When non Muslims appear to be guided

[Tony]

I have been experiencing "bumping into" christians from Abundant life church, some liv next door, I started a job and there is someone there who belongs to that church. Have had good rapor with some and have held good conversation. Although nothing can ever shake my love for Allah I am confused that some, in particular a couple who moved from Italy to be near the church, seem to be so blessed and guided. Money from unexpected sources, a car for free just when needed etc. I know Allah gives to whoever he decices but a non-beleiver could think this is the right path. I dont wish to offend anypeople who are not Muslim. Seems to me Allah is bringing me into contact with these perticylar people and I dont know why. Has anyone got any thoughts on this. Peace:sl:

[YusufNoor]

:sl:


i remember listening to a lecture by Mufti Ismail Menk [OK i listen to dozens and dozens of lectures by him!], a few points come to mind:

1) those who are not rightly guided MAY receive their "reward" in this life, because there is no reward fro them in the hereafter. still, make dua for them to be guided!

2) Allah[swt] tests those that He loves the most with many trials. IN FACT, if your life is going smoothly and there are no "bumps in the road" so to speak then you need to reflect on why Allah[swt] might be ignoring you.

3) at times Allah[swt] gives out of His bounty to test us! if Allah[swt] gives you everything that you need and more, you have no excuses not to turn back to Him! IN FACT, according to the Mufti, the pouring out of Allah's[swt] abundance may be a sign that He is angry with you!

you can listen to some of the Mufti's lectures here:

http://www.muftimenk.co.za/Downloads.html

listen to:

Examinations of Sabr...Pass or Fail

http://www.nazirakoob.com/menk/Vol1.html#Part4

and

Abdud Dunyaa (Slave of the World)

http://www.nazirakoob.com/menk/Vol2.html#Part8

the Social Conduct of A Muslim is excellent and the Tafseer sessions are done after Taraweeh. there are not complete Tafseer, but each year he highlights the Message in a different light, very beneficial.

:w:

[alcurad]

having money and possessions is not a sign of guidance. also, they might not be very far away from the teachings of islam, thus they seem happy and so on.

[جوري]

br. Yusufnoor is especially on to something and it can also be found on suret al'moemonoon.. those folks who are generally good, are usually given their reward in this life, so they are owed nothing on the day of recompense.. further confirmed by suret az'zalzalah where we are specifically told that whomever does an 'atom's weight' of goodness or evil shall see it...

there was a time when especially blessed Muslims thought, that Allah didn't love them on the account he wasn't trying them.. but we must always remember, whether in good or bad there is a lesson and a tribulation...
if rich how you'll use it?
if poor how you'll deal with it..

and each is his judgement with Allah swt

And Allah swt knows best

:w:

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[glo]

I have been experiencing "bumping into" christians from Abundant life church, some liv next door, I started a job and there is someone there who belongs to that church. Have had good rapor with some and have held good conversation. Although nothing can ever shake my love for Allah I am confused that some, in particular a couple who moved from Italy to be near the church, seem to be so blessed and guided. Money from unexpected sources, a car for free just when needed etc. I know Allah gives to whoever he decices but a non-beleiver could think this is the right path. I dont wish to offend anypeople who are not Muslim. Seems to me Allah is bringing me into contact with these perticylar people and I dont know why. Has anyone got any thoughts on this. Peace:sl:

Greetings, Tony

I think you are addressing two different issues in your post.

The first issue you raise is with regards to the guiding of non-believers.
Personally, I have no doubt that God guides non-believers. After all, how else would non-believers come to faith, if not by God's guidance?
Christianity teaches (and I think Islam does too) that God created all of us. We are all his creation, hence he cares for all of us!
Why then would he not want to give us all the opportunity to find him?

Whether we take up his offer, is up to us.
Christians believe that Jesus died for our salvation ... but it is up to each of us to choose whether we believe that.
Muslims believe that we are all originally born Muslims and that we either need to remain Muslims or become Muslims at some stage ... but it is up to each of us to choose whether we believe that.

The second issue you raise is with regards to material provisions for us.
I am not sure that having material things always equals God's guidance in our lives.
Some churches put great emphasis on God's material blessings (I have just googled Abundant Life church, and I cannot find any evidence from their website that they particularly hold that view). Personally, I tend to be wary of such churches.
Their thinking is an over-emphasis on God's promise to provide for us in our earthly life ... but I think there is a risk to distort Jesus' actual teachings. Material wealth is consistently presented by Jesus to be of little importance (except to provide for the poor and needy), even a hindrance in growing spiritually.
I did not become a Christian because I wanted a bigger house or a new car (and I still haven't got either of those :D), but because I believe that it is the best way to be in relationship with God, and to serve him.

