How sad is this?

[جوري]

la 7wala wla qiwta illa billah..
I am speechless.. don't ask me to translate this article.. but this is what the grand muftis of KSA are doing to Muslims.. where is Islam in all of this?
I hate hypocrisy and hypocrites!

ياسر باعامر - وليد محمود




المستشار السعودي د.باسم عالم
جدة - ينتظر طبيبان مصريان تنفيذ الدفعة الثانية من حكم الجلد الصادر بحقهما من محكمة جدة الجزئية بعد تنفيذ الدفعة الأولى قبل 10 أيام بواقع 70 جلدة من أصل 1500، إضافة إلى سجن أحدهما 15 عاما، والآخر 20.
وتباينت روايات الإعلام المصري والسعودي حول السبب، فبينما أرجعت وسائل الإعلام المصرية الحكم إلى ارتكابهما خطأ طبيا تسبب في إدمان زوجة أمير سعودي خلال علاجها، ذكرت صحيفة "الحياة" اللندنية أنهما تسببا في إدمان العديد من النساء، و"اختليا" بهن دون علمهن.

وفي تصريحات لشبكة "إسلام أون لاين.نت" استبعد خبير قانوني سعودي أن يكون الحكم بالسجن والجلد سببه خطأ طبي، مؤكدا أن الخطأ الطبي البحت لا يستوجب الجلد، إلا إذا كان هناك تعمد، أو إهمال، أو استهتار.

وأرجأت السلطات السعودية أمس الأحد تنفيذ الدفعة الثانية من الجلد، بعد أن أكدت اللجنة الطبية بعد الكشف عليهما قبل تنفيذ الحكم إصابة المتهم الأول رءوف محمد العربي، بضيق في التنفس وضعف في عضلة القلب، وإصابة الثاني شوقي عبد ربه بارتفاع في ضغط الدم، على أن يتم التنفيذ في مدة أقصاها أسبوع، وفقا لتقرير نشرته اليوم الإثنين يومية "المصري اليوم".

"روايتان"

وعن تفاصيل القضية، قالت فتحية شاهين زوجة الطبيب رءوف لـ"المصري اليوم": "منذ ٥ سنوات استدعى أمير سعودي رءوف لعلاج زوجته في قصره، وتبين له أنها أصيبت بكسر في الظهر، ونقلت للعلاج في أمريكا؛ حيث حقنت هناك بالمورفين المخدر لتسكين آلامها، غير أنها أدمنته بعد عودتها للمملكة، فقرر زوجي بالاتفاق مع الأمير، علاجها من الإدمان حتى تعافت تماما".

وتابعت الزوجة: "إثر ذلك قرر رءوف تخفيض جرعة المورفين الذي كان يحضره من بعض المستشفيات بأوامر من الأمير.. وبعد شفائها قرر زوجي العودة إلى مصر ففوجئ بأنه ممنوع من مغادرة المملكة".

وذكرت الصحيفة أن "الطبيبين اتهما بمساعدة زوجة أمير سعودي على الإدمان، وحكم على رءوف محمد العربي بالسجن ١٥ عاما، وعلى شوقي عبد ربه ٢٠ عاما، مع جلدهما ١٥٠٠ جلدة، بواقع ٧٠ جلدة لكل منهما كل ١٠ أيام.

في المقابل، نشرت صحيفة "الحياة" رواية مختلفة مفادها أن الحكم جاء بعد أن "ضبطت الأجهزة الأمنية أحدهما وهو يستخدم دواءً سائلا يؤخذ عن طريق الحقن وممنوع دخوله إلى السعودية".

وأوضحت أن "التحقيقات مع الطبيب كشفت عن إعطائه جرعات من هذا الدواء للنساء المريضات في المستشفى؛ وهو ما يتسبب في تخديرهن بما يمكنه من الخلوة غير الشرعية بهن من دون معرفتهن، وإدمان الكثير منهن على الجرعات بمجرد تناولهن لأربع منها".

