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ponderer331
11-17-2008, 04:38 AM
Assalamu Alaikum,
I was born into a Muslim Family and now am a student who would like some answers. I have done my research, but I feel now that a forum would be the best place for further discussion. I ask that no one "hijack" my thread because I would like all my answers answered no matter how long it takes. That being said let me start:

I am going to start at the basics. Let us assume I don't know Islam is correct. Therefore, I do not know whether God exists or not. Can someone show me why I should belive in a God? Please don't say things like "look at the miracle of Quran"; point me to specific verse numbers if you say that. Or give me philosophical arguments.
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جوري
11-17-2008, 05:17 AM
To arrive to God is a personal quest.. I doubt anyone can make you an argument for or against God!..
once you question your situation you can only come up with two plausible conclusions at the very fulcrum upon which all else rests!.. either there is an omnipotent and omniscient originator that is the first cause and has set all into motion.. or it was all a series of favorable chances.. every few yrs some small nuclear fragments fell into proper sequence, developed sentience and voila the universe and all therein ..

whatever conclusions you reach should really be a result of your own search and reflections... it isn't a communal effort..

all the best!
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ponderer331
11-17-2008, 07:03 AM
Thanks for your answer.

My thought process goes something like this:

It is more important for me to find out what God expects out of me IF he exists instead of trying to figure out if he exists or not.

Now, any given religion has more people who don't follow it than there are people who do. Also, the majority of people in the world are born and die in the religion of their parents/society. If a God of one of these religions was just, why would he do this? How does he expect me to go through each religion and find out which is the right one when this is an extremely hard process to do objectively?

Therefore I can only conclude that I cannot really do anything for God as it is pretty much impossible for me to figure out what he wants.

Makes sense?
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alcurad
11-17-2008, 08:12 AM
but why do you assume you need to go through all belief systems until you chance on the 'right' one, whichever one that is?
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جوري
11-17-2008, 04:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ponderer331
Thanks for your answer.

My thought process goes something like this:

It is more important for me to find out what God expects out of me IF he exists instead of trying to figure out if he exists or not.

Now, any given religion has more people who don't follow it than there are people who do. Also, the majority of people in the world are born and die in the religion of their parents/society. If a God of one of these religions was just, why would he do this? How does he expect me to go through each religion and find out which is the right one when this is an extremely hard process to do objectively?

Therefore I can only conclude that I cannot really do anything for God as it is pretty much impossible for me to figure out what he wants.

Makes sense?
this is from your first post no?

format_quote Originally Posted by ponderer331

I do not know whether God exists or not. Can someone show me why I should belive in a God?
You seem very confused and without focus-- can you yourself spot the contradiction?
If you can't establish whether or not God exists why do you want to waste your time and everyone else's on semantics and minor nuances of which religion or why?.. further to go insulting everyone's intelligence by a massive sweep of your brush assuming, folks only follow the religion of their parents rather than a result of some thought and reflection, and then at the end wrapping it nicely with, well I don't want to follow this God anyway...
plainly put 'DON'T' as stated in my first post this is a solo journey not a communal effort...

all the best
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Thinker
11-17-2008, 07:03 PM
I was raised as a Catholic. Like you say, like most people, I got the religion my parents gave me. In my early school days at a Catholic school I wasn’t so much educated about the religion I was spoon fed it and required to learn much of it by rote. Those teachings were quite prescriptive; do this and you go to heaven, do that and you go to hell and then there was purgatory and limbo.

I was in my mid teens when I started to form similar questions to those posed by ponderer331. If God was perfect why would he send a good man to hell for dieing with a ‘mortal’ sin on his soul and let another into heaven who had committed many heinous mortal sins but had (luckily) received absolution before death. I can recall being taught about the work of Albert Schweitzer and being much impressed about what a good man he was and asking the question, if he missed Mass on Sunday (a mortal sin) and suddenly dropped dead would he go to hell (I was a child at the time). I never got a good answer. In my mid to late teens, after giving it some serious thought I concluded that if there was a God he had to be perfect and perfect Gods must dispense perfect justice. So I formed the view that God would judge me for what I did not for what I believed.

Of course I’d love to wrap myself in the warm blanket of belief that if I did a, b and c, I would end up in paradise and to that end I have studied some different forms of belief followed by people who seem to believe them most fervently. The problem is, it always comes back to the same thing, you get to a point where every religion says something to the effect that ‘it can’t be explained you must have faith.’

