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Ummu Sufyaan
11-03-2008, 07:13 AM
:sl:

what do you do when your debating with another Muslim about a certain aspect of islam (lets say there of a different sect) and due to your differing opinions, you basically get nowhere. i.e you say its like this and they say its like that...

so you show your daleels (from the scholars, etc) as to why what your saying is right, and vise versa...but then you dont agree on them either.

so what do you do then :?

i hope im making sense here
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Abu Ilyas
11-03-2008, 07:36 AM
:S you dont agree with the daleel u got yourself?
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Ummu Sufyaan
11-03-2008, 07:44 AM
:sl:
no, i mean you (both) dont trust the scholars that each of you quote from.

i mean you need scholars 'back up' to debate, because you don't know the proper meaning/context of the daleels you would be using-whislt they do.
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Eye-OfThe-Storm
11-03-2008, 08:12 AM
Masha'Allah I think this is a good problem to have :D

It means both parties are interested in getting closer to God. :D
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Danah
11-03-2008, 09:00 AM
the most thing irritate me is when I see two people talking about a very obvious issue where there is Hadith has been stated about, and yet each one said: my sheilkh said so and so :enough!:

but when I am debating with other muslim I tried to get the Quran verse and Sahih hadith that it will not be refutable in any way
for those issues that we have to derive in indirect way from the hadith and Quran I have to find the fatwa that is making sense more..........I am not sure if you got what I mean here

Unfortunately, there are some muslims that trying to allow themselves to accept some fatawas from some unreliable sources when they know that they are not reliable.

For example: using the Nail polish for the women is preventing the water to touch the nail when we make wudu, I met a friend said that the shiekh she asked told her that its okay to pray and make wudu while the nails is polished........that does not make any sense when we know absolutely that the polish preventing the water........in other word, some are just fooling around and fool themselves about that
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crayon
11-03-2008, 01:43 PM
Show them the evidence, explain it to them. If they're still being stubborn, just say "Allahuma inni ballaght", and you've done your part. It's up to them whether they want to accept it or not.
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AvarAllahNoor
11-03-2008, 02:10 PM
You agree to disagree. You'll only cause a rift. Unless of course they are Satanic worshippers, then you want to leave them be!
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MSalman
11-03-2008, 02:18 PM
As-Salamu 'Alaykum

if the issue is in regard to fiqh then laypeople shouldn't be even talking about it but if it is in regard to tawheed or 'aqeedah then it is still advised that laypeople don't fall into these discussion unless you've sound knowledge or some knowledge to understand what the Islamic text means or what the 'ulama have said about it.

Wallahu A'lam
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Re.TiReD
11-03-2008, 02:23 PM
:wasalamex

Been there, tried to do that.

I felt the same when arguing with a shi'aa. We both brought forth our evidence yet he would not accept and take into consideration my hadeeth and I obviously knew enough that his evidence was weak and/or fabricated material.

So it's basically like a ping-pong ball going back and forth between two people. My advice, avoid it. As long as you're firm in your beliefs, 'Aqeedah etc etc....then dont even attempt to 'convert' anybody else. If you have to just link em to where they can read more insha'Allah but sometimes arguing is a waste of time.
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MO783
11-03-2008, 02:25 PM
:sl:

This is a difficult as to have a debate yuo have to have knowledge on the subject you have debates on, I would say if you are a scholar then its ok but if you do not have real knowledge then better to say quiet.
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Khalil_Allah
11-03-2008, 02:35 PM
don't worry that you are having trouble debating with Muslims...

We are notoriously terrible when it comes to disagreements! I remember that there was this Ismaili girl that came to the masjid in a sort of "outreach" thing where we were talking to christian and jew and other types of muslims. My brothers at the masjid were so civil and wonderful with the jew and christian, but with the Ismaili, they were terrible!

I felt so bad for this girl because they were talking about how backwards these people are and how they are committing shirk and all these things WHILE THE GIRL WAS STILL IN THE MASJID! How terrible right?

