributes, I shall accept it.

Well, then again, like I said earlier, the Qur'an absolutely forbids hadith compilations.
Reply

maryam87
10-24-2008, 11:41 AM
Originally Posted by The Khan
I haven't. Sunni scholars have.

Well, I've already made it clear that the reason I've rejected all 6 Sunni compilations is because there are Hadith which:

a) Slander Allah (SWT)

b) Slander Muhammed (S)

c) Slander Musa (AHS)

d) Slander the wives of prophet Muhammed (S)

e) Slander the Sahaba

f) Are outrageous and make no sense

g) Introduced Bida'a innovations

h) Divided the Ummah into sects

i) Allowed clergical control over the Ummah

If I come accross just one hadith compilation which has not one hadith with these attributes, I shall accept it.

Well, then again, like I said earlier, the Qur'an absolutely forbids hadith compilations.
give examples of each plz, and if they are weak hadith then dont mention it
Reply

SixTen
10-24-2008, 11:43 AM
His materials seem to be from ----------------, which is very similar to the lies created by submitters.org against the hadiths. Their misunderstanding of hadiths, they represent as facts. You can read www.---------------- for an idea.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
10-24-2008, 11:44 AM
LOL mr khan, you have been greatly mislead!


you need to provide proof now, spread the your version of the truth to us. let us see what you've been reading !
Reply

maryam87
10-24-2008, 11:46 AM
Originally Posted by mz
lol mr khan, you have been greatly mislead!


You need to provide proof now, spread the your version of the truth to us. Let us see what you've been reading !
agree
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
10-24-2008, 11:48 AM
Originally Posted by The Khan
I haven't. Sunni scholars have.

Well, I've already made it clear that the reason I've rejected all 6 Sunni compilations is because there are Hadith which:

a) Slander Allah (SWT)

b) Slander Muhammed (S)

c) Slander Musa (AHS)

d) Slander the wives of prophet Muhammed (S)

e) Slander the Sahaba

f) Are outrageous and make no sense

g) Introduced Bida'a innovations

h) Divided the Ummah into sects

i) Allowed clergical control over the Ummah

If I come accross just one hadith compilation which has not one hadith with these attributes, I shall accept it.

Well, then again, like I said earlier, the Qur'an absolutely forbids hadith compilations.
the hadith are a compilation of the Prophet (sallalahu aleyhi wa sallams) words/actions, hence why on earth would he slander Allah, himself, :muddlehea, his companions...

Well, then again, like I said earlier, the Qur'an absolutely forbids hadith compilations.
where...


Introduced Bida'a innovations
how do you know bidah exists :? where does the quran mention it. as far as i know, only the hadith mention innvoations...i.e one would only believe that innovations exist through the hadiths..but you reject them, so how do you know about innovations?
Reply

The Khan
10-24-2008, 12:37 PM
I admit, a lot of my info is from free-minds.

Unfortunately, my Hadith software is not re-installing (the one from Islamosoft solutions), error 1331 (I hate windows...) so I'll have to copy paste from online -

Slandering Allah (SWT) -
"The parchment that the verse about stoning to death for adultery was written on was eaten and abrogated by a goat." (Ibni Majah 36/1944; Ibni Hanbal 3/61; 5/131,132,183; 6/269).
God is the time" (Muwatta 56/3).
"To prove His identity, God opened his legs and showed the prophet His thigh." (Bukhary 97/24, 10/129 and the comment on the Sura 68.)

Slandering Muhammed (S) -

"The Prophet never urinated in standing position" (Hanbel 6/136,192,213).
"The prophet urinated in standing position" (Bukhary 4/60,62).
"A group from the Ureyneh and Uqayleh tribes came to the prophet and the prophet advised them to drink urine of camels. Later on, when they killed the prophet's shepherd, the prophet seized them, gouged out their eyes, cut their hands and legs, and left them thirsty in the desert" (Bukhary 56/152, Hanbel 3/107,163).
"I am the most honorable messenger, on the day of the judgment only I will think of my people" (Bukhary 97/36).
"Do not make any distinction among the messengers; I am not even better than Jonah" (Bukhary 65/4,5; Hanbel 1/205,242,440).
"The prophet gave permission to kill children and women in war" (Bukhari, Jihad/146; Ebu Davud 113).
"When the prophet died his armor had been pawned to a Jew for several pounds of barley." (Bukhari 34/14,33,88; Hanbal 1/ 300; 6/42,160,230).
"The prophet had been bewitched by a Jew, and for several days he did not know what he was doing" (Bukhari 59/11; 76/47; Hanbel 6/57; 4/367).
"Muhammad possessed sexual power of 30 men" (Bukhary).