So the search, the questions and the thinking continues.
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- Qatada -
11-17-2008, 07:12 PM
Here's a good link which answers alot of questions about Islam on the existence of God, the issues of agnosticism etc.;

http://idawah.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=6


Also, keep in mind that if you're looking for a way of life - try to see the religions based on its number of followers - look at the most followed religion and work your way down. I don't say this because number is important, but because more followers may have a reasoning behind it, and that if God sent a truth - He wouldn't make it so impossible to hide His true religion from the masses.
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جوري
11-17-2008, 07:14 PM
In Islam 'wrapping' yourself in a, b or c doesn't guarantee anyone entrance into paradise... all who enter are there through God's mercy.. doing righteous or evil deeds counts for something, very unlike Christianity where Jesus is a sort of sin eater, all you need to do is accept him and be guaranteed paradise.. and it isn't a birth right either like in Judaism..

reductionist arguments don't do much for me.. I don't personally draw satisfaction from simplistic conclusions..
Islam isn't about simple prayer or fast and Alms giving, although those are integral pillars and one can argue (if nothing at all, they by themselves serve to give humans, a sense of peace, purpose, fulfillment and solid relations to the communities in which they live)
Islam covers every aspect of daily living from the way you groom to the way you run a state, it is a complete political and economic system as well, and has worked quite well when it was implemented better known to humanity as the 'age of reason'...

Islam doesn't favor a blond over a red head, isn't exclusive to a group of people and it doesn't ask for absurdities.. all that is asked of one are things of benefit to one, if you will exclude an 'afterlife' you can still appreciate how implementation will work for this life. It is about reason and justice and a solid system where no one is left out, not a system of fear of punishment!

all the best!
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ponderer331
11-17-2008, 08:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
You seem very confused and without focus-- can you yourself spot the contradiction?
If you can't establish whether or not God exists why do you want to waste your time and everyone else's on semantics and minor nuances of which religion or why?.. further to go insulting everyone's intelligence by a massive sweep of your brush assuming, folks only follow the religion of their parents rather than a result of some thought and reflection, and then at the end wrapping it nicely with, well I don't want to follow this God anyway...
plainly put 'DON'T' as stated in my first post this is a solo journey not a communal effort...

all the best
This post sounds very angry to me. I simply came here looking for people's perspectives; I fail to see where I am insulting everyone's intelligence.

I am very focused. My point here was that I saw no reason to choose one religion over another. Also, am I wrong in my generalization that most people are brought up in their faith from birth? I wasn't saying "everyone"; I said "most". And even when people do give it the "thought and reflection" you mentioned, it is not from a neutral stance, thereby being vulnerable to confirmation bias. Again, I am not saying everyone is like this.

I am looking for reasons why people chose to believe in God, and why they chose Islam over others. I was hoping this would help me in making my own decisions.

If my posts seem irrelevant and a waste of time to you, then please don't respond. The other posters here have been very helpful. The moderators will take care of it if it is not appropriate.
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ponderer331
11-17-2008, 08:33 PM
Also, Skye

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your stance appears to be very much like:
"In my quest to find the truth, I have realized that Islam is the one true religion. I cannot know God's intentions, but I strongly feel that he is there, and expects me to live my life according to Islam in order to go to heaven. To learn what Islam teaches, I refer to scholars, and again figure out which scholar (shafi, hanafi etc) fits best with what I feel.
Also, I do not know whether those who disbelieve will go to heaven or not; God knows best."

Am I mistaken in any part of that?
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Hamayun
11-17-2008, 08:55 PM
Brother welcome to LI

I can only speak for myself here.

The reason why I came to Islam is because in it I found 100% answers.

My search consisted of months of sleepless nights, searching, reading like mad, watching videos, reading forums etc. Alhamdulillah in the end I found peace with Allah.

Why believe in God? Well it is a personal thing but through simple logic I have no doubts in his existence. Although I could give you a million examples all you have to do is read about the sperm cell from its production to its journey into the egg.

Atheists swear by the unproven scientific "theories" about the origins of the universe but I have never been and never will be convinced. I have seen these arguments over and over that last for weeks and months with no conclusion.

I found total peace in Islam and the confidence that I have definitely made the right choice.

It is something you can only understand if you reach out and call out to Allah from the deepest parts of your heart.

The only person able to convince you is actually yourself.

May Allah giude you and make your journey to truth easy.

Salam :)
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جوري
11-17-2008, 08:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ponderer331
This post sounds very angry to me. I simply came here looking for people's perspectives; I fail to see where I am insulting everyone's intelligence.
how does a post make a sound?