Anyway, regardless of what is being discussed, you can go to www.searchtruth.org and search through quran and hadith. You make your points and document your sources, and you have done all that you can. Just try everything you can to be respectful of the other person, even if they are saying things that are wrong. Correct respectfully and then give it up if it isn't getting through.
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Danah
11-03-2008, 03:08 PM
Originally Posted by Khalil_Allah
don't worry that you are having trouble debating with Muslims...

We are notoriously terrible when it comes to disagreements! I remember that there was this Ismaili girl that came to the masjid in a sort of "outreach" thing where we were talking to christian and jew and other types of muslims. My brothers at the masjid were so civil and wonderful with the jew and christian, but with the Ismaili, they were terrible!

I felt so bad for this girl because they were talking about how backwards these people are and how they are committing shirk and all these things WHILE THE GIRL WAS STILL IN THE MASJID! How terrible right?

Anyway, regardless of what is being discussed, you can go to www.searchtruth.org and search through quran and hadith. You make your points and document your sources, and you have done all that you can. Just try everything you can to be respectful of the other person, even if they are saying things that are wrong. Correct respectfully and then give it up if it isn't getting through.
muslims must be more wise when they talk to the other non muslims, some people are just jump to the conclusion and dont care about the reactions of the others.......
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Ummu Sufyaan
11-07-2008, 10:35 AM
wa alykum us-Salaam
Originally Posted by islamiclife
As-Salamu 'Alaykum

if the issue is in regard to fiqh then laypeople shouldn't be even talking about it but if it is in regard to tawheed or 'aqeedah then it is still advised that laypeople don't fall into these discussion unless you've sound knowledge or some knowledge to understand what the Islamic text means or what the 'ulama have said about it.

Wallahu A'lam
thats what i do. just take from the ulamaa, alhmadulillah...but they have thier ulamaa too. for example the thing with tawassul through the prophet (sallalhu aleyhi wa sallam)...thats what i dont know how to deal with..you get called stupid things like salafi, etc...:rollseyes
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MSalman
11-07-2008, 02:42 PM
^As-Salamu 'Alaykum

Bismillah Ar-Rahman Ar-Raheem

respected sister, the issue of the tawaassul through the Prophet (sal-allahu 'alayhi wa salam) depends on how a person does it. If the person is directing calling upon Allah by the status of Allah's Messenger (sal-allahu 'alayhi wa salam) then this is a fiqhi matter where the scholars have differed on whether it permissible or not, some allowed it and others didn't. This type of tawaassul isn't labeled as shirk but a bid'ah nonetheless. Hence, we shouldn't be extreme and as laypeople let's not discuss these issues in details. If laypeople discuss the issues, excluding tawheed, 'aqeedah and bid'ah, where scholars differed, it can become an endless battlefield because both of the parties think the scholars they're quoting is upon the haqq while they ignore their lack of knowledge and the other hidden reasons why scholar could have differed. Let's learn the deen and focus on the issues of tawheed and 'aqeedah and leave the other issues to the 'ulama. Let's focus on calling to good and forbidding evil in a respectable manner and let's remind each other of our obligations as reminders are beneficial for the Muslimeen as Allah Ta'ala informed us in His Kalam (the Qur'aan).

The Muslims, who follow the Qur'aan, the Sahih Sunnah and the understanding of the Salaf take the middle path. This is the path which was chosen by the true Sunnis/Salafis/Ahle al-hadith. May Allah Ta'ala make us follow the footsteps of righteous people and may He make us adhere to the correct teachings of Islam and guide us all, Ameen.

Wallahu A'lam
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Al-Zaara
11-07-2008, 07:23 PM
Originally Posted by Ramlah
you get called stupid things like salafi, etc...:rollseyes
And they get called stupid things aswell, like sufi, etc. :rollseyes

Been there, done that, heard it, said it and elhamdulillah, dealt with it.

You leave it, it's that simple. No need to get heated, really, I know it can be frustrating. None of us are scholars, doesn't matter at all, you follow what you follow, I mean, there is nothing else left to do for you. The matter is not to win the debate, but to find the truth. You can't force truth, your truth, on anyone. They accept if they want to.