وأضافت الصحيفة أن الطبيب الثاني كان يساعده في مهمته.. وأن الأحكام شملت -إضافة إلى الطبيب ومساعده- عددا من العاملين والمتورطين معه، ممن استدعتهم لجان التحقيق، وتفاوتت أحكامهم بين الجلد والسجن، دون أن توضح الصحيفة جنسية المتورطين الآخرين.

مسئولية جنائية

وما بين رواية الإعلام المصري ونظيره السعودي، قال المحامي والمستشار القانوني السعودي، الدكتور باسم عالم: إن الأمر في الروايتين ينطوي على مسئولية جنائية للطبيب، إحداها أقل فداحة من الأخرى، فالمسئولية الأقل (بحسب رواية الإعلام المصري) تكمن في وجود معرفة مسبقة وإصرار مصحوب بالترغيب أو الترهيب من قبل المريضة التي تعاني من الإدمان أصلا.

وفي هذه الحالة يصبح الطبيب مسئولا مسئولية جنائية عن صرفه للدواء بغير وجه حق ولأسباب الكسب الخاص، وفي هذه الحالة فإن الحكم غير مبرر، بحسب المستشار القانوني السعودي.

وأضاف د. عالم في تصريح لـ"إسلام أون لاين.نت": "أما المسئولية الأغلظ (بحسب رواية الإعلام السعودي) فتكمن في أن المريضة بريئة براءة تامة، وهنا يكون الطبيب مسئولا عن إدمانها وما لحقها من ضرر.. وفي هذه الحالة يعامل الطبيب معاملة مروجي المخدرات، وهو ما يستوجب القتل تعزيرا، أو بحد الحرابة لما يقوم به من إفساد خطير".
غير أنه استدرك قائلا: إن "عدم صدور مثل هذا الحكم يدل على أن المريضة كان لها يد فيما حدث".

وحول ما إذا كان الحكم مبني على الخطأ، قال د. عالم: "إن الخطأ الطبي مفهوم متشعب؛ حيث ينقسم إلى عدة أقسام، تبدأ من الخطأ المبرر المبني على إجراءات وتحاليل صحيحة، وينتقل الخطأ من هذا المستوى إلى مستوى الخطأ المبني على الإهمال، ثم إلى الخطأ المبني على الاستهتار، وأخيرا الخطأ الذي يمكن أن يصنف بالقتل شبه العمد، ولا ندري ما هو التكييف القانوني الذي كيفت به هذه الحالة؟".

وأوضح د. عالم أن "الخطأ الطبي البحت لا يستوجب الجلد، ولكن ربما يصدر القاضي حكما بالجلد إذا كان هناك تعمد، أو إهمال، أو استهتار".

صحافة "سطحية"

وانتقد المستشار القانوني السعودي تغطية كل من الصحافة المصرية والسعودية للقضية بقوله: إن "تضارب الروايات يوضح أهمية الفصل التام بين النقاش الأكاديمي من جهة، وحجية القضاء المبني على الحقائق المتعلقة بكل قضية على حدة من جهة أخرى، ولا أحسب أن الصحافة المصرية تمتلك ناصية الحقيقة، كما لا أرى دوافع للصحافة السعودية من أجل تبرير الحكم".

وعن الروايتين المختلفتين للواقعة أضاف د. عالم: "للأسف دأبت الصحافة الخارجية على استغلال السمعة السيئة لبعض المتنفذين (أصحاب النفوذ) السعوديين لتبرير أعمال ضعاف النفوس الذين استهوتهم المادة، أو تملكهم الخوف على الوظيفة".

وتابع: "أما الصحافة السعودية فمن المخجل أن تطرح الموضوع وتخرجه على الهيئة التي تمت الصياغة بها؛ إذ صورت الأمر وكأن المريضات خارج إطار المساءلة".