I am very focused. My point here was that I saw no reason to choose one religion over another. Also, am I wrong in my generalization that most people are brought up in their faith from birth? I wasn't saying "everyone"; I said "most". And even when people do give it the "thought and reflection" you mentioned, it is not from a neutral stance, thereby being vulnerable to confirmation bias. Again, I am not saying everyone is like this.
How are you focused when on one post, you are looking for proof for God, and in the second one you dismiss that in search of what religion?
what is the point/purpose or pursuing a religion (path to God) if you don't even believe he exists?
I'll use the analogy, you don't believe in Poiseuille’s Law yet come and argue you the nuances of calculation of cardiac output and to complicate matter, you ask why not use Fick's laws of diffusion-- you have no concept what each is used for or how how to work different variables.. it seems logical at least to me, if you wish to argue little details of why or why not, that you first establish yourself in a physics course? -- Religion is no different! there is no point of arguing why not Zoroastrianism instead of Islam, when God to you may or may not exist!
further who said other Abrahamic religions are wrong? it isn't a matter of who is wrong or right, they all have elements of truth.. this is about what is most correct for our purposes..
like a question on your exam.. several answers maybe correct, but only one answer is most correct, and that will be the one to raise your score or in practical use, save and better someone's life
NSAIDs, steroids, colchicine and DMARDS can all be used for arthritis, so how do you choose which is correct for a patient? -- does require some thought and study!-- no different than religion!
I am looking for reasons why people chose to believe in God, and why they chose Islam over others. I was hoping this would help me in making my own decisions.
as stated and I so hate repeating myself, arriving to God is a solo journey.. you want to read why folks chose Islam, you may go to comparative religion and read the 'convert stories'

If my posts seem irrelevant and a waste of time to you, then please don't respond. The other posters here have been very helpful. The moderators will take care of it if it is not appropriate.
then don't bait me with another post as such!

format_quote Originally Posted by ponderer331
Also, Skye

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your stance appears to be very much like:
"In my quest to find the truth, I have realized that Islam is the one true religion. I cannot know God's intentions, but I strongly feel that he is there, and expects me to live my life according to Islam in order to go to heaven. To learn what Islam teaches, I refer to scholars, and again figure out which scholar (shafi, hanafi etc) fits best with what I feel.
Also, I do not know whether those who disbelieve will go to heaven or not; God knows best."

Am I mistaken in any part of that?
by the above quote do you mean to speak for my person? I never told you in my quest for truth, I found Islam to be truth for such and such...

living a life under the banner of Islam isn't for the mere outcome of heaven, and I personally don't follow any scholar's teaching... I read and I reason, and I don't concern myself of the fate of others, because I am not funneling people to heaven or hell it seems rather inconsequential I think one should busy themselves with their own fate!


all the best!
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ponderer331
11-17-2008, 09:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
how does a post make a sound?
You are extremely unhelpful in making comments such as these. You know quite well that what I meant when I said "your post sounds angry" was my perspective on the tone of your post.

I will stop responding and asking you questions now. You seem more interested in arguing than helping. Sorry for my remarks.

I still ask others in the forum in helping answer my questions.

To: Hamayun
You say that believing God is "a personal thing" but that you belived "through simple logic." Logic (and reason) is not personal; it is universal. This is the only part of your post that is problematic to me. I don't see how your musings on things like the sperm cell is simple or logical. Doesn't it bother you that most (85-90+%) scientists of NAS and Royal Society express doubt or disbelief in God? I daresay they have a better understanding of biology (and sperm) than you. However, by the rest of your post I will assume that you meant that believing is personal.

I used to be a devout Muslim. I used to pray 5 times a day, and struggled to stay away from the evils (according to Islam) of those around me, which is quite hard to do at an American University. I only ate halal, and spent a great deal of time with the Quran and learning about Islam. However, to make others belive in Islam, I started researching it and only came up with empty answers to my questions. That is when I drifted away from God, which is quite ironic because Allah asks you to seek knowledge.

You also stated that I have to call out to Allah from the deepest part of my heart. Now, I have to assume that you think that when I used to believe I was not sincere, or at least didn't reach "the deepest" parts of my heart. I think that is where we will have to agree to disagree.

Also, how is an agnostic supposed to reach that part of his heart when he doesn't believe in Allah in the first place? Hardly seems a just God would allow that to me.

If there is a universal consensus on this forum that believing in God is a strictly personal thing, and has nothing to do with reason or logic, I will leave it at that. I don't know if everyone agrees with that though.

Peace to all, and sorry if i offended anyone.
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جوري
11-17-2008, 09:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ponderer331
You are extremely unhelpful in making comments such as these. You know quite well that what I meant when I said "your post sounds angry" was my perspective on the tone of your post.
You are extremely disjointed-- I don't know 'quite well' what you meant.. that is what you've personally deduced, I assume, if you are capable of such insightful reasoning, you can also ponder what it is that ails your posts?

I will stop responding and asking you questions now. You seem more interested in arguing than helping. Sorry for my remarks.
super!

If there is a universal consensus on this forum that believing in God is a strictly personal thing, and has nothing to do with reason or logic, I will leave it at that. I don't know if everyone agrees with that though.