That is not to say that people not often have a sense of God answering a prayer in the hour of need - and that need may be at times of a material nature. Perhaps a job or a place to live.
I am sure God does care for our well-being - spiritually and materially, and that he does provide.
But we shouldn't loose sight of the many blessings he gives us, which are not material. Our communities, friends and families, our health, joy, laughter, sharing in good times and in bad, providing for each other, etc, etc

Peace

[cute123]

i dont know my brother always says , there should be atleast 1 pain , or 1 problem in ur life else its not easy. and the least of the problem is money.

[Tony]

Thanks all, some very good feedback there. I didnt mean to say that material gain was relevant to being guided, onl that these people seemed to get the help they needed at the right time. Good point about being rewarded in this life for being good person but then no reward in the afterlife, this made a lot of sense. peace

[KAding]

Thanks all, some very good feedback there. I didnt mean to say that material gain was relevant to being guided, onl that these people seemed to get the help they needed at the right time. Good point about being rewarded in this life for being good person but then no reward in the afterlife, this made a lot of sense. peace

However, doesn't the Qu'ran teach that Allah will reward his followers in this life as well as the following?

Take: http://islam-qa.com/en/ref/12702/reward

Unless of course the Qu'ran teaches that Allah only rewards believers and does not actively punish disbelievers? Though that would seem somewhat inconsistent.

[Tony]

Sorry, do you mean that Allah does not punish the unbeleivers. Didnt understand your post. But I realise Allah gives to whom He wills and takes away from wkom He wills. Can I ask a question, Why are so many atheists such solid members of this forum, are you looking for proof or faith. I only ask with respect and peace

[KAding]

Sorry, do you mean that Allah does not punish the unbeleivers. Didnt understand your post. But I realise Allah gives to whom He wills and takes away from wkom He wills.

Well, clearly the Qu'ran teaches that believers are rewarded in this life, including with material well-being. For the sake of consistency wouldn't that imply that unbelievers do not get these rewards or are even punished for their disbelief?

Let me rephrase. Does the Qu'ran teach that disbelievers or even 'evil-doers' get punished in this life as well as the next?

Can I ask a question, Why are so many atheists such solid members of this forum, are you looking for proof or faith. I only ask with respect and peace

I look for neither. I'm here out of interest, nothing more nothing less. I don't seek to convert anyone, nor am I looking to be convinced. I just want to learn :).

[Tony]

Ok, as far as I can be sure at present not all Muslims are rewarded in this life, and at present I also except I havent the knowledge to disinguish any desciding factors in who is rewarded. I do accept that Allah knows all and that He is the greatest of all givers. And although I could be wrong I feel within my heart that some people of other or no faith will go to heaven, ie; Mother Theresa, Ghandi. Allah knows best. I have o say that I am happy there are people who are not Muslim in here as you help us to develop our faith, and it is a good thing to be questioned about faith as it clears up a beleivers veiw in certain areas. Peace

[جوري]

However, doesn't the Qu'ran teach that Allah will reward his followers in this life as well as the following?

Take: http://islam-qa.com/en/ref/12702/reward

Unless of course the Qu'ran teaches that Allah only rewards believers and does not actively punish disbelievers? Though that would seem somewhat inconsistent.

greetings Kading

A Muslims's greatest reward in this life is simply to be chosen to be Muslim..
whereas righteous Non-Muslims as per Suret Al'momenoon

فَذَرْهُمْ فِي غَمْرَتِهِمْ حَتَّى حِينٍ {54}

[Yusufali 23:54] But leave them in their confused ignorance for a time.

أَيَحْسَبُونَ أَنَّمَا نُمِدُّهُم بِهِ مِن مَّالٍ وَبَنِينَ {55}

[Yusufali 23:55] Do they think that because We have granted them abundance of wealth and sons,

نُسَارِعُ لَهُمْ فِي الْخَيْرَاتِ بَل لَّا يَشْعُرُونَ {56}

[Yusufali 23:56] We would hasten them on in every good Nay, they do not understand.

To sum it up.. money and children is the best this life has to offer, and indeed the Non-Muslims may have that in abundance until they perceive that they live righteous lives and that maybe God is hastening them the reward of their good deeds, however true victory and gain comes not in this life and in the here after..
if you browse suret Az-zalazalh.. you'll see that God states, he isn't unjust and those who do an atom's worth of good deeds shall see their reward as well an atom's worth of bad deeds.. -- quite possible all your supposed good deeds, you shall see its reward in this life.. and I don't see how that can be a bad thing for someone who doesn't believe in God all together..

there are other verses as well to allude, that if men weren't afflicted at all (because I can almost predict your next question) that they would revel in iniquity-- sometimes your affliction is for the benefit of another human being that God loves..


hope that is clear!

[Hafswa]

Tony,
The Bible says that " Every good and perfect thing comes from the Father above..." It also says that " No good thing shall He withhold from he whose walk is upright and blameless" and " My God shall supply ALL my needs, according to His riches in glory."