واعتبر أن هذه الاختلاف "يدل على سطحية صحافتنا في العالم العربي؛ حيث تفتقد للموضوعية والآراء المبنية على التمحيص والبحث الصادق وتقصي الحقائق".

أحكام سابقة

واقعة الطبيبين المصريين تعتبر الحلقة الأحدث في سلسلة أحكام صدرت في الفترة الأخيرة ضد الوافدين؛ ففي ديسمبر 2006 نفذت الأجهزة المختصة في محافظة الطائف حكما بجلد طبيب أطفال من جنسية عربية داخل مبنى مستشفى الملك عبد العزيز التخصصي وسط حضور عدد كبير من الموظفين والأطباء؛ بعد صدور حكم قضائي بجلده لإضراره بسمعة طبيبة تعمل في المستشفى.

وصدر الحكم بالجلد داخل حرم المستشفى؛ لرد اعتبار الطبيبة المتضررة، إضافة إلى ترحيله عن البلاد لإخلاله بميثاق مهنته.

وفي يوليو 2008، أكدت محكمة استئناف حكما بجلد وسجن باحث في الكيمياء الحيوية وطالبة كان يشرف على رسالتها الجامعية، بعد اعتبار علاقتهما البحثية "ستارا لعلاقة على الهاتف".

وحكم عليه في 2007 بالسجن 8 أشهر، والجلد 600 جلدة، وعلى الطالبة بالسجن 4 أشهر والجلد 350 جلدة؛ بتهمة إقامة علاقة عبر الهاتف، قالت المحكمة إنها أدت إلى طلاقها من زوجها.

وكان المستشفى الذي يعمل به الباحث، ويقع في الباحة جنوب غربي المملكة، قد كلفه عام 2002 بالإشراف على رسالة الطالبة التي تعدها في جامعة الملك عبد العزيز بمدينة جدة.

وكانت السيدة قد حصلت على الطلاق في عام 2004 بعد 7 أشهر من زواجها، فرفع الزوج دعوى قضائية يقول فيها إن اتصالها مع المشرف على الرسالة هو

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...News/NWALayout

[alcurad]

ridiculous

[doorster]

:sl:
jazakumAllah khairan

Perhaps I'll reply more later (if I am able to gather some support).

:w:

[doorster]

http://www.metimes.com/International...nkillers/2969/

Egypt's doctors' union on Wednesday slammed as "worse than death" a punishment of 1 500 lashes handed down by a Saudi Arabian court to an Egyptian doctor for allegedly turning a Saudi princess into a drug addict. Rauf Amin, 53, is being whipped at the rate of 10-15 lashes a week during a 15-year jail term, Hamdi al-Sayyad, director of the Doctors' Syndicate, said. He was charged with giving the woman morphine to ease her pain following a riding accident, which allegedly turned her into an addict. He described Amin's trial as unfair and his sentence - doubled on appeal from 750 lashes and seven years in prison …..(AFP, 30 Oct 08)

:sl:

when I say to people that Saudi courts are run by criminals to try Muslims and it's real ulema are locked up, I get accused of blasphemy. according to many of my Pakistani brethren Saudi Arabia can do no wrong :(

I am now shunned at my local Mosque (by "salafis") after my latest "blasphemous hate" speech

while they preach to Muslims of other countries to hate their home countries because they claim that patriotism is same as tribalism/racism, yet enforce loyalty to their own illicit kingdom at gunpoint.

P.S
2 saudi inspired takfiri numskulls have made youtube videos saying that all who attend GPU are kafir regardless of their intentions.

:w:

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[جوري]

sadly she was treated in the US he only oversaw her care..

what an odd story -- I don't see anything from Quran and sunna run by Saudis least of which in this case, whom ever heard of 450 lashes?.. this article infuriated me..
frankly I don't care if I am shunned.. there is no greater Jihad than the word of truth spoken to tyrants!