Peace to all, and sorry if i offended anyone.
No one said it was strictly personal... I have already stated in my first post, you can only have two logical conclusions to the human condition and whatever route you pursue from there on is personal..

I imagine arriving to God, is rather logical, atheism is a universal negative... in order for atheism to be correct, you either have to account for everything else in the known universe by way of experimentation and observable truth in lieu of hypothesis or concede your surrender to the obvious, which would also satisfy the principle of parsimony...

stop arrogating without authority or understanding of what others write or mean.. and then come all exasperated as if you suffered some grievous injustice!
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ponderer331
11-17-2008, 09:46 PM
Haha really now? You really thought that I was saying that the post was making an audible sound? You really didn't know that I was talking about the tone of your post?

Please.
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Hamayun
11-17-2008, 09:48 PM
It is a personal thing... eeman can not be given Brother. You either have it or you don't.

A perfect example of that is you have scientists who are atheists but you also have a large number of scientists, doctors, astronomers etc who through their research in Biology, Chemistry, Physics found God and then later reverted to Islam. Seen my signature? Makes sense I guess... but don't ask me why. Allahu Alim.

You say you were a devout Muslim and have now drifted away then that is unfortunate but I can not help you.

I have absolutely no doubts about Islam being the only way for me. But if it is not for you then thats not something anyone can help you with...

My story is opposite to yours. I went from being born a muslim to turning Atheist and then finding peace in Islam.

Wish I could help with your search but you already have formed an opinion so it would be futile anyway.
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جوري
11-17-2008, 09:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ponderer331
Haha really now? You really thought that I was saying that the post was making an audible sound? You really didn't know that I was talking about the tone of your post?

Please.
Do you have something of substance to impart that is actually relevant to what I write, or just want to act a little precious?
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ponderer331
11-17-2008, 09:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun

A perfect example of that is you have scientists who are atheists but you also have a large number of scientists, doctors, astronomers etc who through their research in Biology, Chemistry, Physics found God and then later reverted to Islam. Seen my signature? Makes sense I guess... but don't ask me why. Allahu Alim.
I guess what I am saying is that science causes people to become atheists/agnostics much more than it causes people to believe in God. Can you please point me towards examples of scientists reverting to Islam THROUGH their research?


Do you have something of substance to impart that is actually relevant to what I write, or just want to act a little precious?
How ironic, when it is you who made the comment on how a post can make a sound.

You can say whatever. This is my last post in response to you.
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Hamayun
11-17-2008, 10:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ponderer331
I guess what I am saying is that science causes people to become atheists/agnostics much more than it causes people to believe in God. Can you please point me towards examples of scientists reverting to Islam THROUGH their research?

This is just the first example I could find. There are many others but please don't make me do your leg work. This is your search...

What makes sense to me wont necessarily make sense to you

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=bUozJS-alvE
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Hamayun
11-17-2008, 10:29 PM
Here are a few more vids. Not many scientists like to make youtube vids of their reversion so dont expect to find it all so easily.

This still probably wont convince you so make of it what you like, it really is none of my busines... what makes sense to me probably wont make sense to you.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=eesHQW...eature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=RkhBYr...eature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=TcNOae...eature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=V-9ytVsAyh8
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ponderer331
11-17-2008, 10:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
This is just the first example I could find. There are many others but please don't make me do your leg work. This is your search...

What makes sense to me wont necessarily make sense to you

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=bUozJS-alvE
I wasn't asking you to do my work for me. I was asking you to verify your claim.

Don't you see the bias in your approach? Out of all the scientists in the world, you are looking at the few that find God through their research, whereas 90% of them begin to doubt God.

The reason I asked was because I went to an Al-Maghrib class on the Quran, where it was mentioned that there was no blind faith in Islam. You seem to take the opposite view that one needs faith before beliving in Allah.

I think it absolutely ridiculous to claim that one needs faith for both believing and disbelieving in God. I for example acknowledge God can exist, but believe that no one can truly know what he expects out of us. You have confirmed this by saying you need to take the leap of faith before believing in Allah.
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Hamayun
11-17-2008, 10:42 PM
The 90% of scientists you are referring to have no knowledge of Islam and have been let down by the contradictions in other religions that they grew up in. There is no guarantee they will revert even after learning about Islam.

Truth of the matter is no matter what me or anyone else says to you here makes no difference. You have established an opinion and conclusion already judging by your above post.

I heard Shaytan is really good at his job. One his fortes is creating doubts in peoples hearts and judging by your posts he is doing a pretty darn good job.

Good luck :beard:
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ponderer331
11-17-2008, 10:48 PM
Thank You for your input.