I beleive that in Islam too, Allah blesses those who deserve to be blessed not because they are special or have achieve something but because He deems you fit for the blessings because you are walking day by day, closer and closer to Him.

When you say non-believers i.e. non muslimahs appear guided, it is not to be measured on their wealth or what they have that you seemingly do not have but on their daily walk with God. They trust and believe that He provides..... He is their ALL.

I have a challenge for you, try and get close to them and talk to them. You might be amazed that they do not have anything
"special" but simply rely on God for their everything.

Get closer to God and enjoy the blessings as they flow....

[AvarAllahNoor]

Allah rewards all that worship him alone, many methods are used, he rewards the worthy.

[AntiKarateKid]

Has anyone here here thought that their wealth was a test?

It was said in a hadith that we would wish we had gotten nothing here because the reward of the hearafter was so much better.

If they have recieved blessings and obstiately refuse to contemplate their religion and come to Islam, then they are in for a surprise when they die. They already reacieved whatever good was coming to them in this life, what is now left for the next???

[Khalil_Allah]

The key issue in the first post was obviously that it appeared to convey that guidance and "blessings from Allah," or getting what you want/need at the right time (which is, indeed, a blessing from Allah, are the same thing.

It seems clear that you didn't mean to convey this, and rightfully so!


But I think I see the issue you are dealing with here. Maybe it would be illuminated by the following question: how do the most devout Muslims live in poverty while non-Muslims clearly receive the bounties of this world? And we all know that nothing happens without the work of Allah, so that would mean Allah is giving the bounties of this world to non-believers?

Two points I want to make:
1) I always talk about it, but Siratal Mustaqim! Righteous people are righteous people whether Muslim or not. Particularly so if they are righteous for the sake of God. Allah has chosen that they not receive the message of Islam in a way that makes sense to them and causes them to revert. Nevertheless, He no doubt sees their struggle to be righteous for His sake, and we all know that those who strive in the path of righteousness for the sake of God are rewarded (maybe with wealth or with a strong family or otherwise).

2) I think everyone who mentioned wealth and abundance as a sort of test are spot on! What is it like to be able to acquire everything you want and satisfy any whimsical desire that comes to you mind? For the righteous, it is no matter to them. Allah is all that matters and they know that the pleasures of this world are worth less to them than a drop of water to the ocean.
But wealth is most certainly a test for you if you don't already have unbreakable commitment to the righteous life. If you have someone who has everything in the world, but no sense of commitment to God or afterlife, the best she can hope for is that there is enough stuff to keep her satisfied for the rest of her life. And chasing these desires are likely to lead one into sin, because the strongest desires of this world, I think, are the taboo and sinful desires. And there is proof of this because the strongest physiological behavioral motivator in a man is his drive to procreate, and yet zinnah is one of the worst of sins.



This is why we all say MashAllah when someone comes and brags about his car or whatever. Allah has blessed this person in this world to have what he wants. But the real question is, how is he handling the test? Is he really content? Does he sin constantly?

[Hafswa]

Khalil,
The point is whether we are non muslimahs or buddhist or christians, we all inpart receive test and trials to make our imman stronger.We all cannot have our cake and eat it....God has to put something in our lives that reminds us who God really is.

It could be like you said, receiving blessings and being tested to see how we handle it and I like that you especially noted contentment. In a previous post:
http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...ml#post1032891
Sister Ramlah talked about how the things of this dunya seem to be more and more enticing and that her nafs was having a hard time keeping the desires away.....These are struggles that we have to endure becasue our reward is in heaven(Jannah).

Not receiveing wealth on this dunya is not restricted to muslimahs....there are Christians too livinging below the poverty level but that does not deter their faith.

Let me ask, when you say Masha' Allah to your frind with a fantastic car and a mansion by the beach, do you go back and ask Allah why He blessed so and so and left you out?? :?No, you accept it and pray that you also find favor before him. The concept is the same, Christians too are asked in Matthew 6:19-21 " Do not to store up for yourselves treasures on earth where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal, But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven where moth and rust do not destroy and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be."

All our treasures- be they remarks about how nice we are to people, kindness, demonstration of love to a brother and sister should all be heaven bound by returning the thanks to God who is the sole provider of all these things.

[MuslimCONVERT]

Well, clearly the Qu'ran teaches that believers are rewarded in this life, including with material well-being. For the sake of consistency wouldn't that imply that unbelievers do not get these rewards or are even punished for their disbelief?

Let me rephrase. Does the Qu'ran teach that disbelievers or even 'evil-doers' get punished in this life as well as the next?

The Qu'ran teaches that some disbelievers will recieve a torment in this life so that they may ponder and perhaps be guided. I.E. they may wonder why their life is so difficult and unblessed, and search for God, and His help, whereby being guided. Other disbelievers, particularly the hypocrites [that is, people who claim to believe in one God, but in their hearts do not believe] are rarely tested with trial and affliction, all of their good deeds being wasted on this life, and in the hereafter, according to one Hadith, they will come to Allah [swt] on the day of judgement with good deeds behind them the size of mountains and everyone will be impressed, until Allah [swt] destroys that mountain, and sends them to hell in humiliation.

