question for non-muslims

[Ummu Sufyaan]

okay, in islam when we Muslims are struck by some calamities or are facing hardships, etc certain supplications prescribed which have some kinda handsome reward behind it :statisfie:-[ ...so by saying these in times of harship, we hope for a reward, which kind of helps to reduce (well atleast for me) the severity of the harship...get me?

but as non muslims such rewards aren't sought, because they arent prescribed:)

so my question is: how do you non Muslims go through hardships..i mean whats your motivation to keep you patient, etc...

[Grace Seeker]

so my question is: how do you non Muslims go through hardships..i mean whats your motivation to keep you patient, etc...

You realize that to answer that question you are actually asking me to bear witness to my faith. I am happy to do so, but I wouldn't want someone to accuse me of proselytizing.

[جوري]

You realize that to answer that question you are actually asking me to bear witness to my faith. I am happy to do so, but I wouldn't want someone to accuse me of proselytizing.

I don't think there is any danger of that happening Gene.. no offense!

peace

[Woodrow]

You realize that to answer that question you are actually asking me to bear witness to my faith. I am happy to do so, but I wouldn't want someone to accuse me of proselytizing.

Gene, I suspect I know what your answer will be. I think it would be a good thing if you do post it, to help clear up some of the misconceptions we have about each other. I do understand that if your reply is taken out of context of this thread it would be blatant prozelytizing. But, in the interest of this thread and this question I believe that in the interest of general knowledge it needs to be answered and honestly answered by a Christian.

I ask all mods to take no action regarding your answer on this thread. If I see it has gotten out of hand I will close the thread myself, with no infractions against any member.

In the event I am not available, I ask any mod who thinks it is out of hand to simply close the thread and I will review it when I can. (I am currently on the road again, with occasional breaks from driving I will be entering the lower Rockies soon and expect to intermittently loose internet connection on the laptop.)

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[KAding]

so my question is: how do you non Muslims go through hardships..i mean whats your motivation to keep you patient, etc...

Good question! I don't know. In the end the hardship we suffer is the same, but religion might indeed provide comfort, especially when you lose family members or friends. Atheists might not have a benevolent deity to fall back on, but I would think that other religions, such as Christianity, offer the same level of comfort to their believers.

The humanist response would of course be to put your faith in fellow human beings at such times of hardship and not in a (from our perspective) non-existent deity. Putting energy in a fantasy is not going to help. But not all atheists are humanists of course.

More broadly the non-believers perspective would IMHO be that this one life is all we got, so we better make the best of it and live it to our fullest. We are in control of our own life, not at the mercy of a deity that is "testing" us. Nevertheless, like religious people I would think that most non-believers believe that to a large extend it is our own actions and choices that determine how we end up in life, whether we find happiness or not. In my opinion life is a constant quest to improve yourself, not to please a deity, but because of the belief that good actions and good behavior are the path to personal happiness, as it will be reciprocated and simply because we as social and empathic creatures feel better when doing good.

All said and done though, I do think religious people who believe in divine intervention and an afterlife are at an advantage when dealing with hardship. Note though that from my perspective it is a choice between believing in a fantasy (ie. being misguided and believing there is deity out there that is looking out for you) or facing the cold hard truth. Mind you, I don't really see anything wrong with embracing a fantasy if it really shields me from pains I would otherwise not be able to handle (or would I?). But it simply isn't an option when you don't believe.

But lets be honest here, I don't know! I've never been a Muslim, so I can't really compare! Are religious people happier because their religion helps them overcome times of hardship? I don't know! Does it mean non-religious people have a higher chance of falling into, say, a depression after a major set back? Or maybe people who think they need more comfort to deal with hardships are also more likely to become religious, exactly because they seek that 'comfort', they seek something that many atheists simply don't seek. Again, I don't really know. In the end how someone deals with hardship is so incredibly depended on the individual in question, it depends on someones character and their personal situation, both of which are about a lot more than someones religious beliefs.

[Tony]

B4 I embraced Islam I smoked my body weight in skunk dailly, after 19 years of trying to stop self anaesthetising I converted and realised I no longer wanted to block out hardships and pain. Allahs love and serving Him is more than enouh. :sl:

[Qingu]

okay, in islam when we Muslims are struck by some calamities or are facing hardships, etc certain supplications prescribed which have some kinda handsome reward behind it :statisfie:-[ ...so by saying these in times of harship, we hope for a reward, which kind of helps to reduce (well atleast for me) the severity of the harship...get me?

but as non muslims such rewards aren't sought, because they arent prescribed:)

so my question is: how do you non Muslims go through hardships..i mean whats your motivation to keep you patient, etc...

I think to some extent it depends on the hardship.

But I like a quote from the Dalai Lhama (even though I'm not a Buddhist):

"If there is a problem and you can do something to change it, then why worry? You have the power to make it better, so do it.
And if there is a problem and you can do nothing to change it, then why worry? It is out of your hands, so don't stress yourself out."

I also think it's important to maintain perspective. I live in modern America: whatever problems I have are nothing compared to someone living in Afghanistan, who has to worry about starving or even getting blown up on a daily basis.

