new argument for dead can hear

[horizon]

Bukhari :: Book 5 :: Volume 59 :: Hadith 316
Narrated Hisham's father:

It was mentioned before 'Aisha that Ibn 'Umar attributed the following statement to the Prophet "The dead person is punished in the grave because of the crying and lamentation Of his family." On that, 'Aisha said, "But Allah's Apostle said, 'The dead person is punished for his crimes and sins while his family cry over him then." She added, "And this is similar to the statement of Allah's Apostle when he stood by the (edge of the) well which contained the corpses of the pagans killed at Badr, 'They hear what I say.' She added, "But he said now they know very well what I used to tell them was the truth." 'Aisha then recited: 'You cannot make the dead hear.' (30.52) and 'You cannot make those who are in their Graves, hear you.' (35.22) that is, when they had taken their places in the (Hell) Fire.

i'm really confused. i dont know arabic to look up fath ul bari. pls help me save my faith!

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

:sl:

Thread approved.

There is a valid difference of opinion amongst Ahlus Sunnah on whether the dead can hear or not. However, at the end of the day this is a matter of unseen and does not and should not impact our belief that it is forbidden to call upon other than Allaah. Whether they can hear us or not is inconsequential and irrelevant when it comes to calling upon them and making dua' to them in any way, shape, or form besides Allaah.

See this thread: http://www.islamicboard.com/tawheed-...assul-etc.html

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


Nor are alike those that are living and those that are dead. Allah can make any that He wills to hear; but thou canst not make those to hear who are (buried) in graves. [Surah Fatir 35:22]



The scholars who follow the opinion that the dead cannot hear would say that the ayaah is general, meaning that the ayaah means that generally the dead cannot hear, and all the ahadeeth that say they can hear are specific to those instances, eg the mushrikoon after the battle of badr, the hearing of the footsteps of those leaving the grave by the one in the grave etc.

Qatadah was of this view, and he was a student of Mujahid, who was a student of Abdullah ibn Abbas - the famous companion of the Prophet who explained the Qur'an.


there's alot of useful info on questions related to this with answers on this site insha Allah;

http://ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showthread.php?t=2202

[horizon]

but they say if it was ok to ask the prophet to invoke to allah as in:
Sahih Al Bukhari Volume 2, Book 17, Number 123:
Narrated Anas:
Whenever drought threatened them, 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, used to ask Al-Abbas bin 'Abdul Muttalib to invoke Allah for rain. He used to say, "O Allah! We used to ask our Prophet to invoke You for rain, and You would bless us with rain, and now we ask his uncle to invoke You for rain. O Allah ! Bless us with rain." And so it would rain.

it is ok to do the same now as the prophet can hear us and prophets pray to allah in their graves, so they still can make duas for us!

i havent really understood tawassul through righteous person(mention in shayk al-Albani's tawassul) as this means that we can ask the righteous dead as they can hear us and they pray to allah in their graves (evidence of prophets praying to Allah is in the hadiths, although we know they are in barzakh, if they can hear us then can they pray for us?!)

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[chacha_jalebi]

^ if you read that hadiths fully, it says Hadhrat Umar (ra) said before we used to ask RasoolAllah (saw) for hadiths, but now he IS DEAD, we ask through Al Abbas (ra), so that hadiths is pretty clear :D

Hadhrat Umar (Ra) didnt ask the Prophet (saw) after his death, he asked through Al Abbas (ra), so doesnt that prove that the dead cant help, Hadhrat Umar ra, would hav gone and asked RasoolAllah (saw) if they could, but he didnt

and back on topic, the Quraan clearly states the dead cant hear, but if someone wants to argue upon that, then thats their choice, if the dead can hear or they cant it dont make difference, they cant do anythin for us, its amazin how people ask the dead, to help them out, when infact a dead person is the one, who is in more need of our duas,

also there is a hadiths, where the Prophet (Saw) says to his daughter Fatima (ra) that enjoy my wealth, because i cant help you againist Allah (swt)

so when RasoolAllah (Saw) is sayin to his own daughter, that he cant help her againsit Allah (swt), how will he then help people like us who are like mashed up! on the day of Qiyamah, RasoolAllah (saw) will do shifaa for us, and thats only on the day of qiyamah, not now, also when you ask, you only ask from Allah (swt) you dont ask or call upon anyone else,

so anyone sayin you can, tell them they are doin shirk!!