But there can be exceptions to either rule... for example, a hypocrite Allah [swt] may test hard in order to bring him to the right path, and so on. I understand the Qu'ran, when it mentions *groups* such as "disbelievers" and "Hypocrits" to be speaking in general terms, implying that there may always be exceptions according to the wisdom of Allah [swt].

As for the believers, the Prophet Muhammad [saas] said that there will be some Muslims who have an easy life, and an easy death, and an easy hereafter, and we should all pray to be among them. -The implication being that some Muslims will not have an easy life or an easy death. But even if their life isn't easy, Allah [swt] will make them content, because there is a Hadith in which the Prophet Muhammad [saas] said that Allah [swt] will make everyone's way easy for him... meaning, if it is written for you that your life will be harder than others, Allah [swt] will still give you the ability to handle that with contentment.

That being said, everyone's life will have ups and downs according to our perception. Repeatedly the Qu'ran calls us to witness the changing of the seasons as a sign, giving life to the dead vegetation, and so on, and says that it is a sign to those who ponder. The Qu'ran mentions the lives of various Prophets, and one of the things constant between all of them is that their life was very difficult when they first started preaching monotheism to their people, but eventually the help of Allah [swt] came and they were delievered from distress and difficulty.

That saying "Night is always darkest before the dawn" is a very Islamic way of thinking. The Qu'ran says, "With every difficulty there is relief" and also says that sometimes Allah [swt] will test people so hard that even Prophets and messengers and their righteous followers will wonder when the help of Allah [swt] will come, and it is at that moment that they are rescued from pain and grief, or as the Qu'ran puts it, it is at that moment that "verily, the help of God is nigh..."

[Tony]

I just read that suplication to Allah is answered in three ways.Allah accepts it and grants whatbwas asked for, He delays its rewards to the next life or removes a problem equal in magnitude the Du'a (Ahmad,Bazzar,Abu Ya La and Hakim). So being given hardship from Allah is really and trully a blessing as "If the gates of Du'a are opened by man, the gates of mercy will be opened before him. And the most beloved thing for which Allah(swt) loves to be asked is safety." (Tirmidhi and Hakim). Peace

[syilla]

:salamext:

There are ever mentioning in the quran the differences of a believers and non-believers.

Just read the quran and you will be thankful to Allah swt that you are a muslim...
There are so many benefits of being a muslims and believers.

I can give you examples...but it is better for you to read it yourself. And you will understand even we are being tested ...it is always for the good. Nothing happened to a believer but only for his own good.

It is true that being a believer and a muslim alone it is not good enough...thats why in the quran is telling and remind us continuously to perfect ourselves to be the best muslims (at least less than perfect :) )

However, a believer is always the best in the eye of Allah subhanahuwata'ala. Just remember that :)

[themuffinman]

i read sumwhere i think it was a hadith or sumthing that allah provides even the kuffar through their idols or whatever means of worship they use but it doesnt mean they are on the correct path. i mean pre-islamic mecca is a great example isnt it? the keepers of the kabah made a killing off their idols did they not?

[Aqeel Ahmed]

:sl:
I know how it feels Yanal has a non believer that is smart and never finishes Homework nor studies for tests and Yanal feels the same way. I think these things are little tests from Allah to see how firm is our belief in him.:sl:

[glo]

I have been following this thread with interest.

There seems to be a tendency to interpret good things happening to other people differently, depending on whether they belong to one's own faith group or not.

For example, some Muslims seem to perceive good things happening to other Muslims as 'God's blessing on them', whereas they perceive good things happening to non-Muslims as 'non-believers receiving their reward in this life' or 'being tempted by God' or even 'being deceived by Satan'.
A Christian or follower of any other religion may perceive things similarly from their own perspective ...

I wonder, are we not being simplistic?
Are we not trying to put a human interpretation on things happening around us?

Isn't it the truth that good and bad things happen to all people from all religions and none?

I wonder if there are any statistics which would tell us whether followers of certain religions are more blessed than others or not, or whether the perception of being blessed may be a subjective one?

Peace :)

[سلثتحعرين!]

Does that work the other way around as well then? can god abandon some people?

I have had a horrid life with abuse, sexual abuse and rape. I turned on my own species and looked to animals for comfort.

I have since decided that i am on a test from Allah and there is a purpose for me, as every life is to be cherised.

But its been a very dark tunnel and finally im seeing the light.

[Hafswa]

Does that work the other way around as well then? can god abandon some people?

I have had a horrid life with abuse, sexual abuse and rape. I turned on my own species and looked to animals for comfort.