I would go into more, but I'd rather not as a friend of mine has come to visit me.

To end it;

"The prophet said:'Do not write anything from me except the Quran. Whoever wrote, must destroy it" (Muslim, Zuhd 72; Hanbel 3/12,21,39).
"The prophet ordered Amr Ibn As to write everything that he speaks" (Hanbel 2/162).
"Omar said: Quran is enough for us, do not write anything from the prophet" (Bukhary, Jihad 176, Gizya 6, Ilim 49, Marza 17, Megazi 83, Itisam 26; Muslim, Vasiyya 20,21,22).

God revealed the Quran to Muhammad, His messenger and last prophet (27:6).
The only book that the messenger delivered to the world is the Quran (6:19).
The sole mission of the messenger is to deliver the message (16:35).
We must obey God's messengers (3:31-32; 24:56). Anyone who disobeys God and His messenger is a disbeliever (72:23).
We have been commanded to follow the Quran alone (7:2-3; 17:46).
The Quran contains everything that we need for guidance (16:89).
God did not leave anything out of the Quran (6:38).
Wisdom (hikmah) is in God's Quran; not necessarily in men's hadith (17:39; 36:2).
Anything that is not commanded in the Quran, God left it up to our minds and intelligence to decide (5:101).
The Prophet Abraham was the founder of Islam and a good example for us (22:78; 2:135; 60:4).
Muhammad was the follower of Abraham (3:68; 16:123).
All religious practices; daily prayers, obligatory charity, fasting, and pilgrimage come through Abraham (21:73; 2:43,127-128; 2:183; 3:43; 19:31-59; 20:14).
We should not follow any hadith besides the Quran as the source of God's religion (45:6).
There are those who use vain hadith to mislead people, without knowledge (31:6).
We do not need fabricated hadith, because the Quran is fully detailed (12:111).
The best hadith is the Quran (39:23).
The only sunnah (law) is God's sunnah (33:38,62; 35:43).
Those who decree religious laws never authorized by God, and their followers, are idol worshipers (42:21).
The Quran is fully detailed, not vague (30:28; 41:3).
Quran has been explained and detailed by God Himself (11:1; 75:19).
God is the teacher of the Quran (55:1).
The Quran is easy to understand for believers; while it is impossible for idol worshipers (54:17,22,32,40; 17:46; 18:57).
The Prophet Muhammad, as a good example, did not accept and follow any other source besides the Quran (5:48-49; 6:114; 10:15).
God guaranteed the preservation of the Quran, not the hadith (15:9; 36:69; 38:87; 41:42; 43:4; 56:78).
God's word is perfect (6:115). Those who follow conjecture are diverted (6:112).
God does not forget (19:64).
God does not run out of words (18:109).
Those who are not certain about the hereafter, are not satisfied with the Quran, they want to amend it with other books (10:15).
Those who divide their religion into sects are not followers of Muhammad (6:159).
The complaint of the messenger in the hereafter will be about the desertion of the Quran, not hadith (25:30).

Anyway, like I said earlier, I don't want to argue, I'm a free thinker, not a blind follower of Abu Hanifa or any other Imam.
Reply

maryam87
10-24-2008, 12:51 PM
i have to admit brother i feel soo sorry for u
you have lost the plot or more like ur mind
Reply

SixTen
10-24-2008, 01:40 PM
Originally Posted by The Khan
I admit, a lot of my info is from free-minds.

Unfortunately, my Hadith software is not re-installing (the one from Islamosoft solutions), error 1331 (I hate windows...) so I'll have to copy paste from online -

Slandering Allah (SWT) -
"The parchment that the verse about stoning to death for adultery was written on was eaten and abrogated by a goat." (Ibni Majah 36/1944; Ibni Hanbal 3/61; 5/131,132,183; 6/269).
God is the time" (Muwatta 56/3).
"To prove His identity, God opened his legs and showed the prophet His thigh." (Bukhary 97/24, 10/129 and the comment on the Sura 68.)