[horizon]

^ if you read that hadiths fully, it says Hadhrat Umar (ra) said before we used to ask RasoolAllah (saw) for hadiths, but now he IS DEAD, we ask through Al Abbas (ra), so that hadiths is pretty clear

thanks for reminding. when are engaged in a conversation with misguided ppl, they'l make u think in their way, this was originally my argument too.however it was a shia on the other side who rejected this hadith and made me go astray in thinking about this hadeeth.
jazakallah khair.

and back on topic, the Quraan clearly states the dead cant hear, but if someone wants to argue upon that, then thats their choice, if the dead can hear or they cant it dont make difference, they cant do anythin for us, its amazin how people ask the dead, to help them out, when infact a dead person is the one, who is in more need of our duas,

that was precisely why i quoted the hadith:
Bukhari :: Book 5 :: Volume 59 :: Hadith 316
Narrated Hisham's father:

It was mentioned before 'Aisha that Ibn 'Umar attributed the following statement to the Prophet "The dead person is punished in the grave because of the crying and lamentation Of his family." On that, 'Aisha said, "But Allah's Apostle said, 'The dead person is punished for his crimes and sins while his family cry over him then." She added, "And this is similar to the statement of Allah's Apostle when he stood by the (edge of the) well which contained the corpses of the pagans killed at Badr, 'They hear what I say.' She added, "But he said now they know very well what I used to tell them was the truth." 'Aisha then recited: 'You cannot make the dead hear.' (30.52) and 'You cannot make those who are in their Graves, hear you.' (35.22) that is, when they had taken their places in the (Hell) Fire.

which means that these ayah are reffering to ppl in the hell fire .we have to be carefull in replying as this is a hadeeth from saheeh bukhari. we cant say either the hadeeth or aisha(r.a) is wrong.
it just flashed me that this hadeeth complements the quranic ayah, and that dead can hear at times as the example aisha (r.a) cites is the incident of badr(which was a miracle).

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


this might be useful insha Allah;

Intercessors with Allah in a divine way
http://www.islamic-life.com/forums/a...tural-705.html

[raa23]

Salam, looking at the hadiths could it be that the dead take their memories with them, as when Prophet (saw) says "They hear what I say", the dead in the grave will keep hearing his message about Islam and the statement "But he said now they know very well what I used to tell them was the truth." satisfies what ever they witness in the grave.

[sur]

Bukhari :: Book 5 :: Volume 59 :: Hadith 316
Narrated Hisham's father:

It was mentioned before 'Aisha that Ibn 'Umar attributed the following statement to the Prophet "The dead person is punished in the grave because of the crying and lamentation Of his family." On that, 'Aisha said, "But Allah's Apostle said, 'The dead person is punished for his crimes and sins while his family cry over him then." She added, "And this is similar to the statement of Allah's Apostle when he stood by the (edge of the) well which contained the corpses of the pagans killed at Badr, 'They hear what I say.' She added, "But he said now they know very well what I used to tell them was the truth." 'Aisha then recited: 'You cannot make the dead hear.' (30.52) and 'You cannot make those who are in their Graves, hear you.' (35.22) that is, when they had taken their places in the (Hell) Fire.

i'm really confused. i dont know arabic to look up fath ul bari. pls help me save my faith!

There's NO confusion brother...!!!



It's just the style of narration that cause misunderstanding...... If u pay attension Aisha(r.a) is correcting the 2 statements attributed to Prophet (pbuh)...


First statement attributed by Ibn Umar was that prophet said so & so(in blue), while Aisha corrected that actual statement was so & so(in Green).



Second statement attributed to Prophet was that he said so & so(in Blue) while Aisha corrected & told that actual statement was so & so(in green)

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


So Aisha(r.a) actually corrected 2 statements attributed to Prophet(pbuh).

While it can be mistaken as if she was attributing 2nd statement, she was actually mentioning a couple of attributed statements then telling correct statements for each of attributed statements.




This is clear in next hadees:-

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 317:
Narrated Ibn Umar:
The Prophet stood at the well of Badr (which contained the corpses of the pagans) and said, "Have you found true what your lord promised you?" Then he further said, "They now hear what I say." This was mentioned before 'Aisha and she said, "But the Prophet said, 'Now they know very well that what I used to tell them was the truth.' Then she recited (the Holy Verse):-- "You cannot make the dead hear... ...till the end of Verse)." (30.52)





Arabic of hadees in OP :-
4028 ـ قَالَتْ وَذَاكَ مِثْلُ قَوْلِهِ إِنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَامَ عَلَى الْقَلِيبِ وَفِيهِ قَتْلَى بَدْرٍ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ، فَقَالَ لَهُمْ مَا قَالَ إِنَّهُمْ لَيَسْمَعُونَ مَا أَقُولُ‏.‏ إِنَّمَا قَالَ ‏"‏ إِنَّهُمُ الآنَ لَيَعْلَمُونَ أَنَّ مَا كُنْتُ أَقُولُ لَهُمْ حَقٌّ ‏"‏‏.‏ ثُمَّ قَرَأَتْ ‏{‏إِنَّكَ لاَ تُسْمِعُ الْمَوْتَى‏}‏ ‏{‏وَمَا أَنْتَ بِمُسْمِعٍ مَنْ فِي الْقُبُورِ‏}‏ تَقُولُ حِينَ تَبَوَّءُوا مَقَاعِدَهُمْ مِنَ النَّارِ‏.‏

[thetruth2009]

Assalam aleykoum Sisters and brothers,


I was always wondering if Allah SWT said something about the grave punishment in the Quran ?