:w:

[Woodrow]

Sadly that while some of the world's most pious Muslims will be found in Saudi, it is also the country most challanged by fitnah and the shaytan.

We will see good come out of Saudi, but we must also be cautious as it seems there are those in Saudi who wear the name Muslim, but do not follow Islam.

Saudi is rich in eeman, but it is also filled with those seeking to destroy Islam.

The title "Made in Saudi" is no guarantee it is Islamic.

We all need to check the truth of any word and the reliability of it being truly Islamic, no matter what country it is from.

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

:sl:

when I say to people that Saudi courts are run by criminals to try Muslims and it's real ulema are locked up, I get accused of blasphemy. according to many of my Pakistani brethren Saudi Arabia can do no wrong :(

:sl: my dear brother,

I think you should realize that the underlined portion from your post is merely your opinion, and as you have your own, others will have their own opinions as well. Attacking them for their opinions won't be of any benefit. Engaging in polite dialogue on the other hand can actually be beneficial.

I am now shunned at my local Mosque after my latest "blasphemous hate" speech

while they preach to Muslims of other countries to hate their home countries because they claim that patriotism is same as tribalism/racism, yet enforce loyalty to their own illicit kingdom at gunpoint.

I think if you were to stop generalizing and were to be more constructive in your criticism it would be well received. I'm sure you have many beneficial points to bring forward, but when the manner in which they are presented is not impartial and unbiased, people won't take it seriously.

And to add as a disclaimer: I don't agree with everything about Saudi nor do I agree with a lot of what they do. They have faults but they also have good. It's very unfair to highlight their evils and shy away from mentioning the good. Balance is the key in everything. Extremism in fighting extremism only begets more extremism.

P.S
2 saudi inspired takfiri numskulls have made youtube videos saying that all who attend GPU are kafir regardless of their intentions.

1) I don't think they're inspired by Saudi - because if Saudi indeed preached Takfir, I don't think they would let Sh. Adil remain Imaam of Masjid al-Haram after he attended the GPU. He would have been out asap. I think you aren't aware of what the Saudi scholars preach - believe me, they don't preach Takfir. Takfir is preached by a radically different fringe group.

2) 2 individuals are not representative of anyone except themselves.

:w:

[Yanal]

:sl: Wheres the English version I can't read Arabic.

[doorster]

:sl: Wheres the English version I can't read Arabic.

:sl:
http://www.metimes.com/International...nkillers/2969/

:sl: my dear brother,

I think you should realize that the underlined portion from your post is merely your opinion, and as you have your own, others will have their own opinions as well. Attacking them for their opinions won't be of any benefit. Engaging in polite dialogue on the other hand can actually be beneficial.

I think if you were to stop generalizing and were to be more constructive in your criticism it would be well received. I'm sure you have many beneficial points to bring forward, but when the manner in which they are presented is not impartial and unbiased, people won't take it seriously.

And to add as a disclaimer: I don't agree with everything about Saudi nor do I agree with a lot of what they do. They have faults but they also have good. It's very unfair to highlight their evils and shy away from mentioning the good. Balance is the key in everything. Extremism in fighting extremism only begets more extremism.

1) I don't think they're inspired by Saudi - because if Saudi indeed preached Takfir, I don't think they would let Sh. Adil remain Imaam of Masjid al-Haram after he attended the GPU. He would have been out asap. I think you aren't aware of what the Saudi scholars preach - believe me, they don't preach Takfir. Takfir is preached by a radically different fringe group.

2) 2 individuals are not representative of anyone except themselves.

:w:

Wa Alaikum Salaam
some close to home personal unresolved revenge issues which perhaps blind me with hatred of Saudi Arabia and deobandi Pakistanis. I start shaking with fear and anger at mere mention of them. I, however, am working on a resolution.

