an upside down cross?

[Güven]

well this made me wonder what does an upside down cross signify?
and why is it shown here?
I always thought an reversed cross means something satanic?

[Re.TiReD]

The one in the background? Allahu A'lam

[Güven]

yep :bump:

[FatimaAsSideqah]

Yeah I thought about that too might be linked to Satanic something. I don't know! Lol

Or maybe should be put other way to turn up

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[Güven]

its a seat ?

[UmmSqueakster]

The upside down cross is the cross of Saint Peter. Peter was crucified upside down. Peter was the first pope. Thus, the pope sometimes uses the cross of Saint Peter.

[FatimaAsSideqah]

Ah I see! Jazaak'Allah Khair sis Janaan

Interesting.

[Kas1m]

or maybe the pope wishes to be as close to the cross as possible so thats why he moved it down

[Güven]

The upside down cross is the cross of Saint Peter. Peter was crucified upside down. Peter was the first pope. Thus, the pope sometimes uses the cross of Saint Peter.

JazakAllahu Khair ...uhm but isnt an upside down cross also an satanic thing? :X

[UmmSqueakster]

JazakAllahu Khair ...uhm but isnt an upside down cross also an satanic thing? :X

Perhaps satanists took the symbol later, but it was the symbol of Saint Peter long before it was ever anything nefarious.

[Re.TiReD]

The upside down cross is the cross of Saint Peter. Peter was crucified upside down. Peter was the first pope. Thus, the pope sometimes uses the cross of Saint Peter.

Oh, JazakAllah khayr for that sis

[Güven]

oh wait i think this explains a lil

The Cross of St. Peter (officially known as the Petrine Cross or colloquially Peter's Cross) is an inverted Latin cross. The origin of this symbol comes from the Catholic tradition that St. Peter was crucified upside down, as he felt he was unworthy to be crucified in the same manner that Christ died (upright). It is often used with two keys, symbolizing the keys of heaven.

The Alexandrian scholar Origen is the first to report that St. Peter was crucified head downward, for he had asked that he might suffer in this way. Some Catholics use this cross as a symbol of humility and unworthiness in comparison to Christ.

It is also often associated with Satanism and anti-religious attitudes, as it is seen to represent the opposite of Christianity by inverting its primary symbol, the Latin Cross. As a result, this symbol has become very popular within anti-religion groups and among some black metal musicians.

During the late Pope John Paul II's visit to Israel, a picture of him with a backdrop of St. Peter's cross was widely circulated on the Internet, propagating the belief of some that the Catholic Church is associated with Satanism. In fact the photograph is related to the Catholic tradition that St. Peter was martyred in Rome (and as Catholic tradition views the Pope as the successor of Peter, it is a logical symbol for the Roman Pontiff). The inverted cross is also one of the traditional symbols used by Petrine Orthodox Sebomenoi.

Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_of_St._Peter

[FatimaAsSideqah]

Interesting to read. But why he has to be suffered? :-\

[The Khan]

Saint Peter was not the first pope. Only in theory. The post of pope is a continuation of the Roman religious seat of authority pontifex maximus. Many famous Romans were pontifex maximus, such as Julius Caesar and Augustus.

[barney]

It's generally considered Satanic. Which I'm sure the protestants would agree with.

[Amadeus85]

I guess that this pic might be made up, I have never seen it before. Its to controversial not to be noticed by someone from papal circles.

[Güven]

^they are many pics of it ...uhmm i dont know

[Trumble]

I guess that this pic might be made up, I have never seen it before. Its to controversial not to be noticed by someone from papal circles.

It's not 'controversial' at all. The cross of St Peter has frequently been used in connection with the Papacy, on thrones, in tombs and such, and was so used centuries before any satanic associations.

As with the swastika, the same symbol can mean vastly different things in different contexts.

[seeker-of-light]

oh i see then^_^what is the point of satanism anyways? i mean like...what do they believe in?:S why would anyone choose such a dark path?

[seeker-of-light]

It's not 'controversial' at all. The cross of St Peter has frequently been used in connection with the Papacy, on thrones, in tombs and such, and was so used centuries before any satanic associations.

As with the swastika, the same symbol can mean vastly different things in different contexts.

yes like in hinduism it means good luck. but to the nazis, it was anti-jewish.

[The Khan]

oh i see then^_^what is the point of satanism anyways? i mean like...what do they believe in?:S why would anyone choose such a dark path?

Satanism, as in the LaVey Satanic church, is basically an atheist organisation which is severely anti-Christian. They have a lot of weird satanic-like rituals which are just a show for their own amusement. There aren't any true Satanists, at least not in even significant small numbers.

The Swastika and the cross have the same origin. To the Nazis, it did not mean anti-semitism, but was borrowed from Aryan (North Indian, Iran) culture. It was a symbol of "aryan pride" for them, and was used to justify their connections to the Vedic-Zoroastrian Aryans. It is also used by Tibetan and Mongolian Buddhists to some extent. I recall seeing a Buddha idol from Korea with a swastika on it too. Apart from Hindus, Zoroastrians, and Buddhists, it happens to be the main symbol for another religious group, the Jains. For them, it is their absolute main symbol, while for Hindus it is Om, for Zoroastrians it is the Faravahar, for Buddhists it's the Dharma wheel.