The main point I wanted to make was that your initial decision was based upon faith whereas mine wasn't. And you seem to agree with me.
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جوري
11-17-2008, 10:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ponderer331

How ironic, when it is you who made the comment on how a post can make a sound.
Where is the irony? I fail to see it... you should think before you write, so you don't come across like a complete buffoon who seems to draw satisfaction out of simplistic conclusions!

You can say whatever. This is my last post in response to you.
we can only hope-- this does seem like the third time you have made that attempt & failed!


all the best
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Hamayun
11-17-2008, 10:57 PM
To a degree yes.
When I was an Atheist I did every sin under the sun. To my surprise rather than giving me pleasure it made me feel empty and depressed. I didn't want to blindly jump back into Islam.

Started reading the debates between Atheists and Muslims and found that I was no longer secure in my Atheist beliefs. This turned me into an Agnostic.

So then I went through the stages of trying to establish if Islam was fabricated by Muhammad SAW (Astaghfirullah). Also my wife (a non believing Christian) started asking me questions about Islam.
But after reading about what our beloved Prophet went through and how he lived his life and after reading the Quran there were no doubts anymore.

Me and my wife (Now a Muslim) turned to Islam and have found happiness and Peace ever since.

It is the best thing that has happened to us. I hope you find what you are looking for too...
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Chuck
11-17-2008, 11:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ponderer331
Thank You for your input.

The main point I wanted to make was that your initial decision was based upon faith whereas mine wasn't. And you seem to agree with me.
And that you concluded from his last post, even though his response is right. Interesting!
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ponderer331
11-17-2008, 11:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
And that you concluded from his last post, even though his response is right. Interesting!
I'm not sure what you mean. Care to elaborate? He agrees with me...
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Chuck
11-17-2008, 11:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ponderer331
I'm not sure what you mean. Care to elaborate? He agrees with me...
He said "The 90% of scientists you are referring to have no knowledge of Islam and have been let down by the contradictions in other religions"

Which is true. Western history of progress is based on conflict between science and religion, and that is the main reason most scientist in the west are not in religion even if any, and that forms a biased about religion in the mind of many scientist I've spoken to. That did not happen in history of Islamic scientific progress, and majority of them never lost religion. Actually, father of modern scientific method said that he become closer to God the more he studied nature.
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Hamayun
11-17-2008, 11:20 PM
Thats right Brother Chuck :)

Although there are always exceptions it is very rare to see a Muslim Scientist lose faith in Islam.

When those 90% of scientists are comparing Science to Religion they are usually referring to Christianity and are let down by claims such as "the earth is only a few thousand years old" and "the dinosaurs never existed".
Islam does not make any such contradictory claims :)
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YusufNoor
11-18-2008, 01:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ponderer331
Thanks for your answer.

My thought process goes something like this:

It is more important for me to find out what God expects out of me IF he exists instead of trying to figure out if he exists or not.

check out my link below, then i'll paste another In Sha' Allah!

Now, any given religion has more people who don't follow it than there are people who do. Also, the majority of people in the world are born and die in the religion of their parents/society. If a God of one of these religions was just, why would he do this?

perhaps we could hold out hope that Allah[swt] grades on a curve? maybe Allah[swt] wants to see how far we are willing to go to figure out what He wants from us?


How does he expect me to go through each religion and find out which is the right one when this is an extremely hard process to do objectively?

i don't think you (or anyone else) NEEDS to go through every religion. as a revert. it MAY be easier for me to see all the beauty in Islam as i am not blinded by culture and assibyyah.

Therefore I can only conclude that I cannot really do anything for God as it is pretty much impossible for me to figure out what he wants.

Allah[swt] does not NEED our worship or our duas, they only benefit us!

Makes sense?
AsSalamu Alaykum Akhi,

i new to the thread so i'll start here. please click on the link below and go way down to the bottom of the page and watch the 1st 2 parts of Foundations of Islamic Studies. i'm hoping that his presentation on Tawheed will make sense to you.

http://www.bilalphilips.com/bilal_pa...sk=view&id=288

if and when your done, i''l post a link to some work by a Mufti that absolutley blows me away. and another by a revert Sheikh that is pretty inclusive and explanatory.

May Allah[swt] make it easy on you, and may He grant you goodness in this life, goodness in the Akhira and may He save you from the punishment that is to come! Ameen!

:w:
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ponderer331
11-18-2008, 01:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
He said "The 90% of scientists you are referring to have no knowledge of Islam and have been let down by the contradictions in other religions"

Which is true. Western history of progress is based on conflict between science and religion, and that is the main reason most scientist in the west are not in religion even if any, and that forms a biased about religion in the mind of many scientist I've spoken to. That did not happen in history of Islamic scientific progress, and majority of them never lost religion. Actually, father of modern scientific method said that he become closer to God the more he studied nature.
I agree with your point on western history. However, the reason "Islamic scientists" never lose their religion is just because there are hardly any. I cannot find a single Muslim to ever make a significant modern contribution to the scientific community. How many Nobel Prize winners are Muslim?