:w:

like Sr.Manal might say: Each of us see/find what we look for in something/someone

You look for (your version of) good in Saudia so that is what you are finding whereas someone else may only look for something that will help them exorcise their ghosts

I think you aren't aware of what the Saudi scholars preach

mostly true! for nowadays I run away at mere mention of them and keep a very long distance between myself and them .

edit:
My bad English! and lack of presence of mind, I forgot to differentiate between government owned scholars and others (I do try to keep track of "scholars" in service of house of saud)

Edit2: this "running away" however, does not mean that I do not watch an occasional "fatwa" program on Muslim tv channels (I sometimes record the programs) in hope of spotting a gaffe (and later retractions and denials are most telling even hilarious)

[Questfortruth]

I know a lot of people attack Shaykh Bin Baz but he was a good guy. Its the Saudi society thats bad and the saudi government just allows the criminal acts. Yes, its true many Saudis are good people and very religious. My dad lived in Saudi Arabia for more then 20 years. He told me you can actually feel the difference from area to area. Some areas are really bad racism, harassment, arab nationalism etc. But some areas people are very good people. The only problem is in most of the world government trys to protect their citizens where in Saudi Arabia government only protects Saudis and gives them more rights. Which results in oppression by saudis. Saudi companies hire non saudis dont pay them for months then depot them. Also the women and children are treated really bad the government doesnt protect the weak and the miniorities. Either the government needs to change their policies or Scholars need to take a stronger stand. I think Bin Baz and Uthaymeen were good scholars. It would have been good if they spoke out more and demanded rights for the citizens.

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

:w:

You look for good in Saudia so that is what you are finding whereas someone else may only look for something that will help them exorcise their ghosts

:w:

I don't look for good or evil. I try my best to look for the truth and I pray that Allaah allows me to find it.

mostly true! for I run away at mere mention of them and keep a very long distance between myself and them.

Then, for the sake of the great distance between you and them, you should also refrain from commenting since by your own admission brother, you hardly know much about them!

[Na7lah]

Egypt's doctors' union on Wednesday slammed as "worse than death" a punishment of 1 500 lashes handed down by a Saudi Arabian court to an Egyptian doctor for allegedly turning a Saudi princess into a drug addict. Rauf Amin, 53, is being whipped at the rate of 10-15 lashes a week during a 15-year jail term, Hamdi al-Sayyad, director of the Doctors' Syndicate, said. He was charged with giving the woman morphine to ease her pain following a riding accident, which allegedly turned her into an addict. He described Amin's trial as unfair and his sentence - doubled on appeal from 750 lashes and seven years in prison …..(AFP, 30 Oct 08)

1500 lashes?! :muddlehea subhanallah, this is just +o( audhubillah

[S_87]

how much of this article is 'true'
ive seen enough saudi bashing articles with only half the facts in the past month...

[doorster]

how much of this article is 'true'

depends on which side someone is on. if (s)he is after "truth", (s)he will find it since there are different versions of truth for different people
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...News/NWALayout

if someone is after maintaining the status quo, they will see a different truth thus will dismiss/suppress stories of slavery torture and medieval English Royalty type "off with his head" at slightest little hint of dissent or perceived mistake.

On the other hand those who want to free the lands from and/or have tasted the tyrannical oppression and injustices, will see a different truth and will try to expose it to get support

[Woodrow]

Every country is made up of humans, there are good and bad humans, most if not all humans are a mixture of good and bad.

Both news of good things and new of bad things in Saudi are probably true.

Because something comes from Saudi does not automatically make it right or wrong.

I think the point needs to be shown, to some people, that because something comes from Saudi, does not mean it is automatically the final word on Islam. Too many people accept things as being true or fiqh simply because there are said by a person in Saudi.

We need to verify all things ourselves.

[Questfortruth]

how much of this article is 'true'
ive seen enough saudi bashing articles with only half the facts in the past month...

lol go to www.arabnews.com see how government owned news network promotes hatred for non saudis. Saudi arabia is awful place to live if you are a non saudi and women or child. Most western muslims are bit sensitive with saudi arabia because they think its Shariah. Its not shariah they have racism total injustice in their country. The government is responsible for allowing and sometimes promoting these things.