[Grace Seeker]

The Swastika and the cross have the same origin.

I'm not sure what you meant by that statement. I can't speak to the origins of the Swastika before Hitler appropriated it for his own uses. But I can speak a little bit to the cross.

The cross does have in common with the Swastika that it had a different origin that that for which it is most well known today, meaning that both are symbols appropriated by later groups who in essence changed their original meaning so that their present meaning has nothing to do with their original usage.

Originally, the cross was simply an instrument of torture. There was no symbolic meaning to the Roman's cross at all. Though their were other symbols looking very similar to a cross, such as an Egyptian ankh, there is no actual connection between the cross that Romans used as an instrument or torture and the Egyptian symbol which was originally a simple heiroglyph.

Romans did execution by crucifixion on a number of different structures. Sometimes just a single stake in the ground. Sometimes on a whole lattice frame with mutliple interwoven uprights and cross bars. And sometimes in a single upright with a single crossbar. In the latter case it was common for the uprights to be permament erected and for the condemned man to be asked to carry his own crossbar. According to the Gospel accounts, this appears to be the case with Jesus, so it gives us our best hint as to what the cross that Jesus was crucified on actually looked like.

Later, despite the reality that death by crucifixion was so horrific and scandalous that Roman citizens who were sentenced to death could request decapitation in order to avoid crucifixion, and that execution by crucifixion was generally reserved for the most heinous acts which threatened the state, usually crimes of sedition and insurrection -- despite all of this, early Christians continued to emphasize Jesus death on the cross as a key point of Christian theology. It expressed their belief in the grace of God and the atonement from sin which was realized by Jesus' sacrifice on a cross. For this reason the cross which had initially been understood only as an instrument of human torture became a symbol of divine love.

In time, as with all symbols, the symbol itself evolved taking on many forms. People would see it in the shape of an anchor, hence evolved the Anchor Cross. Others would see it in the four points of a compass or the letter "T". And so other shapes and patterns became accepted for a variety or different reasons, but the reason they were adopted was not to promote the original symbol, but because of the importance the story of the cross had developed within the theology of the Christian Church.

[The Khan]

Well, I mean in the religious sense.

True, Jesus (pbuh) was crucified on a cross, and it is used to denote that. It has a greater meaning, however.


The ankh, various crosses, swastika, 4 dots...all of these have existed since 10,000 BC. They all signify the winter solstice (around Dec 25th in the mediterranian), during which the Sun aligns with the crux constellation, and rises up by one degree after three days.

This process signified the when the sun's position in the sky was at the lowest position, signifying the process of death to the ancients. Hence, it's why the day is important in so many religions.

I mean, if the crucifix instrument of torture was to be taken, even a plain stick could have been used, as you said.

[Grace Seeker]

But the point being then that when Christians think of the cross, they don't think of any of these other meanings. For us when thinking of the cross in a religious sense, we only think of it as a symbol of the death of Jesus. Therefore, the Christian cross, is distinct from these others that you speak of as having its origins in the actual event of crucifixion that Jesus suffered. I doubt that 1 Christian in 10 could even tell you about those other meanings to other folks. And if Christians can't tell you about those other meanings or thoughts then in fact they don't have those meanings to them. And again the reason is simple; those other meanings are not the origins of the Christian's use of the cross.

[The Khan]

Yes, I know. I take it's significance is similar to that of the iconography.

[barney]

Satanism, as in the LaVey Satanic church, is basically an atheist organisation which is severely anti-Christian. .

Satanism is atheistic?
Umm, Atheism is lack of god or gods or spooks or ogres or angels or Devils or tooth fairys or elves or tarot cards.

I beleive Satan exists as much as I beleive Skaven exist, and I'm agnostic so i have a higher tolerance for the mystical. An athist would have nothing to do with Satan, because Satan simply isnt there.

[The Khan]

I'm talking of the LaVey Satanic Church, which accounts for nearly all Satanists worldwide.

[north_malaysian]

Satanism, as in the LaVey Satanic church, is basically an atheist organisation which is severely anti-Christian.

Are you sure that the Satanists are Atheists?

Years...and years ago (when MIRC was so popular) I've met a Malaysian ex-Muslim who claimed that he's a Satanist (he called LaVey as Papa LaVey)....

He said that he believed that God exists...but chosed to rebel against God by joining Satan. He said that hell is a very glamorous place to be...

[Pygoscelis]

The vast majority of people who call themselves satanists are atheist anti-christians who just adopt the world "Satan" because he's the antithethis of the Christian God. I am one such person. I am Satanist. That doesn't mean I believe Satan exists. It means I see him as a heroic literary figure, one who stood up against a great evil power, knowing full well he could never defeat it. I find that heroic.

And no, "Satanist" does not mean LaVey... thats just one group of folks who latched onto the term and tried to make it exclusively theirs. It isn't. It has existed long before LaVey was born. Its been around pretty much since the idea of Satan has.