Allah knows best!
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doorster
11-07-2008, 07:42 PM
there seems to be as many versions of truth as there is number of faiths/creeds/religions/sects/sub-sects/cults and all of them are the only ones with the real truth whether they received it via a dream or some infallible and pious person -- from some mythical era in past -- left it for them

and if you dare suggest to any of them
"lets go back to the Source to see what it says" all hell breaks loose, accusations of ignorance and arrogance are thrown around and if its on a web forum,then not only accusations of ignorance and arrogance are made but also all manner of self-contradicting copy pastes are plastered all over the place, which no doubt amuses the casual spectators but scares the life out of Seekers.

wa salam

wa salam
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Thinker
11-07-2008, 08:15 PM
Originally Posted by doorster
there seems to be as many versions of truth as there is number of faiths/creeds/religions/sects/sub-sects/cults and all of them are the only ones with the real truth whether they received it via a dream or some infallible and pious person -- from some mythical era in past -- left it for them

and if you dare suggest to any of them
"lets go back to the Source to see what it says" all hell breaks loose, accusations of ignorance and arrogance are thrown around and if its on a web forum,then not only accusations of ignorance and arrogance are made but also all manner of self-contradicting copy pastes are plastered all over the place, which no doubt amuses the casual spectators but scares the life out of Seekers.
I agree with what you say.

As an outsider looking in and a person who asks difficult questions it appears to me that the reason you get yourselves into such difficulties is because there are so many of you asking such detailed questions and so many scholars prepared to give a detailed answer. And the deeper you go into the detail the more you tie yourself up in knots. Take for example the post above about nail polish (I won’t comment as I do not want to offend, please forgive me but :-\ ) It would help Islam and Muslims if there was just one person who was the sole source of the answers to questions.
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
11-07-2008, 08:55 PM
Originally Posted by Ramlah
:sl:

what do you do when your debating with another Muslim about a certain aspect of islam (lets say there of a different sect) and due to your differing opinions, you basically get nowhere. i.e you say its like this and they say its like that...

so you show your daleels (from the scholars, etc) as to why what your saying is right, and vise versa...but then you dont agree on them either.

so what do you do then :?

i hope im making sense here
:w:

Here is what I've learned after having engaged in these kinds of debates for a long time.

1) Prioritize - Not everything needs to be argued over. There are things that are valid differences and we need to learn to be tolerant of them. Secondly, there is a principal called "li-kulli maqam maqal" i.e. 'For every place, there is a proper speech'. Therefore, I learned that I need to figure out firstly whether the issue that I'm assuming is worth arguing over - is it really worth it? Is it something that entails more benefit or more harm? Argumentation in the religion is generally despised. Ofcourse there are debates that are generally very important such as regarding the Names and Attributes of Allaah where the proper Sunni aqaaid need to be shown etc but when looking at priorities, it is something that doesn't need to be argued over when there are greater deviances such as rejection of hadeeth, the secularists, the progressives, and many problems that are more serious such as the Muslim youth falling into zina, drinking and other vices.

2) If the issue is of serious matters like Tawheed/Shirk and the individual has this belief built into him for the past 15 years - then one debate will not change him. We need to realize that these people are not scholars - scholars would accept the truth even if they're corrected by their students because they have that level of maturity. We also need to remember that what took years to build, will not be unbuilt in a day or even months. The hearts of people don't work that way. Bringing daleel (no matter how cool it looks when your popping out a hadeeth or an ayah) will not do much in changing the heart of the other person until his heart is at the stage where it can accept it. This is why the first verses to be revlealed from the Qur'an were about Allaah, death, the Aakhirah, Jannah, Naar and the Day of Judgment - to first soften the people's hearts and increase them in their imaan. This is why Allaah twice despised alcohol in the Qur'an before forbidding it. It is from His Wisdom that He didn't reveal the ahkaam of the Qur'an first - no one would have accepted it. Therefore, when dealing with serious matters such as a person that believes you can make dua' to other than Allaah - one needs to be wise and not push themselves into debates. Once you do that the human mind automatically will not care what you say - it will want to defend what it believes because this long ingrained belief is being attacked. Isn't this the main reason of kufr amongst the non-muslims? They don't want to change from the religion of their forefathers and they don't want to accept that their forefathers were upon error.