Something else that helps me through rough patches is the fact that I'd rather be alive now than at any point in history. I think the world is getting better, and I'm really curious to see what happens next.

[KAding]

I think to some extent it depends on the hardship.

But I like a quote from the Dalai Lhama (even though I'm not a Buddhist):

"If there is a problem and you can do something to change it, then why worry? You have the power to make it better, so do it.
And if there is a problem and you can do nothing to change it, then why worry? It is out of your hands, so don't stress yourself out."

An excellent quote! In the end you have to rely on your own strength and invest in yourself.

I also think it's important to maintain perspective. I live in modern America: whatever problems I have are nothing compared to someone living in Afghanistan, who has to worry about starving or even getting blown up on a daily basis.

Something else that helps me through rough patches is the fact that I'd rather be alive now than at any point in history. I think the world is getting better, and I'm really curious to see what happens next.

I share that sentiment, I'm also quite optimistic about our future. I notice that many Muslims on this forum feel differently though, you notice that "end of time" thinking is quite popular. Maybe because of Islamic doctrine there is always a focus on the rear-view-mirror, on the golden age when the Prophet was still alive. I suppose from that perspective it has only been going downhill from there on. I get the impression that non-believers are more focused on the future and less on a supposed glorious past.

[Tony]

You most definatley do not have to rely on your own strength, the fundamental point of religion is to accept strength from the creator. And all of time is equally glorious. For a supposed thinker you have very narrow blinkers, you protest too much and I think you are out to discredit Islam. Its your choice and hellfire is eternal. Enjoy. Allahu Akbar

[Keltoi]

The Christian attitude towards suffering and hardship is all about putting trust in God. People of faith will get diseases, suffer injury, etc just as everyone else. We look to God to give us the strength to make it through.

I don't believe many Christians expect a reward as a result of hardship, I think it is more about learning things about ourselves and our relationship with God. I suppose that could be seen as a "reward" but I think of it more as a lesson. Of course you may die from a disease, but that doesn't mean something special didn't occur before your death. A new outlook or a new understanding.

[Wilma_Hum]

okay, in islam when we Muslims are struck by some calamities or are facing hardships, etc certain supplications prescribed which have some kinda handsome reward behind it :statisfie:-[ ...so by saying these in times of harship, we hope for a reward, which kind of helps to reduce (well atleast for me) the severity of the harship...get me?

but as non muslims such rewards aren't sought, because they arent prescribed:)

so my question is: how do you non Muslims go through hardships..i mean whats your motivation to keep you patient, etc...

Is religion your only motivation?
I find belief helps but it surly is not a major motivator.

[Ummu Sufyaan]

thanks you for your replies...

Is religion your only motivation?

I find belief helps but it surly is not a major motivator.[/QUOTE]
for me yh, religion is my main motivator, but not my only :)

You most definatley do not have to rely on your own strength, the fundamental point of religion is to accept strength from the creator. And all of time is equally glorious. For a supposed thinker you have very narrow blinkers, you protest too much and I think you are out to discredit Islam. Its your choice and hellfire is eternal. Enjoy. Allahu Akbar

Agreed!!!

[Gator]

certain supplications prescribed which have some kinda handsome reward behind it :statisfie:-[ ...so by saying these in times of harship, we hope for a reward, which kind of helps to reduce (well atleast for me) the severity of the harship...get me?

Interesting. Could you describe these supplications. Is this just general praying and the reward is heaven or specific rituals designed to get a certain reward here on earth (i.e. getting you out of your hardship).

For me, the reward for getting through a hardship is a better life for me and my family. So that's a huge motivation.

Thanks.

[KAding]

You most definatley do not have to rely on your own strength, the fundamental point of religion is to accept strength from the creator. And all of time is equally glorious. For a supposed thinker you have very narrow blinkers, you protest too much and I think you are out to discredit Islam. Its your choice and hellfire is eternal. Enjoy. Allahu Akbar

Err imsad. What exactly did I say that upset you so much? Perhaps I can learn something from it.

Keep in mind that this thread explicitely asked for a non-Muslim perspective though.

[Tony]

All of it, maybe my problem though, Find I misinterpret text, hard to get true emotion within statements. I offer my apologies if I am wrong. Peace

[Pygoscelis]

Err imsad. What exactly did I say that upset you so much? Perhaps I can learn something from it.

Keep in mind that this thread explicitely asked for a non-Muslim perspective though.

I find this reaction common. A lot of believers lash out when you make the assertion that you don't need God to be good or that people can be strong enough to get through hardship without turning to religion. I think some may see it as a threat to their worldview.