Slandering Muhammed (S) -

"The Prophet never urinated in standing position" (Hanbel 6/136,192,213).
"The prophet urinated in standing position" (Bukhary 4/60,62).
"A group from the Ureyneh and Uqayleh tribes came to the prophet and the prophet advised them to drink urine of camels. Later on, when they killed the prophet's shepherd, the prophet seized them, gouged out their eyes, cut their hands and legs, and left them thirsty in the desert" (Bukhary 56/152, Hanbel 3/107,163).
"I am the most honorable messenger, on the day of the judgment only I will think of my people" (Bukhary 97/36).
"Do not make any distinction among the messengers; I am not even better than Jonah" (Bukhary 65/4,5; Hanbel 1/205,242,440).
"The prophet gave permission to kill children and women in war" (Bukhari, Jihad/146; Ebu Davud 113).
"When the prophet died his armor had been pawned to a Jew for several pounds of barley." (Bukhari 34/14,33,88; Hanbal 1/ 300; 6/42,160,230).
"The prophet had been bewitched by a Jew, and for several days he did not know what he was doing" (Bukhari 59/11; 76/47; Hanbel 6/57; 4/367).
"Muhammad possessed sexual power of 30 men" (Bukhary).

I would go into more, but I'd rather not as a friend of mine has come to visit me.

To end it;

"The prophet said:'Do not write anything from me except the Quran. Whoever wrote, must destroy it" (Muslim, Zuhd 72; Hanbel 3/12,21,39).
"The prophet ordered Amr Ibn As to write everything that he speaks" (Hanbel 2/162).
"Omar said: Quran is enough for us, do not write anything from the prophet" (Bukhary, Jihad 176, Gizya 6, Ilim 49, Marza 17, Megazi 83, Itisam 26; Muslim, Vasiyya 20,21,22).

God revealed the Quran to Muhammad, His messenger and last prophet (27:6).
The only book that the messenger delivered to the world is the Quran (6:19).
The sole mission of the messenger is to deliver the message (16:35).
We must obey God's messengers (3:31-32; 24:56). Anyone who disobeys God and His messenger is a disbeliever (72:23).
We have been commanded to follow the Quran alone (7:2-3; 17:46).
The Quran contains everything that we need for guidance (16:89).
God did not leave anything out of the Quran (6:38).
Wisdom (hikmah) is in God's Quran; not necessarily in men's hadith (17:39; 36:2).
Anything that is not commanded in the Quran, God left it up to our minds and intelligence to decide (5:101).
The Prophet Abraham was the founder of Islam and a good example for us (22:78; 2:135; 60:4).
Muhammad was the follower of Abraham (3:68; 16:123).
All religious practices; daily prayers, obligatory charity, fasting, and pilgrimage come through Abraham (21:73; 2:43,127-128; 2:183; 3:43; 19:31-59; 20:14).
We should not follow any hadith besides the Quran as the source of God's religion (45:6).
There are those who use vain hadith to mislead people, without knowledge (31:6).
We do not need fabricated hadith, because the Quran is fully detailed (12:111).
The best hadith is the Quran (39:23).
The only sunnah (law) is God's sunnah (33:38,62; 35:43).
Those who decree religious laws never authorized by God, and their followers, are idol worshipers (42:21).
The Quran is fully detailed, not vague (30:28; 41:3).
Quran has been explained and detailed by God Himself (11:1; 75:19).
God is the teacher of the Quran (55:1).
The Quran is easy to understand for believers; while it is impossible for idol worshipers (54:17,22,32,40; 17:46; 18:57).
The Prophet Muhammad, as a good example, did not accept and follow any other source besides the Quran (5:48-49; 6:114; 10:15).
God guaranteed the preservation of the Quran, not the hadith (15:9; 36:69; 38:87; 41:42; 43:4; 56:78).
God's word is perfect (6:115). Those who follow conjecture are diverted (6:112).
God does not forget (19:64).
God does not run out of words (18:109).
Those who are not certain about the hereafter, are not satisfied with the Quran, they want to amend it with other books (10:15).
Those who divide their religion into sects are not followers of Muhammad (6:159).
The complaint of the messenger in the hereafter will be about the desertion of the Quran, not hadith (25:30).