I know that a lot of Hadiths are talking about but what about the Quran ?


Thank you for your research.

Assalam aleykoum sisters and brothers.

[sur]

Brother Horizon i need u to respond whether u r clear now or still have any ambiguity????

Thanks

There's NO confusion brother...!!!



It's just the style of narration that cause misunderstanding...... If u pay attension Aisha(r.a) is correcting the 2 statements attributed to Prophet (pbuh)...


First statement attributed by Ibn Umar was that prophet said so & so(in blue), while Aisha corrected that actual statement was so & so(in Green).



Second statement attributed to Prophet was that he said so & so(in Blue) while Aisha corrected & told that actual statement was so & so(in green)

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


So Aisha(r.a) actually corrected 2 statements attributed to Prophet(pbuh).

While it can be mistaken as if she was attributing 2nd statement, she was actually mentioning a couple of attributed statements then telling correct statements for each of attributed statements.




This is clear in next hadees:-

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 317:
Narrated Ibn Umar:
The Prophet stood at the well of Badr (which contained the corpses of the pagans) and said, "Have you found true what your lord promised you?" Then he further said, "They now hear what I say." This was mentioned before 'Aisha and she said, "But the Prophet said, 'Now they know very well that what I used to tell them was the truth.' Then she recited (the Holy Verse):-- "You cannot make the dead hear... ...till the end of Verse)." (30.52)





Arabic of hadees in OP :-
4028 ـ قَالَتْ وَذَاكَ مِثْلُ قَوْلِهِ إِنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَامَ عَلَى الْقَلِيبِ وَفِيهِ قَتْلَى بَدْرٍ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ، فَقَالَ لَهُمْ مَا قَالَ إِنَّهُمْ لَيَسْمَعُونَ مَا أَقُولُ‏.‏ إِنَّمَا قَالَ ‏"‏ إِنَّهُمُ الآنَ لَيَعْلَمُونَ أَنَّ مَا كُنْتُ أَقُولُ لَهُمْ حَقٌّ ‏"‏‏.‏ ثُمَّ قَرَأَتْ ‏{‏إِنَّكَ لاَ تُسْمِعُ الْمَوْتَى‏}‏ ‏{‏وَمَا أَنْتَ بِمُسْمِعٍ مَنْ فِي الْقُبُورِ‏}‏ تَقُولُ حِينَ تَبَوَّءُوا مَقَاعِدَهُمْ مِنَ النَّارِ‏.‏

[thetruth2009]

Assalam aleykoum brother sur,


Thank you for your reply.

What do you mean ?


1) in the grave we are dead ?

2) or in the grave we are alive ?


The verse you are talking about is it this one bellow ?


Sourate 30

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.



52. So verily thou canst not make the dead to hear, nor canst thou make the deaf to hear the call, when they show their backs and turn away.


I do not know if the verse 52 is only about the battle of BADR, because I do not think that dead body can hear anybody( Only Allah SWT knows better ).

Do you really think that dead people they can hear us ? where did you see that in the Quran ?


Assalam aleykoum sisters and brothers, I ask Allah SWT to forgive us and to guide us, Ameen.

[Clover]

I would say the dead can hear, I mean, not through their dead body, but as a spirit. That is why I plan to build them a shrine, so that they can always know when I need them, and I need to tell them something that is important, and when I can just know they are honored by at least 1 person in the family.

[thetruth2009]

Peace upon you my brother in humanity Clover,


Thank you for your reply.

How its possible, as you know we have 2 situations for all HUMAN :

1) Alive ( BODY + SOUL )

2) dead ( separation between the SOUL and the BODY )


When we die :

1) the body is in grave, incinirate, burn in accident, eat by animals ......

2) the Soul is taken by angels back to god


I wonder how the separation between that body and that soul, can after that make an human earing others ?


Only god, knows better.

[Clover]

lol, I don't believe in angels, and I don't believe in a god. I believe the spirit becomes part of the universe. Good luck with your beliefs either way.

[thetruth2009]

Hi clover,

Can you tell me how its possible ? I can speak with my dead family and friends ?


Thank you for your explanation.

[Clover]

The body dies, the spirit is released, and becomes a part of the spirit realm, and a part of the natural realm. That is my belief, I can't prove it. If you want to dis-approve it, your welcome too.