I am not arguing Islam's historical contributions to science. I am stating that in today's society the reason you don't find many Muslim scientists leaving Islam is simply because there are few to begin with!

Besides, this is changing your argument. This is what Hamayun originally said:

A perfect example of that is you have scientists who are atheists but you also have a large number of scientists, doctors, astronomers etc who through their research in Biology, Chemistry, Physics found God and then later reverted to Islam.
It seems to me that he was using the examples of these scientists to suggest that science causes a large number of scientists to convert to Islam. I argue that quantitatively, the percentage is very small, and cannot even be used to support Islam.

We cannot speculate on what would happen IF there were a lot of Muslim scientists, or IF all scientists would read up on Islam. We can only see the world for what it is.

Also, I am assuming you mean Galileo. Galileo was tried as a heretic. We could go on and on about arguing whether he was an atheist or not, so I'll leave it at that.

I look at things as objectively as possible. You have to present the opposing side as strong as possible; what good does it do for critical thinking if you simply look at it weakly?
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جوري
11-18-2008, 02:07 AM
lol-- is holdng a nobel prize the only way to be esteemed as a scientist? I think the folks of china and Japan for all their advancement will be rather disappointed considering there are less than 6 chinese nobel prize winners!
and wait how many from Japan 5 --yes.. sad!


search the web sherlock for publications in the Annals of surgery, molecular biology, genetics etc etc and let me know which paper doesn't have a Muslim name on it?
Go look at washington DC top 130 doctors and count the Muslim names on it before you open your unwitting yap!

hilarious!
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Chuck
11-18-2008, 03:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ponderer331
I agree with your point on western history. However, the reason "Islamic scientists" never lose their religion is just because there are hardly any. I cannot find a single Muslim to ever make a significant modern contribution to the scientific community. How many Nobel Prize winners are Muslim?

I am not arguing Islam's historical contributions to science. I am stating that in today's society the reason you don't find many Muslim scientists leaving Islam is simply because there are few to begin with!
Conflict between religion and science in west is not new, it has been there since science started to progress. If there was a problem with Islam and science, most scientist in Islamic era of scientific progress would have moved away from Islam like during the start of scientific progress in the west. Modern science started with muslim scientists, and in the west it started to have problems with religion from the beginning it reached there.

format_quote Originally Posted by ponderer331
We cannot speculate on what would happen IF there were a lot of Muslim scientists, or IF all scientists would read up on Islam. We can only see the world for what it is.
I'm not speculating, I'm pointing out that there is background to it. It is hasty generalization without factoring in background.

format_quote Originally Posted by ponderer331
what good does it do for critical thinking if you simply look at it weakly?
What weakly?
Reply

Hamayun
11-18-2008, 05:35 PM
Bro ponderer what is the point? You have already established your opinion and drawn your conclusions. No point arguing. Good luck. :)
Reply

ponderer331
11-19-2008, 12:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
Conflict between religion and science in west is not new, it has been there since science started to progress. If there was a problem with Islam and science, most scientist in Islamic era of scientific progress would have moved away from Islam like during the start of scientific progress in the west. Modern science started with muslim scientists, and in the west it started to have problems with religion from the beginning it reached there.


I'm not speculating, I'm pointing out that there is background to it. It is hasty generalization without factoring in background.


What weakly?
The movement away from religion for prominent scientists (the fact that most scientsts are atheist/agnostic) is fairly new even if the conflict between science and religion isn't. What I was saying is that you cannot make the claim that goes like this:

Less Muslims become atheists after pursuing science, so Islam must have less of (if any) a conflict with science than other religions.

Anyway, my speculation point was directed at Hamayun, not you. See his previous posts.

Ok, I think my search here is done, as I can see where this is heading. I am writing an article on Delusion and Religion, and I will be using some of your posts here (especially Skye's :rollseyes ).

To see if Muslims lag behind in science today, I suggest you try to contact someone from someplace like the Royal Society or National Academy of Sciences or at least do a simple google search.

I'm out. Thank You all.
Reply

جوري
11-19-2008, 12:33 AM
According to a recent study most doctors believe in God and an afterlife. This conclusion apparently contradicts earlier research which showed that in general, people tend to become less religious as education and income levels rise.
The survey by Farr Curlin, a doctor and instructor at the University of Chicago, of 1,125 U.S. doctors, found that 76 percent believe in God and nearly 60 percent in some sort of afterlife.

Curlin, who oversaw the survey, says he was surprised, as the team did not realize physicians were this religious.