Anyway, like I said earlier, I don't want to argue, I'm a free thinker, not a blind follower of Abu Hanifa or any other Imam.
But you seem to blind follow, free-minds, judging by your stubborn stance. Did you even cross reference the material with any scholarly work? No, why? Because, what you had read, you was content with. This, as you know, is not a authentic process in judging whats correct/incorrect.

The sheer out of context, and some translation errors, of those hadiths - just goes to show, you wasn't prepared to do any research. You just came across something you liked, and accepted it as a reliable authentic representation of Islam.

From your stance, people like Abu Hanfia, etc, where all wrong, they did mass haram - they went against Qur'an. Yet this guy, who isn't a scholar, who wrote that site, somehow, is superior in knowledge of the Qur'an and sunnah, more than any scholar of the past? Please, before you commit to such slanderous liars, research properly.
Reply

The Khan
10-24-2008, 02:30 PM
SixTen, I agree with you. My research on Qur'an alone has recently started as of the past few days. I'm doing my own research based on their statements. I've rejected some of their claims (such as the anti-hijab claim), but accepted many others.

Now, reason I don't like Abu Hanifa (my own research) is:

- He allowed alcohol which is not made of dates or grapes, in moderation. Later Hanafi scholars canceled this.

- He disallowed eating of any seafood that does not have gills, which completely goes against the Qur'an.

- If a man leaves his wife and disappears, Abu Hanifa said that she must wait 80 years for a divorce.

Like I said earlier, I'm following my own path. I'm not judging anyone else, so why does everyone judge me? I'm following my heart. How one practices his religion is between him and God (SWT) alone or whatever higher authority he believes in. Nobody has the right to say he's wrong or right. Have I ever said you're wrong? I merely stated I don't belong to any sect. Then, I was accused for being a follower of the fake prophet. Then, I was accused of being wrong, and that what you believe in is my only path to true salvation.

Think about it. Do you all have divine authority to say I'm wrong and you're right? Do I have divine authority to say I'm right and you're wrong?

Peace.
Reply

SixTen
10-24-2008, 02:38 PM
You are not qualified to do your "own" thing, islamically, is why people are trying to help you. You can't make judgements on what the Qur'an or sunnah says, as a layman, and neither do I.

I just know, those guys on free-minds, are as layman as you or me - they are not scholars.

In the end, I don't know where you sourced that information about Abu Hanifa - but it seems to be from some shia site (they usually make many claims against him, even that other imaams such as Malik labelled him dajaal) - they seem purely fabricated or out of context accusations.

Just keep away from DIY scholarship, you just end up misguided - if everyone was like you - no 2 muslims would be the same, everyone would believe differently.
Reply

Al-Zaara
10-24-2008, 02:44 PM
Originally Posted by The Khan
SixTen, I agree with you. My research on Qur'an alone has recently started as of the past few days. I'm doing my own research based on their statements.
Originally Posted by The Khan
Brothers, I don't wish to argue regarding this. I've come to a conclusion after many months of research. I consider the Qur'an as detailed and complete, which has absolutely forbidden any other hadeeth.
So what exactly were you reasearching months of times, which you stated earlier, if not the Qur'an?
Reply

The Khan
10-24-2008, 02:46 PM
The noble Quran condemns following anyone blindly (2:170; 5:50,104; 10:78, 100; 17:36; 26:74; 31:21; 43:22,23).

Lol, I haven't come across any information on Abu Hanifa on any Shi'a site (aren't you being a Shiaphobe right now brother?), apart from one confirming popular Sunni belief that he was a student of Ja'far al-Sadiq. What I said is an undisputed source from Hanafis. It's on wikipedia, of course, first source I could find. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanafi#..._Hanafi_School

And that's good if everyone thinks differently. Allah (SWT) has commanded it. Allah (SWT) has given me a brain, and I shall use it.