[Tony]

I find this reaction common. A lot of believers lash out when you make the assertion that you don't need God to be good or that people can be strong enough to get through hardship without turning to religion. I think some may see it as a threat to their worldview.

wrong it seemed like wording was derogatory to Muslims, I have offered apologies. And what you are saying is nothing to do with the comment, of course people do not need God to be strong, I said people ask God for strength, like I am now. some people just like to attack any point for the sake of it

[KAding]

All of it, maybe my problem though, Find I misinterpret text, hard to get true emotion within statements. I offer my apologies if I am wrong. Peace

I apologize and I will attempt to be more tactful in the future. Obviously there are many people here who passionately believe in a God. Its just that my beliefs are as 'obvious' to me, which might mean I sound a bit too demeaning from time to time.

[Tony]

I apologize and I will attempt to be more tactful in the future. Obviously there are many people here who passionately believe in a God. Its just that my beliefs are as 'obvious' to me, which might mean I sound a bit too demeaning from time to time.

Peace and respect look forward to discussion with you in future.

[K.Venugopal]

Children need to depend. Grown ups who are not spiritual need to depend. [By spiritual I mean the crux of religious teachings - to become free from emotional dependence.] When we are on the path of spirituality, the more we progress, the lesser will be our dependence on the external (for emotional sustenance) and the lesser will we turn to God for anything, for we would welcome everything as a means of understanding it. We need not be cry babies, shrieking to God, help, help.

[Follower]

I have prayed to GOD during a hardship and He has sent the Holy Spirit to comfort me. It is immediate, almost before the complete thought is prayed the Holy Spirit is rigft there comforting.

The Holy Spirit has also answered me when I have worried about someone's faith.

Do you mean Muslims wait for a reward in this life or the next?

[Grace Seeker]

so my question is: how do you non Muslims go through hardships..i mean whats your motivation to keep you patient, etc...

You realize that to answer that question you are actually asking me to bear witness to my faith. I am happy to do so, but I wouldn't want someone to accuse me of proselytizing.

Gene, I suspect I know what your answer will be. I think it would be a good thing if you do post it, to help clear up some of the misconceptions we have about each other. I do understand that if your reply is taken out of context of this thread it would be blatant prozelytizing. But, in the interest of this thread and this question I believe that in the interest of general knowledge it needs to be answered and honestly answered by a Christian.

Ramlah, my apologies for taking several days to further respond to you. It is some of those very hardships that I am dealing with. I have had to place my mother into a nursing home as she is no longer capable of taking good care of herself and is not even cooperating with those living with her who might try to help her. Additionally, some of these people appear to have taken financial advantage of her. She is destitute, and only has given me power of attorney for health care but not financial affairs, meaning that I don't have the legal authority to stop people from stealing from her. And that is just the beginning.

So, I'm a little strung out under all of the pressure and stress. And you ask, what's my motivation to keep me patient?

1) My love for my mother. I know that if I am to help her that I must persevere. It is just that simple. I don't have the option of allowing my feelings of being overwhelmed to actually win. Therefore, I will go forward whatever the cost. I will do this because I care about the outcome and am willing and able to face what I must to provide the best care avaiable for her.

Now this illustration is obviously taken from my mom's circumstances. But I have other pressures and hardships I am dealing with at this same time. And bearing those hardships are often, like with my mom, just other instances of saying I do so because I care enough to pay the cost of caring.

2) I am coordinating the long-term recovery of my community following a flood that left 178 families damaged, many homeless. Everyday there are new issues to deal with, new possiblities, new challenges. None of us who are working on this receive any sort of compensation. In fact some of us are vilified by the very people we are trying to help because we aren't doing it in a way that they would prefer for their individual case but are considering the community as a whole. Why do we bother? Why do we endure? Again because we care. Speaking for myself, I feel called to do this work as a outgrowth of my own experience of receiving God's love in my life and realize that he calls me to serve others in his name. If he was mocked, spit upon, and crucified for what he came to do, I should not think that I who serve in his name will necessarily find life any easier.

3) Jesus himself tells us that we must each pick up our cross and follow him. I don't think that these were empty words. Those that seek to be followers of Jesus must understand that it isn't always going to be easy. There is a cost to being Christ's disciple and we either bear it knowingly and gladly or we probably will find we aren't willing to bear it at all. So why do I? Because I have received what I consider to be an immeasurable gift from my Lord, and there isn't anything I wouldn't do for him that he asks of me.

A true story coming out of the Vietnam War begins with two soldiers under heavy attack in the jungle. The first man has his leg blown off by a mine and the second takes shrapnel wounds to his chest. As they await rescue, the medivac heliocopter coming for them is blown out of the sky. At that point the man with the chest wound got to his feet and began to drag the other man who had no leg out of the jungle. The man who couldn't walk told his friend to let him go and to save himself, but the first man refused to quit. He said, "If you die, I'm going to die with you." And somehow he got them out of the jungle together.

The men stay in touch through the years and one day the man with just one leg gets a note from his friend, who has since moved to England, that (completely unrelated to anything they experienced together in the war) he has come down with epiletic siezures and is looking for a nurse. At this the friend in America sells his home and moves to England to take care of his friend who drug him out of the jungle. When someone comments on this act of altruism in tending to his friend who needed constant care, his only response was: "After what he did for me, there isn't anything I wouldn't do for him."