[Questfortruth]

Every country is made up of humans, there are good and bad humans, most if not all humans are a mixture of good and bad.

Both news of good things and new of bad things in Saudi are probably true.

Because something comes from Saudi does not automatically make it right or wrong.

I think the point needs to be shown, to some people, that because something comes from Saudi, does not mean it is automatically the final word on Islam. Too many people accept things as being true or fiqh simply because there are said by a person in Saudi.

We need to verify all things ourselves.

Yes, its true every country is made up of humans good and bad. But if a government allowed or remained silent to the bad. That eventually leads to more people abusing power. If police were given the right to beat anyone on street no questions asked. Most likely alot of cops will abuse this right. Now you give Saudi men a special right an unfair right over everyone else. This will lead them to abusing the right. I can give you a huge list of things that happen in Saudi arabia which is oppression agiasnt women, children and Non Saudis. Remeber I lived in Saudi Arabia my father lived there for more then 20 years. My dad told me things which should not be acceptable any where in the world.

[S_87]

lol go to www.arabnews.com see how government owned news network promotes hatred for non saudis. Saudi arabia is awful place to live if you are a non saudi and women or child. Most western muslims are bit sensitive with saudi arabia because they think its Shariah. Its not shariah they have racism total injustice in their country. The government is responsible for allowing and sometimes promoting these things.

no one said saudi is perfect. i know of non saudis who live there and love it so again what you said is not entirely true. Theres good and bad everywhere, saudi bashing just gets so boring after a while though

[Questfortruth]

Edit

[مـحـمد نـبـينا]

:salamext:

Akhi take it easy, this is not how we give nasee7ah jazaak Allahu kheir.

:w:

[crayon]

The problem is though, since the rest of the world looks to Saudi Arabia as an example of Islam, it should be the best example it could be.

For example, there's an imam at the mosque, and a random muslim man. The muslim man may do unislamic things, but he does not "represent" islam, so to speak. People will think "oh, he's just a man who lies". If people see the imam doing something unislamic, they'll automatically relate his action to islam, even if it's nothing to do with the religion. So they'll think "he's a leader of muslims and he lies?! what a horrible religion" I'm not saying that's right, but that's how people's minds work. And of course, the muslim man does somewhat represent the islam and the muslim community, but not nearly as much as the imam does.

So when you are a representative of something, you've always got to be on your best behavior, and try not to mess up, because people will be watching your every move. This is why when Saudi Arabia, or even Iran, or any other muslim country with "shariah" does something against islam, it is seen as a huge deal.

[Questfortruth]

:salamext:

Akhi take it easy, this is not how we give nasee7ah jazaak Allahu kheir.

:w:

Just giving a reality check on Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia is not a shariah state. No one can argue otherwise. One more thing for muslims. If a person insults Prophet Muhammad s.a.w and I give him $100 worth of gift what is the ruling on me? Does that make me a disbeliever? Saudi king gave a person that insulted prophet Muhammad s.a.w more then $10,000 gift. Interesting how he can travel to give gifts to enemy of Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. Yet cannot show a bit of mercy to the people that follow Prophet Muhammad s.a.w.

[maryam87]

I have heard alot of the opression that goes there, but i still love the country cause its the land of the prophet (pbuh). Dont worry every opressor will get what they deserve at the end no need to get aggressive here

[Questfortruth]

I have heard alot of the opression that goes there, but i still love the country cause its the land of the prophet (pbuh). Dont worry every opressor will get what they deserve at the end no need to get aggressive here

LOL I am sure no one has a problem with the land itself. But we have a problem with who is ruling that country. Anyways I do agree fall of Saddam came now soon fall of Saud will come Inshallah. (I do not agree with Military action)