@Al-Zaara: Both, the Qur'an and Hadith. My research is not complete. It's this free thinking belief which I've adopted recently and researching hadith rejection. I haven't completely rejected hadith yet, as I said, I'm reading a Shi'a hadith compilation right now. ^_^

Peace.
Reply

Al-Zaara
10-24-2008, 02:51 PM
Shaykh Wiki! The all-knower of the Hanafi-fiqh. And that part, hasn't even sources! How reliable.

Originally Posted by The Khan
And that's good if everyone thinks differently. Allah (SWT) has commanded it. Allah (SWT) has given me a brain, and I shall use it.
Sects think differently. The Sunnis/Shias think differently. On some fiqh-points, madhabs think differently etc. There are many people who have thought differently and putten forth their thoughts, but you condemned it earlier here, saying it has caused division, bida etc. And now you consider it good?
Reply

The Khan
10-24-2008, 02:53 PM
Don't misunderstand my point, I'm against causing sectarian differences. What differences every single being has in philosophy is between him and Allah (SWT). It's when they believe they are right over others which I hate, and which causes divisions and barriers. Religion is a private affair.

While I believe it's ok to discuss your differences, imposing your creed on others without promoting free thinking is entirely wrong (in my opinion).
Reply

SixTen
10-24-2008, 02:56 PM
I wouldn't trust wikipedia, subsequent none of that was referenced properly... I am not a shiaphobe, but just go check answering-answer, on their book against the sunni's - you'll see what I am talking about.

Again brother, you are misquoting Quran verses (which is probably prohibited on this site). This is another problem with, the DIY style of learning - you learn it wrong.

None of those verses talk about, following a authoritative scholar to learn Islam (Which is actually not only advised, it is required, as DIY scholarship without qualification is haram).

I won't go through all the verses, (too time consuming), but lets take 2:170

And when it is said to them, the disbelievers, ‘Follow what God has revealed’, pertaining to affirmation of God’s Oneness and the good things that He has made lawful, they say, ‘No; but we follow what we found our fathers doing’, in the way of idol-worship, deeming unlawful the camel let loose, and [practising] the slitting of the camel’s ear (sc. bahīra). God says: What? (the hamza [of a-wa-law] is for repudiation), do they follow them, Even if their fathers do not understand anything, concerning religion, and they were not guided?, to the truth.
As you can see, it has nothing about following scholars.

I am not a scholar, but alhamdulillah I have learnt alot, but it was by means of scholars. May Allah guide you to the correct way.

(Those Quran-only muslims have an agenda I must say, that is, they are progressionists)

Also, it is DIY scholarship which causes secterianism - as everyone will have different opinions, if every layman was allowed to create a website to portray his/her belief - Islam would become 3984394 religions.
Reply

The Khan
10-24-2008, 02:59 PM
Brother, I don't want to argue. I have my own views and you have yours. Lets keep it at that. I'm not imposing my belief on you. I have valid reasons for rejecting hadith, like I said earlier. "Mistranslation" is the most common excuse Christians have for defending their scriptures, and I see the same with Hadith supporters. Personally, I don't care how you follow Islam. I'm learning to follow what I find correct.

Peace.
Reply

SixTen
10-24-2008, 03:04 PM
Originally Posted by The Khan
Brother, I don't want to argue. I have my own views and you have yours. Lets keep it at that. I'm not imposing my belief on you. I have valid reasons for rejecting hadith, like I said earlier. "Mistranslation" is the most common excuse Christians have for defending their scriptures, and I see the same with Hadith supporters. Personally, I don't care how you follow Islam. I'm learning to follow what I find correct.

Peace.

The problem is, you don't have valid reasons for rejecting hadiths (or, for your Qur'an verses, which are contradictive of authentic tafsirs). I will just leave you with a warning not to ever trust sites like free-minds, and hope Allah guides you away from the works of the shaytaan. Also, to label my refutations as mere "excuses" that can be compared to christians, is just appauling on your behalf.
Reply

chacha_jalebi
10-24-2008, 03:09 PM
now now lets not argue, we all love each other dont we.... dont we :( .... yes :D

so so any discussions about inter religion, take it to the comparitive section

as most of the posts show, the book is full of lies, upon misquotes and further lies, so to summarise its total crap :D

:threadclo
Reply

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