He says they suspect that people who combine an aptitude for science with an interest in religion and an affinity for public service are particularly attracted to medicine, as the responsibility to care for those who are suffering, and the rewards of helping those in need, resonate throughout most religious traditions.

The researchers also found that 90 percent of doctors said they attend religious services at least occasionally, and are more likely to describe themselves as 'spiritual' as distinct from religious, whereas for the general population, spirituality and religion appear to be more tightly connected.

They found that doctors and patients also differ on how they rely on God for help in coping with a major illness, as while most patients will look to God for strength, support and guidance, most doctors will instead try to make sense of the situation and decide what to do without relying on God.

Of the doctors surveyed, 5 percent were Hindu, 2 percent Muslim and 1 percent Buddhist, all much higher than those faiths are represented in the general population and in part reflecting the large number of foreign-born doctors who emigrate to the United States, the study said.

The report is published in the Journal of General Internal Medicine


http://www.news-medical.net/?id=11272

thus you should back up your bull with facts, not your opinion but if you plan on publishing on the annals of morons.. by all means be my guest!

cheers
Reply

جوري
11-19-2008, 12:57 AM
Here is another one quite relevant on how well Muslims are doing compared to their western counterparts

Middle Eastern immigrants were highly educated, with 49 percent holding at least a bachelor's degree, compared to 28 percent of natives.

Median earnings for Middle Eastern men were $39,000 a year compared to $38,000 for native workers.

they tend to be better-educated than native U.S. residents — about half hold bachelor's degrees, compared to 28 percent of natives. They also perform as well economically as natives — 30- and 40-year-old Middle Eastern males with a college education have the same median income as natives, and Middle East immigrants are more likely be self-employed.




Middle Eastern Immigrants in U.S. Educated, Prosperous, Study Says
Gannett News Service, August 15, 2002

(Also ran in Arizona Republic - 8/15)

WASHINGTON — Middle Eastern immigrants in the United States are well educated, earn more money than most Americans and are predominantly Muslim, according to a report released Wednesday.

They also are among the nation's fastest-growing immigrant groups, according to the report issued by the Center for Immigration Studies in Washington, a think tank that supports reducing the number of immigrants to the United States.

The report says the number of Middle Eastern immigrants increased from fewer than 200,000 in 1970 to almost 1.5 million in 2000. The overall number of foreign-born residents in the United States tripled to 31 million over the same period.

The report offers a rare portrait of an immigrant group that has received intense scrutiny and negative publicity since the Sept. 11 attacks.
Project MAPS, a survey of "Muslims in the American Public Square" conducted in 2001-2002 by researchers at Georgetown University, found that 86 percent of all Muslim professionals were concentrated in three careers: engineering, computer science, and medicine. Law, law enforcement, and politics accounted for a minuscule 0.6 percent. American Muslims, some demographers say, have also been voting well below their numbers in the population -- registering to vote at only half the national rate, according to the 2001 American Religious Identification Survey [PDF], a project of the Graduate Center of the City University of New York. "If they ever did play to their weight" in the electoral arena and in Washington, Muslims "would be a much more considerable force in public policy-making," says Steve Clemons, a Democrat who directs the American Strategy Program at the New America Foundation in Washington.

http://www.wilsoncenter.org/topics/p...ab_America.pdf

http://www.cis.org/articles/2002/mideastcoverage.html


Make sure when you quote me for your awaited 'compost' that you include links and articles enclosed so your work would stink less




:haha:

every couple of weeks, they let one of them loose on Li..
Reply

Chuck
11-19-2008, 02:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ponderer331
The movement away from religion for prominent scientists (the fact that most scientsts are atheist/agnostic) is fairly new even if the conflict between science and religion isn't.
I'm not aware of any such movement. New research goes against that opinion. Although, there always have been conflict going in the west between Christianity and science which has moved away many scientists from religion in history.

About two-thirds of scientists believe in God, according to a new survey that uncovered stark differences based on the type of research they do.
About two-thirds of scientists believe in God, according to a new survey that uncovered stark differences based on the type of research they do.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8916982/
format_quote Originally Posted by ponderer331
What I was saying is that you cannot make the claim that goes like this:
I'm not making claim, I'm pointing out flaw in your comparison. You are not isolating relevant factors.

Ok, I think my search here is done, as I can see where this is heading.
Looks like hasty research so far.
Reply

- Qatada -
11-19-2008, 08:40 AM
ponderer, you have to find your own way to Allah i.e. through reasoning and understanding. Try to put aside petty claims like other scientists don't believe in God while others do in modern times. That isn't going to increase or decrease you in faith in Allah. It's just drifting to another direction which is irrelevant.