I have since decided that i am on a test from Allah and there is a purpose for me, as every life is to be cherised.

But its been a very dark tunnel and finally im seeing the light.

You said it..... It's a test of your faith. Of how you can rely on God even when everything in your world seems not to make sense at all. Isn't this why things are making sense now for you....

[NazariteofEhyah]

I have been experiencing "bumping into" christians from Abundant life church, some liv next door, I started a job and there is someone there who belongs to that church. Have had good rapor with some and have held good conversation. Although nothing can ever shake my love for Allah I am confused that some, in particular a couple who moved from Italy to be near the church, seem to be so blessed and guided. Money from unexpected sources, a car for free just when needed etc. I know Allah gives to whoever he decices but a non-beleiver could think this is the right path. I dont wish to offend anypeople who are not Muslim. Seems to me Allah is bringing me into contact with these perticylar people and I dont know why. Has anyone got any thoughts on this. Peace:sl:

Shalama,

This is where two worlds engage one another. You may be living and working in a area where Christianity is of the majority and so therefore you will see that many Christians value thier faith highly, and yes would surrender many things to be in the community of fellow Christians. Thus, Deity ought to see that their faith in Him is strenghtend in their lifes, so that they better met His Commandments and to honour the Convenant.

[NazariteofEhyah]

I wonder if there are any statistics which would tell us whether followers of certain religions are more blessed than others or not, or whether the perception of being blessed may be a subjective one?

Peace :)[/QUOTE]

Groups simply have different views and the groups views on one group is different then of a group other then that group. Yes, I agree its humanity who is attempting to define the events around us, in the tonques of men which is not the tongue of God. Furthermore I agree unconditionally that many make good and bad things look as part or dependent on His Will. The Truth is that they bend His Will just by claiming that good things are dependent on Him. That would be that we dont have to make choices, as God does everything.

[NazariteofEhyah]

Groups simply have different views and the groups views on one group is different then of a group other then that group. Yes, I agree its humanity who is attempting to define the events around us, in the tonques of men which is not the tongue of God. Furthermore I agree unconditionally that many make good and bad things look as part or dependent on His Will. The Truth is that they bend His Will just by claiming that good things are dependent on Him. That would mean that we dont have to make choices, as God does everything. God's WIll will be done, as we are instructed in the Lord's Prayer. But we should put His Will on par with good or bad things that happent to me. Its a principle of the Dominos Theory, where if we perform good deeds further good deeds might benefit us. Each respective individual can easily claim to be blessed. They perform His Will, they render Him powerless over them, and they reject the Convenant. Thus, claiming to be blessed is hyprocrisy, for it is others to give the bless and not to be claimed by the self.

[Yanal]

I also need some input as when I meet non Muslims sometimes I get the thought of why has Allah makes their life better then mine in looks,physical,mentally and the brain,why?

[NazariteofEhyah]

I also need some input as when I meet non Muslims sometimes I get the thought of why has Allah makes their life better then mine in looks,physical,mentally and the brain,why?

Doesn't the Qu'ran make some reference?

For the Jews read the Torah (Masoretic and Non-Masoretic)

For the Christians read the New Testament (Gospels of Matthew, Gospel of Mark, Gospel of Luke and Gospel of John)

[Azy]

For the religious among us, what would you expect the world to be like if there was no God to reward or test his followers?

[Indigåtor]

I also need some input as when I meet non Muslims sometimes I get the thought of why has Allah makes their life better then mine in looks,physical,mentally and the brain,why?

It's a matter of self-worth and esteem, for the most part. You perceive yourself as inferior to them when in fact you aren't. Besides, the Qur'an teaches that mankind is to be tested in all things - Muslim or not. It could be that they will find no lasting benefit in what they have, while you will receive a lasting reward for what you don't have, in one way or another. You have a severely negative image of yourself, my friend. I do believe the Qur'an refutes such thoughts or feelings. Equally, the Bibles for the Jews and Christians, because they too suffer from such negative thoughts although you may be unaware of it.

[aamirsaab]

For the religious among us, what would you expect the world to be like if there was no God to reward or test his followers?

What do you mean? Like economically, sociologically, politically? Gotta narrow it down a lot more.

[NazariteofEhyah]

For the religious among us, what would you expect the world to be like if there was no God to reward or test his followers?

Animalism, Totemism and an array of animal headed gods and goddesses!

Absolutely shocking. I wont think about it, it begs no question.

[Azy]

Absolutely shocking. I wont think about it, it begs no question.

Ho ho ho.

What do you mean?

I mean what you would observe in terms of individual prosperity or suffering. The course of one's life and one's Islamic observance or lack thereof appear (to me) to have no discernable correlation and as a few people have said, whether they are being rewarded, punished or tested seems to be entirely dependent on the observer.