That sentiment is exactly how I feel about Jesus. So, if there is something that he asks of me that is a little hard to endure, I try to remember what it is that he has already endured for me, and it makes me glad to do whatever he might ask.

4) Of course there are plenty of hardships that are not an act of caring for another. We ourselves get sick. Sometimes we are taken advantage of by others. We lose a job. A disaster destroys our house. Bad things happen to good people, including ourselves. In times like this I think of my friend John MacAllilly. John and I entered seminary together. His brother and I had taught Sunday school together years before. And we both had daughters named Rebecca only a year apart in age. In May 1982, John's 2-year old daughter came down with a case of the flu. But she didn't get over it as kids do. A couple of days later they were at the hospital and Rebecca was in critical condition with viral menningitis. Rebecca died the weekend of graduation. Literally thousands of people prayed for her, and she still died. I remember talking to John afterward, and his words still speak to me: "We live in a world where children die. It isn't something I wanted, but it is something I have to accept. Should I expect that just because I am a Christian that I and my family will be spared all of the tragedies of human life? I would will it if I could, but that is not the world we live in. So, either I trust God to have the best plan for my life and for Rebecca's and entrust her to God or I don't. I've chosen to trust in God, and I trust him enough to trust him with Rebecca as well. I don't pretend to understand his will, but I can accept it."

Jesus said, "In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33). So, while we don't always understand the reasons for our troubles, we do understand that they are not the end of the story for us either. That whatever it is that we must face and deal with in this life, and we all must face some things we do not want, that there is more to this life than living or dying and trying to make it through the night. So as a Christian, I trust my life, such as it is, to the God who made me for his purposes not my own. And with many a fellow believer before me, I pray this prayer at least once a year when I renew my personal covenant with God. (This is not a required supplication within Christendom, just something I have taken to doing the first of every year.)

I am no longer my own but yours. Put me to what you will, rank me with whom you will; put me to doing, put me to suffering; let me be employed for you or laid aside for you, exalted for you or brought low for you; let me be full, let me be empty, let me have all things, let me have nothing; I freely and wholeheartedly yield all things to your pleasure and disposal. Glorious and blessed God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, you are mine and I am yours. So be it. Let this covenant now made on earth be fulfilled in heaven. Amen.

May I ever be faithful in keeping myself at his disposal, for he has already proved faithful in having secured his salvation for me, and thus I have entrusted all of my life, my family, friends, and my fortune to him. May I never walk away from that promise I have made.

[Ummu Sufyaan]

thanks all for the replies, interesting indeed...

Interesting. Could you describe these supplications. Is this just general praying and the reward is heaven or specific rituals designed to get a certain reward here on earth (i.e. getting you out of your hardship).
Thanks.

Heres a translation of a few I managed to find…

"there is no god except Allaah, the All-Mighty, the Forbearing; there is no god except Allaah, the Lord of the Mighty Throne; there is no god except Allaah, Lord of the heavens, Lord of the earth and Lord of the noble Throne).”

"O Ever-Living One, O Everlasting One, by Your mercy I seek help."

"Allaah, Allaah, my Lord, I do not associate anything with Him"


"O Allaah, I am Your slave, son of Your slave, son of Your female slave, my forelock is in Your hand, Your command over me is forever executed and Your decree over me is just. I ask You by every Name belonging to You which You named Yourself with, or revealed in Your Book, or You taught to any of Your creation, or You have preserved in the knowledge of the unseen with You, that You make the Qur’aan the life of my heart and the light of my breast, and a departure for my sorrow and a release for my anxiety"

[ZarathustraDK]

so my question is: how do you non Muslims go through hardships..i mean whats your motivation to keep you patient, etc...

Hardships broaden your experience of life. The more abysmal things you've lived through, the more you appreciate the luxuries you have here and now. The prospect of having the given hardship eventually end is enough to keep one afloat.

Of course, prolonged amounts of hardships can get to anyone. I don't think faith matters much, it only works when one is clear-headed. Stress, physical and mental pain, stuff like that can break anyone if it goes on 24/7, that's why torture works.

[K.Venugopal]

Loving God is one thing. But depending on God?

[Grace Seeker]

Loving God is one thing. But depending on God?

Why not? I know I can't earn his love by somehow being the perfect servant because I am in fact imperfect. Thus, if I am to experience God's love in my life, I am dependent on him to love me even in the midst of my imperfectness.

[Ummu Sufyaan]

Loving God is one thing. But depending on God?

it makes perfect sense...you trust and depend on those that you love...no?

[Converse02]

so by saying these in times of harship, we hope for a reward...so my question is: how do you non Muslims go through hardships..i mean whats your motivation to keep you patient, etc...

If one is motivated and keeps patient because they hope for a reward, and another is motivated and keeps patient because they simply want to and can summon that strenght from within, who do you think is the more noble and stronger person?

Some can say what keeps me motivated and patient is my vision of the future and world, family, empathy, and so on. At the very least, one can say what keeps me going is that I have to look in the mirror every morning. I want to like the person in that mirror and like the deeds they've done. It may not be enough for everyone, but it is enough for me.