3) In debates, often the intention becomes to 'establish the proof' against the other person. I.e. - Let me show him these hadeeth, these verses, and if he doesn't believe then I've done my part. This was not the way of the Prophets. They were genuinly scared for their people and wished with all their hearts that the people would be guided - why do you think Prophet Nuh patiently did dawah for 900 years? Why did our beloved Messenger (salalahu alayhi wa sallam) not order the angel of the Mountains to destroy Ta'if when they stoned him and drove him out? Because the Messenger (salalahu alayhi wa sallam) wanted the people to be guided - it's ok if not this generation of people, then perhaps their children will worship Allaah alone. The worst thing that happened to the pure sunni dawah was this extremism is establishing the proof and labeling people as innovators and abandoning the people. Beware of falling into this.

4) Alternatives. Offer alternatives to what the person is doing. I remember a lesson I learnt from the life Imaam Shah Waliullah Dehlavi. He had to deal with extreme innovators from certain sects who had invented a lot of new (and creative) ways to worship Allaah and also to those in the graves. This Imaam did not go up to them and start arguing with them. He did not come back from his journey of seeking Ilm and close his father's school and shout 'Bid'ah, Bid'ah - all of you are doing Bid'ah'. He knew they had fallen into it, but he also knew that the way to change them was not to criticize them to their face. He used wisdom in the way he dealt with them because he understood that these people do in fact love Allaah and His Messenger (salalahu alayhi wa sallam), they do want to worship Allaah - they don't have insincere intentions or evil plots to innovate. So what did he do? He gave them alternatives. So when he came upon their innovated dhikr - he said 'You want to do dhikr? No problem, here is al-Adhkaar by Imaam Nawawi which will show you how the authentic adhkaar', 'You want to learn how to be ascetic and deal with the people? Here is al Adab al Mufrad of Imaam Bukhari.' He gave them a practical clear route that they can take without feeling that their own personal beliefs were being attacked and this way he brought about grassroots change. And guess what? Imaam Shah Waliullah succeded in changing the people.

Lastly, I have this quote from Imaam Suhaib Webb from an answer he gave on his website. I think the advice he gave is golden and is very important for any daee' to keep in mind. He said: "However, keep in mind that you must instruct the people with kindness and mercy. Don’t take this answer and shove it in their faces. Be kind, gentle and patient."*

And Allaah knows best.

:w:
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Danah
11-08-2008, 10:43 AM
Originally Posted by Abu Sayyad
:w:

2) If the issue is of serious matters like Tawheed/Shirk and the individual has this belief built into him for the past 15 years - then one debate will not change him. We need to realize that these people are not scholars - scholars would accept the truth even if they're corrected by their students because they have that level of maturity. We also need to remember that what took years to build, will not be unbuilt in a day or even months. The hearts of people don't work that way. Bringing daleel (no matter how cool it looks when your popping out a hadeeth or an ayah) will not do much in changing the heart of the other person until his heart is at the stage where it can accept it. This is why the first verses to be revlealed from the Qur'an were about Allaah, death, the Aakhirah, Jannah, Naar and the Day of Judgment - to first soften the people's hearts and increase them in their imaan. This is why Allaah twice despised alcohol in the Qur'an before forbidding it. It is from His Wisdom that He didn't reveal the ahkaam of the Qur'an first - no one would have accepted it. Therefore, when dealing with serious matters such as a person that believes you can make dua' to other than Allaah - one needs to be wise and not push themselves into debates. Once you do that the human mind automatically will not care what you say - it will want to defend what it believes because this long ingrained belief is being attacked. Isn't this the main reason of kufr amongst the non-muslims? They don't want to change from the religion of their forefathers and they don't want to accept that their forefathers were upon error.
:w:
jazak allah khair brother, I found those tips very helpful
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