[thetruth2009]

You mean that all world is plentuy of spirit ?

I know that there are many DJIIN in a parallel world to us


I was thinkink there are many dimentions ?

1) Human dimensions

2) DJIIn dimention

3) and As you are saying spirit dimension


Who they can not interact each other ?

[Clover]

I am having serious difficulty understanding your questions. I believe their is more then 1 realm, but I believe spirits can interact in both. That is all I can say, I don't really understand you.

[celina]

Priro to this thread I would like to state that only pious spirit/souls can come in to the world, muslims cannot contact them, we certaintly cannot talk to them.

[sur]

Assalam aleykoum brother sur,
Thank you for your reply.
What do you mean ?
1) in the grave we are dead ?
2) or in the grave we are alive ?
The verse you are talking about is it this one bellow ?
Sourate 30
In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
52. So verily thou canst not make the dead to hear, nor canst thou make the deaf to hear the call, when they show their backs and turn away.
I do not know if the verse 52 is only about the battle of BADR, because I do not think that dead body can hear anybody( Only Allah SWT knows better ).
Do you really think that dead people they can hear us ? where did you see that in the Quran ?
Assalam aleykoum sisters and brothers, I ask Allah SWT to forgive us and to guide us, Ameen.

Wa alaikum as-salaam


I did NOT say "dead can hear".


Rather i said dead canNOT hear nor do ppl in grave. One verse of Quran say "Dead cannot hear" other verse say "ppl in graves cannot hear". If you combine meaning of both, these verses stop us from praying to dead & to non-dead like martyres(shaheeds) etc.


In other words these verses stop us from seeking intercession of anyone except the living one capable of hearing us. Like prophet(pbuh) & later his uncle was asked for intercession & they prayed for rain.


Similarly on Day-of-Judgement when prophet would be alive again, he would intercede for us***. But in the time after prophet's death & before he is resurrected on The-Last-Day we cannot ask for prophet's intercession. Similarly we cannot pray to Ali(r.a) (like shias do) since he is in grave & cannot hear our prayers. Same is true for all sufis,Mary, idols etc ppl often take as intercessors or pray to .


Quran rather tell us that such intercession is a shirk:-
Q:10:18:They worship besides Allah that which neither hurteth them nor profiteth them, and they say: These are our intercessors with Allah. Say: Would ye inform Allah of (something) that He knoweth not in the heavens or in the earth? Praised be He and high exalted above all that ye associate (with Him)!


Q:32:4:.........Ye have not, beside Him, a protecting friend or mediator.(i.e, NO intercession allowed) Will ye not then remember?

Q:46:5: And who is further astray than those who, instead of Allah, pray unto such as hear not their prayer until the Day of Resurrection, and are unconscious of their prayes.

Q:16:20-21:Those unto whom they cry beside Allah created naught, but are themselves created.(They are) dead, not living. And they know not when they will be raised.

***Sahih Bukhari:1:3:98: -Narrated Abu Huraira:
I said: "O Allah's Apostle! Who will be the luckiest person, who will gain your intercession on the Day of Resurrection?" Allah's Apostle said: O Abu Huraira! "I have thought that none will ask me about it before you as I know your longing for the (learning of) Hadiths. The luckiest person who will have my intercession on the Day of Resurrection will be the one who said sincerely

Only alive can intercede:-Bukhari:5:59:358:Narrated Jubair bin Mut'im:
I heard the Prophet reciting Surat-at-Tur in Maghrib prayer, and that was at a time when belief was first planted in my heart. The Prophet while speaking about the war prisoners of Badr, said, "Were Al-Mutim bin Adi alive and interceded with me for these filthy people, I would definitely forgive them for his sake." ...........

Prophet will intercede(medite) on Day-of-Judgement:Bukhari:Volume 6, Book 60, Number 3: (Long hadees, so i am not posting, read urself)




Why should i pray to ALLAH in the name of so-&-so when HE is fully capable of hearing me even knows thoughts in my heart & when HE is more merciful than any of prophets/sahabis/sufis/walis/Mary/Jesus etc etc etc.........

Q:67:13-14:And whether ye hide your word or publish it, He certainly has (full) knowledge, of the secrets of (all) hearts. Should He not know,- He that created? and He is the One that understands the finest mysteries (and) is well-acquainted (with them).


One of posters above gave a link that says type of intercession where one prays to ALLAH in/by the name of some pious personality is considered permissible by some.......
Is there any daleel/evidence/permission by Almighty to ask HIM in/by the name of so-&-so, if NOT then that type of intercession has no ground & will be a concoction in religion.
Q:2:255:.........Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? .........

[thetruth2009]

Assalam aleykoum brother Sur,


Thank you for your reply.


I ask Allah SWT to forgive us and to guide us, Ameen.