[Wyatt]

I have the impression that this is a lot of the reason why religions are around. People naturally go through hardships, thus deities are a popular form of fallback. It's just always good to have a 'friend' there with you, but because I don't believe in a certain god, I feel independent in everything I do and never look for supernatural help or guidance.

It's like a smoker asking non-smokers how they go through their troubles. Haha. Sometimes us non-smokers don't need to go the most comforting way to get through life.

We rely on ourselves to make the best out of everything, which may really shape one's character in a way having religion may not, especially philosophically.

[Not comparing Islam or religions to smoking.]

[Woodrow]

I have the impression that this is a lot of the reason why religions are around. People naturally go through hardships, thus deities are a popular form of fallback. It's just always good to have a 'friend' there with you, but because I don't believe in a certain god, I feel independent in everything I do and never look for supernatural help or guidance.

It's like a smoker asking non-smokers how they go through their troubles. Haha. Sometimes us non-smokers don't need to go the most comforting way to get through life.

We rely on ourselves to make the best out of everything, which may really shape one's character in a way having religion may not, especially philosophically.

[Not comparing Islam or religions to smoking.]

If we use that for an explanation as to why religions exist, what would be the reason that many people are not religious?

I see the fact that atheists exist as being strong evidenc that belief in God(swt) is not a simple natural method for people to rely on during hardship.

[Trumble]

If we use that for an explanation as to why religions exist, what would be the reason that many people are not religious?

I see the fact that atheists exist as being strong evidenc that belief in God(swt) is not a simple natural method for people to rely on during hardship.

I don't see why. There's no reason that just because it 'works' for some in that respect it must work for all. People are different.

[Wyatt]

I see the fact that atheists exist as being strong evidenc that belief in God(swt) is not a simple natural method for people to rely on during hardship.

I agree with Trumble, some people have different life experiences and think different things. I would love to make the 'jump of faith' into Islam, but because I am me, I'm too stubborn and must clarify every doubt I have about it. For some others, especially those who grew up with it, it may be easier.

[Q8sobieski]

I have always seen religion as a way to explain the unexplained and to provide reasons for hardships. I simply freed myself from the strange idea that I was the center of the universe. That which happens to me, in most cases, does not need a reason. Hardships occur at random and without motive directed at me. I may be subjected to an earthquake but it is not because of my sinfulness. An earthquake doesn't happen TO ME. It happens on a continental fault line and I may or may not happen to be there at that moment in time. The earthquake happens no matter who is or isn't standing 2 miles above a bit of plate movement. To me, things simply happen. Since I am not the center of the universe, I do not need an explanation as to why something happened to me, random chance is enough.

[Wyatt]

I have always seen religion as a way to explain the unexplained and to provide reasons for hardships. I simply freed myself from the strange idea that I was the center of the universe. That which happens to me, in most cases, does not need a reason. Hardships occur at random and without motive directed at me. I may be subjected to an earthquake but it is not because of my sinfulness. An earthquake doesn't happen TO ME. It happens on a continental fault line and I may or may not happen to be there at that moment in time. The earthquake happens no matter who is or isn't standing 2 miles above a bit of plate movement. To me, things simply happen. Since I am not the center of the universe, I do not need an explanation as to why something happened to me, random chance is enough.

Exactly. It takes a lot to convince someone like me that something was thrown off its natural course to cause something to happen to me because of my actions determined by my 'free will' I may or may not actually have. Especially when something happens like that, it affects others as well. At least, I think that's what you're getting at. If I'm wrong, I apologize. :-[

[Woodrow]

I don't see why. There's no reason that just because it 'works' for some in that respect it must work for all. People are different.

Why?

I am not asking the why as a question, but rather as an exclamation. I believe you have just lit a light bulb in my mind I hope I can articulate.


True there is no reason. True people are different.

Now it seems a bit strange to me that it is true. It seems to me that if all were the same, it would be a strong argument in favor of atheism. These differences cause me to see the uniqueness as being the result of purposeful creation. Then again we are different so no expectation you will see it as I do.

[Trumble]

Now it seems a bit strange to me that it is true. It seems to me that if all were the same, it would be a strong argument in favor of atheism. These differences cause me to see the uniqueness as being the result of purposeful creation. Then again we are different so no expectation you will see it as I do.

Indeed I don't. I consider such uniformity a strong argument for exactly the opposite!

[Keltoi]

Indeed I don't. I consider such uniformity a strong argument for exactly the opposite!

If I'm correct, I believe you are saying that if all people were uniform in their thought processes it would be more convincing evidence of divine creation than our mind's free will?

[Wyatt]

If I'm correct, I believe you are saying that if all people were uniform in their thought processes it would be more convincing evidence of divine creation than our mind's free will?

That is, if we have free will in the first place. If free will is dependent on the brain even the slightest, that renders it as not an independent agent. Therefore, it's impossible for us to have free will. Our free will isn't based off our judgment because we can affect that with things such as alcohol or drugs. Our free will cannot have any connection with the brain because the moment it does, it could never be free.