I suppose what I'm getting at is that some seem to be able to say why things happened the way they did, that certain folk were being tested or rewarded and that would imply some kind of trend, as glo said, so long as these things weren't assigned randomly.

For example:

Does that work the other way around as well then? can god abandon some people?

I have had a horrid life with abuse, sexual abuse and rape. I turned on my own species and looked to animals for comfort.

I have since decided that i am on a test from Allah and there is a purpose for me, as every life is to be cherised.

But its been a very dark tunnel and finally im seeing the light.

You said it..... It's a test of your faith. Of how you can rely on God even when everything in your world seems not to make sense at all. Isn't this why things are making sense now for you....

If we work from this, a world without God might have less suffering, or it might just be allocated differently and some people are now artificially enriched when they would not otherwise have been. Would it all even out, or would life be better or worse for some groups of people and not others?

[NazariteofEhyah]

If we work from this, a world without God might have less suffering, or it might just be allocated differently and some people are now artificially enriched when they would not otherwise have been. Would it all even out, or would life be better or worse for some groups of people and not others

Maybe we should think that the people of the world would be more tolerant?

If we argue the position that God created both the good and the bad, then say that without God, there would be no or lessened suffering then some could issue the responce that there's so much suffering due to selfishness, and not God.

[Vito]

If everyone believes there is no afterlife, I doubt this world would be a much better place :hmm: The only thing stopping me from doing anything bad is my fear of the consequences from Allah, not the laws set by our govt.

[NazariteofEhyah]

If everyone believes there is no afterlife, I doubt this world would be a much better place :hmm: The only thing stopping me from doing anything bad is my fear of the consequences from Allah, not the laws set by our govt.

Belief or unbelief in a afterlife don't really act as paralimiters to an individuals behaviour. When it could be the scenario of an individual's personal convictions that he strives to be a moral as he can. He could learn from his past experiences, his witness of other's experiences (both of personal detriment and profit) and his own reflection. Having said this, does an Atheist who does good deeds, thinks good thoughts and doesn't believe in an afterlife deserve to be judged harshly? Assumably all are to be judged equally, and so therefore all are equal. There will be no discrimination is matter of judgement. So, we should better reflect this wisdom and treat each other fairly, for the measure we judge others will be measured against us. Considering reading Deuteronmy 1:9-18 and Matthew 7:1-2.
:thumbs_up

The laws of our government are just worldy annoyances! If I could get away with it, then Book of Proverbs would be the issue of justice!

[Vito]

Belief or unbelief in a afterlife don't really act as paralimiters to an individuals behaviour. When it could be the scenario of an individual's personal convictions that he strives to be a moral as he can. He could learn from his past experiences, his witness of other's experiences (both of personal detriment and profit) and his own reflection. Having said this, does an Atheist who does good deeds, thinks good thoughts and doesn't believe in an afterlife deserve to be judged harshly? Assumably all are to be judged equally, and so therefore all are equal. There will be no discrimination is matter of judgement. So, we should better reflect this wisdom and treat each other fairly, for the measure we judge others will be measured against us. Considering reading Deuteronmy 1:9-18 and Matthew 7:1-2.
:thumbs_up

The laws of our government are just worldy annoyances! If I could get away with it, then Book of Proverbs would be the issue of justice!

As far as the judging goes, thats not up to me. But what I can add is, that person for sure didn't pray 5 times a day, didn't attend the weekly jumaat, most likely didn't fast for ramadan, etc. etc. Most importantly, that person didn't believe in Allah. So from an Islamic point of view, doing good deeds and thinking happy thoughts will only take you so far.

[NazariteofEhyah]

As far as the judging goes, thats not up to me. But what I can add is, that person for sure didn't pray 5 times a day, didn't attend the weekly jumaat, most likely didn't fast for ramadan, etc. etc. Most importantly, that person didn't believe in Allah. So from an Islamic point of view, doing good deeds and thinking happy thoughts will only take you so far.

You cannot expect an Atheist to conform to Islamic practices. In the Nazarite/Nazarene/Nazari point of view such a behaviour is seen as leading them to Deity or some Prophet's instruction. I greatly approve of allow people to be, when people are left alone and respected they have the opportunity to use their free will and to make enquiries about the faith. From our standing we are to respect all men, of different faiths without condition.

[Vito]

I misunderstood the highlighted part and thought you were talking about if they deserved to be judged harshly by God. I didn't realize you were talking about being judged amongst other people. And well the answer is no. As you said in your last post, were supposed to respect others and be non judgmental.

[NazariteofEhyah]

I misunderstood the highlighted part and thought you were talking about if they deserved to be judged harshly by God. I didn't realize you were talking about being judged amongst other people. And well the answer is no. As you said in your last post, were supposed to respect others and be non judgmental.

As I have said before, non-judgement is Biblical! (It doesn't matter if their pagans, fire worshippers, idol worshippers, Christians, Muslims, Hindus and Nazara).