I'll tell you some big points which make me question atheisms validity;



Throughout history, there has always been the question of what caused the universe to begin. People usually say God, the Originator of all things. And I agree with this. Let's see what the atheists say;

In the past, some kind of sneaky dude tried to argue that the universe was eternal without a beginning. that it's always been the way it has been. Sooo much philosophers took this stance, to the extent that some famous 'Muslims' even did i.e. Ibn Sina [avicenna] the philosopher (although its said he later repented from this false belief) etc.


Now turns out, Edwin Hubble finds out [in 1929] that the universe is expanding (with his Hubbal telescope), so it must have had a starting point. Uh-oh, all them people had made mistakes of an eternal universe, it had a beginning cause and a starting point.

Now atheists don't know, and can't prove scientifically who or what caused it. Therefore they've got a big missing answer which theists want an answer to. Theists keep their faith that this is how God caused the universe to begin.

Islam's view on the Big bang;
http://idawah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6


So atheists will say 'i dont know' clearly. Theists will say 'ha! God caused it'. Atheists will laugh (with some slight embarrassment) at theists, and theists will laugh at atheists for not knowing the answer. Theists will say, 'see, God knows we can believe in Him without seeing Him because of His signs through the logical reasoning and understanding He has given us'.



Another issue which theists want answering throughout history is who or what caused the universe to form the way it is today. Atheists like the past will not have much to argue except that 'it happened by chance'. Again, theists will say God controlled it and formed it to sustain life. Atheists will say it just happened so by chance and that this is why life is sustained. I.e. the earth being in the EXACT right place for life to be supported, if it was more in the direction of mars - we'd freeze to death, if abit near venus - we'd burn to death. We say God did it because He is wise and knowledgable and He wanted life to survive here - so He placed it in the right location.


We say that chaos does not cause harmony and control - especially for millions of years, atheists say 'it can happen, chance [or nature] can do it'. Now imagine this atheist says the word 'chance' or 'nature' - always replace it with a God who has control and knowledge, and there you go - you got the answer - God exists.



Thats our line of reasoning. :) If you want to read up on evolution, again refer to this link insha Allah;

http://idawah.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=6



Peace.
Reply

Hamayun
11-19-2008, 08:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ponderer331
The movement away from religion for prominent scientists (the fact that most scientsts are atheist/agnostic) is fairly new even if the conflict between science and religion isn't. What I was saying is that you cannot make the claim that goes like this:

Less Muslims become atheists after pursuing science, so Islam must have less of (if any) a conflict with science than other religions.

Anyway, my speculation point was directed at Hamayun, not you. See his previous posts.

Ok, I think my search here is done, as I can see where this is heading. I am writing an article on Delusion and Religion, and I will be using some of your posts here (especially Skye's :rollseyes ).

To see if Muslims lag behind in science today, I suggest you try to contact someone from someplace like the Royal Society or National Academy of Sciences or at least do a simple google search.

I'm out. Thank You all.
So basically in order to find your eeman you have to be a world class scientist? Anyone elses opinion doesn't count?

Doesn't look like you were searching at all Bro. You just came here to give us your opinions.
Also the fact that it seemed you were doing us a favour by "searching" says a lot about your personality.

Not that it matters but I lost whatever little respect I had for you.
Reply

mohammed_alim
11-19-2008, 08:52 PM
theres a gd video you could watch by Sheik Khalid Yasin, its called the purpose of life
Reply

czgibson
11-19-2008, 09:58 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
ponderer, you have to find your own way to Allah i.e. through reasoning and understanding. Try to put aside petty claims like other scientists don't believe in God while others do in modern times. That isn't going to increase or decrease you in faith in Allah. It's just drifting to another direction which is irrelevant.
Ponderer's had to put up with quite a lot of loaded adjectives in his short time here. It seems strange to see someone say "give me a reason to believe in god" and then get treated like that.

So atheists will say 'i dont know' clearly.
This is probably the most accurate part of your post. I'll check again, but I think pretty much every other sentence of your post contained some kind of mistake, untruth or strawman.

To be an atheist, you need to believe one thing:

There is no god. (Or, there are no gods, which amounts to the same thing.)

You don't have to have any specific belief about what caused the universe, whether the universe had a beginning or not, whether the Hubble telescope existed in 1929, or any number of other issues.

Too often, the religious will say things such as:

"An atheist would tell us it all happened by chance."

"An atheist would say it was all done by nature."

I think an honest atheist would have to say: "I don't know".

None of us do. Theists think they have found the answer; atheists think it's the wrong answer. And a wrong answer isn't really much better than no answer at all.

Peace
Reply

syilla
11-24-2008, 03:04 AM
the best way is to study islam... go to the best schools and learn from the best scholars... then only you will understand the truth about islam. And also if you really want to be guided to the truth... Pray to Allah and ask him to guide you to the truth.
Reply

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