Know what I mean? :D That's a different argument though.

[Trumble]

If I'm correct, I believe you are saying that if all people were uniform in their thought processes it would be more convincing evidence of divine creation than our mind's free will?

The issue is simply whether people are sufficiently alike to all find the same 'remedy' for the trials of life (i.e, here, a belief in God) satisfactory. Even if they were, there is no requirement for uniformity in thought processes to the extent free will is excluded.

No, I just think that the closer the resemblance, the greater the evidence of an original creator's 'blueprint'. None of those messy variations you get with evolution!

[Q8sobieski]

There is a strange problem with perception. Whatever we perceive, we imagine it to be perfect since we cannot perceive anything else. We assume the Earth is perfect because we cannot live anywhere else that we know of. We assume our eyes are perfect because we can see or imagine any other way of seeing. Because we cannot know what we cannot perceive, we assume what we know represents perfection. In perceived perfection, we too quickly ascribe a divine hand. But the more I study the world and other life forms, the more I see the imperfections and randomness in our lives. Frankly, I think we are darn lucky that we evolved consciousness at all!

[Ummu Sufyaan]

There is a strange problem with perception. Whatever we perceive, we imagine it to be perfect since we cannot perceive anything else. We assume the Earth is perfect because we cannot live anywhere else that we know of. We assume our eyes are perfect because we can see or imagine any other way of seeing. Because we cannot know what we cannot perceive, we assume what we know represents perfection.

well, that can go back at one who doesn't believe in a diety also, does it not? <---general question?

[Grace Seeker]

That is, if we have free will in the first place. If free will is dependent on the brain even the slightest, that renders it as not an independent agent. Therefore, it's impossible for us to have free will. Our free will isn't based off our judgment because we can affect that with things such as alcohol or drugs. Our free will cannot have any connection with the brain because the moment it does, it could never be free.

Know what I mean? :D That's a different argument though.

You understand that you didn't come up with that idea yourself, but were basically programmed by genetics and your experiences to think that way. :D

There is a strange problem with perception. Whatever we perceive, we imagine it to be perfect since we cannot perceive anything else. We assume the Earth is perfect because we cannot live anywhere else that we know of. We assume our eyes are perfect because we can see or imagine any other way of seeing. Because we cannot know what we cannot perceive, we assume what we know represents perfection.

I believe you have this nailed down perfectly...unless, of course, there does exist a spiritual world beyond the ability of your intellect to conceive it or your physical senses to perceive it.

The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

[Q8sobieski]

[QUOTE=Grace Seeker;1081038]Quote:
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14)
QUOTE]

Leave it to Saint Paul to explain why I am an agnostic but not try to make me feel bad about it, guilty, or afraid. :)

[Wyatt]

You understand that you didn't come up with that idea yourself, but were basically programmed by genetics and your experiences to think that way. :D

Exactly.

[wth1257]

okay, in islam when we Muslims are struck by some calamities or are facing hardships, etc certain supplications prescribed which have some kinda handsome reward behind it :statisfie:-[ ...so by saying these in times of harship, we hope for a reward, which kind of helps to reduce (well atleast for me) the severity of the harship...get me?

but as non muslims such rewards aren't sought, because they arent prescribed:)

so my question is: how do you non Muslims go through hardships..i mean whats your motivation to keep you patient, etc...

As they say here "You can get busy living or you can get busy dying".

I'm not religious, so I just try to depend on my abilities to work or think my way through things. I don't really think about it I guess:-[

[wth1257]

[QUOTE=Q8sobieski;1081196]

Quote:
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14)
QUOTE]

Leave it to Saint Paul to explain why I am an agnostic but not try to make me feel bad about it, guilty, or afraid. :)

I don't know why he gets such a bad rap. I always did and still do like reading his letters than any other part of the Bible.

[One Man Army]

Il try giving my view as a sikh of how im taught to deal with hardships, with out trying to get to preachy...

The hardship thing for me isnt just a simple thing as thought of reward, its a long explanation on which il have difficulties on typing. to begin il say a main aspect is living in the hukam (command or will of Allah). A sikh raises him self above pain and pleasure. these are thing we obtain due to the will of God. Il post the translations of a prayer sikhs read and bold the parts i think ul relate to this post. you need it all there in order to see the message. iv nt got time to post much, sorry for this. will attempt later:

Shalok, Ninth Mehl:
If you do not sing the Praises of the Lord, your life is rendered useless.Says Nanak, meditate, vibrate upon the Lord; immerse your mind in Him, like the fish in the water. ||1||
Why are you engrossed in sin and corruption? You are not detached, even for a moment!
Says Nanak, meditate, vibrate upon the Lord, and you shall not be caught in the noose of death. ||2||
Your youth has passed away like this, and old age has overtaken your body.
Says Nanak, meditate, vibrate upon the Lord; your life is fleeting away! ||3||
You have become old, and you do not understand that death is overtaking you.
Says Nanak, you are insane! Why do you not remember and meditate on God? ||4||
Your wealth, spouse, and all the possessions which you claim as your own
- none of these shall go along with you in the end. O Nanak, know this as true. ||5||
He is the Saving Grace of sinners, the Destroyer of fear, the Master of the masterless.
Says Nanak, realize and know Him, who is always with you. ||6||
He has given you your body and wealth, but you are not in love with Him.
Says Nanak, you are insane! Why do you now shake and tremble so helplessly? ||7||
He has given you your body, wealth, property, peace and beautiful mansions.
Says Nanak, listen, mind: why don't you remember the Lord in meditation? ||8||
The Lord is the Giver of all peace and comfort. There is no other at all.
Says Nanak, listen, mind: meditating in remembrance on Him, salvation is attained. ||9||
Remembering Him in meditation, salvation is attained; vibrate and meditate on Him, O my friend.
Says Nanak, listen, mind: your life is passing away! ||10||
Your body is made up of the five elements; you are clever and wise - know this well.
Believe it - you shall merge once again into the One, O Nanak, from whom you originated. ||11||
The Dear Lord abides in each and every heart; the Saints proclaim this as true.
Says Nanak, meditate and vibrate upon Him, and you shall cross over the terrifying world-ocean. ||12||
One who is not touched by pleasure or pain, greed, emotional attachment and egotistical pride
- says Nanak, listen, mind: he is the very image of God. ||13||
One who is beyond praise and slander, who looks upon gold and iron alike
- says Nanak, listen, mind: know that such a person is liberated. ||14||
One who is not affected by pleasure or pain, who looks upon friend and enemy alike
- says Nanak, listen, mind: know that such a person is liberated. ||15||
One who does not frighten anyone, and who is not afraid of anyone else
- says Nanak, listen, mind: call him spiritually wise. ||16||
One who has forsaken all sin and corruption, who wears the robes of neutral detachment
- says Nanak, listen, mind: good destiny is written on his forehead. ||17||
One who renounces Maya and possessiveness and is detached from everything
- says Nanak, listen, mind: God abides in his heart. ||18||
That mortal, who forsakes egotism, and realizes the Creator Lord
- says Nanak, that person is liberated; O mind, know this as true. ||19||
In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Name of the Lord is the Destroyer of fear, the Eradicator of evil-mindedness.
Night and day, O Nanak, whoever vibrates and meditates on the Lord's Name, sees all of his works brought to fruition. ||20||Vibrate with your tongue the Glorious Praises of the Lord of the Universe; with your ears, hear the Lord's Name.
Says Nanak, listen, man: you shall not have to go to the house of Death. ||21||
That mortal who renounces possessiveness, greed, emotional attachment and egotism
- says Nanak, he himself is saved, and he saves many others as well. ||22||
Like a dream and a show, so is this world, you must know.
None of this is true, O Nanak, without God. ||23||Night and day, for the sake of Maya, the mortal wanders constantly.
Among millions, O Nanak, there is scarcely anyone, who keeps the Lord in his consciousness. ||24||
As the bubbles in the water well up and disappear again,
so is the universe created; says Nanak, listen, O my friend! ||25||
The mortal does not remember the Lord, even for a moment; he is blinded by the wine of Maya.
Says Nanak, without meditating on the Lord, he is caught by the noose of Death. ||26||
If you yearn for eternal peace, then seek the Sanctuary of the Lord.
Says Nanak, listen, mind: this human body is difficult to obtain. ||27||
For the sake of Maya, the fools and ignorant people run all around.
Says Nanak, without meditating on the Lord, life passes away uselessly. ||28||
That mortal who meditates and vibrates upon the Lord night and day - know him to be the embodiment of the Lord.
There is no difference between the Lord and the humble servant of the Lord; O Nanak, know this as true. ||29||
The mortal is entangled in Maya; he has forgotten the Name of the Lord of the Universe.
Says Nanak, without meditating on the Lord, what is the use of this human life? ||30||
The mortal does not think of the Lord; he is blinded by the wine of Maya.
Says Nanak, without meditating on the Lord, he is caught in the noose of Death. ||31||
In good times, there are many companions around, but in bad times, there is no one at all.
Says Nanak, vibrate, and meditate on the Lord; He shall be your only Help and Support in the end. ||32||
Mortals wander lost and confused through countless lifetimes; their fear of death is never removed.
Says Nanak, vibrate and meditate on the Lord, and you shall dwell in the Fearless Lord. ||33||
I have tried so many things, but the pride of my mind has not been dispelled.
I am engrossed in evil-mindedness, Nanak. O God, please save me! ||34||
Childhood, youth and old age - know these as the three stages of life.
Says Nanak, without meditating on the Lord, everything is useless; you must appreciate this. ||35||
You have not done what you should have done; you are entangled in the web of greed.
Nanak, your time is past and gone; why are you crying now, you blind fool? ||36||
The mind is absorbed in Maya - it cannot escape it, my friend.
Nanak, it is like a picture painted on the wall - it cannot leave it. ||37||
The man wishes for something, but something different happens.
He plots to deceive others, O Nanak, but he places the noose around his own neck instead. ||38||
People make all sorts of efforts to find peace and pleasure, but no one tries to earn pain.
Says Nanak, listen, mind: whatever pleases God comes to pass. ||39||The world wanders around begging, but the Lord is the Giver of all.
Says Nanak, meditate in remembrance on Him, and all your works will be successful. ||40||
Why do you take such false pride in yourself? You must know that the world is just a dream.
None of this is yours; Nanak proclaims this truth. ||41||
You are so proud of your body; it shall perish in an instant, my friend.
That mortal who chants the Praises of the Lord, O Nanak, conquers the world. ||42||
That person, who meditates in remembrance on the Lord in his heart, is liberated - know this well.
There is no difference between that person and the Lord: O Nanak, accept this as the Truth. ||43||
That person, who does not feel devotion to God in his mind
- O Nanak, know that his body is like that of a pig, or a dog. ||44||
A dog never abandons the home of his master.
O Nanak, in just the same way, vibrate, and meditate on the Lord, single-mindedly, with one-pointed consciousness. ||45||
Those who make pilgrimages to sacred shrines, observe ritualistic fasts and make donations to charity while still taking pride in their minds
- O Nanak, their actions are useless, like the elephant, who takes a bath, and then rolls in the dust. ||46||
The head shakes, the feet stagger, and the eyes become dull and weak.
Says Nanak, this is your condition. And even now, you have not savored the sublime essence of the Lord. ||47||
I had looked upon the world as my own, but no one belongs to anyone else.
O Nanak, only devotional worship of the Lord is permanent; enshrine this in your mind. ||48||
The world and its affairs are totally false; know this well, my friend.
Says Nanak, it is like a wall of sand; it shall not endure. ||49||
Raam Chand passed away, as did Raawan, even though he had lots of relatives.
Says Nanak, nothing lasts forever; the world is like a dream. ||50||
People become anxious, when something unexpected happens.
This is the way of the world, O Nanak; nothing is stable or permanent. ||51||
Whatever has been created shall be destroyed; everyone shall perish, today or tomorrow.
O Nanak, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, and give up all other entanglements. ||52||
Dohraa:
My strength is exhausted, and I am in bondage; I cannot do anything at all.
Says Nanak, now, the Lord is my Support; He will help me, as He did the elephant. ||53||
My strength has been restored, and my bonds have been broken; now, I can do everything.
Nanak: everything is in Your hands, Lord; You are my Helper and Support. ||54||
My associates and companions have all deserted me; no one remains with me.
Says Nanak, in this tragedy, the Lord alone is my Support. ||55||
The Naam remains; the Holy Saints remain; the Guru, the Lord of the Universe, remains.
Says Nanak, how rare are those who chant the Guru's Mantra in this world. ||56||
I have enshrined the Lord's Name within my heart; there is nothing equal to it.
Meditating in remembrance on it, my troubles are taken away; I have received the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan. ||57||1||