It to to the LORD (Ehyah amongst the Nazarenes) to which judgement is done.

[Willow]

br. Yusufnoor is especially on to something and it can also be found on suret al'moemonoon.. those folks who are generally good, are usually given their reward in this life, so they are owed nothing on the day of recompense.. further confirmed by suret az'zalzalah where we are specifically told that whomever does an 'atom's weight' of goodness or evil shall see it...

How so? Since Islam has predestination, how do you know that anyone will see anything other than what they are predestined for? I think your scales might be for naught if there is predestination.


I posted about predestination on another thread and it seems that someone wants to try to delve into it further and I am awaiting the response which is fine with me. I await with patience. But, there are quite a number of verses in the QUran and the hadiths about it.

Bukhari:V4B54N430, Bukhari:V6B60N473, Qur'an 97:1, Qur'an 64:11, Qur'an 3:145, Quran 2:272, and the historian, Ishaq:395. there might be more.

[جوري]

How so? Since Islam has predestination, how do you know that anyone will see anything other than what they are predestined for? I think your scales might be for naught if there is predestination.


I posted about predestination on another thread and it seems that someone wants to try to delve into it further and I am awaiting the response which is fine with me. I await with patience. But, there are quite a number of verses in the QUran and the hadiths about it.

Bukhari:V4B54N430, Bukhari:V6B60N473, Qur'an 97:1, Qur'an 64:11, Qur'an 3:145, Quran 2:272, and the historian, Ishaq:395. there might be more.

see answers given you on other thread, and do source your articles from the islamophobic site you actually got it from just to spare yourself the public expose..
I know off hand you don't have all 13 volumes of saheeh bukhari, or 9 volumes of Muslim or the rest or even read the Quran to actually engage me with what you think you know, least of which when mentioning that God had three daughters..

now with that said, there is positively no relevance whatsoever to the topic with what you'd ve just written. Is it difficult for Christians generally to focus as I have come to notice the trend
if you can't dazzle them with science baffle them with BS.. or drown them in sermons of the sin eating man God who forgo his own commandments or abrogated them through his nemesis... trust me you don't want to go down that path with me.. I bore easily with fundies!

all the best

[Follower]

"see answers given you on other thread, and do source your articles from the islamophobic site you actually got it from just to spare yourself the public expose..
I know off hand you don't have all 13 volumes of saheeh bukhari, or 9 volumes of Muslim or the rest "

Do you mean to say that even if it is a true hadith if it is from an islamophobic site it doesn't count?

Are you a Quran only Muslim?

[جوري]

"see answers given you on other thread, and do source your articles from the islamophobic site you actually got it from just to spare yourself the public expose..
I know off hand you don't have all 13 volumes of saheeh bukhari, or 9 volumes of Muslim or the rest "

Do you mean to say that even if it is a true hadith if it is from an islamophobic site it doesn't count?

Are you a Quran only Muslim?

you know all about isnad and true ahadiths because you are studied in the matter?

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

Christian belive in Allah they just think Jesus was his son instead of a prophet. I think the real issue for you is athiest who are so "blessed"

[YusufNoor]

:sl:


i was thinking about this thread when i heard Bashar Shala give a lecture on the the Man with 2 Gardens from Surat Al Kahf. i posted this in another section:

32: And present to them an example of two men: We granted to one of them two gardens of grapevines, and We bordered them with palm trees and placed between them [fields of] crops.
33: each of the two gardens produced its fruit and did not fall short thereof in anything. And We caused to gush forth within them a river.
34: And he had fruit, so he said to his companion while he was conversing with him, "I am greater than you in wealth and mightier in [numbers of] men."
35: And he entered his garden while he was unjust to himself. He said, "I do not think that this will perish - ever.
36: And I do not think the Hour will occur. And even if I should be brought back to my Lord, I will surely find better than this as a return."
37: His companion said to him while he was conversing with him, "Have you disbelieved in He who created you from dust and then from a sperm-drop and then proportioned you [as] a man?
38: But as for me, He is Allah , my Lord, and I do not associate with my Lord anyone.
39: And why did you, when you entered your garden, not say, 'What Allah willed [has occurred]; there is no power except in Allah '? Although you see me less than you in wealth and children,
40: It may be that my Lord will give me [something] better than your garden and will send upon it a calamity from the sky, and it will become a smooth, dusty ground,
41: Or its water will become sunken [into the earth], so you would never be able to seek it."
42: And his fruits were encompassed [by ruin], so he began to turn his hands about [in dismay] over what he had spent on it, while it had collapsed upon its trellises, and said, "Oh, I wish I had not associated with my Lord anyone."
43: And there was for him no company to aid him other than Allah , nor could he defend himself.
44: There the authority is [completely] for Allah , the Truth. He is best in reward and best in outcome.
45: And present to them the example of the life of this world, [its being] like rain which We send down from the sky, and the vegetation of the earth mingles with it and [then] it becomes dry remnants, scattered by the winds. And Allah is ever, over all things, Perfect in Ability.
46:Wealth and children are [but] adornment of the worldly life. But the enduring good deeds are better to your Lord for reward and better for [one's] hope.

summing up a lecture by Bashar Shala:

Allah[SWT] gave this man A TREMENDOUS BLESSING! not just one garden [a jannah] BUT TWO! and a river running right down the middle to water them, along with date/palm trees to shield them from the wind! he thought that NOTHING could change his status!

what did all this wealth do to him?