This is what keeps me going in "pain" and "happiness"

[justahumane]

okay, in islam when we Muslims are struck by some calamities or are facing hardships, etc certain supplications prescribed which have some kinda handsome reward behind it :statisfie:-[ ...so by saying these in times of harship, we hope for a reward, which kind of helps to reduce (well atleast for me) the severity of the harship...get me?

but as non muslims such rewards aren't sought, because they arent prescribed:)

so my question is: how do you non Muslims go through hardships..i mean whats your motivation to keep you patient, etc...

Well, I believe that such hardship is will of GOD, and I thank GOD by looking at hardships others are facing which are definetely greater. I thankd GOD for his kindness in not making me face that grave problems. And my moral boost up. Simple.

[Azy]

so my question is: how do you non Muslims go through hardships..i mean whats your motivation to keep you patient, etc...

Is this a trick question?

I find it a little disturbing that you actually have to ask.

[NazariteofEhyah]

okay, in islam when we Muslims are struck by some calamities or are facing hardships, etc certain supplications prescribed which have some kinda handsome reward behind it :statisfie:-[ ...so by saying these in times of harship, we hope for a reward, which kind of helps to reduce (well atleast for me) the severity of the harship...get me?

but as non muslims such rewards aren't sought, because they arent prescribed:)

so my question is: how do you non Muslims go through hardships..i mean whats your motivation to keep you patient, etc...

There's a limit to the excess any non Muslim would respond to your question. Wishing that your hardships simple disapear doesn't actually work. You need to put some effort into combating your hardships, rather then speaking about them. Words are so easy for humanity, it has reduced itself to lip service. A person's hardship is his or her own's and really have nothing to do with anyone else. We handled hardship in our own way, with our faith and will premitting.

[NazariteofEhyah]

There's a limit to the excess any non Muslim would respond to your question. Wishing that your hardships simple disapear doesn't actually work. You need to put some effort into combating your hardships, rather then speaking about them. Words are so easy for humanity, it has reduced itself to lip service. A person's hardship is his or her own's and really have nothing to do with anyone else. We handled hardship in our own way, with our faith and will premitting.

Yet we ought to rejoice in our hardships.