"I am greater than you in wealth and mightier in [numbers of] men."
remember Shaytan said that he was better than Adam!

then: And he entered his garden while he was unjust to himself. He said, "I do not think that this will perish - ever.
now he has forgotten La Hawla wa La Quwata Illah Billah! has he imagined himself a god now?

and next: And I do not think the Hour will occur.
Nowuthubillah, now he denies the resurrection!

and then: And even if I should be brought back to my Lord, I will surely find better than this as a return."
now he's iffy on the resurrection, BUT he is already claiming his portion on that day! has he forgotten who is Maliki Yawmid Deen?

has this wealth benefited him at all?

what about the "poor man?"

His companion said to him while he was conversing with him, "Have you disbelieved in He who created you from dust and then from a sperm-drop and then proportioned you [as] a man?

Alhumddulillah, this man IS a believer! we are dust, water and clay! EVERYTHING we have comes from Allah[SWT]!

But as for me, He is Allah , my Lord, and I do not associate with my Lord anyone.

MashaAllah, the brother has Tawheed!

And why did you, when you entered your garden, not say, 'What Allah willed [has occurred]; there is no power except in Allah '?

Allahu Akbar, he realizes that Allah, Alhumdulillah, is Rabbil AlAmeen! the creator, cherisher, sustainer, and healer of this and all of the worlds!

Although you see me less than you in wealth and children, It may be that my Lord will give me [something] better than your garden

Alhumdulillah, it is the Qadr of Allah[SWT]! the brother is on the straight path! [Siratul Mustaqeem!]

and who knows: and will send upon it a calamity from the sky, and it will become a smooth, dusty ground,
Or its water will become sunken [into the earth], so you would never be able to seek it.

again, La Hawla wa La Quwata Illah Billah!


so what happened?

And his fruits were encompassed [by ruin], so he began to turn his hands about [in dismay] over what he had spent on it, while it had collapsed upon its trellises, and said, "Oh, I wish I had not associated with my Lord anyone."

did taking himself as a partner with Allah help him? could he aid himself?

And there was for him no company to aid him other than Allah , nor could he defend himself.

why?

There the authority is [completely] for Allah , the Truth. He is best in reward and best in outcome.


you see: Wealth and children are [but] adornment of the worldly life.

Shaytan tries to beautify the dunya! that is how he traps us!

is there anything better?

But the enduring good deeds are better to your Lord for reward and better for [one's] hope

there you have it! "enduring good deeds" is what you would call "sticking to the halal"

when you feel alone, head to the Masjid! and remember and ponder these Ayats!

the Jannah that Allah[SWT} has promised us is more enduring than any "Shaytanized Dunya!"

MashaAllah, Brother Bahsar Shala does a wonderful job discussing these Ayats:

http://www.pleasantviewschool.com/me..._Surah_Al-Kahf

3rd lecture down the Man of the Two Gardens! give it a listen! In Sha'a Allah, you will learn something and your heart will be touched!

the lecture IS better than what i wrote!

:w:

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

Also do not the Bible and the Torah contain some truths? They are considered, "people of the book," after all. Can not non Muslims learn from and emulate Muslims? Thus making them guided by behaving in such ways? So I ask. Why couldn't a non Muslim be guided?

*doesn't get into his views*

[alcurad]

truth intermingled with non-truth. not a very good mix.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

my view is that they could be indeed blessed and being guided by Allah towards islaam. Perhaps if they stay as sincere as Salman Al-Farsi they will ultimately reach islaam.


Everyone who desires guidance IS WHETHER YOU BELIEVER IT OR NOT BEING GUIDED! We are just too naive to sometimes see it! in the end... the ultimate end depends on the paths we choose, are we strong enough to believe sincerely through the tribulations? or will we be swayed by shaytaan!


the ones you came in contact with, make dua' they find islaam... make dua they find it...

[YusufNoor]

Also do not the Bible and the Torah contain some truths?

yes

They are considered, "people of the book," after all.

yes

Can not non Muslims learn from and emulate Muslims?

yes

Thus making them guided by behaving in such ways?

yes

So I ask. Why couldn't a non Muslim be guided?

that is the point of da'wah, but not the thread

*doesn't get into his views*

if we could just get Muslims to learn from Muslims, we might be on our way...

:w: